Somewhere in the Skies - The Roswell Conspiracy with Nick Redfern (SITS CLASSIC)

Episode Date: July 2, 2026

As we mark another July anniversary of the 1947 Roswell incident, we're revisiting one of our most controversial and fascinating conversations. While Roswell is often framed as a battle between extraterrestrial visitation and Project Mogul, author and researcher Nick Redfern presents a far darker possibility involving secret Cold War experiments, human test subjects, missing records, and a government cover-up that may have helped shape the modern UFO myth. In this classic interview, Redfern discusses the evidence, witnesses, and intelligence sources behind his books Body Snatchers in the Desert and The Roswell UFO Conspiracy. Whether you agree with his conclusions or not, this conversation challenges assumptions about the world's most famous UFO case and reminds us why Roswell remains at the center of the UFO mystery nearly eight decades later. As new UAP disclosures continue to emerge, it's the perfect time to revisit one of the most debated theories ever proposed. Join us at ANOMACON on September 12th: http://www.anomacon.com Send us a voicemail: https://www.speakpipe.com/SomewhereSkiesPod Patreon: http://www.patreon.com/somewhereskies ByMeACoffee: http://www.buymeacoffee.com/UFxzyzHOaQ Substack: https://ryansprague.substack.com/ All socials and books: https://linktr.ee/somewhereskiespod Email: [e-mail] Opening theme song by Septembryo Closing song by Per Kiilstofte Copyright © 2026 Ryan Sprague. All rights reserved. #Roswell #UFO #UAP #NickRedfern #RoswellCrash #AlienCrash #Disclosure #SomewhereInTheSkies #UFOHistory #UFOPodcast Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There's been a horrible accident, I said hastily. I don't know what happened. Corcoran's eyeless skull gawked. His lower jaw having sagged more since I first found him, making it look like his corpse was trying to scream. His body is just a casing to be discarded, the man said softly. What's important is that you will not deny him burial in the men. method we prepared for him.

We're his protectors. Stop us from doing his will and you'll be harmed. His transition has come and we are ready. Go back in the house. No one needs to know. Knife Point Horror. Tales of supernatural suspense written, produced and narrated by Soren Narnia.

Now transmitting from Specter Vision Radio, anywhere you hear podcasts. This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales, using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result?

Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture.com slash Spotify. While our government's official position is not to speculate on this subject, we can choose to let our minds explore other possibilities to use our imaginations. For if we consider that astro-scientists agree on one point that the possibility of life elsewhere is not only quite probable, some field is there without a doubt. Let us suppose them that these objects are real space vehicles, extraterrestrial origin, and not an illusion of the This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Hey guys, Ryan here and welcome to another episode of Somewhere in the Sky's classics.

Roswell is often traded as the starting point of the modern UFO mystery. It's the case that launched a thousand theories, inspired countless books, films, and became the benchmark against which every alleged crash retrieval story is measured. Yet nearly 80 years later, we still don't know exactly what happened in the New Mexico desert in July of 1947. As the conversations about UFO transparency, whistleblowers, hidden programs, and government secrecy continue to dominate headlines, I thought this would be another great opportunity to revisit a conversation

that challenged many of the assumptions surrounding the Roswell incident. In this classic interview, researcher and author, Nick Redfern, presents one of the most controversial alternative theories ever proposed about Roswell, whether you find it compelling, troubling, or completely off the mark. It forces us to ask an important question, what if the truth behind Roswell is neither as simple nor as extraordinary as we've been led to believe? That's what we'll be talking about in this interview. But before we do that, I just want to ask you guys to take a few moments to rate and rate. review somewhere in the skies on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Your ratings and reviews truly

make a difference and help us gain visibility, find new listeners, and possibly even get featured on Apple and Spotify on their front pages. As an independent podcast, this sort of stuff really means the world to us, so I thank you in advance for taking the time to do it. If you'd like to help support us further, we have our Patreon campaign, Apple Premium Subscriptions, and YouTube channel member subscriptions as well. There are so many unforeseen costs that go with producing a podcast and live stream almost every week. And your support truly makes a difference there as well. Links to all of our support systems are in the show notes.

There you can also find all of our socials to reach out to us. But for now, let's revisit this fascinating conversation and dig deep into the Roswell case with Nick Redfern. Headline edition, July 8, 1947. The Army Air Forces has announced that a flying disk has been found and is now in the possession of the Army. Army officers say the missile found sometime last week, has been inspected at Roswell, New Mexico, and sent to right field, Ohio for further inspection. Colonel William Blanchard of the Roswell Air Base refuses to give details of what the flying disc looks like. In Fort Worth, Texas, where the object was first stents, Brigadier General Rodger Ramey says that

is being shipped by air to the AAS Research Center at Wrightfield, Ohio. But this also appeared too flimsy to carry a man. I got a letter from 13-year-old Ryan from Belfast. Now, Ryan, if you're out in the crowd tonight, here's the answer to your questions. No. As far as I know, an alien spacecraft did not crash in Roswell, New Mexico, and 1947. and Ryan, if the United States Air Force did recover alien bodies, they didn't tell me about it either, and I want to know. We're confident once the report is out and digested by the public that this will be the final word on the Roswell incident. The conclusion of the first report left no doubt that what was recovered near Roswell, New Mexico in July, 1947, was debris from a formerly top secret Army Air Force's research project, code name Mogul.

was an attempt to acoustically detect Soviet nuclear blast and ballistic missile launches. In 1947, it was the misidentification of these radar reflectors that is most likely the famous flying disc. The final voice you heard was that of Colonel John Haynes of the U.S. Air Force in a press conference given at the Pentagon on June 24, 1997. In this briefing, Colonel Haynes gave what the Air Force considered the final determination on what crashed in the deserts of Roswell, New Mexico in 1947. After decades of firsthand witness testimony and endless theories on what happened that night, it became official that Project Mughal was to blame.

But the public was not convinced. Countless inaccuracies rose from the Air Force final report, and the UFO enthusiasts remained steadfast that what crashed was and remains in alien craft, with alien occupants aboard. But in 2005, a book was released that brought forth a new theory far more complex than crashed UFOs or weather balloons.

The book in question, Body Snatchers in the Desert, contemplated a highly confidential U.S. government-sanctioned program to conduct medical experiments on handicapped, disfigured, and diseased Japanese POWs, exploited as expendable victims by their captors

and flown at high altitudes in advanced balloons and possible aircraft. When one of these missions failed and crashed to the ground, the Roswell incident may have seemingly been born. Today, I speak with Nick Redfern, the author of over 40 books on a wide range of topics, both body snatchers in the desert and a new follow-up book, the Roswell UFO conspiracy. Expanding on his original theories in the Roswell UFO conspiracy,

Redfern brings forth more credible information and individuals to back up his ambitious claims and sheds a whole new light, though rather dark, on the entire Roswell controversy. Could the most famous UFO event in modern history have been a sinister, top-secret project, gone awry? And if so, does this shatter? the entire UFO mythos that has wrapped itself around this case for over seven decades. These questions, and many more, are laid out with today's guest. So, without further ado, let's get to our interview with Nick Redfern. All right, guys, today I am here with Nick Redfern.

I have been following this man's work for so long. Half of my library here at home consists of his name. He is one of the hardest working people I know out there in euphology and everything in between. So, Nick, thank you so much for joining me on Somewhere in the Skies today. Oh, thanks a lot, Ryan. Thanks having me on. Yeah, of course. The reason I'm having you on today is because we have the 70th anniversary of the Roswell incident coming up in July. And, you know, there have been so many explanations given as to what happened in Roswell in 19th.

But you truly took that ball and ran with it with your new book that we'll get to shortly. But I want to start with your first book on this topic, if that's okay with you. Yeah, we've heard many explanations about what crashed in 1947, but none is controversial, I would say, and is scrutinized by the UFO community is what you brought forward in 2005. So for those who may not be familiar with your first book on the Roswell case, can you tell us a little about body snatchers in the desert? Yeah, well, this was basically based around testimony that came from about six or seven elderly people. Two, three, excuse me, three of them were from the intelligence world. One was in the military and one was in the medical community. Those were the primary sources, but there were a few others as well.

And it was sort of like a convoluted way in which I got in touch with them, which I talk about in the new books. In the first book, the publisher Simon & Schuster just wanted the data. but I felt it was kind of good to present some information on how I got to know these people, but they didn't want to do that. So that's why in the new book I've sort of detailed how I came to know these so-called whistleblowers. And basically the story that they told was that, yes, there was a big cover up at Roswell, yes, that something came down and that, yes, there were bodies involved as well. And the story that they collectively told was sort of, to summarize it, was sort of like post-war

era, post-second World War era experiments using people in things like high-altitude exposure flights, like experiments, that kind of thing. Many of these incidents or flights, if you like, involved massive balloon arrays and in some cases where they would have these detachable lifting body type crafts attached to the balloon. So there's a lot of weird experimentation going on. And in the same way that at the end of the Second World War, a lot of the Nazi scientists who were experts in rocketry were secretly brought over from Germany to work in New Mexico

on the rocket programs at White Sands. In the same way that that happened, there was also like a clandestine Japanese program to bring Japanese scientists over because in the closing stages of the war, the Japanese were working on these gigantic, balloons that would come over to the United States with these detachable lifting body type of craft in sort of like a kamikaze type mode. So the technology for these sort of radically different

balloon devices were brought to New Mexico as well, where a lot of the studies were undertaken. And according to the story that was given to me, there were actually several fatal incidents with these flights in New Mexico, but one of them, most of them were hidden because the military got there first when these things came down. But with the Roswell case, as everybody knows, that the rancher, the Foster Ranch where the wreckage was found, Matt Brazel, the rancher got there before anybody else, and that included the military. So the cat was out of the bag, so to speak. And in this case, again, it was one of these massive balloon arrays, supposedly, with a detachable craft and people on board. And because, you know, you had these connections with the Nazis

and the Japanese and the human experimentation angle, it was all hidden under this sort of cover of weather balloons, flying discs, crash test dummies, mogul balloons, and who knows how many cover stories. Now, of course, the big question is, is that the real scenario? You know, as I point out in the new book, there are sort of 10 or 12 theories for what happened at Roswell.

So, you know, that's why the case is so controversial, because there are so many theories. but this is the one more than any other that I've sort of pursued over the course of two books. Right, right. And in the new book, The Roswell UFO conspiracy exposing a shocking and sinister secret. This is, like you mentioned, a follow-up where you get more in depth. You bring these people forward more than you did before. Could you give us sort of the impetus of why you wanted to do this follow-up book and what new information we can glean from these scenarios that you've brought forward? Yeah, there were a couple of reasons why I wanted to write the book. One was because, you know, the book came out, body snatchers came out in 2005.

So we're talking 12 years ago. And in that 12 year period, you know, I was able to get a lot more material and data that supported that particular theory. But the other reason was that, you know, back in 2005 when body snatches came out and I was sort of, you know, the worst thing in euphology possible to a lot of people, the people were saying well you know this is nick redfern's theory or nick redfern's story etc etc and i wanted to sort of put that to rest because a lot of people either didn't know or just flat out ignored the fact that numerous people were actually given this story long before me

of this sort of japanese components and the huge balloon angle and you know people used in like guinea pig flights that kind of thing for example Leonard Stringfield, who was a well-known researcher of crashed UFOs who died in 1994, he was given the story in 1990 and published it in 1991. In 1997, Popular Mechanics Magazine published, which is a well-respected magazine, published an article stating that they had been told of a forthcoming release of documents which would show evidence of a Japanese equivalent of paperclip. and that the wreckage at Roswell would be shown to be a Japanese balloon inspired

with, again, one of these lifting body type craft, and with the bodies being human bodies using these experiments. And there's several other, you know, I'll go through all on, but there are several other examples like that, which came way before my book, not only before my book was published, but even before I'd spoken to the people who I spoke to for the book. In other words, you know, it's a situation where, regardless of whether people accept that theory or not, it has been around a long time. I guess the main reason why people kind of tied it to me is because I wrote a book on it, you know, and a book's more visible than a small article.

So that was that those are the two main reasons were to sort of get the new information out there and to demonstrate, you know, that this was also a story that you can find multiple strands on if you're prepared to go and look. for it rather than just my books, you know. Right, well, let's break down that idea of bodies being found. This has always been one of the most controversial aspects of the case. Many first-hand, second-hand, third-hand witnesses have said they saw, you know, mangled bodies that looked like they'd been deformed or destroyed in this crash. So in terms of these high-altitude experiments that you said about Japanese people, where did this information actually come from, Nick?

Well, what happened was, and this is what I talk about in the new book, it's a little bit convoluted story, so I'll keep it kind of brief rather than sort of ramble on. But in 1998, I wrote a book called The FBI Files, and it was a study of all the UFO files that up until that point, the FBI had released through the Freedom Information Act. A lot of those files concerned UFO sightings at the Oak Ridge, Atomic Energy Establishments in Tennessee. Now, you know, whenever you write a book,

people tend to contact you about their experiences and I got a letter which came through Simon and Shuster who were the publisher of the FBI files and you know they typically most books you know they'll say inside if you want to contact the author right to the publisher of this address and you know I got quite a bit of feedback and one was a letter that came from the United States you know I was living in in the UK at the time and it came from an elderly woman who said she worked at Oak Ridge back in the 1940s through the early 50s and that she could share some information with me that I would find interesting. And I assumed because she'd read the book and she referenced

the chapter in the book, which was called, I think for the Oak Ridge Secret or something like that. And I assumed that's what she wanted to talk about, her knowledge of a UFO sightings in and around, you know, the Oak Ridge area. And she was very cagey. She wouldn't put the actual story she wanted to me into on paper she wouldn't let me speak to her on the phone about it she wouldn't let me to fax it that was you know we're talking that's how long ago it was you know back and and I said well you know I live in England so it's it's kind of tough if you're not willing to put it in paper not willing to talk on the phone you know it's early years of internet and she wasn't on the internet and

so it kind of stalled but then when I moved to the US in 2001 just purely coincidentally, she was actually by then living in California. And when I came over and people over here knew I was over here, I was asked to do like a series of lectures up the West Coast. And that made it sort of the perfect time to finally speak to her. And she was in her sort of late 70s then. But we sat down, she told me this story about how when she was at Oak Ridge, where a lot of research was done into, like for example, how radiation has an effect. on the human body and so on. Again, bearing the mind, you know,

the 40s was when a lot of this research was going on and certain answers hadn't been, you know, solved as far as, you know, things like high altitude, flight, radiation exposure, that kind of thing. And she told me that on several occasions, unusual bodies, unusual looking bodies, I should say, were brought in to the facility. This included people who looked like just regular normal people

who'd clearly been in some sort of, you know, pulverizing accidents of some sort. Others were Japanese people. And some of them were people who were clearly physically handicapped, you know, had genetic issues. And in some cases, there were some who had like extra fingers, some who had oversized heads, you know, which again is like an established medical condition in certain, you know, with certain syndromes. And the story that she got was that these people were. actually taken from like hospitals and asylums and things like this and used in some of these high altitude flights. And when I spoke to her, you know, she told the story, but I mean, I'm not

exaggerating when I say, you know, she was, she was terrified and very concerned as to not just, you know, what should she say, should she say anything? And she shared the story with me. And actually, I think it's her son-in-law brought her along to their meeting. And I said to her, so, well, you know, this is an interesting story. Is there anything else you can add to it? And she actually knew three other people who were willing to talk. Now, as I point out in the book, I never was able to fully confirm how these people all knew each other, but they were all elderly people who all claims have worked in this particular field and had knowledge of it.

So somehow, granted it's speculation, but somehow they clearly at some point in the past had been together, you know, and spent time working together. And so then it was a case she was able to put me in touch with those. They were able to put me in touch with a couple more people. So by around about, that was 2001. So around about late 2002, I'd got a huge amount of information and I'd interviewed all of these people. So then it was a case of putting it together and I spoke to Patrick Weege, who was Patrick at the time, who now runs the anomalous. But at the time, he was working on a new project of books for Simon and Schuster over here. And he pitched the idea to them and they liked it.

And so that's basically the original background from had I not written the book, the FBI files with the Oak Ridge chapter in there, the woman who worked at Oak Ridge probably wouldn't have contacted me, because she would have no reason to. And I wouldn't have got the story. So it was just purely down to those sort of random chance events more than anything else. Wow. Yeah. And we've heard that random chance aspect with this case more than any. I mean, most of us wouldn't even know about the case if, you know, Jesse Marcel Jr.

Didn't happen to run into Stent and Friedman. So, I mean, it's incredible how what has come forward about this case. And clearly having it have happened seven. years ago, we have very few individuals still alive to talk about it. Now, there are, there's files, Nick, that you brought forward in this new book that were revealed in the 90s. Could you tell us about these missing files that were, about the Roswell base and what these consisted of? Well, yeah, I mean, this goes back to really 1993. And what happened was that the then-congresman of New Mexico, Stephen Schiff, he heard about the Roswell case,

round about that time and he heard these stories about people being threatened, you know, lives being threatened. You won't talk about this. And he wasn't sort of like a full unbeliever in the UFO angle, but he was convinced by the sincere nature of these people and the obvious truthfulness, but he felt that at least something happened on the ranch back in 47 that wasn't a weather balloon or didn't involve a weather balloon. and so Schiff decided to look into this further

and what he did he contacted what back then was called the general accounting office today it's called the government's accountability off and they're basically the investigative of Congress you know if somebody wants something investigating within the government the GAO are the people who will sort of look into it and Schiff approached the GAO and asked them to look into Roswell

to see there are any files around and that's exactly what they did and the GAO is a very powerful organization and they pretty much ordered every government agency of relevance to hand over any files that they might have and that included the Air Force, the Navy, the Army, NSA, CIA, DIA, FBI,

everybody was ordered to basically search their files for anything pertaining to Roswell Now, nothing came up other than the one or two scraps of paper that have surfaced through the Freedom Information Act that really don't, you know, tell us anything. But during the course of the investigation, two interesting things happened. The Air Force, rather than just hand over any files that they might have, which turned out actually to be none, they initiated their own investigation and concluded that what came down was a Mughal balloon, which was one of these gigantic balloons for essentially monitoring for Soviet atomic bomb explosions. You know, they'd fly high and that they could detect, you know,

if the Soviets had actually successfully detonated an atomic bomb. So that was the Air Force's conclusion. But during the process of looking for files on Mughal, which they thought was the answer, they found that, oh, excuse me, I should say that the GAO found, but also then informed the air force. force that all of the outgoing messages from the Roswell base from 45 to 50 were gone. They were just literally vanished. Now, I mean, that's not, you know, rumor here, say, or conspiracy.

That's a historical fact. All of the outgoing messages from the base for that six-year period cannot be found anywhere. And even the Air Force and the GAO admitted that when they spoke to archivists and people, overseeing, you know, these historical files, no one could figure out when the files had gone missing. I mean, in theory, you know, these files, these massive amounts of files that are kept, you know, locked away, if they hadn't been studied for years, well, the files could have been pulled back in, you know, the early 50s and shredded or just removed to another secure location. It was only when the Air Force and the GAO went looking that there was a realization that the

files were gone. So, you know, I point out in the book, it could have been 50 years ago, it could have been 20 years ago, or it could have been, you know, the day before the Air Force and the GAO descended on the archives, you know, and somebody quickly grabbed them at the last minute. We just don't know. But for the, for the UFO angle, people who adhere to the idea that Roswell was a UFO crash, they have said, well, you know, that's evidence that a UFO came down because the files from 47 are gone. Well, yeah, the files from 47 are gone, but as I point out in the book,

also the files from 45, 46, right through to 50 are gone. Now, what's interesting is that people I interviewed back in 2001 actually said that the Roswell event was the only one that really became known in New Mexico because the rancher got there first and, you know, the cat was out of the bag. But they all said that there were a number of other events, these experiments that ended badly, but the military got there first and it was all covered up.

But they talked about these events going on from 45 to about 49. So, you know, as I point out, you could make a case that if this was just a UFO event out of the blue in 47, why pull the files from 45 and 46? But if, as the people I interviewed, said these experiments were going on from 45 till post Roswell, then that actually sort of strengthens the idea of a series of secret experiments if you're going to take files that cover six years

and which also cover two years before the crash itself. You know, it sounds very intriguing and eye-opening when people, when euphologists say, you know, the 47 files from Roswell are missing, which technically is true. But when you say, if it's

actually the files from 45 to 50, then it actually presents like a different picture or it can present a different picture. Exactly, yeah. And in terms of that, the secret experiments, could you tell us, Nick, these two individuals, Sheridan Cavett and Bill Rickett, how did they fit into this story of the secret experimentation aspect? Right, yeah.

I mean, they were two of the most intriguing characters in the Roswell story. They're both dead right now. But they have sort of the distinction of being the two guys along with Jesse Marcel. who were actually out at the ranch before, you know, the main military cleanup occurred. What happened was that the rancher Matt Brazel found this strange wreckage, went to the local police, and in no time, you know, it reached the eyes and ears of the staff at Roswell. So initially it was somebody just found something on this ranch. And obviously the people at Roswell, if it's, you know, if the experiment story is true,

then certainly the people who were ordered to go out, Marcel, Rickett, And Cavett, they weren't clear to know, you know, what was going on. They just went out there and found this strange wreckage. Now, there's good evidence that at one point, after Marcel had gone back, Cavett and Rickett went out together, just the two of them, and found not just the strange wreckage, but with Brazzell in Toe, who was showing them around the area where he found things that had come down, that they also found a solitary body.

and this was a couple of miles from the site where you have all this strange foil-like material on the ground. And then, reportedly, there was another site where there was the remains of some sort of vehicle that had come down. Now, over the years, Ricketts, Bill Rickett, did open up a little bit, and Stan Friedman spoke to him in the mid-80s, and he talked a bit about his knowledge of Roswell

and how he went out there, but he kind of totally clammed up. He was almost like a deer caught in headlights when Stan brought up the issue of bodies. And all he would say is, well, there are different aspects of security or different levels of security relative to Roswell. And there are certain levels that I can't talk about. So he was really concerned. And Cavett, who was actually, like in the, you know, one of the intelligence guys at the base,

he was someone who also was very, very careful not to bring up the issue of bodies. and when it was brought up with him, he reacted very sort of, you know, in a hostile fashion. Now, Rickett and Cavett, even more than Marcel, because he just, you know, all he saw was the initial field of wreckage

and then he drove back, and then it was after that that Cavett and Rickett went out. So in other words, those two guys, Cavett and Rickett and the Rancher Brazzell, really were the ones who were there first and knew what was going on. Now, Cavett, in, 1994 was actually interviewed by the Air Force as part of its investigation into the possibility

that it was a Mughal balloon that came down. And actually flew out and then drove to his address. And Colonel Weaver, who was responsible for the Mughal Report, interviewed Kavit in his home while Kavit's wife, Mary, was there as well. Now, the interview is actually contained in a huge Air Force report, which runs to about a thousand pages. I'm not kidding. And the interview is in there as one of the appendices.

And it talks about how Colonel Weber was asking, well, what did you see? And he said, a weather balloon. And weather balloons, they're tiny. You know, you could fit one in the trunk of your car. You know, you could probably put it on the front seat if you folded it up. You know, the weather balloons are very small. And the problem is that why the Air Force concluded that it was a mogul balloon that came down,

was because mulgal balloons were massive. They were like gigantic arrays, which were literally like 600 feet long. I'm not kidding. That's how big they were. So the Air Force's conclusion, which does make some sense, is that it would have to be a gigantic balloon

and not a weather balloon, you know, to explain this massive field of debris. But Cavitz would not have any of that. He said, nope. He said it was just an area of about 20 feet and it was a weather balloon. And even Marcel, you know, And even Rickett said, no, you know, it was a field just strewn with this stuff, you know, for literally like 600 feet.

But Cabot, even when he was speaking to the Air Force decades later for this report, he just would not say anything about, or he wouldn't endorse anything other than it being a weather balloon and that it was roughly about 20 feet of materials, foil, and that was it. And there was nothing else to it. Now, some people have painted the Air Force as the bad guys in all this, you know, they were lying and covering up the UFO crash or whatever. But I don't believe that's the case. What I think is that the Air Force legitimately went looking, couldn't find anything at all relative to Roswell, but came up with what they felt was the best answer, which was the Mughal Balloon.

They admitted, you know, they couldn't find any proof of that. So I think the Air Force legitimately and honestly did it. search that came up empty-handed, thought it was a, concluded it was a mogul balloon, that was their best estimate, and Cavitt would not even endorse that. He wouldn't even go as far as to say it was a mogul balloon. He just rigidly said, no, sorry, no, it was a weather balloon, which of course doesn't make any sense when everybody else talking about this huge field. But the, so the last most important thing about Cabot is that Tony Brugalia, a researcher who looked into this, spoke with Cavett's family, etc.

And found out that in his sort of last dying days in the 90s that Cavett refused pain medicine because he was fearful that he might say something, you know, in sort of like a foggy state, you know, on powerful pain meds. He was worried or scared, actually, that he might say something and reveal what he knew. And he actually, you know, you think of somebody who's dying and they're in pain to actually avoid taking pain meds because of worrying about something that happened back in 47. And he's telling the Air Force it was just a weather balloon. You know, it seems to me that Cabot went to the grave knowing exactly what happened,

but was clearly still answerable in the 90s to some higher organization that, you know, even sort of outweighed the Air Force and their investigation. Wow, that is, that is dedication beyond anything I can imagine. And it's very telling as well. In terms of that, Nick, there was also an Australian informant who shared what he knew about these experiments in Roswell that you put in the book. Could you tell us a little about this individual? Yeah, well, this, what happened was that, again, to give you like a timeline, the manuscript of body snatches in the desert was handed over to Simon and Schuster in 2004. and what happened was that because it was sort of a very controversial story, Simon

has just sat on it and there was no sort of pre-advanced publicity. In fact, I don't think anybody in euphology apart from Greg, Greg Bishop, knew that I was even writing the book. So it's all very, you know, sort of undercover, so to speak. But unbeknownst to me at the time, roughly about eight or nine months, I think it was, before the book was even published. And a well-respected Australian UFO researcher, Keith Basterfield, Keith had been approached by an elderly guy in Australia

whose father worked for British intelligence, specifically MI5. And MI5 is the British equivalent of the FBI over here. And Keith listened carefully in a personal meeting with this guy in Adelaide, Australia, about how his father had confided in him what he knew about Roswell. which had actually come from, interestingly enough, files that MI5 had on the case. So that kind of suggests that maybe they were sort of following the Roswell story at some point and a collated material on it. But the story that Keith was told was extremely similar to the one that was given to me way back in 2001.

And it basically involved, as Keith told me later on. And I actually spoke personally as well with the, the source too. And what basically happened, he said, was that there were a lot of these strange experiments going on in New Mexico, in 47, and the post-war era, which involved these gigantic balloons, again, which would have, in some cases, these lifting bodies attached to them, others, you know, there were sort of just high-altitude balloon flights. And in some of these flights, we know from the historical record that animals,

Small animals like mice and rats were flown in some of these balloon flights. In other cases, they even used larger animals like apes and pigs. And the story that Keith was given was kind of very similar to the one I got, that, you know, after doing those experiments, they crossed the line, started using human subjects. But of course, the problem was, as Keith saw said, is that the problem was, well, how do you get people to do this? to volunteer. No one's going to volunteer.

Well, in many respects, they didn't want volunteers because that would sort of tell too many people about the story. So what they decided to do, reportedly, was to take people from asylums, from hospitals, people who wouldn't be missed, you know, at a time back then when sort of psychological illnesses, you know, physical handicaps were sort of, people didn't want to talk about it, you know, and unfortunately, a lot of people just got place. in hospitals for, you know, for what often turned out to be short, you know, unfortunate lives. And so the story was that they took a number of people from hospitals, from asylums, and used them in Guinea Peak experiment.

And the one that came down on the ranch, Keith Saw said, was almost like an identical story to that told to me of two devices, like a balloon and a craft. And that kind of makes sense because everybody, who's dug into Roswell deeply, you know, believers or, you know, people who take down-to-earth explanation, all the evidence suggests that there were two crash sites. Now, the way it was explained by Keith Source was that whatever this calamity was that kind of happened high in the sky, it resulted in the explosion of the balloon.

So when I say a balloon, you know, I'm not talking about like a 30-foot kind of thing, we're talking like a giant balloon, like almost like a Zeppelin-type balloon. And so what you have, you have the sudden detachment of this craft, which was heavy. So that just went down vertically and slammed onto the floor of the ranch. But then you have all this balloon debris, which is much lighter, of course, raining down like snow from high above. But because, you know, you've got the weight of the vehicle slamming it down vertically into the ground, then you have the foil-like wreckage, which is very light.

coming down, but also affected by the wind and the fact that it's just light anyway. So it would clearly have come down at a somewhat different location to the craft itself. So that's why at the one location where Mac Brazel initially went out,

you have this huge field of foil from this gigantic balloon, but then you have the craft itself at another site because of the differences of weight and trajectory from the wind versus, you know, when you've got a craft versus balloon wreckage.

And then, of course, both sides of the story, UFO versus secret experiments, pretty much everybody accepts that there was possibly one survivor. And that's what Keith's source said that one of these survived the crash. And also, you know, the UFO side of things, everybody pretty much agrees that, you know, there's a lot of testimony suggesting, again, that one of the people, beings, whatever you want to call them survived. So, you know, there were a lot of parallels between Keith's story and his source's story. And what happened was that when Body Snatchers came out in July 2005, some point after that, Keith read the book. And he was like, whoa, you know, this actually sounds just like

the story that I was given sort of, you know, a year before, even down to some really pinpoint issues, you know, that were so close that it was clear to me that Keith's source, his father, I should say, and the ones I interviewed, had read near identical files. So, you know, that was, that's something that was sort of, you know, pretty significant and which I include in the new book. And then that sort of then developed into other aspects of sort of following up on that story and then trying to figure out where the survivor was taken, you know. Yeah, exactly. Well, let's talk about that survivor aspect, Nick. I mean, in the new book as well, you bring forth the work of Kathy Kasten, a UFO research. and that location being Fort Stanton, this was extremely compelling. And while you drew many connections, this was the most telling for me. Could you tell us a little about Kathy and her work in this case? Hey guys, Ryan Sprague here from Somewhere in the Skies.

The podcast has always been and always will be completely free for you to listen to. But creating it every week takes a lot of time, research and resources. And to be honest, it's just never been free for me to call. create. That's why we've built a few simple ways for you to help support the show and keep it going strong. You can join us over on Patreon or through Apple Premium. Both offer the same awesome perks. Add free episodes, early access to new content, exclusive bonus shows, and even priority to ask our guests your listener questions. It's a quick and easy way to support what we do for just a few bucks a month. And right now, you can even try to try to ask our guests your listener questions. It's a quick and easy way to support

what we do for just a few bucks a month. And right now, you can even try Patreon for free for a week to see if it's right for you. To learn more and to join, head over to patreon.com slash somewhere skies. That's patreon.com slash somewhere skies. Or hit that subscribe button right at the top of your Apple podcast feed. Thank you so much for listening, for supporting, and as always, keep looking up. In modern times, fairies are often portrayed as tiny, pretty, winged women, dancing from flower to flower. However, our ancestors knew fairies took a vast range of forms. Big and small, human-like and bestial, hairy, scaly, feathered and bald, beautiful and horrifying, helpful and hindering. These strange beings, bearing names as varied in numerous as their descriptions,

have haunted humankind for as long as people have been telling stories. The Keystone Hagstone, fairies and other mysterious entities of Pennsylvania, is the latest book from Timothy Renner. When the various peoples of Europe came to live in Pennsylvania, the fairies in all their forms came with them. Leprecons, bans, and pukas. Tommy knockers, cobalds, goblins, and dwarves. Willow the Wisps, dragons, and phantom black dogs.

You'll find them all in this book, as much a part of the Keystone State as they are the old world. Many newspaper articles detailing encounters with these otherworldly beings are reprinted in this book, beside a depth of folkloric research spanning hundreds of years. The Keystone Haguestone is a bestiary of the weird, wild and wonderful spirits, monsters and strange entities of Pennsylvania. The Keystone Hagstone is available now wherever books are sold.

When Body Snatchers in the Desert came out in 2005, this was when UFO updates, Errol Brousnap online discussion forum, was still going. And, I mean, I'd been a subscriber for years. and I had occasionally comments, but when body snatches came out, you know, it was like all hell broke clothes, and which I get, you know, I knew what it was going to happen. But I mean, I'm not someone who, you know, sort of worries or panics, oh, people aren't going to like me. You know, that's not my character. You know, if I find something I think is important to get out, I put it out and, you know, what the consequences are. We come to that when we come to it. So what happened was a lot of people in not just euphology, but between, particularly in the Roswell field, read the book. And that sort of provoked a huge months and months of debate and comments and posts on UFO update. You know, I'd wake up every morning and after breakfast, you know, I'd log on and there'd be like 20 more comments to reply to you.

And there's a lot from people like David Rudiak, Gilles Bourdain, France, Kevin Randall, et cetera, et cetera. And some of the comments and posts were quite rational, you know, just general questions in which, you know, I did my best to answer. And a good debate would go on. There were other people who were just, you know, they were paying for blood. And, yeah, that they got like, my response to them was like the middle finger, you know. I just ranted at them. They ranted at me, I ranted back. And so this went on for a while.

Now, in terms of who was actually commenting, one of them was Kathy Kasten. And Kathy was someone who was quite in her comments at Euro Updates. It was clear that she was open to this theory. So I sort of put out a feeler to her on email and she got back in touch with me. This would have been sort of late 2005. And we chatted on the phone for quite a long time. And it turned out from that conversation that unknowingly to me, but Kathy, as far back as 2001, had been following this Japanese angle of Roswell and the sort of human experimentation angle.

And she sent me over the next couple of years, various papers and articles that she'd put together, and also synopsis of a book and a couple of sample chapters, but which had never been published. We used to chat a lot and, you know, send each other stuff over. And unfortunately, Kathy died at the age of 72. in 2012. Now, before she died, she sent me quite a bit of stuff and said, you know, if you want to use this,

feel free and go ahead. When she died, her family got in touch and basically because they knew we were friends and had covered the same ground, they offered to send me and allow me to use Kathy Spiles. And I mean, literally, what happened was that literally thousands and thousands

of pages of material turned up on the doorstep in big, heavy cardboard boxes. And some of it had nothing to do with UFOs. Some was on mind control research and military history, that kind of thing. But as I went through the material, there was actually turned out to be a lot of material on Roswell and her findings and discoveries on the case, which I'd never seen before, but which were all relevant. For example, she had a number of sources who claimed to know what had happened to the surviving passenger,

if you like or guinea pig on this flight who was apparently critically injured. Now what's interesting is that you have the Foster Ranch where everything came down. Now as far as the story went there were three or four people on board one of them survived

albeit in a critically injured state the others were dead and Kathy's sources told her that the ones who were killed on impact the bodies were taken back to Roswell and the hospital there to where they could be sort of autopsy to try and figure out what went wrong or to preserve them so that down the line

they could be examined more fully. But she said that all the information, or excuse me, Kathy's files suggested that the one survivor was taken to a place called Fort Stanton. Now what's particularly interesting about Fort Stanton, it's an old military base. It actually goes back to the 1800s. and it's actually in Lincoln County where the Roswell crash occurred.

And while it's not, you know, within spitting distance, it's actually no distance at all from the ranch. Now, what's particularly intriguing is that during the Second World War, Fort Stanton was home to so-called enemy aliens, Japanese enemy aliens, as they were known in the Second World War, you know, people who were Japanese, but who lived in the U.S., and then, of course, when we went to war, with the Japanese, a lot of those people were put into kind of like, you know, detention camps. On top of that, Fort Stanton was also at one point home to physically handicapped and psychologically affected people as well. So, you know, you have the key components of the physically handicapped people, psychologically affected people, Japanese people, all housed, if you like, at Fort Stanton.

And Fort Stanton is, as I said, you know, stone, throw from the Foster Ranch. So if Kathy's sources were telling the truth, it would make perfect sense to take a critically injured crew member, if you like, to take them to Fort Stanton because it was so close. You know, it was no distance away at all. And the most outrageous, I mean, it is outrageous, but, you know, if it's true, it's even more sensational. Her sources said that the man was critically injured and died at Fort Stanton several days later.

And to hush it all up, he was actually. buried, his body was buried in the huge cemetery, which overlooks Fort Stanton. And it is a huge cemetery. It was what Fort Stanton was once a tuberculosis hospital and, you know, many people died and there's more than a thousand graves in that cemetery. So, you know, there's a, there's that angle to be, still to be pursued. But I mean, you know, no one can kind of, you know, go around digging up all the, all the graves. Right. That's not going to work. But, I mean, it was a fascinating story. And, And again, it wasn't just sort of, to me, it wasn't just important because it was a fascinating story, but it was because Kathy had uncovered this extensive amount of material, and this was all done without her telling anybody in the community for the most part.

And yet, he dovetailed and paralleled very much what I'd found, what Keith Basterfield had found, etc., etc. Now, one of the people that Kathy focused on significantly was a man. named Randall Lovelace who went on to have a very high position within NASA. And Kathy had a number of sources who told her that he was at the forefront of trying to figure out, you know, or trying to try and save, at least try and save or help or the military to understand why he died and, you know, what had caused the injuries. I mean, obviously, you know, with impact, but what had caused, you know, the accident to occur. And reportedly that Lovelace was out at Fort Stanton within like hours of the military coming across the craft and the bodies

and was asked to sort of offer his opinion such as it could be, you know, under the circumstances. But Lovelace was someone who was based, you know, no distance away in Albuquerque. And he was someone who was at the forefront of early research into high altitude flights, understanding how, you know, get the development into the space race, you know, as to how that would affect people. And as I said, he did become a major figure in NASA. And so, but what's interesting is that there have been rumors over the years

of a love lace connection to Roswell. So again, you know, Kathy was really at the forefront of this. And some of her material, she was actually clearly quite concerned as to what she'd found. and I think reading between the lines that I think she probably destroyed some of the papers for fear that they fell into the wrong hands it would name names and people could end up in major problems. So I think there are certain aspects of Cathy's files we'll never really see. But what we can see, you know, certainly adds a lot of weight to this sort of guinea pig, Japanese, handicapped people, massive balloons. and then, of course, Fort Stanton, you know, which is sort of integral to nearly all of those issues. All of this, Nick, all of this is extremely compelling.

And personally, I feel very logical. But there are those who I'm sure you've heard from and within the UFO community who will argue the artifacts that were found at the crash site, having hieroglyphics, some sort of alien writing found on this, or even the memory foil that many say that they found out. on and say, could you tell us a little about these artifacts and not your argument, but the controversy surrounding what you've brought forward and the original testimony? Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, one of the main issues that people talk about is, you know, this reference to strange writing or hieroglyphics or messages, how do you want to term it, but some sort of what were clearly, you know, like hieroglyphics of some type on some of the wreckage.

Now, people have suggested, I mean, the Air Force had an explanation for this. They said that some of the balloons they sent up had this sort of scotch tape on it, which had the company that made it for them for no particular reason. They put all these little emblems and designs on. But the way it was described, it doesn't actually sound like hieroglyphics or, you know, some strange language or whatever. So that angle, I don't think, is the answer. Now, people have suggested then, well, maybe it's alien hieroglyphics, you know, alien writing, which is an area that Greg, you know, I mentioned earlier, Greg Bishop, has a lot of interest in the whole alien writing angle and not just in relation to Roswell, but, you know, certainly in relation to Roswell too.

So people have said, you know, could it be alien writing? Well, you know, if aliens crashed, then yes, yes, the story I got was that, yes, there were sort of strange markings on part of. of the wreckage that was found at the Roswell site. But the people I spoke to said it was Japanese writing. And I said, well, you know, how does that equate? Wouldn't they not realize that? And, you know, that basically said, well, little ranch is out in New Mexico. It's kind of like almost like condescending, it was said to me in like a condescending insulting way, but basically saying that, well, people who lived out there wouldn't

have known what Japanese writing looked like. whether or not that's true, you know, but that's the story that I was told. And I said, well, why would there be Japanese writing on some of these balloon parts? And they basically gave me an answer kind of similar, it was pretty much an identical, or least similar scenario in the same way that, you know, in the Second World War, when the Allies were sort of dropping bombs on the Germans or whatever, you know, if they would drop a bomb, before they drop it, you know, they would take chalk on board the plane and they'd write, take that ad off on the bomb,

you know what I mean, that kind of thing. And the people I spoke to basically said they were working, although they were brought over to work on these programs in New Mexico, they were still kind of proud of the, you know, the Japanese people supposedly still proud of what they were working on, even though they were sort of forced to work, you know, over here. And so they would leave their own little trademark messages on the, you know, balloons, that kind of thing. Now, whether that's true, I don't know. But if it is true, then it answers a question. If it isn't, then somebody has still gone to sort of a long way

to try and present a down-to-earth explanation for the writing. Do you see what I mean? So, you know, you could, I mean, obviously the people who fully adhere to the idea that it was a UFO crash are going to say, well, no, it was alien writing. But on the other hand, you know, it is a fact that when bombs were dropped in the war, you know, the guys on the planes did put, we write little messages, you know, or they'd put a note to their girlfriend, you know, that kind of thing, just as sort of a, I guess it sort of helped morale, that kind of thing. So maybe, you know, if there was a German, excuse me, Japanese contingent, and they were building these balloons, and they were kind of perceived as their hour balloons,

maybe they would have left messages of who knows what on these devices in the same way that we did in it for a different reason. Now the other angle is the whole issue of the so-called memory metal, the idea that a lot of this strange foil that was found, when you wadded it up, it would sort of spring back to its original form. I mean, this for a lot of people is the one thing more than anything else that really kind of suggests to them at least, that what came down, you know, was some sort of alien spacecraft, a UFO.

Now, you can look at this from two perspectives, that that is literally what it was, but there is another angle on this. Now, up until sort of 46-47, a lot of the balloons that were flown by the military in New Mexico were polythene balloons, you know, that goes for the weather balloons and things like that. But by early 47, they were also researching polythene balloons, but which were laminated with aluminum. Now, these polythene balloons, which were laminated with aluminum, when you squash them together, you know, if you took a sheet of paper and you wadded up in your hand, it stays as like a ball of paper, you know. But the polythine balloons, because they had this sort of rigid polythet, this aluminum coating on them,

when they were when they were wired together they did spring back now granted they didn't spring back to where there was not a single line or crease etc etc which is what some of the witnesses said with the roswell wreckage but the fact is it did bounce back to you know its original shape because it was so bringy because of the aluminum coating on the polypene now whether or not that explains it you know when you look back that some of this testimony came from 30 or 40 years later and they remembered wadding this up and then it popping open. I think it is interesting whether

people agree with me or not, but it is interesting that those polythene aluminium laminated balloons actually weren't around in sort of 45-46. So if anybody had seen a weather balloon come down in 45 or 46, it would just look like a polythine balloon. It was specifically

a year or so later that these aluminum ones started to surface within only the military. And So people would not be familiar with this new type of coating. So, you know, you could make that argument that that might explain the legends, you know, of the memory metal of this strange foil bouncing back to its original state. Because, as I said, in 45 and 46, people hadn't seen anything like that. It was brand new after that era, after that period. See, that's really interesting, Nick.

I mean, we always hear extraordinary claims deserve extraordinary answers. And it seems that with all of this, you've been able to cover every aspect of what it possibly could be. And the fact that, let's say hypothetically, this had nothing to do with aliens in ET presence crashing on the planet. Where do you think, with all this information that you've been given, that you've brought forward, where do you think this leaves us today in terms of the Roswell incident, one of the most prominent cases we have to depend on in uphology? Well, I think, you know, there are a lot of potential issues that could surface. If the theory is proven, I mean, right now, even I have to admit,

that it's a theory or a concept because we don't have solid proof that it was a human experiment. But then again, we don't have proof that it was a UFO. and even by the Air Force's admission, they've never found a single file to suggest it was a mogul balloon. It was just their theory that it was a mogul balloon. So we're wide out, you know, all across the board,

there's no evidence for any particular theory. But if the human experiment angle was proved and as well as a UFO event did collapse, I think you would have a major effect on uphology. And as I see, that's uphology's own form. And the reason why I call it a fault is because I think Roswell should always have been treated as a UFO, excuse me, as just another case. But what's happened is that Roswell has been elevated to the case, the number one event upon which much of the whole UFO history and law relies upon. And of course, you know, it's like that old adage, you know, you put all your eggs in one basket and you drop the basket.

it, everything goes with it, you know, the bigger they are, the harder they fall, that kind of thing. Now, if, you know, it's like, for example, if it was proved tomorrow that, say, the Socorro case in 1964 didn't happen, it was a fake or a hoax or whatever, euphology wouldn't collapse. Even if, say, a prominent abduction story fell apart, people would say, well, there's still plenty of other good abductions. But if Roswell collapses, and because it's been so tied to things like MJ12, Area 51, back engineering,

you know, dead aliens at Wright Patterson. If Roswell collapses as a UFO event, a lot of all that, the rest of the history and the law surrounding uphology and crash UFO stories could also collapse. But it wouldn't have,

that wouldn't happen if Roswell was just considered just another case. But euphology, I think, made a mistake in insisting on having a number one case. Because when you have a number one case, case, the stakes are really high if something goes wrong, you know. So I think that the future, if it was proved, could be, I wouldn't say it'd be bleak for

euphology, but I actually think it might push people more down away from the idea of, well, if Roswell wasn't a nuts and bolts UFO after all, maybe the nuts and bolts angle isn't the one we should be following. And I think it could sort of push things more down. You know, the path of people like John Keel and Jack Vallet went down, where you're dealing with something more paranormal based, you know. But then on the other hand, I think, you know, convincing people who've spent 30, 40 years of their lives

dedicatedly following the UFO angle for Roswell, I really don't see those people changing their minds because it would be such a shock. It would be such a situation that they wouldn't want to deal with. And so consciously or subconsciously, they will continue to deny it. And of course, the problem is, as I said, with any scenario for Roswell,

we don't have any proof. We have, you know, supposition, we have theories, we have ideas, we don't have, you know, the smoking gun documents. Although some people say we do, and they talk about the so-called Ramey memo. You know, this, I'm sure you know this story

about General Ramey photographed with some of the wreckage out of Fort Worth. But he's holding this bit of paper, and part of it is sort of, well, actually most of it is pointed towards the camera. And, of course, with today's technology, the picture's been sort of expanded, blown up, and, you know, studies have been, programs have been used to try and de-blur the writing. And some of it, you know, it is clear what the words are. But the most controversial aspect is one little section that seems to refer to, quote,

the victims of the wreck. now people again who follow the UFO angle or stick to it would say that's the smoking gun that alien bodies were found on the ranch and maybe that is what you know exactly what happened I cannot prove otherwise but what I point out in the book is that you know if if the right is correct victims of the wreck then and it was a UFO crash that came out of the blue I would have thought that the memo would have have said, not the victims of the wreck, but something like the crew or the beings or the spacemen or something like that, to me, as I also pointing the book, the term victims almost has like a human emotional tone to it, you know what I mean? Exactly, yes. And, you know, victims kind of makes, you know, as if they were victims, they were victims of something.

I don't mean like the victims of just a crash, but victims in the sense that they were used, you know, in disturbing situations. And as I said, the way the military works, I would, you know, victims, you don't sort of see much emotion used in government documents. You know, it's just straight to the point these your orders, et cetera, et cetera. The victims of the wreck kind of to me does put, as I said, this emotional human quality on the nature of whatever these entities were, you know. So I think Roswell is still wide open as to what could happen or what did happen,

but it's whether or not we find a smoking gun is going to dictate a firm answer, or are we just going to be talking about Roswell, Nick thinks this, Stan thinks that, Kevin thinks this, that could act, you know, in a worst case to know, that could be the situation that we never solve it and he gets up further and further down the line and it becomes like a euphological Jack the Ripper. You know, it's an old mystery, fascinating story, but it's so long ago there's nothing we can do with it. So maybe one day something will surface,

and that would be my hope, regardless of what the answer is. You know, I think we should all, I don't think any of us should be upholding belief systems when it comes to Roswell. We should all just be looking for the hard facts. And if the fact surface, one or more people are going to be right and one more people are going to be wrong. And I would hope whatever the, whichever camp each of us fall into, will be man enough to stand up and say, okay, you know, it's this and it's that.

But don't get caught up in beliefs and because the story sounds exciting and conspiratorial, just go where it goes, you know. Yeah, exactly. I mean, when it comes down to it, Nick, like you said, we're all searching for the truth. And with bringing these theories forward, we have to admit that they are just theories. But if we don't come up with new theories, we're never going to get anywhere. So I think that's a very good point. We're all searching for the same thing. And that's the truth behind what happened in Roswell. Yeah.

But the big problem, though, is, of course, emotions get involved, you know. And I mean, which is normal because, you know, none of us are sort of, you know, emotion-free robotic machines. you know, we're people. We have our emotions and thoughts and ideas. So that will never go away. And I don't think to a degree it should go away. But I do think, you know, that we should just sit back and kind of take a deep breath and realize that there are other scenarios. And, you know, we should look into.

We're investigating UFO cases. You know, we're not trying to uphold a religion. Nick, you are going to be attending the Roswell Festival. on the 70th anniversary, am I correct? Yes, I'm going to be burned in effigy down the main street. I was just going to say, how are you feeling about that? Oh, I don't mind. I was there for the 60th anniversary.

And like I said, you know, I'm not the sort of person who, you know, panics or worries about things like this. You know, I have a strong character and I'm happy to debate whether in a relaxed format or in a heated format. I'm happy to debate the pros and cons of this theory versus that theory. And I know you asked me in one of your email question, you know, you said, do I even care what people think? Well, I do, I care in the sense that, you know, I like to know what people think of the theory, obviously. And I like to get feedback, again, regardless of whether that's good or bad, because I like to know, you know, where the community's head is at. you know, the collective head is at. So I care in that sense, and I care in the sense that I'm always grateful, you know, when people follow what I do. You know, I'm not some sort of ego-driven guy who

sort of dismisses his audience, you know, I think it's important to know what people think. But I don't, but on the other hand, if people disagree with me, that I don't care, you know, I'll just fight my position. You know, I don't lose sleep thinking, oh, if I write a book about Roswell as a secret experiments, are people going to stop booking me to speak of their conferences? My mind doesn't think like that. You know, I don't worry about those kind of things or what are people going to say about me. People can say what the hell they like about me and I'll say what I, hell I like to say about them, you know, you have to sort of have thick skin in this field. And if you're going to go against the accepted grain, then you better be. You're going to be able to. You're going to be a lot of

be prepared and I am, you know, and just as I was back in 2005. But they're on the, by the same token, the people who think it was a mogul balloon or aliens should quite rightly, you know, defend their turf until we know for sure what it was that happened. Yeah. Well, and I mean, the fact that you are open to feedback is primarily the reason we have a follow up to body snatchers. So I think that's a very good point. And I'm glad to see that that, that you, take that, that you're open to that, because many are not in this field. So that's in very... No, they're not. But minds are made up. And a mind made up is fine if you're on the right track. If you're on the wrong track, a mind made up is a disaster because you'll never,

ever go down, you know, that right path. Yeah, very good point. Well, Nick, what's next on your path, my man? What do you got going on? It seems like you're pumping a book out every day. We hear that cliche whenever someone brings up your name. But it's true. What comes next for you besides the 70th anniversary of Roswell? Well, actually, two very different books. I've got one coming out in September with Llewelyn called Shapeshifters, which is a study of, as a title, suggests, sort of shape-shifting creatures throughout history, mythology, folklore.

I mean, everybody thinks of shapeshifters, I think, are werewolves. And there are a couple of chapters in there on that, but also like Native American stories of skinwalkers there and their African cults that believed in the transformation of people into leopards, leopard cults and things like this. And stories

from the UK of these ghostly red-eyed black dogs, which actually inspired Conan Doyle to write the hand of the Baskervilles. Those creatures can reportedly shape, shift and so on. So that'll be out in September. And then in February, which is

not too far away, I guess, halfway through this year, I've got a book out on the entire Slender Man controversy called The Slender Man Mysteries. And it sort of covers issues of although the, you know, the Slender Man was created for the internet and on the internet, it seemed to have sort of strode out of the internet into the real world. So it covers, the book covers a angle such as, you know, could the Slender Man be like a tulper, you know, a thought form come to life as a result of all the people who follow the stories or is the internet becoming sort of self-aware and creating these images or are we living in kind of like a matrix world where you know we the slender man has

now been inserted into the matrix that we're living in in the same way did in the movies you know they almost have their equivalence with the agents you know these sort of emotionalist guys in black suits who are inserted into the movie version of the matrix so it covers a lot of things like that Tulpers, the Matrix, you know, virtual reality, what is reality? Can dreams, you know, can things created in dreams sort of stride out into the real world? So, and of course, a lot of case reports as well of the slendomance. Oh, very interesting. Yeah. The idea of thought form has always really been interesting to me. So I'm definitely looking forward to that. Well, Nick, the book is The Roswell UFO Conspiracy exposing a shocking and sinister secret. Where can

we find the book and where can we find out everything you're up to? Well, I have a blog which I update most days called World of Whatever, and the address is Nick Redfern-14. F-O-R-T-E-A-N, Nick Redfern-Fortian.com. The new book, Roswell UFOC conspiracy, you can get it on Amazon, and you can also order it through Barnes & Noble stores as well. And people can also reach me at Twitter, Nick Redfern, UFO, or also at Facebook, just scroll down. And there are a few Nick Redfern's, but just go down the list and you'll find me, so. Excellent, man.

Well, you know, all things considered, if you survive this Roswell anniversary, I'd love to have you on again, my man. It's been an immense pleasure. Thank you so much for training. Yeah, I can let you know how it all went. Please do. Any updates would be great. Live tweet the event. All right.

Thanks again, Nick. All right. That's it for this week's episode. Again, to read all of Nick Redfern's work, you can find him at Nick Redfern, fortian, dot blogspot.com. As usual, if you haven't already, please consider rating and reviewing the show. It makes the show more visible to gain new listeners. If you have a guest or topic suggestion, reach me at Sprague at somewhere in the skies.com.

I'll see you next Monday. Have a great week, and remember, keep your feet on the ground, but never stop searching somewhere in the skies. Hey, y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what if.

Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.ca. Wayfair, every style, every home.