Somewhere in the Skies - The Rendlesham Forest UFO Conspiracy

Episode Date: June 1, 2020

On episode 163 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, Nick Redfern returns to discuss his latest book, The Rendlesham Forest UFO Conspiracy: A Close Encounter Exposed as a Top Secret Government Experiment. In the final days of December 1980, strange encounters and bizarre incidents occurred in the heart of Rendlesham Forest, Suffolk, England. Based upon their personal encounters, many of the military personnel who were present at the time believed that something extraterrestrial came down in those dark woods. What if, however, there was another explanation for what happened four decades ago? What if that explanation, if revealed, proved to be even more controversial than the theory that aliens arrived from a faraway world? The ramifications for the field of Ufology would be immense. In his new, sensational book, Nick Redfern reveals that one of the most famous UFO cases of all time was really a series of top secret experiments using holograms, mind-control programs, deception, disinformation, conspiracies and cover-ups. The shocking truth of a forty-year-old mystery is now revealed. Guest Bio: Nick Redfern is the author of more than 60 books. They include Flying Saucers from the Kremlin; The Roswell UFO Conspiracy; Women in Black; Men in Black; Nessie; Chupacabra Road Trip; The Black Diary; and 365 Days of UFOs. Nick has appeared on many TV shows, including the National Geographic Channel’s Paranatural; the SyFy Channel’s Proof Positive; and the Travel Channel’s In Search of Monsters. Order Nick's Book by CLICKING HERE Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com Patreon: www.patreon.com/somewhereskies YouTube Channel: CLICK HERE Official Store: CLICK HERE Order Ryan's Book by CLICKING HERE Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Watch Mysteries Decoded for free at www.CWseed.com Episode edited by Jane Palomera Moore Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES is part of the eOne podcast network. To learn more, CLICK HERE Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today on the show, prolific author Nick Redfern returns to talk all about his latest book, The Rendlesham Forest UFO conspiracy, a close encounter exposed as a top secret government experiment. We don't want to hear about this is why these programs don't want to know that's... This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan's bread. Nick, thanks for joining me once again on Somewhere in the Skies. Absolutely. I think the last time we spoke was face-to-face actually in Michigan. for the UFO con. So I'm excited to catch up, man.

Yep. Yep, yep. And you had a controversial book come out around that time, as you do today. So we're going to be talking today about the Rendell Schemphorrest UFO conspiracy, a close encounter exposed as a top secret government experiment. That subtitle, I think, is going to be the contention today with many people in the UFO field. But I'm really excited to talk to you about this one, man. Oh, you may not know today.

Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's what you seem to be good at. So, yeah, absolutely. And this is definitely one of those cases where I think there is a wide open field of alternative theories, because just like most UFO cases, we don't have a solid definitive answer on what happened. And we are kind of left with, you know, what the majority think, Roswell was aliens, Randall Shum was aliens. But when you start to really look at these things and look at it with a fresh perspective, I think these theories you're bringing forward. have a lot more truth to them than I think a lot of people are willing to accept as true believers of a E.T. kind, I would say. But before we even get to that, Nick, you're probably sick of answer in this question. But for some of my listeners who may not be too familiar with the Rendlesham case, could you maybe give us kind of the 101 rundown of what Rendlesham is and what the original event was all about?

Well, the events occurred on UK soil. Over the years, people have come forward to say, well, you know, something else happened on the third night and on a fourth night and there are a story. And there were rumors of another experiment on one of the same nights. So, admittedly, after 40 years, you know, there are some things we don't know about it. Apart from this is almost unique because, you know, somebody sees something and they take a picture or they just see it and, you know, tell somebody. This can have gone one of the reasons.

why it's really stuck in people's minds and the fact on the various nights. known as like the British Roswell, not because anything crashed in the case, in what this sort of strange missed as well in the woods. So everything about it was sort of... Right,

super trippy almost, and I mean that kind of comes with the territory of Rendell Shum Forrest. So before we even dive into some of these theories on what could have landed there, if anything landed there, I know you've done a lot of research into Rendo forest itself with a lot of the folklore and history to this place.

And I was wondering, would you mind touching on kind of the stranger aspects of this forest before even dive into the event? This one of them is committee, World War, set them all on fire. In the 1960s, there was a top sated out of there as well. And also, Mark Hone had a present into sort of the stark reality of it all. Cobra mist, shingle streets with the strange deaths. and all the various other radar programs and so on. All of, and the Marconi company as well.

And all of these facilities, all of these classified programs, all took place less than 11 miles. So in other words, regular forest and something once happened there, this sort of Rendlesham Forest's middle name, you know, going right back to the 30s. Now, there's the other side of it, which is more of a supernatural side, I guess. there are legends of sort of like phantom black dogs, as they're known in the UK,

sort of ghostly phantom black dogs roaming around the woods and large black panther-type cats and ghostly figures. So everything about Rendlesham Forest is kind of weird. But for me, you know, the most important thing, I guess, in terms of the historical aspect of it all, is the fact that that that entire area has been subjected to, top secret, not just for years, but for decades. And I think that's an important thing when you look at the location and you look at the history, you know, it does become a stretch to say, well,

you know, if they're four or five top to the 80s, then why not run a similar program in the same area again in relation to like a UFO theme experiments as well. Right, right. And, you know, this idea that, you know, when you think of 11 miles here at America, that's not that far. So, I mean, there's so much evidence that this is an area where you would do these types of experiments. And one of the earlier ones you cover in the book is Edgewood Arsenal. This was really interesting. It's significance with Rendell Sheld Forest and this idea of ball lightning.

You know, one of these excuses we heard later on during Project Blue Book for many UFO sightings as well. So, yeah, would you mind kind of running us through? this theory, Nick, of what ball lightning is, first of all, because I still can't really wrap my head around it. And this idea of Edgewood Arsenal, yeah. Lots of places can expose you to identity theft. Oh, no. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second

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Save up to 40% your first year at lifelop.com slash special offer. Terms apply. Everybody's seen that. It's kind of just, imagine like a globe dies and giving off these sparks of light. Now, in the 1950s, but particularly so more in the 1960s, terming, if this all went to, and that's where the name came from, and possibly one of the reasons why it was called that was because some of the science who worked on it 20 years earlier, they'd worked on some of the so-called paperclip

scientist silver at the end of the Second World War. So a lot of controversial and top-secret recent Arsenal, and as I said, the plan was to try and see if ball lightning could be weaponized, that's to say, could it be directed using technology, including laser beams, to direct ball lightning at the enemy? In other words, you know, you could do away with tanks and missiles, you could literally use ball lightning and, you know, arguably create even more damage to the enemy. And this particular program went on for years. The Kugel Blitz one, by that name, began in 1965. And I've now got some files which show it was going through to the 1970s. Now, the reason why I mentioned this in the book is because what the guys out in

Rendlesham Forest saw in Reddleston Forest that night on the first night, some of the material that was described in the skies by the guys in the woods parallels what ball lightning is when you see it moving along. As I said, it's like a spherical ball

anywhere from the size of like a soccer ball up to like a beach ball, maybe sometimes a little bit larger, and it gives off these weird sparks and glowing particles. Now, what's intriguing is that that is exactly what Kurtz's memo about what happened on that. And the work being done at the Edgewood Arsenal, it sounds very much like that in December 1980,

somebody had preferable of replicating or controlling and weaponizing ball lightning, and they were testing it out over Randallsham Forest. Now, it gets more intriguing because the Edgewood Arsenal was also where a lot of early mind control, similar to the CIA's M-K-U-R-R-R-R-Russia program of the 1950s onward. So when you've got a facility that is working to create ball lightning, which in the sky kind of looks just like a UFO, and at the same place, they're also doing top secret research into MK Ultra-type investigations and experiments to manipulate the human mind, etc., etc. And the 1980, when it sounds very much like what the guy's responses were, you know, to see how they reacted to the idea, could these be UFOs, when actually it was a cold and weaponized ball lightning, mind alteration, and also with a third category, that of the use of sophisticated polygrams.

Right, yeah, and we'll definitely get to that. I do want to move back to the idea of using the mind with this, Nick. Now, we go from, okay, fine, ball lightning in the sky. This could be what Halt and the other officers witnessed. We've heard the audio tapes of them describing this, and you're right. It sounds, no pun intended, strikingly similar to this ball lightning. But then you get to this next level of mind alteration. We do know a lot of the officers said they felt like they were either, you know, going in slow motion,

or they felt like they were almost in this, like, weird altered state. And some of the officers even said they felt like they were drug. And we moved to a different place that I know you've done a lot of research into, and that's port and down. So, yeah, I was wondering, could you, maybe we go from ball lightning to this next idea of now on the ground, where officers said this thing possibly landed and other things happened. So what does Port and Down have to do with all of this? Well, into MK. Ultra and mind manipulation, hallucinogenic, LSD, BZ, all these other mind-altering phenomena.

the UK, of course, has always had a good relationship with the US, and when Port and Down decided in the 50s to get more and more involved in the field of things like LSD and how it could be used on personnel to see how to alter the mindset. Well, one of the things that they decided to do with the personnel, what the response was. Now, you know, people have said to me, well, there's no way, you know, that the British government or British military would do that.

But they actually did, and the files, some of the files at least, have now been declassified. And film footage was taken, which you can now actually see online. And basically what it was, they ran this experiment, scientists from Port and Down, and took them to an area of forest, interestingly enough, you know, another forest, not too far from Port and Down. In this case, the guys were asked if they would be willing to go, along with an experiment, but they didn't tell them anything about the experiment. They just said, you know, we're going to give you something,

and we just want to see how you respond. Started to, some of them were climbing trees, and some of them were just laughing. One guy in the footage looks like he's about to have a severe panic attack, and there's a female nurse hanging on to his wrist and trying to reassure him. And this demonstrated, you know, that the British government was quite a billings. And some of the guys, you know, they were only sort of 20, 21, but for years later, it sort of stayed with them. Now, the reason why I keep this in mind and why I put it in the book between what went on in Mendelsham Forest, we have some of the guys, as you said, you know, they weren't able to walk around properly.

Some of them felt, you know, they were walking in like water, you know, it was just sort of hard for them. There was memory loss. there was sort of a lot of bright lights, you know, more visual than before, or they should be. And this was 1964. And if you Google British Army 1964, you'll find numerous websites about this, and one of them, it'll take you to YouTube where you can actually watch portions of this experiment. But the important thing for me, you know, this 1964, that was only sort of 16 years before Rendelsham, British soldiers, well, actually Marines, were mind-altering phenomena in a forest and the military, the superior, so to speak. And there are rumours that the guys in Randlesham Forest were also filmed by at least done one within 1919. 80 is so close that I had to put it in the book.

But I wasn't the only one to sort of look into the port and down angle. Another one of them, one of the most powerful and influential military in UFOs. But in mind, he was retired by then, so he was kind of out of the, oh, you know, back in the 70s he held this. But he heard rumors through his contacts in government that, yes, a team had been secretly brought in to Randleton Forrest. almost certainly the night before the first series of events so everything could be set up at night

nobody would be around he learned that as I said that in almost certainty that had got up into Rendlesham Forest the night before everything was prepared along with the technology that was needed for the holograms and that might sound like a lot of things going on the guys or at least some of them

wouldn't have been that difficult you know holograms can be projected quite easily and you know and if your mind is already warped that's going to make it even easier and with the um the ball lightning as well if you had that to it you know we know for sure that that program had been going on from 1965 and certainly through the 1970s so in other words the guys who are running this program were already primed you know to know what to do right yeah and you know the the word staged comes to mind a lot when it comes to this. A lot of the people felt like this was some sort of performance happening. Moving to the hologram thing, Nick, this, I don't know if this is just really good timing on your part, but within the last few weeks, I think it was, the Department of Defense and the Navy came forward and said they were looking into patents for plasma lasers to sort of, you know, for air defense purposes, shoot a hologram. out there, the enemy will fire at that, and meanwhile, our plane will go away. And we know that in the past

these things have been rumored as well, you know, shining holograms of God in the sky and whatnot. So, yeah, what, was this really good timing on your part that your theory came forward the same time these articles started to come out, or what are we dealing with here? This is insane. You know, all the old. But, you know, and I'm just, you know, but, you know, so, you know, so, you him, you know, they're filled with weird. Prize me if somewhere there's a connection, you know, between coming out at broadly the same time. Yeah, and I mean, like you mentioned, too, we've attempted these things in the past, right? I mean, you came across some files and whatnot that stated, you know, we have tried to use this as a psychological warfare thing in the past, right?

...of the mind and staged events, and absolutely believe that. Now, whether it is extraterrestrial or multidimensional or extra-dimensional or just something we cannot fathom what they are. You know, I do believe there is a real UFO phenomenon. But what I think has happened is scientific agencies, military agencies, intelligence agencies have realized that, yes, there is this weird phenomenon that we don't understand. But they can essentially, or they decided at some point, probably in the 50s, 40s, they're, decided to sort of hijack the real phenomenon so they could use it as a means to their week. So we'll be talking about creating UFO events to test mind-altering technology, see how the human mind response to this or to that, and then, you know, say, then the military

can have a sort of a way out by saying, oh, well, it was just UFOs. It was nothing to do with us. So I think, you know, there has been this intriguing angle of government agencies knowing there's a real phenomenon, but also experimentation on people as well. Yeah, I think the government is very good at being opportunistic when it fits their, you know, their motives. And yeah, like you said, pushing that alien narrative, even if that's not the source of what's going on, has probably been used a lot in the past. and the whole hologram thing, it's very fascinating to me, Nick, but I'm going to play devil's advocate here. I know some of my listeners have wondered as well. Holograms of the officers being possibly drugged and looking at these things in the forest is one thing. But what about catching these things on radar?

We know the radar operators were tracking these objects into Rendell Shum Forest long before it even arrived there. So, I mean, is this just another whole part of this staged performance? Or, yeah, what are we dealing with when it comes to these things actually being tracked on radar? You know, he did a lot of expertise, you know, very good expertise in the field of Randallsham very generously let me use in the book. It tells in the book. And it was after he and various other figures that in 1991, a movement of defense whistleblowers. and they said that they wanted to share with him the truth of what happened. I wanted to know that Ray wasn't the only one.

He was the first one to hear this story, but as I point out in the book, you know, various researchers have followed this particular. This is a quotation from Ray when I interviewed him about this angle that concerns the hologram. And he said, I found it interesting that they, that's the two whistleblowers,

would mention Rendlesham at our meeting they said there was a sense that this was maybe in some sense staged or that some of the senior people there were more concerned with the reaction of the men how they responded to the situation rather than what was actually going on. And he said basically he said that even if it was a type of hologram, they said it could interact with the environment. The tree marks at the landing site were indications of that. But how can you have a projected thing like a holography thing like a holograming.

hologram that also has material put into this as well was Jenny Randall's and I'll just give you Jenny's words as well she's a people who explained to her was this is a device this is her words now this is a device which manipulates

the subatomic basis of matter at a quantum level and builds a bridge between mind and physical substance if I understand it correctly she added this supposedly stimulated the mind into having vivid hallucinations, but at the same time, creating physical effects in the real world, which could take on a semblance of the appearance of the hallucinated images. So this sort of gets into, you know, sort of really, you know, scientific concepts, you know,

when you start talking about quantum levels and things like this. But basically the idea, the theory that was given to all of these various people approached by, so that, yes, it was holographic, but it had this sort of connection. with a physical reality. In other words, you could be sort of given an image and he would actually have some sense of physicality to it as well. It wouldn't just be an energy. It would almost feel something that you could feel.

Now, some people might say, well, that could be disinformation as a way to explain that, you know, to give an alternative theory and say, well, it really was aliens, you know. So you have to be very careful, and particularly you have to be very careful when you're dealing with whistleblowers because you don't know

what their agenda really is. But what I would say in cases, you know, the people that were told never went public and I left them out the gas me to. But there's no doubt. Aphology who were looking into Rendlesham dated to hide the fact that aliens really did land,

you know. And if it was just that, you know, I'd say, well, you know, it could be. But when you add the fact that we know there was an important component we know that sounds eerily like what was being tested at Edgewood. You know, you put all those different, and I think it still sort of pushes it down the secret experiment angle. Absolutely.

There's another aspect to this, and I was really interested to hear about this in the book. You bring up a guy named Ralph Noise. Now, I recently interviewed Kevin Day, the radar operator during the Tick-Tac UFO event. And back in, I think it was 2009, he wrote a fictional book about the Tick-Tac event just to get it out there. And this is what I experienced and make of it what you will, but in a fictional context. And now I see this almost play out identical to something you found with this guy, Ralph, in terms of something he wrote. Would you mind maybe running us through a little bit of this and what his book might represent? when it was became investigations in the 50s and 6es of UFOs.

But he's interestingly enough. He said he never saw anything. So in other words, you know, the story that's, you know, paralleling what happened at Reynoldsham, apart from one intriguing thing. And that is his novel, he's hallucinations. And again, it's being done to determine, you know, the effects on the military personnel. And when you put all of those pieces, those segments together, you know, you've got a guy who actually did work on a UFO program for the British Ministry Defence. Also, he wrote this novel, which almost identical to what happened in Rendlesham, apart from the fact the imagery, you know, the so-called craft by imagery and by like a superior technology, which the government is trying to get its grips around.

And I think, and a lot of researchers think, with hindsight, after they read the novel, is that Ralph Noyes knew exactly what happened at Randlesham Forest, but because, you know, he was an old man, he was on a military pension, he didn't want to go too far, you know, and come out in the world of fact as a whistleblower. So he chose to tell what he actually knew in the form of a novel. In my book, I think, you know, if we ever did, you know, if we ever do that, do get the false knowing what really happened. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, welcome to Uphology, right, Nick. I mean, it's always fiction

with a little truth somewhere in the middle. Well, in terms of, let's go back to the witnesses for a moment. Now, I know you've spoken personally to John Burroughs, who a lot of our listeners know received medical treatment from this event, from the VA recently. And then you have on the flip side, you have Jim Penniston, another person who claimed to have had a close encounter with the object itself and they're on very different paths when it comes to what happened out there. But have either of these guys reached out to you and given their opinions on what you've brought forward here? Or university.

Out of situation, credible technology, which luckily isn't such as, for example, weaponized and controllable lightning, you've got mind-altering technology, you've got sophisticated holograms. when you put all that together, what you remember and rely on your own imagery? Can you rely on your own memories when you were potentially messed around with? I mean, for example, by his own admission, you know, that the military used sodium pentatol on him, you know, the so-called truth drug. And, you know, this angle of drugs goes through the whole story, you know, whether it's like sodium pentothol, you know, to try and find out. for example, Penniston recalled in his mind. And then you've got the Port and Down connection.

You've got the fact that Porton has had a connection back in the Cold War with Porton Down. That's the way I look at it. I think all the guys are completely honest. They reported it as they saw it. But when you're dealing with all this mind-altering phenomena and, you know, highly advanced, as you know. Right, yeah. And, well, you mention the word honesty, Nick. And whether you like him or not, he's forever attached to this event, and that's Larry Warren.

Do you think any of your alternate theories make any of what he has said more reasonable or possible? Or do you dismiss this guy outright like a lot of people have? Yeah, where does he play into this entire alternate explanation thing? What's up, guys, Ryan here, and I'm just dropping in to tell you about a new podcast. I'm listening to. It's called Crashed in Roswell, Survivors in a misunderstood city. The podcast centers on Kyle Bullock, a lifelong local of the infamous Roswell, New Mexico. Kyle takes us on an investigative journalist's journey to uncover secrets from his family history and ties to the events of the Roswell UFO crash of 1947. What starts out is a show about

family, and small-town America, quickly turns into something much more mysterious and wild. When Kyle meets John, an old friend of his grandfathers, and a man with a secretive past, the show also explores the effects the UFO crashes had on the small community over the past 70-plus years and how it's changed the very culture of Roswell forever. If you're interested in UFOs, conspiracies, or want to know what Roswell is really about, you've got to listen to this show. The first season is currently underway, a new episodes release every Thursday. Crashed in Roswell is streaming now on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Overcast, or you can learn more and stream over at crashedinroswell.com. was when they're with, you know, because he didn't have any sense of, you know, you've got people.

And then there's this, I call it a grey area, because one of the interesting things is that Colonel Holtz, Charles Holtz, didn't really have, you know, too much time for Larry, you know, did say on a number of occasions that he felt that Larry, whatever the truth was, had been, he had his mind in some way meddled with. And that was almost sort of the, you know, the exact words. well. The reason why I mentioned this is because early last year I spoke at a conference down in Edinburgh, Texas. It's called the Out of the World Conference. It's on every year. And not only was I one of the speakers down there, but Charles Holt was as well. And we had a good time, you know, he's a nice guy laid back and, you know, chatty and funny. And we got talking about various aspects of Randleship because we were there from like the Friday or Thursday possibly right through to the Monday.

We're all there sort of hanging out together for about four days. And I asked him, you know, what he thought about the growing controversies surrounding things. He said that's universal, et cetera, et cetera. But he did say to me then, again, you know, that his views and what Larry had said, he still felt that Larry had his mind messed with. So I find that interesting that, you know, you've got a lot of people in euphology who don't like Larry. And yet, just a year ago, when I spoke to, or just a bit more than a year ago, when I met Holt for the first time down in Edinburgh, Texas, he was still saying that, well, you know, there is still something, I think, that was sort of where low, you know. Right. And, you know, a lot of the, I would say, discounting of Larry's story was always, he was the only one to say that he saw alien beings in the forest. And I mean, you look at the cover of your book and boom, there it is right.

there. And, you know, it is possible that either hallucinogens or, uh, holograms or something had to do with that. And, you know, Larry did see what he thinks he saw. So, I mean, yeah, he is a very contentious person when it comes to this. Yeah. It would make sense. Yeah. I think part of the by you follow, you know, this hazy, weird, you know, it's... Yeah, yeah, I would have to agree. It's always somewhere in between. And I mean, someone who really looked at that, Nick was, uh, Nick Pope, you know, former. UFO desk person for the MOD. He brought something interesting to the public not too long ago, and that was Project Condine, you know, basically the UK equivalent of, I guess, sort of like

atyip here in the United States where the British Defense Intelligence Agency, you know, for 97 to 2000, they looked into UFO reports. And if I'm not mistaken, I think they went back to Rendell Shum at one point in Project Condine. So what do you think this, this, your alternate theories, Does this play into anything that Nick Pope is brought forward about the case? Or have you spoken to him about what he feels after doing all this research into Rendlesham? Where does he lay when it comes to these theories he brought forward? Well, I mean, the whole Condyne thing, program title, you know, it keeps it away from the media and people like me and you.

By a guy, no, Air Force, he worked on radar. You know, he was somebody who was replaced to look into this. Now, one of the angles of these plasmas that Condine, the Condine project, looked into, was to see how, you know, it could actually be affected. You know, the human mind could be affected by some of these plasmas that the MOD was really interested in. Now, I'll just tell you, this is a quote from Nick Pope in relation to the Condine report. And Nick said, and I'm quoting him directly here, one of the areas that will be most contentious relates to what the report refers to as plasma-related fields. Electronically charge atmospheric plasmas accredited with having given rise to some of the reports

of Vash Triangular Shapecraft, while the interaction of such plasma fields with the temporal lobes in the brain is cited as another reason. Now, this is the way it gets important. Another reason why people might feel they were having a strange experience, strange experiences and plasmas when the condine report came out. Those were his exact word, like in 1980, that maybe the MOD, you know, didn't fully get a hold on it properly in the early 80s

and brought it back again in the 90s and looking at plasmas and like Nick Polk himself said, you know, as to, you know, but it may not have been a written. Right, right. And I think, you know, the important thing to remember, too, is, you know, while Condine might have looked back at Rendell Shum, all the files on this case were actually never found when people tried to get, you know, Freedom of Information Act requests filed on this case. They just mysteriously disappeared. So, I mean, you've got that whole

angle to it all as well. The government never actually said there was no confined the files. Doesn't mean they actually didn't exist. You know, that government is like that in case it comes back to hit them. And another egg five miles from Rendlesham Forest, there's a prison called Hollisley Bay, and it's for young offenders' car or something like that. And there were rumours that when they were releasing these hallucinogenics into the woods, there was some concern that if the weather changed, the wind changed, the aerosol-based hallucinogens could actually head towards through the forests

and head towards Hollisley Bay Prison. and there were rumours that the prison for all these young kids, if you like, and so there was this plan if it was needed to evacuate the prison. And Hill Norton actually heard through some of his sources about that story, this prison angle and the evacuations. And again, the government didn't deny this happened. What they said was they couldn't find the prison governor's journal from that particular angle of Rendlesham.

namely documentation Right, plausible deniability all the way. That's great, Nick. Well, I'm going to move to a few listener questions here with you. Michael on Facebook asks, given your research relating to the potential non-extrrestrial cause of Roswell and Rendlesham, two cases you've covered,

would you say that the government or military benefit from UFO mythology overall to keep secrets? And if so, in your opinion, can disclosure from the government? actually ever be trusted. Where we canons are the fabricated ones for things like intelligence and disinformation programs. You know, the more and more our technologies develop, the more and more difficult it becomes to differentiate between one that isn't real.

And I think, you know, that's a very good point. Most people think either disclosure's coming or it's not coming. I mean, you know, well, we've seen UFOs in the same. skies and we think they're dangerous, et cetera, et cetera, and could easily be sort of used as a means to take away, you know, more privacy and et cetera, et cetera. In other words, yes, UFOs are a threat. And so, you know, we need to do this and we need to do that to control you even more. You know, I think that that is one of the disturbing aspects is that the UFO subject could be used as a means to essentially be by bit, by Bitty, so to speak.

And we would not, I cannot say for sure, in some of these high-profile cases that we all know about, I cannot say for sure if they are real, well, they're really in one sense, regardless, but I mean, are they, the fabricate, kind of gets into a disturbing realm of manipulation and, you know, sort of having an effect on. Right. And then, I mean, you look at the overall picture. of if any of the explanations you brought forward are true, and this was some sort of top-secret experiment, to what ends, and who's at the top kind of pulling the strings downward and downward when it comes to this and why?

So I think you're right. I think it is dark and disturbing. I mean, you look at things like the Patriot Act here in America, or conspiracy theorists thinking that this global crisis we're dealing with is a way to finally microchip everybody. You know, you have these really far out there conspiracy theories about our government using crisis or events as an opportunity to get what they want out of it. So is this the same when it comes to certain UFO events? We'll probably never know. Well, we won't know unless, you know, somebody comes forward with hard evidence. And, I mean, it's a trip. It's called an iPhone.

Good point. You know, you don't, you know, for example, your medical information, you know, when you've got your whatever, it's got information on, for example, when you're going to go for, you know, you're changing the card or whatever, you know. The holiday, the vacation to the Bahamas that you've just arranged, you know, all that is on that phone.

Seeing the days when there could have been, somebody might have made an argument for, you know, for microchips. But as I said, we don't think about the fact that we actually do have the equivalent, you know, a microchip, but it's the equivalent of it. and we most people can't put the thing down. Yeah, and I think it's important, too. If we go back to something like A-TIP,

this aerial threat identification program with the Department of Defense, Luis Alizondo, the former head of the program, has even said, you know, we could care less if these UFOs were aliens. We were there to monitor if there was a potential threat to our skies and our national security.

So, I mean, right there, you've got a very clear stance that even the program investigating UFOs here in America, this secret program, didn't care where they came from. Was it a threat? And I think that's kind of the angle that this certain group is taking now in terms of looking at this phenomenon. You know, is this going to be a threat to us? How can we make our military stronger to fight back if we ever have to? So, yeah, you're right. there's so much politics and economics and beliefs that go into this quote-unquote UFO phenomenon. And it's hard to tell up from down, left, from right.

But, I mean, if we don't ask new questions like you have, we're just going to be stuck in the same rut like we have for 70-something years. But, I mean, there are too many people in euphology. Yeah, there is a huge difference between belief and proof for fact. And I think you're right. belief often blinds a lot of people when it comes to this stuff, especially when you bring something forward like you have here. Well, this one is not so much a question, but a fact, which you might find interesting.

The orphaness lighthouse that many said was the explanation for what Halt was seen is actually being scheduled for demolition after 220 years of functioning. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. But they tried to invade. Forest is not your average place. Concise terms, that's the best way I can describe it. Yeah, I would have to agree with you.

Well, in terms of Rendell-Shumnick and Roswell, two cases that you have clearly brought some controversial theories to, are there any other UFO cases that you'd like to really, you know, shake up and bring forth some new stuff, anything you're working on in terms of these alternate explanations? nations? Where would you like me to start? Oh no. That's the perfect answer. Another one, but again, it's just of the 1970s. The story is that the two men were on the edge of the Mississippi River fishing late at night, you know, on a Saturday night just hanging out,

having a good time, and they saw this strange light coming towards them to base after and questioned all sorts of questions, you know, what did you see, etc., etc. It was almost as if the primed and is that a lot of people got from was not too far from a place called Horn Island and Horn Island in the 1950s was a place where a lot of the early

hallucinogenic mind altering technology was on Horn Island not too far from where the two men were abducted now what's particularly intriguing island was cancelled for one particular reason And that was because some of the experiments involved aerosol-based hallucinogenics, and they couldn't guarantee that the winds wouldn't blow in the wrong direction

and head towards civilisation, so to speak, you know, populated areas. That sounds almost identical to what happened in Rendlesham Forest with the prison, the youngsters prison, Hollisley Bay. You know, with the idea of evacuating the place because of the... In other words, similar to certain portions of Rendlesham as well. Wow. I feel like only you would be able to make a connection between Pascagoula and the Rendleship Forest incident, Nick. That's amazing.

Wow. Well, actually, Jennings and Horn Island was a guy named, I should say he was, he still is, a guy named Hank Albrelli. And he wrote a book called A Terrible Mistake, and it's all about the death of a guy named Frank Olson, who was one of the early MK Ultra guys and he died of very controversial circumstances. He was either pushed, jumped out of a hotel window and there's still a lot of controversy about it now.

But Albrelli's book is a really good book, a terrible mistake. And it talks about the Hickson Parker case and, you know, and it's so close to Horn Island where all this sort of mind-altering technology was being used. And also, I mean, if we've got time, you know. and so many people in euphology have said. Now, one of the people who spoke about this was a guy named Ned, and he was someone who was connected to the US intelligence community. And before his death, Nedulcovic said that kind of like an MK Ultra program.

And he claimed that the UFO, mostly took Villasbois on board, was actually a helicopter. And some people might laugh at that, But, I mean, if you actually read, Willis Boas' very own words, in his own words when he was interviewed, he said that the craft that he was taken on board was kind of like an elongated type of craft,

and he said that on top of it was something spinning at high speed, and something was making like a whoop, whoop, whoop, kind of noise. Yeah. Which sounds to me just like a helicopter. Now, this is where it gets really interesting. is that a number of documents have now surfaced, and I mention one of those in the book, I think that in the mid-1950s that the CIA hired process,

you know, in like a hotel room, and it'd be like with, you know, a mirror where you could see both sides, and they would use, for example, LSD, who was taken on board a helicopter, fast-working hallucinogenics, and he may well have even had sex with the woman, you know, if she was a hooker.

Very much like alien abduction. you like. Wow, that is absolutely fascinating. You know, it just reminds me, I always go back to my theater roots and who said it better than Shakespeare? All the world is a stage. Yeah, who cares? He was just happy to have some fun, you know. That's so true. At that point, hey, who can argue? Yeah, let's be honest. But one other thing, I mean, one important thing, and I talk about this in the book as well, which is highly controversial, is that John Fuller program. He was friends with them and even had insiders who

him, you know, what was going on with MKL research into that field was and some people think that he may actually even have been brought into the program. Yeah, I mean you just keep tracing back further and further and connecting these dots and yeah, it makes perfect sense

you know, creating a mythology and using it to... People in euphology, but the fact they want to hear aliens. That's why this word so brilliant. I don't want to hear about, you know, it is in my book. They want it to be extraterrestrial, but I mean, I can only present it as it is, you know. It's, you know, one of the most famous, actually. That's euphology, and hey, man, it's not an easy road to take, so I respect

you for doing that. I think the field needs that desperately when it comes to this topic. The power of belief outweighs everything for some of these people, and I think without asking these questions, we're not going to get anywhere. And I know there's a lot of people who told me, like, you shouldn't be doing that interview. He's just spreading more disinformation. But I argue to those listening to this and who told me not to do this interview, I think the disinformation comes from blind faith and belief in something that we have absolutely no definitive proof of. So, yeah, for anyone who does go with the alien theory on Rendell Shum or any of these other things you've brought up. That's fine. That's perfectly fine. But then you got to think to yourself,

maybe that's what they want it all along. Well, you know, I mean, I would, I mean, it might sound ironic, but I mean, I don't care. And I mean, instead of having belief, you know, you know. Yeah, it's a really good point. Well, I mean, Nick, in terms of moving forward with all of this, you have a really good afterward in the book, which I don't want to give away here. I think people should read it about your continued efforts in work into looking at Rendlesham. But what comes next? I know you're always working on something. So is there anything you can share with us on what we can expect next from you?

Yeah. Cracken developed called the Martians on Mars, legends and stories and some of these strange photographs that, you know, what looked kind of like the remnants and the, you know, sort of the crumbling remnants of buildings on Mars. So it looks at thousands of years ago, maybe hundreds of thousand ancient race on Mars itself. So that one will be aster and then the Martians in October. Hey, I love it, man. There's two things we explore on this planet.

It's what's below us and what's above us, and you're covering both angles. So I absolutely love that. Before we go, Nick, where can we find the book and everything else you're up to? As soon, and you can get it in me at my blog, you know what I mean? All right. Awesome. Well, once again, the book is The Rendlesham Forest UFO conspiracy, and this has been Nick Redfern. Nick, thank you so much for joining me again on Somewhere in the Skies.

All right. Thanks a lot, mate. Somewhere in the Skies is produced by Third Kind Productions in association with the Entertainment One Podcast Network.