Somewhere in the Skies - UFO Witness with Ben Hansen

Episode Date: February 1, 2021

On episode 198 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, we are joined by former FBI agent and UFO investigator, Ben Hansen. In cooperation with former Project Blue Book investigator Jennie Zeidman, Hansen reopens some of the case files that have been hidden from the public for decades. With unprecedented access to more than 10,000 of Dr. J. Allen Hynek’s case files, Hansen believes the answers to UFOs in America are hidden in the cases of the past.Together with past guest and Hynek biographer, Mark O'Connell, the two uncover the secrets of the past to shed new light on some of today’s most mysterious UFO encounters. Hansen gives us the inside scoop on the investigations, his thoughts on alien abductions, and so much more. This episode is dedicated to the memory of Jennie Zeidman (1932-2020) Watch the Coyne Helicopter UFO Case File by CLICKING HERE Watch UFO Witness at: www.discoveryplus.com Patreon: www.patreon.com/somewhereskies Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com YouTube Channel: CLICK HERE Official Store: CLICK HERE Order Ryan's Book by CLICKING HERE Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Watch Mysteries Decoded for free at www.CWseed.com Episode edited by Jane Palomera Moore Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES is part of the eOne podcast network. To learn more, CLICK HERE Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. Welcome everyone to Somewhere in the Skies. And today, for the very first time, I can't believe I'm actually saying that, the first time in Summer in the Sky's history, we have with us former federal agent and paranormal investigator, UFO researcher, and everything in between Ben Hansen. We're going to be talking all about his new show, UFO witness, on Discovery Plus. So without further ado, Ben, thank you.

so much for joining me on Summer in the Skies. Yeah, thank you. Thanks, Brian. It's good to see you again. Been a crazy year, hasn't it? We're still here. We're still alive and there's a lot of stuff to talk about with UFOs. I know, man. And before we do that, I'm going to pull up a photo. I think this is the last time you and I actually saw each other. Give me one sec here. Okay. Pull this up for your thoughts. Boom. What's going on there, man? Do you remember this night? Because I honestly don't. I think I see you in the very background in a face of shock. And maybe I had made a comment to James Fox and he got upset about it.

And so he did a left hook haymaker there, really slow motion. And I was too slow. And I caught it right face. Hey, you took it in stride, man. Turning the cheek. Isn't that what they say? I thought that would be a fun way. to start things off. Let me...

Yeah, well, you got to move the job because otherwise, that's where your face gets broken. So if you know you get hit, you know, just make your neck loose and go. I love... See, I knew I was going to learn something today other than stuff about UFOs. So this is a win already, brother. Well, let's... For some of my listeners or viewers who may not be too familiar with their work, I don't know how they could in at this point. But tell us a little, if you don't mind, mind, maybe about your time with the FBI and what got you from there to where you are today, hunting everything from ghosts and cryptids and UFOs? Yeah, can you maybe give us kind of the origin

story of how this is- Well, I was born in an early age. I was kidding. My interest really began when I was probably like eight years old, you know, because a lot of people, as you know, sometimes, and I'm not, I'm not, you know, getting disparaging any other TV hosts, no one in particular, but sometimes TV shows are cast because they find that they had hosting qualities, and then they want to be on TV, and they're like, oh, and by the way, are you interested in UFOs, right? And for me, it was reverse. I never saw that I would be doing anything in TV.

I was kind of a geek when I was, gosh, I was five years old when I saw the most. movie ET, right? And that was one subject that just really fascinated me. And my dad would bring me books and some of them are kind of like behind me here, like stuff that was like beyond my comprehension level. And I would read these books about UFOs and just had this kind of interest that I put away as I got a little bit older. But then I was in high school, the TV show X-Files, you know, came out. It was a big popular thing. It sounds cliche. But I knew there wasn't in X-Files and I knew there wasn't anything official like that, but I knew about Project Blue Book. And I was like, how cool would that be? And that honestly, it gave me a little more interest

in working in the public sector and doing investigations. So when I was in college, my degree was in sociology and criminology. And straight out of college, I went to work investigating child sex crimes and severe physical abuse stuff. And so it was like, I'm working for the state. I was okay with it. I know a lot of people like, ew, you know, like I go to a party. What do you do? Like, do you really want to know?

And like, I did that for several years before I went to work for the bureau. And not, not, you know, like putting, I guess, to seriously in a marketing package, all right. the first show I did was fact or faked, you know, and I fell into that world, but they wanted to promote everything with the X-Files theme and all that. And it's, it's cool, but I don't want to get people the impression that I was doing anything like that at the Bureau, right? I was working national security, criminal cases as well. I wasn't there all that long because things just weren't what I expected.

And that's another thing I get from people is like, well, he knew too much. too close to the truth or, you know, or he's a disinformation agent. I'm like, I wish. I wish because like paychecks. Right. So. Right. I'm at any rate.

A few levels, yeah. I think, I guess in a way, as I always get asked to, well, what do you think it did to prepare you for what you're doing now? I was like, I was always doing this. This is the TV show, my latest, pretty much like a culmination of what. whatever I was doing the same thing as a kid, but now I'm an adult. And what's weird is that there's so many things I believe and have an open mind now in that aspect than I did as a kid, right?

When it comes to ghost hunting, I didn't believe in ghosts. They were just made up stories when I was a kid. UFOs, I had an open mind seeing so much now, you know. And so now I just, as an adult, get to go and explore these icons. iconic places I used to see when I was a kid. I used to read about, you know? And like you go conferences, you probably never believed that you'd be writing book, that you would be, you know, like one of the authorities that people come to.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a pretty interesting journey, I think, when you get involved in these things. Because, like you said, like, I never thought I would be any sort of authority figure. I don't have that in my blood or my DNA. But, hey, once you put the work in, in the effort and people start paying attention to you, it's an honor that anyone would read something that I would write or watch a show that you're investigating on. It's awesome. And I think that's a responsibility that we really have to pay attention to and do the work and make it as credible as we can.

That's exactly it. I mean, when you say to the work, because a lot of people like, well, I don't have. the background you do and everything. And I was just thinking about that today. I'm like, anybody who wants to put in the effort to learn how to do a proper, you don't have to have a background in law enforcement. You don't have to have a degree in this or that. Some of the best researchers never had any of that. They just had a passion, right? And so the thing with UFology, though, as opposed to what I found in, let's say, ghost hunting. Okay, ghost hunting, the paranormal stuff like that, to me, there's a lot.

of maybe theories and experiments and stuff people are using equipment for, but there's not a body of knowledge of famous, let's say, hauntings or things that the government has done to cover up ghosts. It's just not, it's not the same. So as you know, when you get into UFOology, you can't really fake your way through it. You could be passionate about it, but your base cannot be like, oh, I know pop culture. I know the movies about UFOs and men in black. No, it's like a history. They actually should have, and I think I did take a class in college. It was called, Does E.T. exists. It was pretty cool class. But they should have a full class, maybe even a minor degree that you could get in UFology, be everything there is to know. You really have to get into

history to know where we've been, what is known, what agencies are doing what, and why not? I mean, if it's, you know, important enough for the government to have official agencies and investigations, why had a degree from a university that you could get about the history of it? Exactly, man. And I mean, I have to give credit there are professors out there kind of push in for those kind of courses, whether through a historical lens or religion or government or like you said, you can attach this topic of UFOs to pretty much anything, which is what I've always found fascinating, pop culture,

sociology, psychology, religion. I love it. And you guys kind of tackle all of these in your new show. So I guess we, you know, elephant in the room, you got a new show out after fact or fake, ghosts of Morgan Town. Now we have UFO witness on Discovery Plus. So give us the, maybe the rundown of how the show came to be. And this really special, unique person that you were able to work with on the show that actually actually worked with Project Blue Book. Yeah, if you don't mind, give us the rundown.

Okay, sure. So, Ghost of Morgan City, you know, we filmed a full season of that. And I guess I can't get too much into what the development and where that is right now. But because a lot of, because of what COVID was going through and what was happening, or stalling of all filming, possibility. So I guess I can say this much. There's a possibility that show can come back too. but in the interim, the UFO world has just exploded. And as you know, in the last couple of years, there have been so much media attention. But in my mind, there wasn't, look, I watch about half an hour of TV a month.

I don't even have cable. I do enjoy the shows, but I'm very particular about what I watch. So I know that if I like something I'm on, that it came out well, to me that's a pretty good endorsement. If Ben Hanson likes it, even his own show, you know, then okay, then I would watch it. Yeah. And what happened was this company comes along,

and I always get calls, people wanting ideas of what to do, what to film. And I was already talking with a knack, and this thing was kind of formulating already a really great company called Anomily, who makes just, they do a lot of Shark Week shows. and they know how to do recreations and bring kind of that cinematic aft into it. And so in talking with channel executives and stuff, they said, hey, you know, have you asked Ben if he's interested in kind of what you guys are working on?

And it just sort of mesh together. Now, Mark O'Connell, who's also a co-executive producing that, had the access. Mark's kind of new to the, I guess, the UFO circuit that you and I have been for a while. a while. He kind of came into it because he's been doing this a long time, but he hadn't been really well known of what access he had until he wrote a biography about Dr. Heineck. So he writes a biography and was able to, about the same time the movie Blue Book was out, he was also talking to the family members, you know, to Paul Heineck. He was getting in with anybody who knew Heineck to really get to know this man.

He writes the book, and in the process of doing that, he gains access to Kufos, the center of UFO studies, where the archives, and for the audience who probably know this, the organization was started by Heinek after he left Project Blue Book. So, and then it morphs off and branches into Mufon and other, other organizations pop up. So anyways, Jenny Ziedman was, Dr. Heinek's personal assistant. She was a college student. I believe it was, I don't know if you

talked to many places, but Ohio State is where I believe it was. And she's a student in his class. And they did kind of a field trip, you know, like, and went outside and they saw some siding of a weird object. Now the whole class is freaking out. Heinek himself doesn't know what he's seeing. And she goes back and does some research

and comes back. says, I know what we saw the other night. It was da, da, da, da, da. I don't remember if she found that it was a weather balloon or what it was, but he was so impressed with her diligence that he said, would you like to kind of intern for me? Would you like to be my assistant? So she then actually gets hired by the Air Force, okay, working with Heinek as his assistant and eventually moves up into field investigating and actually doing a lot of the interviews. and she was, gosh, how old was she? She was 80-something.

She was way up there when I met her. And it was just like sitting down in a big, coming chair, you know, and saying, Grandma, you know, tell me about what you knew. And she was very opinionated. She felt very determined about a lot of things that Dr. Heineck of, she was, you know, right there next to him and knew what his thoughts were. knew what he believed, what he was frustrated with, knew his opinions on cases.

I don't know if I'm getting too far into the weeds here, but something that is, it's addressed a little bit in the series. She later went to work for the government, a contractor named Battelle, right? And if your people know, Mattel. Yeah, very familiar. Yep. the engineering of a lot of the Roswell Debris, technology division at Wright Patterson.

They're like this. And so not giving away too much. One part of the series was we learned from Jenny some of these, the people who were assigning the probable cases, the most unexplained cases, she believes did not come

from the Air Force directly. One or two guys would show up in a car, deliver a manila envelope and she she did a search on their license plate to find out who these people were because heinick was like they're not air force they're dressed in in like civilian clothes okay so how is a government handling much in the same way i guess you could say bigelow was handling the money for um the uh the 22 million dollars that was invested right I'm not a.

And so he's a government contractor, but he's assigning these cases because for one thing, there's no FOIA requests that you can do. Like, they don't have the same rules. Right. Right. If you put a FOIA request on a government contractor, they're not under the same obligation to turn over their files. Right.

And so if you do an investigation that's actually headed underneath a contractor, it gets lost. Nobody has to come out. about it, right? And so what's really cool with O'Connell, we got to pick the brain of Jenny for the time she was with us before she passed

away. We get access to the Kufo's files. We get personal notes, personal correspondence between Ineck and everything he was doing before and after Blue Book. And we get to revisit and retrace his steps for some of these iconic

cases. Compare them to modern day things. So you'll each episode we take an old case. We look at what Johnny did and then we come forward and we look for patterns to see is it something new? Is it different?

What can we learn from it? Yeah. I love that aspect of the show. I just like retracing his steps, trying to get into the mind of Heinek and like what he was thinking at the time. And then you as a modern day investigator who has the technology now to go out and do your own

you know, re-examination. I mean, that's a resource that only something like a television show can really provide. So that's why when I always tell people, like, you may think these TV shows are entertainment, but they have resources that us UFO researchers do not have and money to do it. So I'm all for any infotainment, as we call it, show coming out, where it will get the topic out there. And, well, let's kind of, without going in too in depth with every episode, Ben, because obviously we want people to watch your journey. The first episode, we have to talk about this one.

You mentioned what's going on in the world today with UFOs. We've got the Pentagon has a UFO task force. Within 180 days, they're supposed to make their findings public, which is like all of this is just blowing my mind. I never thought we would see this in our lifetime. And you were able to interview one of the gentlemen that was on the Nimitz carrier. And you found some really interesting connections between that and a case that Blue Book investigated, which was the coin helicopter case.

So would you mind maybe running us a little through what these two cases might have had in common to give us an example of what the show, your show truly stands for? Yeah, thank you. So you're right. The Nimitz case was probably, gosh, you could dare say, if you looked at it globally, it's almost more prolific than Ros in the amount of eyes that got on the case because it's very visual. We've got these videos of, you know, the TikTok-shaped UFO and then later on the East Coast, you know, they have the thing that the video looks like it's on its side

and it's like spinning. And number one, it's because the government finally admitted they had been chasing these things. They had an official program to investigate them and they don't know what they are. So that's it. You know, and so the media is crazy about it finally.

And one thing, though, is that the shape of, this, they call it a Tic Tac. It's interesting that there are actually more sightings now, far more sightings of triangles of lights and orbs and non-disc-shaped objects. And so we kind of wanted to know, well, how far back do we go to where we could find a lot of references to a Tick-Tac-looking cylindrical shape? And military engines. And the coin. Copter case is a great example because that was 1970, I want to say it was 75.

These guys are pilots, Army guy going to get a flight medical review and they're on the way back they take turns flying the helicopter because they need the hours, right? So the guy flying the helicopter on the way back, they take an altitude, which is unusual for them. It was like, I think they're about 3,000 feet.

Normally helicopters are cruising out like maybe 500, maybe a little bit more. But they get way up there. And as they're flying, their right side, starboard, I guess we're not a boat. So, but the right side,

you see this red light, and it starts approaching them, and they start kind of taking notice that it's coming really fast, and it starts zooming, zooming, zooming super fast towards them. So much, though, that Captain Coyer, grabs the controls, the collective, and grabs a helicopter and says, okay, it's mine because he's got the most time in this aircraft and pushes it down in a dive.

So they think they're going to miss collision. And I remember seeing the altitude indicator is from the 3,000 or they're at, they get down to 1,700 feet. this thing comes up over the top of them and about 20 seconds, maybe even less, stops and hovers above them. It's tick-tac shaped. It has a light front of it that shines down on them

and fills the canopy of the helicopter. And before you know it, they disappear. That takes off. They look at their altimeter and up to 3,500 feet. So they've gained 1,800 feet. Something like that. I had them trying to figure it out. Gains that much altitude in that 10 to 20 seconds.

So for us and people who've seen my previous shows like Factor Faked, one of the cool was we tried replicating that, the modern day helicopter, which of course, I believe it was a Huey that they were in. It's more powerful. But in talking to our expert pilot, he's like, here's the differences. It's not going to be anywhere. Look, it's going to be just as fast as they were flying.

The horsepower and everything else climb a little bit more in the military helicopter. But it was a good proof of concept because what we found was there's absolutely no way. Even a meteorological condition, like a wind shear, not make the helicopter rise that quickly that amount of time. So there had to be some external force at play. So that's kind of how the show goes, is that we look for natural explanations, maybe we try to recreate something. But knowing that these similar objects were seen in the 70s and now again, and they seem to be, I wouldn't say it was aggressive, hurt them.

But think about it. We're deploying to scramble to fly out. after these things, there are rumors that when this has happened before like 1952, the red scare over the Capitol where these things showed up, you know, in swarms over two weekends in July, and the jets would come and they'd scramble away. There are rumors that we lost two jets on one of those weekends that the pilots died. Okay, we're trying to confirm that, but think about it. Like, this is a national security concern.

In our airspace, we don't know who they are. And I think that's one reason that both of these cases are really important. Absolutely. And I mean, we had the former head of the Secret Pentagon UFO program, Luis Alizando, on two weeks ago now. And he said the same thing. He's like, look, I come from a world of the Department of Defense and intelligence. Like, if we don't know what it is, these UFOs, it's going to be a potential threat.

So, you know, while a lot of people out there may think, you know, their space brothers and they're here to save us, and it's all love and light, we don't know that. And that could be only one possible whatever, intelligence, race source of what that UFO was. The ones over here may not be here for the same reason. So, yeah, man, I thought that was a really good example of taking the case from then and now and finding connections. And it's cool. And another episode, which Discovery Plus was so kind to send me, screeners of a bunch of them, to be honest. I was surprised they let me see so far ahead. So I have to

thank Discovery Plus for that. But I believe this one aired already. So I think we could talk about it. The one with your grandfather. This like blew me away, man. And I don't think I've ever watched a scripted paran, or unscripted paranormal or UFO show where I almost cried. And this was the one that did it. So would you mind kind of running us through, um, going to meet your dad and talking about your grandpa and his possible connection to all of this in an episode called Alien High Tech. Yeah. Can you tease us a little bit about what that's all about?

Yeah, I went to the family. It was really touching because so when the series, we decided it was greenlit. I got to go to the producers. We talked about some of the different cases we wanted to cover, you know, when we're going to do it and, you know, talk about some amazing stories that haven't been told yet. They also wanted a personal connection. And this one's always been something that I've been trying to work on my own was that my grandfather worked for the Air Force.

He was in World War II with the Marines and then went to the Air Force civilian. And he was a logistical engineer. So his job, well, my pictures of him are over here. But anyways, his job was primarily to take logistical projects and figure out, okay, we need to make the space for the project. We need to inventory it. He helped them implement the larger computer system the Air Force had at the time. And he worked underground. He worked on maintaining hangar systems.

And at some point, 1965, my dad was 15 years old. comes to my dad and says, son, I've been asked to join a special group. And the government might call me at any time. And if they do, I have to get up and I have to leave town and I can't tell you sometimes or even where I'm going. I don't know when I'll be back.

And my dad's like, are you talking about like a Cold War era nuclear threat sort of thing? And he goes, well, something like that. Right. And so my dad remembers. in 65 was the first time he was called. He had to pack his bags. And one thing that the show, I think that the narrator made a little error there.

They said they moved my family to Utah. He was always in Utah. What it was is he would leave from there on what they call TDIs, temporary duty assignment, to Wright Patterson. And Wright Patterson, of course, is head of Project Blue Book, still going on in 60s. It was also, and it is the home of the four, the technology division.

So everything from Roswell to any back engineer of craft, we don't know how it works, is taken there. And my grandpa would be gone. Sometimes for a couple of weeks, he couldn't talk to my dad. He couldn't answer the phone at times. So in the series, without getting too much into it, but you'll see this part where the producers love the idea. I wanted to do it to go talk to my own data.

about my grandpa and see what we could find out. And so my dad tells the story of how that progression happened and what we learned and actually matching up some dates of when my grandpa left to write Patterson. And I'm like blown away because we were able to match up the Dexter, Michigan case, you know, Kexburg, like specific weekends where some major things happen. And my grandpa just happens to leave it's an emergency. and then can't say when he's coming back, right? And so the thing that I think you're talking about had gave me chills too,

because if you watch, I'm almost, and I don't cry a lot at all, but like I'm like kind of getting a little water like holding back because my dad was retelling the deathbed, you know, like when my grandpa was there and what he finally tells him in the end, you know. And so to me, just having the opportunity to do this, this episode was really awesome because we got my doubt on tape. We made some discoveries I had no idea about. And to be able to do that just for a family archive, you know, was really cool.

So we're still researching it. I'm still trying to kind of dig in there to see if grandpa hit any secrets anywhere. What's up, guys, Ryan Sprag here. And I'm just dropping in to remind you about our Patreon campaign. Somewhere in the Skies is always free to consume. but it's not free to create. So if you want to help the show on a monthly basis, we have tons of rewards for you in return,

including shoutouts on the show and website, bonus content and episodes, and free merge. Want to be my guest or pick a topic for the show? You can do that too. So if you'd like to learn more and to help support the show, visit patreon.com slash somewhere skies. Thank you and keep looking up.

Yeah, you're so right, man. I think there's another show out where they found the personal journals of Jesse Marcel during the Roswell incident. So look, these cases aren't case closed. Even if they were part of Project Blue Book and they were closed, they're still unknown of what a lot of these actually were. So who knows what your grandfather worked on? It was a really cool human touch to the show. And I loved it. You got to go to Dougway in that episode, too. But like I said, we could we could go episode by episode, but I've got some more important questions to ask you, man, in terms of, you know,

kind of the journey of the show. There is an episode dealing with abductions. I don't know if it's aired yet, but what do you make of this whole side of it? You know, we're not just talking lights in the sky or even, even a craft of some sort. We're going next level. We're talking people getting kidnapped by aliens. So when you're an investigator going into something like that, And knowing that Project Blue Book actually looked into these cases as well, what do you make of it, the whole abduction phenomenon? Well, it's kind of the next logical step. But I find that like with most things, there's a continuum of I'm not, I don't like the term skeptic and believer because people want to label you. And if they say favor, well, then what does that mean?

I believe everything I hear. No. I need to be skeptical. And so when it comes to abductions, I'll tell you the one case that really changed my mind because I was in that camp of like, look, okay, I would give it a 95% chance we've been visited because of all the sightings I've had my own, you know, a couple of them that blew me away. So I would say I'd give it a 95% chance, but you have to have your mind open to that possibility

that they're not just flying around, but they're actually interacting with us in a much more direct way. And the case that changed my mind on that was Travis Walton, you know, and fire in the sky. And years ago, I had a mutual friend who got me in touch with him. I didn't know he's still a lot. Like most of us, I saw the movie that freaked me out. And I was like, whoa, how much is this true? And it's the case of 1975 and, you know, really quick. I don't know.

It was like Arizona, seven loggers. They're out, you know, finishing up the day of work. And they come across to object. it's hovering in the forest. And Travis approaches it. It's struck, you know, by, they said it was kind of a bolt, something as he gets close to it. And then they leave him. And they come back and he's gone and he's gone for like five days.

So when I met Travis and saw kind of what a humble and believable person he was. And then you put into that all of the polygraphs that the. crew had taken, all of the law enforcement involvement, the investigations, you're talking about a very, very powerful case, probably the most well-documented abduction case. And I believed that the crew believed what they saw, and I believe that Travis is telling the truth. So if I believe that, I had to be open to the other possibilities that others have had abductions. The problem is you can't lose your sense of objectivity. You have to live. You have to look at it in the probability of say there's a higher percentage of people with mental health

problems in this field there's also people who don't have any mental health problems but have very lucid dreams experiences that they've they've come to make them believe they've they've had an experience and then there's a possibility this is really happening to them right and so i'm kind of in this murky middle where i'm like trying to weigh the evidence trying to to get to know the person and then trying to make a decision whether I believe, first of all, no one in this I met, nobody really made it up. I think everyone was telling the truth of what they believed. But then we have to get into, is there another explanation?

Is this something that was like a lucid dream or sleep paralysis or something that was so real to them or did it physically really happen? And that's where we let the audience decide because honestly, I don't know. I really, I have an open mind, but I don't know. Some of these things are so strange. But if it's true, it's pretty crazy what's been going on. Yeah, man. I agree with you on so many levels when it comes to this abduction phenomenon.

I mean, you know me. I'm all about the people who have experiences. So I've interviewed hundreds of people claiming alien abductions. And I come away feeling the same way. you know, maybe they're fantasy prone. Maybe it was a hypnagogic hallucination, a lucid dream. Anything to kind of push the idea of a extraterrestrial intelligence, experimenting on people is what I went for.

But then you come away with those few cases where you're like, huh, there is nothing I can say to try to explain this. And the people, too. I mean, we're talking, people claiming these things are your barista. They're your law enforcement. You know, they're your, your teacher. These are every people, credible, same people saying that this happened. So that really says a lot.

I get a sense of what Dr. Heineck felt like the Pascagoua, Mississippi case. Right? And to me, it's not so crazy. There's like, they're like robot like that come out of the craft and grab these two guys by the arms. Right. But this is an example of where I felt the same way. He personally went down there, interviewed the men, talked to the police office. They did a trick on them.

And when they interviewed them, they left the tape recorder going and they left the room to see if they would talk and be like, oh, gosh, the police aren't believing us. Or, you know, isn't this funny? How are we going to keep this up? So they didn't know they're being recorded. And they were absolutely scared. They were crying. Petrified, yeah. Petrified, right?

So Heineck comes away from that case also firmly believing. He never says, I know that, you know, extra trestrels abducted these men because he's a very objective scientist. But he says, I believe they're telling the truth. I believe they believe they have the decisions. So then what is it? You know, and that's why I think I identify a lot with Dr. Heineck because I want to stay grounded. times all we have are the stories, maybe some physical evidence, but we shouldn't discount of witness testimony.

Witness testimony can put people in prison in the death sentence. Witness testimony, you know, like we have to make judgments about people if they're telling the truth or not. And it's been diminished over time because we expect technology to do it all for us now. Right. But I kind of, that's kind of the crux of the. show, really. It's UFO witness. Yeah, it's all about the witnesses. I agree with you, brother. Um, well, moving on to some listener questions, if you don't mind sticking around for a

couple of these. Cool. Cool. Um, yeah, we got some excited people out there, man, and they've been following your work for a while. So the first question, uh, we're going back to fact or fake days. Um, for Cam on Facebook, it remains his favorite paranormal show. Is there any chance of a revival? And do you keep in touch with anyone from the original investigations? I do, most of them. Most of them, I talked to Austin the other day. He's having a baby. Devin has got a couple kids now.

He's teaching into college. He's a pedic. Let's see, Jail has got a podcast. She's doing some radio stuff. I don't know exactly what Linish is up to or Chilon. Bill, I talked to. all the time and and Bill's really wanting to do something. So it's it's kind of like if people are watching now, Discovery Plus, Discovery actually

bought the rights to show the archives. And so Factor Fakes is the thing on like Wednesdays or it's on streaming now probably. I don't even know. You know, or this case was already ambitious adventures and I'm like, well, yes, but you know ours is filmed in 2010. We did it a long time ago. So anyways, people want to show. We want it back.

Sci-fi is not doing this type of show anymore. So I don't honestly know who has the rights to the name, except the discovery, re-bought it, and they changed the name a little bit. So as far as rights go, I think they could redo it. And I am going to start talking with the networks, perhaps, to see if they're a chance of a revival of some sort. I don't know that it would have a,

all the same crew because some of them kind of gone on. But you know, not to our own, but the concept was pretty unique. It was something that a lot of tried to replicate and it's flattering. I mean,

but we were a combination of like Mythbusters, you know, and the paranormal, which a lot of these video shows are now just trying to, you know, and I think it's still missing that all meant that we used to out there and put it to the test.

And we love it. I hope to see it back. I really can't say, you know, as to whether it's possible or not. Yeah. Hey, anything's possible. If we've learned anything from 2020. That's right.

But you're getting, you're definitely getting that feel in UFO witness. So I highly suggest any fact or faked fans. Check out UFO witness. Because you're doing it, man. You're going out. You're doing the experiments, boots on the ground. And that's what people want.

And that's what this field needs instead of all these people sitting around Googling stuff and giving their opinion and saying case closed. No, go out there and do the work. Well, okay, Edward on Facebook asks, do you think men in black work for the FBI? Or what are your overall thoughts on the men in black phenomenon? You do touch on this a little bit in UFO witness if I'm remembering correctly. Yeah, what do you think of the MIBs, Ben?

some of the earliest men in black encounters that it dates back at least as far back as Roswell. There were military people that we've actually traced back to not the FBI, but actually the military, who would show when they're from the base, you know, the military base or something, but maybe they would threaten. They would literally, I've talked to witnesses. who said when they were little, they were, I think the person I'm thinking of was,

gosh, she was like maybe seven years old or younger. Terry Mann threatened her that the debris that she had handled, the thing she was told, that if she told anyone, they would take her to the desert and take her away from her family or kill her family. And it's really sad and tragic, but there are cases of that in these unidentified men,

who show up and make threats or give bribes. We see the same thing then happening again in the Heflin case, which was, you know, these photographs happened here in California. And it looks kind of like the classic saucer shape. And he's a construction worker for the thing, Department of Transportation. He was doing some contracts and he films this thing.

Guy shows up, you know, ask borrow the photos and never returns. them and, you know, says he's from some government agency. And so this is not a new thing, but the men in black, I don't know if, if I'm guessing, I would say it's not one specific agency. I think I've heard stories for people from multiple agencies that they said, we have a department or a division or a unit that does that sort of thing. And I think you see in a series, we interview a controversial person who says that he did that for the government, right? I know exactly who you're talking about, yeah.

Yeah, a lot of people don't believe him because we know that he did work for the government, but like when someone comes out and says, let's say, for example, they say I'm a spy, and I'm going to give you some information. You're kind of like, okay, well, are you being with me now? because what spies do is they lie. Right? And so when you're doing national security investigations, that's where you get double agent and who are they really working for.

And it's a real deal. The intelligence community, they do with this all the time. It's a real thing. And so you have to decide now, is this person still being truthful with me? Are they lying? Is there a pro place?

And if I had to put money on it, yeah. If you want to call it men in black, no, they don't come up and erase your mind. But there are agencies who lie, units that lie about working for other agencies. You can do that in law enforcement, believe it or not. You can show up and say that you're, you know, somebody else to get information. And so they can lie.

They can appear to be somebody else. But I would say it happens far less now than it used to. That's just my, based on what I've gathered from interviews and everything, because the bottom line is I don't think we need to do that much. anymore. If they were worried about things getting out, that was the 50s, the 60s, it was a panic. There was a real reason I think why they were worried people would panic of getting this information. We do it to ourselves now.

We do it to ourselves. If I had the best UFO video ever, you know, a UFO like independent stick over the White House and I put it on the 10 o'clock, how many people are still not going to believe that happened? right it's a viral video made up for a movie it's this it's that and at the end of the day you know you're um i just think there's so much disinformation hoaxing so many things out there that it would be diluted it would be lost we wouldn't have to have men and black show up and say don't talk about the thing you saw that's just my opinion yeah yeah i know we're uh we're our

own worst enemies, I think, nowadays. And it's funny, because like you said, you would think with the expansion and evolution of technology would be able to get better evidence and stuff of this. But in reality, it actually works against us. Like you said, we have special effects artists. That's their calling card. Put out a UFO video they made on their computer, gets a million views. Boom, you're going to get hired by Hollywood. So it's hard, man. I totally get it. And especially in today's age of social media too, with, you know, falsities spreading so easily and in everything, too, it's harder. It's actually harder than I think it was before. And I think it's harder for the government to contain their information, too. So I think that's why we're seeing, you know,

the DOD saying, yeah, here, here's those videos of the TikTok and everything. We're officially releasing them when in reality, we knew about those videos. years before they actually They leaked. It's a hope, I guess, I have. If any of the evidence from Roswell exists or anything like that,

like, it's probably very deep vaulted. But if there's a chance that anybody had access to it, these things, it's not like the olden days, right? Yeah. And when people get information,

they leak it or the hackers are so good now. You know, like they can get in there. Then we have like that hack where they start releasing things about off-world officers and what does this mean? Is this a real thing? And so we live in an age of information overload. And that, I think, is our biggest challenge. It's our biggest challenge because when we have bombshells come out, it can get lost.

The significance and impact of that can get lost in all the other things that we're consumed with right now. And the other problem is, who do we trust anymore? Right. There's so much distrust, you know, for our leaders, the government, everything, the media. And it finishes all of that with personal testimony, too. You know, like if you know me and you believe I would not lie to you, that's probably the most powerful thing that could help persuade you. Yeah. You know, because otherwise all this stuff coming together, we're just living in a very interesting time. I think you're right. Yeah. And I think, you know, it's time for citizens to take back the information they get and they learn. So that's why I applaud anyone who's out there in the civilian world still investigating, you know, mom and pops UFO sighting.

Not, not, you know, the radar operator on the Nimitz carrier. Like, the military cases are awesome. And yeah, these are trained observers. So, like, these are the cases that make the most impact. But I'm so happy there's still people out there like you do in your show of going out to Dulce and talking to the locals and getting a feel for what they think they saw instead of what the government thinks they saw or stuff like that. So, no, I think that's what brings your show kind of circles us back to. It's all about the witnesses. So I guess kind of my last question for you, Ben, before we wrap up here, is you've investigated ghosts.

you've investigated cryptids, now UFOs. This seems to be kind of a running theory nowadays of all this stuff somehow being interconnected, some weird string theory between all these things. So as an investigator who's looked at all of them, who's looked at all the evidence, what do you think? Are we dealing with things interconnected

or should we stay, you know, in our lanes when it comes to flying saucers and Bigfoot and the ghosts of Morgan City. Well, maybe the answer is yes and no. I mean, I do think that science is moving in the direction of multiple dimensions. So if the word dimension scares people, think it's sci-fi. Well, to me, I've always, for example, how to believe in life after death, okay?

So if there's spirits that are here and they can sometimes manipulate, manipulate our physical world. Sometimes people see them. But we're occupying the same physical space, but they're not always visible. Then we're talking in reality about another dimension. So I'm okay with that. Now, do UFOs, aliens, do they live in this dimension? You know, the thinkers of their time, which are probably far ahead, you know, Jacques Valet, for example, he was very hesitant to say anything about this until recently because he knows it wasn't popular. I do evidence of nuts and bolts craft things that were built, you know, from those from other worlds. I think we're getting to that point.

I think that's what will end up being the conclusion. However, does that mean that they have to travel light years away to get here? You know, maybe it's both. But this interventional thing with the different phenomena we're seeing with like orbs of light that come and go, is that connected to to orbs that people see in, you know, paranormal hauntings? I try not to find a unified theory just because looking at what I'm studying right now is hard enough. But I think you do have to have an open mind that there are other worlds right around us that we can't see.

So I guess in short, yes, I do think that there is an overall. explanation, but it's not necessarily that the ghosts are aliens. Does that make sense? You know, or that Bigfoot is from another. I have anything that would indicate that yet. Right. But there is something going on and it might help explain things such as why you're not finding a dead Bigfoot. You know, like maybe they don't actually physically live here all the time. And as crazy as that is, there's a maybe a way that they're kind of slipping in and out and we're only briefly getting glows of them or interactions. I feel weird saying that, but I think the evidence that the phenomena is real, things are happening is overwhelming, in my opinion.

No, I think you're right. Kind of piggybacking off of what you said, if you zoom back far enough, everything's connected somehow. But then, you know, it is, it's a challenge. So I think, you know, UFO people do what you do. Ghost people do what you do. And then every now and again, go get a beer and talk about it. And then maybe you'll find some connections.

That's the way I look at it. But before we go, Ben, with UFO witness, now having taken this journey and going on all these investigations, what do you hope viewers will take away from this series? And what did you come out thinking by the end of it? Any big revelations or, yeah, what do you got for us in terms of all that? Well, you know, like aside from it, I think being a rich kind of a history, you call infotainment, I think that it brings everything from pop culture that you would see these very dramatic and scents, you know, of abductions or sightings, don't mean to make them all scary.

I think anything that you see that's that close to you can be, you know, sometimes disturbing. But I think if you take all of that and bring it now into the fact-based stuff of what we know, that's what this series really does. Because a lot of people only know the pop culture and they know what their neighbors said they saw. But they have no idea. This is sort of like a UFO, UFOology 101 for people, right? It takes you into the basics of like if I were to take a course in UFOs, well, okay,

let's talk about Blue Book, let's talk about the government's interest in it. And we have a conversation. So if this does serve a public service

of any sort, first you have to care about the subject. And this show really helps you care about the subject. It helps legitimacy to a lot

of these sightings is backed with official government records. And from that, once we care about it, if it were to a social movement. And I'm not saying like we have a, you know, a million person march on D.C.

But you've got to have enough voices to say, look, okay, guys, we know there's overwhelming evidence and people have seen this and things that happen over the years. We want to know the truth now. And I think that's what we're getting to. I think the media is interested in that. They, we as, you know, TV producers and what we do, we're part of that. We're part of that. We're part of making that awareness so that we can see some change and hopefully time get some answers. Absolutely, man. I think, you know, it is, it's a time unlike any other in the UFO world right now. You got a lot of activists on Twitter who are super passionate about, you know, writing your Congress members or your senators and tell us like what you know about UFOs. And I'm all for that. I'm all for the people out there actually investigating.

I'm all for the people sitting at their computers and researching old cases. Like, there's a place for everyone in all of this. And I think that's what's beautiful about it. It's a topic, whether it's paranormal or UFOs, that unify us instead of divide us. So if we could get more of those in the world right now, I think we could definitely, definitely use that. It's one of the best thing, you hit on a great point maybe to end with is that because of the, you know, political divisions and everything we're saying, you have to remember residents on both sides have had their experiences. Politicians on both sides have come together to ask for this latest thing, you know,

in Congress. It was Reagan and it was Clinton who both made similar statements about imagine if we were visited from someone or something from an external force and how that would unite us. We're all humans. You know, this, this earth. together. It doesn't mean that they have to be our enemies, but it would bring us together, remember what we have in common. And so I think it's one reason the UFO subject is also so hot right now. Yeah. Yep. I think humans desperately want that. And let's not let all of this divide us. Let's come together. So, brother, I got to ask you, before we go, where can we find everything you're up to? And where can we find UFO Witness.

So, yeah, a UFO Witness started premiering on Discover Plus, which is a subscription app. You can get it free, I think, for seven days. So if you wanted to wait until all the episodes are on there and binge watch them and cancel, I didn't tell you that.

But why would you want to cancel? Yeah. Like, so many shows, they have the alien aliens. They bought histories in A&E. archives. There's so many 10,000 plus titles, I

think, on there. So anyways, it's a great service. You can also get it for free, I think, if you're having an account and something in there. So it's a stunt plus app. Your TV, Roku, stick, whatever you get your apps through.

It'll be on there. And we have, let's see, we're on episode four or five just dropped. We got three or four more weeks because there's eight episodes total. And eventually, perhaps the whole series will also air on Travel Channel, but it's a Discovery Plus original. So look forward to it. I hope you guys enjoy it. We've been getting a ton of a really good thing.

So thanks for tuning in. Awesome, brother. Well, hey, again, like, it was so cool to see Jenny Zedman and Mark O'Connell and you on the show. The Passion shows in what you guys did. and I highly suggest everyone go check it out. And I can't believe I'm saying this again. First-time guest, Ben Hansen. Thank you for joining me today on Somewhere in the Skies, my man.

Well, thank you so much for having me and we'll keep in touch. Somewhere in the Skies is produced by Third Kind Productions in association with the Entertainment One podcast network.