Somewhere in the Skies - Susan Demeter-St. Clair : UFOs and the Parapsychological

Episode Date: May 22, 2017

On episode six of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, Ryan reads a very compelling listener email from a UFO witness, who in 1980 at the age of fourteen, watched in awe as a large triangular craft hovered over her vehicle near Man Lake in Alberta, Canada. As she stared upward, she felt as though whatever controlled the craft was also controlling her thoughts, and somehow knew what she was feeling and thinking.  The notion of a psychic aspect to UFO sightings bleeds over into this week's discussion with guest, Susan Demeter-St. Clair. Ryan and Susan discuss several cases that she's researched where not only psychic and telepathic communications may have been involved, but that elements of high strangeness and the paranormal may, in fact, have more to do with the UFO question than we truly give it credit for. And how do these aspects affect the witness or experiencer during and after the event? It was a fascinating discussion of these often overlooked aspects of UFO reports that certainly raise new questions. Guest Bio: Susan Demeter-St. Clair is a professional research assistant, author, editor, and PSI experimenter. Her research interests include individual and institutional responses to anomalies and exceptional human experiences, and how they interact and enact change within groups and large institutions, such as the military. Her life took on the framework of UFO experience after an encounter in 1990, and she considers anomaly studies to be her true life’s work. She has established both ParaResearchers of Ontario, and Paranormal Studies and Inquiry Canada as online educational resources for those wishing to explore the subject of anomalous events. Susan has conducted field research on unusual light phenomena and lectured on this subject at the Ontario Institute for Studies & Education, University of Toronto. She is currently collaborating with Eric Ouellet, Ph.D. of the Canadian Forces College on new approaches to UFO studies through the lenses of scientific Parapsychology. At the time of this publication, Susan is conducting a series of independent experiments based in part on the work of the late mathematician, Dr. A.R.G Owen and psychotherapist Dr. Joel Whitton that will be the focus of a book on UFOs, social PSI, and Magick. More info can be found on her website: www.susanstclair.com - - -  New Intro & Outro Voiceover by Jaime Lamchick. Check out her work at: www.jaimelamchick.com Personal stories or guest and topics discussions can be sent to [e-mail] Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Ryan's book is available in paperback & ebook HERE Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Welcome to episode four of Somewhere in the Skies. This is going to be an interesting one. Unlike our previous three episodes, we're going to tackle an aspect of UFOs that often gets overlooked, and that's the parapsychological. Yep, we are going there, so buckle up. But first, I want to start with the following listener email I recently received.

It comes to us from Judy Thompson out of Alberta, Canada. And this event occurred to her when she was 14 years old in 1980, off of Man Late, near the town of Ashmont. Judy writes, quote, I was driving home from the small town near our acreage home one late summer afternoon. I had my learner's license, and my mom was sitting in the front passenger seat. My grandmother and younger brother were in the back. I had to slow down coming into our subdivision as the road had a sharp bend close to the lake edge. Here is when I noticed something, a black.

triangle object, some distance away, high over the edge of the lake. I stopped and rolled down the window to hear if it made any sound. I thought maybe it could be a helicopter with something hanging under it, but I cannot hear anything, and it continued to sit motionless in the sky. I remember blurting out something like, what the heck is that a UFO? I looked at it for a short time and decided to continue driving. I wanted to look more, but I was worried about cars coming up behind me. was also worried about frightening my mom and grandmother. I knew they would not be open to such things as UFOs. However, I could not stop thinking about that strange object. I continued to drive until I reached the approach to our home. I don't know why I stopped at the approach and looked over

my left shoulder and up into the sky, but I did, and there it was. It was directly over the road, and now was just a little higher than the treetops. I quickly put the car in park and shut off the engine. I felt a sense of excitement to get another chance to have a look at this thing. I got out of the car, leaving the door open, and gazed up the craft hovering above me. No one else got out of the car, and no one said a word while I was looking at it. The object indeed was not black, but a dull charcoal gray color. It made no sound and had no visible lights. It was about 30 to 40 feet across. The bottom of it had sections with some type of pattern, maybe symbols. However, I cannot remember the details very well.

I wanted to see if it had any windows or identifiable markers, so I walked around to the front of the car to the other side to get a better look. The sides, front, and top were solid with no windows, markers, or seams of any kind. As I was standing and gazing up at the craft, I felt a sense of awe and wonder, and I became aware of my thoughts being read. This may sound really weird, and I probably would leave this part out if it were not for the fact that I have come across other people's accounts of having similar experiences. I had a real feeling that this was an amazing event and that this craft was not from our world.

I wanted them, whoever they were, to know that I was greatly honored to have had the chance of a life, time to experience something so amazing. I started to think about what the occupants may look like for the first time, and I felt a sense of fear creeping in. I don't know if that was the reason, but the craft started to move, gracefully gliding like it was on ice. It moved a little forward, then made a 90-degree turn facing east towards Man Lake. It started moving slowly in this direction, but then suddenly accelerated at an unreal speed

and was gone in a split second. No sound, no smoke, no lights. It was just gone. The leaves of the tall poplar trees that surrounded the area were completely undisturbed. I never spoke to anyone about this event, not even my family. It was not until 2009,

while recovering from surgery, that I really began some serious research on this topic and have been hooked ever since. I do feel that it is important to share my story." Wow. Yes, Judy, it is important for you to share your story, and I can't thank you enough for sending that to me.

It reminds me so much of my own UFO sighting when I was 12 years old, but what intrigues me most is the feeling that she felt. Her thoughts were somehow being read, somehow being controlled by whatever she was seeing. This psychic aspect has been, like Judy mentioned, reported by many individuals. In fact, I've interviewed dozens. of people who've claimed the same thing.

They feel some sort of mental connection to whatever they're seeing and experiencing. And this goes even deeper when people report elements of high strangeness, parapsychological events, and even paranormal incidents occurring during a UFO sighting, or even after. And that's exactly what I spoke to today's guest about.

Susan Demeter St. Clair is a professional research assistant, author, editor, and sigh. Her research interests include individual and institutional responses to anomalies and exceptional human experiences, and how they interact and enact change within groups and large institutions. She has established both para-researchers of Ontario and paranormal studies in Inquiry Canada as online educational resources for those wishing to explore the subject of anomalous events. She has conducted field research on unusual light phenomena. and lectured on this subject at the Ontario Institute for Studies and Education at the University of Toronto.

She is currently collaborating with Eric Ulai, PhD of the Canadian Forces College, on new approaches to UFO studies through the lens of scientific parapsychology. Today, I speak to Susan about various cases she has personally researched through this lens of parapsychology. And just a warning, we do get a special guest by her dog. Max in this interview. So I was deeply honored by that. So without further ado, let's get to the interview with Susan Demeter, St. Clair. Okay, let's dive deep. Let's dive. Hey, guys, I am here today with Susan Demeter St. Clair. She is a UFO researcher amongst many other things, which we will talk about tonight. Thanks so much for joining us today, Susan. Well, thank you for having me on this show. I'm really excited to finally be talking to you. Yes, and, you know, we've spoken off air a few times now, and I was really drawn to your work through a mutual project we're working on, and that's Robbie Graham's UFOs reframing the debate, a new book that's out this May 2017.

And we all were given an advanced copy, and I was immediately attracted to your essay. It was something that I've been diving into lately with the whole UFO topic and that is connecting it both to the paranormal and to the psychological, the psychosocial and everything in between. So, yeah, we're definitely going to dive into some of that tonight.

But the first question I always have, Susan, for anyone who's into these topics is how did you get involved? What got you interested in specifically the UFO issue? Well, I would have to say that it was the phenomena itself that sort of initiated me into the UFO topic. When I was small, when I was a child, I had had some strange experiences, but as we all do, we kind of, you know, we put that off to childhood. And I didn't really connect them to UFOs. I connected the mordoghosts. But when I was 23, I had a close encounter with a UFO, with my brother-in-law.

And being a young adult and having another witness there, that really is what, I'd like to call it an initiation, because that was the moment that really propelled me into this sort of study and research. And I've kind of been on it off and on ever since. But I, yeah, but I would say it was being a personal experience. Prior to that, I mean, I had a basic interest like anyone else, maybe through pop culture. I had seen Close Encounters of a Third Kind, which is a great film. Yes, we will talk about that later. Yeah, E.T.

and all these fun things. So I'm, but I wasn't really into UFOs at that point. Like I didn't really know too much about the subject. And this initial experience, where did that happen, if you don't mind me asking? That happened in Toronto. At the time, I was living on a 10th floor condominium. And it was rather late at night. And I was with my husband at the time and my brother-in-law.

We were watching an Alvon. Mistress of the Dark film. I'll never, I'll never forget that because this experience was so burned into my mind. And it was getting late. And at the time I had like sliding glass doors onto this 10th floor patio. And I had two very small children with me at the time. And I was in the habit of,

of locking those doors before I went to bed every night. So as the movie was ending Elvira, I got up and it was about 1 a.m. And it was a weeknight too. I think it was like a Monday night. And I walked over to the sliding glass doors and I noticed this large red sort of light hovering out over by the nuclear plant in the Pickering Nuclear Generating Station on the north shore of Lake Ontario, which I had this clear view of. And it just struck me and I thought at first, you know, is this a reflection from the tell? television off the glass because it was just such an odd thing and I realized no it was something out there so I I went out onto the on to the patio of the balcony and I was staring at it and I realized there's something really strange about this I just it couldn't I could not comprehend what I was looking at it was so weird and I called out to my brother-in-law and fortunately at this point my my then husband was fast to sleep on the couch he had

He'd fallen asleep during the film. So he briefly recalls hearing me yell out, but didn't come out. And he, to this day, regrets that he never did. But my brother-in-law came out, and we were looking at it, and I was saying, what is this? You know, discounting things in my head. Like, this is not a plane. This doesn't have flashing lights.

I'm not hearing sounds. Like, what is this giant, glowing, red, sort of octagonish-shaped thing? and my brother-in-law said to me he was the first one who said I think that's a UFO and and it just like it kind of we both clicked and we were like kind of freaking out and holding each other and there's a goose goose flesh and and all that and I turned around to him and for whatever reason and I don't really 100% know why to this day I said they know we can see that And at that point, it sort of almost imploded in on itself into a smaller red ball of light that was pulsating. And it shot straight up into the sky.

And we were floored. And I didn't sleep that night. We sat up and we just kept talking it out and like, what was this? I remember looking at the street. There was a single car driving by. This was very late at night. And I was thinking maybe this guy saw it too. I was looking in the papers.

I didn't know who to call. But I called my dad. And my dad was a scientist and he was a pilot. And I called him up and I told him what happened. And I said, I saw this UFO. And thankfully I had him in my life because he said to me, if you say you saw a UFO, then that's what you saw. So there was no ridicule there.

And then he told me about his own UFO experience from the 1950s, which I hadn't known up until that point. Oh, wow. Yeah. So essentially your initial experience opened up the floodgates, as it were, to past experiences. That's amazing. Yes, yes. And it's, it was, it was really amazing. And, but I didn't know, I really, I wanted to find out more information.

I didn't know who to contact. And I really didn't know anything about the topic per se. So I went to the library because this is pre-internet days. And I took out some books and they were from Dr. Heineck. And I thought, okay, here's a scientist. And, you know, he sounds reasonable. And there was a little contact information at the back. So I wrote a letter to Dr. Heinek.

At this time, I had no idea he had already passed away. and unfortunately the letter was returned to me you know it came back on deliverable so the address had been incorrect at that time to Cufos and so I kept the letter and then I kind of at the time I had small children so I just kind of put it away and I just kept the so that I had the initial all that stuff because I wrote in all the details and it wasn't until several years later that I got involved with Mufon, not as an investigator with them, but just involved, like, with speaking with investigators from Mufon. And they actually did an investigation and found out that there were many, many other

sightings involving the Pickering Nuclear Station. Wow. And, yeah, and this was a few years later. This was at the very beginning. This was in the internet bulletin board days. So it was all UFOs and cyber. and stuff in the old days of the internet. Oh, yeah, I remember. Yeah, so it wasn't hard to find someone to talk to. And so they did the investigation, and that kind of wet my appetite, more or less, to start looking into things.

And I had a girlfriend of mine was at the time really interested in these spook lights that were in Ontario up near the Peterborough area of Ontario, and we just started investigating them. and I was talking to different people, Ted Phillips, the famous right hand there of Dr. Heinek. He was very helpful to me. And this is back in the 90s. And it just sort of, it started snowballing from there until I'm at this point now. So quite a large portion of my life now has been dedicated to UFOs. But that was the first experience and that was really what I would say, my initiation, into the topic of UFOs.

Wow. I got chills a little bit only because, A, the nuclear facility sightings always give me chills. But B, how much your initial experience sort of mirrors my path as well in terms of... I'd love to hear more. Yeah, definitely. I had a triangular siting at the age of 12. This was also off of basically Lake Ontario. in upstate New York. This was in the St. Lawrence River area of the Thousand Islands. I saw a triangular

formation. This is back in 1995. And very similar. You know, I didn't see any sort of blinking lights. It was very stationary over my head. It was coasting over the water towards your neck of the woods, heading north to Canada. I screamed for my father to come out. He sees the talent. of it says it's a plane. But I knew differently, you know, at that point. It was directly over my head when I first saw it, making no noise. And after that, Susan, I did the same thing. I went to the library. I started taking out books because what else do you do at, you know, where did you I was 12 years old. I didn't know about Mufon, Kufo's, any of this stuff. I wanted to report it to the police, but my dad said, no, he didn't want to get involved. I can't blame him. But yeah, it seems

like we've had very similar paths from that initial experience into what we do today, and that's researching and investigating these things. Now, I know you said you were not a official Mufon investigator, but you did personally research a very compelling case out of Cape Crocker, Ontario. And I know the witnesses would like to remain confidential, but could you, would you mind giving us a little taste of what this case was that you investigated, having to do with the idea of high strangeness? And we'll talk more about that after, but I would love to hear more about this case if you wouldn't mind sharing. Oh, absolutely.

But just very quickly before we get into that, I'm just going to, because of your own experience, I'm going to relate something to you. So get prepared to be chilled again. Ooh, okay. So I had started investigating and not really, I affiliated with any group. I more or less started my own little kind of group of people that were loosely doing their own thing. And we were researching together these spook lights. But over time, I started getting more involved and, to be honest, disheartened with some of what was going on in the greater uphology,

all the egos and everybody knows these experts. So I became quite disheartened and I ended up joining a skeptical organization which was Skeptics Canada. Wow. I was kind of being driven to that point

until a fateful day in 2001 where I was not investigating anything I was out with a friend. I didn't have a camera and I didn't even have a cell phone at that point. This is 2001 and we were walking walking along this pathway in Ajax, Ontario along the lake.

And I don't know if you can guess what's coming next, but there was a UFO experience. And it involved a diamond-shaped craft at very close range. And seeing that, it just totally radically changed my mind. And again, I couldn't be a skeptic anymore. even though these people were great and I learned a lot from them in other ways, you know, how to find frauds and sleight of hand and this kind of thing, I just, I could not be a skeptic anymore. So again, another initiation, another guide path, but when you were talking about your triangle, that just brought that right back to me.

And this was, it looked like a spaceship. It was very close range. I was quite a much older at that point, closer to my earlier 30s, and it was just, it blew me away. And at that point, I just, I couldn't go that skeptical path. I knew that there is something out there that we just don't understand. It's not of our known reality at this point. Right. Wow. Yeah, I mean, no one can blame you for taking the skeptical route.

I think, first of all, skepticism is essential in what we do. We have to remain grounded. we have to rule out every possibility. And the job of a UFO researcher is to try to find a prosaic answer. That's what we want. When there's nothing left, then that's when we truly have an unknown. So, wow, you went from believer to skeptic to believer again. I love it.

Exactly. So now back to Cape Croker, which is it is a native, an Aboriginal reservation. That's about two hours north of Toronto. It's in an area near Wyrton. I don't know if you're familiar with our groundhog, Wyrton, Willie. It's up near that area of the province. Up in near Lake Yoran.

And they had contacted me. They had had family visiting, and some of the family, they were outside and they were having this bonfire. This was during a celebration, a festival, powwow, over a weekend for that. And so there were some of the family members were out.

and one of them saw this very strange light descending from the sky. And then the other family members that were sitting around the bonfire also were drawn up to look. And what I mean by drawn up is they all heard a voice in their head simultaneously calling out to them to look, to look at these lights. and the lights descended down and they just they had this just miraculous sort of UFO experience. But it was almost as if they had had a telepathy between themselves simultaneously with whatever the light was that they were experiencing that came down and sort of joined them in their in their celebratory sort of bonfire. So to me, these are the types of cases that I am truly interested in. And when I was able to talk to the witnesses, I was able to find out some more personal details about them that was suggestive to me that this UFO was probably very symbolic and unique to their family and reservation circumstances at the time.

And I wish I could give you more details on that, but I, In this case, I have given them confidentiality, so I can't really delve too much into their personal details. But it's almost as if, and this is very Jungian, that the UFO was symbolic to their circumstances. So it had a very synchronistic sort of meaning to them, which I found very interesting. And when you, I'm sorry to interrupt, when you say Youngian, we're referring to Carl Young, correct? Yes, yes. The father of the, yes, the father of depth psychology, yeah. Okay.

And so what you're sort of saying is that whatever they were seeing was, a, parapsychological in a sense, but also related to their, almost their social anxiety at the time of what. what they were dealing with? It was related to their personal circumstances, I believe. So yes, there is a symbolism there. Much like, yeah, I didn't realize it at the time, but that first UFO that I saw was glowing red, pulsating, shaped like a stop sign. It was octagon.

But it didn't really click into my head at the time that what I was seeing was almost like this giant stop sign in the sky. And then later on, when I started thinking along these terms, I was able to kind of relate that there was some symbolism there, perhaps for me personally. Interesting. So, you know, almost what we're perceiving the shape of it, the size of it, the luminosity of it, could be directly correlated to our own perception of what we either wanted to be or something we might be dealing with in our own lives. Ah, God, this is, we will dissect this more for sure. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Wow. So that was the Cape Crocker case. And of course, for me, I always try to leave people feeling a little bit better than when they contact me. Because these are very emotional experiences for people. So not with everybody, but for some of them, it's really, it's life-altering and it's very spiritual in some senses. So I just, I tried to impart on them that they're not alone. that although I can't give them an answer to exactly what they saw, other people have these experiences all the time. Yeah. You know? And I don't care how weird they think it might sound.

I want to hear it all. I want all the details. Tell me everything because that's where, with the high strangeness especially, we may start seeing patterns or get little insights or clues that may help us, if not resolve this, certainly ask better questions. And that's kind of where I'm at. Absolutely. Yeah, better and new questions. Yes. You know, I find myself doing the same thing.

It's like, all right, if you're going to tell me what happened, just unload. Give me the raw story. Give it, give me the weirdest shit you got. Let's do this. Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Let's get real. Let's get right down with this story.

Yeah. Yeah. Susan, you use the term high strangeness. Now, for any listeners who might not be familiar with this phrase, it took me a while to really, truly find a good definition of it. Could you explain to us what you mean by high strangeness in relation to a UFO sighting or encounter where this term may have come from? I believe it was initially coined by Dr. J. Allen Heineck, who was the astronomer who was a astronomer who was a skeptic initially, a scientist, and we worked on Project Blue Book for the U.S. Air Force.

I believe it was he that first mentioned it because it's in his address to the United Nations in 1978. And basically what he meant is that these are the cases, I mean, UFOs are weird enough as they stand. But these are cases where we start getting a. into the sometimes absurd or very strange, the parapsychological aspects where people feel, like as in the Cape Croker case, where they all were hearing voices and they felt compelled at the same time to look at something. So these types of cases where there may be telepathy

or even poltergeist activity and other just strange aspects, humanoids, seeing the occupants or the pilots of these things. That's what he meant in regards to high strangeness. So not just I saw light in the sky for maybe 20 seconds and then it was gone, but things that involve very strange is seemingly out of our known reality events that occur along with the UFO. Gotcha. Okay.

And now in terms of that high strangeness, you do in your essay in this, you do in this, upcoming book, you talk about pop culture and how it plays a pretty big role in terms of UFOs. Our editor, Robbie Graham, wrote an entire book on this subject. Absolutely. Yeah, how the media, how pop culture, Hollywood in particular, can have a huge effect on the perception of the UFO phenomenon and this give and take, give and take of what's real, what's not, what did they take from the UFO phenomenon? what is the UFO phenomenon take from it?

And you actually focus on one of the benchmarks for uphology in terms of Hollywood, and that was Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Could you tell us a little bit about how this film did use this high strangeness aspect? Well, the one thing about the film that's really striking is that Spielberg actually did go to UFO experts. It was Dr. Heinek. And I believe Dr. Valet also, although he plays, like there was a character developed around Jacques Valet. I believe he was also a consultant. I may be wrong on that, but I know that Dr. Heinek for sure was a consultant on the film.

So he had at this point amassed a lot of material on experiencers and people. He was also in the film too, correct? Yes, he played a cameo in the film. That's so cool. Yes, when the mothership comes down there, there's Dr. Heine, which is super cool. Basically, it really gave audiences a taste of what a lot of these experiencers were describing. In that the lead protagonist, Roy and Jillian, the other, the mother whose child gets involved with the aliens, they start experiencing all sorts of things, synchronicity, so meaningful coincidence.

They started feeling telepathy along with the UFOs. So it really presented UFOs as something that may be physical, but also psychic. So there's a physical reality to it, but there's also this psychic reality. And as we go through the film, this sort of builds with both characters. and they're sort of the ESP and all these other neat things that are going on. So it's one of my favorite films anyway, despite that it's pro ETH, which I'm not. Oh, interesting. We'll have to touch on that. Yeah. I don't hate the ETH. I just feel after 70 years it's not really, it's got us nowhere.

And I think that the idea of aliens visiting in like the little. spaceships is kind of silly at this point. But that's my own feeling. I could be wrong. I could be wrong. But I'm kind of, I'm concentrating on other areas right now, looking for those better questions. But it was to me, the film is still a classic.

I try to watch it at least once a year. It's amazing how well it holds up, to be honest. I watched it recently. And, you know, some of the special effects, you know, it is what it. it is. But the entire, you know, narrative of this story and the, uh, the research that went into it is fascinating. And even at that time that they were thinking about high strangeness or the psychic aspect of a UFO encounter is amazing. Clearly, this aspect of the phenomenon has been going on for a while or Spielberg would not have put this into the film, uh, in my opinion. So, uh, that, you know,

while he does mix the ETH with this psychic. aspect. I do find it intriguing that you're moving away from the ETH and I know many other people who are doing the same. So yeah, wow, the film holds up very well in that term then. Absolutely. And you know, it's funny because Dr. Heineck was the main consultant for the film. And he as well in later years decided that it was more of a paranormal. thing or that there was a strong paranormal component. In fact, he even sort of mentions that in the UN address as far as high strangeness and the absurdity goes, which is why in some way skeptics or some more mainstream scientists kind of shy away because there is this absurd factor to this,

but it does exist. So Heinek was kind of with us. So we're not really reinventing the wheel here, but there were people already in the 1970s who were kind of on board with the type of thinking that we're seeing in Robbie's book. Right. And, you know, it seems like throughout the decades since Project Blue Book was terminated that the, and within the subculture of the UFO community, the ETH sort of took over. And these things that ballet were talking about and Heineck were talking about, they sort of got swept under the rug for a while. We had the entire new age and metaphysical movement happen, but there's so much more to it, I think, than either camps are giving it credit for, whether you're nuts and bolts scientific eophologist

or a metaphysical experiencer eophologist. There is that middle ground that I think is so understated, and I think it is making a comeback right now. And like you said, we're not bringing forth new concepts. We're only bringing them back into the, you know, the focus and trying to build upon them. Exactly. It's fascinating. Now, you did mention paranormal, Susan, and I want to touch on something that I found very interesting. You did use the word poltergeist. And I know we have so many connotations to this idea of a poltergeist being connected to young women in particular. This isn't

always the case. But you did research a case about a young girl who was 12 years old back in the 1950s. Would you mind touching on this case in terms of what this girl experienced with the UFO phenomenon? Oh, absolutely. And now what's interesting with her is I was able to do a, uh, a, uh, an in-depth interview with her. And this was not her first experience. She did have an experience at an even younger age. I think she's around seven or eight years old, where she saw what she perceived as little elves driving cars down the street.

Wow. Okay. Yes. And I thought that immediately, when she told me that, I jumped immediately to Jacques Valet's idea of passport in McGonio. Yes. The folklore aspect. And the folklore aspect.

But when she was 12, she had an experience, again, where she was late at night. They were living at the time in Port De Laosie here in Ontario on the south shore overlooking Lake Ontario. And she was compelled to look out the window. This was late at night. She was woken up. And she looks out the window and she sees all these lights over the lake sort of. coming in and out of the lake and and and and it's just like the sky was filled and she was so overwhelmed by this and she tried to wake up her family but they they just they wouldn't wake up

and and that in itself is something else that's very interesting and uh and she did she told her family all about this the next day and uh again the following night the same thing happened she gets up and she sees these lights, these balls of light that are all like within this area of the lake. And of course we know through other work that, you know, the lake is a hotbed for UFOs going way, way back, long before the airports. And again, she tried to wake up her family, but they just, they would not wake up to view this. And this was something very profound for her at the time. And interestingly enough, in 2007, she also saw a triangle UFO much, much later.

So you can imagine this is she had these experiences when she was a child. Right. And then later as an older adult with three other witnesses and saw this triangle. So again, someone who has had more than one very strange experience. experience, but that was an interesting case to me. And I thought, you know, it's very difficult now because, of course, you know, we're talking 1954 is when this happened. But it would have been interesting at the time to maybe look at the dynamics of what was going on in her own life and in the household and the family and see if there was anything maybe symbolic to her

in regards to the UFOs appearing all of a sudden, what was going on in her life. Was there something that she couldn't express, you know, which is what we parapsychologists think in regards to the poltergeist. It's one working hypothesis that people have these things going on, these anxieties in their lives, and they're not able to properly express them. So they become expressed in the outer world as P.K. or a poltergeist. So knocking on the walls and other strange kind of crazy stuff like that. which if you look at poltergeist cases and some of the patterns within them and patterns within UFOs, there are some similarities and commonalities in there, which I touch upon, I believe, in the essay. Yeah.

Would you care to maybe give us one or two of those connections that you think might connect UFOs with poltergeist? Well, one of the common things is the falling leaf pattern that you see that people describe. in UFO cases where they feel that they see this craft and it's doing the falling leaf pattern. This has been recorded in numbers of cases, but it's also recorded in poltergeist cases where you might have an object that, again, false, like that falling leaf kind of, I'm doing this with a hand gesture here and you can't even see me. If you can imagine a leaf gently falling down to the ground. So, I mean, that's just one thing that, I'm just one thing that,

I've noticed in regards, but there are other commonalities and sometimes they dovetail. Sometimes people will have a UFO experience and then they will go on to have poltergeist-like experiences. I know, and sometimes it's in reverse. I did a case in Ontario with a young couple who were experiencing a poltergeist activity in their home and then they both had a mass UFO experience. And this time they did call the police. And police were not too happy about that because, you know, the UFOs are not committing crimes. So you might get a sympathetic person, an officer who might, you know, have had his own UFO experience or her own UFO experience so they can relate and they'll be okay with you.

But for the vast majority, no, I do not suggest calling police. It's a little above their pay grade, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, you know. But in that case, it was almost, it was reversed. They were having apparitions. They were having, like, classic poltergeist-type stuff. And there was a lot of tension in the family at the time.

And it just sort of almost exploded into this UFO experience. Wow. Yeah. I spoke to a woman in Michigan here in the United States who had a very similar experience, a triangular sighting. This was back in the early 2000s, with her daughter. And A, they had completely different perceptions. The mother felt calm and collected,

didn't hear anything when she looked up at this, while the daughter was absolutely terrified, felt threatened, and heard an unbearably loud noise as the triangle was over their home. And then all this crazy shit started to happen in their home, a poltergeist activity. Their lights and their cable would go out all the time.

An electrician came to check out what was going on, couldn't explain it, had his own UFO sighting over the home while he was there. Wow. And said he would never come back. It absolutely terrified him. He said, I'm sorry. And this guy had been, you know,

sort of the neighborhood electrician for so long. He said, I'm sorry. I just can't. I can't do this anymore. So this all culminated into the young daughter, the mother, and another daughter, who claimed to have seen shadow people in the home, even a small being that would visit her in the night. This completely destroyed the family dynamic. They all became very introverted.

They all were having different experiences after this initial sighting. And for them, they found prayer. They prayed for whatever was going on to go away. And for the daughters it did, for the mother it still remains. But it brings me, it harkens me back to that whole idea that this high strangeness plays a huge aspect. And we're not just talking about little green men, you know, coming down, zipping around and being like, hey, guys, we're here, bye. This is having huge implications on the humans back here on the ground. Oh, absolutely. And that's the thing, too, is that, and I have spoken to more than one astronomer or astrophysicist, and the fact of the matter is that, yes, we have setai, and seti is completely different than euphology. They're looking for life out there in the cosmos, and I believe there probably is somewhere. But the UFO problem is terrestrial. It always has been. It occurs to human beings on this planet.

We have no proof that it's anywhere else. It's just, it's here. And that's why I'm trying to focus on the one tangible that we do have, and that is the human being that's experiencing this. And I will posit this to you as well. If this were little green men behind these experiences, why would prayer work? Exactly.

You know, why would they even know what prayer is? No, no. So, and that is actually not unusual. I have come across many cases and more in line with the abductees where some of them feel that they have invoked, you know, Jesus, if they're Christian, and it works. So what is that telling us about the phenomena that prayer can help, you know, put it away? You know, Or worse. Something tells me if this was an alien invasion, you know, on one family.

Prayer isn't the first shield that I think they would, they'd be like, oh, okay, we got to go. They're praying. Let's get out of here. It just doesn't make sense. It's not logical. Exactly. The idea of the UFO problem is terrestrial.

That is a term I'm going to be using for now on. So you might want to copyright that in some money off of it because it's so true. We can share. We can all share. That's what we have to do as researchers. Share your goddamn information, guys. Come on. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Stop saving it for a rainy day. Absolutely. Something else I want to actually touch on is this idea that if these UFO sightings are happening to an individual, you know, We have mass sightings, obviously. They happen all the time. But there's something to this idea that whatever is happening, whatever is in control of these anomalies in the sky, it almost feels as though they want to only be seen or only affect one person at a time.

We have so many sightings that have occurred to only one individual, no cooperating witnesses. But there seems to be something to that, Susan. And I don't know if you agree. It seems to be happening individual by individual. We're getting these gradual small disclosures, as it were. And that seems to really tie into this idea of hitting the psyche one by one. It does. And it also kind of dovetails with what we know has been documented about ghosts,

which has been documented a little bit more than the UFOs as far. as like the Society for Psychical Research and that. Where you have, you could have an apparition that is seen by maybe out of a group of five, two people will see a solid looking person. Another person might see nothing. And, you know, another person might just see a shadow or something else that's just, you know, not corroborating what the others are seeing. So you see that as well there and also the single witness as a person.

opposed to multiple witnesses. So that is possible, but we do have also UFO waves, as you know. And one of the things that I've been doing and concentrating on with my collaborator, Dr. Eric Willett, who wrote the book, Illuminations, is how looking at what is going on in the greater society at the time, how that may affect. UFOs in a global consciousness on a mass scale, such as, and we concentrated on the Belgian wave of 1990 and the concurrent Russian wave of 1989 at UFO waves in Europe at that time. And what is interesting is you have multiple witnesses. It was very well documented.

You have the Belgian Air Force cooperating with UFOologists. It was a really neat time. But if you start looking at what was going on in Europe with the fall of the Berlin Wall, with the crumbling of the Soviet Union, you can only imagine the anxieties and the concerns of all these people at that time. And you have a UFO wave over NATO headquarters. Wow. Yeah. So just think about that. If you have all these people who, was this a cry for help? Was this help me? you know pay attention look

you know I mean we don't know what I personally believe that the UFOs are symbolic and they can be very personalized but I also feel they can be symbolic and

be meaningful to a greater society you see absolutely I think and yeah that that's where the idea of a individual sighting or a mass siting how far does the impact reach, you know.

You look at the Phoenix lights back in the, you know, here in America. You look at the 1952 wave over Washington. Yes. Clearly during Cold War times. Yeah. Very interesting. Yeah, absolutely. And when you start kind of looking, concentrating away from what the craft might have

because you can have all sorts of different types of crafts. and shapes and and all sorts of different I don't know how many I've lost count how many humanoids there could possibly be these supposed pilots they're all very individual as well but if you start concentrating on the people then you might start getting more insights and again back to better questions right because this is something that euophologists don't really do. They will take down reports. They want to know what time. They want

to know what it looked like. They want to know the weather conditions. They're trying to debunk. And fine, there's a place for that. But it's really not getting us any closer to what this might be, in my opinion. We've had 70 years of that. We need something new.

Agreed. Seems like we're preaching to the choir, as it were, between us. But I think this this is the kind of thing that's going to wake people up. The idea that we're not just dealing with an alien presence from some other planet coming to Earth, to warn us of something. There's far more complex questions to be asked than that.

It is a product of the time when B. Sci-Fi movies were coming out. It is a product of even the Kenneth Arnold, the inception of the modern UFO era, the Kenneth Arnold citing, which was misconstrued to begin with with the whole flying saucer aspect. Yes. It's fascinating. It really is.

And some of them are predictive as well. Like, I mean, with the case of the Swedish rockets, people were seeing these rockets before they were truly being invented, before they were, but I mean, only by a few years. So it's like, it's almost as if the phenomena was having precarget of what was anticipating, you know, and anticipating the space race, it's almost like our belief is sort of being led or guided somehow. I think so. Yeah. Agreed. I was asked recently, you know,

do you think we'll ever know what UFOs really are? And I think I bummed out the, the interviewer, and I said, no, I think it's always going to be a step ahead of us. I don't know if it means to do that, I just think it's so far advanced and or technological, that it can do that, that it can help guide us. And maybe that's good. Maybe it'll be good for humanity eventually. I hope so. I do.

Yeah. If not, it's like the biggest Trojan horse, I can imagine. Exactly. The cosmic trickster. Because sometimes people, you know, they relate very good experiences. and they feel that they are better for this, and then others have had these horrendous experiences. It's almost as if the phenomena itself,

when stripped away of all these descriptors, is really indifferent to what's going on. Young, Carl Young, getting back to him quickly, he noted this, and he was already looking at UFOs in 1947 as well, but he noted that in his conclusions, he felt that they were psychic, manifestations through a collective consciousness. And he felt that the UFOs, back in ancient times, were the gods.

This is what people were seeing. It wasn't that they were mistaking aliens, but it was appropriate for their time. And they were seeing gods in the sky. And now, just prior to the space race, we're seeing spaceships. Right. We're being almost guided and driven to look beyond this planet. Right. It seems like, you know, at one time it was, these were gods. Now it's, these are aliens. What's next? You know, what is next? And whatever that is, it always reflects back to us as humans, whether it's gods or aliens. And that's where the whole, you know, sociological aspect of this entire thing, I think, resides. It's always a reflection of us, no matter what we believe it to be, no matter what it might be. Exactly. That's why sometimes prayer can work.

Yeah. You know, it can work for some people. It's probably won't work for someone who doesn't believe in it in prayer. But if someone has that faith, obviously there is, you know, there's evidence to show that it does work for some people. And you're so right. I think it's going to morph. Maybe not within our lifetime. I don't know. I kind of am excited to see it if it does. But I think that eventually it will be morphed into something else. Absolutely. Well, there's one other case I wanted to touch on, Susan. This happened in Woodstock, New York, which we're all familiar with. Would you turn to tell us a little bit about Scott Rogo and this amazing story about this young couple?

Oh, yes, Scott Rogo. He was one of the few parapsychologists. And he wrote a book, The Haunted Universe, that is now available again, I believe, through anomalous books. You can get some of his stuff. Unfortunately, he's no longer with us. A very tragic case with Scott Rogo. He was murdered, and it's an unsolved murder to this day. Yeah, yeah.

So a lot of high strangeness surrounds him as well. But he was a parapsychologist that really tried to take UFO seriously. And he investigated this very strange case in Woodstock. And I'll just, I'll relate a little bit of it to you. And you can tell me, like, is this a UFO encounter or is it a poltergeister? Yeah, let's hear it verbatim. I'd love to. Okay.

So, yeah, I'm going to tell you right from my essay here. In the spring of 1966, a young couple. who were renting a small house in a semi-forested area of Woodstock in New York, noticed these six greenish lights that were about six feet in diameter in a nearby field. Now, on another occasion, they saw something flying close to their car and moved towards a wooded area while making like this high-pitched sound like a vacuum cleaner droning, is how they describe it. Now, they heard these sounds many times over a period of several months.

Then one afternoon, the sound seemed to stop moving and stayed stationary over the house. And the woman looked at all the electrical equipment in the house and she couldn't find a source. It seemed to be located inside the house's walls. Now, this is something we see again in poltergeist cases. The couple verified this from outside of the house, and they could see anything at all strange, like, within the wall. But when they looked at the nearby field, they saw green lights again, and a similar, like a red one that was, I guess, like a little orb, was moving away from each other until they disappeared. So this really frightened them. It was a frightening experience.

but that was not everything that was that was going to happen. They also heard a man's voice, like a disembodied voice, sounds of someone walking around their house, again, disembodied. And they were really panicked by this point. And soon after they found like this patch of grass near their house that was flat and sort of scorched something that you would find in, you know, in a UFO landing case. And this went on for an entire summer until they just, I guess they finally had enough of it and they left. They left the location. But again, if you look at this, these are people that are having UFO experiences while at the same time having ghostly experiences. So they're kind of concurrent.

And, you know, there can be the argument made that, well, you know, correlation is not necessarily causation, just because they're happening concurrent. currently they could be two separate events and there can be that case made but you know what we have so many overwhelming cases like this like the one that you described to me that um and that's just one of who knows how many thousands or hundreds of thousands in the history of UFOs on this planet and you know it's starting to get like no you can't ignore this stuff it seems to coincide and often Absolutely. And, you know, many researchers within the UFO field or the paranormal field or, you know, the parapsychological field, we tend to edit all the time. If it doesn't fit our box of UFO or E.T.H. or Poltergeist, we will brush it aside to bring forth the, you know, the preconceived notions we might have of what this experience was. And we're all guilty of it sometimes, but I think the responsible researchers will, like you said, write down everything. And they might be connected or they might not.

Who are we to say? But I think by editing from the start, we're already doing poor research. We're already, you know, tainting the experience, as it were. Oh, exactly. And you see that, too, in some of the online. forums where you might have someone come up and post some very strange things and then you have more of these nuts and bolts, you know, UFO people that are, you know, they're poo-pooing on it or saying, now, they're making this person out to be crazy. And, you know, I understand to a point that

some of the people involved in UFOology, they want to, they feel they need to bring some sort of scientific respectability. But this is certainly not the way you're going to go about it is by discounting large reams of information that just doesn't fit into what you feel should be a good UFO case. It's the same thing with saying, you know, oh, you know, a person is a pilot or they're this, they're a better witness. Well, not necessarily. We all have eyes. We all have ears. No one person is going to be better than another person as being an experience.

And I want to certainly hear everything. And that's what I tell people when I talk to them. just tell me everything, you know, no judgment here. Because you know what, I can't judge. I know that I've had very strange experiences, so I'm certainly not going to judge anyone else. And I think we need to bring these types of experiences in cases to the four. And so that people understand this is a very complex, complex issue. And it can't just be, you know, like swept under the rug certain things because it

might make others sound a little crazy or, you know, you know what I'm saying. I think, I think, again, preaching to the choir here. And also being respectful of people's feelings and how we leave them, because, you know, these are real human beings. And what you want to believe may have or may not happen, even if you believe that you can debunk something, this person, they've taken this in as an actual experience and they're experiencing it as their task. telling it. This is how they have perceived it. So it is very real in that sense.

So you have to always be mindful of that, I think, too. Agreed. Yeah. And, you know, the beauty of science and philosophy and sociology and belief in general is that it can always change,

you know. There's the dogma to religion, but other than that, like these things are constant, evolving and changing and being built upon. So I couldn't agree more. Absolutely. In terms of researchers, Susan, are there any individuals who really inspire you or anyone

you could recommend to our listeners to check out in terms of like what you're looking at currently in the UFO study? Currently the two current, my two, I guess, main inspiration points. I'm going to be my friend, Dr. Eric Willett and my colleague, who I helped with his first book, Illuminations. I did the editing on it, and I did some of the background research. Some of his ideas on sociology in regards to UFO cases and the large waves is very inspirational to me. So I would recommend his book. It's called Illuminations, the UFO Experience as a Parasychological Event.

Wonderful book. I'm making my way through it. Yeah, and look for another book soon on the similar topic from Eric. Cool. Yeah, so there's more coming from him. My second one is not someone that is well known in North America, but is very well known in Europe, and that is Dr. Massimo Tiodorani, who I also quote and cite in the essay quite a bit. And he has a book in English. It's the first one.

He has many books in Italian, but this is the first English book. It's called the Hyper Space of Consciousness. And it's a bit of a heavy read because this is astrophysics, but it does really get into several different hypotheses that revolve around the paranormal and UFOs. And he does talk about the importance of synchronicity. He even gets into, he did some interesting work with a medium, a French medium. And he tries to give a bit of a science to spirit communication. And I just, I think it's a wonderful book.

It's, it actually, he has more than one hypothesis in here. And the hypothesis, they compete with each other, which is like, how cool is that? And yeah, he talks about how with some of these like light balls that, that show intelligence, that perhaps there is an intelligence behind them. Perhaps there are a life form that we just don't even know yet. And this is coming from a professional scientist. So, again, I would say Massimo Tieterani, the hyperspace of consciousness. Anyone who wants a basic idea, I would say anything, Jacques Valet.

You know, start back, 1969, passport to Magonia, still relevant today. anything from Dr. Heinek. I also am a big subscriber to George Hansen's theories of the trickster and the paranormal. Yes. And that is another kind of difficult read. So I would suggest picking it up and just as he does himself, go chapter, like just read one chapter

and you can go back and forth in the book and just try to soak some of this stuff in. It's really heady stuff, but it's very good. It gets you thinking. I would also like to, and this is out of print, just mention Harley Rutledge's book, Project Identification, which is for more perhaps people that want to go out into the field and study UFOs. This is a field study of and very well done scientific study of UFOs. And it also gets into the high strangeness because the scientists who went out to study objectively these.

UFOs that were occurring at the time in Piedmont in the United States in Missouri, they started having high strangeness experiences with synchronicity and possible telepathy and that with these lightballs. And to his credit, he does not edit that out. As a scientist, he gave full disclosure that, you know, there's an intelligence or there's seemingly an intelligence or something going on a little bit more than just strangely. lights that appear in a field kind of thing. Awesome. Yeah.

The rebel of scientific UFO research. Love it. Yes. Yes. So those are my recommendations right now. For anyone that's kind of interested in, you know. Great. Stretching their mind a little.

Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Well, what are you working on now, Susan? What can we expect from you in the near future? I have a couple of projects that I'm running right now. These are experiments. I have been incorporating magic, which the practice of magic with UFO manifestation.

I've been using magic sort of as a tool to, to sort of, invoke, provoke, interact with the phenomena itself. So I really can't get into too much details. I am collaborating again with Dr. Teodorani on that and one of the projects. And I have a group that's another group that's doing a project that is inspired by, I don't know if you know, the work of the Owens and the Philip phenomena, which was a ghost that they tried to create in the lab here in Toronto. Yes, I remember hearing about that, yeah.

Yeah, so I was inspired by that to take some ideas and formulate some experiments, which I am doing currently. Wow. And that hopefully will be the basis for a book, a forthcoming book on UFO's magic, synchronicity. and the phenomena. I hope so. My God, that sounds extremely compelling.

Yeah, and it's interesting because Greg Bishop is working on similar stuff, and we were working on these things, and we had not met at that point and touched base, and it's interesting that we kind of just started doing these things at the same time. So maybe the UFOs are guiding us down that path of phenomena. It's very possible, yeah. Yeah. Greg's a great guy. I couldn't think of a better person to be connected to in terms of his co-creation hypothesis of like you said, are we manifesting the phenomena somehow or are we, you know, in tandem with it? Yeah. On either end of the spectrum. It's very fascinating. Exactly. Exactly. And if it is an intelligence, is it giving us, is it giving us like sort of what we need or what we can conquer? or cope with, you know, and that is what it's pooling from.

Is it pooling from the greater collective unconsciousness or from ourselves, you know, and creating these experiences and that we can comprehend where it's something absolutely, you know, different? I kind of look at UFOs like dreams, too. There's usually a lot of symbolic content. So we're having a dream that may be silly, right? But if you examine what the dream is, then there's a symbolism and then you can kind of maybe equate it to what's going on in your waking world and go, aha, so this is my dream trying to tell me something. I kind of feel the UFOs are somewhat in line with that.

They're trying to tell us something in a way that we can maybe understand symbolically. And it's up to us to try to decipher that. It's not just spoon fed to us. whatever the phenomena is. Yes, I'm also working on a model and just different parapsychological lenses and modeling to try and maybe put some UFO cases through those models to see if, again, we can come up with some better data or maybe some better questions. So that's something more that I'm doing with Dr. Willett is we're kind of just trying to

look at different ideas and different disciplines and kind of. trying to come up with some different models that we can use to examine these cases with. I did that with a ghost case, which is the famous Morton, the Chantleham Ghost, which is the lady in black. And I came up with some interesting, by looking at the witness, focusing on her and putting her in the context of her time period. One of the last questions I want to sort of get out with you, Susan, is there's this so many years of the term U.S. which we all know stemmed from the government. It was part of Project Blue Book.

But we have this new term sort of insidiously creeping in made sort of mainstream by Hillary Clinton at one point. And that's UAP. But it's been around longer than many people think. Are you a proponent of this new terminology in terms of what we might be dealing with of UAP? Again, with UFO and UAP to me, I'm really a fan of neither of these terms. They're too descriptive in my opinion. UAP first actually came about, I believe, in the mid-90s. Again, it was a government term in a booklet put out by the Ministry of Defense in the UK.

And I think that's the first place that I saw it. And then later, I believe it was Ted Rove, Narcap, who really, really said, no, we're going to push for UAP. And it is better than UFO, but I feel that I prefer personally to, when I think about it, I think about it as phenomena. It is the phenomena. And I try to remove all the descriptors I can, because I feel that as we're layering on these descriptors, we're getting farther away from the core of whatever this may be.

So the only time I really use UFO or UAP is when I'm talking with, because they're so popular with witnesses or other researchers that like to use them, I will use that. But when I'm contemplating or even writing, I use phenomena. That's just the phenomena because we don't know. And again, they're not always flying. I was just going to say they're not always in the air. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly, exactly. And UAP might be okay for a section or small view of the UFO phenomena where you might have like these light balls. Sometimes they follow aircraft in that, which is something that NARCAP deals with is pilot sightings. So that might be something even a little bit different. So that might be appropriate for those cases. But when you look at the high strangeness and the totality, the total, the total.

of this what's going on. I think just let's call it the phenomena. Because we don't know. Right. It's there. What it is. Anyone's guess. It seems like everything we talked about tonight is anyone's guest, Susan.

But this was such an amazing conversation. My mind has been opened now more than ever. And I think that's what this is all about. where can we find out more about what you're doing? Well, I tend to put up my latest projects and things that I'm working on on my website, which is susanctlair.com. And you can find me in various social media too, which are linked through that website. So yeah, so yeah, susanthclair.com.

You'll find me. I was just reading one of your articles, the one you mentioned about the, you know, the woman in the black dress, was it? Yes, the woman in black, which may or may not, yeah, may or may not have inspired the story and that later became the movie, the popular movie.

That is a very well-documented case that was done by the Society of Psychical Research. And the actual witness at the time was a medical student. Oh. And yes, and she tried to make a science out of this, this woman in black apparition that she kept seeing, she actually tried to catch it. She devised. So, but it's very, very well documented.

And I try to dissect it a little bit and more away from the apparition and looking at the witnesses and putting them in the social context of their time period. And some interesting stuff comes about from that. Yeah. That's fascinating. Well, yeah, I highly suggest all our listeners go check out your website for various other articles related and not related to that. Susan, thank you so much for joining us today. I am sure people are going to be visiting your site very shortly and look forward to the work you did in the upcoming book, UFOs, Reframing the Debate and all of your projects. I think it's sorely needed in a field that is so dated.

needs to be shuckin up to the core. So again, thank you for joining us today. And thank you for having me. And I feel the same way about you, you know. And let's just keep collaborating and sharing and, you know, it's all good. Share your work, children. Share your work. Share, because that is the quarterstone of science is, you know, you got to share, right?

And be open to other people questioning. and saying, you know, it's all good, as long as it's done respectfully. Absolutely. All right. Thank you so much, Susan. All right. Thank you. That's it for this week's episode. Be sure to check out Susan's website, Susanstclare.com, and be on the lookout for both our essays in the upcoming anthology, UFOs, reframing the debate, edited by Robbie Graham. It will be available through White Crow Books on May 29th.

Visit White Crow Books.com. for more info. Please consider sharing, rating, and reviewing the show on iTunes, or wherever you may listen from. It truly helps the show get more exposure. And who doesn't want that, right? Also, if you want to reach me with stories and guest or topic suggestions, email Sprague at Somewhereinth skies.com. And if you're looking for some extra reading material this week, I've got a stockpile of interesting articles over at Somewhere in the skies.com. Just click on the article tab. And while you're at it, check out the book on Amazon and paperback and e-book. I got to pay them podcast bills, guys. All right. I'll be back next Monday with an all-new episode and a very special

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