Somewhere in the Skies - UFOs 2020: Part 2

Episode Date: August 10, 2020

On episode 173 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, we dive right back in to our discussion with Tim McMillan. He and Ryan navigate their way through the controversial Wilson/Davis documents, the return of the "Alien Autopsy" film, the Bob Lazar story, and then Tim answers listener questions. It's a perfect way to wrap up our UFOs 2020 two-part series with one of the most prominent investigative writers covering UFOs in one of the most exciting and uncertain times in UFO history. Follow Tim McMillan @LtTimMcMillan Disaster Relief for Beirut Explosion Victims. Donate now through Impact Lebanon by CLICKING HERE Support the podcast with a one-time contribution. There's no commitment and you can tip as little or as much as you'd like when you like: https://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies The updated and expanded edition of Somewhere in the Skies is now available! Order now in paperback or E-book. To purchase, and to leave a rating and review, CLICK HERE Website: www.somewhereintheskies.com Patreon: www.patreon.com/somewhereskies YouTube Channel: CLICK HERE Official Store: CLICK HERE Twitter: @SomewhereSkies Instagram: @SomewhereSkiesPod Watch Mysteries Decoded for free at www.CWseed.com Episode edited by Jane Palomera Moore Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES is part of the eOne podcast network. To learn more, CLICK HERE Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

UFOs seem to be invading both our skies and our news outlets like never before. And more people are starting to look up and are wondering who or what might be out there. In 2016, Ryan Sprague introduced the world to countless UFO encounters that had never been made public before. And now, in the second edition of his book, he revisits these events and introduces brand new UFO cases, in somewhere in the skies, a human approach to the UFO phenomenon. How have these events change the lives of those involved? And what might it tell us about the phenomenon? With in-depth follow-ups, brand-new chapters, and detailed testimony from credible witnesses

and insight from those in the psychological, academic, and scientific fields, somewhere in the skies, a human approach to the UFO phenomenon, weaves together a story of stories, attempting to get to the heart of these mysteries one experience at a time. Available now on Amazon in both paperback

and ebook. To learn more, visit somewhere in the skies.com. Welcome to part two of our series, UFOs in 2020, with our special guest, former law enforcement professional and investigative writer, Tim McMillan. Tim writes freelance currently for such venues as Vice Popular Mechanics and the Warzone. And today, we'll be covering the hotly debated Wilson Davis memo, and just exactly what it is. if it's real, and its place in this entire off-world vehicles revelation, brought forth recently in the New York Times. While initially very skeptical, with good reason,

Tim tells us what might have possibly changed his mind in relation to the entire Wilson Davis affair. I have this nagging concern that lingers with me with this Wilson documents. Eric Davis isn't lying. Eric Davis is, I don't believe he is. I have no problem saying on the record. There's nothing that tells me that Eric Davis is a lot. liar and that he's making this up, that he did meet with somebody.

Admittedly, he'd never met Thomas Wilson before that day of these notes. I have this concern that still lingers that makes me wonder, could he have been set up? Then Tim and I discuss Bob Lazar. After over 30 years of being discredited and scrutinized for his extraordinary claims of having worked on UFOs near Area 51, has Bob Lazar finally been vindicated? with all the recent news of UFO wreckage and materials in off-world vehicles. And what if he did actually possess the mysterious element 115 as he claims? Supposedly he has it.

And my thing is that that right there is what vindicates Pablo Zar's story. You know, short of them admitting, yeah, yeah, we got nine-name saucers. S-4, if he's right, that could easily vindicated story. You know, if he had that presented, I'm certain we could find somebody. Not only could Bob Lazar if he wanted to, and that was true, vindicate himself, but Ryan, he could actually, like, screw the government. We're not to worry about them. He could prove that extra thrill.

All of this is true, single-handedly. And he chooses to not to. Tim then gives us the inside scoop on his work on the History Channel television series, Unidentified. And we end with Tim answering your listener questions. I want to believe that there's a lot of. something else that is traversing the cosmos and visiting us because if something else can do it, then so can we. And I think that'd be pretty freaking cool. I'd like to do that.

It's an explosive part two of UFOs in 2020. And trust me, just when we thought this year couldn't get any stranger, we've only just begun. Here's part two with Tim McMillan. This is somewhere in the skies with Brian's bread. You did mention disinformation. Now, this is something I want to tackle with you here. Besides all of the recent New York Times discussion, you said powerful people. Admiral Wilson.

This is something, Tim, I'm not, I will admittedly say I'm not too familiar with. The Wilson Davis memo, it's all the rage on UFO Twitter and, yeah, man.

So I'm curious to hear if you're willing to maybe walk us through what this memo is and maybe give your thoughts on the whole debate behind it because I'm just diving in, man, and I don't know what to make of any of it. And I'm a bad UFO researcher for that.

Run while you still can't run. Maybe it is better. I didn't. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think? Oh, man. Okay.

So, no, much like yourself, I didn't pay much attention to these a year ago when they leaked out. And I have since found myself in dealing with them because they've become a big deal again. But so the 50,000 foot overview of these are, these are notes that are supposed to. authored by Dr. Eric Davis, who was a member of Bob Bigelow's Nid's team, National Institute of Discovery Science, back in the late 90s, early 2000s, and then later was also a contractor for his Bigelow Advanced Space, Vigolo Aerospace Advanced Space Studies.

Geez, why they're just simple words, man, FBIZ. So, anyway, who were awarded the AOSAP, another long acronym. The OSAP contract. So the UFO program. And so, you know, this was a meeting that these are notes that supposedly transcribed from a meeting that he, you know, held with a retired Admiral Thomas Wilson, who at one point in time, the late 90s was the, he was the assistant director and then the director of the defense intelligence agency. So kind of the DOD's CIA. So the military is CIA. He held what's called the J2 position, which is the, the intelligence.

advisor to the Joint Chiefs. I'm chuckling because it's an acronym Mindfield. And he held these positions, so it was pretty high-level position. And this meeting was supposedly occurred in 2001 or two. I don't have it in front of me, but around that time frame, right after he retired from the military. And, you know, it's got all the makings of a great movie or seen of the X-Files. You know, it occurred in the the parking lot of the EGNG special projects, who EG is the contractor who handles the flights to Area 51 and a lot of the oversight for Area 51. So in the parking lot.

And supposedly, you know, this Admiral Wilson relayed to Eric Davis that, you know, during his tenure in the government that he had sought out to see if there were any UFO programs and contractors who were working on crashed UFOs and that he had come across at least one contractor, aerospace company who indeed was doing something weird and he called him up and wanted access and that they admitted to him that they were working on reverse engineering crashed extraterrestrial vehicles

but that he did not have access and clearance to this and so therefore he was turned away, much to his chagrin. And so it's kind of the broad overview of these notes. Yeah, man. It's a lot to take in. And I think that's kind of what didn't take me out of it. Of course, I was interested and fascinated by it. But then you get to the whole idea of, is any of this even true?

Is it third-hand testimony? You know, Eric Davis says this was something told to him that he then jotted down. And that's where you start for me. I'm like, okay. Well, it's just hearsay that. So, yeah, sorry to interrupt, but yeah, what do you, where do you stand on it all? I mean, what are we talking here? This is kind of what we're learning where this off-world vehicle sentence came from in the New York Times.

So, yeah, bring it all back to us, Tim. Yeah, circle us around. Okay, no, no, I will tell you why, I mean, in a nutshell, why the, a year ago when these leaked out. And they leaked out from Edgar Mitchell, the former astronaut who passed away in 2016. they leaked out of his archive collection. And he was a board member of NIDS. And supposedly these were given to the board members and everything. The reason that I didn't put a lot of stock into them and ultimately still don't for this very reason is just understanding the fundamental principle of secrecy in general.

And so these notes hinge on the most important thing being that Abram Wilson supposedly found this program through budget line items. It was suspicious, called them up, accused him of having alien technology. He admittedly, according to the notes, didn't have access to the program. It wouldn't be granted access to the program. And therefore, the contractor, you know, was like, yeah, we're working on crash UFOs, but you can't come see. Well, that's not how secrecy works. You know, you don't, Ryan, you don't show up to somewhere. You know, you could show up to Lockheed, and they're working on the B-21 Raider.

So the replacement of the B-2 bomber. Or maybe they've got this SR-73, you know, something even we don't. don't know it really exists. And you're like, I know you're working on aliens and UFOs. You don't have access to that, right? They're not going to go. Yeah. Oh, well, there goes my Friday, so thanks for bursting that bubble.

Yeah, you don't have access, right? They're not going to actually tell you what they're really working on. And so if you showed up and said, I know you're working on aliens, they're going to go, yep, sure are, bud. Don't tell anybody. Now, go on get. And so, yeah, I mean, all roads, no matter what, whether the event is true or, you're you know, what Thomas Wilson said was true. It doesn't matter.

They all did in into this, A, was the contractor telling the truth. And comparatively to how secrecy actually works when you're not have access, there's an overwhelming evidence that says, no, they wouldn't be telling the truth. Now, to fast forward to when they, I will say that they have become something of renewed interest for me now. It has to do not for the reason a lot of people would think. And it's not that I believe that they are the linchpin to uncovering the crash UFO cover-up. It's far more interesting in that I've talked to enough people going back all the way back to the midstays who would have there in 2001 or two when this meeting occurred.

And so, you know, after the meeting occurred, Eric Davis would have spoke with. I mean, I've talked to plenty of individuals there that I find no evidence that Eric Davis is lying or that these memos that he didn't meet with somebody and that this was relayed. And that this information as he transcribed him isn't what he was told. It doesn't mean for certain it is. But I just say that interestingly enough, there's an overwhelming amount of evidence that says, yeah, this meeting occurred within the last, I guess, month or two with Billy Cox, excellent UFO journalist. He was able to speak to Admiral Wilson, Thomas Wilson, who gave a very, very interesting rebuttal to all this.

It sounded like fiction, never met with a guy, doesn't know who the hell Eric Davis is. What the hell are they talking about? You know, this is crazy. Far beyond what you kind of expect. I know the UFO community has said, well, of course he's just saying that to keep the cover up alive. You know? I'm like, okay.

Why wouldn't he just say, no. No comment on that. He said, why even answer? But for me, I think that people have overlooked, dismissed, and pushed to the side another set of documents that were leaked out simultaneously with these Wilson memos. And if you're not familiar, that was a series of email exchanges between Dr. Christopher Kit Green, Dr. Hal Putoff, and Dr. Davis. Same time frame. This email exchange was related to the Santilli Alien Autopsy Video. I'm sure you're familiar, right, right?

A little bit, yeah. Yeah. I wish the audience could see my eyes rolling right now. They might be able to even hear it at this point. But no, man, please tell me about this, because this is a subtopic within that whole thing where I'm like, are we seriously talking about the alien autopsy in 2020? Yes, you're telling you why?

Because this leaked documents. These leaked emails came out. And the emails were from Kit Green, you know, put off and Davis were asking him. because he had evidently relayed to them that he had been shown his alien autopsy video and told it was real. And Kit's saying, yeah, no, that's the video I saw. That's the video I saw. That's the video I saw that it was real. I've spoken to Kit, several occasions.

And it's always been very candid and said that, yes, he was shown the Santilli video that we all know to be a hoax. Okay. We know who filmed it. We know all this stuff. He said, yeah, no, I was shown that. I was told it was real. He didn't tell me who showed him that. He didn't tell me who told him it was real, but it was somebody that had enough authority

and enough credentials behind him that he believed them. We can assume, well, maybe that means Kit Green's just a credulous person. But I think if you really look at Kit Green's background, it's pretty impressive. He held some impressive positions for both General Motors and more importantly, the CIA. And so I don't just assume that he's credulous and, In fact, if you talk to Kit nowadays, he's pretty interesting because I wouldn't say that he is a much bigger skeptic of the UFO phenomena than people would even imagine. But he was fooled, and somebody with enough sophistication fooled him. Who?

Why? I don't know. Other than it could have been a prank. You know, it could have been some of the CIA colleagues are like, ah, let's get, get, you know. Back in my police days, we did all sorts of mean things to each other. So maybe that's true. Or I don't know, but he was definitely told that. And so what we see with these memo releases that I find interesting is that the ones have been dismissed here are telling us that somebody, someone, some organization, was providing disinformation to the NIDS, bass crew.

And Kit Green was a member of the NIDS board back then. And so therefore, I have this nagging concern that lingers with me with this Wilson document. documents is that Eric Davis isn't lying. Eric Davis is, I don't believe he is. Just I have no problem saying on the record. There's nothing that tells me that Eric Davis is a liar and that he's making this up, that he did meet with somebody. Admittedly, he didn't know.

He'd never met Thomas Wilson before that day of these notes. I have this concern that still lingers that makes me wonder, could he have been set up? We can tell with Kit Green. Somebody set him up. I'm not saying that that's the solution but I for me why that becomes more interesting is now you it brings this other weird element

to the UFO topic where it really is a wilderness mirrors Ryan I know I'm not doing you anything you know you know the cast of characters out there are very interesting you don't have to have government state actors who are involved in disinformation you can have just sophisticated hoaxers You have different people who have agendas.

So I wouldn't even gather to speculate who or why would try to deceive Eric Davis, possibly, or deceive Kit Green. I'm not suggesting that was a government conspiracy. You know, the NSA or whoever was like, let's set these guys up. But I'm not fully on board yet that for certain, Admiral Thomas J. Wilson met with Eric Davis and said. said everything that's in those notes, while equally not saying that Eric Davis is being dishonest by what he believes occurred. I don't know yet. It's interesting, but yeah, I mean, I think that lingering, ultimately that lingering overhead of the idea that at the end of the day, it all roads lead to was a contractor telling the truth. And all precedent, all evidence would

suggest no, they were not. And so I don't think these are the Lynch that are going to give us the Roswell bodies. I know a lot of people think they will, so who knows. This episode is brought to you by Netflix. Most valuable promotions in Netflix are hosting a blockbuster triple headliner Saturday, May 16th. Rhonda Rousey returns to face fellow woman's

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Who knows, man? And I mean, I think you bring up a good point of the people who bring these things forward, not the ones who gave them the information, but the actual whatever you want to call them whistleblower or individual who says they heard this. I would have to agree in many of these cases. I also believe that they are telling the truth as they see it and as they experienced it. And I think that really goes for the next individual who you've written about in the past. I have made this very clear on my show in public that I do believe Bob Lazar, yep, his name's coming up again for anyone out there who hates it. I'm sorry, but we have to touch on this. I have always been under the impression that he is telling the truth as he experienced it, what he saw, what he worked on, what that was. and the people who

hired him or had anything to do with it, what information they're feeding him, that's a whole other story. So I want to get your thoughts on this, Tim. He's back in the news, you know, he was on Rogan not too long ago, and I know you've spoken about Bob in your past article. So what do you make of the entire Bob Lazar affair?

Do you think anything happening right now in the UFO world vindicates, as some have said, Bob Lazar's claims? What do you make of all this? Good old Bob. Yeah, no, I've actually, I've spoken with Bob. For an article I put out in Vice in November that had to do with the quote-unquote FBI rate that was in the recent documentary, Jeremy Cole Bill's film. Yeah, you know, I was on the fence with Bob for a long time.

And I really went into it examining very objectively open-minded, open to any outcome. I will tell you that based on the overwhelming totality of evidence that I've uncovered or has been uncovered by plenty of great researchers, a lot better than me, but that I'm aware of, that can be substantiated and backed up. I would say in the dearth of known information and evidence, that the balance of probabilities that what he has said is being true. and even and I respect what you just said that he's telling the truth is he was solid and what he was exposed to. But I don't think that, you know, for me, I don't think that's accurate, at least from what the evidence shows. I think that there's not even enough evidence that he was ever in the position to see anything like what he's describing. I don't know there's, and I understand that recently you've had, you know, a form of, or SR 71 pilot or something who went on where the venue where all truths are told,

ancient aliens, to say that he was, that a friend told him that he saw. But we're going to this third hand thing. That Lazar was ever at Area 51. I think that the czar, if he's not telling the truth, he's very good at it. And he presents himself in a way, now, I won't go down that route. I was going to put on my behavioral profiling hat like I used to doing police, but I don't think that that's, I don't think that's fair. I'll just say that he's good at it. And I mean, when I, I'll be happy to say when I interviewed him, you know, I had gotten the entire case file for the search of his business that was shown in the film from the Michigan State Police and also a local police department there.

I had spoken with some of the law enforcement officials who were there. And, you know, so obviously there was just this wealth of evidence that it wasn't what is it was portrayed in the movie. And this element 115 deal. And in fact, the FBI, you know, when they were called in, all this kind of stuff. And so, you know, when I pushed him on those details when we spoke, you know, he brought in new details to explain away my concerns. You know, I think a good example is that event. And that recency bias causes us to see whatever information is in front of us and believe that that's the most accurate or forget about those other details. But, you know, there's a lot of things there, you know, when that raid occurred, the day after that rate occurred, Bob Lazar went on Reddit via his employee.

They worked there at United Nuclear and said, hey, guys, he described the rate exactly to a T as the police reports did. exactly what was about and everything. It didn't become an area of an Element 115 raid until the movie came out. And, you know, I brought that up with Bob. Like, what the hell, dude? You know? And that's when that, you know, supposedly he was cornered upstairs by some FBI agents who mentioned it element 115. And it becomes this thing like, well, why are more details always added?

Why aren't we saying all this up front? Why is this not a clear and concise story? But I think I'll just say that my ultimate final opinion on those are is that at the end of the day, I don't want to express any more brain energy on that story because he told me. Well, he did not confirm for it. But definitely enough people around him seem to confirm it that he supposedly has a secret piece of element 115, this alien fuel that powers the saucers. We won't even get on to how the hell do you sneak that off of a place that's the most secure place in the world. Neither who nor there. Supposedly he has it.

And my thing is that that right there is what vindicates Bablazar's story, short of them admitting, yeah, yeah, we got nine saucers. S4, he's right. That could easily vindicate his story. That could easily, you know, if he had that presented, I'm certain we could find somebody with the right kind of. of a background that would be interested in this this and that would not only would could bob lazar if he wanted to and that was true vindicate himself but but ryan he could actually like screw the government we're not to worry about them he could prove that extra thrills all of this is true single-handedly and um he chooses not to i ask him you know would

would he be willing to come out with this element 115 and prove it and he he is ever words were absolutely not but maybe if he got adequate funding in a big lab so you paid him and got him in a big lab then maybe he would come out with it so um yeah which important to know there at one point in time a lot of people don't realize but in the early 90s he had that by Bigelow funded him so he had that big money in lab and he actually lost all that because I think um according to Jacques valet, Bob came in, Bob Bigelow, that is,

came in and discovered, you know, either whatever Element 115 or some other type of product he was saying, was alien, it was actually some industrial, something that was in a bottle in the lab. So, yeah, I just, that's where I stand now,

Ryan, is that, yeah, I mean, if what he's saying is true, then besides the stories that are clearly unprovable, supposedly he has, That's physical proof. I mean, why people aren't going,

demanding Bob Lazar give disclosure, I'll never know. Well, and you got to wonder too, Tim, we know he wrote his, somebody, sorry, somebody wrote his autobiography. I won't go there. People know my thoughts on Bob Lazar's book at this point. But the fact that he is in connection with Tom DeLong, clearly they published his autobiography.

You got to wonder, you know, how far does that relationship go? Could Bob Lazar get the funding he needs through to the stars or, or as we're learning, to the stars working with the Army now? And the other big thing is, if he is in possession of this element that supposedly fuels these craft that he witnessed, is it hidden somewhere and is that in insurance, you know, when he first came forward, he said, this is why? why I came forward. It was an insurance on my life. Now people know and they won't take me out, you know, in the shadows. You know, are we going to see this element come forward when, you know, ultimately, as we all do, leave this mortal coil when Bob Lazard does that?

Are we going to finally get the map to where he hit it or what? But you make a good point. If he had this, and as he always claims, the technology I reverse engineered could change the world for the better forever. why is he keeping it hidden somewhere when he himself could change the world with this? I have to wonder too. And I know anybody who listens to this who definitely is, you know, firmly believes Lizard. That's fine. I get that. I'm not trying to change minds here. But yeah, no, I know one of those arguments is, well, no, he can't come forward with it.

You know, the government would off him or that he'd go to jail and everything. And everything that you just said, what he said, is this could change the world for. the better that this would prove alien life. Well, I think God did history had people like Harry Tudlin or Martin Luther King or Nathan Hale who were willing to

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Well, okay. Well, we've pretty much tackled everything we possibly could, Tim. But I do have some listener questions if you're willing to stick around for those. Yeah, absolutely, ma'am. Awesome. All right. Well, the first one here comes from Mountains of Madness on Twitter. Love that name.

What do you think about Richard Dolan's concept of a breakaway civilization? This is a really interesting thing, you know, that Dolan pretty much came up with, I think, you know, maybe decades ago. But do you know anything about what this term is, Tim, and make anything of it? Just generally. I haven't heard Richard Dolan's version of it. But I would say that variations of it I've heard from various people. In fact, a good buddy of mine who I've written for the Warzone, Tyler Rogueway, who's the editor over there.

I mean, he, I will say, I think he'd be okay with me saying that he kind of espouses a, maybe a similar breakaway civilization idea for what the tick-tack and stuff are but rather puts that breakaway in kind of the military industrial complex um so i'm not sure if dolens is like a true i know there's a true breakaway civilization um and uh yeah i don't know i mean i think that um it's an interesting story but there's a lot of interesting stories in this field and you know i hear a lot of of interesting stories and I think that's an interesting story and I usually just stick with them there but in terms of what I think is provable and there's evidence to support it falls into that where I haven't seen any evidence to support that and it raises a lot of interesting questions

like what the hell is you know we don't have any clue we can't honestly comprehend how alien psychology or what the thought processes of real true aliens would be because it's alien. I mean, we don't know. We can interpret human behavior. And so I don't know what, you know, I can't think of a human parallel comparison to where you would develop something that is so far advanced. And that's kind of the lost point in all of it when we consider it being classified black technology is that, you know, the, if,

we take for face value that some of the videos, some of the photographs or, you know, the testimony about highly skilled aviators like commander Fravor and the pilots who witnessed the Tic Tac and what they saw, you know, we're talking about objects that are capable of achieving flight by means that we have no clue how to do. You know, whether it's the B-2 stealth bomber or the Wright brothers plane, flight is achieved by the exact same principle. There's been no dramatic change there. You know, it's same principles of lift, angle of attack with the control surfaces and wings. That's how we achieve flight, whether it's helicopters, planes, whatever.

The only other option is firing a rocket as fast as we can in the air. But that's the only ways we know how to achieve flight. And so when you're talking about these objects that lack control surfaces, you know, just kick out all the instantaneous acceleration and all of the. ability to stop on a dime and acute angled turns, that's just a massive list of aerospace abilities that we don't even know how to do one. So somebody could have developed that completely in secret and then break away, either A, hide it within government or B, hide it. I don't know where the hell are they hiding. Antarctica, I don't know. But when you work intelligence, you know,

criminal intelligence and any intelligence, investigative intelligence, you know, the first questions that you want to answer are motivation and intent. When you know motivation and intent, everything else kind of falls into play. And so I don't, I mean, I don't know and I would be willing to listen to Richard Dole or anybody else try to help explain what they think the motivation and intent for a breakaway society. Yeah. That's a really good way of putting it. And, you know, it comes down to the highest bidder, Tim, whoever gets that technology.

And there's a motivation right there. Yeah, yeah, there's the motivation right there. Yeah. Right. A really good point. They're not bidding it. That's a really good point. All right.

Well, Sarah M. on Twitter asks, how is your knowledge of the UFO phenomenon changed your outlook on life? How have your paradigms changed? This is what my book is. about how these events affect you afterward, before, during. Yeah, Tim. Yeah, how did your UFO event change you, if it did in any way? You know, I wish that I could say, one of the things, and we talked about that first seven years before I started writing articles,

when I was looking at this from a kind of a cognitive investigative approach, is one of the things that I, probably the only thing that I was able to really gather that conclusively was identify a behavioral profile of people who had, actually experienced real anomalous events. So real sightings of UFOs. And because it was very consistent. And like I said, I was a behavioral profile. So it was kind of what you do.

And so I wish that I had had events like them because that profile was very interesting because it was always consistent in that describing and discussing the events were a little uncomfortable. I use this term because it's really the only one that I have to associate the behavioral demeanor, but it sounds bad. And that is even in retelling the story is shame. It's like they're ashamed in a way that they have seen this and this has occurred. They were often while telling it, it's very interesting because they mitigate kind of the surreal nature of it in their mind to themselves.

So not to you that they're telling it to, but you'll, you'll, nine out of ten times as they're telling the story, they will try to explain possibly a prosaic explanation that doesn't fit. You know, like I'll say, well, no, there was an airport nearby, so it could have been a plane, but, you know, never mind. That wouldn't fit because it shot off it, you know, 50,000 miles per hour. So they go this weird kind of ebb and flow with trying to explain it to themselves, but they all have this consistent behavior profile that, to me, peers that whatever that they saw there's no doubt my mind that it was so consistent that it challenged their definition of reality it was it was it was tough for them like it's it's just weird because it's not supposed to be real and it challenged it I didn't my experience wasn't like that and that's what I said I didn't nothing that I saw performance wise like

what I saw didn't just like dart off in an instant and me go holy shit that's not supposed to be real. I didn't see anything upclothes, that type of thing. And so it didn't have this dramatic effect on me that I think has for a lot of other people that truly have. I mean, that's probably some of the most conclusive evidence that they've seen. They've encountered something, at least that they perceive, is not in their reality. And so, yeah, my experience didn't change me in that regard. Probably the biggest change was just created this new mystery. that I wanted to solve. The idea that UFOs could represent aliens, interdimensional, you know, space poltergeist, or black technology has always been on the table.

I'm okay with any of those. But it's the mystery and intrigue of it. And so I would say that if anything big changes, it gave me a really great topic to explore. Yeah. Because I don't, if you like mysteries, it's fantastic. Because it's full of twist and turns. Oh, yeah. And no end in sight either.

No, so yeah. No, I wish I could say that it changed me dramatically, but not in the way that I saw with real experiencers. Let's just say that. And I'm not talking about abduction experiences, but just experiencers of anomalous events. Well, I think that's a great answer to him. I think you're right. The journey is always far more real. awarding than the destination with many things in life, but I do agree. And if anything, you just coined a

new term that I'm probably going to steal on that space polterghost? Wow, that's a bad name right there. That, well, yeah, and I can't take credit for that. That's Jason Calavito, who, who very critical. Yeah. Yes, he, I don't even know if it's true. He always brings it up saying that, actually, how put-off should be the person attributed that. I don't even know. I've spoken to how he's never said bolder guys, but according to Jason Calavito, he believes in space polar guys. Interesting. But yeah, it's a fun one, huh? Yeah, I love it, man.

Again, this topic can be fun if people let it be. So, all right. Well, here's a fun one for you. And politics aside to Peter on Facebook asks, do you think Trump may play this card of if he knows anything about all of this? You think you might play this card in the election or if he loses the nomination this time around will he tweet about it at like 3 a.m. as a mic drop. I know this is getting into really hypothetical murky territory, sensitive territory. But yeah, what do you think? Trump going to do

anything, man? No. I don't think he is one way or another. Not, not, I mean, that's just straight from the hip. I've got nothing to give you a reason why every interview that he's ever, been brought up with him and everything. That doesn't seem to be an issue or domain that I think he's spent a considerable amount of time of, even though he may have been briefed. He may have received briefings. He, you know, obviously this task force falls under the executive branch and therefore falls under his control. I just don't think he's had the same amount of interest. And I don't think that President Trump, I don't think he sees it as this potential election saver or even like big

FU if he lost the election. I don't think he's he views the topic that way. You know, he said that's just totally from the hip. I don't, I don't see it happening. But who knows? Hey man. You know, I'm listening up.

It's 2020, right? Yeah, man. Hashtag UFO Twitter. He may hit it up. Yeah, who knows? We might see him on there something. But, uh, okay. Here's our last listener question. Ray

and UFO nut on Twitter. both ask a similar question here. Have you or anyone you know ever tried to reach Neil McCasland for comments? This is the guy who supposedly gave his information to Tom DeLong. He was kind of the one who connected DeLong to all these powerful intelligence people and in everything. I mean, and told DeLong some pretty profound stuff, you know, something crashing 47, this, that, this, that. Yeah. And has anyone ever tried to reach this guy? Because he seems to be the one. who started this all. Yeah.

No, no. And yes. And I have. I have indeed. reached out to General McCaslin. Because he's retired now, and you're right. He is mentioned in the WikiLeaks. And he, I'm not certain that Tom DeLong has ever, maybe he has been identified as the general, that, you know, the infamous.

I don't know if the person, you know, it was called. Yeah. We found a life for him. But, yeah, no, I have reached out to him. And he didn't answer for. me. I mean, it's not a subject that he cares to discuss and, you know, even off the record. So he didn't he didn't even tell me, yeah, no, here's the real truth, but this is off the record. It was, it's not something he cares to discuss. I think the UFO field in general has a, it often

makes assumptions based on what people say. I have, I have joked with Lou Elizando that, you know, every word that he says, people think is a hint for disclosure. And so I, I say, I said, you know, He sells obscure books by mere mention. And, you know, I think we often have a bad habit of reading too much into things. And so I don't, his unwillingness to want to discuss it doesn't sway me either way as to whether he did meet with the long and tell him all these things or, and he just doesn't, you know, it's classified. You don't want to talk about it because, you know, Tom DeLong does not have a security clearance. on the same page. At the same time, it doesn't mean he didn't.

I think that kind of one of these things that if you take yourself out of the UFO community and you're not an enthusiast of the subject, you realize the UFO community makes it in a bad, they have a bad habit of making it a lose-lose situation. Because, you know, if he came out and said, no, no, that's not, you know, that's not what really happened. And, you know, at least not from my end. You know, maybe Mr. DeLong misinterpreted. You know, I thought he was talking about a fictional book or movie, and I was giving him ideas.

I thought I was being a consultant or a subject matter expert, you know, helping out a friend or something. That was not real life. If he says that, everybody's going to come out and go, he's lying. It's the cover up. If he came out and said, yeah, hell yeah, it's true. Yep, true, true. Half of them are going to go, it's the cover up, you know, somehow. Or, you know, the other half are going to, I don't know, Storm Wright Patterson.

Who knows? So there's no advantage for him discussing it one way or another. So I don't know. But I have tried. You know, I know a lot of people and people are like, we've got to put pressure on my cast. And I'm like, look, I'm not going to break into this retired general's home and harass him. Right. Well, that's another thing, too, Tim.

I mean, there have been some irresponsible journalists in the past who have outed people. one of which was the female pilot during the Nimitz event who never wanted their name out there. And a quote-unquote journalist put her name out there. And that's just, you know, one of the most irresponsible things you can do. And I mean, if that person worked for a mainstream outlet, they would have been fired immediately. But yeah, I think it's hard because a lot of these things are unsubstantiated and made by anonymous people. And where do you go from there? But it's, It is tough because you can understand on one side of it. These people don't want to be connected to this, but they do want to get the information out. And some of them just they don't want their names or faces out there. And you have to respect that. Yeah, it's tough because when it is anonymous, that's when the UFO community starts going crazy and making shit up. Yeah.

Or they can't. And I'll tell you the pilot that you're referring to, I've spoken to her several times. And I consider her to be the most. compelling eyewitness to that event of all the pilots I spoke to. And yeah, it's very unfortunate because in her case, yeah, no, I was very close to, I mean, she was willing to go on the record with me and name and everything because, and hopefully when she retires one day, she will. But, you know, she's still in the Navy. And so she can't, I mean, she has to get approval for the Navy to come out and say this. And they didn't want to give approval to that. And so, yeah, no, I mean,

I mean, you're right, because there are other, there's times that I have used sources that are anonymous. You know, even in those instances, because I know, I understand why people will question that. And I completely agree. It should be questioned. You know, those are one of the reasons that I try to write for major publications because, you know, in the editing and review, in fact finding and legal process, you know, even though they're anonymous and the article to the average reader, they're verified to the editor because it's their publication's name going behind it. So they know who they are. But once that occurs, you know, if you, if we agree, if I say, yeah, no, I'm willing to, you know, I won't name who you are. Yeah, no, I'm Supreme Court case law. I'm legally bound to do that. And so I think in this case that you're talking about, this was a leak of some information and how her name was put out there. So this, this particular person didn't have any agreement with them. But yeah, I mean, you, as a journalist, you're, you're actually legally obligated to protect somebody's identity if you promised to. But I think that's why it's important. that if you're going to do that, you have to couple that with physical evidence, whether it's documents, you know, or other people on the record that you can't, I would never

try to make anybody believe something based solely on an unnamed person because it's just too hard. You know, you can't do that. Well, some of these people, Tim, in the military who have been witnessed to a lot of these events we saw recently on an episode of Unidentified on the History Channel and a couple of of them were anonymous. Most of them came forward, but someone else was featured in that episode, and I have to ask you, man, unidentified. You were on the most recent episode as of when this episode's airing of the podcast. So yeah, how was that whole experience working with to the stars and the history channel? And would you take away from that whole experience? Yeah, no, no. That was

and I believe I will be, yeah, whenever this is airing. So actually, probably the next episode, whenever this aired. So if you're this next week. So I'm supposed to be in that one a lot more. Oh, okay. So you're not a one-trick pony. No, and it should get everybody really excited because I think I play the part of the skeptic. I will say, man, it was a great experience.

And for a lot of reasons, and it gives you an idea. And I know you've been on television shows and you've been in productions. And so you realize behind the scenes you get a better understanding is that a lot of the assumptions people make are just incorrect. You know, this idea that this is a, I'll say up front, this is a, quote, To the Stars Academy production, that's incorrect. I mean, this is, this is an A&E History Channel production. Production Control is by the showrunner and everything. Obviously, you have Christopher Mellon, you have Louis Alizando and that, you have Tom DeMalong,

so you have the Tudu Scars Academy cast, but the idea that this is a To The Stars Academy program. I mean, it is not correct. And so, because I get that a lot, you know, I knew that was coming. You know, you're a TTCSA shill. Well, no, if I'm anything, I'm an A&E shill. But not DTSA. But one of the things that I was very, very impressed with is I was very very impressed with Anthony Lapp, the show runner. So the guy who's running the whole shebang.

He was our guest last week, actually, Tim. Oh, was he? Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. I had a blast. You know, we filmed in London, and so I spent three days in London, hanging out, you know, it's kind of, you know, you've been on TV. We filmed for eight hours and, you know, I'll probably get a collective of five minutes. Yeah, if you're lucky.

Right. But it was a great conversation. And then after that, getting to hang out, me and Anthony hung out a lot, you know, went out to dinner those nights, hung out, chatted a lot. And I'll just say that he's a really solid guy. and he is, if you look into Anthony's background, I mean, he's legitimate investigative documentaries and everything. This is not, and by no means what I classify Anthony is a UFO nut per believer. And, you know, that was one of the things that was really impressed with. He's very skeptical of all this. You know, even being around these people, he doesn't disbelieve them. He's skeptical

of it, which is good, because I think if you're going to do a show, if you're going to do anything, that's the type of people you would want those open-minded skeptics who are going to take it seriously and so for me I was very impressed I thought that the way that they went about things you know the entire time during post-production you know I was in contact Anthony or his associate producers would frequently reach out to me just asking fact-checking stuff they put a lot of effort in to try to make sure that they got things accurate And so, you know, it's always going to be TV. It's always going to be entertaining, you know.

I mean, it's just the way it is. But I was very, very impressed with that. It's a lot of fun. And believe it or not, I haven't even watched any of the episodes this season, but it has nothing to do. Not thinking the show is great and everything. It's because I'm out of Germany. I have to hook up the VP.

And they haven't, you know, it's not in Europe market yet. So I have to hook up the VPN and, you know. Or steal it offline. But yeah, wish them much success because I think that I'll be interested. I definitely, I take it back. I have seen the first two episodes. I saw them through the screeners. But, you know, I think it would impress a lot of people to realize that nobody's,

when I filmed with them, we sat in and chatted just like we are now, right? Nobody told me what to say. Nobody led me down any mass. I mean, in that regard, it's as legitimate as can be for a T. production. It's saying a lot. I mean, I, you know, I'm glad to hear that because there are things I've been involved with. I won't name them. But when you do these things, you have to bite and scratch and just, you know, do everything you can to get the right words in there. I mean, editors can change something you say entirely with, you know, the cut of a word here or there. So it's tough. It's a tough

industry and if they have a preconceived narrative or or idea of what they want, they will find a way to do it. So, you know, it's good to hear that they kind of just let you do your thing. And that's why you were there to give the facts and to give your opinions as an educated person on this topic. So it's very refreshing to hear that they are continuing that even up until hopefully the rest of the season. But, yeah, Tim, I guess to sort of wrap things up, I've got one final closing question for you. And we have a lot of younger listeners of this show. People just starting to get their feet wet in this topic. They reach out to me constantly, like, asking where to turn, what to do.

Like, how do I get involved with UFOs and studying researching it? So what advice would you give to these people who are just starting to get into this? topic with so much baggage, so many different belief systems and disinformation, oh God, the list goes on and on. Where should they turn for credible information when it comes to UFOs? Isn't that cool? I just got my first email like that. Yeah, it never gets old. It's amazing. Yeah. I was from a fifth grader who was doing a report. And they asked me, I thought it was cool. It's awesome. I actually got him some quotes from Lou Elizando and some people

for their for their report and I said you know what hang on man oh man well I would I would give to have been that fifth grader's friend back at the day yeah that was cool you know yeah that was it was cool opportunity like that and so I'll I'll give you Lou Elizondo's answer to this young man because it was mine identical and that was I think the first and foremost thing I would encourage anybody especially a young person who was interested in investigating or researching the topic would be to, before you start investigating researching UFOs, get some books and literature on investigation, period. So, you know, how to process, synthesize, and gather information and make determinations for yourself.

Because the basis, you know, he said, I apply the same rules that I use in investigating homicides that I do to UFOs. Same principles. So they're universal. And that will help you. And when you start going through the UFO literature and all these different things kind of cut through what is good, what is evidence. One, two, three, four, give me a break, give me a break, break me off a piece of that kidcat, give me a break. Break me off a piece of that Kit Kat bar. Have a break. Have a Kit Kat.

Follows the rules of evidence and follow those paths. From my part, what's helped me in kind of what I do, you know, it's not come from reading UFO books except for the latest book that was reached just recently by Ryan's Pregg. Everybody go check it out. I realize as I'm leading into this, not encouraging UFO books. I'm like, wait a second, Ryan, just kidding. Because they're great. But getting some basis before there, probably one of the best, some of the best books I've read to help me navigate the government's current UFO. involvement comes from books on bureaucracy and policy that have nothing to do with you.

Interesting. But understanding the frame. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to understand what you're working with. If you're talking about government, you know, cover up programs conspiracy, we'll understand government, understand how policy works. And you realize that's how you can attack it. That's how I've been successful in getting a hold of people, whether they're in government

or just got out, is understanding their mind and understand the world that they work in. And so, yeah, I mean, having, if you want to really make an impact in the field, I think get some literature and some learning behind you in investigations and the fields that you're going to be looking into. So both the sciences and everything. And then after that, it's hard. I think that people will kind of figure out for themselves what are the good books, the good videos, the good shows that can give you good information and what wants. because you'll know what is good information. So I don't have like a one book or one show or one whatever, but that would be my biggest advice to people is do that.

And then don't be afraid to look at some of the historical literature. You're out there. Look at the stuff that's going back to the 60s and 70s, and you start to see the patterns. Don't think that this is something that just started to do. day because quite frankly that is what makes it a compelling interesting topic it's not new though it may feel that way and so you know my philosophy with all of it as well as don't set your goal at thinking you're going to solve what are UFOs i think that will lead you down a path where you're going to

a get frustrated or be to be influenced or add in bad information just to make things fit because nobody likes mystery you know the unknown is very hard on our psychology. And so don't set your goal that you're going to solve it. Enjoy the process of trying to solve it. And, you know, if we never figure out what UFOs are, but we figure out how to travel like them, that's pretty freaking cool. I mean, I think, you know, if I had to say anything, I think that's what makes me, if I had a, I want to believe mentality, it's, I want to believe that there's something else that is traversing the cosmos and visiting us because if something else can do it, then so can we. And I think that'd be pretty freaking cool. I'd like to do that. Who cares if you

figure out where the aliens are? I'd rather be the aliens. So, you know, let's go visit. Let's go visit them. So yeah, I think, like I said, I wish I had a good concise answer. I guess I need to write a book, huh? Yeah. That way I can say, well, I can plug my own book. What you need to buy is. No, I think that's a perfect way to sort of wrap this up. It is. It's an aspiration. Like we mentioned earlier, it's a want to believe that we are capable of the things that we are seeing and that defy everything we once thought we knew.

And that's exciting to think that, you know, as humans, there will always be growth and potential for something better, hopefully something better. But, no, I love it. That's what history shows us. You know, don't be, as long as you stay in those good kind of, you know, grounded domains, don't ever be ashamed about looking at that. I mean, that's, you know, the paranormal is just stuff that's not normal now. Yes. 2000, you know, 3,000, 4,000, 5,000 years ago, you know, some kind of deity carried the sun up every day and carried it down every night.

Yeah, that's paranormal. So oftentimes we attribute paranormal. aspects to what is inherently natural phenomena, but still awe-inspiring and lead to this whole existence. And so there's nothing wrong with you know that. There's another wrong with looking at things like that. In fact, that's how innovation. That's how, like you just said, that's how humanity goes forward. Well, Tim, in terms of looking, got to ask finally, where can we find everything you're up to? Is there anything you can share that you're working on? I know that's usually a tough question to answer when it comes to what you cover. But yeah, man, where can we

find everything that you're up to? Yeah. You will. I'm on Twitter, much to my, you know, maybe I shouldn't be, but I am. You can find me on Twitter at at LT Tim McMillan. I have a website, too, which is also LT.T.T.com. So any one of those places, you know, my email is available on any of those, I try very hard to go out of my way to answer anybody's questions or anything that they have. I learn lots from people who reach out to me and new insights. So yeah, if anybody's got any questions or anything, feel free to reach out. I'll try. If I don't answer in a quick manner, it's not personal, I promise. You're three little kids who always seem to be both. Yeah. Not to mention you're 12 hours ahead of some of us, so that's hard to. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yep, we're half a world away

from each other right now. So you're right. I'm in Germany, so a lot of times messages come in different time zones. But you find me there and I have a lot of different things in the works. I can't, I wish I could tell you exactly when stuff's coming out. I know people want that, but that's my biggest thing is just like I said. It's just like I said, just like that popular mechanics article. To me, it's not about putting out more. It's about putting out good. And so I try to just put out stuff that contributes to the body of knowledge on this topic and helps other people jump forward or whatever. And so, yeah, hopefully in the next, I mean, I usually kind of line it up in this same cycle. So if you've paid attention to what I did last year where something came out in November, December, something big in January, you know, something else right after that, or February, I should say, the Valentine's Day Massacre in January.

So usually they're staggered like that. So the fall kind of December sweeps. Hopefully we'll have some more stuff coming out. But yeah, I'm as eager as anybody else to get it out there. But for me, it's just making sure that, you know, even the hardened skeptic can come out and go, okay, well, this is, yeah, okay. Yeah, I got this. Yeah, you're right. I can't dispute this.

I can say it will not involve crash UFOs, at least not now. I don't have anything on that in the work. please don't. Please nobody get excited there. Yeah, you heard it here first, guys. Don't have that, but if anybody's got conclusive evidence of that, by all means, though, I will gladly bring that forward. Yes, don't have that. Or the map to the element 115. Yeah. Mr. Lazare, if you're listening, if you want to just ship it to me, I will gladly share it with the world and take the consequences. Oh, Tim, dude, this has been absolutely fascinating. We covered so much.

But, you know, I just want to tell you, thank you for what you're doing for this topic. I think it's given it that extra level of legitimacy we've been waiting for for over 70 years. I look forward to seeing you on Unidentified and Whatever comes next, man. So again, thank you for joining me today on Somewhere in the Skies. Thanks for having me, Ryan. I appreciate it, man. That's it for part two of our series of UFOs in 2020 with Tim McMillan. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I. did. And I hope you'll consider rating and reviewing someone in the skies on Apple Podcasts,

Spotify, your Android apps, or wherever you get the show. Every rating and review helps us gain visibility and find new listeners. So head over to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever, and rate and review right now. Thank you in advance. You can follow the show on Twitter at SummerSkies and Instagram at Summer SkiesPod. Check out the Ryan Spreck YouTube channel for all of my videos, whether it's case files, past and present interviews, and all audio episodes as well. And please also be sure to check out the new website and contact me personally with your own UFO stories, all at somewhere in the skies.com. I'll see you here next week, and remember, keep your feet on the ground, but never stop searching Somewhere in the Skies.

Somewhere in the Skies is produced by Third Kind Productions in association with the Entertainment One podcast network.