Somewhere in the Skies - UFOs, Cattle Mutilations, and the Mysterious Valley

Episode Date: September 17, 2023

On episode 335 of SOMEWHERE IN THE SKIES, we are joined by author and researcher, Christopher O'Brien. From 1992 to 2002, O’Brien investigated over 1,000 paranormal events reported in the San Luis Valley—located in south-central Colorado/north-central New Mexico. Working with law enforcement officials, ex-military, ranchers and an extensive network of skywatchers, he documented what may have been the most intense wave of unexplained activity ever seen in a single region of North America. His ten-year investigation resulted in the three books of his “mysterious valley” trilogy" and a book titled, "Stalking the Herd", which examines our relationship with cattle and how this has manifested into the modern “cattle mutilation” mystery. We will discuss all of this and more on this special livestream episode where we'll also take your listener questions.  Find Christopher O'Brien's work at: http://www.ourstrangeplanet.com Read Ryan’s Articles by CLICKING HERE Opening Theme Song, "Ephemeral Reign" by Per Kiilstofte Copyright © 2023 Ryan Sprague. All rights reserved. Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I wrote a little song to remind you, Choice Hotels, get you more of the experiences you value. The Can Bea Hotels got it all. A rooftop bar, have a ball. Bring a date, your squad, or even your mom. Book direct at choiceotails.com. The Summer in the Sky's podcast is free to listen to you every week. But if you would like to help support the show,

we have a very active Patreon page, where you give what you think the show is worth. In return, you'll get early access to the show. the main show, bonus episodes, and priority to ask our guests your listener questions. Your support truly makes the show continue and grow. So to learn more and to join, visit patreon.com slash somewhere skies. This is Somewhere in the Skies with Ryan Sprague. This has been a long time in the making. I am so excited to have today's guest with us. He's been a huge inspiration. for me throughout the years.

I have followed his career. I have followed his co-hosting of one of my favorite podcasts, The Paracast for a very long time. And I can't wait to dig into all of his work with you guys tonight, the life, the career of the one and only Christopher O'Brien. So I'm not going to do a bio for him. We will let him give us the rundown of who he is, what he's done. If you haven't heard of him, I don't know how that is even possible.

But yeah, we're going to dig deep into a lot of his work tonight, especially with cattle mutilations. A topic we've actually never really broached here on somewhere in the sky. So I will forewarn you. We will have some possibly disturbing images that we will be showing tonight. So just a disclaimer for you guys out there who are sensitive to stuff like that. But without further ado, let's bring him in for the very first time. believe I'm saying that to somewhere in the skies. We have Christopher O'Brien. Chris, welcome to somewhere in the skies. Yeah, good to be here, Ryan. Thanks for inviting me. Let's got to start with

the origin story. Again, you know, there might be some new people here who aren't familiar with your book series or stalking the herd even. But I want to get, let's start from the beginning. Can you tell us a little about yourself where you were born, born and raised and all that? Yeah, fair enough. Cool. I'm one of those people in the field that, you know, people always say, well, how come I've never heard of you? And, you know, it's quite simple.

I'm not interested in creating a cult of personality around myself. I'm not interested in paying my bills with my investigative work. I'm just a really curious guy. And I was born in California. I'm a fifth generation, California. However, six months old, my parents moved to Washington State. I grew up in Medina, which is on the lake in Bellevue. My paper route when I was 12 years old, if I had it today,

I would have been Bill Gates' paperboy, put it that way. I grew up in an upper middle class family. I was adopted. I was turned on to all these subjects, I guess innocently, when I was followed around my neighborhood at age six by a group of non-human entities carrying these rods in their hands

that were almost as tall as they were. They're about three and a half, four feet tall. I called them stick men with spears because that's the only description that I could really come up with for, you know, what I was seeing. I knew they were very, strange and that they supposedly didn't exist. I was smart enough to know that. And that

experience changed my life. I've never, I've never really, you know, it was before that and then there was after. And I, you know, I was very smart when I was a little kid. I was able to read when I was three. And of course, I instantly, as a, as a five-year-old, I started to, you know, gravitate towards the subject of UFOs and science fiction. And I found very early on, well, incident at Exeter, the John, I think John Fuller book had come out, had just come out. I managed to wrangle a copy of that and read it.

I read Valet's first book. I read some early keel. I read all about the contactees. You know, for a long time, I thought, wow, maybe aliens are coming down from Mars or, you know, moons of Jupiter or somewhere in the solar system and interacting with us. You know, I thought that it was almost like an automatic knee-jerk response. And, you know, over time, of course, that is that particular interpretation of what we're dealing with has faded quite a bit. I've actually developed into quite an agnostic when it comes to the extraterrestrial

hypothesis. I don't actually for a minute think that we're being visited by aliens from another planet. I think that they've been here longer than we have. We might be the aliens. They might be more terrestrial than we are just to make things more interesting. So I grew up as a closet UFO buff. I didn't really want to be associated with the subject because when I was little and growing up all through college, it was a taboo subject really socially. You didn't really talk about it.

It wasn't something that was going to endear you to people. And so I kept my mouth shut and I just, I was a closet buff. Now, I moved to New York right out of high school to go to college at City University. I actually had a scholarship to Columbia. I was going to go to school of journalism there, but I just didn't want to go into debt for the rest of my life. So it was a partial scholarship. It wouldn't have covered near enough.

So I went to the school. It didn't cost anything, which was probably a smart move on my part. You know, in New York, one of the highlights was actually, there we go. I had to swing those on yet. I had to, you know, full, full disclosure. I was dosed by my drummer in my very first band when I was about ready to turn 13. I was dosed on LSD, the last batch of Stanley Augustus Aousley, the third, his parting gift to the world was a million hits of Christmas trees. And I got one of them, or a four-way hit, if you want to get down to it.

was a four-way hit a blotter, it again, like my experience with the little guys, the little stickman, I've never been the same since. Since then, I've never said this before publicly, Ryan, so this is a big scoop for you. You're looking at somebody that's probably done psychedelics, I don't know how many hundred times,

window pain, blotters, double domes, microdots, pure organic THC. I had a chemist friend synthesized mescaline for me in high school. Most of this was in high school between, well, between the ages of 15 and 25. I spent more of my time high on psychedelics than I did straight. Wow. I'm actually proud of that, that I came. through relatively unscathed, not like some burnouts out there. Sid Barrett from Pink Floyd, of course, comes to mind as an example of what can happen. I do not urge anyone to follow in my

footsteps in this regard. It's not for everybody. I had some severe psychological and sociological issues to deal with being an adopted kid and having been raised in an abuse of household and I use it as a therapeutic device to save and maintain my sanity from the abuse that I experienced. Most of quite a bit of the time that I did psychedelics, I did them standing in front of a mirror. So draw your own conclusions on that. It got to the point, though, when I was in high school, that I was so proficient at at negotiating the landscape, the psychedelic landscape, that I actually began to be sought out by people

and to give them their wings and to take them for their first flights, shall we say. And I mean, people were bringing their parents. They were bringing their spouses. They're bringing their boyfriends or girlfriends. And it got to the point where I felt that I was assuming too much responsibility. and it was, you know, a spiritual liability issue. I just felt uncomfortable being, you know, put in that position. So I just did a, you know, I just cut all of it off at one point.

And so, you know, I dabbled with mushrooms and some specialty batches that would come my way over the years. But my use drastically tailed off when I became 25. Everything kind of went more towards business and playing music. I was in the music business in New York from 1978 through 87. And then 87 to 89, I was in a real popular band up in Boston. And then I moved out to the San Luis Valley, of all places. I had, when I was 10 years old, my mom and I were at the Safeway in Bellevue, and it was November 67, and I saw the Inquirer cover with snippy the horse and the people, the owners looking down at it and the lurid headline, you know, flying saucers killed my horse. I went, whoa, this, this was a whole new, you know, whole new development in the, in the subject of UFOs.

And I grabbed my mom and I said, you have got to buy this for me. I didn't have any money on me at the time. I was only 10. And I had an argument with her. I, you know, I insisted. She didn't want to do it. And I insisted and I insisted. You know, my parents really hated all those checkout stand, you know, gossip rags and stuff.

So she relented and went ahead and got the article for me or the magazine. And I devoured the article. and I actually kept it for a long time as a kid. I finally lost it, but that's how I first found out about the subject of animal mutilations and the first time I really saw any mention of the San Luis Valley. So, you know, fast forward to 1989 when I move out west from Boston out to Santa Fe, which is where I wanted to move, my girlfriend and I quickly realized that Santa Fe really wasn't what we thought it was going to be. So I had friends that lived up in Crestone, which is a little town, the base of the Songbated Crystal Mountains in the San Luis Valley.

And they said, you know, we got a couple of extra bedrooms. You can have an office and a bedroom space if you want to come up here. And I'd been up there to visit them prior, a few months prior, and I just fell in love with the beautiful, the beauty of the place. It's just jaw dropping. It's gorgeous. So I said, oh, what the hell? You know, maybe I can find a job, you know? So we hitched up the old U-Haul and moved up to the little town of Crestown.

When we got there, there was only 155 people, I think, was the population. And the second day we were there, everybody heard a musician had moved in. So they all showed up unannounced, uninvited at the house to the second night there and have a party and welcome us. That was so cool. That's where I met some of my very best friends in the world. And somebody did whip out a court jar of what they call blue water. And I'll give you your recipe here. You take a nice big fat, fatty bud of the best weeds you can find, stick it in a jar,

fill it up with tequila and psilocybin mushrooms. Give it a good shake. Stick it in the closet in the dark for six months. Bring it out, mash it up, and do shot. Well, take the S off shots, do a shot. Yeah. And I'll tell you this stuff, as soon as that stuff hit me, I had taken my keyboard outside on the porch.

And there was, imagine a sheer 3, 3,500 foot sheer wall of a mountain face sitting there, you know, a mile and a half, two miles going up. And playing huge bass notes and having a, using the songways as an echo unit, bouncing, you know, the massive chords to my 350-watt acoustic amp on the porch, you know, faced at mountains. And then I was playing using the mountains as a,

as an echo chamber. Man, that was a magical night. I'll tell you. So anyway, moving right along. I had known about all the, You know, the hundreds and hundreds of UFO sightings that have been reported in the 60s around the time of Snippy. Snippy happened in the first weekend of September, 1967. And right at the height of the summer of love, when more people were probably tripping on psychedelics than any other time, ever before, since, coincidentally.

And, you know, I had known about the case and all that. but I kind of forgot where I was going with it. Anyway, I didn't think that these things were still going on, you know. But I started hearing rumblings of sidings here, sidings there, and I started asking around about it. And, of course, the old-timers, they didn't want, I knew right away that I couldn't really talk to old-timers there because they looked at me weird and said, you know,

what are you, some sort of, are you one of them weird people we hear about from Questone? And I was, you know, I didn't want to be lumped in with. with any weird people. So I kept my mouth shut and just started jotting down notes. I started writing notes on a calendar, which I swear is the best way to do it. A great way to jog your memory when you look back. And I started seeing these weird, like giant fireworks that would fizzle out. Like you think, was that a meteor?

No, I looked too close. And then you see these things, they kind of, like a dud bottle rocket, you know, some sparks and a light would shoot in an arc. At one point, I had a guy call me and say, Chris, I don't know how to describe what I just saw, but I could have sworn I just watched Tinkerbell crash. That's what these things look like. I called them cheap fireworks, for a lack of a better term. And I just couldn't figure out what it was.

I thought, well, you know, it's got to be an eye. optical illusion. I'm looking at shooting stars. But then one day when there was a one evening, when there was a perfectly overcast sky with no breaks in the clouds, I was up in the foothills off about 150, 200 feet above the valley floor. And I was looking out over the valley, and I saw one of these things, arc right over the trees that followed the line of the creek out into the valley, which has no trees, most of it, except for where there's water flowing into it. And it was, it lit up the tops of the trees. And it was a uniform, you know, overcast sky. So I knew what I had seen was a localized phenomenon, a light phenomenon, probably some

sort of plasma that was electrifying the air. And that solidified in my mind that I was looking at some sort of undefined natural phenomenon. And that was pretty exciting for me when I realized that. Well, fast forward again from, that was about 1990. And fast forward to 92, I was given a New Year's Eve party at my house. I had a whole room full of people, a house full of people, actually, about 30 or 40 people. At this point, we had gained another 100 people in town. So we had a population to about 250 at this point, maybe a little less. And so I'm DJ and the party, we're all dancing. And then, you know, when things kind of cooled down a little bit,

everybody was clustering in groups and, you know, talking and stuff. And I was going around being the host. And I was noticing everybody was talking about a UFO sighting. I was like, this is weird, you know. So I would listen in one group and go in the next room and there would be another group. And they would, you know, coincidentally, it would be talking. and it sounded like they were all talking about the same UFO events. So I talked to him, and it turns out on December 9th,

probably about, I think it was about 9 o'clock, if I remember, 200-foot ovals came down out of the mountains and went out over the valley, followed a path of Spanish Creek out over the valley. And at final count, 18 people in the town had seen this siding. So I brought everybody together in the party and said, you guys realized that you all, you all saw the same thing.

And this was a real event. They said, well, yeah, it was a real event. You know, why would I be talking about it? Yeah. And then somebody chimed in, my friend Charlotte Hires, she goes, oh, that was the same night. They had a cattle mutilation down in Costaia County, just a couple counties south of us.

Well, that was when I kind of started nibbling on the, nibbling on the hook. Was that the first time, Chris, you'd heard of cattle mutilations, aside from the snippy thing back in the end? I had read all the articles that I could find in the 70s during the big waves that went through the Midwest. I knew all about cattle mutilations. I had done quite a bit of research on them,

even up to that point. Not to the extent that I have now where I can write the Bible on the subject, but yeah, I had heard about him. And so that rang a big bell. And I thought, oh, boy, here we go. So I went to the publisher of our local little newspaper, Kis and Lackie, and said, well, kids, you know, I think we have a real news story here. And she goes, well, you know, I'll squeak it in there somewhere.

You know, give me a little 500-page article. And I said, okay, I had two weeks before I had to turn it in. by the time I was done without two weeks, I had enough material to write a book. I unlocked the floodgates of data about strange occurrences that had happened in the San Luis Valley over the past 50 years. And my article was 1,500 pages or words. And it was a front page article. And it was picked up by the Associated Press.

the United Press International, Reuters, Lou Ferris's UFO Clipping Service. I just was inundated with interest and requests for reprints and more information and people wanting to do interviews and TV shows wanting to come talk to me. It was like, what the heck is this? It's like, just breathe on it and you have an instant career or something, you know, if you want to go for it. So, you know, I had to get a bigger mailbox to fit all the correspondence. You know, again, this is pre-internet. So all this stuff is snail mail and phone calls and, you know, long-distance phone calls.

It costs a lot of money where I lived. I lived in one of the most rural areas of America. They didn't get broadcast television until the 80s. Oh, wow. You know, they, there was, it's a whole. collection of subcultures there that is quite unique in America. And, you know, we'll, once you put up that map of the valley again, Ryan, the one with all the saucers. So after that first article, I started doing an exhaustive research and investigation of the valley.

Now, you look at the bottom of the map is the north end of the valley. and see how it's like a football shape, and it goes all the way down. You see the top of the map, it says Taos. That's Taos, New Mexico down there. It's about 140, 145 miles long. At its widest point, it's about 70 miles wide. It's perfectly ringed by mountains. On the middle part there, on the left, you see all the cluster of disks.

That's the Crestone Great Sand Dunes. area, which is pretty much between there and then the slightly smaller cluster above it, that's Blanca Peak. That would be the most, you know, the most sightings, I think, geographically, geologically, rather, would come from that side of the valley over there. Each one of those saucers you're looking at represents five siding events. So you can do the math on that. I investigated about 450 to 500 UFO sightings, separate sightings in a 10-year period.

There were thousands of witnesses. I've made, I don't know how many interviews that I've conducted. I've never tried to count, but it's definitely in the thousands. I put 300,000 miles on my truck in seven or eight, seven years, I think. I spent the next 10 years from 1992 to 2002 doing an exhaustive investigation of unusual events in the valley, which resulted in probably the largest database of unusual occurrences from a single geographic region, which is available if you're interested in on my website. I also investigated Bigfoot sightings.

We had Black Triangle Sightings, which I've never made any of the Black Triangle Sighting logs for some reason. I've got to get David Marla get on his case about that. Three of the 12 Black Triangle Sightings were by county sheriffs, and they all reported them and went on the record, signed affidavits, and signed release forms to use their names. You'll see the footprints there. Those are some of the areas where I investigated Bigfoot sightings, about a dozen. Everything from trooping fairies to strange undulating creatures,

the three-foot-long undulating creatures that are semi-transparent that would go flit along the ground, headless and with a slight tail. unbelievable Native American legends that I researched and tried to get more information on. You'll notice way over on the extreme right, you see Dulce. This is not an accurate map. It's not really to scale. That little sausage should be down right on the border of New Mexico where Dulce should be. But on this map, they kind of flattened it out and elongated it sideways.

So anyway, yeah, that's kind of how I made my bones. I just, you know, I became, for lack of a better description, the unofficial deputy of weirdness in the San Luis Valley. My number was at the dispatch desk of all the county sheriff's offices. And it got to the point where they would just, you know, people would call to report strange lights or dead cows or whatever. And they'd say, hey, just call this number. So I had the county sheriff, the local cattlemen's association, the local papers. I was a go-to guy for letting them know that, you know, letting me know that things were happening. And, of course, we got around that there was a local guy that was willing to come out and look and talk to people.

And prior to that, there had been nobody that they could go to. And so everybody kept quiet. And as soon as people found out that there was somebody that, there was somebody that. that they could bounce their experiences off of boom. I was just inundated with interest, and people just, it was like floodgates opening. At the height of it in 96,

I got 17 phone calls reporting five separate events, UFO events, in a single day. You have an idea of how heavy the activity was. We had activity nightly, and daily on and off for four years from 93 to 97, that time period into 98 was just amazing. Then boom, it would stop, and there would be nothing for two or three months. Then all of a sudden, wham, we get nailed again. So people tell you, oh, it's just people, you know, it's mass hysteria, it's people, you know,

thinking that they see something and they really don't. Well, then why didn't I have reports trickling in all through the time period? periods where I had none. So it's, you know, I really had boots on the ground. I was driving all over the place. I was investigating the mutilations, which my final count was up around 200. My least favorite thing to do in life. Ever since I moved from the valley in 2002, I've made sure it's been to states

or locations that don't have cattle mutilations because I don't want people calling me and compelling me to go out there and smell cadavering. I just can't. I can smell dead bodies from miles away. You know, bears and bloodhounds have nothing on me. I can smell cadavering downwind.

When you've ever been on a dead, you know, case, it's a little bit over-the-heel time-wise. and you have to be the wind shifts and you're all of a sudden inundated with the smell of rotten flesh. You know, there were times that my girlfriend literally would not let me come back, well, come into the house and I got back from the investigation. One time, I actually, she made me burn my clothes. She wouldn't allow the clothes even to come in. Oh, my God.

A number of times I was forced to take a shower, you know, at 7,000, I lived at 8,000. plus feet, you know, take a cold shower with the garden hose outside before I was allowed to come inside. You know, it's not for everybody. Yeah, I'd say so, man. Well, I mean, I want to get to the cattle mutilations, Chris, because I know that's what a lot of people want to hear about, especially since we haven't really covered it on the show. I want to go through some of the theories with you and all that. But before we get there to stalking the herd, to your work with cattle mutilations, I do want to rewind just a little bit back to the UFOs.

Now, you said, you know, just countless reports would come in. You were putting endless miles on your truck going out there, investigating, interviewing, gathering these reports. Are there any of the UFO cases that you actually became a witness to while compiling these reports? Oh, God. I don't know how, man. Yeah. Just with Isidora, my girlfriend, and with Brisa, her daughter, I mean, I had five. You're great of protecting your data, but lots of places could still expose you to identity theft.

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I had a phone tree gone so that people would, you know, in the south end of the valley, would see something going north. They'd call me and say, quick, run outside. It's headed your way. And in the San Luis Valley, you can see from horizon to horizon. If you're out in the middle of the valley, you have all those mountains around you so so it's it's perfect terrain for skywatching because you have so many perfect vantage points an unobstructed view with with you know real easily identifiable features in the mountains where you can you can see exactly where these sightings are taking place that's why you'll see the

where it says Alamosa just north of there is where the UFO watch tower is and that's a perfect location to put up in a surveillance setup which we have done we have a a camera that's there

that's operating on software that's self-discriminating in other words it's with deep learning and And, you know, early, excuse me, rudimental AI, we've been able to develop software that can differentiate between airplanes, birds, insects, car lights. And so we're set up out there at the UFO watch tower. And we have another set of equipment near Crestone, which hasn't been set up, but we're going to coordinate the two locations, ideally. So, yeah, I have had several dozen sightings.

My first sighting event was in 79 and New Paltz where me and five other people witnessed a group of high-flying UFOs that were arranging themselves in geographic shapes that we were making on the ground and the football field. So it was kind of a C-E-4. I mean, we were some sort of apparent communication with these lights in the sky. Half of us were dripping on mushrooms, the other half weren't. Everybody was seeing it. So I mentioned this story to Whitley Strieber. It happened to be the weekend that I think one of the first weekends where he had an event at his cabin up in the same town, New Paltz. He lived outside of town.

He had a little cabin. He would go a weekend cabin. and we were on a book tour together. And he turned around and literally ran the other way from me when I mentioned this to him. Still to this day, I don't know why, he just took off. Interesting. So, yeah, I answered you a question, Ryan, I've seen it all, man.

I've seen every color of orb. I've seen, you know, massive triangular-shaped shadows blocking out. the stars. I've seen a giant green fireball that went all the way up to the sangraise at 3.30 in the morning. It was well below zero. I had broken down. I was trying to walk home and hitchhike and was really in fear of freezing to death. And all of a sudden I heard a crackling noise in my air. It's kind of a static. And this green fireball just shot all the way up the songrace. It was bigger than a full moon. much bigger than a full moon.

It had a slight little tail. It was running perfectly parallel with the tops of the mountains. I watched it travel 100 miles in five or six seconds, maybe. It was really cooking. And I guess it was like one of those green fireballs from the 40s in New Mexico

that prompted the investigation at Los Alamos. What other types have I seen? Weird. I saw this one thing fly over. It looked like the space shuttle, but it didn't have any wings or tail. But it had that shape of the space shuttle. And I got a bunch of four or five reports from other people that saw it. I interviewed a couple about their mutilated bull that happened in 1980.

This is the first actual case that I went out to interview somebody, even though the case was 13 years old. I went out to interview her, and she says, yeah, the night that it, before it happened, to the bull, we were sitting around our dinner table, and we heard this helicopter fly over. And, you know, we thought it was kind of weird because it was really low. And it appeared to land, you know, sonically. They said it seemed to land about a mile and a half south of their house. And so they were at dinner and they thought, the guy's probably taking a leak or something.

No big deal. And so they were finished dinner. And about 20 minutes, half hour later, they heard helicopter fire up. They kind of forgotten about it, you know. And it came back over their house again, except going back the other way. So they all ran outside and it flew over their house.

They said it was one of those old-fashioned, I later found out, U.H. 47, Worley Bird, like you see on the opening scenes of the show MASH, with the external tanks and no real fuselage or anything in terms

of outer skin. And they said it was painted this weird kind of, well, she described it as baby shit yellow. It said, yeah, it was this dirty kind of yellow of mustard yellow color. and we thought, what the heck was he doing out there?

You know, there were no markings on it, no nothing. And so the next morning they went out to kind of check out the area on their ATVs where they thought it landed. And they found their prize seed bowl mutilated. And they noticed that all the flies, there were hundreds of flies that had landed on it. And they were all dead. So they were really paranoid. They didn't really want to get too close to it.

and I could have, I could put up pictures of the bull, but it's pretty gross. Gives me the willies every time I look at it. So I said, well, could you take me out there? You know, as I'm in a sure, come on, let's go. So we got in her truck and we went down there, and there's the cow laying on his back, you know, 13 years later. It was just a pile of bones and hide. and I asked her if she would mind if I took the skull.

And she said, no, no, go ahead and take it. So I took it home and painted it yellow, of course. It's hanging right here on my wall. And so this is January 1993. Okay, I'm writing notes from an event that happened in June of 80. I take the notes home. The next morning, I'm sitting in my underwear, drinking coffee at my little word processor. this is 93, no computer yet.

And I hear this thump, thump, thump, thump, thump sound of a helicopter. And so I look out the window, and I was just flabbergasted. It was a mustard yellow U.H 47 flying right over my house. No way. I got five other witnesses. When I went back to see Isadora for a visit a couple years ago, I asked her, do you remember all those UFO sightings we had? and she goes,

eh, kind of sort of. You know, I never really think about them, but boy, I sure remember that helicopter. I'll tell you, when that happened,

I was hooked, man. That was, that was the last straw. I was dangling on the, dangling on the edge of the, at the end of the fishing line after that one,

that I knew instantly. That was when I was totally convinced that we're dealing with something way more sophisticated, way more earthbound than just simple aliens from another planet, mutilating cattle. That was a huge wake-up call for me. And it is irrevocably altered my thinking ever since. And so that's, in a nutshell, I mean, I could go through and tell you some of the sightings.

My God, I was coming back from Denver recording an album with my band. And we were driving along just outside of Fort Garland, and there's a deep kind of value. next to the road, and flying right alongside us about 50 feet out from the car was this softball size, real roiling red, ruby red light. The silver orbs I would see routinely. I mean, I could sometimes see those daily. That seemed to be the most commonly cited, unusual aerial thing. And they disappear and reappear and jump. many miles at a time sometimes, very ubiquitous to the area. So, yeah, I wouldn't know where to begin.

I've seen, you know, structured craft. Isidore, Brise and I were traveling going down the road one day, and there were these two little hills next to us, and I saw something flashed between the hills. I was in the passenger seat. Isidore was driving. And then right out in front of us, about 150 feet away, 50 feet off the ground, was a miniature,

looked like a miniature science fiction jet, like something out of the jets and so went right out in front of the road. I was in the passenger seat, so I got to watch it, and it went skipping out over the, over the Werfano Valley, towards the backside of the Songwrae. We are east of the Sandwich Valley and the other side of the mountains. And I know what Kenneth Arnold meant now when he said that these things were skipping like saucers,

on a pond, like skipping a rock. Because these things were going, or this object was skipping in the air, almost like when you're reeling in your fishing lure really fast. It jerks every time you're real.

So it was skipping through the air. And it was, what, 12 feet maybe, long, 15, small. And then when I was doing my research for the snippy case, these things were reported routinely on the other side of the valley, the great sand dunes where the snippy case happened,

and they would dive-bomb cars. People would see them go into the mountain and out of the mountain sometimes. They went up to try to find the doorway and they could never find it. They went up all the way up a really arduous hike to get up there, and they did search parties to try to see where it was coming from or these things were coming from. Dozens and dozens of reports in the 60s, of these things. And lo and behold, 1992, Isidore Brise and I get to see one on the other side of the

valley of the mountains from the valley. So that was the closest one that we ever saw. I saw a falling leaf one that came down that seemed to land out near the town dump. While I was with Isidora, and we raced over there to try to find it. And we just couldn't quite get to the area where we figured it went down. We didn't have a four-wheel drive, so we couldn't go bouncing out over the, over the, you know, the semi-era desert to try to find it. So, yeah.

Quite a bit. Again, I've probably forgotten more sightings of most towns of that. Yeah, really. Well, all right, Chris. Well, let's, I guess let's transition to kind of the darker end of all of this. and this is obviously the cattle mutilation phenomenon. Now, so much has happened in the San Luis Valley. I do want to put up an image here of your wonderful trilogy of books.

Let me see if I can get this up here. Oh, it took you out of there. There it is. Yeah, people are interested in my San Luis Valley work. Mysterious Valley was the first book that I wrote. Like I said, I had enough information in two weeks to write a book. Well, that's the book that got written. I was very, very fortunate to land a major publisher.

This went through 10 printings. It sold a lot of books. It was very, very good to me. The next book, Enter the Valley, was supposed to be part of the Mysterious Valley. But the publisher said, we only wanted 70,000 words. You gave us 130. We can do this one or two ways. Either you can take out 60,000 words,

or we can take your pick. So I use that as kind of the basis of, then I fleshed out, enter the valley, which went into more of the history of the valley, some of those strange phenomena and treasure legends, religious miracles, other things, fun things. It's a fun book. Both of those are out of print now,

but you can get them online as an e-book, book or you can get used copies, which are the ebb and flow. Sometimes they're inexpensive. Sometimes they're hundreds of dollars. Secrets of the Mysterious Valley is a compilation of the two in a way, but it also has an extra seven years worth of investigative information. And it has my abduction cases. And it has kind of a investigator's point of view of what it's like to actually go.

through a 10-year period, or well, actually 13-year period, of investigating all these types of events. So it goes more in depth of my opinions, my feelings, what it was like, how it impacted my life. It's more, it's the subheading on there is, which I don't know why it's not in this version, but it's an investigator's journey through the unknown. So it's kind of my story of writing the first two books. And it cherry picks my best cases. And then, of course, stalking the tricksters is one of my attempts at trying to explain how all these, apparently, on the surface, apparently divergent phenomena are actually all potentially connected. everything from crypto creatures to ghosts to UFOs, cattle mutilations, crop circles,

how there's some sort of a causal element that seems to be connecting all these things. And that mechanism is the trickster archetype. And I get into some pretty interesting trickster forms from around the world. It's a good compendium for anyone who's interested in anything that shapeshifts. And in the end, I warn everybody that we're going to have the trickster becoming sentient with artificial intelligence vis-a-vis the Internet, and that the trickster is going to instantly become all-knowing, all-seeing, and it will hide from us. and then slowly the trickster, I guess, you know, historically or academically, you know, they say the trickster has no personality.

It isn't self-aware. It doesn't have an agenda. Well, I think AI is going to give the trickster the technology to develop ascensions, to develop an agenda. Now watch out. when that happens. And so I kind of went out on a bit of a limb by predicting some things in the end there, the last chapter.

And, hey, I wrote it in 2009. So I kind of put my little Nostradamus hat on and it seems to be coming true. Christopher O'Brien's quatrains. I love it. I love it. And then, of course, talking to her, which is the only book that's been written, objectively looking at the calumulation mystery. There it is. That's me in my first case, the mournful moo, as I called it, 60-an-old...

What was that case? It's really bizarre. I was interviewing a guy who lost 49 head in two weeks in 75. or 75. And while I've got the recorder on you here in the recording ring, Emilio Lobato, the ranch's phone rings.

And he goes, oh yeah, uh-huh. Oh, yeah, he's here. And he goes, my nephew just called, you want to go out and see a fresh mutilation? Oh, God. I hadn't seen a real one yet. And so I said, do I?

And so I went zipping out there with him. and there's this cow lying underneath these bushes, and all the other cows are at the other end of the pasture as far away as they can get. Right? And then while I'm there doing my investigation and videotaping and stuff and getting my samples and scraping up this weird yellow gelatinous type material that we found a couple spots on the body and saving it into a little film container. other ranchers, you know, word gets around like wildfire and other ranchers start showing up, right?

So by the time I get to this point where a fellow investigator David Clemens took this shot, there's about seven ranchers there, six ranchers. And so we kind of move away from the body and I move the camera and stuff. And we're standing around talking and all of a sudden, you know, the whole time this one, matriarch cow had slowly been walking over on her own. And she finally gets to the cow. And she goes all around it, sniffing it. And she raises her head in the air and goes, moo, the longest, most mournful moo I've ever heard before since.

And I, you know, in high school, I was on a ranch with 30 head of cattle and been around cows. I branded them, dehorned them, cut their nuts off, you know, dogged them, you know, catted them, did everything to them. I've never heard a cow do that. And so as soon as a cow did that, all the other cows, about 60 head come thundering across the pasture. And they all start moving at this thing with their heads in the air and they're pawing at it. And then they start moving around in a counter-clock. circle around the thing, mooing and paw and moo. I had run out of battery, unfortunately,

because I wanted to take a picture of the line of ranchers lined up with their jaws open going, whoa. And I said, have you ever seen anything or heard anything like this before? And they're saying, not only if we've never seen or heard anything, we didn't even know cows could do this. Yeah. So that was my very first case, you know. Start with a bang.

I don't know. The universe seems to open up around me sometimes. That was a good example of it. The mournful moves. That, you know, I've never heard of anything like that, Chris. Yeah, it was very bizarre. Well, I guess let's kind of dig into the early days of your cattle mutilation investigations, if you don't mind. Because I know as time goes on, obviously as an investigator, you learn more and more. And then, you know, for every step forward, there's,

Two steps back when a new case cuts. Yeah. So I guess I let's take it from there. What was kind of your journey in, you know, this first case that we're seeing this image of you? And as time progressed and more and more cases came to you. What were some of those things you learned? What were some of the patterns? Yeah, if you don't mind maybe getting into a little of that. Well, yeah, before I even went out on my first case here, the first thing I did,

was research the subject. And I wanted to find the people that were out there that could teach me, give me pointers, and share possibly data with. And so the first call I made was to the owner of Snippy the horse, which is the very first internationally known case, which occurred about, I don't know, 50 miles south of where I was living. And Burrell Lewis was there, and he said, yeah, I'd sure, I'll be happy to talk to you. I haven't had anybody come around about this in a while.

And so he told me that I needed to talk to the Texas boys, which turned out to be Tom Adams and Gary Massey. Tom Adams, then for the next six years, seven years, went on to advise. me and teach me how to research is the best researcher that I've ever met. He was one of the early cattle mutilation investigators along with his investigative partner, Gary Massey, from Paris, Texas. And they were traveling all around the United States in the 70s. And Tom became a clearinghouse. What he was to the catamulation mystery in the 70s and 80s, he was what I was in the Valley, in the 90s. He became for the entire country for cattle mutilations. He had the largest database and he spent 100 plus hours on the phone with me, bringing me up to speed and what to look for,

how to look for, how to approach ranchers, how to approach network set up here, you know, who to talk to in the cattlemen's associations and giving me leads of law enforcement sources and instead of me boxes and boxes of files and resource material. And so instantly that was a really fruitful suggestion on the part of Burrell Lewis. The other persons that he mentioned was the guy that lives on the other side of the mountains, David Perkins. And David Perkins, who unfortunately, he just died three weeks ago. He's my dearest friend in the world.

and is he and I talk daily at times, sometimes many times a day. It's going to be a real, real tough road to hoe without him, without question, the smartest, most creative thinker I've ever met. George W. Bush's roommate at Yale. I saw that. That's crazy. What that must have been like. Oh, man, he told me stories.

we could do a whole show on that. But is he a super brilliant guy? I mean, and the best writer I knew, he's written a forward to all of my books. Just a brilliant, brilliant guy. I'm going to miss him terribly. Funny,

do anything to help me. I called him, and I had a five-hour phone call, my first call. We hung up, had dinner, got on the phone again for another couple hours. And it, very fruitful relationship. A super close friend, best friend I ever had.

And then he said, in that TV lady, the girl told me, yeah, you got to check with the TV lady. And I didn't really know who that was. And he said, I think her name is like, ho or something. I'm like, TV lady ho. And so when I was talking with Tom, I said, you know of a TV lady named Ho? And he goes, oh, Linda How, sure. Yeah, you definitely need to talk to her.

She's there in Colorado. And then she was there in Colorado. She had moved to Pennsylvania by that time. So I gave Linda a call. And much to her credit, She, I mean, that woman knows how to interview people. He's probably the best interviewer. Her and Rosemary Ellen Geiley, I always thought we're very, very good interviewers.

Of course, Roe, we lost a couple years ago. Another really close, dear friend of mine. And so I called Linda, and she told me what to do, get a box of colored pencils, don't ask leading questions. you know, just basic investigator interviewing techniques. And over the next five years, every single case I got, Linda, because she was such a clearinghouse to other people, you know, those three people would get phone calls for me.

When I had a new case, I called Tom, David, and Linda. Of course, Linda never gave me credit. She kind of screwed me over in the end. but, you know, I mean, things happen. People have their own way of doing things and stuff. I'll never thank her enough, though, for taking the time to teach me how to interview and some of the techniques that I still use to this day.

So, you know, you've got to imagine now. This is all going on within a month's time. So, you know, I was spending, I was getting very little sleep. I mean, I was catching up. really fast and by the time I had my first case I had already I'd already been turned on to the the mystery pathologist and investigated snippy in 67 who for many years nobody knew who it was and it turns out that it was a hematologist in Denver named

Dr. John Altschiller who was working closely with Linda and so you know I started dovetailing my investigative efforts with with Altzuller. And so that particular case that we're looking at there, I cut samples and sent them to him. And I sent that film container with the strange yellow material that I duct tape shut and then signed my name on it with a Sharpie and sent the samples and then contained it to Altzschilder because it was so fresh,

I could literally send it in the mail, you know, overnight it. And so it got to Altzschilder and he opened. it up, the container of the film canister. And he said, he did all these exhaustive tests to figure out what the material was because it was gone. It had vanished. And he said, the only evidence I have of anything ever being in this container's film. Oh, wow. So, you know, the mystery deepens. And the case that I sent him was one of three cases, I think maybe three or four, or that had indications of high heat, that some sort of lazing instrument

or something hot made the cuts on the animal. So that case is noteworthy just for that, let alone the mournful moo. Yeah. I'm going to put, Chris, I'm going to put some images up, guys. The trigger warning, these might be a little disturbing, but I do want to give the audience a sense of what the impact is on these animals. It's quite astounding, guys.

I should define what the catam mutilation is for the newbie. Please. Yeah, let's do it. These are the images. A cow mutilation is a head of livestock that's found dead for no apparent reason. You don't know how many times I've heard. She was healthy, as you could imagine, last night. And this morning, look at her.

What you're looking at the top there are three pictures of a cow. that if you think a predator did this or a scavenger did this, you are wrong. Normally the upside organs are taking the upside eye, upside ear. The reproductive tract is pulled out like a plug. Male genitalia is gone with perfect excision, usually circular. The udder is gone like you can see on this animal. you see that perfect cut on the belly of that cow. And then you see what appears to be a burn on the back end of the animal.

And the skeptics say, well, it's always the upside mandible that's excised. The jawbone is exposed. The flesh is missing. The tongue and limp system is gone from deep within the throat. Well, here's an example of an animal where the downside mandible. has been excised. You can see this kind of strange stain on the ground. That's not blood.

That's some sort of liquid. The deputy that did the investigation said that there wasn't a single drop of blood anywhere. So that's a good, gives you a good sense of what a classic mute is. The bottom case is my strangest case. This was an animal that was found. in a pristine five inches of fresh snow. There was one drop of blood on the rear hoof, left hoof.

The spine was gone from the skull to the hips. It was taken out in an upwards manner, which is impossible because of where the hide is still located. Right. The heart and liver were left, perfectly excised, left side by side, in the body cavity, almost like it was being displayed, like the organs were being displayed.

The brain was gone with no break in the cranium, and the dura, the thin, fragile film that goes over the brain, in between the brain and the brain case, was left perfectly intact, which is physically impossible to do. The ear was gone. The animal obviously was drained to fluids. It would not rot. It had retarded necrosis.

When I saw it, he had brought it into a heated garage. There was not one smell of cadavering. When I went back a week later, there was no smell of decay. There was a slight medicinal odor that smelled like a musky, like medicine perfume is the only way I can describe it. you had to put your nose pretty close to it to smell it. And I was there at the site on the initial visit for a couple of hours, and I had gotten a little piece of hay on my fleece I was wearing.

And as I was driving back home, I noticed it, and I brushed it off, and I got a slight whiff of that medicine smell. So there weren't many of these molecules present, but the ones that were there were very powerful. I never did get a reading on what that was. These samples went to a veterinary college. It was one of three sets of samples that I've gotten back where the results were inconclusive.

There would no evidence of scavengers or predators, and there was evidence of a sharp cutting instrument that had done these perfect cuts on the animal. And there were cut hair follicles present. That is my litmus test for a high strange case. The normal lovers, Bigfoot here. And if you want to catch a glimpse of me and my fellow monsters 24-7, be sure to tune in to Sundown 96.6 FM.

An online radio station available worldwide on the Apple and Android apps, as well as at sundown-96.com. You can catch spooky music, creepy podcast, Vintage commercials, Nightmare News Broadcast. Come, join us, won't you, my fellow creepsters? Download our apps for uninterrupted, scary access. There's nothing to be afraid of. If you can find cut hair, that was done by a sharp implement,

or a lazy instrument more rarely. When animals tear hide, they tear between the layers of hair. They don't cut the hair. Insects, birds, scavengers cannot cut hair in a straight line. So that's the case, and you find that. That is your indication of a high strange case. High strange, meaning that somebody did that with intelligence to that animal, with tools. So this particular case,

was very unique in that the front leg was gone. It was the only case I ever had where that was the case. The only case with the brain gone. It was also the only case where two separate different reports of spotlights were made, one by a motorist, one by a neighbor. The night this happened, they reported strange lights in the vicinity of where this ranch was. One was a motorist on the highway going by about three miles away. Another was a neighbor that was located about a half a mile away. So this one actually kind of kept me up at night. This was a real strange one.

And, you know, people say, ah, it's all a bunch of bull. You know, you're just mystery mongering. These are mundane predators and kills and scavenger action. any scientist, any doctor, any veterinarian, and they'd come, look at this, would walk away going, holy moly. There's something to do this. All it takes is one, okay.

And this one, you know, I don't know how many, I think I sent out 20 samples total. Only was able to get samples in half my cases, if even that. And this is one of three that came back, as being inconclusive. So, well, three, four. No, I think five total that came back as inconclusive.

So that gives you kind of a thumbnail sketch of what a mutilation is. I went out and investigated around 200 cases. I often make the joke that if the ancient mariner had a dead albatross around his neck, I've got a dead cow around mine. My least favorite thing to do. I already described some of the downside of it. What's really difficult is many of these animals have names. They're often the best breeding stock or the seed bulls, the good animals.

And they really represent a major hit to the rancher that experiences this. And I don't know how many ranches I've heard say. I got 300 some odd cattle, and they could have had any of them, damn it. Why did they have to pick my Betsy or my, you know, my moo-moo or whatever the name was? You know, she was my best breeding cow, and she had at least another calves in her. You know, this is a real financial hit these guys take. Recently in Oregon, the wave which I predicted, by the way. I want to get to that, Chris, the prediction.

but yeah, please go on. There were 200 cases on a single ranch there over a 10-year period. I didn't even know about it. I hadn't heard about it. And when I was approached by a TV show recently covering the Oregon cases, they told me about the rancher and all these cases on top of the other 23 that occurred in the wave. this is in um from 2013 to 2003 this year um when they told me about this year uh when they told me about this uh

i was dumbfounded that's 200 imagine taking the financial hit of 200 had of livestock i had a case uh north of taos 50 head had a case south of taos another 50 plus head Emilio Labato in San Luis, 49, and. We're talking some serious numbers here. So, even though I didn't go out and investigate all of these, I was able to get out on a couple hundred of them. And out of those, I'd say 40. Definitely had something weird about them.

The other 160, you know, because I couldn't get them in to get them tested, because I couldn't get any forensic data on them. you know, you just got to shake your head and go, well, you know, it could be a mutilation, but, you know, it might be scavengers. A lot of the cases are scavengers. I'm the first to admit it. The problem with this whole area of investigation is as soon as the media gets involved

and starts blaring out that cattle are being mutilated, beyond the lookout. And so people with no training, I have no idea what they're looking at. at. See a dead cow. They go out. They check it out. They see mundane scavenger action that looks unusual. And oh my God, the mutilators, they're here, you know. I'm not a veterinary pathologist. I'm no expert, but I've been sort of semi-trained by them. I've worked with a number of veterinarians. I've worked with law enforcement. I've done my due diligence. I've done my due diligence. and become up to speed on any number of medical disciplines, you know, coming up with an amateur's knowledge to at least be informed enough to be able to determine if a case is high

strange or not. And that being the case, out of the 200, 140 are equivocal. I can't come down on either side. Many of them were obvious scavenger action. many were like I said could have been real cases but I couldn't prove it and out of those then 40 of them were perpetrated by someone with intelligence and a tool most of them appeared to be done with a scalpel or sharp cutting instrument out of those 40 7-8 were high really high strange had elements that you could not explain forensically or could not explain scientifically. And over the years, there have been thousands and thousands of these reports all across

the country. We've now had our first cases in Georgia, our first cases in Tennessee, our first cases in northern Florida. We've had, like I said, cases in Oregon. This is mostly an east of the Rocky. phenomenon. There have been cases in Washington, Oregon, British Columbia, and California, but they're rare compared to the Rocky Mountains and the Midwest, where you have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of cases. There's only dozens west of the Rockies.

Now, in 1979, David Perkins wanted to sort of explain why that is, and he came up with a theory that there may be a direct correlation between the amount of above-ground radiation that has been spewed by 100 nuclear tests in the Nevada test site and the prevailing southwesternly winds blowing the radiation into the Rocky Mountain area, Rocky Mountain States, and the Midwest. And so it appears, and anywhere downwind or downstream, anywhere that we utilize uranium, whether it's in missile silos, whether it's in weapons enrichment facilities,

nuclear power plants, you know, uranium mines and mills, places to process uranium. If you go downwind and downstream, but most locations, that's, and in the areas where you have residual effects of radiation in the environment, that's where the areas of highest incidents are for cattle mutilations. And he made a very direct one-to-one correlation. And it seems to have some data and some sticking power in terms of a viable theory. Now, when the Fukushima event happened in April 2011, it's the first thing I said to David was,

you know, we're probably going to get hit by a big cloud of radiation. And sure enough, four days later, a big cloud of radiation did hit, and it split in two. Half of it went down a southern route, and then half went a northern route that hit Oregon, Washington, Northern California. And I said, well, if your radiation theory is correct, we should start seeing cases on the West Coast.

And sure enough, we have had, 220-some-odd-known cases since then, which is the only major wave of catamulation cases ever documented on the West Coast. So there may be something to that particular theory, but there's way more data to refute it. So, you know, people go, what's behind it? And I say, well, if you want to have a debate, just give me the naysay or DeVosy, devil's advocate side of the debate and I'll win every time. Because for all the data that you have to support, there's several very good theories. You know, I have a theory about, you know,

possibly monitoring the cattle herds for a cow disease, which now is that particular theory has been claimed by others because they published first. But, you know, I was thinking about that way back in the early 90s when I first got started because England, was having a case of mad cow disease. And I was wondering if there was going to be a possible relationship or a possible, you know, connection with cattle mutilations. As it turned out, they never had any cattle mutilations over there. But it still, you know, it still could be a viable theory.

Colm Kellerher, the guy that managed the Osloff program, was the one that was monitoring all the research projects that were done in the 40 or so. was the managing director for NIDS, National Institute for Discovery Sciences, and was the, like I said, the chief administrator for the $22 million Osloff program, which was looking at Skinwalker Ranch,

which I was the first investigator to go to, by the way. He wrote a book called Brain Trust, which I recommend highly. It's hard to find, but if he can find a copy, read it because he does a slam dunk, case on establishing a case between mad cow disease and Alzheimer's, number one, and he establishes a link between mag cow disease or Cousfeld-Jacob disease and humans and cattle mutilations. He's a microbiologist. He's an incredibly gifted researcher, a really smart guy,

really admire him, and I recommend his book. I'm one of the few people that's read. it. And one of the few people here recommend and go out and exhaust all efforts to find a copy. It's a very important book. It was put out by Anomalous Press. Patrick Weish and the guys there.

Excellent, excellent book. And I really highly recommend it. He was a co-author of Hunt for the Skinwalker with George Knapp. Co-author of Skinwalkers at the Pentagon with George and Jane Milikotsky. Super nice guy.

doesn't like to talk to me. He's very, very short and abrupt when we talk. I scare him for some reason. For years, I dogged him and the guys that nids to publish and, you know, get a website together so we can see what the hell you guys are doing. What are you guys up to? As it turns out, I had every reason to be suspicious. Yep.

I said, oh, these guys, it's the government, can't you tell? And of course, years later, it turns out, yeah, there was the government. Mufant was in league with the devil. Yep. We always find out. Robert Bigelow. I mean, God, the guy, and now Brandon Fugel. And to a lesser extent, George Fremont.

But, you know, these guys are putting their reputations on the line and spending millions of dollars to try to get to the bottom of this. And that's off to them. I really admire. I really admire their guts. What do you think of Skinwalker Wrench? What are your thoughts on it? Well, you're brutally honest thoughts on that. I got a call in late June, early July 96 by Zach Van Eck.

Zach was the one that wrote the original Desiree article, Desiree News article, the big Santa Fe paper. And he had known of my work through David Perkins. And he called me up and said, look, there's this guy up in Utah. and he's really going through some amazing things. And he really needs somebody like you, an investigator, to talk to, to try to get some perspective or maybe get some reassurance. He's in fear for himself, his family, and his livelihood.

So I immediately called him. And it's Terry Sherman. And he said, well, you know, if you can make it up here, I'd love to show you around. And so I did the 400 plus mile journey the next day. It was the only case that took me outside of the greater San Luis Valley. I drove up there. It was 106 degrees, I think, 105, super hot.

And when I first investigate a case, my first interaction with the primary witness, I keep my mouth shut. I only write a few notes. I don't ask questions unless I really have to. I don't ask, you know, to see things. I don't make demands on the person. I totally let them get comfortable with me as a person. And I spent the entire afternoon with him,

and he did show me some things, which convinced me that there were strange things going on on his ranch, especially the 14-inch impressions in the hard pan of his pasture that would have taken nine tons to make. There were a series of triangular, like landing pod marks or something, that were pressed really deeply into the ground. Those were impressive. Also, he said that these big apertures would open in the sky in front of his ranch,

in front of the ranch house. He said they're about 50, 60 feet up. They'd open up like the iris of a camera, he said. And oftentimes he could look through, and it would be a different time of day. One time he said there was a cloudy day in the Uina Basin, but it was blue sky and bright and shiny through the portal. And he said that invariably these 40-foot,

like triangular-shaped craft would kind of float through really slowly. The aperture would close, and then either the triangle would fly off, or it would sit there for a minute and shoot out these little refrigerator-sized objects, these rectangles that would zip around his ranch. And he said the last time that it had happened about two weeks before, the aperture opened up, and this guy came shooting through, and before he stopped, he had gone through and sheared off the tops of some cottonwood trees. He said, it must have been a rookie. He didn't have the brakes.

Yeah, yeah. So I said, really, where'd that happen? He goes right over there, here. And so we walked over there. And sure enough, there's these broken off branches from the tops of the trees. And, you know, I sold firewood a couple of winners to make money. I mean, I was up logging. And, you know, I've been using fire.

chainsaws all my life. And I can tell when something's been snapped off from brute force and something's been cut. And there's no way he could have gotten up there anyway, unless he had a big cherry picker. So there are the branches on the ground, you know, just they, you could tell that they had been recently alive and they'd just turned brown and died. You know, it's just in July. So there was complete foliage on them. Then it all turned yellow.

So, you know, that and some of the stories, the nine bulls stuffed into a freaking trailer, you know, just head-scratching stuff. I mean, he seemed embarrassed, really, even to tell me. He says, man, if I was sitting there in your shoes listening to me, I wouldn't believe any of this. He says, I know it sounds all crazy and weird, but this stuff's really happened. And when we started waking up with blood all over us and stuff, freaking out, scoop marks and stuff, he said, that's when I really started getting nervous for this, you know, safety of my family. Well, for the next month, well, before I go on, he said, you know, can you help me sell this place to somebody that can maybe study it? That was his wish, because he really felt that there was something worthy of investigation there, but he didn't want to be there.

So I said, yeah, there's two people. This guy, Robert Bigelow or Lawrence Rockefeller. Those are the only two people I can think of. I said, I don't have Rockefeller's number. I can get it. I know somebody that knows him. But Bigelow, all you have to do is call the Institute for, you know, the National Institute for Discovery Sciences in Vegas.

And I think I actually even had his number, and I gave it to him. and then when I got home, I gave him Lawrence's, Lawrence Rockfoller's number. And for the next month, I was on the phone with him almost daily because stuff was still going on up there. He called me one time and said, man, these blue softball things are back. I'm outside with my wife. We're watching this thing fly around. It's checking out my horses. Oh, now it's checking out my wife.

Honey, honey, go ahead and get away from there. get away from there. And I can hear him, you know, yelling at his wife. And he goes, oh, it just went by the, it just went by the light, the light dimmed. And then, oh, the dogs, they're chasing after it. I'm going to have to call you back. I got to go get my dogs. And he hung up.

Now, this is the story in the book, okay? They say, oh, it happened in April, 94 or 5 or something. It didn't. It happened in August of 1996. Because I was on the phone with it. when it happened. I wrote up, I was writing notes as this was going on. And so the next morning he went out, he never did call me back. And so the next morning, evidently, he went out and he found his dogs. He said there were three piles of grease. They were grease piles, was how he

described it, and they'd been killed. And he told me this one, you know, I hadn't heard back from him. So finally, I called him and said, what happened? And he told me, yeah, my dogs got scorched. We got burnt. to death. It looked like, you know, burnt, burnt piles. Like when you burn somebody at the stake, they end up being a pile of grease, you know. Yeah. So Terry was the real deal. I, you know, I really, to this day, I really feel that there's something going on there.

What it is, I don't know. I have no idea. It has really nothing to do with the mainstream UFO phenomenon. hence all the complaints by people saying that, you know, Harry Reid was bilking and Bigelow were bilking the government out of money to chase ghosts. You know, the whole hitchhiker phenomenon. I never had any of that happened from my visit there. Didn't need it. Even if it had happened, I probably wouldn't have noticed, you know.

Oh, there's another dog, man. Yeah. Oh, this one's still a year cigar. You've got a permanent hitchhiker. Yeah, I got permanent hitchhiker. bikers. I have brought them home, but not from that. So,

skin walker is a real deal. Like I said, I really think it's an exciting step forward for the field to get instrumentation on scene. That's why I've done UFO DAP. We're now in, we have

magnetometers and gravitometers and radio frequency spectrum analyzers and triangulated cameras. you know, discriminating software and event tracking, motion detection, motion tracking. Now we're in 14 countries and 66 locations, 18 states. We're quietly spreading across the globe. We're in four continents.

New Zealand, Finland. So it's really exciting to be part of a historic effort to, hardware locations to possibly gain, you know, testable forensic data, scientific data of UFO events and anything that goes bump in the night. Our software that Ron Ulch, our engineer devised, 100,000 lines of code, six years of development. He only charges 90 bucks for it. It's open source.

We don't charge extra for any of the equipment. Everything is at cost. We're not doing it to make money. We're doing it to push the field forward. I am not a euphologist, and I get a little mift if people call me one. I'm way more than that. But if I was just a euphologist,

I would be doing UFO DAP. Yeah, I remember interviewing you about UFO DAP. So I'll link to that article. Yeah, everybody should check it out because with 300 bucks, you can become part of the solution. Absolutely. You know, all this anecdotal information of combing through, siding logs from the 40s and 50s. To me, it's like trying to drive your car forward looking in the rearview mirror. It just won't work.

Let's get some real, real-time data and network with people and be able to have our computers network down the line in the direction that an object is going and alerting them. Our setup will wake you up, send you an email, wake you up, and allow you to be live on, you know, run to your monitor, check out your feed and watch this stuff happen in your neighborhood real time. You know, if you have an unknown event that's discriminated by the software, is not being a bird, an insect, a plane, a helicopter, some sort of, you know, lightning or whatever, if it's a true unknown, you will be alerted and you can get up and be part of the solution right there, then and there. Best wake-up call ever. Yeah. So I'm really proud of UFO DAP.

It's been a 20-year dream that I've had, and meeting Ron was just the best thing that's ever happened to me. Unfortunately, we lost our third partner, Wayne Hollenbeck about three or four years ago. he died of cancer. But, you know, this is the future. It's hard data, you know, hard data acquisition and top-notch academic scientific analysis of data. UFO data, which is another group that was trying to do exactly what UFO DAP has been doing with Alexander Wint and some of the SCU guys. Leslie Keene is on their board.

Mark Rodiger, these guys have, you know, they contacted us and said, look, you know, we really congratulate you on getting all this gear together in the software. How about if we become your analytical arm and when you get data to analyze and we'll jump in and, you know, we'll go ahead and do a whiz-bang, you know, academic scientific job on analyzing the data. So it's the best of both worlds when you sign up. Now, you don't have to give up your data. it's up to you.

But if you want, you know, top-notch scientific appraisal of your data, you know, for free of charge, they'll go ahead and crunch the numbers. So, you know, people say, well, how come I've never heard of you? And it's because I'm too busy, too busy actually doing the work and working with people behind the scenes, getting this stuff, you know, to the point where, We can actually stand proudly before Congress and stand proudly before academia and the scientific community and go, you know, stick this in your data cruncher and, you know, ultimately publish. I mean, I'd love to get published in an optics journal or an aeronautics journal or in nature. Wouldn't that be fun? So the subjects come out of the closet when the New York Times article, the Blumenthal Keene, Holly, what's your name?

When they released that article in December 2017 and created the new modern phase of uphology, it was the best thing it ever happened. I never thought I'd see it happen. We've got a lot of new people in the field that are really wet behind the ears, and they are dying to see something,

experience something. And so every new, you know, After Effects video that comes out, you know, it looks like a Billy Meyer saw, or something they'd see in a 50s movie. Everybody's jumping up and down, going, oh, you look at this UFO.

98%, 99% of UFO images on the internet are fake, or they're misidentified. Natural phenomena, whether it's birds, fireballs, meteors, satellites, airplanes. You know, people forget that when you compress video to put it on YouTube, you create all sorts of artifacts. It's just the nature of the beast. Get up to speed.

Know what you're looking at. Be a part of the solution, not part of the problem. Don't spread around photographs and accounts that can't be verified that have not been analyzed in past muster. Just automatically assume it's not real. Please don't assume it's real and let the naysayers ruin your day. Ruin your own day. It's so hard, Chris, because, like, you know, we were talking off air. I'm no longer one of the younger ones in this field.

And I've made mistakes. I've stumbled. Everyone does. And you learn. Yeah, I did too. And you move on. You progress. But there seems to be today, especially such a lack of, like, critical thinking and

critics, people aren't willing to take criticism any longer. You know, they throw a UFO. video up there and the minute you say that was that was proving a hoax three years ago, they immediately, you know, get defensive and say, well, there's no proof of that. And we're like, yes, there is. Here's the proof. Added to you on a silver platter. And you've just spent 20 minutes digging it up to prove to some hum's goal that you're right and he's wrong. And it's just, I refuse, I refuse to engage anymore. Greg Bishop came up with a perfect t-shirt. Do not engage.

I can't engage with these people. I'm an old guy now. I'm pushing 70. I'm getting up there. I can't get out there in the field and tramp around like I used to. So I'm spending my time wisely, and I'm writing, I'm publishing, I'm working with people behind the scenes. I'm there for anybody that wants help, anybody that wants little guidance.

I'll never turn anybody away. And I've had a lot of people take me up on my offer to, you know, Well, teach me a little bit. Where should I go? Who should I talk to? I want to get involved. I want to be a part of the solution. Well, you know, there's ways to go about it.

And like you were saying, Ryan, the best way is get yourself educated. And, you know, there's no substitute for a good education. Absolutely, man. I'm proof of that. You are, you are. You're living proof. Well, I've got some listener questions for you, Chris. Is that great?

Let's do it. I'm monopolized the conversation so far. It's been pretty... Oh my gosh. No, man. That's what you are here for. Yes, no. You, that's... I knew bringing you on.

I wouldn't have to do much of the legwork. You do it all, man. Let's start with this one. This comes from a few of our Patreon subscribers. They get priority to ask our guest questions. So the first one comes from Patreon subscriber Richard L. and he asks, Chris, what do you think of human mutilation? and what may be causing them.

I know that's a dark road to go down, but it's worth discussing. What do you make of human mutilations? Well, there's a section in my book, Dr. Hurt that talks about this. And, you know, the best way I can approach answering your question is this. Don Eckert, who started UFO magazine with his wife, Vicki,

very, very knowledgeable euphologist. He was a detective, I think a homicide detective in Pennsylvania for many years. And in the 80s, he got very interested in the subject. He had heard rumors of human mutilations, and he wanted to get to the bottom of it and see how much of this was happening, whether the cases he had heard about were true. He spent three years trying to get to the bottom of it, And he said it was the hardest thing he ever tried to do. Said it was obviously there were cases he found and they were totally covered up.

Nobody would talk about it. In fact, he kind of got in trouble for trying to dig into it and access a particular case files and that sort of thing. He found evidence of cases that happened in New Jersey. I think one was found on a roof with saltwater in their lungs. Whoa. There were some hunters in Idaho. You know, I had a case like a teenage girl down at Silver City in New Mexico totally covered up my close sources within the New Mexico State Patrol.

They said, it got mad at me and said, don't you ask me about that. Don't know. No, no, no. Do not go there. And don't even continue. Don't ask anybody else about it. No. So it's the most covered up and secretive type of case in law enforcement, according to Don Eckers.

Who should know? He really put the time in. So, you know, I only had one report, like I said, that I heard about, and I just, it was bang, you know, brick wall. These cases do happen. There's a guy in England, Michael, what's his name, Richard T. Hall. he's found out about an alleged SAS British intelligence

kind of tactical group there's a branch of them unit that goes around and investigates these cases he was able to crack the wall of silence and actually had photographs of a case or two this girl that was horribly

just like the cows it's just awful to think about it Of course, you have the famous Giriparanga reservoir case that G-scope showhorn found out about in the 90s, the guy on the island off of, I think it was San Paulo, Brazil. Evidently, the autopsy photos and the autopsy was leaked. There was extensive photographs of this guy who was missing, you know, the mandible flesh, his tongues, eyes, I was gone. all the upper respiratory organs in heart were taken out a quarter coin-sized hole

on the cook of his elbow. All his lower organs were taken out a hole in his belly button. His genitalia were elongated. Interesting. It must have been a weird ass fucking machine that did that.

Yeah. I don't mean to laugh, but that's just so... Yeah. And the photographs are just, oh, they're just beyond disgusting. Yeah. And so, you know, there's some evidence. There's an unaphoful story of a guy at White Sands that went over a dune and

they heard him scream and they found him and he was mutilated. There's a story that this kind of disinformation agent, Bill English, he's been blamed for a couple of bogus sensationalized cases that don't really aren't real but the one that I think he's most famous for is he said that during the Vietnam War they found a B-52 that had been

set down in the jungle there was no crash through the jungle it was just set down in all 12 however many crew members I think was 10 or 12 were found strapped in their seats mutilated was another one you know there's been

a number of cases. They've supposedly been said to exist, but if they do happen, they're really rare. But with all the thousands of people that disappear every year, maybe they're not leaving them in the pasture. Maybe they are taking people and doing that. I don't believe for a second that there's a nightmare hall below Dulcy, let's put it that way.

But maybe there is somewhere. You know, I just shut up. to think that that could be real. That, you know, maybe some of these people that are missing are being used to gather organs. We know that there's organ gathering going on in parts of the world in Africa, parts of Asia. There's rumors of organ gathering happening in the Ukraine right now. So it's not beyond the realm of reason that these things are happening.

God forbid that they would be routine and happen. routinely. So next question. You got it, man. You got it. Yeah. Let's move on from that one. The Tree of Life at Patreon asks, are you aware, Chris, of any cattle mutes taking place on factory farms? Or is it exclusive to free-range animals? No, this is pretty much, with rare exceptions, a 500 herd or less phenomenon. It generally happens on mom and pop branches. The skeptics say, well, there you go. It's non-professional ranchers

that don't know what they're looking at. Well, they do know what they're looking at. You know, this whole idea of delusion of crowds and mass hysteria and all this. If that's so, then how can we can go months, even years with no cases? Then all of a sudden, boom, we're inundated with cases. What, everybody went crazy one day?

Everybody went delusional one day. And when you have all these cases happening, then everybody, all of a sudden, a switch gets flipped, and everybody's not delusional anymore? No. It's just, you know, common sense says that that's not true. So we don't have a single report, to my knowledge, of a case on a feedlot or on a factory farm.

But why should we? Because we're mutilating one cow a second in this country. We're mutilating them all the time every day. What do you think, you know, you want to start talking about cows and your health and nutrition and, you know, some of the things that you should be aware of about what's lurking in your McDonald's hamburger? I love beef. I still eat beef. I only eat organic, grain, you know, grain-free, grass-fed beef. Local, local beef. I love it. I mean, geez. I like it rare even, you know. I'm just trying to make sure that I don't do the Oprah.

Oh, my God, you know, she had a show on Mad Cow Disease with Howard Lyman, the Mad Cowboy. And she was in Abilene, Texas. And she goes, oh, my God, I'll never have another hamburger again. Next morning, she had a guy at the door. Here's your legal papers, and she got sued for $2 billion by the. largest lobby in this country that you never hear anything about. And that's the beef industry. The beef lobby, I mean, beef is the largest income producer in agriculture. And they have a tremendous amount of power in clout. And God forbid, you should go toe to toe with them. You'll

lose. You know, it took the last Stengel Act when it was passed, you know, it was first devised in the 1890s, to break up the beef industry. And because they didn't have the political will or power to do that, they ended up breaking up the oil industry, the steel industry, and the railroads. And it wasn't until 1912 that it actually passed. But beef is a huge, huge political force in this country. Very, very powerful, very, very persuasive. Yeah. Well, and, you know, something we didn't. really talk about in stalking the herd even is a lot of that book that you lay out is the relationship we have to cattle and you know that that's a whole other part we could talk for hours

about our relationship fascinating so fascinating um you know the whole first first two chapters are very important in the book it it traces our uh our history of in relationship with cattle You know, when cattle started out, they were just a handful of strains of them. And they were called Orocks. They weren't even really modern-day cows. They were wild animals. They were much, much bigger. They could go three, four thousand pounds.

They're 12 feet tall. This is an 8,000-year-old cave painting from Algeria, called it, to Silly Fresco. And what you see in the bottom picture on the right, you just see the front of the fresco, So the herd of cows goes about five times this length all the way back. Obviously, I couldn't fit the whole thing in. So I isolated the scene that's going on at the front. Now, the scene at the front is very interesting. If you look carefully, you'll notice that at the face of the cow,

there's this weird ghost-like figure that's not like the other human figures. it's definitely different. It even looks like it has some sort of implement in its hand, and it appears to be working on the cow. Now, what is that guy in the back? His bottom has worn away, his legs have worn away. In the original photograph, you can kind of see it's still there, but this is 8,000 years old.

What is he doing? It looks like he's mutilating the rear end of the cow. But it's a human. The severed limb is actually from the front leg, is a front leg. And it's interesting that they should prominently display it. And then the figures at the bottom on the extreme right, it's like a little guy is trying to hold the other guy back and the guy in front of him with the big clanking balls.

He's taunting the cows to do something about it. It's like, you don't like it? you know and it's almost like these guys are aiding and abetting a mutilation this is the earliest possible depiction of a mutilation that i have ever come across and i have looked believe me uh this is a fascinating image yeah and you know what we're dealing with here is is humans have taken a the Zabu and the Orock and just a handful of wild bovines. And we've created 940-some-odd breeds of cattle. Now, one of the most pure strains is the sacred Brahma cattle, the white cattle of India.

They are worshipped in that country. Literally, there are nursing homes for cows in India. there are wet nurses, human women, that are hired to suckle baby calves that don't have mothers. Human women suckle cattle in India. I've got a photograph from my book. There's various God and goddess images in the pantheon of ancient traditions, whether it's the minotaur or other bovine images. and, you know, the minnow in civilization in Greece and Rome,

all the ancient civilizations had a relationship with cattle. It was sacred. In the West, it was usually the bull. In the east, it was the cow. And as we go down through history, the relationships starts to change as we're starting to selectively breed in cattle and create breeds that are specialized.

Now we have bullfighting. in the West. We have, I'm wearing a world, world PBR finals hat. If you can stay on the back of a bull for eight seconds, you're one badass cowboy. It's a by far the toughest sport there is. So that's what has developed in the West and the East. They worship cattle. Now, there's millions and millions and millions of sacred Brahma cattle around the world, millions of them. how come I've never been able to find a single case of a Brahma being mutilated? Now, that just in and of itself is a fascinating factoid. I have never stumbled on a case of a Brahma that's been selected and mutilated.

Now, there's never been a mutilation in all the years and cows in India. India is the largest exporter of cattle. Why? Because they don't eat them. They have extra cows that they need to get rid of, so why not make some money? Why not? So I think those first two chapters in my book, all pre-snippy, basically. Snippy is where the mutilation phenomenon became internationally known. So I look at all the pre-snippy cases.

Our earliest documented cases that we can find, or in the sheep herds around, London in 1605 and in the spring of 1606, the winter of 1605 and 1606, right during the early parts of the reign of James I, who was the next, who was the king of England after Queen Elizabeth. And right during that time, he was funding Macbeth being finished up and rehearsing at the Globe Theater. And Guy Fox had just tried to blow up the House of Lords at his coronation, And, of course, what did they do? They hung him until he was almost dead, took him down, cut him open, mutilated him,

and then tore his limbs from him, cut off his head, put his head on a pike outside of the Tower of London, and his limbs were sent around to the corners of the realm as a warning to anybody else that wants to try to blow up the king. And all of a sudden, right when that happened, sheep started getting mutilated all over around the shires in and about of London. Of their sundry conjectures, but most would agreeeth that it tendeth toward fireworks. This is how the quotation in the court records ends.

Hundreds of sheep, in some cases, in others less, with wool and meat left behind, the tallow and inward parts missing of this sundry conjectures Talo was used to make fireworks for anybody who was interested. And we also might have some cases that happened in the Middle Kingdom of Egypt

way back. I don't really out those very much because I haven't been able to find the actual documentation of that. But it's something that's been going on a long time. We had cases in Ireland in early 1800s. in the 1920s, cases in Australia. There was, you know, some cases,

an elk mutilation in 49, Washington State, pig mutilations in 30s and 40s in Missouri. There were some cattle cases in the Snake River Valley in Idaho. So there's evidence in some indication that there were cases that happened in the early days of the cattle industry in this country in the 1880s, 1890s. But again, evidence of that is, you know, I have been able to find it. You know, I've heard stories from ranchers saying, oh, yeah, my great-granddad used to tell my grandpa about that, you know, stuff like that. So we don't really know the extent of the history of these cases, but there's enough to analyze evidence to suggest that they were happening.

Now, obviously, these don't conform to some sort of government monitoring mac out disease. These are probably the core of the phenomenon. I liken it to the UFO phenomenon where you have your core cases that are high strange. It cannot be explained by science that may be primordial, like some sort of primal primordial predator that's out there that's selectively picking the best cows and wolves. And then human cases blossoming around them, possibly to find out why their initial cases happened, or possibly a way to provide subterfuge for those cases and throw investigators off

off track, possibly to determine a variety of things, whether it's looking for oil, having minerals, which there's some evidence to suggest you can determine that through the tongue and milk of cattle. Also possible, as we said, monitoring of spedomatic cow disease or the, you know, the blossoming and, you know, the appearance of Mad Cow. So, you know, there are a variety of explanations that you have to have to attempt to get to the bottom of this. And so as close as I can come to, you know, a position statement, if you will, is there's multiple groups are involved in this. And they all have specific agendas. Some may coincide with one another.

others may diverge. But this is not a one-size-fits-all thing, and it's definitely not sound bite material. It's very difficult to talk about this on, you know, the hundred or so TV shows that I've been on, TV show segments, I should say. But, you know, slowly the word's getting out. I mean, you know, very quietly.

I was on two episodes of Tucker Carlson. I got a lot of flack for my liberal friends for doing it. But, you know, Tucker actually turned out to be a fairly nice guy. He's just an entertainer, basically. He likes to stir the pot up and make a lot of money. But I did his show because I knew a lot of ranchers and a lot of farmers tuned in to Fox News. And when he was at Fox and I did these shows, I felt that, you know, an apolitical subject

that is impacting, you know, a cross-section of the country, you're regardless of, blue states, red states, that sort of thing. You know, some people who call me a bleeding heart liberal. Well, I hope to bleeding heart partisan went through. I've got enough problems with my heart. Anyway, so, you know, I did that. I was funded by Lawrence Rockefeller for two years. A lot of people don't know that.

I was one of four people in the field that were funded. some people have noticed the work that I'm doing and, you know, I want to break my arm by patting myself on the back. But, you know, I think I'm a good poster boy for motivation, for, you know, good technique and for staying out of my own way and not getting a big head about it. Would I like to be more famous? Probably not. I'd like to get more money for what I do. get money. So yeah, some would be nice.

You know, and I'm lucky to be lucky to have some, you know, over the years, some people are real dedicated followers of my work. I'm saying, man, how can I help? You know, and, you know, I've gotten some bequeathals here and there

and, you know, people have ponied up stuff to help me keep going. Because, you know, the more I have, the more time I have, the better job I can do. So now that I'm sending me retired, you know, I'm, you know, and with the internet and just, God, you go through half your day and you haven't accomplished anything because you got to maintain all your feeds and websites. And, you know, I've got a forward due at the end of the week and people want you to write

for them. And I'm helping three people write books right now. And so it really kind of loads up your time. So I am still involved in the field. I'm doing an eight-day shoot for a new show that's been out one year. I can't talk about it. But it's one of the better cases that I've ever heard of. It's in the San Luis Valley and the southern part. We're going to take a boatload of gear, and we're going to shake the tree and see

what shows up and boy we have the potential of really coming up with very interesting stuff everything from 100 foot invisible bipedled creatures

tramping through their trees crushing full-grown trees and some really wild stuff's been reported in the area and it's going to be really interesting

to take a bunch of gear and we can stir up you know careful when you poke that hornet's nest. I was just going to say that San Luis Hornet nest. Yeah, it could be exciting. I'm not afraid.

I've been there and done that. I've experienced pretty much, I've been to some of the most haunted sites in America. I've had hitchhikers follow me home and try to freak me out. I've had Skinwalker be interested. me for a couple days. That's the only explanation I can come up with. I've done some pretty serious investigations on occult cases

which involved powerful brujoes which I will not talk about. Fair enough, man. I shouldn't even have brought it up. You've opened the door now, no. Well, so, you know, it's life's fun.

go ahead, fire me a question. Oh, sure, sure. This is actually, I think this is a good way to wrap it up, actually. This last question here. It actually came from several people because they want to get your thoughts. You've been, you know, you've been doing the cattle mutilation thing. And like you said, you've studied paranormal. You've studied high strangeness, UFOs.

Today's world of UFOs. I kind of want to end with this because we're living. like you said, in a post-2017 sort of New York Times article world. And now, man, it's like, I never, like you said, I never thought I'd see the day where we would once again get a government-funded UFO program, which we have right now with this thing called Arrow. We just had a congressional UFO hearing take place, possibly more to come in the future with the Senate.

it seems like the government is now involved in UFOs more than ever before. Well, they acknowledge that they're involved. Right. So that's kind of what I want to ask you. What do you make of this new uphology that we're getting right now? I mean, it runs the gamut. I mean, there's some people that have been whispering about some ultimatum that's been made, that you better inform your population because by 2027,

there's going to be a reveal by whatever it is that's living alongside us. First of all, I think that we're dealing with something that is altered or crypto terrestrial. It's something that's always been here, probably longer than we have. And the reason why it showed up in 1947 and mass was because we were starting to put it at risk by popping off nuclear weapons. And then they showed up. up. Remember, a lot of those early sightings were large groups of craft.

So it was like a show of force. It's like that initial swarm when you whack a bees' nest. An initial swarm comes out and starts looking around. What are you doing? So, first of all, it's, you know, and if that's the case,

you know, you have to ask, well, where are they? They're either in the mantle of the earth or underwater. Or they could be some sort of dimensional thing, something that's existing alongside us dimensionally. Human senses can only detect a certain small portion of the energetic spectrum. We all know this. There may be much more going on around us than we know. I've seen semi-transparent not quite fully manifest phenomena with my own eyes within feet of me. I know this is a possibility because I've seen it. And 2% of our oceans have been explored. I mean, I, I, I, I,

I don't think it's by accident that the Navy created a Department of Intelligence back in the 1880s, way before any other Department of Intelligence existed. And why Office of Naval Intelligence is probably a real major player in the whole UFO question, because sailors have been seeing these things. It's not by accident that you should have the Nimitz and the Princeton battle group out there off of San Diego be the first publicly acknowledged the big, you know, the clear and go fast and tick that events. That was Navy. Now, these things have been seen, I think, by sailors for a long time. And I think that's one of the reasons why we have this Department of Naval Intelligence.

Now, that being said, the government, you know, has been run by. a bunch of cold warriors that have been paranoid as hell, that Soviets are going to think that we know something they don't know. So it's been used as a device for, counter-espionage. They've been playing footsie with the subjects since the 40s. Now, all those guys are gone. They're very few of them left. And they expect their kids to keep the lie alive.

Well, the kids aren't going to do that. They want to have the conversation out front so that they can control the narrative. So they can lead it by the nose and tell us what to think, why to think, we're here, we're here, and we're in charge, and you're not. So they had to come up with a way to move it to the next level, show that the government knows, acknowledge the actual existence, and then slowly put the clamps down on information. I mean, to me, it's a lot of window dressing. It's the government, you know, being dragged kicking and screaming out into the light, and they have to say, okay, we haven't in line for 70 years. We're dealing with UAPs. UFO.

Oh, no, no, no, we're not talking about those. We're talking about UAPs. Let's rebrand it. That way we don't have to explain. 70 years of data that's been, you know, this is the anecdotal data that's been slowly piling up and. Mufon, you know, Kufos, and all the rest of the groups that have been compiling data. So I think it's just, you know, the government's job is to control us. And that's what governments are about.

So if they want to control the narrative, they want to control the conversation, they've got to acknowledge it. So here we go, boom. We've got the big reveal that the government is now, oh, wow, there's something going on all around us. Oh, okay. Well, we're in charge. You know, we'll take care of it. We'll put up a website so you have a place to call. At first, I didn't think it was real.

I woke up to this blinding light, and I was transported to another place. Pluto TV. Then I heard a voice. Come with me if you want to live. There were thousands of movies and shows, and they were all free. The truth is our scene. It's just so beautiful. On Pluto TV, free streaming of Terminator 2,

inch arrow, the 100 NX files may cause excitement, loss of sleep, and sudden belief in extraterrestrials, no credit cards or alien encounters necessary. Pluto TV, stream now, pay never. If anybody thinks that they're going to get anything concrete out of the government, related to this subject, all we're going to do is tell you what you want to hear, just slowly kind of dribble it out there. I never thought I'd see where we're at happened in my lifetime, but it has happened. And I mean, God, New Yorker magazine, probably the most conservative magazine you could ever want. It did an unjudgmental and non-judgmental story on UFOs.

David Perkins said, I died early and gone to heaven. And then, you know, three months later, he was gone, unfortunately. But so it's unfortunate. But, you know, the government has been lying to us for over 70 years. We are dealing with a very real phenomenon. it is probably connected to a lot of other phenomena. And, you know, the government wants to put blinders on. It's not by accident that when they went up to Skinwalker Ranch,

they were investigating everything but UFOs. You know, that whole awesome program was geared to figure out what was going on on the ground, not in the sky. And so now that we have these TV shows that are actually kind of, of being fairly open about what they're doing and how they're doing it and why they're doing it. And it's well-funded. You know, hats off to Brandon Fugel. I really admire the guy.

And I hope to work with him in the future. This is all good. This is all a very good thing. And, you know, I think it's exciting. It would be very exciting if I was 25 or 20 right now in this day and age coming into this field at this time. man, I would be, damn, if I had a computer back when I was starting out, and I had the network of sources and, you know, in data and information that I have now, God, it would be so much easier.

I had to do things the old-fashioned way, the Dewey Decimal System and libraries I had to drive three hours to get to. You know, it's way easier now, guys. So, you know, don't take it for granted, you know. Use those tools effectively. and if you need some help, I'll whip your ass into shape. I love that, man.

Chris, I honestly, I couldn't think of a better way to end it. I think that's a good way to end this conversation. Is hope for the future of this topic in citizen science hands, I think, is the way to go, especially with what you're doing with UFO Dap and all these other projects. It's awesome. It gives me hope that

we will get some answers and those answers will come from us. Don't expect it from the government ever. It's going to come from people like you. It's going to come from groups like UFO DAP or SCU. And that's kind of where my hope lay in the future of this topic at least. But Christopher O'Brien guys will always be there to whip your ass into shape like he said. There you go. You know, I have to do is ask.

I got my boots cocked and ready. I love it. Because you got to get your buck kicked in this field to really be taking seriously. You do. You got to get those calluses for sure. Well, where can we find everything you're up to, man? Give us your information. Well, I have a website that was unfortunately put out of commission by something or somebody for a while.

It's back up and running. I have my tribute to David Perkins is there as a current article. That's Our Strange Planet.com. It's a strange planet. It's our strange planet.com. All one word, of course. That's my website. There's maps of the valley.

There's my 70 places to go in the valley with a little user interactive pins in there. There's a bunch of articles, a bunch of good stuff. Also, UFODAP. UFodap.com, the UFO Data Act. acquisition project. If you're interested in being part of the team, again, like I said, it can be as low cost as you want. And we're not here to make money. We're here to create, to do good science. So UFODAP.com. And, you know, just kind of keep ears open. Invariably, I'll show up every year on a TV show or two or three and I'm on podcasts all the time.

just keep ears open. I try to change it up, make it interesting, keep it lively. And, you know, there are no problems. There's only solutions that we haven't found yet. So, you know, join me in the quest. I love it.

I love it, man. Chris, this was absolutely fascinating, brother. Thank you for your time, your dedication to these different fields of study. I truly stand on the shoulders of giants, you, man. So I got to thank you for that. Come from you, Ryan. I really do appreciate that. I really do. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for joining me today and Somewhere in the Skies.

All right, Sim Salabam, everybody. I love it. Somewhere in the Skies is produced by Third Kind Productions in association with the Entertainment One Podcast Network.