Somewhere in the Skies - The Extraordinary Life and Strange Death of James Forrestal - Part 2

Episode Date: February 12, 2018

On episode 43 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, we continue our journey with Peter Robbins through the mysterious death of James Forrestal. This is PART 2 of the series. On May 22nd, 1949, Forrestal fell to his death from the sixteenth-floor window of Bethesda Naval Hospital, where he was treated for “depression”. An official U.S. Navy Medical Review Board convened on his death, after examining all doctors and witnesses who were in the vicinity. They could not establish the reason for Forrestal's fall. The peculiar circumstances of Forrestal's death, and the U.S. government's withholding of the complete report of the review board until 2004 has led to much speculation and controversy. What many are not aware of is that Forrestal has also been connected to the controversial MJ-12 group, an alleged secret committee of scientists, military leaders, and government officials, formed in 1947 by an executive order by then U.S. President, Harry Truman, to facilitate recovery and investigation of alien spacecraft. Before his departure as Secretary of Defense, Forrestal had a mental breakdown, which ultimately led to his untimely death. What did he know? What was he told? And what exactly happened to him in the hospital as he plunged downward into tragedy and questionable history? Guest Bio: Peter Robbins is an investigative writer, author, and lecturer, best known for his books, columns, articles, radio commentaries, interviews and conference talks. He has appeared as a guest on and been a consultant to numerous television programs and documentaries. Peter was born in Queens, New York and studied art, design, and theater at the University of Bridgeport in Connecticut. He received his BFA (painting, film history) from New York City’s School of Visual Arts (SVA) where he also taught painting for a dozen years. In the mid-1980s, he became seriously involved in UFO research when his knowledge of classified data indicated to him the US government was not telling the public the truth about UFOs. Patreon: www.patreon.com/somewhereskies Official Store: CLICK HERE Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com Order Ryan's Book by CLICKING HERE Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES is produced by Third Kind Productions, in association with eOne Entertainment   Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Choice Hotels get you more of what you value. Comfort in. It's calling your name. Save on the stay. Oh, and free waffles are yours to claim. Book direct at storesotails.com. Hey guys, Ryan Sprague here. As you all know, the Somewhere in the Sky's podcast is always free to consume.

But it isn't free to create. That's why I've started the Somewhere in the Sky's Patreon campaign. On a monthly basis, you give what you think the Shays'i's, show is worth, you'll be helping the show continue, grow, and to be something truly communal. And remember, there are rewards for each level of contribution, and the list is only growing. So please, help Somewhere in the Skies now by becoming a patron. To contribute and to learn more, visit www. www. patreon.com. Backslash Somewhere Skies. Thank you for your support. And now on with the show. Welcome to Somewhere in the Skies. I'm your host, Ryan Sprague. This is part two of a two-part series

featuring author, researcher, and my mentor, Peter Robbins. We are covering a recent lecture Peter has developed about the extraordinary life and strange death of James Forrestall, the first Secretary of Defense appointed by Harry S. Truman. In the first part, we covered the incredible life and career of Forrestall. Now, we're going to dig deep into his possible connections with the MJ12 program and UFOs. Could this have had something to do with Forrestal's untimely death, ruled a suicide? Peter believes this is anything, but, and in the next hour, you'll hear why he believes that Forrestal may have in fact been murdered. I think it goes without saying, if you haven't heard part one, you should probably do so before diving into this episode. And if you have, enjoy part two.

All right, curtain up, and we are back from the intermission to continue this incredible story. And so we will, part two. Official accounts of James Forrestall's death vary slightly, but follow this basic timeline. Early on the morning of Sunday, May 22nd, staff psychiatrist, commander R.R. Dean is asleep in the room next to to Forrest Hall's. The secretary's regular attendant has not shown up that night for his shift, a first, and Hospital Apprentice R.W. Harrison has been assigned to look in on the VIP patient on the 16th floor. Forrestall appears to be sleeping at 1.30 a.m., but is awake at 145 when the apprentice attendant finds him copying Asophocles poem out of an anthology of poetry by,

edited by, I think at the time, America's poet laureate Mark Van Doren, if not he was after that, when the apprentice attendant finds him copying out, the Sophocles poem. Harrison asks if the secretary would like a sleeping pill, but it is declined. Allegedly, at this point, Harrison forgets to lock the secretary's door behind him and reports to Commander Dean's room, or by another account, to the hospital security station on another floor, where he updates the officer. He checks the room again five minutes later to find it empty. A search is immediately begun.

A few minutes later, the seventh floor duty nurse reports hearing a loud noise from her window. It is the sound of Forrestall's body hitting the overhang on the third floor roof. Hospital authorities at first surmised that the patient finding his room on lock as he experiences a sudden, Highly unexpected bout of suicidal depression, stops riding, walks across the hall to the efficiency kitchen, pushes open the unsecured screen window, knots his bathroom sash tightly around his neck, ties the free end to the radiator below the window, then lowers himself out of the window to hang himself, and is killed when the knot at the radiator end of the sash slips its mooring. A first brief report of the tragedy appears on page one of the

Sunday, New York Times late edition. Forestall killed in 13th story leap. U.S. morning set. Nation is shocked. On May 23rd, lead article in the Times, Forrestall's leap laid to depression. Captain Raines laments that, quote, the former Secretary of Defense took his life

in a sudden fit of despondency, quote, unquote, extremely common to the severe type of mental depression he suffered. That day, a five-man naval medical board is convened to investigate the death. It is led by Rear Admiral Morton D. Willicutz, head of the National Naval Medical Center at Bethesda. The canonization of Mr. Forrestall is already in full swing by Tuesday morning, as exemplified by New York Times reporter Hanson Baldwin's impassioned tribute, which begins. Quote, the tragedy of Jim Forrestall had its origins in what Freud

described as, quote, the great subterranean pool of the subconscious mind, an extremely sensitive, very shy, and thoroughly conscientious person who held a motion at arm's length. Mr. Forrestall had built around his inner soul a wall of toughness and reserve that seemed to some to amount to brusqueness. But behind that Irish jaw and broken nose lay a rare intellectual warmth and eagerness for new knowledge and a heart kindly and selfless, end quote. On May 25th, Josephine Forrestall, who is right, remained in Paris throughout her husband's confinement returns to Washington, and without benefit of even a cursory investigation absolves everyone of blame in her husband's death before she even

departs the airport. That afternoon, with President Truman delivering the eulogy and 6,000 people in attendance, James Vincent Forrestall is laid to rest at Arlington National Cemetery with full military honors, including a 19 howitzer salute. He was 57 years old. The Naval Medical Board finishes its hearing on May 30th, having seen fit to conclude its investigation after only seven days. The report is then submitted to Admiral Willicott's, and for the next two weeks, Navy and National Military Establishment Press sections, quote, promised to release the report, but do not. July 19th Times reports that, quote, considerable mystery surrounds a delay in release. the report made by the Special Naval Investigating Board.

Naval press officials give the impression that at least a summary of their findings would be made public. On September 23rd, the public first learns about Forrest Hall's diary and that it is being held at the White House. It is described as filling an entire filing cabinet that includes numerous secret and top secret classified documents. On October 11th, Navy Secretary Matthews makes public the investigative Board's report, absolving, quote, all of any blame in Forrestall's death and in no uncertain terms, quote, that the death was not caused in any manner by the intent, fault, negligence, or inefficiency of any person or persons in the naval service or connected therewith. Such language suggests that the Navy is more concerned with protecting itself than in truly pursuing the matter

under investigation. The report concludes that one, the body found on the third floor ledge was forestalls. Two, that he died of injuries sustained in the fall. Three, that his behavior prior to death, quote, was indicative of the mental depression, end quote. And four, that the treatment and precautions in the conduct of the case were in agreement with accepted psychiatric practice and commensurate with the evident status of the patient at all times, end quote. Considering the investigation's ultra-blanned findings, why the need to delay its release for five months? The Navy gives no explanation for the delay. Driving home the casualty of war, occupational fatigue rationale by both government and media greatly helps the American public to accept and not question Forrestall's death as a suicide,

and there is little call to feel otherwise. The Times editorializes, quote, His tragedy is directly traceable to his overwork on behalf of the country. When it was announced that he was in the hospital with the diagnosis of operational fatigue, it was instantly understood that there was every reason why he should be there, end quote. We are able to establish that this so-called operational fatigue commenced at the specific time, James Forrestall was sworn in as Secretary of Defense. His friend, the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Arthur Crows, Rock recalled in his memoirs, quote, from the time of his appointment, a Secretary of Defense in

1947, my wife had begun to detect inner disturbances in Forrestall that I had not, end quote. And at the other extreme, in late 1949, columnist Drew Pearson wrote, the defense secretary's nervous deterioration dated back over two years. Both observations, one from a good friend and the other from an outspoken enemy, support the premise that Forrestal's mental disturbance began at or about the time he was sworn in as Secretary of Defense in September, 1947. In 1951, Viking Press publishes the Forrestall Diaries, which runs 581 pages and quickly becomes a national bestseller. The Times characterized it as, quote, a wealth of observations made just prior to, and after World War II, by a man who, aside from standing at the center of great events, was acknowledged to be an

accurate observer of the history of his time. Liner notes from the book tell us, quote, this book is drawn from the 15 loose-leaf diaries, over 2,800 pages left in the White House by James Forrestall shortly after his suicide, end quotes. But this presents an serious and real problem. September 23rd, 1949, New York Times has reported that, quote, the journal filled whole filing cabinet, end quote. A cubic foot of documents is the equivalent of about 2,000 or so sheets of typing paper. A standard five-drawer file cabinet, the type used by the Pentagon at the time, could accommodate about 20,000 pages. No one would have questioned the legitimate need to redact or withhold selected entries from such a diary. In fact, it would have been expected.

So why state that the complete diary was only 2,800 pages instead of 20,000? My best guess is that the publisher was never informed of the existence of the additional material. Concerning MJ12, it has not been my intention here to prove or to disprove the authenticity of the numerous documents which the MJ12 group is alleged to have generated. Just to note that the few documents I've referenced support the known timelines, and whereabouts of the individuals in question in all respects. What has become known as the Eisenhower brief document named our protagonist as MJ12, member three. Even in this brief treatment, Forrestall's actions and directives connect him to no fewer than five other members of that working group.

Rosco Hillen Connor, MJ12, number one, Dr. Vannevar Bush, number two, Nathan Twining, number four, General Hoyt Vandenberg, number five, and Sydney Sowers, MJ12, number eight. This is not a smoking gun, but there is smoke, and it's very much worth noting. The so-called Cutler Memorandum, dated July 14, 1954, was located in the National Archives by the distinguished researcher and investigative writer Stanton T. Friedman. Friedman, a retired nuclear physicist, also did considerable research to validate its authenticity. I've also worked, oh yes, on the MJ12 documents. Most important classified government documents ever leaked to the public.

They tell the story of the establishment by President Truman of a group of 12, an all-star cast of people, whose job it was to deal with the recovery of the crash saucer at Roswell. And there were an all-star cast, the first three directors of Central Intelligence, the first Secretary of Defense, six outstanding scientists. Well, after 11 years and visits then to 15 archives, I've been to 19 now, I'm convinced the documents are real. The memo confirms that, quote, an MJ12 special studies project, end quote, did indeed exist, though the memo does not specify what the group's mandate or purpose was.

The September 24th, 1947 memorandum from Truman to Forrestall came attached to the eight-page Eisenhower briefing document. The Truman Library has confirmed that September 24th was the only day during the second, entire second half of 1947 that the president met privately with only Secretary Forrestall and Dr. Bush. Uncharacteristically, the president's appointment calendar does not note the reason for or subject of their meeting. Murder or suicide. Immediately following the tragedy, the New York Times assigned its features reporter Walter H. Wagoner to be the paper's lead journalist on the story. Among other things, Wagoner established the following within hours of Forrestall's plunge. And I quote the following.

One, there were indications that Mr. Forrestall might also have tried to hang himself. The sash of his dressing gown was still knotted and wrapped tightly around his neck when he was found, but hospital officials would not speculate as to its purpose. Two, Mr. Forrestall had copied out most of the Sophocles poem from, the book on hospital memo paper, but he had apparently been interrupted in his efforts. His copying stopped after he had written Knight of the word Nightingale. Reports from his doctors and hospital authorities had indicated steady progress toward his recovery.

It had been accepted that continued treatment would have brought Mr. Forrestall to complete recovery in a matter of months. And five, the final sentence of May 23rd's lead article in the Times reads, quote, On the window sill from which Mr. Forrestall jumped were Marks suggesting that he might have changed his mind and tried to climb back in the window, end quote, with no additional details provided, what can we deduce from this last chilling line of text? Only one thing as far as I'm concerned. The marks referred to were made by the fingernails of the patient on the 16th floor as he desperately tried to keep from falling to his death. We need to ask ourselves, why would James Forrestall had stopped copying the Sophocles poem mid-word? Did he have a sudden need to use the bathroom?

Possibly. But there is something about stopping writing mid-word, as opposed to at the end of a sentence or something that needs to be considered. The most common sense explanation is, and I have to agree with the times. reporter here is that he was interrupted midward. As for the theory that he tried to hang himself, but out of a 16th floor window, subsequent investigation by the Navy established that his bathrobe sash had never been tied to the radiator or anything else for that matter. If foul play was not involved, this could only have meant that Forrestall himself had removed his bathrobe sash, knotted it tightly around his own neck, then lowered himself out of the window, then changed his

mind, then desperately attempted to pull himself back into the building, then lost his grip on the window ledge. I don't see any alternatives to this unlikely scenario. No one can say with certainty what a desperately depressed and suicidly inclined person is capable of doing in a moment of deep despair. Nonetheless, the secretary would have had to have acted in the manner described or that at least two individuals worked to restrain him while tying that bathrobe sash around his neck, then forced him out of that window. For what it's worth, no mental health professional I've ever spoken with about this alleged official scenario has ever heard of anyone making a suicide attempt like this.

The Navy's so-called investigation in DeFarstall's death was concluded in only seven days, and its findings were so cursory and innocuous that it's fair to conclude there is a separate investigative report, which remains classified. Why was hospital apprentice R.W. Harrison, who had never had any previous contact with the VIP patient assigned to monitoring him on this particular night. One account has it that the regularly assigned Marine attendant did not appear for a shift that night due to drunkenness. Not only something that had never occurred previously, but he and the patient had developed a particularly close relationship described as almost father and son-like to son.

Then there's a matter of Monsignor Shihi, the very first person James Forrestal chose to call once he had been granted phone privileges. Given that the former Navy Secretary, a lapsed Catholic, had specifically told Shih in his phone call of his desire to return to the church and by implication to return to the sanctity of the confessional, from the point of view of anyone who considered Forrestall a security risk, Father Sheehe would have been the last person the secretary should have been allowed to speak with. And in six attempts to see the patient, the respected Monsignor never got beyond the hospital's reception area. More, on Monday morning, May 23rd, after learning of

Forrestal's death, the Monsignor returned to the Bethesda Naval Hospital for a seventh time. Shortly after arriving, a hospital corpsman, or somebody dressed as a hospital corpsman, approached him and in the crowded lobby, then quietly said into his ear, quote, father, you know Mr. Forrestall didn't kill himself, don't you? The Corman then disappeared into the crowd before the Schauchman Sr. was able to react or respond, this by his own account. On May 20th, as we've learned, Henry Forrestall had informed the hospital of his intention to take his brother out of Bethesda on Sunday, May 22nd, to recuperate privately.

Following James' death that morning, Henry became convinced that his brother had been murdered, a view he maintained for the rest of his life. And he wasn't alone in that belief. Arnold Rogo's book, James Forrestall, A Study of Personality, Politics, and Policy, is a scholarly and insightful work based in great part on the author's numerous interviews with many who were closest to Forrestall, including Dean Atchison, Clark Clifford, Lewis Johnson, Robert Lovett, Arthur Crock, Henry Forrestall, Dr. William Menninger, Dr. George Raines, and Harry S. Truman. Rogo, a professor of history at the University of California, was anything but a conspiracist.

However, early on, in his book, he makes the following statement. Quote, officially, of course, Forrestall committed suicide on May 22, 1949. But among those closest to him, there are even a few who are certain he was murdered. or if not murdered that his death was very much desired by individuals and groups who in 1949 held great power in the United States." Aftermath, in September of 1947, James Forrestall assumed the mantle of Secretary of Defense. In so doing, he was charged with being, quote, the principal assistant to the president in all

matters relating to national security, end quote. He had been given the authority to establish military policy and programs and held power over all the service branches, effectively making him the second most powerful man in the free world. Yet despite every conceivable effort, investigation, and study, the military forces he commanded remained unable to either confront or gain significant knowledge of the truly anomalous phenomena, then best known as unidentified aerial. phenomena or flying saucers. So it was that almost 70 years ago, the architect of our modern defense establishment cracked under the strain of combined factors, not the least of which was his firsthand knowledge that the most powerful nation on earth was powerless in the face of a truly unknown threat. As the man charged with the defense of the nation, who was also a man in principle, James Forrestall took full responsibility for this failure.

personally as well as professionally, and in the process of doing so came to see his personal life as a failure as well. It's tempting to imagine that an acute emotional breakdown is marked by internal confusion and clouded thinking, and for some people, this is certainly the case. But breakdowns manifest themselves in very different ways, and I think that James Forrestle was all too aware of the hyper-specific circumstances that were the cause of his undoing. He had lived for almost a decade in the heart of that den of ultra-powerful alpha males who oversaw their country's involvement in World War II, then as the head of our Department of Defense, where there was little room for self-delusion. His longtime habit of personalizing his professional successes and failures, and defining himself in terms of them,

in short, that he was at the point of no return. Showing weakness in that world was not forgivable. Real men did not have nervous breakdowns in 1949, least of all to a larger-than-life public figure known for his highly competitive boxing and tennis playing, a presidential advisor, Navy secretary, an overseer of our modern Department of Defense, even if he technically recovered,

The alpha males surrounding the president would never really be able to trust him again. What if he had some sort of relapse? Mightn't he say something to the wrong someone, someone capable of turning the Western world on its head, his well-documented, self-destructive behavior in those final few days prior to commitment in Bethesda, make it clear that he saw the writing on the wall? Like a good Roman soldier about to be captured, Farstall did attempt to throw himself on his sword, but was prevented from doing so at each turn. However, once the prescribed therapy of the time had been given a chance to produce results,

the patient on the 16th floor grew stronger and began to recover his sense of self and his will to live. The doctors assigned to his case were not cleared to know what he knew, anything but, and their commitment was only to restore him to good mental health, period. That ironic turn of events unfortunately sealed his fate and made it necessary for others to complete the job for him. America's collective memory of their fallen hero lingered for a while, though now to be linked forever with the tragedy of his combat fatigue-induced suicide. The implications of such a key player, folding as Cold War realities deepened, were not lost on anyone clear to know the secrets that he knew, And as the years, then decades, began to pass, so did the public's memory of the man who had been a patient at the Bethesda Naval facility in the spring of 1949. To that select group of men who held power in this country in the middle of the last century, James Forrestall's mental collapse had to be treated as a priority national security matter.

The decision to force him out of that window was, I am convinced in no way personal. It's even likely that the men involved, like and admired Mr. Forrestall, as an individual. His murder was simply the only way to resolve what this inner circle had come to perceive as a security risk of the gravest nature. Despite his dedication, love of country, and tireless contributions to the safety and security of our nation, The name and accomplishments of James Vincent Forrestall have effectively been written out of 20th century history. And this oversight is something that should be corrected, don't you think? As the Krispy Chicken Sandwich from 7-Eleven, people always call me loud.

And I'm like, yeah, I know. I'm crispy. Did you expect me to whisper? If you want quiet, go eat some soup and reflect. Like, I know I'm a handful. I'm bold, I'm juicy. Throw some pickles and barbecue sauce on me, and baby, I'm a whole meal. And with seven rewards, I'm just $4.

Quiet. No. Krisby, saucy, and $4? Very. Only at 711. Valley through 62326, participating stores only well supplies last the app for full terms. I don't even know where to begin, Peter. I mean, the tragedy behind this, no matter what you extrapolate, whether it was a suicide or a murder,

the tragedy behind that, the idea that this had to occur, his fate was inevitable. terms of whatever he knew. I just, I don't even know. This really brings to mind the idea of, like, what is most important to us? Like you said, these men in power at the time, they had no choice. The information they had could inevitably unravel everything they'd worked for, you know, as Forrestall being the first defense secretary. It's just, I can't imagine the pressure that any of these men went through. And the fact that Forrestall had this breakdown. I would give anything, anything to have been a fly on the wall that day. Yeah.

It is one of the abiding mysteries at the center of the beginning of our national security state, so to say, that warrants more people having a general understanding of it and an appreciation of this decent, hardworking and very patriotic American. And I use that word very much in the old fashion sense and not the way it's often bandied about now. I sometimes cite a dark aphorism that I credit to mafia hitman before they shoot you in the back of the head twice with the silence 22 pistol of it's nothing personal. It's just business. And again, as I continued my research over the years into this, which for me always includes at least an attempt to get behind the eyes of the people who you may see yourself in opposition to or the bad guys or the mysterious people or the ones that are as front

and center as possible and at least have an opportunity to try to put yourself in their place. I like you, I'm conflicted and what can one say except that this seems to be the way that it happened? And for me, the things that made the telling of this UFO-related story, as true and as well-researched as anything I've tackled over the years, had two elements within it that so many other UFO-related accounts, cases to be dispassionate incidents that you and I have studied in this field, this story has two elements. that I would more associate with drama, fiction, and literally, as well as figuratively, Greek tragedy. And those are the obvious reasons that I felt I should tackle this for a reading. Now, you and I talked a bit before the broadcast, both been busy catching up of it. And I told you that I was satisfied with this for what it is, but that a week or so ago, in just one of those moments, that we have in our creative lives it hit me that it was not what I was after. It's a good piece to

have in my repertoire, I think, for if any UFO specific groups or conferences are interested in what we would call a dramatic reading rather than quote unquote giving a talk. And this accompanied by rear screen projections of many, many images, some lingering on the screen for a few moments, others for a few minutes, that it was a way that I thought I might be able to expand the audience of people that normally, if ever, would, you know, look into a UFO quote-unquote related story. What I realized was there was an answer, a way, a solution to taking this dramatic reading and making it into a truly theatrical project by doing something that would require here and there, certain amount of extrapolation or creative reasoning that isn't necessary absolutely the truth because

we don't know the absolute truth here. And that, I would say simply, except that it requires for me a lot more reading and study and a lot more writing, is take this story and put it in the first person and make all of the appropriate changes, adjustments in the narrative and the text so that it would be a One person, two-act play, recounted by James Forrestall himself. And of course, that immediately sets up the understanding that he is recollecting this after he is gone. And that establishes many wonderful challenges, choices, decisions that a simple narrative reading in the second person does not, as you, as a playwright, well know. Absolutely. And I mean, the fact that, again, we have only the facts given to us by the people involved with the investigation into his death, into his possible murder or suicide.

Therefore, to get the chance to see it through his eyes through the lens of your research, Peter, I think is extremely refreshing. And is what people want is a good story, first and foremost. unfortunately, at the expense of one incredible American's fate, mortality. But, yeah, I do get the sense of a Greek tragedy when we look at this. I'm getting glimpses of Julius Caesar. I'm getting glimpses of Oedipus. Just everything you can possibly think of is in this story. And one of the most intriguing things, as you were going through this, that kept replaying through my mind, is the time period.

And the stakes in which whatever for a star, knew how high they were in terms of his knowledge if, if we are to intrinsically link this to UFOs. That would be taken with the utmost seriousness. And we look at something now. Look at the current Pentagon story that has been making the rounds. This gentleman Luis Elizondo, who has brought this information forward with this, the secret Pentagon program. Now, the guy is talking his, you know, his face off about this. And, we have to wonder, why has there been no stamp put down on what he is bringing forward? And then you look at something like this over 50 years ago having occurred,

and the man was possibly murdered because of the information he knew. Now, how do you believe the times have changed in terms of that, Peter, of the knowledge within these agencies of what people know and what they could possibly leak to the public? Well, they've changed to use a word. that's just come up dramatically since then. First, these were simple at times. And the great majority of Americans genuinely loved their country. And even with all of its faults, and God knows there were many, saw it as the greatest place in the world, that patriotism was not lip service, that people genuinely sacrificed, and that the media, well, you could say this also about

the early 60s when we now know that there were major individuals in the media who were fully aware of John Kennedy's peccadilloes and dalliances and affairs who covered for him, where now it's considered fair sport to take a shot at anybody with confirmed or unconfirmed information regarding scam, immoral behavior, absolute incompetence, etc. there was more of a climate of respect. Right now, I think it's fair to say if every one of your listeners thought of 100 people in their lives, including families, friends, workers, if they've got that many, and most people do, even if you hardly know them, every one of those people has either been in therapy, has a relative who was in therapy, or knows somebody who has been in therapy for all of the

broad meaning that two-word term means to us in our culture. In 1949, you could probably say almost the exact opposite was true. Of any 100 randomly selected people in 1949, nobody knew somebody who was in therapy. Maybe you knew somebody who, you know, seeing a Freudian analyst or something or had a friend or an acquaintance who knew somebody, but it was such a different world. This is also at that crucial period of those few first short years after World War II that the United States was calcifying its secrets around that original irritating grain of sand in the proverbial historic oyster shell that went on to become the pearl. And remember, a pearl is calcification built up on an object that is irritating the host. And I think Richard Dolan embodied,

it so perfectly in the first two of his three-book series, UFOs in the national security state. The origins of our national security state were not secrets around the A-bomb. It was the UFO subject, although official history does not acknowledge that. That's where it began. And in 1949, for the first time that we are aware of, in the two years, less than two years since the modern age of UFO sightings, the tremendous concerns generated that we have read in firsthand accounts and in absolutely authentic, declassified various agency documents, somebody in the highest level of the chain of secrecy breaks. And the break is controlled. He's now institutionalized and no information is going to get in or out. Smart money says that he will get better. But if you're not

familiar with the dynamics of breakdown. And again, I can't stress this whole alpha male reality too much. While Forrestall was a scholar, a gentleman, a patriot, very well read, he was also somebody who possessed these major character flaws of personalizing on an extreme level, as he had done since he was young. His failures and his successes in private life and in his public life. He also seemed to lack the ability to fully confide in anyone. He had friends, certainly, and many people were attracted to the guy. He is absolutely charismatic, that classic idea of he was the man in the room that all the women wanted to sleep with and all the guys wanted to have a drink with or play around a golf with. Is truer in his case than as true as

anybody you've ever heard it applied to. I think you have exhibited great objectivity in citing your comments of the material I've just presented as the possibility of a suicide. For me, I think if I were able to present this information with the paperwork and my sources in the equivalent of a court, I could establish grounds for murder, but only with circumstantial evidence. circumstantial evidence in enough volume and character has gotten people hung in this world. But yes, can I say definitively? No, I wasn't there. It's just that this is what everything points me toward.

And if ultimately this becomes a play, I think it's fair to say that I would write it from the point of view of somebody who appreciated that they had been murdered. obviously in that netherworld of fantasy of contemplating, you know, a theater piece based on the memories and impressions and observations of somebody who is now in that very special state we would call dead would necessitate many people saying, well, I will definitely take this with a grain of salt. Well, any good theater goer. The other thought that came to mind is over the decades, various scripts have come to me, obviously, for different treatments on film tellings of the UFO story, and that's where we see the great

majority of them over time. And a handful, maybe seven or eight treatments over the decades for plays or attempts at plays. There's only one that I've read that I thought was brilliantly successful, and that is Marty Martin's great play, which is about the summer of 1947 and splits itself back and forth between Washington and Roswell. Marty is a very accomplished and highly respected playwright, a good friend, one of the great men of the theater that I know. And we actually produced that play several times in Roswell with a very fine professional and mixed amateur cast.

I would like to see it produced in New York, at least off Broadway. I think it's a fine play. theater goers and the subject of UFOs, I've never seen them entangle in any meaningful manner. And there's so much wonderful opportunities for telling stories in play form. Again, I could have easily just as easily said, you know, my epiphany last week was that I should make this into a film script. That is a bird of a whole different color. And the fact is, I first published my findings on Forrestall online. more than a dozen years ago, they're out there.

Somebody could grab the material I researched and other people have researched and bring it into a film treatment. I would like to be part of something like that in future, but this is not the time nor the project. Right, right. And I think, again, it's that idea of a character exploration. And the thing I have found most challenging as a playwright and also as a UFO researcher is that entanglement, Peter. It's so hard to bring such a, you know, forget the pun, like an out-there topic onto a grounded stage. And the only way to do that, I firmly believe, is to focus on the individual having the experience or being a part of it. And in terms of this, again, if we are to link Forrestall with the UFO topic, is him, him, him, first and foremost.

this incredible, charismatic, brilliant individual and what he may have been told, you know, that caused this breakdown and the aftermath of that. Yeah, I think this is a perfect thing for this stage. Could it work on film? Absolutely. Anything can work on film. But I think this is a very interesting way to go. Again, I respect the hell out of Marty Martin. and I would love to see he and you work on this together, to be honest.

And, hey, I could always come in to play one of the custodians at the hospital or something. I haven't given up on acting yet, my man. No, don't. I guess my overriding concern is I've worked really hard over the years, certainly have fallen on my face and very publicly regarding things that I presented as truthful that I later learned were not. If this story is taken into a theatrical context, people will always be able to say, well, you know, he obviously had to make certain things up or take guesses that may or may not

have been true. And, you know, if he's lending his research talents to the theater, I'm going to have to, you know, be a little more circumspect in his other work because who knows, maybe it'll blow back there and he won't be. Well, obviously, that's not. the way I work, but I know the first things I have to do and find the time to do, if this piece moves beyond the form that it's in now, is reread the entire Forrestall Diaries, reread Professor Rogo's book. And equally as important, there is one wonderful, brilliantly researched in print

biography on Forrestall called Driven Patriot that I need to reread in detail. It deals with, of course, nothing remotely related to UFOs, but the authors are superb. Douglas Brinkley, one of America's most respected historians, and I believe a Pulitzer Prize winner, may be wrong there. His co-author and talk about serendipitous coincidences and just missing getting that ring. It was written by a man named Townsend Hoops. Hoops, I think, rose to the level of Undersecretary of Air Force, but began at the Pentagon in his 20s working in James Forrestall's office, so actually had contact with him. And then after retiring, taught history at Georgetown. It turned out, and this goes back some years ago, that in discussing my general research on Forrestall with a dear friend, Sandra Wright, gone now, but a wonderful woman who was very close to Lawrence Rockefeller and Marie.

Galbraith, wife then of our secretary to our ambassador of France and daughter-in-law of the great economist, Sandy had worked with Lawrence and Marie in pulling together and making a reality an extraordinary document called UFOs the Best Evidence, which was printed in a very limited addition and presented to all members of Congress, world leaders, cabinet level officials, etc. Anyway, one thing would lead to another, and she mentioned to me that Hoops had written this book that I had but didn't make the connection and should have because it's a very unusual name. And I knew towns and hoops in a wonderfully superficial way for some years because he was on the board of the mirror repertory company. And several times a year, in tuxedos at openings, we would make small talk about theater.

And I had no idea that he knew or had worked with Forrestall. And right then and there, Sandy called Mr. Hoops and his wife and got her on the phone. And I realized within seconds she was talking to Mrs. Hoops and that something was very wrong. And indeed it was. Townsend was very far along in dying from the cancer that would kill him shortly after. So I missed that opportunity. But for anybody generally interested in the life of John's, James Forrestall, I can recommend this book without reservation. It's called Driven Patriot,

The Life and Times of James Forrestall. It's published by the Naval Institute Press and can be ordered online. First of all, I can't thank you enough for doing this for us today. Your voice must be strained beyond comprehension at this point. I mean, you sound pretty clear to me still, so kudos to you, my friend. But in terms of that, I think what you are contributing to the installment of works done on James Forrestall is amazing. And I think that this contribution is going to bring to light some extremely interesting revelations, no matter which medium you choose to put this into. But I'm excited, first and foremost, for it to possibly be a play. But I will take it no matter what it is.

Well, thank you, Ryan, for the opportunity for me to be able to be able to be able to to hear myself do this in a manner where I can relax in my office, but I'm speaking to any number of people, some genuine friends, all people who listen to your show. I'm looking for feedback on this. Again, it's still a work in progress. I hope that people learn something from it, and in a manner I don't usually put forward after giving a quote-unquote UFO talk, dark and unhappy. as this story ends. I hope people enjoy it for what it is. Peter, where can we send that feedback, if possible? Where can listeners contact you? Oh, really simple. They are welcome to get my email address from you. If we're friends on Facebook,

you can always send it as a Facebook message. But right now, they can do it right through you or on Facebook or whenever I'm on the air and just ask that question. Perfect. I am honored to be a conduit. it for that. So I will definitely give that out to my listeners, if they so choose to. Peter, an incredible story about an incredible man brought to us by another incredible individual. So again, thank you so much for joining me on Somewhere in the Skies. You're welcome and thank you. Of course, and lights fade to black. That is it for this two-part series on the extraordinary life and strange death of James Forrestall. I have to thank Peter Robbins once again for sharing this

incredible story with us. If you'd like to contact Peter personally, head on over to Somewhere in the skies.com and use the contact tab. I'll then give you his contact info. Please, if you haven't already, subscribe, rate, and review Summer in the Skies on iTunes, or wherever you may listen from. It helps us gain new listeners and ask new questions. We're on Twitter at Summer Skies and Instagram at Summer Skies pod. The Summer in the Sky's store is open for business at tepublic.com. Just search for the Spreg 51 store. All types of designs and items are now available. If you'd like to support the show and receive bonus content and episodes, head on over to the official Patreon campaign. Your monthly donations help the show

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