Somewhere in the Skies - Surviving Scientology: Part 2

Episode Date: April 8, 2019

On episode 103 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, Ryan is joined once again by Joey Chait, an ex-member of the church of Scientology. In part 2 of this series, they discuss what happened after Joey was kicked out of the infamous "Sea Org" for being gay. Then Joey runs us through the incredible story of how and why he was sent to federal prison, testified under oath about what he endured in his lifetime with the church of Scientology, and what happened when he finally left completely. Then, Joey describes his interactions with the mysterious, new leader of Scientology, David Miscaviage, and his complete hijacking of the entire religion. Joey then answers listener questions to help clear up misconceptions and confirmations about the church, its followers, and what comes next for him as an ex-member speaking out against Scientology. Guest Bio: Joey Chait is a former member of the Church of Scientology and was raised in the cult since birth. He was forced into Scientology training courses at a very young age, and worked in the family business, with his Scientology family for most of his life. In 2016, Joey decided to publicly speak out against Scientology, including his story of being gay and growing up in a homophobic cult. Joey continues to speak publicly about the abusive practices of Scientology and is currently writing an autobiography about his life in the cult. Joey is happily engaged to his long-time partner in Los Angeles and continues to work with ex-Scientologists, or anyone wishing to leave a cult, especially those that are part of the LGBTQ + community. Patreon: www.patreon.com/somewhereskies To watch ROSWELL: MYSTERIES DECODED for free, CLICK HERE  Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com YouTube Channel: CLICK HERE Official Store: CLICK HERE Order Ryan's Book by CLICKING HERE Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES is part of the eOne podcast network. To learn more, CLICK HERE SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES is sponsored by HelloFresh. To receive 50% off your first order, use promo code: SOMEWHERE50 at checkout by visiting www.HelloFresh.ca Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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So please, help Somewhere in the Skies now by becoming a beautiful. patron. To contribute and to learn more, visit www.com. Backslash SomewhereSkies. Thank you for your support. And now on with the show. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in this episode of Somewhere in the Skies are solely that of the guest and host. And do not reflect those of the E1 podcast network or of our sponsors. It's spirituality, inspiration, and money, and traffic jams. It's disaster and heroism. and paperclips and knowing when to breathe. It's flirting and tasting and curiosity.

It's fast and it's slow and it's rising and falling. It's every moment, every hope, every dream, every piece of the cosmic puzzle. It's life and it's yours. Scientology. Know yourself. No life. I mean, imagine if you were a Searig member, You grew up in Scientology.

Your parents are Searge members. You don't have a driver's license. You don't have a credit card. You have no bank account. You have no credit history. Where the hell would you go? You know that if you walked out the front door and never look back, you physically could do it. But you would lose your entire family.

You would lose all of your friends. If you were married and your wife was still there, she would probably never speak to you again. You literally have been starting from scratch. And here you are, you know, a 30-year-old or 40-year-old person. I get why people don't leave because they're really scared to. This is somewhere in the skies with Ryan Sprague. I'm Ryan Sprague. Welcome to part two of our series, breaking the billion-dollar-year contract of Scientology,

with ex-member Joey Chait. In part one, we covered how Joey navigated his way up the ranks, having been born into this deeply disturbing religion. We talked about what he endured with his time in the sea. the terrifying things he witnessed and what finally prompted him to leave Scientology. But that was only half the story. If you haven't heard part one, I highly suggest listening to it before jumping in with us right now. In part two, Joy brings us on the wild ride of being sent to federal prison,

testifying under oath about what he experienced in the Church of Scientology. The unfortunate consequences when he finally decided. decided to leave the church completely, and then we dig deep into the church's mysterious new leader and answer listener questions. So, let's get to part two of breaking the billion-year contract of Scientology. This is part two of our Scientology two-part series here on someone in the skies. Joey, thank you for coming back with me, man. Absolutely.

So we sort of ended on a cliffhanger when you started. working for your father at the gallery. You had something really interesting happen that went far beyond Scientology, and you ended up in federal court. So could you tell us how this all went down? Yeah, how this kind of led to you becoming both a confit and an SP, an SP, which you also have to explain to us. Yes.

What's this whole crazy story? Yes. Okay. So my father has always been an antique dealer for his, well, for my entire life. His specialty is Asian art, so Chinese art, Japanese art, Korean, whatever it is. So he has an auction house. Well, the family has an auction house in Beverly Hills that pretty much specializes in Chinese art.

And then over the years and over the decades, every once in a while we would get a piece of ivory or something that at one point came from, that came from an animal, you know, like a carved ivory, Chinese ivory carved something or other. And then so in 2011 or 2012, the federal government was doing a investigation into wildlife smuggling. And so they came into the gallery, I think it was like 2012 or 2013 when that happened, to see if there was anything that we were doing that was illegal. And there were a couple of things that I did that were. were that were incorrect, like making a false statement on a customs form. Because we had a lot of people coming in and buying stuff from us in person, but also people

who were bidding on items in the auction that were coming from were from overseas. So what the issue was with the government, it wasn't that we were selling the items, you know, that were made from ivory and rhinoceros horn and tortoises shell and things like that. But the fact that they were being exported out of the country without the, proper permits for it. So the government was doing a investigation and then eventually after many, many years and many negotiations, I ended up pleading guilty to making a false or fictitious invoice on a customs form for an item that was part of an undercover operation from the federal department of the Fish and Wildlife Company. Wow. Okay. So basically what happened was

is that a undercover agent from Fish and Wildlife came in, and it was a small carving of the Asian goddess of mercy, and it was carved out of a rhinoceros horn. So she came in and said, oh, you know, this came from my grandmother's estate, and I want to consign it to the auction to potentially sell it. So I became the contact person. It eventually went to auction, and it was a beautiful item, so it garnered a lot of interest. But the problem was, is that they sent another undercover agent to the auction to purchase it, a separate agent. So of course, the price got shot up like crazy and it ended up selling for a little over $200,000. And then, so what happened was is that I, the buyer contacted me and he was like, okay, great, I want to pay for the item and I need you to

ship it for me. I said, great, do you want us to ship it to your address in New Jersey? or whatever the address was that we had on file. And he said, no, I want you to ship it to my client in China. And I said, no, we can't do that because it's illegal to export it without the proper permits. And I don't know the first thing about getting those permits. So then he said, okay, hold on, I'm going to call you right back. And then he calls me back the next day. And he was like, can you ship it to a client of mine in Canada?

And I said, again, I can't. But I'm happy to give you the name of a shipping company because I don't know how to do any of those permit. So he says, okay, let me call you back. So then the next day he calls me back a third time. And then he says, okay, how about this? How about you make me an invoice that says it's not made out of rhinoceros horn, but that it's made out of something else, like plastic or something. And you just ship it to me and I'll take care of it from there. And I said, okay, that was the, that was the kicker. That was it. That was the kicker. The jig is up. The jig is up. So then eventually, I play guilty to that thing, obviously, and then I went before the judge for sentencing.

And it doesn't matter what the case is, it doesn't matter what the situation is, anybody that comes in front of a judge to plead guilty to something and then get sentenced to something, the prosecutors write a sentencing brief that talks about the nature of the crime and what they believe is the proper punishment. In this case, they were asking for two and a half to three years in prison. My lawyer wrote up another sentencing brief in my defense talking about how like, you know, I was born and raised in Scientology. I didn't have a proper education. I kind of was forced and coerced to go work for my dad and a whole other series of different circumstances that ended up, you know, leading me to be standing in front of a judge. Which, by the way, you can go online and if you just Google my name, the entire sentencing brief is up online if anybody wants to read it. Oh, wow. And the thing that my lawyer talked about in the sentencing brief was is that, you know, my upbringing in Scientology and the physical abuse and the emotional abuse and, of course, the sexual abuse that I was a victim of in Scientology. And the judge, after reading both sides, he agreed with my lawyer.

And he was like, yeah, this part of Scientology played a huge part. And of course, I obviously made a huge, I made a mistake in doing it. I apologize for it. And the judge recognized that as well. So he sentenced me to a sentence way lower than what the government was asking for. He sentenced me to a sentence of 12 months and one day. And the reason why he did the one day extra is because in the federal system, if you are sentenced to a prison term for more than a year, you get time off for good behavior. So I ended up spending eight and a half months. in prison as opposed to the full year. Yeah. So that happened. And then, but of course, when that happened, I had publicly badmouthed Scientology, not just from the sentence he brief, but from what I said to the judge in front of, in front of him. Under oath. Under oath in a federal court. And I, I knew the consequences of that, because when you speak publicly about Scientology in a negative way, you become what is called a suppressive person. So a suppressive person is the label that Scientology uses on people to indicate that they are evil.

They are harmful to Scientology. And basically, anybody who wants to suppress or wants to keep other people down. In this case, they're saying that I publicly bash Scientology. And, of course, they're the most ethical group on the planet. So therefore, I attack them so then they label me a suppressive person. And then the consequences of that is that Scientologists are not allowed to talk to or be in any sort of relationship with anybody who's labeled a suppressive person. So my entire family is in Scientology. So they disconnected from me. And disconnected is the word that Scientology uses for. It's basically like a religious shunning. So they have to cut all ties. with me, all of my friends that are still in Scientology, they stopped talking to me. They blocked me on Facebook and blocked me on social media. It was really weird, too, because shortly after the sentencing, I had like a month or two before I had to self-surrender to the federal prison.

And word quite hadn't gotten out yet. My family was still talking to me. They pretended like everything was okay, but I could tell something was going on in the background. They were just sort of waiting for me to go to prison. So then I went into prison and then I did my eight, I did my eight and a half months, which by the way, was much easier than being in the C-Rourg for four years. Wow. That's saying a lot. Yeah. Yeah, it is. And then, and then so when I got out of prison, you know, and I looked at my phone for the, because you don't have internet access in prison, I looked at my phone for the first time, you know, I had like, I don't know, 20 or 30 less friends and a couple of people had emailed me and said,

you know, dear Joey, I have to disconnect from you because you, you attacked my religion. And, you know, until you confess your sins and get your shit together, basically,

I don't want to ever have communication with you anymore. Wow. So, yeah. And people who are suppressive persons, they can, if they want to, go back to Scientology and get back in their good graces,

but they have to crawl back on their hands and knees and beg for forgiveness and admit that they did everything wrong and that the church is not responsible for anything that happened to them, which is never the case. But I will never crawl back to any of those fucking people ever again. Okay. So this was the point where you basically decided to leave the church, I would have sickly... That was it, yeah. Well, for several years prior to that, I had been... I think we talked about it in the last episode where, you know, it's sort of like it took years. me to slowly kind of, you know, kind of wake up and realize that. Right. You're like looking online instead. Right. Yes. And that that all started in like 2005 or 2006 is when I started doing that. So then so by the time I had gotten to that point where I was standing in front of the judge, I had already been mentally out of Scientology for nearly a decade.

I never said anything about it out loud because I didn't want to lose my family. So then at that point, I was like, you know what? What better time is now? to like actually tell my truth and talk about how you know I grew up in this as a as a as a gay man and a homophobic religion and like you you you guys are not going to put me in the same position ever again I can talk about whatever I want I can say you know whoever I want to I can say what I want to whom ever I want and there's nobody that can stop me yeah and I'm so happy that like you are speaking out now and yes I can't imagine it's easy with a whole disconnect thing. Now, that's something the church still denies up until today. Am I correct? Yeah, which is ridiculous because Hubbard wrote it. He specifically wrote it. He said, if you encounter a suppressive person, you have to, A, handle them or B, disconnect from them. I mean, it's in black and white. He says it very clearly. And he specifically says, it's like, if you have an SP, kick him out of the church. That's it. And the church enforces this. And the church enforces that.

And the fact that they deny it or the fact that they say, oh, no, it's blown out of proportion or something like that. I hear stories every day. I still get phone calls and emails from people on a fairly regular basis. You know, kids that I went to school with and grew up with or perfect strangers who say they cannot, they want to speak out against Scientology. But they're afraid to because they know if they do, they're going to lose their family. And I'm like, listen, I feel sorry for you because I was in that exact same position. And it's one of those things that's, it's almost like if you're gay and you're coming out of the closet, it's like you have to do it yourself. Right.

I can't for you. Yep. I can't. I can't. You know, and it's like people are going to do what they're going to do. But again, I was in that same position for a very, very long time. So I know how they feel. But it's like until they actually speak out and until they actually speak their truth, they're never really going to be fully happy.

Right. Yes, they're going to lose their parents. And, you know, some of them still work for their parents like I used to do. And some of them are going to lose their jobs and their livelihood. So I get it. I get why you why you can't say anything. But yeah, that's tough. I can't even imagine for the people still suffering through that and going through that.

And you know, the whole idea of this oppressive person, Joey, is another part of this. And it's, it's something that I got to ask you about with your parents, squirmbusting. You knew I was going to ask about this. Oh my God. I cannot believe. Your parents became a little famous in Scientology and in the mainstream media for doing what's called squirrel busting. Please tell me about what this is and what it is and why it's used. So another regular English word that Hubbard took and put a completely different meaning on it. The definition of the word squirrel in Scientology is somebody that is using Scientology technology in a different way or using it without authorization.

So like let's say that, let's say that now I decide to audit you, Ryan, on some Scientology technology. That would make me a squirrel because I'm a suppressive person and I would be giving you auditing outside of the authorized area. of Scientology, or if I was giving you Scientology auditing or teaching you Scientology things that were completely wrong, that's a squirrel. So a squirrel buster is somebody like my parents who goes to people who they know are squirrels, and they try to call them out on their bullshit. So what they were doing is they were going after this guy who was a very well-known ex-scientologist and X here. Remember, his name is Marty Rathbun. Marty Rathbun was the number two guy in Scientology for a very long time. He was David Miscabbage's right-hand man, and then he ended up leaving,

oh, I don't know, maybe like 10 years ago or something like that. He ended up leaving the Church of Scientology, and he became an outspoken critic for a little while, and he ended up moving to Texas and doing his own Scientology thing basically means that he was being an auditor to other people outside the confines of the Church of Scientology. The church didn't like that. So they sent people to his house regular public Scientologist like my parents, they would send him to his house to basically just harass the shit out of him. And they had these little hats and t-shirts made that say squirrel busters on them. And they go to Marty Rathamont's house with cameras. And, you know, what are you doing, Marty? You're squirreling Scientology technology. And like, they would just literally go just to

harass them. In fact, what they did was is they bought the house or they rented the house across the street from where Marty lived. And they had cameras pointing at his house 24-7 to monitor him. They followed him places. So the church, of course, found out that he was coming to Los Angeles, which, by the way, they have Seorg members that work for several different airlines as undercover operatives so that they can keep track of people's airline itineraries. That's creepy, man. It's really creepy. So, of course, the church knew, like, oh, Marty is coming to L.A. And they went to my parents and were like, hey, Izzy and Marianne, we want you to go to L.A.X. And confront Marty.

We want you to go and we want you to harass him. We want you to try to, like, make him feel sorry for the things that he's doing. We want to try to, like, do this. And, of course, Marty carries a camera with him everywhere he goes because he knows that he's going to get harassed. So Izzy Chait came up to have a conversation and he's, you know, pleading that he's just a guy. who wants to have a straight conversation, knowing our flight reservations. He thinks it's really cool.

You think this is really cool? I'm not pleading. Do you think this is really cool? Do you think this is really cool? Who cares? I know you don't. Who cares? It's all fucking bullshit.

It's all bullshit. The bottom line is just, where are you going? The church is expanding like crazy. I'm going to Texas, as you all well know. What are you going to do that? Why do you care? I always care. You know what they always say.

You never know who the devil is unless you really know who the devil is. So what are you going to do in Texas? You know, if you're walking down the losing path, this is going to fade away. Because I see what I see. I have the winds that I, you go to flag, you see people having wins. I'm not doubting your way. You can't possibly be delivering anything like the winds that are available. Then don't tell me.

Why not? Good, good. I'm not. I'm just surprised out of all the people. You're the only one that ever fooled my husband. So the whole thing is on YouTube and the whole thing is on video. And I watched it while I was still technically in Scientology, but I was under the radar. I was flabbergasted.

I could not believe. And it still boggles my mind to this day that people in Scientology, think that this actually does anything. It just makes them look creepy and stupid. Yeah. When they go after people. There's so many videos. Of them doing this.

Yeah. And it's like, you guys, you're doing the opposite of what you should be doing. It makes the Church of Scientology and it makes Scientologists themselves look like they're insane. They need to stop doing it. But of course, Hubbard said never defend, always attack. And that's what they're going off of. They're going off of Hubbard's writings.

Because everything that he says is the truth, and there's no way you can alter it. Well, there you go. I mean, you've got to hand it to him. They're sticking to the guns. Quote, scripture. Yeah, wow. Okay. So another big question people have about Scientology is the money aspect.

I've had a lot of my listeners were interested in that. So with your experience in knowledge, how much does it, really cost in this religion. Why is it so damn expensive from like what we've heard from members? Where does all that way go, Joey? Do you have any idea? Well, yes, I do. Because I myself have donated a lot of money and my parents have donated millions of dollars to this criminal organization. So money, money for them is the thing that makes the world go around. They have these big, giant, fancy buildings, you know, that they're renovating all over the world, which of course nobody's in. empty because there's not very many Scientologists at the moment. A lot of them have left. But also,

Scientology is just, the courses and the auditing are so expensive. And the reason why, if you ask someone from Scientology, they will tell you, oh, well, you know, the reason why it's so expensive is because we need to make sure that the technology is kept exactly per Hubbard's orders and make sure that it's delivered exactly the way it's supposed to be and stuff. And I get that. But when you look at the fact that Seargue members are getting paid slave labor wages. They're getting paid 50 or 60 bucks a week. The auditing has been there. The technology has been there for decades, yet they still published, oh, look, we just discovered another book or we just discovered another lecture, and they print out these really glossy, fancy-looking books and lectures on CDs and things like that.

So the majority of the money is going to, well, first of all, let me just add this first. The courses and the auditing themselves to get from the purification rundown, which is at the very first step on the bridge, all the way up to the top of the bridge that they can deliver at the moment, which is OT8, costs about $250,000 total. That's only for the auditing and the courses that you need to take to get there. Yes, that is really, really expensive. but that does not include the donations, the voluntary donations that you have to make all the way up. For example, when you get to Flag, when you get to the spiritual headquarters that are located in Clearwater, Florida, let's say you just finished OT3 or OT4 at the big blue building and you're like, oh, I want to go to Flag to do OT5, 6, and 7. You get there and you are pounced on from people who are trying to suck money out of you.

They have so many different offshoot organizations that do various different, like, what they call social betterment activities. They have the Way to Happiness Foundation that distributes Hubbard's book called The Way to Happiness to places where there's a lot of violence. They have the World Institute of Scientology Enterprises, which uses Scientology, technology and businesses. They have the Association for Better Living in Education, which does, like, teaching poor kids. kids how to read or stuff like that. So like there's all these things that you can donate to. They have the international association of Scientologists, which is a membership that everybody is required to be a member of if you want to be a Scientologist. But they pressure you so hard to keep doing all these donations and just giving them more and more and more and more money.

Eventually, to answer your question, all of the money ends up going straight to the top to where David Miscavage is. And it gets put into a giant, basically like a giant war chest. because there's so many lawsuits against Scientology and they have to pay an enormous amount of money to lawyers and people that can protect them from attacks and things like that or what they think are so-called attacks. And people who, even the smaller churches of Scientology, they have to pay weekly fees that go all the way up to the top where David Miscavage is up at the top of the upper echelons. just to use the Scientology technology, none of it is free for them either. So the parishioner comes in, the prisoner comes in and pays them money. A portion of that has to go up. So it's sort of like it just keeps going up the chain of command.

Eventually it all ends up in David Miscavid's pocket. He gets the, he's the only searing member that gets the private jets. He's the only seer member that gets the multiple houses and condos all over the world. He's the only seer member that gets his suits. you know, that are tailored by like some of the most expensive tailors in Italy, you know, even though he's really, even though he's really short and doesn't require a lot of material. It's still expensive. Scientology has now come of age, and our footprint is massive.

Moreover, our presence will soon grow even greater with still more ideologues. But let's not forget what power Scientology is the one-on-one contact. We're in a Scientologist touches that see. chamber in every human heart where freedom beckons. So if ever there was a time to call yourself a Scientologist in the most consummate sense of the word, ascending the bridge with resolute intention, supporting ideal orgs with equal resolution, and immersing yourselves in any of our sectors or campaigns, well, that time is now. Yeah, dude, I mean, this, the whole story of David Miskavage, I read his father.

book about him and like how he came to power and took over the church and everything. That's a whole other story, which we won't get into. Yeah. But his own father. His own father says he's a piece of shit. And he's spoken against him. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah.

At age 16, David Miscavage joins the Seorg, the religious order of the church, and develops a close relationship with church founder El Ron Hubbard. In 1986, when Hubbard dies, David takes control, taking the title, chairman of the board. By this time, David's father, Ron, has also joined the Seor. Pretty quickly, Ron says he notices his son's sharp-edged, new management style. David is backstage literally tearing me apart verbally for 55 minutes, cursing, yelling, screaming at me. One night at a church event in the late 1980s where Ron is performing, he says David gives him an extended tongue-lashing with other people looking on.

When he's screaming at you, do you ever think, I change. change of this guy's diapers. No kidding. Of course I did. Have you ever met Ms. Gavage? I mean, I know you were like pretty far up there, really. Okay. Many, many, many times. Yeah. Do you enjoy true stories of the supernatural from the people who experienced it? Well, then you might like my show, Jim Harold's Campfire. Hi, I'm Jim, and we've been doing the show since 2009. And we talk about ghosts, cryptic creatures, UFOs, head scratchers, you name it. And you tune in and you might hear a story like this one. And as he was driving home, he encountered a shadow person who seemed to be dressed like a monk. I know that sounds very strange, but it was a solid black form.

And it was wearing a hooded cloak tied at the waist with the cloak up. And it had glowing red eyes. He sees this thing coming out of a really teeny. abandoned cemetery. If you haven't tuned in, I hope you'll check us out. You can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever podcasts are heard. It's Jim Herald's Campfire, and you can find it at Jim Herald.com. Thanks so much, and stay spooky.

Well, this was back in the late 90s in the early 2000s because of who my parents are. He was very, very nice to me. He was very nice to me. He's extremely, like I said before, he's extremely short. He's very intense, but he has the type of personality that when you're talking to him, he makes you feel like you're the only person in the room. So I can see how he can be very, very charming. But then years later, I learned that he has a very violent side. I mean, he physically beat the shit out of some, on multiple occasions. I mean, just beat the living shit out

of some of the other Scientology executives and stuff. And you would never know it unless you actually saw it because in person when I met him, he's, he's a very, has a very intense glare and stare to his eyes. So. Yeah. Yeah, it's really, really creepy. I've heard those testimonies from some of his higher ups about what he's done. So yeah, I can't imagine, you know, where that all is right now. But I did have a lot of listeners also ask, what are your theories about his wife? That's the other whole. mysterious thing. Like, no one's seen or heard from this woman in, like, 10 years or something?

Shelly Miscavage. Yeah. Well, my theory is that she's in the same position as anybody else in the sea organization that has gotten into severe ethics trouble. She's been kept under watch. She's probably at their secret base up there. I mean, the rumor is that she's being held up at the secret base in Twin Peaks, which is like way up in the San Bernardino Mountains here in Southern California.

They have a secret base up there. Leah, I think Leah Remini and Mike, sometime in their last season, they actually drove up there. And you can just Google it and look at pictures of it. But she's being held somewhere because she was the queen of Scientology. If Dave was there at any event that I went to, Shelley was by his side. And she was there talking to us and taking care of him. Like that was her full-time job was being his assistant. And then like Leah said many, many times she just disappeared.

She filed a missing person's report. And then the police came back and they were like, this report is unfounded. So we assume that somebody talked to her. But again, it's like people who say that, oh, you know, she's being held against her will and stuff like that. No, she's not. She is so brainwashed and she's so afraid of saying anything negative about David Miscavage or about about, about, Scientology. If the police showed up and talked to her, she would say, what the hell are you talking about? I'm not being held against my will. I'm perfectly fine. It's the same thing. Like if the FBI or some

government agency decided to do a raid on any church of Scientology where people are being held under watch, they would do the same thing. 99% of the people would be, oh, I'm not being held against my will. I'm here of my own volition. You know, this is my, religion because that's what you're trained to do. The brainwashing and the mental conditioning that you go through, you protect the church above and beyond all costs. Church first, individual, second. So I'm sure that that's where she is. I'm sure she's still completely brainwashed and she's really, really scared of ever speaking out. She doesn't think she ever has a life outside of Scientology. Which a lot of people don't. And that's why they're afraid to leave and what I'm

sure members tell them, like, what life will you have outside of this? You've never been educated outside of Scientology. You've never worked outside of the religion. Like, I assume that's terrifying. I mean, imagine if you were a Searig member working at the gold base, which is their international headquarters, it's near Palm Springs. It's supposed to be a secret base, but of course, nothing is secret at Scientology. But imagine if you were a Searagg member there, you grew up in Scientology, your

parents are Searge members, you don't have a driver's license, you don't have a credit card, you have no bank account, you have no credit history, where the hell would you go? You know that if you walked out the front door and never look back, you physically could do it, but you would lose your entire family, you would lose all of your friends. If you were married and your wife was still there, she would probably never speak to you again. You literally have been starting from scratch and here you are you know a 30 year old or 40 year old person like just basically just starting out from scratch

I get why people don't leave because they're really scared to and they're scared of losing everything their entire life would be would be a waste so I get it I get it too yes which is unfortunate that we get it oh it's horrible it's horrible all right well on on a lighter note Joey okay a pop band what oh god What is this? Scientology had their own, like, in sync, as it were. What is this all about? And you were a member, right?

Yes, yes. Yes, I was. I'm sorry, man. I'm putting you on that. No, it's fine. No, it's so. I won't make you sing. I promise. Thank you, please, because I can't sing very well. So there, there is this group called Kids on Stage for a Better World. It was this group of young Scientology kids. they could sing and dance. It was sponsored by Celebrity Center. And when I was a kid, they got together a group of like maybe 30 or 40 kids. And we sang songs and we did dances and we did performances, mostly at the Celebrity Center. But, you know, they would send us out into the community for, you know, like at the, like, they'd send us to the L.A.

County Fair or they would send us to, you know, places where they were having, like, big public gatherings. And we would sing songs that were mostly written by Scientologists. particularly about different lessons or precepts that Hubbard had wrote. So it's just another Scientology front group to try to put Scientology in the front line and make a safeguard for it, I guess. You know, they have a lot of those things. But yeah, no, it was a very embarrassing time in my life. Hey, man, we've all been there. We all have that.

We all have it. I used to make home videos in my friend's basement of us being WWF. wrestlers. So, oh, that's awesome. We've all got those things. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And unfortunately, a lot of those videos are still on YouTube, so. Oh, man. Yeah. I know what I'm doing after this. Oh, shit. Anyways, all right. Well, I won't, I won't embarrass you too much with that one. Because again, we all know what that feels like. We all know. So, I guess, um, kind of getting personal with you as an individual outside of this religion, what would you say to anyone out there who might

be considering Scientology or joining any other organization like this. What is like the one thing you would say to them? I would say run as far away as you possibly can. Especially with Scientology, because it's like you're going to spend so much money, you're going to get sucked into this cult. It's just, it's just not worth it. I get that everybody in life is always looking for something. Everybody wants the answers.

They want to know the meaning of life. They want to know, you know, like the basic questions. Like, what is the meaning of life? what happens when I die and really just questions like that like is there a heaven or hell or something like that and that's something that I think that people can just figure it out on their own if you want to study something about

Scientology do it for free on the internet that's my biggest thing with Scientology if you wanted to become a Catholic you go into any Catholic church or Protestant church or whatever you want to study the materials are there the Bible is free you don't have to pay money to them if you wanted to study about Judaism. Go to a, go to a temple or go to a synagogue and read the Torah. It's free.

Scientology charges people for salvation. That's the biggest thing that drives me crazy. I mean, you know, outside of the physical abuse and the sexual abuse and the medical malpractice and all that stuff. But no, but it's the fact that they charge for it, that should be, that should be the thing that makes you go, okay, no, this is bullshit. That should be the flag. I totally get that should be the complete, the biggest one. So yeah. So if you want to study Scientology, do it. You can do it for free. Everything is

on the internet. You can go to a library even. I'm sure they have a couple older Scientology books that are still there. Who knows? Who knows? I've seen them everywhere. Elrond's everywhere. Everywhere. I know it's crazy. Well, I mean, okay. So after going through this entire ordeal for like literally your entire

life, Joey, where do you find yourself now in terms of like spiritual beliefs. I imagine that must have been a pretty hard journey to find something new to believe in after all of this. I know. I know. Well, it's funny because it's weird because with my upbringing, I was raised Jewish, but also in Scientology, which is a really bizarre thing. My grandparents on my dad's side, they were Orthodox Jews. You know, so I had a bar mitzvah.

we used to have Passover meals every single year. We would go to temple for the high holidays every single year. I've always had to do a little bit of both. The Judaism part of my life, we just sort of did it, you know, for the sake of my grandparents and for the sake of tradition. But it's really funny, too, because when I was in prison,

I became friends with a lot of the other Jewish inmates. They're about, I don't know, maybe 10 or 12 of us. And every Friday night, we would have a Shabbat dinner, which I thought was really interesting. It was actually kind of enjoyable. So I'm not going to go running back to a particular rigid and say like, oh, I'm like a full-blown Jew now. But I think that spiritually I'm at a place where I know that I can be happy and I know that I don't have all the answers, but I'm not going to go spending any more time looking for them because I've wasted far too much time with that already. Understandable.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, we struggle with our own problems in the Catholic Church, obviously. Yeah. So it's sort of, I get that, you know, like, just do you. That's what I always tell everyone. Just do you. That's great advice.

And I think that goes from most other religions, too, as far as I answer. Absolutely. Well, I've got a couple listener questions here, Joy, before we kind of wrap things up, if you don't mind. Sure. Cool. Sure, sure. So Cameron asks, should we be afraid of Scientology, or is it a dying religion? It definitely is a dying religion.

There's no reason to be afraid of it anymore. Their numbers have dwindled down significantly. There's hardly anybody else that considers themselves a Scientologist. And thanks to the Internet, you know, because back in the 80s and even in the early 90s, you only saw Scientology for what they called themselves or what they said about themselves, but now you can actually see the truth of it. There's so many YouTube videos where people talk with ex-Scientologists and like, videos of people being chased and people doing the squirrel busting, as you said earlier. So, yeah,

no, there is nothing to be afraid of in Scientology. I mean, they might threaten to sue you or they might do this or they might do that, but they're not going to get very far anymore. Yeah, I've been threatened to be sued a few times now, so I'm okay with that at this point. Yeah, who cares. Right. So Laura asks, at what moment did you feel freedom from all this? What did that feel like for you? That's a good question. Well, when I, when, when, when, when I became public with the thing that happened in federal court, that was a very freeing moment for me because I was obviously really nervous about it because I knew what I knew what was going to happen. I knew that my family would disconnect from me and I knew that I would lose most of my former

Scientology friends. But at the same time, it's like it was sort of like a, it was sort of like turning over a new leaf for me. And it's still, it's still very scary. I'm still, you know, learning to deal with the everyday struggles of life because I never had to deal with that before. You know, on the one hand, I would always have my parents to fall back on. And I would also have Scientology to have as, you know, it was like a source to try to keep me busy, despite all of the security checking and stuff. I thought that it was the right thing to do at the time. But then once I realized it was all bullshit, speaking out about it and the thought of maybe helping other people that are in my same situation or were in my same situation,

especially people who are LGBT in Scientology or any other cult, the feeling that I might be helping by speaking out is a huge comfort to me. Awesome. Huge, huge, huge, huge, yeah. That's great. Yeah, I mean, you can't ask for more than that. To hear that, like, you can come out on the other side as an LGBTQ from something like this. Yeah.

I can imagine it's very inspiring for those maybe still trapped in it or those who, you know, even outside of Scientology, have not come out yet. So I know. That's great. It's great that you can find the positives in it, for sure. Definitely. Oh, yeah. I mean, I talked to a person who's still, I think there's a year ago or something like that. I talked to a person on Facebook who is still in Scientology, but is still in the closet as gay and still in the closet as an anti-Scientologist. And, you know, he was struggling. But, you know, he watched a YouTube video that I did about a year ago. And he said that that really helped. And he, he's, he was, he was struggling. And he watched a YouTube video that I did about it about a year ago. And he said that that that really helped. And he. And he. He. He. hopefully will come out on both aspects one of these days, but we'll see. We'll see what happens. Okay, so Shefford asks, what is up with the underground vaults in New Mexico? What is this? Oh, yes. So there's this thing that the Church of Scientology does is called Preservation of the Tech Project. And Tech means technology, like the, the writings and the scriptures and the lectures of Scientology in Hubbard. So Hubbard instructed a long time ago that all of his writing and all of his lectures be preserved in case of a nuclear holocaust or in case the world gets hit by an asteroid or comes to an end. He wants the Scientology technology to be preserved for thousands and thousands of years.

So over the last couple of decades, actually, they've been developing this preservation project where they take all of his writings that are etched on. titanium metal plates. The plates are then put inside of these titanium containers that are filled with argon gas and put into another airtight container. His lectures are etched onto like nickel and copper records and also put into these containers and then they put them in these underground vaults. There's one in New Mexico. They did a piece on the preservation project.

that aired a couple of months ago on their Scientology TV network. So they're not hiding the fact that they're doing it. I'm sure if you went to YouTube and saw it, I'm sure you would see it there. So basically they have these underground vaults. There's one in New Mexico. There's one in Arizona, I believe. But it's basically they are preparing for if the worst of the worst possibly happens. And most of humanity is wiped out. And they want to make sure that Scientology is, writings and Hubbard's words are available for someone to discover at a at some future date. And apparently they said that it can like these, these, these, these, uh, titanium cases and things can last up to 5,000 years and can, and can survive in nuclear blast. I don't know exactly what the numbers are, but that's what that is. Interesting. That's, you know, I kind of get it, man. Like, I'm, I'm old school. I, I still have all my CDs and DVDs because I'm telling you, This whole cloud thing is going to fall apart someday. I would not be surprised.

You know what I mean. I would not be surprised. I totally get what they're going for. But why couldn't we do like Shakespeare or something? Right. Or something of actual importance. Martin Luther King. Yeah.

Oh, my God. I know. It's just, yeah. But again, Scientologists are that's where a lot of the money is going to. They base all of their, all that stuff is all from donations. Oh, my God. The parishioners have to give them millions and millions. of dollars to buy the property to get the technology to etch these writings on metal titanium

plates and the staff to to live there and watch over it and store it all in the thing it's like it's crazy you know the whole donations thing i want to touch on that in a little bonus patreon episode with you if you don't mind in just a minute um cool so we're going to get to that with celebrities in scientology but i've got one more listener question for you okay sure um Kyle asks what does this symbol of Scientology represent. I've actually never thought about that. Okay. So the symbol of Scientology is the two triangles with the S through it. The S obviously stands for Scientology, and the two triangles are basic, they're basic tenets of Scientology. The first triangle is called the ARC triangle, and the ARC stands

for affinity, reality, and communication. So the ARC, A.R.C. triangle is a very basic tenet of Scientology, and it's one of those things that Hubbard has written a lot of books and things about. It's very convoluted and complicated. I'm not going to go into it, but that's what that stands for. And then the second triangle is the KRC triangle, which stands for knowledge, responsibility, and control. So the two triangles just represent, like, the two sort of basic logics or the basic tenets of Scientology with the S-Santis. through it. That's all. Yeah. Father, son, Holy Spirit for me. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Let's see here. Okay. So, as I mentioned before, I met you at Coffee for Sasquatch in L.A.

Yes. I always saw you right in a way in the corner, man. So I remember you saying that you were, you were working on a journal about all of your experiences in Scientology. So can we expect to ever see any of this? You can. I don't know when. But the, um, I don't know when. But the, uh, What I was actually writing was is that while it was in prison, I had a lot of time on my hands. I can imagine. And, yeah, so, I mean, I read a ton of books when I was in there. I exercise every single day. I lost like 22 pounds, I think, when I was in there.

I had an amazing tan, too, because I was spending most of my time out on the running track or playing tennis and stuff like that. It's weird because it sounds like I was at a retreat. It's a federal prison for you, yeah. It was federal prison. You know, they had a tennis court and a volleyball. ball cord and they had a tread treadmills and elliptical machine so it wasn't it wasn't like like orange is the new black type of prison right but what i what so i wrote a ton of journals while i was in prison talking about you know sort of like like daily daily life at a federal prison camp

but also talking about a lot of the experiences in scientology and just putting everything on paper so when you saw me at coffee for saskatch sitting in the corner i was transcribing all of the journals that I had wrote and putting them into electronic form. Wow. And I never knew, I never knew any of this about you. It's crazy. Yeah. So it's, I'm hoping that it's going to be a book. The book is written. Like, I'm just, like, the, the, the, the journal pages have all been transcribed. I am currently looking for a, uh, a lit agent and a lit manager. And hopefully we will be able to get this book published. I'm hoping. by next year, but we'll see. We'll see what happens. Awesome, man.

I know the feeling. Trust me, I've been there. Yes. That's great, though. Again, just getting the word out there and who knows who will read it and be inspired to either leave or never join. That's the big thing. Yep, exactly.

Well, in terms of, like, leaving and, you know, the struggle of having been born into this and then leaving, is there anything you miss or that you credit to Scientology as, like, a good thing in your life? anything that I miss. I do miss some of the people there. Most of the people that are still in Scientology are pretty terrible people. Some of them are not, though. Some of them are truly victims like I was.

And, you know, I miss some of the, some of the friends that I've had for, like, a very long time. One of my closest friends that, you know, we went to the same Scientology school. You know, we known each other for, like, 20 years or 20 years. years or something like that and she just like like without even a question about it as soon as someone called her and said oh joey's been uh declared a suppressive person she was like oh that's it i can't i can't talk to anymore you know so for someone to turn like that in a dime it was pretty is pretty heart-wrenching but i think that i miss those uh the the people and then to answer your other question as far as any part of scientology that's helped me a lot of the beginning stuff in science in

is Freudian psychology. Hubbard just put his own little weird spin on it. So when I was a kid, I had a really, I was very shy as a kid. And I had a little bit of a stammer, a little bit of a stutter. So I did the communications course. And the communication course, I thought was really fun. I stopped. I mean, I still stutter a little bit, but it's way better than it was before. And it got rid of a little bit of my shyness. It got rid of a little, I got, I had a little bit of stage fright. And so, In that aspect, it helped. But, you know, it's the basic things. Once you start talking about Zinu and the OT levels and things like that, that's when it's like, okay, that doesn't help anything at all. Got it. Muddies the waters. I'm very used to that in the UFO field as well, my friend. Oh, yeah. Digging through, you know, the noise to find the signal, as it were. That's kind of what we go with. Yeah. Yeah, basically.

Awesome. Well, Joey, dude, this was incredible. I can't thank you enough for. for sharing all of this with us. It's just been, like, fascinating to me to finally hear from someone who made it out on the other side and is willing to talk about it. And it's just a good person, like you said. Well, thank you. That's so sweet. Yeah, absolutely. Like you said, this religion, it seems to find a lot of negative, bad people, or it makes them into those. But you were able to learn from all of that. And again, like, it was such a pleasure meeting you, hearing your story. And if any of our listeners want to reach out to you, are you comfortable with giving any sort of like your socials or anything out? Yeah, yeah. They can find me on Facebook or they can also just email me if you want to give up my email address to them.

Yeah, absolutely. I can definitely do that. Okay, sure. Yeah, definitely. Cool. And then we're going to do a little bonus Patreon episode here to wrap things up. But before we go, Joey, thank you so, so much for joining me on somewhere in the sky. Absolutely. Absolutely. This was so much fun. Thank you so much for doing it with me. Thank you. That is it for this two-part series. But before I leave you, I just wanted to say that this wasn't an easy interview to conduct. I mean, Joey was great, and we joked around, and Joey is extremely personable and easy to talk to. But when I actually sat down and processed the interview while I was editing, I found myself feeling overwhelmed with anger and sad.

Not pity, but just sad. Joey lost his entire family from all this. He may never speak to any of them ever again. And all because of a fictional rule by a science fiction religion that says if you challenge the church, you are disconnected from it entirely. You're left alone in the world and thrown away to offend for yourself. Luckily, Joey was able to do that. But I'm sure there's just as many people out there who aren't that lucky. He was able to move on with his life, find new friends and new family. He found love and acceptance, and he came out a better person. But there are so many people still trapped in Scientology. And if any of them just happen to be listening tonight,

I urge you, take the chance, talk to someone, get out of this as quick as you can. I know it can't be easy, but there are people out there willing to talk to you, just like Joey, who can help you find family and community all over again in a brand new light. So when it comes to Scientology, we have heard tantalizing stories come out in the past decade or so amplified by ex-members like Joey coming forward to tell their stories. There have been documentaries, television shows, podcast, YouTube channels, covering every aspect of this deeply flawed religion.

And in a desperate attempt to keep this cult going, they have launched the Scientology TV network, which streams 24-7, bringing us all into Scientology like never before. It's clear that even after all of these stories, all the people destroyed mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually. Scientology is not giving up anytime soon. But I hope that after hearing Joey's story and by looking between the lines of the propaganda and promises of a better life,

people will wake up and realize that if you want spiritual freedom, it shouldn't come with a price tag. It should come from within. What frightens me even more is that I've seen similar cult-like tendencies within the UFO. Fulfield as well. Gurus and self-proclaimed leaders of enlightenment and disclosure and

completely fraudulent individuals claiming that they have all the answers to the UFO question and beyond. I've seen friends and colleagues head down a path of disorienting conspiracies and fantasy. And no matter what you tell them,

they are so deeply entrenched and indoctrinated that getting them out seems impossible. But I urge you, if someone tells you they have all the answers you seek, and you need only follow them, their message, and give them all your money, please, just run. Nobody has the answers to any of this.

They probably never will. And the UFO field is better than that. You are better than that. We are all on our own personal journey in this life. And while we may hitch a ride every now and again with others in hopes of feeling a sense of belonging or community, just remember, communities help one another. They don't harm you or ask you to disconnect from the rest of the world like Scientology does. All right, enough of the preaching.

Thank you again for listening to this series, and if you'd like to hear a very special bonus interview with Joey, be sure to join the Patreon campaign right now. We talk all about some very surprising members of Scientology you might not have known about and so much more. Your patronage literally creates somewhere in the skies and keeps us going. So please visit patreon.com slash some more to learn more and to become a patron today.

That's patreon.com slash somewhere skies. We're on Twitter at SomewhereSkies and Instagram at SomewhereSky's pod. take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review the show on Apple Podcasts, or on your Android apps, or wherever, and however you listen. All past episodes, articles, news, and contact information is at the official website, Somewhere in the skies.com. Thank you, as always, to the E1 Podcast Network. Hello Fresh, Roke Planet, and especially to you for listening.

I'll see you here next week, and remember, keep your feet on the ground, but never stop searching somewhere in the skies. Somewhere in the skies is produced by third kind productions in association with the entertainment one podcast network. To learn more, visit entertainment one podcast.com.