Somewhere in the Skies - The Curious Case of Project Blue Book "Incident 88"

Episode Date: February 6, 2023

On episode 303 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, we are joined by Debrief contributing writer, Jazz Shaw, to discuss a mysterious incident tucked snugly into the Project Blue Book files known as "Incident 88". What was Jazz able to uncover in these files and was he able to track down one of its elusive witnesses? We then break down the 1994 Lakeshore, Michigan UFO event and a possible explanation for one of the most credible events in UFO history. Jazz then comments on the recent UFO image from Mosul, Iraq, released by Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp. We end the conversation with a tease of Jazz's next Debrief article he is working on, concerning the All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office (ARRO) and who may be working with this new office. Follow Jazz Shaw on Twitter at: https://twitter.com/JazzShaw Read "Incident 88" article at the Debrief: https://thedebrief.org/the-curious-case-of-project-blue-book-incident-88/ Read the "Lakeshore, Michigan UFO Event" article at the Debrief: https://thedebrief.org/what-was-really-seen-during-the-1994-lakeshore-michigan-ufo-sighting/ Patreon: www.patreon.com/somewhereskies Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com YouTube Channel: CLICK HERE Book your Cameo video with Ryan at: https://bit.ly/3kwz3DO Official Store: CLICK HERE Buy Somewhere in the Skies coffee! Use promo code: SOMEWHERESKIES10 to get 10% off your order: https://bit.ly/3rmXuap Order Ryan’s book in paperback, ebook, or audiobook: https://amzn.to/3PmydYC Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ryansprague51 Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Read Ryan’s Articles by CLICKING HERE Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte Copyright © 2023 Ryan Sprague. All rights reserved. Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Hey, guys, Ryan Sprague here from Somewhere in the Skies. And welcome to a live stream tonight of Somewhere in the Skies. And you know what happens when you go live. There's always technical issues. So thanks for sticking around. Thanks for your patience, guys. Unfortunately, Jazz's camera is not working.

I think it's the men in black. We'll get his opinion on that in just a sec. But we've got him by audio. So we're still going to have the amazing conversation we were going to have even without video. I've got an image of them. So we'll pop that up every now and again. So you get to see that lovely, lovely face that a lot of you haven't seen in a while. I honestly think this is the first time Jazz has been a solo guest on the show.

He has contributed to a couple of my top 10 lists and special episodes we've done. But I think this might be, and he'll correct me if I'm wrong, the first time he's officially our guests on the show. And we're going to be talking about really two, really two UFO cases that I don't honestly know that much about, but are super interesting and caught my attention. And these came in the form of two debrief articles that jazz wrote over at the debrief.org.

So we're going to be talking about the mysterious incident 88 tonight and also the 1994 Lakeshore Michigan UFO event, which I'm sure some of you are. familiar with after unsolved mysteries covered this. But we're going to get Jazz's take on both of these things and talk everything UFOs. So without further ado, let's bring him in by audio, Jazz Shaw. Welcome back to Somewhere in the Skies, my man. Thank you for having me. And you were correct. This is the first time we ever sat down one to one. You came and did a one-on-one interview with me for our network before, but I haven't been on your show by myself. That's right.

Yeah, it's been, it's been a while. I do remember that. That's when the new edition of my book had just dropped. So I have to thank you for that as well, my friend. Well, let's, you know, before we get to the two kind of major stories that I want to talk to you about these awesome articles that you dropped over at the debrief, I do want to get your thoughts since you and I haven't spoken in a while. A lot's happened in the UFO world, including the UAP report, finally.

releasing a few months late. But what were your thoughts on this drop? Was it everything you expected or nothing you expected? What do you have for us, Jazz, in terms of the UAP report release? I wasn't really all that disappointed. I've listened to you and Micah and a bunch of other people reviewing it. And, you know, I didn't find it that disappointing. Like I said, because my expectations were so low. I would like to see what went into the classified version once again. I know our mutual friend John Greenwald's working on that right now. Maybe he'll get a redacted version or something.

But yeah, they made it as anodyne and watered down as they possibly could. It was even less open to speculation. Maybe that's what they were shooting for than the 2021 report. But, you know, they went through. gave a status update. I realized it was very bureaucratic, but that's required. They have to tell the Senate what they're doing

because they're following instructions that they received from the two past two NDAAs. And they did get into an update. It was mostly just numbers, but the number of new reports I thought was encouraging because it was a big number.

And they didn't say, they definitively solved some of them, but they had good leads on a little more than half, but still more than 170, less than half, are still just unidentified. You know, they're still working on it. So I think they're digging in. It seems to show some good faith that they are accepting reports, you know, and they've added some more people, but that was very recent. So I don't know if it was really holding back or, you know, oh, they're trying to whitewash us

and they're trying to brush it under the rug. You know, they only just, they're still not at their full staffing they anticipated. Right. We were being told in the background. They've only had, they've added a few more people, but they still need more people. And they haven't had that much time. So I think next year's report, hopefully we'll have the room to have a lot more. And maybe they'll figure some stuff out.

So that'll be interesting. Also waiting to see. And maybe we will, maybe we won't. We've also heard in the background that there have already been people coming and giving whistleblower testimony to Arrow. And there's been private reports that they've given to the applicable committees where allegedly they've covered some pretty intriguing stuff. I still have not heard that they've ever said the word aliens or anything like that. But yeah, they're working on it. and I would advise anybody that really wants a deep dive.

You covered it right here on your show. Micah Hanks, our other mutual friend, just, I think not this week, but the week before, also did a big breakdown of the report and his speculations of things he's reading between the lines. And he had some very interesting ideas that I thought made a lot of sense. And that's worth your time, too. If you're interested, you want to go check that out. I can highly recommend Micah's take on all this. He did a great bonus episode as well over there about, you know, these range follower reports that we heard about in the appendix of the UAP report. So that's a whole avenue. No one's even touched yet. So I'm looking forward to that. I want to know, Jess, you know, kind of in tandem with this, the National Defense Authorization Act, the wording that was in this recent bill, in terms of, you know, giving whistleblowers and whatnot an opportunity to break non-disclosure agreements or, you know, stuff like that.

That's one thing. But the other big thing in that wording of the new bill was that they're going to be going back to 1945 and kind of retroactively looking at a lot of this stuff. Now, I asked this on Twitter the other day, and I'd like to get your thoughts on this. obviously we wanted them to go to at least 47 because of Roswell, you know, that golden nugget that we all always are searching for. But we're going back to 1945 and a lot of people think that's because of the Trinity case. But what are your thoughts? Why do you think, is that the sole reason we're specifically going back to 1945 of this? Well, I had two thoughts on that.

One of my first was Trinity, because if you go to 45, you're going to. to capture Trinity. And because, you know, a relatively recent book came out on that that was quite a big seller, at least in the euphology community. There's a lot of interest. I'm sure the people in Arrow and the people in the congressional committees are hearing about it because they do want to study, you know, get information on the classic cases. That's one thing. The other possibility which, and this is just speculation, I don't have any specifics that anybody has mentioned to me, we don't know about every case that the government knows about. That's as far as I'm concerned, that's a given.

There's lots of famous cases. There's some lesser well-known ones like we're going to discuss today. But it's almost a given. There was stuff going on that the public never heard about. They haven't made it into any of the shows on Discovery. They haven't made it into any of the podcast or anything, you know, all the literature over the years. And perhaps there's something. back in that era when everything was really just kicking into gear that they want to look at that

too and maybe it's something that we don't even know they're looking at. Like you mentioned, apparently people like Robert Salas is going to testify in front of Arrow, Mario Wood, another gentleman I had on the show recently who had a crazy missing time event at a nuclear installation is also going to be going and giving testimony to Arrow as well. I think this is great, man. I don't know about you. Why they're doing it? You know, their motives will remain unclear.

But it's proactive. And like I said earlier, almost retroactive. They want to hear from these guys who've been like shouting from the rooftops for so long. And they're finally getting that opportunity. So yeah, what do you think? Do you think anything will come of these testimony by these individuals involved with nuclear installation UFO encouragement? I think they'll gather a lot more information or confirmation of stuff that's already been out there in the wild. I also am 99.9% sure we're not going to hear about it.

Nothing that's, nothing, no testimony given by whistleblowers that's being given in skiffs is going to suddenly show up in a press release from Curson Gillibrand. You know, it's not going to be in the next public report. That stuff, they're going to keep a lot of stuff under wraps, which is extremely frustrating for the public. and me personally as well. But I just hope they give us generalizations like, yes, we're gathering more data, we've had this many more encounters, we've talked to people, just let us know that you're working on it and what's going on. And if and when the day comes, when they can hopefully pick out some bits and pieces

and go, okay, well, this stuff we've pretty much cleared that it's going to be okay. And now we can show you a couple things or tell you a couple of things that happened. And if it's anything that really they can make a legitimate case that it would impact national security or reveal sources and methods to our adversaries, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, then yeah, you're not going to hear about that. Or if you do, it'll be 70 years from now when everybody's dead. Yep. Seems to be the way it always goes. I know. Well, let's move to one of those cases that you said they might be looking at that the public doesn't really know about.

And maybe that's for a reason. For those watching the video version of this, you can see my Project Blue Book file in the background there. That's what I want to talk about with you, Next Jazz, is this article that you wrote that was called The Curious Case of Project Blue Book Incident 88. Now, this was something I had never heard of before. So why don't you kind of, if you don't mind, kind of just break this down for us. First of all, how did you hear about it? and what were you able to sort of uncover, lay the groundwork for us, if you don't mind? Well, parts of it took place pretty close to where I was living at the time.

And I was unaware for a long time that there was a, that there was a project Blue Book case about it when I came across it. Of course, it caught my interest. And when I started going through the files inside of Project Blue Book, it became one of the more weird ones that's in there. For those who have never gone browsing, I mean, I have an obsession with Project Blue Book, and my wife thinks it's like OCD or something. But there's tons of files. Some of them are really not very interesting at all. There are a couple of pages, and they tend to be ranked fairly low on the list of how, like, J.L. and Heineck analyzed all of them. You can find his notes for each one, and he classifies them of how interesting or uninteresting or, you know, could it be explained, or,

or everything like that. And some of them are ranked really low and there's no information. Project 88 has 19 records inside of it. Some of them only have like two or three. And it's also known as the Hackensack event because the main part of it that's referenced in the Blue Book files right at the beginning

took place in Hackensack, New Jersey. And it took place a long time ago, 1947. So it might fall into it. We're just talking about what they're going to look at. But it was basically just two guys. One was an Army Sergeant. One of them was a civilian buddy up in Hackensack, which is in northern New Jersey, for those who don't know. And the sergeant had the day off.

He was on leave. And he and his buddy were just out walking around, having a good time. And they were down by the shore. And all of a sudden out of nowhere, they claimed to have seen a large hovering disk about 200 yards away. from them, which that's two football fields. That's pretty close. And they dutifully went and called the police and reported it. And that got passed along to other people. And it wound up going to the Blue Book people. But unfortunately, that was pretty much the whole story. Hey, we saw a disc. What happened then? Well, it just sort of flew away. And then they were, well, okay, nothing else to do.

And they went home. And there was no more material. So there was a handful of files and that's about all they said. Now, also tacked on, and that only accounts for four or five of the 19 files that are in there in this file, in this case. There's two more at the very end, which are completely unrelated to anything to do with Hackensack. But there was a couple of them from an event that took place the same year in Illinois. and it involved somebody submitting a whole bunch of debris, for lack of a better word, that they suspected was involved with a UFO event out there. And the folks at Wright Patterson examined all of it meticulously and were able to identify

every piece of it as mundane things, and they sent a report back, although it did have the interesting caveat on the end, which I don't have the exact sentence, in front of me, but said these materials had no connection whatsoever to do with Mughal Project. That's what they called it. But Project Mogul was what

Roswell was what Roswell was later attributed to, possibly falsely. So totally unrelated. But then the bulk of the rest, like 15 other files had nothing to do with either of those things. And it took place it was a series of incidents that took place at the other end of New Jersey down south in Wildwood.

And it was a whole bunch of correspondence between this one woman who was only referred to as Mrs. Evans. And she had seen, and according to her, photographed repeatedly a whole bunch of saucers a couple of times along with her son. And they were flying around over Wildwood. And for those you don't know, that's like a little island community down on the southeastern portion of New Jersey. And she had correspondence with Wright Patterson. She had correspondence with the FBI. They were encouraging her and writing back and thanking her for all the information she was providing.

She never did get the photos back, by the way, as usual. But I know. But anyway, that roused my curiosity because I was operating under the assumption. Well, they're all put in this one case file, 88. So how are they related? And that started me on this long search. And I went way beyond Blue Book, and it took months. And I was constantly researching and trying to find the background of all these people.

How were they related somehow? Maybe there were family relations or some interaction with each other. Why was it all lumped together? And, man, I went down the rabbit hole on that one for so long. I know. I started with Mrs. Evans. Yeah, you were making. I was trying to hook Mrs. Evans up with the two guys in Hackensack in any way possible.

And so first you got to find out who she is. And I went and learned that her name wasn't really Mrs. Evans. That's how she was addressed and how it was signed all the time. But let's see, we had her for, yeah, Mrs. Ethel Evans. But it turns out making it very hard to find her initially, that wasn't her real name. She was an author, and that was her pen name. But it was also the name she used when corresponding with the FBI and with Wright-Patterson, which is weird. But her real name was Ethel Rodman, and that was her married name.

Yeah, it was Ethel Rodman. And her maiden name was Gets, G-O-E-T-Z. I'm not sure how it's pronounced. But she was a minor celebrity in New Jersey, and so I tracked her down, and I won't bore everybody with all the details. But, man, I found her one. child who curiously they named Rodman. So his name was Rodman, Rodman. I know. I'm not judging. But yeah, and I found her parents, her grandparents, just trying to make a connection. And I never could. And I finally came to the conclusion, there was no connection. But she did have a very interesting story. And her correspondence,

anybody that goes, reads the article. I linked to copies of all the Blue Book files. You can go read yourself. And during that time period, she was just seeing flying saucers and photographing flying saucers. And the government was, unless they were faking it, they were taking her very seriously. And like I said, they helped arrange a meeting with the FBI in Philadelphia, you know. So everybody was looking into this, and she seemed to be a very credible figure. But then a year later, she died, allegedly of natural causes. And so that trail went entirely cold. I tried to track down her surviving family members and was never able to get in contact with any of them that wanted to talk just to see if they had any old records over. Like I said, I really chased that and beat that dead horse into the ground.

But that's the, in a nutshell, that's most of entry 88 in the blue book files. It was actually three different entries, I apologize, that I think maybe just for lack of a better place to put them, they just all signed them into that one, you know, folder somewhere. in somebody's basement. When I went to the National Archives to ask them, you know, if they had anybody who would comment, even if there was nothing that you could do a FOIA on. And I did get a comment back. They were actually being very helpful. But the woman's helpful attitude did not translate to helpful information because she basically

responded to me, emailed me, and told me, we have no idea. We had to go look at it to know what you were talking about. and the people who filed all those things are all dead. We have no way of figuring this out for you. And I was like, okay then. So that's where the trail went cold, Ryan. Is that a good enough summary of the whole thing? Absolutely.

Really, there's like two sides to this coin. You mentioned, you know, they kind of just stuff this in with other files. And in the article, you did mention, you know, was it just location? because they both took place in New Jersey, or could there have been some sort of connection? And there was another part of the article I found pretty interesting. There was this, I think you said it was an interrogation with the FBI.

Now, was this with one of the other witnesses, or was this with the woman? No, this was with Ethel Rodman. Oh, wait, oh, no, the other woman, I apologize. I never could get her name. And boy, I was trying like, heck. And I just couldn't. Another one of the people who had been contacted by the government and who had also seen the flying saucers was her unnamed friend. And I'm doing this strictly from memory.

But the unnamed friend had been called by someone. It was either the CIA, one of the intel agencies. And she had been very alarmed by the fact that she had called. when you read all the details. So she dropped out of the picture pretty much as much as she could, but it was Ethel Rodman who kept pursuing it the whole time.

Okay. You can see the share screen I have here, right? Well, yeah, because I also, I have a muted YouTube up, so it's lagging a little bit because, oh, now I see it on yours on the actual show on streaming art. What is this document that I'm looking at here with all these redactions,

meeting with a special agent? Was this? I found this embedded in the article. Do you see this one I'm talking about here? Yeah, yeah. And that's the unnamed friend. That's the unnamed friend. Okay, I just wanted to clarify that for my own sake.

Okay. Yeah, at the top it says miss, but they did a good job of wiping out. But I went through all of them. There's a few spots in those documents because you can see how old they are. They were not redacted digitally. They were redacted with a marker.

And there's a few places where you can read through it. in a couple of spots that they don't get the whole word and it gives you hints but no i never found that she's referred to as miss and everywhere else where they talk about the the primary witness they refer to mrs ovens so okay gotcha um it's a really interesting case i do suggest people go read the article for the full story and i know it's still developing i know you're still digging um oh man i want to see because i saw in the article you had like a screenshot of um um a screenshot that said glossy image

attached, but we don't have the glossy image of this U.S. Exactly. There was a photo at one point and they had it, but they apparently ditched it and it was just glossy. So you got the page saying the image is attached and then the page with the image

is not attached. Dude, I was clicking for like 10 minutes being like, am I missing it or okay, it's not here. Hey, it's probably in Paul Hinex garage somewhere tucked in his dad's old files. It'll show up when they're both dead. It will. I know.

Well, it is. It's a fascinating, very small, obscure part of Project Blue Book that not a lot of people had ever heard of. So I got to thank you for digging, man. That's really interesting. Any last words on Incident 88 before we move on to the Lakeshore Michigan case? more of just a for everybody else who does take an interest anybody that may be just getting into research and stuff some of the old files are still worth looking at and if you have the spare time uh i'll make sure you you probably have the link right yeah yeah and and it's in that article anyway you can go and find the main page where all of the entries are for all the blue book stuff and there's a ton of them And some of them that even have a few documents, I haven't been through nearly all of them.

And it can be interesting. It can be a lot of fun. A lot of them are short, like I said, and they can be dead ends. But I still submit that those old case files are definitely worth looking at. And at least it gives you a starting point that you know is real. It's not, oh, I got a call from my boyfriend's aunt who, you know, saw a two-legged porcupine walk across the road. You know, these are things that were at least taken seriously enough. by the Blue Book people that they went and talked to people, did interviews, made records, and saved them.

A lot of them were lost. A lot of them were heavily redacted and the unredacted versions have been lost. But go ahead and look through. There's a lot of stuff there. And do just what I did. Just pick a number. There's hundreds. You know, and just go open it up and see what's inside.

Some of them have tons of documents. Yeah. Right. And, I mean, look at our mutual colleague, John Greenwald. I mean, the minute you start finding names in these things, that's another lead to start FOIAing or, you know, a reference to a certain, you know, organization. And then it just opens the floodgates.

Like, you could dig through Project Blue Book probably for the rest of human existence and still not be able to, like, uncover everything. And it's probably... If FOIA isn't always... FOIA isn't always as productive in those old cases from the Blue Book era. I've done, even on just instant 88, I filed a number of FOIAs, and in all but one instance, they wound up just being dead ends, and they were like, I'm sorry, that's too long ago. We don't, you know, and I took a couple of names that showed up in those documents and asked for, give me documents and correspondence from so-and-so, and there were no records found. because it is, you know, it's like going out almost 80 years for some of those, you know,

and not everything got saved, and I bet there was a lot of stuff that intentionally didn't get saved and disappeared. So, but at least you have a starting point with what you find in those files. And, excuse me. And again, like I said, it's worth a look. If you got the time and you're really interested in the subject, and if you're sitting here, watching Ryan's show and listening to me talk instead of doing something fun, then you're probably that interested. So go check it out. Go check it out.

Go check it out after you watch the show, guys. Exactly. Get that in there. Awesome, jazz. Well, again, great, great work on that one. I do want to move to Lakeshore, Michigan. Michigan's a place near and dear to my heart. First of all, my father, Doug Sprague, is a huge Detroit Lions fan.

why I couldn't tell you. He always has been, always will be. They're looking pretty good recently, so I'll get them that. But Michigan, I've investigated a lot of cases in Michigan personally. One is a close encounter slash abduction case. Another was a really interesting orb incident that happened over Lake Michigan. But this is probably one of the most famous cases, kind of now made famous through unsolved mysteries, but, you know, and besides the swamp gas thing back during Project Blue Book, the Lakeshore Michigan case of 1994 is Pinnacle. It's one of the most credible and well-documented UFO cases out there.

And you highlighted this in a debrief article and came up with some really interesting stuff. So again, would you mind kind of laying the groundwork for us on what the Lakeshore Michigan case is? And yeah, maybe a little about the key players involved. Yeah, sure. This is one of several that I did for the debrief and a couple other places. They're not Blue Book files. They're much later than that. And as you already pointed out, this is 1994.

So the information we have to go on is the stuff that's in the public record, things that other people have dug up, whatever has been saved. This is, we all get. It asked on different shows and interviews, you know, like, what's your favorite UFO case of all time? What do you think one's the most credible one that could sell somebody? And a lot of people immediately want to go to the Phoenix Lights, which is a great case. And Barney and Betty Hill. But at least until the show episode you're talking about, not as many people talked about the Lake Michigan-1994 event.

I'm trying to remember, yeah, I'm just scanning back through. Oh, Holland. Yeah. It's also known as the Holland event because a lot of it took place over Holland, Michigan and out over the lake. And that was that what makes it so great is the number of witnesses, large number, the fact that there were many law enforcement witnesses, multiple ones. There was a radar operator for the National Weather Service, which we'll get into a moment with you, I'm sure. And so lots of credible witnesses, but also it's not just stories. It's not just recollections.

If you go out and dig like we did when I was doing this for the debrief, there are recordings that were saved of calls with the police officers who were seeing it. Radio dispatches that were saved. You can listen to them. Interviews that were conducted with some of the primary witnesses were done on video because it was in the 90s and by that time people were videotaping things, you know. And those are out there. You can go find them. and when you go through all of them, I would say that the one you saw on TV,

like many of them, probably props it up a little bit too much in some areas, but mostly it's spot on, it's line for line. So it was, what was the date of that? I don't remember exactly. The case?

Oh, March, March 8th, 1994. March 8th, yeah. Yeah, and that evening, I don't remember who the first person was, but somebody saw some very large things with lights up in the sky, kind of moving around in a weird way, and they're like, oh, we'll call the cops. And the police at first were just like, oh, boy, we got somebody that's drunk, you know.

But then the cops started going out and looking, and they started seeing them. And they were moving, and they were heading, like, southwest. When they went over the lake, they were kind of heading towards Chicago. And by that time, you know, there had been multiple police officers. officers, we have their conversations, we have the civilian witnesses that were interviewed, all the descriptions lined up. Nobody had a really clear sight of these things, but there were many of them, and they were large. And in fact, an NWS radar operator described them as appearing on the radar screen

larger than a commercial aircraft liner. So they were pretty big. And they had weird lights that did not conform with normal FAA lighting or anything. anything like that. And yeah, they were moving around and people were just chasing them. And the chase was going from one town to the next to the next, from one police precinct to the next to the next to the next. And yeah, anybody that follows the link. If you hadn't seen it before, you can go read the article. We have some of the videos in there, some of which are just audio recordings. Sorry, Jess. Yeah, I've got, I've got, I think, two of those 911

calls to pay for the audience here. Do you think now would be a good time? I think it would be a great time. And before you do, I would just say, listen to the, not just the words, the tones of the people's voices, both law enforcement and the people who are calling. And you're going to go ahead, just play it. You'll know what I'm talking about after everybody hears it. Right, right. Yeah, this is a small one. But yeah, I think they'll definitely get a taste of it. Let's give this a try. We were just wondering, have you heard anything about these lights that are flickering up here in the, what is it, the east, east, southeast area? It's like a group.

It's like a strong crystal pipe that's way up in the sky. And we wondered if you had heard anything about it. No, I don't think. Wow, you might not have somebody to take a look. It's different. I've never seen anything like it. I don't know. It's strange.

Southeast is way up and it's just like a circle of a lot of different lights. This, Judge? Yeah, this is a non-emergency, so feel free to cut me off if something comes in. And I still kind of silly calling, but my son and sister that I call. Is there any Air Force airplanes or helicopters flying around in Allegan or Ottawa County tonight? Hello, we had reports out Stratford Way in that area of life and they're checking it out. Stratford Way? Yep.

Now, where would that be? We're right on Ottegan, on the county line. Yeah, it's down in that area. It is in Holland City. Pardon? Right down, it's by Holland City. Okay, because he saw them heading southeast of the county line of Ottawa and Allegan, probably right on the Kent County line, I would imagine.

Okay, yeah, we've got them checking it out. They say it's something to do with radio towers down in the area. Why don't you tell them what you saw? Okay, how is that a real high hill? Mm-hmm. Right on the county line. there and it was like at a 45 degree angle to the ground. Uh-huh.

There was like probably four or five lights, and they were all flashing right in a row from the top, all right down to the bottom. And it was sitting there for a while, and then it leveled off, and then it moved southeast. It was up in the air quite a bit. Okay, yeah, we've gotten off the area

checking on it right now. Okay. It took off real fast. Okay, yeah, we'll let them know. All right. Okay, thank you. Bye. Bye.

I mean, you can hear how excited and scared these people are. Yeah. And they mentioned the radio tower. That's worth pointing out because I know we're not going to take up your whole show play in every one of the clips from this. But when you go and listen to the conversation between the one police officer and the National Weather Service radar operator, in the beginning, when they're first talking before anything's been confirmed, they're, they start, they're joking. like maybe there's some drunk people out tonight. And then they go, well, they just put those new towers up.

And they got some pretty bright lights on them. That's probably what everybody's seeing. And they're both agreeing with that. They're both agreeing with that until they see it themselves. And then it shows up on the radar. And then the whole conversation changes. And the weather service operator, the radar operator reported them. He used the word blinking.

They would change altitude. And he was watching it and tracking it. And actually hand-referrous. rotating the direction of the radar dish to be able to track them and find them. And some of them blinked at thousands of feet, like in one second. Does that sound familiar to anybody? Sounds like the tick-tac, doesn't it? Yeah.

Wow. Oh, interesting. Ooh, that just gave me chills. Well, hey, you know what? While we're on it, I've got the audio, some of the audio from the meteorologist, you know, that was dealing with a radar. and why don't we go ahead and play that? I think some of what you just said might even be in it. This is a shorter clip and then we'll come back on the other side and

let's do that. If you give me one second, I just want to go refill my water glass. Absolutely, absolutely. I'll go ahead and play it. Yep. And we'll be back, guys. Listen to this. This is Jack Bouchon, the meteorologist and one of the police officers.

About between 7 and 12,000 C. Oh, this is strange. This is weird. Yeah, I don't know if it's some kind of energy or the radar is taking up something. I wish we had a picture of this. That could be by Benton Harbor if it's up that high. I'm getting, I was getting four. Okay, now they've moved.

And I'm sweeping it back and forth. It's kind of like a triangle, just back and forth from where the beam is spotted, towards Chicago, then I sweep it back toward, they'll be in a sudden they'll pop-ups. Like, sweeping in the vertical, they look like very strong spike. Yeah, the phrase really weird comes up a lot. A lot. Not only that, you can tell how uneasy he is.

I mean, like he mentioned, this thing, he was sweeping it, you know, from like one, almost from the state border, you know, throughout Michigan and it was just appearing in different locations like instantaneously. So, I mean, are we dealing with one massive craft moving all over the place instantaneously? Or are we dealing with like a full on invasion of different craft? It's so, oh, God, I can't even imagine what was going through their heads. Yeah, when you get towards the end that it sounded more like, I don't recall anyone actually using the word invasion. but there was it wasn't one thing.

There was a bunch of them and people were seeing them from a lot of places. And yeah, there was definite concern. It went from joking about drunks and things like that to what the hell are we dealing with, you know? And it became very frantic. And like I said, that's one of the reasons. I just think it's that saved testimony, particularly when you have audio recordings and you have a radar operator. that's why I think this is if it's not the best for me it's at least in the top five best most plausible examples of UFO and co-owners that if you if you know somebody that's just hearing about this now and they're like oh none of that's real point them to this one

have them sit down and go through all that material and when they're done they're probably going to be like oh maybe I should be watching with this congressional office is doing right um and you know sort of for this This guy, this weather meteorologist, Jack Bouchon, like, he didn't talk about this after it happened because he was afraid of the ridicule that he would suffer, right? I'm sorry, I missed that last part. Could you say that again? Yeah, of course, Jess. Jack Bouchon, the weather meteorologist, you know, the guy's voice we just heard. After all of this happened, he did not, you know, quote unquote, report this because of the stigma and ridicule he thought he would face. Am I correct in that? Oh, yeah. And that's why this story actually stretches on a long time until very recently, as a matter of fact.

Bouchon was asked, and he told friends, we learned later, that he talked about it once. And he got a lot of blowback. And reporters tried to contact him. He wouldn't talk to anybody else. And one of the things he said was, I have a pretty good idea of what this was. but he never said what that idea was. And he said, maybe after I retire from the National Weather Service, I'll talk about it. And he went on, and this was only a few years ago, he did retire, and he did talk about it again.

And he still didn't say what he thought it was. Yeah, yeah, I know, I know. I feel like he only really once retired and also once all of the Pentagon stuff started coming out, that's when he was kind of okay. you know, with telling the public about his involvement with this. And then you know how that goes. When anyone with any sort of credibility comes forward, especially in a case like this,

everyone's going to be all over them. And Unsolved Mysteries was all over this one, man. Did you see their special on it? Oh, yeah, I did. I thought it was good. But again, they do tend to really lean heavily towards reporting the stuff that's the most excitable and the most believable. And they tend to ignore or at least downplay some of the stuff that might call some of the incidents they cover into question.

I don't know if you agree with that assessment, but that's kind of the impression that I get. I was just going back through my notes for a second, and I don't want to backtrack too much. But when you're talking about Bouchang and feeling intimidated and whatnot, I totally forgot the Chicago Tribune interviewed Leo Grineer, the director of the National Leather Service, over where he worked. And he was the person, and I apologize for mixing this up, who came out and said, and I have the quote right here, I don't believe for a minute that it was any kind of alien structure. I think there's a fairly strong earthly explanation for what occurred. And of course, he didn't say what he thought it was either.

But I think Bouchon was much more inclined to believe that it was something significant. But getting back to the thing about how those shows handled that, in that article of mine that you're referencing, I made a reference to another article I wrote, another investigation that we did for the debrief. And that was of the one really big, the Japan Airlines incident. Oh, Tatar Hoochie. Yeah, yeah. And that's one of those ones where I went in. And that also has a ton of old data. But when I went and looked at that data, in my, and I'm going to make a lot of people angry. I'm sorry because I know that's a big favorite incident for a lot of people.

That one doesn't really stand up very well under scrutiny. Really? How so? That's why it's good to have all the old data. And I'll find you a link. Matter of fact, I just realized I'm not on camera. I can just DM it to you right now if you want to stick it in the show notes. later or in the chat.

Yeah, that got played up and there's been a lot of TV specials that were done about that one. And like I said, it really just kind of doesn't hold up because they have, the records are available of the transcripts. I just DMD that link, by the way. The transcripts of the interviews that were done, got to remember that that Japan Airlines flight that was a cargo flight. There were only three people on board. The pilot, the co-pilot, and the navigator. The pilot was the one who reported everything that's talked about.

When they interviewed, and one of them was done in Japanese, but we have an English language translation of it, the other two, the co-pilot and the navigator, they never saw anything like what he was talking about. One of them said they saw some lights, but they were down closer to the ground, and they looked like city lights was the phrase he used. like they were seeing lights on the ground.

The radar data, that gets overplayed in the TV shows quite a bit. You can listen to the radar operators. And I have those audios linked in that article I did in the Japan Air one. And, you know, they did see something sporadically, but it very well could have been scatter. And if you don't work in radar, you might not know what that means. But if there's a lightning storm in the area, lightning produces, these broad bands across the entire spectrum when it, when it flashes. And they showed up on the older radars that didn't have, excuse me, filters quite as good.

And they never had anything big behind them like the mothership that the pilot was describing. Only thing they had behind them was like five miles away and it was another airliner. And I walked through all those details in the article. And yeah, the TV shows make the Japan Air one look like another one of the most solid great cases because they have a lot of data. And that's all true. But the data doesn't really support it in a lot of cases in most of what was said, in my opinion. So if you want an example of one that might have been overplayed, go take a look at that article and, you know, determine for yourself what you think. But there's not a lot of support in the Japan-era one, in my opinion.

You're breaking my heart, Jess. I covered that one on Mysteries at the Museum on the Travel Channel. So don't go watch that, guys. because it's a massive waste of time. No, I'm not saying entirely, but just, you know, I'm just asking, go look at what I wrote, look at the data I present it, check it out for yourself, make up your own mind. Something weird definitely could have happened.

You know, there's no question about that in my mind. But it wasn't as clear cut as some other people have made it sound. Fair enough. Well, okay, the title of your Lakeshore piece, what really was seeing, what was seeing during this. What are your thoughts? What do you think these people could have seen in Michigan in 1994? Any theories?

Well, the size doesn't seem to match. Otherwise, I already said this, particularly with the jumping in altitude so fast and all that. I was thinking maybe we already had tic tacks back then. But we don't generally hear descriptions of tic tic tacks being that. big, like considerably bigger than a commercial jetliner. I don't know if I did your episode with people's witness things, but I think you've already talked to me and seen my YouTube channel. I've seen three TikTok.

My wife has, too. And they weren't anywhere near that big. I described them as being the size of a city bus, basically. Would you mind maybe telling us a little more about that? I haven't had a chance to speak to you about that yet, actually. Oh, I would have sworn we did. God, I talked to a few people about it. I even wrote about it. I knew they happened.

I don't think I've had you on witness accounts yet, but here's your chance. Oh, really? At my age, I tell you, I'm losing so many digits. When you put out a call, I had to sit there and scratch my head and go, did I already call in and leave a witness accounting? Oh, God, now you're making me, we didn't think. All right. We're both getting too old.

Yeah, but let me know when you're doing the next collection and I'll call in. That's right. Yeah, I went 60, I went more than 60 years without ever seeing anything, a UFO. I mean, you see some weird lights in the sky. You know, everybody does. It might be a satellite or, you know, whatever. Who knows? Never saw anything.

And then in November of 2020, my wife and I saw two UFOs in one week, one week apart. the first one was a bizarre orb, for lack of a better word, like a big round ball that was just dozens of different lights that melded. And it just, I filmed that one for more than five minutes. It was just above the ridge to the east of my house and it was just going to the left and then slowly to the right and up and down. And it never did anything else. And I eventually gave up and went to bed. One week later, she was out walking the dog, my wife, I mean, and a, uh,

she looked up and I was we lived near the corner and she was on the street walking our dog about 20 yards away but I could see her from there and suddenly she's looking up and she's got her camera out and she's pointing she's going look look and right over our house it was a cloudy night so it couldn't have been all that high up in the air it was overcast a humongous black triangle went over very slowly very silently had a bunch of little twinket looked like Christmas lights, except they kind of moved in relation to each other, like they weren't really attached to it, or whatever it was. And so she filmed that one, though, the film's terrible time worth watching, but it's on my YouTube channel. So that was two. Didn't see anything else until the spring. And then in the spring, we, and then again, in August,

I'd have to go look at the dates on the videos, because I tried filming all but the first one. And then another one in late September. We had three tick decks come over in daylight, broad daylight, and they were visible from my back deck. And the first one, I didn't have my camera in my pocket. And at first I assumed it was a plane until it became more clear. And there's no wings. There's no windows. There's no jet exhaust.

It's just this tube thing. And it's going by. And by the time I realized that, my wife was in the den, I reached for my camera, which is not there because it's recharging. I went crashing through the house. And I was screaming on my way in, get your camera, get out front. I felt horrible because later she told me she thought the house was on fire

because she had no idea what was going on. But she grabbed her camera and ran out front and I went and grabbed mine and yanked it off the charger and I came out front. And there was nothing there. I didn't see it. She said, I saw something wait for a second, but it's gone.

The second one, things worked out. And I should point out, at the speed it was traveling and the height it was on a very clear day. From the front of my house, if it was continuing in a straight line, I should have been able to see it for quite a while heading off till it went over the horizon. It was just gone. I got a better idea what happened to the second one, because the second one I was out of my deck and this time I had my camera.

And the exact same thing happened. It came from the same direction. It came from the west, heading towards the east, a little bit lower than the previous one. And it came up about even with my house, and it stopped. I don't mean it slowed down. I mean it was moving, and then it was just hung there. And it started to turn slightly.

So the nose was pointing a little more towards our house, or maybe the tail. I don't know how it works. And it was just hanging there while I was filming it, and it vanished. It didn't land, it didn't crash, it didn't fly away. It friggin disappeared. And it was gone. And that freaked me out because at that point, I was just like, if our government's got something like that, we've really been kept in the dark. And then we saw another one in the fall that did basically the same thing except didn't disappear, just kept going.

And when on its merry way, I never saw any aliens. I never saw, it was just things in the sky. You know, I never, some people talk about getting downloads or telepathy or nothing like that. No, it was just things I saw that were up in the sky. So there's the short version. Those are the five I've seen, and my wife saw them too. Wow, man. I had no idea it was that many. Yeah, I'm going to have to have you on witness accounts to retell those in further detail.

Happy to do it. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that with us. So, I mean, I guess to kind of wrap things up here, Jazz, we'll take listener and viewer questions to guys, if you want. Throw them in the chat now. for Jazz as we kind of start to wrap things up here. Yes, and everybody I know

Ryan's too modest to say it, but make sure you hit those super chats and whatnot. So he does a lot of work for you. So if you can manage to help, please do so. Thanks, man. Always appreciate it. Super chat is open, guys.

If you do want to help the show, you're right, jazz. I'm too modest for that stuff. Help the show out, guys. You want to ask Jazz Shaw a question. You got to pay for. Well, I got another question. I know, I know. That's a little too much. I got to just pull it back.

Pull it back, right? Let's talk about for a minute, okay, Arrow, this new group. You know, we kind of talked about it in the beginning. This is going to be their year to really play catch up, I think, and really show us what they're capable of. And they got a lot of work to do, you know, now decades of work to do. And in terms of that, you know, there was even one point I recall late last year where they were hiring. And once UFO Twitter got on this, everyone was like, oh my God, we could work for Arrow. We could work for Arrow.

And now we're learning of people who possibly have worked for Arrow or haven't or worked for the UAP Task Force, this, that, this, that. Some of them who are quite famous and we've seen on TV a lot. yes yes yes as we learned yeah that bombshell is pretty interesting um would you make the i was so off guard dude when i heard that i was like are you kidding me you were doing that show that whole time and you didn't even tell the people on the team and i guess in regan man dragon can't dragon was pissed and you know but i i guess i understand he must have signed a non-disclosure agreement or something. And it was very secret stuff.

But when it did come out, yeah, I was blown away. I was like, and I wonder what he told them. And he still can't tell us everything that he told them. But he was a science consultant. And he's definitely seen some weird things. And they're in the business of looking at weird things. So I'm not bothered. I'm not mad at him.

And I guess we have to understand that because of NDAs and whatnot, he couldn't tell us until it became public knowledge. So, no, I'm not angry about it, but I will just say shocked is the one word. I was beyond shocked. I was blown away when I learned that. And I later found out that other people I knew already knew that, but they were keeping it under wraps. So, yeah, that was a shocker. It was interesting. Well, I know you're kind of digging into something related to this.

I know you can't share much, but you're working on a new article. We were talking about it off air here right before. we got on, you are diligently researching and writing away. Is there anything you can share on what might be coming up over there at the debrief? Oh, yeah. And it's not, I don't want to give anybody a false impression, like I'm about to reveal the secrets and, you know, I have the Bob Lazar sports model or something. No, it's nothing like that. It's, and it might sound a lot more mundane and perhaps even boring, and I apologize in advance, but I think it will be important going forward, we just seated a new Congress, as you know, following last year's midterm

elections. And it was a tumultuous process. But when control of one of the chambers changes hands, as it did, then the staffing levels and the seat assignments on almost all of the committees shifts. Not everybody changes, but there is a shift because particularly in the house, the majority gets more seats than the minority. And that means, including in the House Intelligence Committee, more properly the permanent select committee on intelligence, the actual name, which is one of the two committees that's doing the heavy lifting with Arrow and witnesses

and things like that. And also on the Armed Services Committee and Kristen Gilbert in the Senate version, both chambers have those committees. She's in the Senate version. She's in both of them. And there have been some members in the House and the Senate that have been very supportive of efforts to push disclosure forward and to create the Arrow Office and try to get to the bottom of all of this. There have been others who are not so interested or in some cases are just frankly dismissive.

And when that shift happened, I immediately started to wonder, we're going to be getting a bunch of new Republicans on those two committees in the House. and there's going to be a number of Democrats who will be bumped because there aren't enough seats. And I thought it would be interesting for everyone just in terms of projecting things I've been going through looking at which people have been added to those two committees in the House. There's not going to be a big change in the Senate, just so people know, except for a couple people that retired. in the Intelligence and Armed Forces Committees. I was looking at the new members who were added. I've been researching that and the Democrats that we lost to see if any of them were the ones that were really supportive of this work. And if we're getting any new people who are more like, I don't want to talk about little green men, things like that, because that could shift the balance on any votes in the future for the next NDAA.

So I think that's going to be an important topic. and I'm trying to delve into that, and I hope people will read that and enjoy it. And if any of them are representatives in areas where you live, I would hope we continue to encourage you to support the ones who are supporting the work that they're doing and the new office. And if any of them are the really skeptical ones, they'll probably change their mind if they hear from enough of their own constituents. So that's the main purpose I have in that. But I think it will be important for everyone to understand, everyone interested in euthology, interested in this whole subject,

to understand where the shifts are happening. In the Senate, I think we're okay. We're not going to lose Rubio. We're not going to lose Jellbrand. Unfortunately, we might lose Galeo. Yeah, because his seniority is not that high, and the Democrats are going to have to give up like five seats on that committee. and if we lose him, well, then he loses his access to all of this,

and that's an important voice that goes away. So just stay tuned and keep your eye. And for those of you stay engaged and actually do contact your representatives and whatnot or whatever it's worth, just say, hey, we need to keep the focus on this. But yeah, I will try to get an update to everybody for which seats they should probably be looking at and see if that affects them directly and how that will affect the conversation entirely. And that's pretty much what it's going to be about. So, no, I'm not about to unleash an army of grays or anything, you know.

That's fair, man. Well, yeah, no, I agree with you. I think, you know, we had a lot of forward momentum, you know, with a lot of the Congress people recently. And a lot of that came from the UFO community, you know, kind of pressuring them. And in turn, them pressuring the government. And, you know, someone to kind of pick up the reins on that is on UFO. Twitter, Katie Howland, I highly

suggest people go follow her on Twitter. She's doing a lot of good work with that. You know, contacting your reps. And, you know, there's still forms out there through the Black Vault. You know, it might even still be up on the UCR website, if that's not defunct.

I'm not positive. Where you can get standard like forms that you can send to your representatives to get them to try to look into this topic. So definitely. I haven't checked in a while, but I do not believe, there's two different sites. There's the YouTube and there's a site just for UCR,

but then there was the big phone home, one, two, and three. That had its own site, and that's where all the forms are. And I'll go check again after we finish the show. And it wasn't that long ago. I did look because I had a question about one of those forms, and it was still up. So I don't, as far as I know, it wasn't taken down.

So, yeah, that may still be there. And maybe Ryan can stick something in the show notes later. Yep. Yeah, guys, let me know in the chat if you see our website's still up. It is invaluable, in my opinion. I hope it's still there. We'll find the forms for you no matter what. A couple listener questions here for you, Jazz.

If you don't mind sticking around. Cool, cool. The first one comes from Ian. He asks, why is he did correct himself. He meant why is Bigelow Skinwalker Ranch Files still top secret? Do you have any thoughts on that on why that might be? I would need a little more context, Ian, because the stuff on the civilian side, there's not much of it that's being withheld. I mean, you can follow Brandon Fugel on Twitter.

He has tons of links. They have a website running where you can go sit and watch cameras 24-7, you know, at Skinwalker Ranch. They reveal as much as they have time for in their show when it comes out. there were bits of things that went on there prior to his ownership. Now, I think he's talking about all the stuff from when Bigelow owned it. That's not even class. Well, there probably are, and let's be clear, we're speculating here. There probably are government files.

We don't know how to get them because we don't even know what to ask for from that period. Nobody knew that was going on at the time outside of the people that were directly involved. And Bigelow is the one who refused to turn over any of his documents to Brandon when he bought the ranch. How much of it he gave to the government is unknown. He doesn't talk about it. Whatever went on during Bigelow's tenure. So I guess just to address the incorrectly, if there's any of it that's top secret that might be things that were documented and actually given to the government as part of their agreement for OSAP and the 22 million. dollars, they got to run ASAP, shepherded through by Harry Reid. So if there are any,

quote, government documents that are, quote, top secret, I'm not aware of them, Ian. I've never been rejected on a request because, again, I didn't really know what to ask for. Most of the stuff that's secret, and I'm using that one now with single quotes, is just stuff that Bigelow has, and he's refused to share with anyone. So in a way, that's secret, but it's not the same as top secret secret in government terms. If that's about the best answer I have, if that helps, I hope. Yeah, for sure. And I mean, you know, for anyone who wants any thing that happened during the Bigelow days, take it for what you will,

check out Skinwalkers at the Pentagon. I mean, again, anecdotal, just stories. But, you know, George Knapp swears by a Combe Keller, worked on the, ranch during the Bigelow days, swears by a lot of these stories. And I know that's controversial. A lot of people don't buy any of it. But end of the day, it's interesting. I'm a guy about stories. Like, that's my life. So I love the book. Yeah. But at the same time, I think there's a lot of us who are kind of in the middle ground in between. John Greenwald, I think, has raised some very valid questions about the Bigelow era and about things that are in that book, Skinsmark.

at the Pentagon, which don't all match up with some of the stuff that we've learned later from government documents or other witnesses. And so, yeah, I think maybe sometimes people remember things differently or they have a preferred narrative of how to tell the story, even though it's based in fact, things that actually happened. There are misinterpretations. We're talking almost two decades ago now, you know, and people's memories are not perfect.

So I don't know. I agree with you. Let everybody make up their own mind. Go take the information. Look at what the skeptics are saying. Look what it says in the book and what's being said. I have no doubt there are kernels of truth and all of it. It may not all be, you know, God's honest kernels, you know, and absolutely unrefutable.

But it was certainly an interesting era. I've written a number of articles about that era and the era in between Bigelow and the current owner. and I still find the story fascinating and definitely worth your time to look into. If you have any interest in this topic, that's an interesting alley that you can go down. Interesting. You're going to have to fill me in on the in-between times. I'm not too familiar with that. Can you link me to that article when you get a chance? I'll put it in the show notes as well.

Yeah, I'll look for it when we're done. Also, I need to talk to you afterwards because we said that thing earlier about witnesses. is giving testimony and I have something I can't talk about on the air, but I wanted to tell you about it and get your feedback. Oh, sure. We should have to talk about that later. Okay. No, I know somebody who may be going to testify very soon, personally.

Okay. You heard it here first, guys. And maybe you'll hear about it in the future. If he does, we'll know. We'll know. We're going to know whether he or they like it or not. Here's our next listener question, Jess. what is your stance on the ET hypothesis?

Oh, one of my favorite questions. Back when I was doing a lot more podcasts, which I haven't been doing quite as much recently because of a change in my job, I got asked that all the time, and I probably, if you asked me on four different shows, I would have three different answers and one repeat. As far as who or what,

if anyone is driving the UFOs, And no, I don't like saying UAP. I still say UFOs all the time. Sue me. I don't know. I mentioned this to Ryan while we were covering this. I've never seen any aliens. I've never seen any beings.

I've never seen anything like that. I just know there's weird crap flying around in the sky. So we all know the standard selection of choices to answer that question. It could be our stuff that's being flown secretly and nobody's being told about. adversaries, adversarial technology, they've leapfrogged us in some massive, and I mean incredibly massive way, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Beyond that, you get into, obviously, ETH is one, extraterrestrials. It could be underground terrestrial things, non-human terrestrials. That's one theory. Time Travelers is a big theory. It's us coming back

from the future to see where things went so wrong. And if I wanted to know the answer, to that question, 2020 through 23 would probably be a good place to look. Something like that. Or transdimensional, does the universe have more than three physical dimensions, but we're not capable of seeing them? There are some long established theories that say that's

true. Is it beings that exist in these other dimensions primarily, but occasionally they can slip through, and that's why they're so hard to find and they can come and go, things like that? I don't think we know enough to rule any of those out entirely. Maybe in a hundred years or 500 years,

we will. We're advancing pretty quick technologically also. Stop and think about the fact that the first powered flight is believed, although it's been contrary to many times to have happened in the very early 1900s, less than 60 years later we're on the moon. You know, we're coming along. We might figure some of this out. If there's anybody out there, choose what out there means, as you wish, that had a thousand or a million year head start on us. Who the hell knows? But if I have to pick one, yes, I think that extraterrestrials is the most likely. An underground civilization like Lamuria seems like it would be a lot harder to hide

for this long without any really good documentable physical evidence. Time travel may be possible. There are scientists who speculate that it is reverse time travel. much, much harder than forward time travel, if there to be believed. I'm not a physicist. I don't know. It may turn out time travel is totally doable, so that could be a possibility. But I lean against it until we can figure out in a better way how with our understanding

of the laws of physics, which admittedly may be very, very wrong, how that could be done. And really for me, all that really leaves is, you know, the Russians have. anti-gravity technology, which would be pretty shocking because they're getting their butts kicked by a third world nation, Ukraine, you know, and if they've got any gravity, I think Ukraine would have been gone on day one, you know. So, no, I, yeah, I'll go ahead and say it. If I have to pick, I've seen the things myself, like I said, if I had to pick who made the technology that could make something like that with no observable technical capabilities, no wings, no lift, no propulsion, no nothing, be able to fly through the air, suddenly stop on a dime and disappear from sight? I'm going to go with ETs for now. Yeah. I think it's probably the most likely one.

Okay. Well, I got to ask. But not definite. Not definite. Okay. Well, how about dolphins? Oh, you know, I put that in the show, the thing when I was promoting it and said we could talk about dolphins. Yes, if nobody's ever read my article on the tic-tacks are created by the dolphins, yeah, that's still on the table, too. Is it unlikely? Well, yes, but they're all unlikely. They're all unlikely possibilities, you know? and if the dolphins, there's a subsection of dolphins that are highly technically advanced,

they had a five million year head start on us. They were on the land five million years before we were and they have huge brains. So, yeah, I wrote a massive article about that a while ago at the debrief. And I mostly did it as a thought experiment. So, no, it's not going to be number one on my list. But I won't write it off entirely because intelligent dolphins with telekinetic capability, Yeah, that sounds pretty crazy. But aliens sounds pretty crazy, too,

until we actually find one. You know, so, yeah, sure. Dolphins, why not? Why not? There's got to be a reason so many UAP are seen around water, too. I honestly do buy into that. So, yeah, make of it what you know. And the dolphins, if you watch the dolphins working with researchers

in those pools all the time, they're always trying to hump the girls that are researching them. So, bear with me here for a moment. Could that be part of their hybrid program? Trying to create hybrids? Hmm, think about it. Okay, honestly, don't think about that for too long. Don't please, guys.

Oh, God. I'm going to have some weird nightmares tonight. Thanks, Chad. It's okay. It's just dreams, guys, just dreams. All right. This is a good listener question, I think, to kind of make it as recent as possible, Jazz.

Ryan Baker, one of our staunch supporters here somewhere in the skies, thank you for being here, as always, Ryan. He asks, Jazz, any preliminary thoughts on the recent racetrack UAPs or the muscle or of this Jeremy Corbell, George Napdrop that just happened out of Iraq? Yeah, you got any thoughts on either of these cases? Both. Of course, I follow all this stuff. I have not seen any sufficient debunking of the racetrack UIPs that would explain everything to me. And there's too many credible people who have absolutely no reason to lie and who are very good observers. You know, I don't, I have not seen a good explanation either terrestrial or exotic. So as far as I'm concerned, still unknown.

but it's certainly a good candidate for this could be one of those weird things. As far as the Mosul one goes, it's still pretty fresh. I've looked at it. I've seen a couple really good analysis. John Greenwald had one. I won't go down the whole list. And Ryan, you've already talked about this, I think. And it was, you know, it's a four-second clip.

And we don't even have the whole four seconds. and the thing, the object of interest is there for one second, like, I don't know, 28 frames, I believe. How many frames per second is film, Ryan? 27, 28. That sounds about right, yeah. Yeah. So we've got somewhere between 25 and 30 frames of this thing, if you have the entire clip. Yeah.

The location has been identified and confirmed. so that part seems real. It was taken from one of our spy planes. The HUD data on the video matches. I went and checked for the type of camera that was being used back then. What is it? What are my thoughts? Well, it's a big ball.

And it looks metallic and shiny on the top. And at the time of day, if you look at the time on the screen, that would have been when the sun was overhead and would have been reflecting. And could it be a balloon? If we could get the whole film and if it looked like it was moving at the speed of the current wind, sure, there are balloons that are metallic looking.

That's a thing. But the description that goes along with it was that it was passing by and it was moving in a tremendous rate of speed and there was not a hurricane or tornado currently blowing through Mosul at that time. So I think it's, a really good one, but what was it?

You know, if I can, because I want everybody to get their money's worth when they're asking questions, I had some thoughts about this that I'll share with you, Ryan, and with the audience, is that this is a really disappointing video, once again, and a lot of them are disappointing to me. Why is it disappointing? Because we all, those of us who are older, grew up watching all these movies, you know, where, you know, Stephen Spielberg is doing things. and the aliens arrive and they have these ships

and they look like these gigantic things that look like birthday cakes or cities in the air and they turn around and turn over or there's these big saucers and they glow and they spin and they come down and and they have legs that come out and hatches that open and beings come out and that's what we all think of and then we get some

actual government footage of an actual freaking UFO and it looks like a stainless steel beach ball. Thanks guys you know you could have at least put some lights on it. Make it a little interesting. Make it something we can use on the 5 o'clock news.

That's just my thought I'll share. I love it. Yeah. No, that's a very good point. Yeah. Well, let me get your thoughts on this because this is another kind of, I guess, theory. And this is just the beginning. Jeremy Corbell has stated that he and George Knapp, their new podcast,

Weaponized. that they will be releasing more images, more videos that have been given to Jeremy. And everyone wants to know, I know, I know, but everyone wants to know, jazz, why Jeremy? And why did they give him all this stuff? And most importantly, in my opinion, why, what reason are we getting the Mosul Iraq one? Has this been explained? Or is this still truly an unexplained? Now, we know whatever Jeremy got was from an educational, you know, presentation given that, you know, are these the rejects?

Are these the ones that they wanted to test people with and be like, no, we know that's a puddle on the ground or we know that was a mylar balloon. But here, here, UFO community, you can have our little table scraps, our rejects. What do you think of that theory? Lots of places can expose you to identity theft. Oh, no. That's why LifeLock monitors 100. of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity, which is way more than anyone can do on their own. If we find anything suspicious, like new loans or changes to your financial accounts, we alert you right away, all through text, phone, email, or the LifeLock app.

Get the alerts that could make all the difference. Save up to 40% your first year at LifeLock.com slash special offer. Terms apply. Why Jeremy is the fundamental question, right? Yeah. okay we're getting into some dicey territory but then again i'm an opinion journalist i'm not afraid of dicey territory we can go ahead i believe i have two sides of an answer to that question um and for whatever it's worth and you don't place your own value on this on the one hand jeremy corbell and his partner george knapp who have done so much very very good value work over the years. They have also tended at times to go in a very accepting manner

towards some of the, shall we just say, more controversial claims that have been made and aspects of uphology. And we don't even have to say the name to know who we're talking about primarily here. And so that raises questions immediately for some people. And with good reason, I will say. at the same time, if you go back and we'll invoke his name for probably the third time in this show and watch John Greenwald's very recent thing on the Mosul, citing on this film, he also, he delivers. Jeremy Corbell delivers, and he has delivered things in the past. Everybody looked at was like, wait, what? And then when you go ask the Pentagon, they're like, yeah, that's real. Okay. and he gets real stuff. So it's not like Jeremy Corbell does not have sources.

Don't know who they are. I don't have those kind of sources. I'll tell you. He's been doing it for a long time. He's been cultivating sources. And he has meticulously avoided naming any of those sources, ratting them out, getting anybody in trouble, anything like that. And I think that builds trust in him.

so he probably gets more sources that way. So I'm inclined to believe personally, just my opinion, that he's not putting out stuff that isn't real. And when I say real, I don't mean automatically, oh, it's definitely an extraterrestrial stuff. No, it's just a thing that actually happened. And people inside the government had evidence, and they're willing to share it with him privately

because it was classified and it couldn't be shared. And so I think, This is real. What was it that was filmed? Jeremy doesn't even claim to say that he knows what it is. You know, it's a thing. So I think you can be skeptical about some of his conclusions, but the material that he supplies,

the names sources that he cites, they do seem to be completely legitimate. So as far as I'm concerned, I think this is going to turn out to be completely real. it is not outside the realm of possibility that, and I already know three people, including me, who have written, have sent in requests to get the Pentagon to comment and say, is this legitimate, you know, did this come from you originally? I don't know if they'll answer so far. We haven't gotten any answers, but it's better than getting a no answer because they're still waiting,

or maybe they just don't want to talk about it. But I hope that answers the listener question. I think it's pretty remarkable, although it'd be cooler if it looked like something from Steven Spielberg. It's certainly unexplainable. If it's actually flying in a straight line and not falling, I don't see how it's doing it. And I would go very, very high percentage that it's real. I think Jeremy has proven himself over and over again that he doesn't put something out until he's ready to put it out.

He could have been sitting on this for years, years, because he said on stuff for years before until the source was okay and until everything he thought was cool and it was okay to do that. And it's probably real and he'll probably be proven correct yet again. it doesn't mean he's proven quote aliens or anything just that it's real it was a thing that the military saw and that's where I am right now how's that I love it I love it no um I can full disclosure I've worked with Jeremy in the past on whatever television projects podcasts um I consider him a friend a colleague and uh I can say like he is good and what he does, whether you buy into, you know, what he does or the hype he creates or the content he produces, that's a whole different thing. The fact of the matter is, we're talking about it here tonight. People are talking about it all over. Mainstream media is starting to pick up on it. You know, you know, once Joe Rogan sees this, it's going to blow up even more. He probably already has. The fact of the matter is Jeremy is always proven right. And I think John, Greenwald did make a good point. There's one thing about Jeremy Corbell that has always intrigued me.

I, as you know, am not a fan of leaked material whatsoever. I hate it. I despise it and often speak out against it. But here's the thing about Jeremy. Even though this is leaked material from anonymous sources, which is the other half of my statement I wanted to say that I absolutely despise, Jeremy comes through every time. And why I say comes through is everything else that he has published that he alleged was from a DOD UAP task force briefing or something similar. The Pentagon has confirmed it. Now, I've tried in the same way when this was published within not too long, but that that morning when I saw it,

the questions from me fired off to the Pentagon pretty quick. but I have yet to hear anything back, which is actually kind of bizarre, because those last leaks in 2021, they were very quick. In some cases, within hours, getting back to me saying, oh, yeah, these are legitimate photos and these are being utilized by the UAP task force. What they would not do despite reports, and anybody can prove me wrong if I'm wrong, but I have yet to see it because I tried to stay on top of it as best as I could. They never said that they were considered unidentified.

They only said that the imagery was being utilized by the UAP task force. So what does that mean, that they're truly unidentified, and they're using that as an example of unidentified craft. They are identified, and they are using them as an example of a drone, balloon, whatever the object is, in what capacity were they being utilized? And we don't know. when it comes to this image, same deal here. I'm going to assume that the Pentagon will eventually come back and say that it's real. I don't have any reason to doubt it at this point. And with Jeremy's track record on this, hey, I'm just going to kind of go forward with the small assumption that it is legitimate.

But whether or not it is considered unidentified to the military is another question entirely. You know, does it take him half a year to do it? Yeah, but look, these things take time. And everything... Yeah, they do. Forward. Either the Pentagon has confirmed or, you know,

he's delivered. And they're not as quick this time to admit, yep, yep, it is. Hopefully that'll change soon. Oh, you remember, like, the green triangle thing that he released, right? Yeah, a day later, right? It was totally confirmed.

Now, does that mean that it was? wasn't maybe some Boka, whatever they call that, and maybe it was something conventional and the sailors didn't realize that. We don't have those answers. But it was legitimate. It came from the military. And that also got confirmed. You know, I'll go ahead and just say the name, just get it out of the way because we're never going to avoid it.

If it weren't for the fact that he and George have been so wedded to Bob Lazaro this time, if you took that picture out of the equation, I think both Jeremy, and Bob, Jeremy Corbell, and George Knapp, would be, and they already are, don't misrepresent me, but they would be almost one of the just most pristine crystal examples of when you get something from them, you can take this to the bank. And it may turn out, I will still say this with all honesty, although I find it's so hard to believe, they may be proven right about Bob Lazar some day. They might. It just, it sounds more important. probable than anything I could imagine, but they might. And when I see all the other stuff they've delivered that turned out to be true, who were the first people to come up with the stuff about

Harry Reid being attached to us app and A-Tep, all right? You know, it was George Knapp. You know, so many examples, they have delivered so often over and over again. And I think they kind of carry sort of a weight around their shoulders with the Bob Lazar thing, which has never been proven out yet. There's nothing that backs up except the fact that he was there for a period at some point doing God only knows what, but nothing with the flying saucers or anything. That's never come through. And I understand the people who are skeptics who say, well, if you're pushing the Bibles, our story, then you must be full of crap. I don't say that about either of them. They deliver. They deliver on a regular basis. And stuff that gets proven out, admitted by the government,

absolutely. So I know I've dug a hole for myself right now because you're not supposed to say bad things about Babel-Zar or good things about Bubbles are. But that's where I am. I hope that answers the question. Thou who shall not be named. Right. Well, I'm one of those just rebels, man. I'm going to go ahead and say the words. I love it, man. Well, hey, say a few more words for us. We're going to wrap things up here, guys. I've kept you longer than I promise jazz. We covered. a lot. Again, guys, all the way... This was great, man. I knew if I had you on, we didn't have to prepare too much

because I knew we could talk forever. And we did. And, man, this is one of my most high-viewed live streams live in a very long time. So thank you, Jess. Thank you for that. Thank you for everybody that saw me on Twitter and tuned in.

We really appreciate it. We really do. I'll go ahead and say it one more time before Ryan asked me to close out. If you can pitch in and help the show, please do. I don't have my own shows, so I don't take donations. But the people that I work with, the people that I go on and do interviews with, these people put in an insane amount of work and personal expense in the background.

I'm not just talking about Ryan. A lot of great shows. I know you follow them all out there. I follow Ryan's every week. I don't endorse things that I don't use. I have not missed an episode of Somewhere in the Sky's probably in four years. Wow. No, every time. It's in my pod feed. I don't listen to it the same day it comes out.

It depends on my schedule. But I listen to them all. And everybody, really, he puts so much into this. So if you have it in your heart, if you have a little extra, I know times are tough, kick in, help them out a little bit. Because he's doing this all for you. And for the vast majority of us, he does it absolutely for free. So if you can help, please do. Thanks, buddy. I should mention I just got this new microphone today. It came in the mail. My old microphone finally bit the dust, rest in peace, old shir mic.

But I got the new shir mic here. But yeah, you know, these things cost money. So anything you guys can chip in does truly help. And it all goes right back into the show. I'm not buying a Lamborghini. I'm not, you know, sipping on lattes on your dime. It goes back into doing what we do. And that's talk about UFOs here on YouTube and on the podcast.

Spoiler alert. has three Lamborghinis. I got three Lambo's parked outside. I just have to learn how to drive on the other side of the road before I kill anybody here in the UK. Jazz, this has been awesome, brother. Thank you. Guys, all of his articles are

linked in the show notes below. Check them out. But before I let you go, Jazz, let us know where we can find everything else you're up to. And any last few words you want to say to the audience? As far as where you can find me, I don't have a show on my own. People always ask me and it's like, I always see you on YouTube and doing all this UFO stuff.

Well, yeah, that's because other people invite me. I don't actually have a show. So don't bother. I'll send Ryan a link to my YouTube channel. There's like five videos on there, six, five of them are UFOs we saw. And one of them was a pigeon that was acting really weird. So that's what you get on my YouTube channel. Don't be expecting a lot.

You can follow me on Twitter at J-S-H-S-H-A-W. You can go to hotair.com. Any day of the week, you will see me writing articles there. I do write pretty frequently about UFO stuff when there's something in the news that involves Congress. The rest of it's mostly politics. You may like it. You may not.

You can ignore all that stuff. But like Ryan said, I have another UFO coming up shortly. So we'll see how that goes. And aside from that, I mean, I don't really use Facebook or anything else. So those are really the places to look for me or just look for me popping up occasionally on various shows where people want me to come out and talk about UFOs, which I'm always happy to do. And that's about it, really. And I appreciate Ryan having me on. I had a great time today.

And I'm always available. I love it, man. No, it was my pleasure, truly in our own. honor. I'm going to put you in the green room here. Say good night to the audience and we'll chat backstage after that. Sound good? All right. All right. I'll see you in just a sec. Guys, once again, Jazz Shaw. Thanks for coming on Summer in the Skies. And as always, keep your feet on the ground, but never stop searching. Somewhere in the Skies is produced by Third Kind Productions in association with the Entertainment One podcast network.