Somewhere in the Skies - The Phenomenon

Episode Date: November 14, 2020

On episode 187 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, we are joined by James Fox, the creator and director of the #1 documentary in the wold right now, The Phenomenon. We get the inside story on the tenuous decade-long journey it took to make the film, the extraordinary interviews and testimony brought forward, and how the film is impacting not just the United States government and military, but the world overall. Fox also answers your listener questions and hints at what may be coming next as we continue to experience and study The Phenomenon. Rent or Buy The Phenomenon by CLICKING HERE  Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com YouTube Channel: CLICK HERE Official Store: CLICK HERE Order Ryan's Book by CLICKING HERE Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Watch Mysteries Decoded for free at www.CWseed.com Episode edited by Jane Palomera Moore Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES is part of the eOne podcast network. To learn more, CLICK HERE Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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live only on Netflix. Saturday, May 16th at 9 p.m. Eastern Center time, 6 p.m. Pacific time. What's up, guys, Ryan Sprag here, and I'm just dropping in to remind you about our Patreon campaign. Somewhere in the skies is always free to. consume, but it's not free to create. So if you want to help the show on a monthly basis,

we have tons of rewards for you in return, including shoutouts on the show and website, bonus content and episodes, and free merge. Want to be my guest or pick a topic for the show? You can do that too. So if you'd like to learn more and to help support the show, visit patreon.com slash somewhere skies. Thank you and keep looking up. Today on the show, James Fox, creator and I director of the new documentary, The Phenomenon. Do you think we're ever going to find out what's going on? I know unequivocally that there's something very big that's imminent, and I know that for a fact. I think it's going to come to the form of either a statement or something of that nature,

and I'm very confident that's about as all is I'm going to reveal. It's imminent. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan's bread. Welcome, everyone, to another episode of Somewhere in the Skies. your host, Ryan Sprague. And today we are going to be talking about the number one documentary in the world right now. And that is the phenomenon. And we're going to be talking to the creator and director of the phenomenon. You know him in the UFO world. You know him all around television and everything in between. And that is James Fox. James, thank you so much for joining me today, brother.

Well, it's about time we got to do this, huh? I know. I feel like I'm the last person on the planet to interview you. But hey, you're season now. We can really let, you know, let loose. And you can tell me some stuff that you haven't told anyone else. How does that sound? Hopefully I don't sound like I'm on autopilot. No, I'll give you, I'm definitely here to give you good new, you know, fresh information on because there's so much to talk about I could go on for weeks.

I know, man. I know. And that's one of my questions because I know after having spoken to you at length while the process of this filming was going on. so much wasn't in the film for the final cut. So we'll get to that. But before we even talk about the phenomenon, I got to ask you, how does it feel to finally have this done? We have been waiting just as long as you have,

but probably even longer for a film like this to come around in this medium. So, yeah, how does it feel, man, to finally have it out there? You know, that's a good question. And I thought that I would feel, happier about it. And I don't give me wrong, I'm very happy with the film, the end result of the film, but the level of trauma that I experienced in getting this film out. And remember, it was incredibly challenged, just challenging, producing a documentary, especially a documentary on UFOs. Then you're talking about a documentary that deals with, you know, alleged close encounters of the

third kind. So I had like all the worries of associations with. was very high-level government and military officials that I was terribly concerned. We're going to pull out the carpet out from under me once they realized they were connected to a film that deals with alleged telepathic communication with beans on the ground in Africa with the students. So I had all that in the back of my mind the whole time. Like I have to get approval and these guys have to sign. So that was a lot of course.

And then Corona hit. As soon as the contracts had the ink dry to the contract for the film to be distributed in like 1,500 meters across America. which was been my goal since I was 25 years old, to that stamp of validation of having a documentary on the topic of UFOs in theaters. That was like, yes. And then COVID did. So I didn't get that rollout, that red carpet rollout,

and sit, honestly, in a theater with an audience of people, and you get that sense of completion, you know, and I never got that. And so people think it's funny when I ask them, you know, well, you know, I really love your movie. Well, hey, I'd love to hear about it. Tell me, what be your favorite part. Like, I never got that.

You know what I mean? I never sat in a room. You got to see people's reactions of all this hard work. I felt, you know, I know a lot of people have been deprived of a lot of stuff during these incredibly challenging times. So I don't want to sound like I'm complaining. But I never got that full satisfied moment of looking around a room of an audience of viewers and getting this satisfaction of getting their feedback, their response

in real sense. So how do I feel? I'm really happy with the end result and I haven't quite soaked it up yet. Yeah. Hey, man. I mean, again, this is probably the most tumultuous time. Either of us will see in our lifetimes, you know, with everything going on in the world, in our country.

And for the film to come out right now, I understand. understand. It's a little bittersweet. Again, it did hit number one, which is incredible. But is there a possibility that we could see it in theaters once things kind of go back to normal, as people are calling it? There is definitely, we're having discussions about a limited theatrical rollout in 2021. There's a couple of people that were in talks with about it. So yeah, that's definitely on the drawing board. And one of the things that I would like to personally make happen is I want to do around the world tour.

I want to go and have a massive screening in Africa. You know, Europe, Australia, South America, you know, China, a lot of the places that we film and certain venues within the United States as well. So I'm definitely planning on doing something like that. But on top of that, there's discussion of getting in to some actual movie theaters. So the answer to your question is most probably yes.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, let's dive into the film because we have a lot of listener questions as well. But I want to get to what I kind of personally found really interesting in the film. And that was your discussions with people who worked for Project Blue Book. I mean, rarely do we get this much of a glimpse into the work and lives of those who worked for the most visible, UFO program within the government within the U.S. Air Force Project Blue Book. And the first person you interviewed was William T. Coleman, the public information officer for Project Blue Book. And he had some really interesting things to say, what was it like interviewing him? And yeah,

what did you take away from what he had to tell you, James? Well, I was shocked that he had never done a proper 60-minute style sit-down interview with really good lighting and really good audio to tell his story because Colonel William Coleman had one of the most dramatic UFO. And listen, I've heard

a lot of UFO encounters, okay? Colonel Coleman, in my opinion, had one of the most dramatic UFO encounters I've ever heard. And I don't know if your audience wants me to go into a little bit of it or not, but basically... Yeah, let's do it. Okay, so yeah,

So the duration of this encounter was roughly nine minutes. It started off at an elevation of 9,000 feet. He was in a B-25. It was 195 over Alabama. He had three other people in the plane with him. There were engineers from Lockheed Martin in Boeing. And they started, like I said, they started the encounter at 9,000 feet. It ended up at maximum continuous power at treetop level.

And I said to him, what do you mean by maximum continuous power? and he goes, if I went any faster, the engines would blow up. And he literally said he's chasing this disc, and they're all looking at this thing in broad daylight. They thought they're going to collide with it. He had to take evasive action, and he was so low that if he turned, he was going to dip the wing into the trees, and so he had to pull up and lost sight it for a moment.

But to hear this guy's encounter, a lot of times people think UFO encounters some blurry light off in the distance. But, you know, when you get an encounter with qualified observers, engineers, pilots, you know, proximity of, like, thought we were going to hit this thing, looking at it going, there's no exhaust vents, there's no wings, there are no tail, there's how this thing flying, you know. And it was truly spectacular to hear it from the horse's mouth.

And then on top of that, to hear him describe that once the Air Force put him as public spokesman for Project Blue Book, which was the investigatory arm of the Air Force for investigating UFOs, what's the first thing he did? He went to find his report because when they landed in 1955, Project Blue Book was in full effect, and they all took detailed, you know, notes, they filled out forms and, you know, detailed statements of the encounter. And one of the things that the Project Blue Book people at the time had said, which he shared with us, was that all, they were shocked at how identical everyone's description of the encounter was. And, of course, once he got put in charge, public spokesman for Project Blue Book, first thing he did was went to find his own citing report,

and it wasn't there. Oh, man. Yeah. And now, was this, correct me if I'm wrong, this was one of the times in the film that you had a, a recreation and you actually filmed from within a bomber. Is this right? Yes. Yes. So it was really funny. Least people helped find that bomber. And I knew at the time when I interviewed him in Florida, I turned to my buddy, Dave West, who's the cameraman, and we looked at each other and we went, we're getting a V2-5 and we're going to do a recreation

because this is the most incredible encounter I've ever heard. And I want this to be the start of the whole movie. I want it to be sort of the cold open, the James Bond signing. And when we found a couple of B-2-5 bombers from World War II era, I think I either called the guy. I'm pretty sure I called him because Lee Spiegel had organized, putting me in touch with these people, as well as Dave West. And I said, hey, guys, if you guys can't fly. I just want to get something out of the way right off the bat here. If you can't fly at tree-tops maximum speed, they've got to go somewhere else. And this guy goes, yeah, I think we can do that.

Oh man, that's when you got out. You're the stunt people, right? It was crazy. I was sitting in the nose cone. I had to crawl through the cylinder, this long, like, polished cylinder, like squeaked my way through here, and then I just ended up in this little glass bubble with a gunner, with like where the gunner would sit,

and just glass between me and certain death. And what I was a really, weird feeling, you know, it was really exciting and scary and all the rest of it, but what a cool, I don't hear people mention that section of the film as often as I was expecting, but that's a really, really amazing encounter, and I felt that it was a pretty good within, you know, budgetary expectations of recreation. Absolutely. Yeah, it brought so much to the film. And I guess while we're on the subject of Project Blue Book, which is a big part of, I guess, as a playwright, I would say the first act of the play. We'll get to the second act, but maybe the first act of a film. Let's talk about Robert Friend. I mean, probably the most likable person to ever have worked with the U.S. Air Force. I mean, the smile on this guy is so endearing. And you got to interview him. And you were probably one of the last people to ever do that because he unfortunately, passed away not too long after you had interviewed him.

And he is probably the one person who worked for Blue Book other than probably Rupelt, who really, really tried to get to the truth instead of having the Air Force tell them what to tell the public with this project Blue Book. So what was it like interviewing Robert? And yeah, any interesting stories to tell about that experience? Definitely. So I'll start off with Jacques Valets. and it was such a privilege and an honor to work with Jacques.

And Jacques helped us assemble the pieces of the puzzle together historically in a way that according to historians, it's never been done before. Jacques did a lot of that, so he knew. And Jacques, ironically, his favorite scene in the whole movie, and he loves a lot of him, he loves all of it. But his favorite scene of the whole movie is this smile from Robert Friend, when I think he says, you know, we didn't know what they were or something. I said, oh, so you guys closed it because you didn't know what they were?

And he looks at me and he goes, or we closed Project Bluebird because we did know. And he gives this sort of smile and it's like this little thing that was awesome. Really powerful. See, really, really a poignant moment. So just that look at his eye says. so much. And Jacques just, he was like, that's my favorite part of the movie. I mean, loves the children at the end

too, but Jack, that part in particular and there are a handful of people that that do comment on that. Again, not as many as I expected, but yeah, that's a beautiful telling moment in the film. Absolutely. And I think that's what really shown through in the

film, James, is this isn't surface level. I worked for Blue Book. Yeah, we investigated UFOs. He tried to get to the heart of these people who were dramatically affected by the work they did. Whether they believed anything was of extraterrestrial origin or not or multi-dimensional,

whatever they think the source of UFOs are or armed, it affects them. And I mean, that couldn't be more true than probably my favorite part of the film, and that was the Sikoro case. I know this is one of those cases that you've chased for so long, a lot of us have. and man, did you get to the part of this one?

You spoke to his wife, Lonis Amora. So I guess for maybe some of our listeners who aren't aware of the case, could you maybe just give us the brief rundown of the Securo case? And then the stuff you found from the National Archives, these letters, yeah, please, please enlighten us on this entire event. This is funny because this happened in 1964, April 24th, at roughly 5 p.m. in Socorro, New Mexico, which is about 44 miles away from Trinity site where they detonated the first atomic bomb in 1945. So you've got a police officer, Long as Amora, who witnesses a strange object in the sky,

it's sort of a flash that catches his eye when he's in hot pursuit of a speeding vehicle. It's a Friday. He discontinues his pursuit of the speeding vehicle and goes to, to investigate what this potential light explosion or whatever it was, he thought there was a dynamite shack up in the hill. He thought, but maybe the dynamite shack stopped off. He didn't know. And he came across an object in the Royal that he initially was like, is that a car, is that a roll off down into the ravine?

And like, are those two children? Like, what am I looking at? He slowly came to the realization and looking at something, otherworldly. It's an egg-shaped craft, and there were two beans, small diminutive figures in white suits, standing and sort of walking around the bottom of this egg-shaped craft. He got eye contact with one of them.

He was still sitting in his car, and he was a couple hundred yards away, and he was leaning out the window with the car stop, and he's looking at him, and one of them, look I sat down with his wife and she had an article that no one has ever seen that says he was actually calling out to see if they were okay and that one of them turned and looked him in the eye but that's that we don't know that for sure but we do know for sure is that one of the beings turned and looked him right in the eye Lonnie then drove his car a little further around this little bend to get a closer look and he got within 50 feet of the landed UFO and as his car pulled up he heard a big thump sound he said it reminded him of a of a tank hatch closing. He was in the military. And he didn't see the beings anymore. And then he took two or three strides out of the car towards his object, putting him roughly 35 feet away, 35, 40 feet away. And it suddenly made a loud noise and a blue flame, and this is very important,

this blue flame came out the bottom of this egg. And it went in the ground like a knife through warm butter. It didn't stir up the dust and rocks like a propulsion, you know, conventional propulsion rocket would do. It went into the ground, like without disturbing the ground, a blue flame. And the object lifted up and making a loud noise until it got to about 20 feet off the ground, at which point it went completely silent and the blue flame was gone. And then it just sat there motionless, you know, he said you could hear pin drop. It had a symbol on the side of it, which I'll get into detail on that in a second. And then it flew off to, I think it was the southwest,

over a place called Magdalena. In any case, first police officer get on the scene, the prints in the ground from the landing gear, there were prints from the footprints of the two beings, exactly where Lonnie had said he'd seen them, corresponding to that. There was burn marks and the plants are still smoldering from the propulsion. whatever this thing was.

And there were military officers on the scene within an hour, Richard T. Holder. They documented the entire landing site. They roped the area off. And it's considered the most credible, well-documented close encounter of the third kind in U.S. history. And the police officer, Larnie Zamora, everybody believed him. I mean, he was one of the most, he was rock-solid witness. But let me, I investigated the case really, really thoroughly, really thoroughly over about a five-year period. I went and got to know, and getting into Zocoro and getting into that tight-knit community was not an easy thing to do.

I befriended one person who then eventually introduced me to Lonnie's wife, Mary, you know, kind of got, became friends with her. I eventually bought their truck, which I have in California now, became really good friends. and then she introduced me to his co-worker that he worked out at the dump site for years. I got him on camera. I went to, I interviewed his daughter, Diane, which unfortunately, that part of the interview for whatever reason ended up on the interim floor. I met with his son Michael. They all confirmed for me that two things.

One, his wife said he was never the same after that day. and his daughter said the one thing that he confirmed unequivocally is that the Air Force really, really didn't want him to talk about it, especially the aspect of the encounter that involved the beans. Because it's one thing to be unable to identify, you know, an airborne object is another thing when you've got beans on the ground. So that aspect of the encounter was really downplayed. within the Air Force Project Blue Book Files. But when I went to the National Archives with the guy who wrote the book on the case,

Ray Stanford, a Socorro Saucer in a Pentagon pantry, it's the definitive book on the case. I went and stayed with Ray for like five days in the East Coast. It was really funny, you know. And Ray had like the rocks from the landing gear,

from the rocks breaking, and had the landing gear scraping up against the rocks. He talked about these pieces of metal shavings. It came, I mean, this whole aspect of it didn't end up in the movie, But I said, Ray, you know, we're not very far from the National Archives. Let's go. See what we can find.

And he had so much resistance. He was like, James, that's going to be an utter and complete waste of time. Anything that could have been found 50 years ago, it was already found. And we got this kind of argument. I was like, well, that kind of, you know, attitude. Yeah, nothing is going to be found. I said, well, I'm going. And he said, fine, you go.

We got kind of an argument. And I stomped out of his house. I dumped in my rent-a car. I started to back out of the driveway, and I see his face look out the curtains from the kitchen or from the living room, and he kind of peers out. He looks at me and he gives me this like, just hold up, just wait a minute. So he comes out and he goes, okay, I'll come with you, but I'm taking my own car because after 10 or 15 minutes, I'll be thoroughly, you know, just done with the whole prospect of finding anything. I said, fine. So he jumped in his car.

I've done to my car and off he went. Well, without boring your audience to death with the details, Suffice to say, we eventually get the manager and we're like, look, we've been on this floor, we've been on that floor, we get microfilms. This guy right here, Ray Stanford, was at this landing site, was at this location, investigated personally in this case, and we know there's a lot of documentation that's just simply not in the microfilm files, and we're not finding it. And he goes, okay, I'll tell you what, you guys go get some lunch. Let me see what I can do about this.

Come back in 20 minutes. We're half an hour where it was. So Ray and I kind of looked at each other, we're like, okay, this is kind of exciting. So off we go. We have us in lunch. We come back. Out this man comes with a cart on wheels, all these folders, all original Project Blue Book folders, okay? Not microfilms, not copies, all originals.

When this cart rolled out, there was a golden glow around it. I mean, I'm not kidding you. It was like, oh, and it comes out, and Ray and I looked at each other. We were like giddy as kids on Christmas morning. Like, we couldn't believe it. Ray looked at me, and I looked at him, and we both were like, oh, my God, I can't believe this happening.

So we like, go back, we get this whole thing, and we're like, oh, my God. We're like, take this out, and they're like, okay, well, you got to put some gloves on, and you've got to sit down, and you've got to take one paper out and put her, you know, a placement holder, and we're like, Jesus,

It's going to take forever. Got to walk that paper over to a printing or make a copy. And we're like, there's got to be a faster way. Well, I had gone back and I was thinking to myself, well, hell, we got the originals. I'm going to go back to 1952 and see what I got, Project Blue Book. So I went back to the desk and I said, hey, we loved, if you wouldn't mind terribly, we'd love the Project Blue Book Pilots from 1952 because I was like, what the hell we're going to uncover from the 1952 signing statements from the pilots?

Like, come on. So she goes, actually, you know, we kind of made a mistake. We weren't supposed to give the originals. But since you have them, you guys can have them until we close. I said, well, okay, well, I take what we can get. I said, well, is there a faster way to do this? She's like, well, you can go get your own flatbed scanner and you can bring it to, you know. So I said, Ray, wait here.

I went off to an office depot. I got myself a big, glass flatbed scanner. Boom. set that thing up. We were like a well-lobed machine. We were going through there. All the people I look over, and we've been there for like five hours, right? We're going to go there until the sun was down, till they were locking us out. I look over at Ray, and Ray is holding this document. He's sitting right next to me. He's holding this document, and he's got a tear in his eye, and he goes, I found it.

I found it. I said, what, Ray, what? He goes, oh, my God, it's in Dr. Heine's own handwriting. He goes, the symbol, the symbol has been a point of contention for all these decades. For 50 years, he's been telling people have been telling him he's full of doggie doo. What happened was the initial symbol that was seen on the side of the craft that was rather large in red. And remember, Lonnie came within 35 to 40 feet from this object that was sitting on the ground, okay? He saw this thing really well. Well, when the first military officer got on the scene, Richard T. Holder, he was like, look, we got to change, we got to obfuscate. We got to change this symbol and say it's something else so we can immediately identify any hoaxers that are saying, hey, we saw the same thing.

They would know immediately it was a hoax. So they went from the symbol, the real symbol, was an inverted V. I don't know why they don't just say an A, but it was an inverted V, okay, like this, with a line here, a line here, and one line at the top. That was the original. So it's like this with lines, two lines here, and then one across the top, right? And Ray has been saying this for decades. For 50 years he's been saying this. And no one's really believed in them.

All this controversy is willing. Even Kevin Randall wrote his book and didn't put the real symbol in. And I had kind of an issue about that. But in any case, we found it. And not only did we find it, we found it in Dr. Heinex's own handwriting. And he didn't like describe the symbol. He actually drew it. So, yeah, I know.

It was a huge fine, like a huge big deal. And that document didn't even end up in the movie. Can you believe that? I know. It's unbelievable. I know. I know. Believe me, I know.

But I'm telling you, I'm telling you, we had a screening of the film multiple times, and the last screening I had of the movie. I spent a month in China. I went to South America. I've been investigating the Virginia landing crash case from 1996, which is largely considered the Roswell of Brazil. I couldn't get it all into one movie.

I just simply couldn't do it. And so we had a live screening of about 200, maybe 170 to 200 people in a theater. When we had a rough cut with my voice, Peter Coyote hadn't laid his tracks yet. And I can tell I'm the director, man. I look around, I know when people are losing interest. And after the two-hour mark,

people were kind of like looking at their watches and adjusting their seats. Some people were going to the bathroom. I was like, ah, yeah, I got to cut this, I got to cut this stuff down. And so I was, we were brutal about it. And there were times, excuse me, in the edit room, I'm not kidding you, one time in particular, I had a whole block of stuff in the timeline that you know, had an editor and software it works. You got a timeline, you got your video clips, your audio clips, things of that, your special effects, filters, whatnot. And you have multiple backups of the timeline. But there was

a one section of the timelines, like, you know, big, look, to the, It must have represented like two years of work, maybe two and a half years of work. And I had to close my eyes and delete it. And it was literally like a gut punch. Like I, of course, nobody misses it because they don't know what was in there. But for me, nobody was into getting all that stuff. It was like literally when I hit the delete button, I went, oh. You know, like, oh, it was a physical like, ugh.

But we had to do what's called killing your darlings in theater. know, the film had to have to continue, you know, we did what we had to do. And so a lot of stuff. I get it, man. Well, I was going to say, I'm a playwright. And that was one of the first things we learned in my playwriting courses. Instead of kill your darlings, my professor said, kill your babies, which was a little controversial.

But it's true, man. It's not easy. It's not easy to work so hard to, to, you know, spend all that time on something and know that you can't make. a five-hour film. Like, that would be a series, which we'll get to. I know there's maybe some some inklings of something like that, but, dude, I get it. Varhinia is one of the most amazing cases. I know how much you hold that one close. So that had to be really hard. I understand. Oh, my God. I was knocking on doors in the town of Virginia, going to the town square,

following leads. Like, I'm telling you, man, you have no idea how hard I worked in Virginia. and I remember this sound guy from Sao Paulo, you know, pronounce you right. People are getting me like, I'm the crazy American investigator, is like, what do you do? You can't just knock on people. You're out of your mind?

Like, you can't just ask random strangers in the street? I was like, I did it. I got results. I'll never forget when we interviewed the sister of the military police officer, Marco Choresi, who died after allegedly handling one of these beings.

I'm interviewing the sister and there was her husband, like literally standing 50 feet away. I could tell her husband wanted nothing to do with her going on camera. I mean, nothing to do with it. Like you could tell this has been a major issue within the family, within the town, within the, and to do her brother justice, she'd be to go on camera. I remember this, I remember this Brazilian, you know, Sam guy kind of looked over me and he goes, you got to be the luckiest bastard they ever bad because we were literally knocking on doors. Well, that didn't entire film, that section of the movie, sorry, gone.

So, it's hard, it's hard, I know. Well, I guess kind of wrapping up Socorro, there is one more aspect to that that I'd love to talk you about, James. And this actually, this came from one of your editors and your producers who told me this little tidbit, if you're willing to talk to us about it, these letters that were written to Lonnie Zemora at the time.

First of all, I mean, like you mentioned earlier, this event was not a positive aftermath for this guy. It went into his career, his reputation. Was not a career-enhancing move. Exactly. And, I mean, there were two times in the film that I actually cried, and that was one of them. When I heard in his own voice say,

this, like, ruined my life, that hit me. And then there's another part, which we'll get to you, that made me blubber a little, but the letters. All these letters were written to him, and supposedly he didn't write anyone back, but there was one letter that he did write a response to, and you were able to locate that. Is that something you're willing to tell us here on the air?

So I, let's see, how can I phrase this without going beyond my comfort zone here? I interviewed Lonnie's co-worker at the dump. I think they worked together for 30 years. I'd have to look at that to know for sure. And it was very, very difficult to get this guy to go on camera. I mean, extremely difficult. I mean, it took, like, locals really work in this guy. And he finally agreed.

And we had no idea, honestly, what he was going to reveal on camera. Of course, that interview didn't end up in the movie either. Unbelievable. And he has since died. So as Mary has died. I'm not sure if the local sheriff that I interviewed has died yet or not, but I interviewed him in the ICU. That ended up on the room floor. But anyway, we basically learned that there was possibly some evidence that could still be in Lonnie's house.

In lieu of calling, I went there physically and I talked to his wife, Mary, and I, told, shared with her the news that I had. And then I offered to rent her house for a couple of weeks and basically turned it upside down, which I did. And if I told your audience, the lengths of which I went to to find said evidence, we'd be here all night. But suffice to say, I do not give up easily. Okay. I turned that place upside down. In the process, I found a black duffel bag.

in his police locker in a in a in a shack um shed outside away from the house and inside was meticulous keepings of newspaper clippel clippings articles um letters of correspondence uh most of which were never even opened some of them were opened clearly not responded to um and i asked mary i shared with Mary what we'd found. And look, one of the things that was, so many people responded from all around the world. Like, I just simply couldn't believe how many letters Lonnie had in this. And he had meticulously kept them clearly.

He'd put him all in one spot. And then, as I said earlier, the Air Force did a really good job at getting him to downplay the aspect of the close encounter of the third kind, describing the beans. And that was something that. that Richard, even Richard T. Holder, it said to him very early on, you know, they took him into the interrogation room. I don't think he got out there to about 1 o'clock in the morning. The sighting happened at 5. The military showed up at about 6. And his wife said he came home and he was white as a sheet, you know, and didn't want to talk about it.

But in any case, before the military had gotten on the scene, there were local police officers and other people that got to hear the unfiltered account of the beans and all this other stuff. And so that got out and was published in some of the local newspapers. Lonnie had cut those out and had kept them really special in this little collection of things. And so you'll see when you watch the movie, there's those descriptions of the beans and the fact that one of them looked right at them and all that stuff that probably would have just been forgotten. I had not been for obviously Ray Stanford and those little clippings. but also letters from from around the world of people that seen similar things. There were also many references to people submitting photographs in the letters, okay?

And I'm going, why would you, it would say stuff like, in closed, please find, you know, four photographs of an object very similar to what you described. I took them in L.A. I took them in here. Like I got a number of those letters. I'm thinking to myself, why are the thing is opened and there are no photographs in any of these envelopes? Well, I talked to his wife, Mary, and Mary said that he had an ongoing relationship with the Air Force. They would come back and check in on him, call him. You know, there was a correspondence that went on for quite some time.

And I'm convinced, based on what I saw, that I know you asked me about a specific other letter that he did respond to, but I will say that I'm convinced that people sent him photographs of similar objects because he was like the epicenter of UFO sightings in America at the time. In fact, probably the world because it got so much attention and that he gave those photographs over to the Air Force. Because why else would someone say here, police flying and closed these photographs of, you know, on a couple of occasions in letters and there's no photographs?

Like what else? Give me another explanation. Yeah. Wow. Well, yep, I mean, again, like, that's the thing. When it comes to these cases, you know, they happen, but then things continue after that. So the fact that they buddied up to him and probably confiscated those photos says a lot.

And again, we won't go into all the specifics, but it was a very powerful part of the film. Oh, thank you. One of my favorite parts, too. One more thing I want to mention in this audience out there. This is something that I exhausted every possible avenue, And again, I can remind your viewers, if I told you the level of detail that I went after some of this footage I'm about to mention to you, we'd be here all night and your eyes would glaze over. But suffice to say, I came across at the National Archives before I met with Mary Azamora, I came across letters from Kintanilla, Kintanilla, who was a Project Blue Book manager or chief project officer at Project Blue Book at Ryan Stamor.

Space in Dayton, Ohio at the time, okay? Well, it came to my attention that through Kintanilla, Kintanilla, and Dr. Heineck, through letters of correspondence, which I still have today, that there was a film crew that came to Socorro in, I believe it was May of 1965, but honestly, I'm not exactly sure of that day, but it was months after the siting. In fact, I think it was under a year. The film was referred to in Air Force memos. Air Force letters of correspondence between Heinek. And basically what was said was,

Keentinella said, you know, it's come to my attention that there's a film crew. It's coming to Socorro and that Lonnie Zamora is going to participate in this film. And we really don't want that. Like, I'm really concerned. It's going to open up a whole number. new the floodgate of inquiries and we don't want that he goes it would be too obvious for me to

go through sacorro but why don't you be passing through and just stop by and pay a visit and find out what the hell's going on is lonnie really doing this so i was like wow that's interesting i haven't heard about that case well then uh i even have the the return response letter from dr hynick who says to kintanilla hey i'm i'm here i am sitting down in uh securora new mexico with all the key players and the only thing missing is the UFO got a you know ha ha and uh and confirmed that lonnie was indeed participating with the film but that's all i knew when i came across this duffel bag at loni's house newspaper clippings cut out and i got the details of this film and it was a film called UFO it was called um uh phenomena 7.7 phenomena 7.7 and the interest was was we were

going to call this film initially 701, right? Right. Right. The one is representative number of cases after 12,000, I think, 618 UFO cases investigated by the United States. Therefore, 7.01 remained unexplained. That was like, it's symbolic of the stubborn, you know, 5, 10, 15% of UFO reports that after careful scientific examination, defy a terrestrial explanation.

So it's symbolic that number 7.01. Well, Phenomenon 7.7, the producers were Empire Studios, Michael Musto, and a guy named Dr. Frank Stranges. And I was like, oh, okay. And he was like, well, we're calling it Phenomena 7.7 because in 1965, out of this many cases, you know, seven, yeah, it was like 7 whatever percent was unexplained. But anyway, it was very kind of similar to, you know, what we were initially called. That's interesting. So they came, I find out that Lonnie participates in this film in 1965 from Empire Studios with the director and producer Michael Musto and Dr. Frank Stranges.

Well, I couldn't find Michael Musto, but I found Dr. Frank Stranges. And I looked him up and he had just passed, unfortunately. But I wanted to find where this movie was, okay? and I read more articles about it and that basically the movie was going to be premiered and it look it was shot on 16mm color and it was documented the entire like all the witnesses Lonnie Zamora on camera no one's ever seen it and so I was like dying to get my hands on this thing and I looked up Empire Studios I got a hold of Dr. Frank Strange's wife Julie and Julie had some medical issues at the time and she was still, you know, very devastated by the passing of her husband,

Frank, and I befriended her. It took me about a year, but then I went through, you know, with her blessing. I went through his storage facilities, which were in Los Angeles that were, you know, boxes stacked at the ceiling and all these at 100 degree temperature heat with no ventilation and no windows and going in there and going through hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of, of boxes from top to bottom looking for a copy of this film. And she kept telling, I know it's here somewhere, and I must have spent two weeks looking for this thing. Coring sweat, can't breathe, couldn't find it.

Then I did research on Empire Studios. It had gone bankrupt. It was purchased by some other company. I contacted that company. I had people go into the archives there. Oh, my God. Long story short, after five years, I gave up, and I never found the film.

And I'm going to ask your audience to be patient with me, but I think it's called Phenomenon 7.7. I'm 99% sure. So if anyone ever hears of it or can continue that effort to find it, you'll find 16-millimeter color interviews, professionally shot with a budget from Empire Studios in 1965 of one of the most compelling and well-documented UFO close encounters of the third kind in Sucorne, New Mexico. But I was unable to get my hands on it.

You did the dirty work, James. Now it's time for someone else to continue that. So any of my viewers or listeners, I know you are all as tenacious as James is. So get out there to look for that film. We need to find that. Well, okay, so kind of moving to the second act of the film, James, because I do want to get to some awesome listener questions with you.

This is what I have sort of coined B, NYT, and A, NYT, before New York Times, after New York Times, which seems to be kind of the, you know, the cusp of UFO disclosure. I hate using that word. I know you do too. But let's talk about that part of the film. The people you interviewed about this story that broke in 2017, exploded all over the world.

And you were able to get access to a lot of people who a lot of journalists have not. And a very few, I should say. That was Senator Harry Reid, Chris Mellon. Tell me. all about this journey in the film. Because this is where it really, really picked up for a lot of, I would say probably the younger people out there who watched the film because this was more modern for them instead of the history lesson of Project Blue Book.

Yeah, tell us all about what you found and what they had to say. Okay, so one thing I'd like to say, establish right out the gate here, is that I understand that, you know, the first part of the film is a sort of history lesson. I went to great lengths to find never before seen archival footage, newsreel footage, stuff that the world has never seen. And I did it because it'll be the last time I ever do it. The first half of the film is done. So the second half of the film is to be taken seriously, to be put into context.

Because if I succeeded with my goal, and quite honestly, it's been a goal that I've had for 26 years, and that is to create the seminal feature-length documentary film on the topic of UFOs that can transcend the whole UFO community and penetrate a much broader global audience that has very little information on this very important topic, in my opinion, than Roswell and Area 51. So that is why I spent as much time as I did on the first half of the film.

I had to put what occurs in the second half in context. I had to walk the audience through, like the history of the phenomenon, the modern day history of the phenomenon in terms of the evolution of, you know, the evolution of policy within the Air Force, how they were trying to deal with this problem. And that was why I did that.

And I've read some, I try not to read reviews, but I feel like, the same old history. It's like, well, I can't change the fact. The history is the history, okay? We focus on some of the more poignant moments of that historical record, and we do so in a way with new fresh archival material.

I know that because I've had even Richard Dolan go, where did you find that? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Right, James. And let me be clear. I mean no, you know, when I say like history lesson, I mean that in the best of ways because I have been investigating and researching this topic since I was 13 years old. And that first half of the film, I learned so much that I never knew. So yeah, please anyone who's, you know, writing reviews saying, I knew all this. I knew all this. No, you didn't. You did not know. about a lot of these things that you were able to find. So, yeah, let's be clear. Yeah, that's, it was needed. And I look, and I had to do it.

I just had to because, like I said, they're not going to, look, I know my reaction when I heard about the Rua case in the 90s, when I was doing a film on UFOs in the 90s. Three years after that case happened, 1997, I'm trying to get an interview with Steven Spielberg, just naive enough at the time to think I could pull it off. and Stephen said, you know, through our mutual friend, Jenny Yang, hey, yeah, I'm going to go ahead and not meet with you,

but I do want you to know there's this case that you should look into since you're doing a UFO film. And it's a landing and a reported closing counter of the third kind. It took place and brought a day later to school in Africa. I'm thinking to myself, yeah, right. How could that happen in the whole world not knew about it? So I knew what I was up against if I wasn't going to believe it to the point where I wouldn't even look into it,

there's no way the general public could have believed that ever happened. So I had to set the film up and jokingly we had this mantra in the edit studio. Where are we going? Road to Rua. Road to Rua. We're in a courtroom. We're presenting our case. And we need to build our case and to get to the point in which the audience may just walk away from watching this film thinking that that incident really did happen.

Now, probably about four and a half years into production, the New York Times story breaks. I kind of knew from previous experiences, you know, you get the valleys and the peaks and the level of interest within the media on the topic. It never goes away totally, but sometimes you have these lull periods. And I've seen that.

It happened with all films I've ever done on the topic, and I've done four. And I jokingly was saying in the studio, hey, you know, it was like, well, how are you to end this movie? I said, well, I don't, you know, I usually there's a sighting that gets promoted. I'm sure something will happen.

You know, it's going to be several years. But I had no idea that the secret Pentagon program, A-TIP, was going to wind up on the front page of the New York Times, and then a household name, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, was going to be the guy who launched it. I mean, my God, that was like the most explosive thing that could have possibly happened. I mean, granted, it added a couple of years of production out of the film,

but my God, what a wonderful thing to have occurred. And everything has changed since then. You asked me how do I know that? It's because I've got people around the world that have been heckling me for decades on my research into this, in my films into this. Less so, you know, more recently. But when that story broke, I had people all over, all over going, maybe you were right. Jesus, James. I can't believe this.

This is amazing. It really changed the climate significantly. And then, of course, we had our primary targets of, you know, Fravor and Mellon and Reed and Lou Elizondo and the New York Times. And, you know, we had to, you know, I'm not kidding when I said, it was at least another two years, at least another two years. And possibly more because when we eventually got an interview with Senator Harry Reid, which was a truly wow moment for me in production,

he dropped a couple of bombshells, which led to us realizing we had other elements of the, the phenomenon that we had to cover in the movie, which added an additional year of production, and that is UFOs and nukes. And, I mean, there were some things that Harry Reid said in your film that instantly went viral, you know, once the film came out and was all over the headlines. And that was pretty interesting, some of the stuff you had to say. Yeah, so I guess kind of wrapping up that part, James, the UFOs and nukes.

This is a very alarming topic within ufology that doesn't get. the credit that it deserves. And I think people like Robert Hastings and Salas and individuals like this coming forward and giving their testimony, hundreds of cases. I mean, you compiled so many of these. And one of my favorite parts was the part that you had

with map the world. How many nukes have been detonated? I won't say anything else, but it gave me chills, man. It gave me chill. You know, I got to plug a couple of people there. Robert Hastings made his entire archive available to us. He worked with me night and day he was absolutely amazing he deserves all the credit for that i mean it was

painstaking and putting that together with with with with with my writer uh partner mark barish who's amazing and and also we have george knapp was working tirelessly behind the scenes to make it harry read on board that was like a window about oh maybe like this i didn't talk to even my partner about it no one no one during negotiations they want to jinx it and it was almost got pulled out from under us the morning of. But yeah, that, you know, you think of UFOs, you know, but then you hear about interacting with our nukes and penetrating extremely sensitive nuclear weapons facilities and shutting them off. Yeah. In some cases, turning them on. That's an intelligence. That's like, whoa, damn. What are they saying to us?

And that was one of my favorite moments, basically, I met with Robert Salas years ago. And he goes, well, the message is pretty clear to me. It's like taking matches out of the hands of a baby, you know. And that was one of the aspects that Senator Reid had shared with me on camera when we were doing a little walk and talk, getting some B-roll in the hallway, which was massive. I mean, I couldn't believe that he didn't reveal it. And I didn't ask during the sit-down, but he did reveal it during the walk-and-talk for the B-roll. And he said that was one of the more alarming aspects of the phenomenon. And that's, you know, that's why we ended up doing the section that we did with the U.S.

and Nukes, which I find it's unbelievable. It is. And I think it's only just begun of what we're going to learn about that part of all of this. But kind of wrapping up my personal questions here, James. Zimbabwe. We have to just cover it briefly. We won't go through the event. And anyone who wants to know about the event, go watch the film.

You cover it in great detail. But what you did is the case involved child witnesses, which is amazing. These cases with children, they make some of the best witnesses because they have no filtering mechanism. They don't have preconceived notions about what they saw. They just tell you what the hell happened. And I wish we had more of those types of people out there. But you caught up with them. You went to Zimbabwe and you interviewed these witnesses, God, decades later.

And that was the other part of the film that made me cry was when you interviewed these people. And all of them, all of them stick to the story, which is incredible. You know, and it shows how much to affect their lives. I get goosebumps just thinking about it. It's the most amazing case I've ever investigated. Absolutely. You know, looking at, at Randall Nickerson, by the way, he's got a film coming out.

One of our co-producers, Dan Farrow, is producing it with Randall. He's been working on it for a long time, and he needs to get credit where credit is due. He's done an extensive research on that case. He was very helpful in locating some of the witnesses today and making that and pulling that off. And look, I had a level of resistance from day one with that case, my investor at the time, this guy, Larry, was just like, you know, you mean to tell me?

I said, I get it. I said, look, I had the same reaction. Just, Larry, hold on. Just please. I said, just look at, you got to just, look at this archive footage of the children being interviewed by a Harvard psychiatrist. Just take a moment, you know, I don't believe. Because, look, it's really hard for anyone to wrap their mind around how a sighting of that significance. You've got a UFO, multiple UFOs,

land in broad daylight during morning recess. There were 100 kids. People often say 66. It was closer to 100 because 66 went on camera. 100 kids in the playground that witness in broad daylight, and the occupants get out and interact telepathically with the kids. And look, you'd go and ask anyone randomly on the street, and on the street corner, they're going to think you're smoking a crack pot.

I mean, honestly, no one's going to believe it. But I'm telling you, when you look at the testimony of the children, then you track them out and you talk to them 20 years later, and then you go to the location in Africa and you meet with more of the students, now young adults, and then the schoolteacher, listen very carefully. At the end of the movie, what Judy Bates says, who's now the headmistress,

you really have to pay attention and listen to what she says because she apologizes to the children for her behavior, at the time, her unwillingness to sort of back the kids up, and then sort of confirms that she was dealing with stuff from her own personal experience of that incident. It's quite remarkable. And a lot of people miss it, but if you listen very carefully to what she says, she's confirming what the kids saw, and she's confirmed in a way that would definitely suggest that she was a witness as well. Absolutely. And I think it's important to also stress this idea that when a child comes to a adult with something like this, of course they try to brush it off.

And so did the news. And this goes for the Westall case, which you cover as well, and a teacher who came forward with that one as well. I wouldn't exactly say he came forward. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. We'll let the viewers debate that. But yeah, I think this idea of children being really good witnesses really shown

through and the messages they were given. Again, there's so much to this case and you cover it so well. So we'll let the viewers look at that. But yeah. Let me say one thing if I may briefly. That was that and

Sikoro were two of the most challenging edits. Clearly there's so much content. You know, like I said, a Sikora, I interviewed the old family and co-workers and local sheriff and all the documentation. I mean, there's only something you could put in, you know, in 10 minutes, 15 minutes. That case, Zimbabwe, Rua, we probably spent over 1,000 editing hours on that piece, and it was pretty good.

And I eventually got a new writing partner, this guy Mark Beres, and he is an incredibly smart and talented guy, who just happened to have worked with John Mack during that time in the 90s and even traveled to Africa with him. That case was very close to his heart. He'd been thinking about it for 20 years. In fact, he founded a company planting trees after he heard about the testimony for the children and the environmental impact and all that stuff. And he's since responsible for planting 10 million trees. That case was so close to him. He came into the studio with me pretty late on when we had. had a pretty good rough cut of that section. And it took like myself and three other editors

take after take after take. I mean, it was, it was a monster to get a handle on. And Mark came in. He goes, well, let me have a look. And I said, Mark, I think we've got a pretty good cut. He goes, well, let me come in and have a look. So he came in and had a look. And he was one of those guys that was so fastidious about everything that it was like annoying. Because I'd sit in the editor I'm just going, you know, look over and I'm like, Mark, he goes, oh, no, there's a statement here with one of these kids, and we're looking through like 15 hours of material. It's here, you know, no, this is important, James, and I'm just totally annoyed, just going, oh, come on, like I've been working on this for years.

And he was right. Mark was right, because Mark made his little changes, these little bits of testimonials that may seem insignificant at the time, but that just had to be. that next layer of not only credibility but storytelling that it really got that section to really pop. And, you know, the ending was kind of an accident. I think I've talked about this before, but I was amazed at hearing the accounts of the children now as adults, hearing them after having 20 years to think about and process, you know, this whole event. A lot of them never even spoke to their partners about it after all 20 years

because they're tired of defending it. But listening to the adults, you know, talking about an event that occurred 20 years ago as if it happened yesterday. You know, a level of description of the encounter and watching them draw what they saw. And I created this whole montage

of the adult's voices, but them as children. And I worked really hard on it. I spent weeks and weeks on it. And I didn't know where to put it. And so I sort of bumped it to the end of the timeline. And I don't know if you've heard this or not. But I was like, oh, I like where this is going.

Because sometimes in you're in an edit studio, you just try things out. Like, do I like this? Does this work? This might work. And like, a lot of times you scrap something, but you don't know. You have to explore and go down that rabbit hole. And I did. And I was liking the direction it was going.

You look at the children's faces, but you're hanging there as adults, talking about the impact and the effect it was happening on their emotions and all this stuff. and the adults not believing them and not offer them support and extracting all this information out of them without actually giving them therapy and helping them understand what had just happened.

And it was really a great, great little moment. I took that chunk and I put it at the end of the timeline and I said, I'll revisit that in a few months. Well, during that period, I inadvertently,

totally accidentally deleted the audio of all that hard work I'd done. I mean, we're talking like weeks, gone and and I was like oh my god I can't believe I did that I was like I don't know if I have the courage to try to do that again and the player head one day just kept going because I forgot to hit the space bar which stops the player head in the timeline and it plays over the children's faces that I'd edited with no sound and there was like some soundtrack there was music playing but no no interviews no

them talking, just the faces, music. And I went, oh my gosh, wow, that's powerful. Just, you know, they say an expression is worth a thousand words. Boy, all the expressions of those children's faces right after the incident was the most powerful thing I'd ever seen. Yeah. I knew right then and there, I was like, this film's ending with the children. That's it.

Exactly, man. Well, and I think that's what this film is about. I mean, it ends with the next generation, always. You know, this message of this is what happened then, this is what happens now. Whatever these intelligence are that presumably visited these children or what message they wanted to convey, they did it to the children for a reason. And I think that's really stressed in what the kids, now adults, have done with their lives. I mean, you showed what these people did with their lives after saying that this event affected them moving forward. Social workers, you know, environmentalists, civil rights lawyers.

It's incredible to see that these children went on to do amazing things and attribute it to this event. That's what really kind of tugged at my heartstrings because you know me, man. I'm all about the aftermath of an event and how it affects people. So I'm so happy you ended the film that way. Isn't it just like, I mean, it, you know, it's funny, I have not watched the film since I completed it. I have not watched it. I needed to step away from it, but, but I say this to your audience. Like when you eventually, if you read the film or if you buy it, if you do decide to purchase it, you got to get it on iTunes or Vimeo because you get three hours of bonus material for the same price.

other platforms unfortunately just didn't offer that um when you watch it do yourselves a favor and watch it with good speakers because we were going to be in movie theaters and movie theaters recommended that i did a 5.1 Dolby surround mix well that requires a sound engineer sorry i got something to my eye that requires a sound engineer in weeks and weeks of really hard and expensive work like geez you know but i tell you people told me james you don't understand how important this is You really need to go the extra mile. And I literally went to the bank. I took out a loan to do this last bit.

And I think it took the guy the better part of six weeks, maybe eight weeks, something like that. And he's like, okay, we're ready for you. And we'd send him the files for all the Peter Coyote interview and all that stuff. And I went down into this beautiful theater, like big screens, surround Dolby speakers. I mean, it was really an impressive, like, setup. and we watched the damn movie and I felt like I was watching my movie for the first time all by myself and I haven't seen it since

we put some credits and things of that nature but basically the whole film start to finish color correction audio sweetening surround mix and if you have a Dolby 5.1 that section of the film in Secorra, New Mexico the voices from the letters they bounce around the room like the sounds oh my gosh

Jesus please watch this movie with good speakers because my lord I could not believe the difference it made watching it with the way it was designed to be heard because like I said this was going to be in movie theaters we got robbed unfortunately for now and so it's it's truly a spectacular experience in my humble opinion, when you see what this audio,

this like six-time Emmy Award-winning audio engineer did, because, wow, it was really impressive. Yeah, and I mean, kudos to everyone who worked on the film in terms of your, you know, who did the score and the cinematography and this and that, everyone involved. We won't name them, name by name. That's what credits are for. But just beautiful job by everyone, I have to say, James,

I've seen every horrible UFO documentary out there and every good one out there as well suffered through some bad ones. But dude, this just hit every mark that a UFO researcher could hope for in a UFO film. So I would love, if you're willing to stick around, I will fire through some listener questions here. Is that cool? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. I never have received this many listener questions for an episode. So this is fun for me. It really depends on how much you're willing to share. But let's just go through these, man.

Some of them you already answered. So apologies to those out there. If I didn't, don't get to your question. Let's see here. Rick on Facebook asks, Luis Alizondo endorsed the hell out of your film, saying it said things he could not and that it was entirely accurate.

That is a hell of an endorsement. coming from the former head of the secret Pentagon UFO program. So Rick wants to know, given that most of the film was about a non-human intelligence, James, what are your current thoughts about the alien theory? This guy, Rick, he buys into it. But what do you think? What was your intent with the film?

Was it to say some of this could be alien? Or was it to say we don't know? I have drawn the conclusion, and I've asked this question to the highest level of people I've ever been in the room with. I want to know what is going on. And I really want to know. Believe me, it's been a like, almost my entire adult life has been, I'm a tourist.

I get to the bottom of things. I don't know if we'll ever know in our lifetimes. I'd like us too. I don't know. But what I do feel comfortable saying, and this is speculation, but it's informed speculation, is that there is clearly an omnipresent intelligence that has the ability to manifest itself. It's nuts and bolts. It's also psychic in a multitude of ways around the globe. Okay. And it plays tricks on us sometimes. They have a sense of humor.

they also you know can read our thoughts which sounds a little crazy but I can't tell you how many times I've talked to witnesses about it I mean look I'll give you one example of that alone that's with Parvice Jafari

he was chasing a Jenover Tehran in 1976 and the Iranian general and he decided just thinking about trying to shoot this thing that he was chasing he literally went to do it and his whole control panel locked up it was like And he said, you know, well, maybe that wasn't such a good idea.

But I could go into detail after detail after detail about this, but they have the ability to read our minds. They're technological. Their technology is light years advanced from our own. You know, clearly, I'm of the camp. If they wanted to do us harm, we would have known it a long time ago. I don't believe that. One of the things I learned in the – sort of organically in the edit room,

I was working with this guy, Lance Mungia. He's a great guy. He was an editor. He came over some fresh ideas and thoughts and came up with some brilliant, brilliant strategies. But he goes, James, you know, we should really, and David Marler had all this wonderful archive audio and stuff. Newspaper clippings and everything. And he goes, we should take out a map and see where these sightings are all happening in the 40s and 50s. And, you know, so we did this map out, Texas and New Mexico.

We're going, oh, look at this. Proximity to Trinity site. That's right here. And these bunkers were right there. Roswell's over here. We're going, hmm, that's interesting. This level of activity all around, just, you know, within proximity to all this nuclear activity. Well, what does that say to me personally?

Then we looked at the UFOs and nukes aspect of it. They're clearly interested in our nuclear capabilities or the birth of the atomic age. All that stuff was happening right around that hot spot. And we made that correlation. Of course, we read about it. But to actually be in the interim going, look it on the map and putting pins in going, there's got to be a correlation here, you know. And so maybe it's a parallel, you know, a parallel universe.

Maybe it's, you know, another intelligence that's paralleling ours, you know. Yeah, possibilities are us from the future, you know. all the above, I don't know, but they definitely, I feel very comfortable to say they clearly have an interest in our atomic and nuclear capabilities. No question about it. Yeah, tell me about it. Yeah. Well, okay, so Craig on Twitter asks, James, have you gotten any feedback from those in government who've seen the film? And if so, is there anything you could share with us?

Anyone, you know, top brass or anything, reach out to you after the film came out. Yes. So I know my understanding is that, um, both Biden and the Trump campaign got either a briefing or a copy of the film. I know that it's been making the rounds at the Pentagon because we got a call from a former CIA guy who confirmed that was happening, some of which were happy about the fact that the film was coming out and some of them were not. Because obviously, you know, we deal with Roswell, the potential crash of an alien spaceship. And I think they'd rather that just like disappear and, you know, because it's like,

One thing to talk about unidentified flying objects around, you know, buzzing around the skies. There's another one to say we've actually recovered one of these things. So, yeah. So, yeah, pretty clear indication that there's been a level of interest in the White House and among different camps in Pentagon for sure. And look, this is, this is not a quick flash in the pan journey we're on here, getting the film out. This is going to be probably the better part of a year process with, you know, different screenings. We're in talks with, you know, different streamers for global platforms. You know, we're not in a hurry.

We're putting the film out and we're going to get it out to the whole world. And that process is going to take the better part of two years. I'm sorry, here. Excuse me. Hey, slow and steady race, man. Every time. Every time. All right.

Well, our resident quantum physicist deep, he asks, beyond isotopic ratios in relation to the samples that Gary Noon, in Jacques Valet were in possession of James and had tested. Was there anything else anomalous about the samples, to your knowledge, that Jacques Valet is in position of? So what ended up in the film is what got kind of got the teeth pulled out of it at the end because of a couple of things. One, Jacques is very cautious of not making any concrete assertions without peer review, as well as being published in a scientific journal. So I know that Jacques was very, very concerned about maintaining a fairly conservative position. I know that that that that Gary had his concerns with this association with

Stanford University and that aspect of it. So we kind of had to tone it down because when we got in the actual lab, they were revealing a lot more than which would unfortunately end. They needed to get approval. It had to kind of get signed off on. And so we kind of toned that level of it down. But I do know that and look, I'm not I'm no scientist. Okay. I'm not going to even pretend like I am. But I do know that the level of excitement was pretty high when they were looking at something that was manufactured that was engineered at an atomic level.

And they didn't know exactly why or how. But that was, Kerry felt quite confident that they will find out and that's going to potentially lead to other breakthrough technology and this sort of thing. So that's about as far as I can go on that. Yeah, yeah. I think that's about as far as a lot of us can go with that. in terms of our scientific knowledge of isotopic ratios.

Yeah, no. Look, even people like Tom DeLong and to the Stars Academy and whatnot, they've got same, you know, the same sort of, not the exact same, but materials they're in possession of that are manufactured at the atomic level as well. So there has to be something to it. Only time will tell. But Luis, Luis on Twitter asks James,

you dived into CE3 cases in the phenomenon film. And I was wondering if you will continue. continue reporting and investigating credible close encounter of the third kind or more cases in the future. And she also asks, and this is probably the most popular question, one of two most popular questions. Has Joe Rogan contacted you yet? Okay. So let's get the first part of it is the answer to that is yes. I will, I'm never going to do another history section. We've done it. Moving on. Okay. So now like for instance, the Barclay, case, I'm clearly going to do something with that.

We're in talks with major streamers about a miniseries. No question of that. In terms of people like Joe Rogan, sit tight. Yep. We'll leave it at that. Yeah, yeah. Always leaving us with something, James. I love it.

Tom on Twitter asks, you've talked in recent interviews about how you have consistently run into reports of UFO witnesses encountering men in black, something that we didn't really talk about in the film or in this discussion. So do you have any theories about the purpose or origin of the men in black? Yeah, what are your thoughts on the MIBs?

I didn't believe it. Well, I wouldn't say I didn't believe it because I talked to people dating back to the 90s that I've heard these reports and I was just like, I don't know, it's almost like they went over my head. I wouldn't hear them, and then I just wouldn't register

because I'm thinking to myself, come on really like these guys showed up in suits like really come on then i heard another one and another one and another one and five years later another one and another one and another one and another one and really credible reports of another ones and finally i was in south america meeting with the mother of two of the daughters that came face to face as one of these live fiends from that alleged crash in virginia in brazil in 1996 and then i'm talking to the mother in her home like i mean this woman is not trying to sell crazy. And she's just like, yeah. And then these guys and suits came over. And I went, okay, I've heard enough. These guys exist. And sometimes they're menacing, sometimes less so.

Sometimes they're there to take whatever evidence. They're from an unknown government agency. I know that I talked about this a little bit with Christopher Mellon because we've been doing a lot of interviews together. And I'm not sure if I went beyond his comfort zone. I started talking about it. It's from my personal experience from people that I've talked to, witnesses, and I can give accounts until I'm in the face. I checked in with Christopher Mellon after that. The last interview that we did together, I was like, I hope it didn't go beyond your comfort level.

I don't want to associate you with me. He goes, no, no, you didn't say anything that I was uncomfortable with. And I was like, okay, I just talked about men in black. You seem to be okay with that. But look, I didn't believe it. And I don't know what agency they're from, but they're very interested in. Look, the better the case and the likelihood of any decent evidence,

they're damn straight they're going to show up. Yeah, yeah, in some form or fashion. Yep, I agree with you. All right, Nick on Twitter asks, you brought up the most pristine UAP video that you'd personally ever seen in an interview with Rich Dolan recently. And Nick wants to know, have you had any further contact with the guy who was in possession of this video and will we ever see it? Great question. I got messaged by two people. After that, Richard, Richard, Dole an interview. I was like, wow, I should have brought up a few other things as well because he's got quite an audience and an audience that's pretty, you know, plugged in. And one of the people confirmed, he goes, I saw that video too in 2001. I was like, oh my God, you signed.

He goes, I said, how do you remember it? He goes exactly like you remember it. I said, great. I can't believe the first person I've heard in 25 years that said that. Then I got contacted by another person and that other person is a private investigator homicide cases and he is looking into it. That's fair. That's all we can ask for. All right. Well, here we go. One of your editors actually chimed in is well here, James, and that's Lance, you mentioned earlier. He wants to know what through lines of a cover up that you found via investigative journalism, stories about people, you know, being forced to shut up or about what they saw being paid off, threatened, humiliated, physical evidence that was disappearing.

He put it, yeah, what do you think? Is there a clear cover-up in all of the research that you've done? Hi, Lance, by the way. I think that Lance knows where the bodies are. I really do. I'm kidding. You're kidding. We put it fast in.

Yeah, no, it was interesting having, I think one of the most telling moments for me was when I was in Australia and I met with a couple of witnesses that had been silent for 50 years. One of them was a school teacher, it was a science teacher. And I know that he was a witness because I talked to all, A, the papers, but I also talked to the then children, now adults that were standing next to them. and again, I won't bore your audience with details on how that interview came about, but it was one of the more difficult things I, you know, challenged to do to get him to come forward. But he said that he had visits from Guy. It was at least one man in a suit, another one in a military uniform, and they threatened him in no uncertain terms on multiple, multiple things,

reasons why he cannot talk about it. didn't talk about it for 50 years. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, look, I think that's changing now. I really do. I haven't, I mean, the last story I heard about these guys menacing witnesses was in the 90s. And I'm just, I'm sorry, I'm just trying to think if I've heard any more recent cases. Well, the 2006 O'Hare, but I think that was more of a question of the United Airlines not wanted to be associated with pilots who see UFOs or have that see UFOs.

I think that was less of a government shutdown or cover up less so. But I think things are changing. I mean, look, look at what's happening right now. Look at the fact that people like former Senate Majority Leader, Harry Reid, coming forward and publicly, you know, not only making those incredible statements, but endorsing a film that deals with, you know, closing encounters of third kind and all these other unambiguous UFO encounters. It's very encouraging sight.

Christopher Mellon, all the work he's doing, Lou Elizondon, like, you know, whether you like Two Stars Academy or not, it's quite an influential group of people getting together and making stuff happen. And so I think I'm incredibly excited for the future of this. I really think that we might just be reaching a tipping point. I honestly believe that. I do too. And we'll get to that in a minute what the government is currently doing in terms of the UFO issue.

But let's get to this one here. Derek on Twitter asks, do you believe that full disclosure would fundamentally change humankind, this big grand capital D disclosure. I mean, I know you're not a big fan of it. I'm not either of it ever happening. But yeah, if it did, James, what would change? Everything or nothing? I am firmly convinced that if the floodgates opened and it was revealed what is known,

I think two things. I think one, it's going to open up the floodgates of inquiries, of which a lot of things, they don't have the answers to. I really don't believe they know who they are, where they come from, what they want. I really believe in my heart of hearts. Yeah, of course they know they're real, and I'm sure they've recovered the stuff,

and I'm sure that Roswell happened the way they said it happened. But that doesn't change the fact that, you know, just because you have a piece of the debris, that you have the answers, you know, who they are, where they come from what they want, I think anybody who says they do is full of doggie-dudu. I really do, believe that. And look, my position can be challenged,

that's fine. I'm just speaking from my personal perspective and from people that I've talked to, and I've talked to pretty high-level people around the world. And I'd love to say that they do know what's going on. But the other prong to that whole potential revelation is, I think it could be just exactly what the world needs right now. I think that it would force us to see ourselves for who we really are. And that's one race and one planet. And I firmly believe that. It sounds like a kumbaya moment here,

but how could you not? How could it not have a unifying effect on all of humanity? So I'm very optimistic about it. And I think even if it's a little scary, we don't have a lot of all the answers. That's okay. Yeah. I don't think we're ever going to get those answers.

Honestly, that's my personal opinion. And I think you're right. I think the world is not doing too good right now. A lot going on. And I'm not just talking here in, you know, these very western eyes that us Americans usually look through. Yeah, we've got political turmoil. We've had it in the past.

We'll have it again. But a worldwide pandemic. I mean, this is killing the world. The world itself is dying every day from the things we've done to our own planet. So, hey, if there's going to be some sort of intervention from another intelligence, I think we're inching closer to them finally being like, let's cut the shit, let's help them out, and let's see what happens. You know, it's really funny.

I've thought about this in the past, and again, this is just total speculation. I need to emphasize that to the 10th degree. But I've had a thought for some time now that maybe, just maybe, the level of awareness reaches a certain point globally of their existence, their existence. their influence, that consciousness gets to a certain level, that might be a tipping point as well for them revealing themselves more openly.

Again, total speculation. But I've had that thought on a number of occasions that maybe they felt we weren't ready. I don't know. That's a good point. I truly think we are on the phenomenon's timetable. I really do. I think whatever it is, whatever variables are involved with it, that disclosure is not going to come from the government.

It's going to come from each individual seeing a UFO, having a close encounter, having a brush with a paranormal, whatever, whatever it is. We're on their timetable. And I think you're right. Once enough people finally acknowledge this, and I think we're getting closer to the work you're doing, the work Tom DeLong is doing, and all these other people getting involved with this topic, hopefully we'll get to that point where they'll finally make. make themselves known. But kind of wrapping up the listener questions here, James. This is probably the most important listener question we have. And I don't know if you're going to be willing to answer it, but I'm going to try. Dean Eliodo asks, what was your craft service budget for the film? Hey, I like your new rap for. Thanks. Yours too. What does rap stand for anyway? To me,

it's the remarkably advanced vehicle. Really? To me, it's the runway approved vehicle for its amazing style. What about remarkably adaptable vehicle because of its versatile cargo space? Or really admired vehicle? Oh, or really awesome vehicle. It really is the recreational activity vehicle. The stylish 2026 Toyota

RAP4 Limited. What's your Rav for? I had to, man. I had to. Oh my God. I think it was like a buck 50 or something. Some McDonald's, right? Yeah, value menu. Well, you know what's really funny is, I've said this before,

but we literally edited this movie at the end of a dirt road in a little shack that had an extension cord running from the main house a couple hundred yards away or a couple hundred feet away. You know, no internet, no very little cell phone reception because Jacques used to come out for these marathon edit sessions. And he completely cut off from the world. And in this little shack with no running water, no toilet. And it was, you know, kind of a little rough.

And I would tell people like, hey, but it was supposed to be a temporary situation until I could find something else. I mean, I live in a small community. I know everybody. I was thinking I could find an affordable place to edit my movie. And I couldn't. And I have a room in my house to do it, the very room I'm sitting in now. But I have a son that we come in.

I got people coming in there all hours and, you know, really disturbing. And we got so much work done in this beautiful little. little space in this garden, in this little cabin that we just made allowances for, you know, the fact that, you know, we didn't have a bathroom. We didn't have running water. We didn't have, but magic happened in that isolated spot. And I sound like broken record here, but shock, joke around. He goes, okay, I'm, I'm coming out from San Francisco. I got my compass. I got my face paint. I got my, I got my, I got my knife, you know. I was like, I got my bear spray.

He's got down this like... He's got a sense of humor. Everyone sees this guy is so serious all the time. He's got the best sense of humor. I'm so intimidated by just being in his presence. I have to be honest with you. I really feel like, you know, an idiot. I hate to say it, but I just feel so inadequate

next to this guy Jacques. It's just like, oh, my gosh, I'm not worthy. I'm not worthy. I'm not. You know? And yet, you know, He didn't make me feel stupid. He didn't make me feel, he made me feel like an equal, which I'm not.

But he made me feel that way, you know? And he was really humble and such an amazing man. I just, I have so much admiration for him, so much respect for him. And I owe Lee Spiegel. That was Lee Spiegel. That was all Lee Spiegel that made that introduction. And I owe the film this wouldn't be what it is today without, without everybody involved, but without Lee Spiegel having brought Jacques to the table,

that was a game changer. That's awesome. Lee is a hell of a guy. He lives in New York here near me, and we've met up a few times, and him telling me everything that was going on with your film, and I remember you were sending me, like, little videos every now and again of you in, you know, the garden area,

and there's like Jacques in the background. I'm just like, holy shit, this must be, like, the most surreal thing ever. So I want to ask, you know, kind of closing things up, James, what was the most like memorable experience throughout this huge journey for this film? Was there one moment you can really pinpoint where you're like, oh my God, like I did it.

I knocked this out of the park or I'm going to make a difference in this entire discourse about UFOs? Anything you can sort of muster up there? Well, there were a couple of wow moments. and I've described this before because I was always had a loss of trying to convey what it was like the pressure of producing this film and the best way I find is that I felt like I was in the ring with a monster and that I was literally just trying to survive the next round

and that's the best way it's exhausting because you can't like like I think I honestly I look at myself in the mirror now and I just I look like a beat up wreck I mean I this film piece of me died making this movie and I'm not sounding to sound melodramatic but I really mean it um a couple of wow moments for me was when I was in the lab and stanford at Silicon Valley with jock and Gary Nolan I knew like holy shit this is big wow I can't believe this is happening the moment when I was in the room, thanks to George Knapp, with Senator Harry Reid. I mean, I've seen that guy in my living room for a long time for about Senator Reid. My God, I can't believe I'm sitting down with this guy. You know, there's a couple of those moments where, and then that increases the pressure because you know you've got more eyeballs watching, more expectations to deliver a good product. And I'd say it was the final year push where you can't just settle for. oh, this is pretty good.

No, you take a section of the movie and if it doesn't move you profoundly, you rip it all apart and put it back together again. And I can't tell you, we did that with every scene. And then on top of that, when we were really happy, and I remember some people at 1091, we're like, oh, my God, this film's amazing.

And we're like, no, it's not. No, it's not. This film needs another six months. And we'd rip it all six at the park, cut 30 minutes out, you know, restructuring thing up to the last minute. Look, we were editing just a couple months ago. We were putting in new changes, you know?

Yeah, yeah. I remember watching a screener like six months ago and then watching it again a couple days ago. And I'm like, oh, there were some significant changes. Yeah, I know. You really went to that last moment before distribution to making everything. We really did. We really did.

And honestly, it's the first, is it perfect? No, it's not perfect. Am I satisfied? Very. I, you know, I always have a quiet moment with myself. Usually at some point when I'm ready, and I'm not ready yet, but I will. And that is I will take out some wine or a whiskey by myself and put the headphones on or whatever, crank up the speakers and the stereo. And I'll watch it all by myself.

I did it with out of the blue. I did it with I know what I saw. I did it with 50 years of denial. I always do it. When the time is right, I'll do it. And I sit down by myself, and usually a little tear will come down my cheek really. like, okay, buddy, I can pat myself in the back, you know, did it. Yeah.

Yeah, and I got to say that, and this is really important that I get this across, is that this is honestly the result of so many dedicated people in the field. Well, we dedicated the film to Stanton Friedman, but like the work of Jacques Phile and Don Schmidt and Kevin Randall and, Like, I could just go on, David Marler. I mean, it just does, the list doesn't end. And the researchers in Australia and, you know, Randall Nickerson, the case in Africa, people, Marco Real in South America.

I mean, it just goes on and on. People in China. People in Russia that I met with. I mean, it just, this is the culmination of all of these, the work and dedication of so many researchers in this field. And I would like to tip my hat to each and every one of them. People like yourself, you know, open

minds. I mean, it just goes on and on and on. And this is the culmination of a lot of people's hard work and dedication. And I the success of this film is really the success for all of us. I couldn't put it better myself. We all win

when it comes to this film being out. We really do. And I mean, besides being a founder of your work, James, in general, I have to say, like, so many eyes are now on this film and so many people within the government are watching this film. And it gives us hope. It gives us hope that we have the Senate Intelligence Committee drafting bills about UFOs.

We have a UFO task force being created in the Pentagon, all because of the diligent work being done by independent UFO researchers and organizations. And you're a big part of that. my last question for you, do you have any hope of the future of UFO studies? Maybe from a governmental angle, but if not, yeah, do you think we're ever going to find out what's going on? I know unequivocally that there's something very big that's imminent, and I know that for a fact. I think it's going to come to the form of either a statement or something of that nature and sit tight for that.

And I'm very confident that's about as all as I'm going to reveal. But that's, it's imminent. And I just, I can't say if it's one week, two, weeks, three weeks, but it is, I've been told it's imminent. We will leave it at that, man. I can't ask for a better way to wrap this up with hope, with hope that we're going to get something. So last question, of course, where can we find the phenomenon in everything you're up to, James? Oh, thank you. So you can go to the website, which is, oh, by the way, your audience, something is really, really,

really helpful. If you guys can rate us on Rotten Tomatoes and iTunes, it's incredibly helpful. It really does take that extra time and just give us a quick little rating, maybe a little blurb. You don't even have to do that. You can just do it, hit the stars, whatever you feel the film is worthy of. And that's incredibly helpful. And our website, which has all the links. And again, I'll remind the audience that if you want to buy the film, I think it's like $12.99 or something like that, get it from iTunes or Vimeo, because you can, you get it. get three hours, three hours of bonus material, which is really cool. Stuff that didn't make the movie, an interview with Story Musgrave, who piloted the space

shuttle, incredible epiphanies that he had, really, really cool stuff. And again, www. Thephenomenonfilm.com. www. the phenomenonfilm.com. And that has all different links where the film's available. Perfect. Oh, I know what I'm doing tonight. Three more hours of James Fox coming my way with some bourbon for sure. And like you said, Edgar Mitchell and Story Musgrave, but we didn't even touch on the astronaut aspect. So go get that on Vimeo, watch the extra footage. And all I could say, man, is while the world seems like it might be kind of falling apart, it's stuff like this. We're living in the most exciting year of UFOs we've ever had. So if there's any light at the end of the tunnel, I think it's the lights coming from those things above. And I can't wait to see what you do next, what happens

with this topic. And I have to thank you for coming on Somewhere in the Skies. Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate all that you do as well. So thank you. And thank to your audience for listening to me, Jabberon, for like two hours. Somewhere in the Skies is produced by Third Kind Productions in association with the Entertainment One podcast network.