Somewhere in the Skies - UFO HAPPY HOUR: Volume Two

Episode Date: February 4, 2019

On episode 94 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, Rob Kristoffersen of the Our Strange Skies podcast pulls up a bar stool once again for another UFO Happy Hour! He and Ryan talk about a man who was shot dead holding a mysterious object while trespassing on a top-secret Nevada testing site. They also touch on a 2011 case where a man went missing at Dugway Proving Ground (aka "Area 52) and then Rob runs us through his Top 3 UFO cases. Pull up a stool and grab a brew. This is going to be a messy one! Our Strange Skies Podcast: CLICK HERE Watch ROSWELL: MYSTERIES DECODED for free! Available now at www.cwseed.com Patreon: www.patreon.com/somewhereskies Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com YouTube Channel: CLICK HERE Official Store: CLICK HERE Order Ryan's Book by CLICKING HERE Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Opening and Closing Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES is part of the podcast network. To learn more, CLICK HERE SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES is sponsored by HelloFresh. To receive 50% off your first order, use promo code: SOMEWHERE50 at checkout by visiting www.HelloFresh.ca Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Netflix. Most valuable promotions in Netflix are hosting a blockbuster triple headliner Saturday, May 16th. Rhonda Rousey returns to face fellow woman's MMA pioneer Gina Carano in the main event. Plus co-main's Nate Diaz versus Mike Perry. And the best heavyweight in the world, Frances Ngano versus Felipe Lenz. Watch Rhonda Rousey versus Gina Carrano, live only on Netflix. Saturday, May 16th at 9 p.m. Eastern Center time, 6 p.m. Pacific Time. Hey y'all, Ryan Spreck here.

As you all know, the Somewhere in the Sky's podcast is always free to consume, but it isn't free to create. That's why I've started the Somewhere in the Sky's Patreon campaign. On a monthly basis, you give what you think the show is worth. You'll be helping the show continue, grow, and to be something truly communal. And remember, there are rewards for each level of contribution, and the list is only growth. So please, help Summer in the Sky's Now

by becoming a patron. To contribute and to learn more, visit www.pateron.com backslash Somewhere Skies. Thank you for your support. And now on with the show. They're out there, man. I've been out there in Aurora, Texas.

They've got them little graves and stuff. Yeah, I've been out there and, I don't know, I'm planning a trip. I'm planning a trip. We're going out to like Arizona or something, figure something out, or not Arizona. What was it? Yeah, it was Arizona, right? Air Force One where they found all that stuff.

I got pictures of Roar. I've seen grave sites. They're out there, man. And I'm flying in the plane. I'm always hallucinating. But who really knows what I'm looking at? You know what I'm saying? Who knows, dude? They could be made of water.

I don't even know. Water, man. You heard the man. Water. They could be made of anything. Extraterrestrial. That extraterrestrial. This is somewhere in the skies with Ryan Sprague.

Rob, welcome back to another edition of UFO Happy Hour. How are you, my man? I'm good. Thanks for having me on again. How are you, dude? I am good. It's one in the afternoon here, and I have got a nice Templeton ride sitting next to me here with one ice cube. I'm going classy today, man. So what did you bring to the bar stool today? Well, we're going to reprise this again, and we've got a, we've got a, we've got

got a nice 16 ounce aluminum can of Labat Blue because you just can't go wrong with this Canadian Pilsner. I love it. And, uh, you know, it's, it's not going to fill me up. So it's the best. It is

the best. It's a miracle drug. I can't wait, man, to get back on the East Coast and have my Canadian beers again. I miss it so, so much. I can understand, man. I can understand. Because it's just, It takes the edge off the end of the day.

And, you know, it doesn't weigh you down. Yep. I couldn't agree more. We'll see if I even make it through this interview with bourbon. I don't know what I was thinking. But one in the afternoon is we're recording this on the West Coast. But, you know, I need all the drinks I can get right now, man. I'm in the process of packing and moving back. So if it's a little echoy, I apologize to the listeners and to you,

my sound quality might not be as good as it usually is, but we will, we will barrel through this. Oh, yeah, man, we're going to, we're going to do it. I wanted you to come to the table with your top three UFO cases today. And knowing you, of course, you did not fail me. You picked some amazing cases that we're going to discuss in a little bit. But there's two stories I wanted to bring up. One, most recently, that I believe I found through you and several other researchers. And that was the story that recently broke from Tyler Rogoay over at the Warzone,

which is a sector of the more widely known online news site, The Drive. And it involved a bizarre chase through a high-security Nevada nuclear test site that ended in someone being shot dead. This is crazy, man. Yeah, this story broke on Tuesday. And, like, somebody posted it on Twitter. I was like, what? Somebody was killed. So basically, yeah, on Monday at 5.18 p.m., there was a guy in a car.

He drove through a security checkpoint at what they call Area 23, which is designated as Mercury. And a car chase ensued with not only private security, but the Nye County Sheriff Deputies. and it went for eight miles. The guy eventually pulled over, got out of his vehicle, and he was holding some kind of what they called a metallic cylindrical object. What the hell is that? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Could they be any more enigmatic?

No, no, definitely not. And so this guy, he's not listening to the commands of the security personnel and the sheriff's deputies. and he basically was going to go confront them and they opened fired. Shot and killed him right on the spot there. So, yeah, we have a lot of questions, and they're not getting answered. And I know it's early on, this story is still developing, but there's no motive of why he was there, what he was doing, his level of sobriety, which I thought was funny, Tyler Ruggway brings up. But it's very rare for these things to happen at this nuclear test site.

I mean, we're all familiar with Area 51 and the signs saying, we can shoot you on premises if you trespass. But, you know, these other areas, this vast area of Nevada, the test site, we have no idea what else is going on out there. Apparently, there could be, like, ordinance out there or, like, things that could explode. So who knows why this guy was going out there, what his plans truly were. Yeah, and I mean, like, this is now, it's been kicked to the FBI, so it's probably going to be a long time coming before we really get any information if we do get any information. Because we don't know, you know, what kind of national security risk this guy was, and we really don't know what the heck he was doing.

I mean, he's pretty brash to just, you know, plow past security detail and just... Yeah. The problem with this too, Rob, is like, because, you know, they shot him dead, there's very little to work backwards on to find out why he did this. I mean, it probably lays in whatever that object was he had with him. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I don't either, man. And it's like, it's kind of terrifying, you know?

Because you just, it's that unknown of, nobody's ever really done this before or if they have. We've never heard of it. So, yeah, it's just frightening to think about. It's frightening. It's fascinating. And, of course, all of us UFO, people find it intriguing because it is near Area 51. But at the end of the day, we got to remember someone was shot and killed. I mean, this guy's gone.

So it's tragic beyond anything else. And, you know, that comes up with another case that you and I had been discussing similar to the Nevada testing sites. we have Dugway Proving Ground as well in 2011. This kind of reminded me of what was going on here, a top secret base where, you know, a guy wasn't pronounced dead just yet. He was pronounced missing. And that was Joseph Bushling, a soldier. He was assigned at Fort Collins, Colorado.

But then he was stationed at Dugway. And for those who don't know, Dougway is considered by many to be Area 52, where a lot of top secret stuff is going on. UFOs have been reported. So, yeah, this was back in 2011. Joseph borrowed a friend's car, and they think he went out there to sightsee,

you know, the desert, and he ended up calling a friend and left a message saying that he'd run out of gas. He was going to try to walk back to Dougway Proving Ground, and he said he was very cold. He lost his flip-flops, and he was using his shirt as footwear, and it was raining.

So, I mean, everything that could go wrong seemed to be going wrong from at this point. He'd never arrived back at Dougway and he'd never been heard from again. No, and as far as we can tell, there's never been a body found and I mean, Dougway is vast in size. Like, you could probably go missing and nobody would find you. They also made mention of how there's like unexploded ordinance out there. So there's a, you know, chance that he could have stepped on something and, you know, met his end that way. But yeah, it was just, it was kind of weird because he was heading towards, it's, I don't know exactly how it's pronounced, Kalau Gate, which is one of Doug Ways Gates. And they, he never made it there.

And they ended up going out in a pattern from where they found the car. up into this gate and they never found his body at all. The only thing that they found of his was in Arkansas Razorbacks hat. That was it. So you got to wonder what happened to this guy. Where did he go? And the last update I ever saw on this case, his parents had set up a Twitter account. and there was a dead link to a, I believe it was a blog post about some bones found out near Dougway.

So there's a chance they may have found him, but we just don't know. As far as I can tell, he's still, he's officially declared dead, but he's also on many sites listed as missing. Right. I mean, the authorities ruled out suicide and foul play. and like you said, they did pronounce him dead. There was a death certificate issued in 2014, you know, so his family could receive military benefits and life insurance. So that's kind of understandable at this point,

the fact that, you know, we found nothing and he hasn't shown up anywhere. But his friend, who he called, likes to think that maybe he's still out there somewhere or made it to somewhere safer and is living the good life. But again, just another tragic, tragic thing to happen at these mysterious top secret installations. I mean, Dougway itself has so much lore. Look at the sheep incident that happened back in the 60s, wasn't it? Yeah, it was the Skull Valley incident in March of 68 where, you know, all these sheeps, all these sheep on farmers' land just died. It's hundreds of sheep.

and it was linked to a chemical at Dougway Proving Ground because Dougway is essentially where we test chemical weapons. So, yeah, it was linked back to that. And yeah, I feel bad for the Bushling family here because they seem to think that something happened to him and that they know what happened to him. And, you know, your heart just goes out to him because it's just – and I think what people are, you know, need to understand is this guy was a medic he was he was going uh later that week down to texas to actually get uh his RN uh to become an RN a registered nurse so he got a wonder it's like he was he was definitely panicked yeah right so he was panicked so that kind of it kind of rules out that you know he went out there to you know commit suicide or anything like that i mean he was on

the right track to some pretty good stuff in his life. So, yeah, again, just a tragedy all around. But, you know, besides that, you mentioned the sheep incident in the 60s. We also, in 2011, I found an article where the facility at Dougway was put under an extreme lockdown when the loss of a toxic nerve agent again was lost and recovered. They had to shut down the entire, like, area. So they got to, I don't know what's going out there in Dougway, but they got to be more careful, man. These things are like killing 6,000 sheep in the 60s was like the total number. And now a nerve agent like goes missing. And on the same day, like numerous UFO reports were cited in the area.

So, oh man, this Dougway probing ground, dude, I look forward to hearing more about what's going on out there. They probably didn't help themselves when Rob Lowe and his kids decided to go. there on their TV show. Exactly. Again, once these bases are acknowledged, you know everything is getting moved somewhere else. But our good friend Dave Rosenfeld, he's a UFO investigator. He goes out to Dougway all the time constantly and monitors all the weird aerial phenomena going on out there. So I wish him all the luck out there. I hope he's being careful.

And we got to keep our eye on Dougway. I guess that's the only way to sort of put it. Yeah, I mean, he knows that that bass, like the back of his hand. So, I mean, he's the guy for it. And yeah, it's just now it's in kind of in the spotlight because people are being drawn more and more to it. So you had to be interesting to see what happens at Dougway going forward. And I did, I will admit, I did a deep dive on Reddit, which I don't suggest anyone out there. No.

I did do a deep dive and just didn't see if anyone was talking about Dougway and I found like so many military people who were saying yeah like Dougway I wanted to be stationed there and it was always denied and whenever you'd ask about going to Dougway like it was immediately stamped down like no no no one's getting put out at Dougway like no information out there on Dougway like just pick somewhere else so I found that pretty interesting that even a lot of military people on Reddit were saying, we have no idea what's going on out there. And we want to know too. So yeah, yeah, I guess we'll leave it at that when it comes to that. But the real reason, Rob, I wanted to have you here today, not just to have a beer and a burden, but I want to hear about your top three UFO cases. I thought this would be a really good way to wet our whistle and get back to UFOs here on somewhere in the sky. So I'm going to let you take the steering wheel with this man. Which one would you like to start with? Are we going to go, you know, ascending order, descending order, whatever you want, my man. I think we'll go from,

we'll go chronologically backward. We'll start with 1977 and the Lee Parish abduction. This is an abduction case that not a lot of people know about. It's briefly mentioned in an apro news bulletin and like occasionally you can find uh bits and pieces of information about it on there on various websites but and you can find some pretty cool looking artwork too but essentially this 19 year old guy lee parish he's he works on his family farm he was visiting a friend a female friend and left her house at one o'clock at night and he was driving home and he's sees a light coming from, he kind of experiences missing time and he just sees the light fly away. And what he notices is that he's missing 35 minutes.

Now, this is a five-minute drive for him from this woman's house to his home. So he was kind of freaked out about it. And he went home. His mother was asking him, where, you know, where did you been? why are you home so late? And he proceeds to kind of panic a little bit, but the next day, and what's great about this case is like there's no time lapse here. The next day he has, he goes in for a hypnosis session.

And what he finds is that an object stopped his truck in the middle of the road. And from his memory, he's in the truck. and then all of a sudden he's on board this craft. And he's standing in a room and in front of him to his left is this really tall. He guessed that it was about 10 feet tall. It looked like a wall with a bump on it. And in front of him was, I would say the best way to describe it would be a large, like an oversized adding machine almost. And it was the color white.

And on his right was this. rectangular object that he said resembled like a Coke machine, like an old school Coke machine. Right, right. And all of a sudden, this black wall comes forward and it has an arm on it and it just hits Lee

on his left arm. And he starts freaking out. He, and to quote him during the hypnosis sessions, he says, oh no not the black one and I'm like oh god that is not a good quote out of context no it isn't but that one seems to unsettle him

but then the red coat machine has an arm of its own and it gets him in I believe like the shoulder or the neck and it kind of calms him down and what he believes and what he feels is that the white machine in front of him is kind of this it's the leader

almost and it's observing what's happening and the other two are kind of this these subservient robots and what happens is the red boxy

robot thing basically backs off it ends up going behind the white machine and eventually the black wall thing basically takes its arm away and the white machine goes behind the black wall. And after that, he finds himself transported back into his truck. And that's at the end of it.

It lasted 35 minutes. But it's just so, I don't even know how to categorize this because nobody, it's not like these are robots, they're machines. and there was no other beings that he interacted with. And you're just at a loss. Like, what happened here? And he's this 19-year-old kid that has nothing to gain by telling his story. And it's a story that still is not, you know, widely known, even in most of UFO culture,

unless you're, you know, into perusing old April bulletins. Exactly. Yeah, I mean, before you talked about this on your own show, I hadn't really. heard about it and I it's hard to find anything on the internet about it which is you know your last ditch effort when you're trying to look for UFO information is go to the internet but um with this one now how did we get his story did he he he remembered this right he recalled it or was he put under uh basically he contacted apro okay and there was a local uh psychologist that i believe was also uh hip to, you know, hypnosis and was able to do it, like, the very next day.

Hip to hypnosis, love it. Oh, yeah. Hip to hypnosis. Copywriting that, my man, along with two secret space program, right? Oh, yeah. Definitely. Suck it, Corey Good. What can I say?

I know the subtitle of this episode now. Either hip to hypnosis or suck it, Corey. Good. This is one of those episodes. That's okay. We're drinking, man. We're drinking, which is fine. But it's such a baffling case. And like, look at all the weirdness that is Kentucky.

And I don't think people realize just how weird Kentucky is. I mean, we have, we've got the hell year documentary series that is just phenomenal. I urge everybody, if you have not seen it, stop what you're doing and go watch it it it's enthralling it brings a new view to how we look at not just it's not a documentary about goblins it's about more than that oh yeah i mean that that itself relates in the way to the kelly hopkinsville goblin encounter from 1955 and and and and it goes through the spiraling thing where for lee parish it It wasn't the only kind of, there was a more well-known abduction account that took place a year before involving three women near Stanford, Kentucky.

And they were celebrating, I believe, Mona Stafford, it was her name, her birthday. And all three of them get abducted. And they end up going through hypnosis. and they don't even get all the answers that they need. All they can really say is that they were tortured by these shadowy figures that they couldn't really make out. But in probably the National Enquirer's only, like, a move of sympathy that I could ever point to them, they actually, they were in desperate need of psychiatric help.

So basically what they did is they, they ended up paying for it for the exclusive right to their story. So that's about the only case of the National Enquirer having a heart that I can think of. Yeah, really. Yeah, I know. They weren't too good to us back in the day when it came to UFO stories. Let's just put it that way. Yeah, exactly.

Or to people who claimed authentic and genuine experiences. Yeah. The second case, and this is one that, whenever I talk to anybody about this, this case is so, it's so weird that there's so many elements going on to it. So this is the abduction case of a man named David Stevens. And David Stevens, he had just gotten out of the Navy, like maybe a few weeks before. and he meets this guy named Glenn Gray. They have the, they both work factory jobs.

I think one works in a meat processing plant, and I forget what the other one did, but they both worked night shifts. So they kind of just hit it off, and they moved into this trailer in Maine. And one night, they both had the same day off, and they were up late because they didn't want to really mess up their sleep. schedule so they were just hanging out listening to music and they heard a booming sound and it was like around one o'clock in the morning again it's we're in the witching hour damn and they get drawn outside and when they when they go outside they don't see anything but glen gray uh turns to david Stevens and he says, hey, let's go for a ride. And he's like, yeah, sure, no

problem. That's fine. So they hop in the car and they're driving driving for a little while. And eventually the car starts to move and drive on its own. David Stevens

loses control of the vehicle and it takes them down these series of backroads. And what happens is they both see this object in a field. It looks like lights to them, so they figured, oh, there's people out there.

They must be looking for something. And then these lights begin to rise up, and they come near the car. And they're both kind of freaking out. There's an incident of missing time, and it's almost like a cutscene and a fast forward here. And the two desperately at first try to start the car

and they can't do it, and eventually they're able to start the vehicle, they just book it. And this UFO follows them and it toys with them for a number of miles and for a number of hours. They just went back and forth with this UFO. And eventually at like 7.30 in the morning, it finally flies away. and they both go home and they are just freaked out. And almost immediately they had poltergeist-like activity in their house.

Wow. Yeah, there was bangs. There was cupboards opening and stuff like that. And eventually they, I believe they were, they contacted the International UFO Bureau back when it was a, and running and eventually they finally get into hypnosis sessions and what you find is that when they first saw the UFO rise up out of that field what had happened was and I forgot to mention it but when they came when they came out of that missing time uh episode they were on the other

side of the road they went from the right hand side of the road to the left hand side of the road And what he finds is that he was taken, David Stevens was taken aboard this craft. He was, he interacted with these beings that he described as having mushroom-shaped heads. And they're kind of a gray archetype in a way. I mean, they have these big bulbous heads, but like, they almost look like, in a way they remind me of a hammerhead shark. If a hammerhead shark had like a really rounded head. and these eyes on the side that had they were white with the black pupils and he sketched these right i think i've seen sketches of that he sketched it and then uh one of the investigators actually did a really

a really great sketch of this thing and like when you look at it it's wearing this like almost flowing robe it's um it's got webbed hands which is very very weird at one point when David's first arrives on the UFO, he's, one of these beings, you know, comes into the room. They draw them into another where there are multiple other beings. And basically they want him to take his clothes off. Well, he doesn't want anything to do it. He doesn't want to have anything to do with that.

So he ends up hitting one of them in the face. Awesome. Travis Walton style. Right. And they back up. They give him some space. And then he comes forward. And then he just kind of complies with whatever they want.

And they conduct a medical examination on him. And I believe they even take blood at a certain point. And they deposited him back in his car. And realistically, I don't understand why the UFO toyed with them for another, like, three hours until it flew away. But it did. And one of the most fascinating features of this account is that he worked with a little. a, he was a family physician, but he also did hypnosis to help aid in women going through childbirth to try to ease pain and stuff like that. His name is Herbert Hopkins. And he went

through about six or so hypnosis sessions. And they learned all this. But one of the most fascinating things was when Herbert would ask him about the feet. He wouldn't describe the feet. He would just ignore the question. And then the only thing that he ever said about their feet is that some were wearing shoes and some weren't. That was it. And it's like one of those nagging details that I kind of get obsessed with at times because more and more when you go over some abduction accounts and even close encounter of the third kind reports, they don't describe the feat for whatever reason. Yeah, you're right.

Yeah. And maybe it's just because, I mean, you know, it's the feat. It's the lowest point to a to a humanoid or a human being. Like, it's probably the least interesting point to people. But, like, they always describe everything else in, like, full detail. But the feat, it just never seems to be. There was, yeah, poltergeist activity in their home in David Stevens' parents' home. There was polterlice-pultergeist-like activity, knocks on doors, and it was experienced by family members.

The, and this links to Herbert Hawkins is this, he had a men and black experience that may not, in fact, be true. or there's a a blog post that that says that it was completely and totally made up but you know that is what it is but that abduction account is just

it's so and I mean it ruined Glenn Gray he actually ended up fleeing to I think Kansas because his own family didn't believe him yeah what do you do at that point when someone is so vocal about it the other one doesn't really want to talk it at all. I mean, Glenn never talked about this from what I can gather afterwards, really.

No, he didn't. And he refused to be hypnotized. So we don't even really know what the full level of his experience was. So. Yep. Yep. I've dealt with that a lot with claimed abductees who I've asked them, like, do you want to go under regression? Or is it something you've ever considered? And a lot of them say no. You know, I have the faint memories or, you know, I have the faint memories, or snippets in my memory now, I don't want to know any more of what happened to me, or I don't want something to be, you know, implanted into my subconscious that didn't actually happen.

So the whole hypnosis thing, obviously, we have to take with a grain of salt. But when you get a story like this from Stevens, like it's so, like you said, it's so out there and so weird. And I'm like, how could anyone make all this up? Yeah. He has nothing to gain from it.

This is not a widely known abduction account. If you peruse the pages of issues of Flying Saucer Review from the mid to late 70s, you'll find these accounts. But that's where they remain. And you will find certain little mentions of it here and there. There was an article by Micah Hanks. He mentioned it briefly. Richard Dolan mentions it in one of his UFOs in the National Security State books.

But that's all it ever gets is just this brief mention. But it's also preserved in a great book called UFO Dynamics by Bertold E. Schwartz, who was a psychiatrist who I believe was affiliated with APRO for a number of years.

But I highly recommend UFO Dynamics, get your hands on this book. It's hard to, it's hard to come by for a decent price, but there are so many great cases. There's an interview with Betty Hill years later talking about UFO experiences that she had after the one that her and Barney had. And there's other contactee claims. And there's a, like, a story from Woodstock. It's, it's really great. It's a really great collection. Interesting. So we might have had a alien invasion going on at Woodstock. You never know, man. It kind of seems that way. There was an invasion of something happening. Yeah, yeah. All right, my man. So, well, this case is just the encounter of David Stevens is amazing. It's so rich with detail. And you heard it here on UFO Happy Hour. So go get that book that Rob just brought up, please. I can't wait to get my hand.

on that if I can get my hands on it. All right. So what is our number one top UFO case for Rob Christofferson? For me, it's always going to be the case of Lonnie Zamora and his

close encounter of the third kind. Perfect. I can't think of a better one to do this. Yeah, cheers to that. Yeah, absolutely. My history with this case goes back to unsolved mysteries. It's one of the very few UFO cases that I can think of that they ever did.

They covered Gulf Breeze. They covered the Hudson Valley sightings. They covered the other one that... Yeah, they covered Roswell, which is how Roswell made it to the mainstream for a lot of people. And they covered one of the most terrifying stories, the story of the Alagash abductions, which are just terrifying. Long story short on that one, folks. Do not signal a UFO with a flashlight when you're in the middle of the woods. Just don't do it.

No matter what Stephen Greer tells you, do not vector any UFO, guys. No, no, don't do it. Don't do it. But Lonnie Zamora is the one case that I remember so vividly from Unsolved Mysteries. And I believe it's the first time that I ever heard the name Jay Allen Heineck, to be honest. And I was a little kid at the time. But I have this faint memory of being in middle school. And we were doing this English project where we were basically taking apart the song.

We didn't start the fire by Billy Joel. We were breaking it down in the decade. We were researching and writing reports on like all of the events that he mentions in there. And the other part of the project was that we were supposed to add on. to it and stuff like that and and and put uh events that we think should have made it into that song into it and it was kind of a really cool project but uh lani zomora is maybe one of the best ufo witnesses on on record oh absolutely i i firmly believe that and you know i don't want to disparage him really at all but like he's not a highly intelligent individual he's not but he's not

somebody who's going to make stuff up. Now, the story starts, this is 1964, April 1964, and it's about, it's close to six at night, and he's chasing a speeder south of Sicoro, New Mexico, and he suddenly hears this high-frequency roar, but he doesn't describe it as like, kind of like a rocket or anything like that, which, uh, which is kind of weird. Um, but he, he describes it as going from a high frequency to a low frequency. And, uh, he believes that it's the, uh, mayor's local, it's the dynamite shack that is going to explode, because the mayor just happened to have one, you know, because every town needs a, like you do. Yeah, every town needs a old dynamite jack so he uh breaks off pursuit and he heads in the direction of this sound and he uh it takes

him a little bit to get up this little hill but when he does he he can see what he thinks is a car that's overturned and uh you can see people outside these people uh apparently see him coming and they uh disappear in back into this object but once Lonnie Zamoric is close enough, what he realizes is that this is an oval shaped object that has, from his vantage point, what he can see is there's two landing platforms down. And he also describes hearing this sound, which it sounds like a door closing in a way. and this object that's sitting there, all of a sudden that familiar roaring sound comes back. It goes from a low frequency to a high frequency, and all of a sudden he just sees this flame coming out of the bottom of it.

And he can feel the heat. He takes cover behind his car. He ends up hitting his ankle on his bumper, but he ultimately makes it further back behind the car. and when the sound stops, he turns around and he looks, and he can see this object hovering about 15 to 20 feet off the ground. And at first it starts to slowly move away,

and it barely makes it over the top of this dynamite shack. And it just zips away from him. He's white as a ghost. He doesn't understand what he has seen. And he radios in for, backup and eventually Sergeant Chavez one of his friends

from the police force eventually makes it out to him he can see that Lonnie Zamora is shucking up he's pale he's sweating profusely but he goes down to the landing site and he can see that there are bushes that

are on fire there was some landing marks in the ground trace evidence thank God yeah yep trace evidence and soon after you've got Blue Book coming in to investigate this case, Heinek was on the ground within, I believe, 48 hours. And he was with... Classic Heinek. Oh, yeah.

And the most amazing thing about that story is that when they're driving into Socorro, their car gets a flat tire. And Heinex not waiting. He hitchhikes into town. Two, a one, two, three, four. Give me a break, give me a break, break me off a piece of that Kit Kat bar. Give me a break. Give me a break. Break me off a piece of that Kit Kat Bar.

That chocolate, crispy taste on a piece of that Kit Kat bar. Have a break. Have a Kit Kat. Oh, God, that's amazing. I can't wait to see if Project Blue Book, the television show, covers that. I really hope they do because it's too good a story not to. And, you know, we'll get to that. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. So Heinek gets out there. He does his investigation and they radio around to because I forget what basis around there. Oh, White Sands Missile Range is just, it's nearby. They radio over there. It's nothing from them. And, you know, Heinek, this is one of those cases that is a high watermark for Heinek because of, he initially railed against the close encounter of the third kind cases. He was, he didn't like them.

But if you read the UFO experience, he talks about just because you don't like something doesn't mean that they aren't happening and then it doesn't deserve to be quantified. So Heinek really, you know, he looks at Zamora and sees a guy who's really credible. And a guy who ultimately after this experience happens and after he shakes off, you know, the fear and stuff is ultimately upset because he didn't reach his quota for tickets for the day. A typical cop. I love it. But we also have a correlated sighting of this object from, I believe it's a fair. family in a station wagon that end up calling a local radio station to report it. But there's also the story of this guy named Gary T. Wilcox.

And his story, it takes place in, I believe it's called Tioga City in New York. And he's a farmer. And one day he's on the same day of the Zamora citing hours before. he's looking to increase his farmland and he comes to this one area and you can see this oval shaped object that has landed and there are these two humanoids

in these white jumpsuits that are outside they talk to him but what he says is that it's not they didn't talk to him from their mouth it felt like it was coming from their abdomen of all places and they tell him they tell him that they're from Mars and that they need fertilizer and uh you know

Gary T. Wilcox nice guy he he goes and you know he goes and gets that fertilizer um while he's doing that the ship takes off and leaves but he still yeah this but he still comes back with the fertilizer okay and the next day when he goes out there it's gone uh yeah so it's it's an interesting correlated, kind of correlated citing that is big for Jacques Valet in his contact trilogy in one of the books

and he briefly mentions it in Passport to Magonia but it's interesting. There's one issue that I kind of have with it and when Zambora saw this object

when it eventually went silent he could see on the side of this object, there was a symbol on it. Yes, yeah, I know this is a big contentious part of the case. Yeah. So, the way that he drew it and the way that he's drawn it repeatedly over and over again is what it looks like is it's in red. There's like a half circle.

Underneath the half circle is an arrow that's pointing up and underneath that is a horizontal line. That is what he is drawn. Now, we've been researching this case for about three months. I've got a really fantastic researcher. His name's Rory, he's been really diving into this case, going through the blue book files and just picking it apart, detail by detail. And one of the things that we have arrived at is that what he has written down,

and the symbol that people associate that I just described is not the actual. symbol that he saw. It is a different symbol that basically looks like an inverted V, and there are three horizontal lines going through it. And a lot of people describe that as a decoy symbol, but we've actually, we've gone through the Blue Book reports, we've gone through the APRO bulletins. We've gone through testimony that basically the people that were

invested, the people from the government Heinick excluded that were investigating this case said, do not go public with this symbol. Because it's kind of an investigative hallmark here. If somebody else saw it, we'll know. But at the same time, they basically

suppressed this symbol. Interesting. Yeah. So the symbol that we come to associate with encounter is wrong. It's it's not what we think it is. It's not that arrow pointing up. It's not. Yeah. Wow. That's fascinating, man. I mean, and these are the kinds of things that they hope will be so, you know, bury it so deep that no one will come to find this out. But you can never underestimate a UFO researcher. Right. And I'm not going to get too into detail with it because, uh, It's a we're eventually going to cover it on on my podcast, but basically we we have enough we have enough information where we believe we can speculate that this was a government object, a government craft of some kind. And, and we'll be getting into it.

It's, it's, it's interesting. And I, I honestly, when we started to look at this case, when Rory went into it, I didn't think we would find anything. And the details in many cases are so different. And the narrative is so different that we actually got a lot to bite on with it. I can't wait. And I know you were making your way through Ray Stanford's book, too, right? Recently, the Socorro Souser in a Pentagon pantry? Ray is an interesting character.

And at first, yeah, I reached out to your listeners on your Facebook. group because I was trying to track down a decently priced copy of, yeah, Socoral saucer and a Pentagon pantry. Yeah, it's a hard book to come by for a decent price. And then I still don't have it either. Yeah, one of your listeners actually gave me his email. At first they gave me an old email that didn't work, but they gave me this new email and I, and I contacted him. And he's, and here's the thing, Ray knows how much his book is worth. He is on top of it. Yeah, so I can officially say that this is the most amount of money I've ever paid for a UFO book, which was about $60.

But the cool thing is, is that one, it's autographed to me now. So, you know, that's amazing. Oh, totally. Yeah, it comes with this bookmark that has a correction in it. Whoa. That's pretty cool. Yeah, it's really cool. but yeah, Ray was one of the, he was an independent researcher on the ground with it.

And if you look at the book jacket, he actually had files taken from him by the government. So, you know, that's an interesting angle. We also have Kevin Randall's book here, too, that just came out, I believe, in 2017, about the Socorro case. And like, his angle, which was a different angle, he actually was. went through, I believe, certain government officials for that book. So it's going to be interesting to tackle it from all sides. But it's just such a fascinating case that I think people don't know as much as they think about it.

Yeah. Yeah, it seems to be one of those kind of like, you know, I hate comparing things to Roswell. But it's true. Like, the minute you think you have an answer, something flips it on its head and changes. everything. And that's kind of what I've experienced in the past few months of my life is I thought I kind of knew what happened in Roswell. And now the further I'm digging in and the more stories I'm hearing and literally being boots on the ground in Roswell talking to locals, my entire theory on Roswell has been thrown out the window. So yeah, it's fascinating, man. And I'm glad to hear that

they're still developing stories when it comes to Sicoro. because it is. It's one of those pivotal cases that we can turn to and be like, this is a credible witness. No one can ever like denounce that. And it's amazing that you guys are finding new stuff. So God, I can't wait to hear that. Absolutely, man. And I can't stress enough to the people that are looking into this. Details matter. And when details are represented, it can totally throw off a case. And it's done so repeatedly. Like, look at how it's been, how things have been portrayed in Kelly Hopkinsville with the Kelly Hopkinsville cobblins. You know, they were labeled, and they're still known in many circles as the Kelly Little Green men, even though they weren't green.

They were wearing, they were metallic, they were metallic suits or something. because, you know, every time that this family shot at them, they would kind of hear this metallic ping here and there. So the details matter. And one of the most fascinating details of that case that gets passed up every single time is that when the first being approached the house, its hands were up, like it was surrendering. Oh, shit. Yeah.

So it clearly didn't want this firefight that seemed to ensue. No, it didn't. It definitely didn't seem like it wanted anything to do with that. So again, yeah, details matter. And when details are misrepresented, it's just it throws off an entire case and it and it can change the narrative quickly. Absolutely. I mean, if you even have like you're off by a day on a UFO investigation, that changes everything. Like it is. It's the devil is in the detail. You know? Yeah, absolutely, man. Absolutely. Okay, so we have your last one, which again is one of my favorites as well, Secorro being investigated by Mr. J. Ellen Heinek.

So I'm going to bring it up to recent times. We have the Project Blue Book television series on the History Channel. Very divisive show right now in the UFO community. So I want to get your thoughts, man. You know, I think the last time we spoke, it was just being, announce that the show is starting, but now we're four episodes in. And what do you think? What are your thoughts on Project Blue Book, the television series? It's been so great to see some of these cases come to life. But even, even though, like, some of the details are,

kind of altered here and there, but at the core of it, are these real stories. When you're talking Flatwoods, okay, for instance, a lot of lot of that stuff happened like the town yeah they were kind of on edge about things they didn't go to like it didn't become this like Frankenstein trope at forks and yeah yeah but the town was definitely you know uneasy about this they didn't want that attention but uh you know it's it's it's kind of like for entertainment value of course they're going to blow it out of proportion um the the lubbick's light Lubbock Light's case is another fascinating one that I think they did a really good job. Did it really mess with people's cars?

No, it didn't. It wasn't, it was another six years before cars being affected by UFOs, you know, started to happen. But you know what? There was a case from Texas, you know, that did happen. So, you know, it's cool to see that. It's cool to see the Lubbock lights, you know, portrayed on a show. It's cool to see the Child's Witted account portrayed on a show, even in this larger context of Operation Paperclip.

Right. Yeah, and like I was saying to you earlier, it's like there is more truth to it than I think people realize. Now, when people talk about Child's Witted, what they may not realize, is that in Europe from 1946 to 1948, you know, it was kind of off and on. What they had sightings of were these things called ghost rockets. And for a long time, people thought this was the Russians in Germany launching these V1 or V2 rockets. And you kind of have that in the United States with Operation Paperclip. And there's Werner von Braun, you know, the face of this entire thing and you know uh it's it's it's it's cool to see how what they're playing up is

at first what it seems like well we want to you know cover this up not because there's nefarious stuff going on but we you know we want to we want to keep the public calm that's that's number one priority and there's still kind of that but now you're getting glimpses of uh you know deep inside government stuff, which is, which is fun. You know, it's fun. You know, from an X-Files kind of like standpoint, but like I'm enjoying the show so far, Aidan Gillen is knocking it out of the park. Michael Malarkey knocking it out of the park.

Even though the woman playing Mimi Heineck, I love that we're getting to see this other side of Heinex life, you know, his personal life and how this job affected his relationship. I mean, I was listening to an interview recently with the actress playing Mimi, and she said, like, could you imagine how heartbreaking it is that you have to, like, go into your husband's office and peer into his diaries about what's going on in his life because it's so top secret. It's just, I can't imagine having to do that. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, and I think another thing that I don't think people are talking about, as much as how well it's playing up this paranoia angle in the 50s, you know,

with the Cold War and everything. It's doing a really great job with that. And at times I feel like the show is a little busy with what it's doing. At times it seems like it has a little too much going on. Maybe with like the Russian spy angle, yeah, it's kind of, it just seems kind of like a little shoehorned in there. But, you know, it's, it'll be interesting. to see how that develops.

You know, it'll be interesting to see, you know, what else is covered, where it's going, because I don't think it's totally, you don't totally, you know, notice at this point, where is it going? Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, that's a nice thing about it. But I can see where, like, the Heinek officiados get upset, but I think what people need to understand, too, is that two of Heinex children consulted on this show. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, they have the blessing of the family, so that's enough for me. But I agree with you, and I agree with the officiantauters, like, no, this is not historically accurate by any stretch of the imagination. And we know History Channel isn't known for always being historically accurate.

I mean, we have, if we want to run through briefly, like, the History Channel's kind of relationship with these strange, These programs about weird topics. Yeah. It starts with History's Mysteries, which was a great show. It was kind of like the history channels take almost on in search of. It was really fun, you know, a really fun show. And then you get into Monster Quest, which is, you know, cryptids all the time. And then you get into the Nostradamus effect, which was just straight up garbage.

I'm sorry, but there's no other way to go around it. they played up the paranoia of 2012, you know, being the end of the world. Yeah. So be it. And then the blockbuster ancient aliens, of course. Ah, the mother load. Oh, yeah. Oh, and we can't forget about UFO hunters even before that.

That's right. That was on history. I forgot about that. Yeah. Still one of my favorite shows. I'm not going to lie. It is. And you know what's really cool is that at one point, they actually talked

Kalani Zamora on that show. Yes, you're right. Yep. And now we have Project Blue Book, which none of us ever saw coming and never thought we'd see the day when, you know, not only was Project Blue Book going to be covered in, like, TV serial format, but to see Jay Allen Heineck, who's now like this super cool hero on television. It's just, that's enough for me, man. Yeah, and he kind of is a little bit of an action hero, you know, just slightly.

Not too much. But, I mean, like, in the first episode, the man survives the plane crash. Yeah, what? Yeah, that was a little much for me. But, again, like, this is where the show is taking liberties. And what I really like is they're being very respectful to the cases after the episodes in. In terms of, like, having people like Richard Dolan or Jacques Valet come on and tell the actual case that it's based on. So I think that was responsible of them.

and I look forward to those every week. And then you get to compare and contrast what you saw in the show and the sort of fictional arc they're creating and what actually happened. I think it's pretty cool. Yeah. And I mean, it's kind of a way to bring a whole new audience to these UFO cases, you know, sell some more books, damn it. You know, why the hell not? Exactly. Exactly.

Well, Rob, this has been amazing, my man. I always love having you come on for these because I know we don't really have to plan months in advance for what we're going to talk about. I know you're always good for this and tipping back a drink. So what can we expect next from you over at the Our Strange Skies podcast? So right now, we've basically got two episodes in the works. One of them, because I just randomly tweeted out one day, I was like, you know, this is all the weird. stuff that has happened to me in my life. All these weird experiences and people are,

are you going to do an episode about that? You're going to do an episode about that? You had to have expected that, man. Come on. I really didn't expect it to get as much attention as it did. But I'm like, all right, sure. So we've got a episode about my personal stories. And I initially started a series about the Gulf Breeze incidents with my

friends, Sam and Jason of the Not Alone podcast. And it's been a while. We need to go back and finish it. So that's what we're going to do. We're going to finish Ed Walters' crazy story and his crazy encounters with these aliens and all just the weird stuff that was happening in Gulf Breeze. And then after that, we're going to be taking the year off, the rest of the year off. And we're going to get our bearings back. And, you know, there's change. that are going to be coming. We're going to be telling more stories. We're going to be exploring it in a different format and trying different things. So, you know, I'm optimistic for what Our Strange Skies is going to be in the future. So really look for us in 2020. We're going to be bringing it. We will eagerly be awaiting that, my man. I can't wait to see what you guys come up with over there. So where can we find the Our Strange Skies podcast? If you want to listen to the Our Strange Skies podcast, we are available on every single podcast platform.

Just search for Our Strange Skies. And if you want to connect with me, I've got a Twitter account, we've got a Facebook group, we've got an Instagram account, search for Our Strange Skies. Our Email.com. And, you know, send us, contact us. We will talk, always. And we will talk again. my friend and do these much more often because these are my favorite episodes of the show. So once again, I have to thank you for pulling up a bar stool next to me for UFO Happy Hour,

volume two, and I cannot wait for the next one, my friend. You too, man. Thanks again for having me on. Extraterrestrial.