Somewhere in the Skies - UFOs: Past, Present and Future (w/ Steve Berg, Rob Kristoffersen and Jason McClellan)

Episode Date: March 17, 2025

We are celebrating the 400th episode of the Somewhere in the Skies podcast with an epic podcast panel featuring Steve Berg, Jason McClellan, and Rob Kristoffersen, the hosts of Hi, Strangeness, UFO? UAP? WTF? and Our Strange Skies! We chat all-things UFOs both past, present, and future. Where have we been? What do we miss? Where are we now and where are we going when it comes to the ever-enigmatic topic of UFOs? Subscribe to Hi, Strangeness: https://open.spotify.com/show/5ykU8XusyxPvuWxhR6kOf6 Subscribe to UFO? UAP? WTF?: https://open.spotify.com/show/5UKEHZq659Xxe4CFv8WI2T Follow Rob Kristoffersen: https://www.instagram.com/welcomeufopeople/ Book Ryan on CAMEO at: https://bit.ly/3kwz3DO Patreon: http://www.patreon.com/somewhereskies ByMeACoffee: http://www.buymeacoffee.com/UFxzyzHOaQ PayPal: [e-mail] Discord: https://discord.gg/NTkmuwyB4F Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/ryansprague.bsky.social Twitter: https://twitter.com/SomewhereSkies Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/somewhereskiespod/ Order Ryan’s new book: https://a.co/d/4KNQnM4 Order Ryan’s older book: https://amzn.to/3PmydYC Store: http://tee.pub/lic/ULZAy7IY12U Read Ryan’s articles at: https://medium.com/@ryan-sprague51 Opening Theme Song by Septembryo Copyright © 2025 Ryan Sprague. All rights reserved Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/somewhere-in-the-skies. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You are now Somewhere in the Skies with your host, Ryan Spray. Welcome to the 400th episode of the Somewhere in the Skies podcast. We are here live tonight with three of my favorite UFO podcasters and people in this field and not just colleagues but friends. So with me, I have Rob Christofferson, formerly of the Our Strange Skies podcast and welcome UFO people. I have Jason McClellan from Rogue Planet and UFO, UAP, WTF. And last but certainly not least, we have Steve Burke from high strangeness.

Gentlemen, welcome to the 400th episode of Somewhere in the Skies. Congratulations. Woo, buddy, that's here. That is huge. I did some of us. More, only 4,000 more. No, let you stop. Yeah, yeah.

You know, this is only the beginning. Like, there are other podcasters that have gotten up to what? like 700, like what's, I'm not going to name the one guy, but he's like in the thousands. I think he got a long ways to go. Uh, is what I'm so. Rob, Rob, always the realist, keeping me modest in a 400, Ryan, that's nothing. Yeah, you just finished the advertiser. I get so much crap for it at work.

Yeah. No, I got to thank all three of you for joining me tonight, guys. I know you have busy schedules. We're all in all different time zones. I'm over here. in the UK. So it's going on 8.30. So I got a beer tonight. I don't know what you guys are drinking over where you are, but we're going to celebrate tonight. You guys know me. You know me. I usually have 10 pages of notes for every episode of my podcast going into these things. But I didn't prepare

a damn thing tonight because I knew, I knew that all I had to do is come up with the title for the episode and you guys would take care of the rest. So tonight, I'm calling this episode UFO's past, present, and future. Yes, I stole the title from the Robert Evananger book and the documentary that was, I think at one point titled the same thing, hosted by Rod Serling back in 74. So that's what we're sort of going to be doing tonight, guys. We're going to be talking UFO's past, present, future, where the topic's been, where it is now. and where it's hopefully going in the future or where it is going in the future and everything in between. But I do want to say hello to everyone in the chat.

Again, we are live tonight. I rarely ever do this for a podcast recording, but I thought it'd be fun. Get listeners, regulars involved and everything. So we'll be putting up your questions and comments tonight, guys. But I have talked enough. Let's catch the audience up on each of you guys. don't mind. So let's get the elevator pitches from each of you. What got you interested in this topic we're going to be talking about tonight, UFOs? And what made you do the crazy thing like I did and attempt to do a podcast about it? Rob, you're right next to me on my screen. So why don't you start first, buddy? I've always been interested in weird stuff. It's that upbringing on unsolved mysteries and a lot of things. the other weird and strange shows that were occurring on various TV networks in the 90s.

And just kind of hung around in the background until I had a personal sighting in 2015 at work. I've talked endlessly about it. I just saw a giant big egg at work one day. And it kind of just led me down UFO research. I've been researching this topic for almost 10 years now. And two years after I started that, I had a bunch of friends that were doing podcasts and decided to throw my hat in the ring. And that became our strange skies. And it went on in various forms for about seven years until I decided I didn't want to do it anymore.

And yeah. So I'm the only retired podcaster in this group. Retired but never forgot. Yeah. Living dead of Naples. getting that sun with a mirror thing. Oh, yeah. Yeah, from all that money I made,

from like spending thousands of dollars on out-of-date books and not recouping nearly enough for it, yeah. Robert I always had this contest. He didn't know about it, but we had this unspoken contest. Whenever he would buy a vintage UFO book, I had to try to one-up him and I would try to get an older edition,

a more rare book, one of which is right behind me now. I've got, what is the Operation Trojan Horse by John Ciel. Oh, nice. That's one of my favorites. But that's what this topic is all about. And I mean, the next person I want to talk to, we have been friends for decades and decades now inside and outside of the UFO topic.

And we always, you know, we were like spotters for each other at the gym. We always feel they're accountable. We always, you know, shared the latest news that we would. here we've worked together so much. So I'm going to throw it over to you, buddy, Jason McClellan. Like I said, I have known you for probably over 20 years now at this point when it comes to UFO. So give us as much as you can, buddy, the origin story of how you got interested in this topic, maybe a little bit about some of the work you've done in the past and everything in between. All right. So origin story, Ryan. Yeah. So I always like to say UFOs landed in my lap.

they really did. I didn't have a UFO-specific interest growing up. I did, of course, have a fascination with all things strange. And I grew up in the middle of nowhere. I frequently gazed at the night sky pondering, you know, the mysteries of the universe. I grew up on Star Wars and Star Trek. So it's big, big sci-fi nerd. But UFOs really didn't enter my picture specifically until I was approached by somebody with an offer to form a company all about UFOs and extraterrestrials. I was doing marketing for a medical company, and the owner of that company came in one day and said, you know, I want to start a company all about UFOs. And I said, I've never had this conversation before.

I've never had anybody come in my office and say that. I'm fascinated. Tell me more. And so we got talking, and eventually that's what happened. I transitioned over and helped start a media company focused on UFOs and extraterrestrial. That was the company, Open Minds Production, with that company. It was essentially the only company of its kind. You know, Two the Stars kind of got into that realm,

but we were the only full-fledged, for-profit media company focused solely on UFOs and extraterrestrials. We published an internationally distributed print magazine. We had our website that we updated every day with the latest UFO-related news. We produced the largest annual UFO conference in the world and got that recognized by the Guinness Book of World Records. We had a studio, a production studio in our office. So we would produce our own television, radio, web content. So we started doing a UFO podcast back then and web series and things like that. So that was my real introduction to the world of UFO is getting thrown to the wolves right away.

And I had to get up to speed very quickly because we found ourselves all of a sudden becoming very central to the UFO community as this only entity of its kind. And, you know, we were with our conference and with the magazine, we were dealing and interacting and forming friendships and relationships with all the leading researchers in the UFO field. So these people are coming to our office all the time. Some of them we acquired their archives of decades worth of research. So it was an interesting world to get thrown into. And with the conference, we were having all these people speak at our conference. So, you know, rubbing elbows, having a seat at the big kids' table. as people like to say now, but having conversations with top-ranking government and military

officials, leading UFO researchers, people who have done this their entire lives. It was a very, very fast education just to be thrown into that world of UFOs, deep down all those rabbit holes that go along with it. Absolutely, man. And I will always have you and Maureen and Alejandro and Michael and everyone over at Open Minds to thank for really giving. me. I guess you'd call it my start in this community, if you'd even want to call it that. I mean, you guys were so welcoming to, you know, amateur researchers out there who just wanted to like cut their teeth, write an article, send in any, you know, witness videos or photos that we had. And it was really you guys who let me write some articles for the magazine. And that's really where I

got my start before I started writing books, before I ever podcasted. You know, I would come and volunteer and every year at the UFO Congress backstage and run all the audio and everything. So many amazing. We're out at our parties and see drunk Nick Pope and. Mind you, one beer, one beer Nick Pope would have and he would start spitting out the MOD secrets that everyone has always wanted. all they never tell him. Impersonations, too, when he's drunk, he starts doing voices and, oh, yeah. So, like, you know, there are articles in which they call him, you know, the real life Fox Mulder.

Does he become any more Fox Mulderish like when he's drunk? I need to know this. Maybe in the funnier episodes, like the, uh, Darren Morgan ones or that one where he gets, like, uh, tripping on LSD or whatever. Okay. Yeah, yeah, I'd say that. But no, I mean, Jason and I have been through a lot together. We've, you know, been in an elevator drunk with Georgiosuclos. We have, what else?

We got kicked out of a casino together. Yeah, yeah. We've seen it all. We've almost seen UFO researchers get in a fight. Dolan and James Fox almost went. Oh, man. Oh, brawls and almost brawls. Yeah.

That's amazing. That's what I mean. I need. That's what I missed. No, it's not these days of flame. You're unadulterated, you know, madness. I would have to fight a uphologist. I have not, that's like on my name on my name's on the bucket list. I'm ready to happen.

Maybe somebody will want to fight me after this. I don't. We'll see. I think all four of us are going to have targets on our backs. I think so. I think so. I already do, I'm sure. Before we get to some of the more past reminiscing, which I really want to do with you guys. Steve, I'm going to throw it over to you, buddy.

Now, my first time ever encountering you, my man, was on drunk history when you did the most incredible homage to the Roswell UFO incident. And you cheered the uphologists out there. Literally, literally brought a tear to my eye. And I reached out to you after that and you were so awesome. You came on the show and we started talking and we've been friends ever since. But enough about my perception of all. But, dude, that was so fun. I remember because I was a fan of yours and I was like, oh, wow, really?

Someone wants to know what I think about UFOs? Because like, I don't think I had, I think maybe I was on Great Bishops podcast before that. But like, I had never really been approached about my thoughts on this stuff. And I was, I probably was talking about a thousand miles an hour because I was like, I had like these 30 years of pent up stuff I want to say about UFOs. And like that was kind of my, but like my introduction into the UFO community or whatever. But anyways, like Rob, I was just a kid who loved.

40 on. I had a kid, like, you know, all of it, palmistry, spontaneous, teaming combustion, UFOs, of course. And, you know, I started my podcast because there was an actor strike, and I was not allowed to take a job because I'm in the union. And I'm like, well, this is going to be a long one. It ended up being over a year. And I was like, I'm going to lose my mind if I don't, like, do something. So I was like, I guess I'll start a podcast. And, but truly it was, I love doing it. I'm still like kind of, you know, only a year and a half into it. And just to be able to talk to people about these subjects, you know, at a granular level is so satisfying for me. Because I spent most of my life in the UFO weirdo closet. Because it's not something you

really talk about on like a TV set. Otherwise I'd be like, don't hire the weirdo anymore. Like, so I always kind of like, people knew I liked the stuff, but like not how much time and how many books I read my entire life and still continue to. So yes, I am. deeply passionate, still excited about it, you know? I mean, I'm just like a young kid out there. It's so, it's so contagious, man. I love listening to your show with my morning coffee and, and hearing all about all this 14 stuff because, you know, I'm steeped in UFOs. That's been my life for a long time. But it's, I love when, like, you and Rob will get together on the show and start talking, like, humanoid cases or, you know, you'll have a, you know, someone on like John Tenney and stuff like that.

May I just say I'm so happy Steve started a podcast, Sonia says. Oh, I think Sonia. I know. There you. I love her. Thank you, Sonia. So happy to have you here. The euphologist professional wrestling, J.

L. and Hineken says, love it. I mean, it's the ultimate crossover for you, Ryan. Like, you know, two podcasts coming together right there. They're coming together. Who would each of us be in the wrestling world, guys? Let us know in the chat right now, if you will. memories Jason I want to go back to you for a minute

but we're in UFOs the past in working with with open minds you did work with the stars for a little while as well you obviously started

Roke Planet which has been a huge success too what have been some of your most memorable moments through all of doing these what we could say is professional euphology if we want to use that term. I know you've seen some weird stuff. You've heard some

weird stuff. You've been in rooms with some of these individuals that like a lot of people hold to a lot of acclaim. Others, not so much. But are there any moments that really stick out to you in your past with the uphology that will bring us some laughs or maybe some, I don't know, some tears as well? Well, I mean, it's hard to not immediately think of some of the more ridiculous moments because, of course, there are so many of those. I mentioned, you know, how we had people coming out of the woodwork to, you know, come and visit us at the office and try to get involved somehow, translation, try to get money from us. And, you know, one of those was the, you know, former, former wife and daughter of Phil

Schneider. Phil Schneider. Oh. You know. Wonderful story if you don't know, but you know, publicly claimed that he worked for the U.S. government as part of a contracting group and digging tunnels and underground alien bases and firefights with aliens and claimed he got his hand, fingers blown off by an alien laser gun.

And, you know, he's one of the people, a lot of people like to point to to say, oh, he was, he was silenced, he was executed because of what he saying publicly about aliens and UFOs. The data says something different. It does point to suicide, and that is in line with what we knew about him. But it didn't stop his wife and daughter from trying to sell us corpse photos of Phil Schneider.

Wow. As he's dead, yeah, yeah, really disgusting, really, really sleazy. But, you know, this kind of stuff is pretty common in this field, unfortunately. there's a lot of unfortunate things that happen like that. So that's a more morbid story, but another one involves, you know, Jaime Mosan. Jaime is a Mexican journalist.

Very, very popular in Mexico. And, you know, I had the fortune and pleasure. I mean, Jaime is a wonderfully nice guy. I will say that. He became a friend over the years. And I always tell the story because it sounds more mysterious than it was, but he randomly showed up at my wedding. with Danny Sheehan

just randomly showed up at my wedding and bummed my free drinks and yeah, it was very, very interesting. But Jaime, I did spend a lot of time with, you know, he was a regular speaker at the UFO Congress. He was a crowd favorite. And Open Minds did a lot of work with him. And people might remember the Metapeg creature.

You know, people love talking about non-human biologics and, you know, non-human. Human intelligence, all of this stuff, the claims of David Grush that we have these, you know, non-human biologics. But I've actually handled alien bodies several times during my career, you know, these people that bring forth these alien bodies and have DNA testing and all of these scientists, just like the, you know, recent corpses that we saw paraded in Mexico. You know, I found that many many times before in one of those. They look delicious. I'm not going to know.

tasty. But, you know, he's done this many times before. And one of those creatures, you can see lots of shows did specials on this creature. It was called the Metapac creature. And that's a creature that we had open minds purchased because the owner of the company was very, very much sold on this idea that it was very anomalous. That it had the scientific testing to back up that this thing was alien. So I went to Mexico City and met with Jaime, held this creature in my hand. gave it a little kiss and so forth.

But that turned out to be a poor monkey. But it wasn't the only alien that, I mean, we bought that for many tens of thousands of dollars. Yeah. But at least that's what records show. I don't claim to have that knowledge, but you can find records out there that show that tens of thousands of dollars were spent on that alien creature. But, I mean, also- reductable. It might be for most UFO groups, right?

Because most UFO groups are nonprofit. We were not a nonprofit organization. So, okay. But another, another. This thing with a non-profit. Oh, yeah. There you go. But another funny story related to buying aliens, basically, was he tried to put us in contact

of this woman who was trying to sell a photo of an alien. She had this photo on her phone that showed her with this, like, microscopic alien, not microscopic, but very tiny, standing on the ground. next to her and she's just like, eh, posing with this alien. And I remember Jaime coming to us and trying to sell us that photo. And Maureen Ellsbury

and I looked at this thing, well, you've got to be kidding me. And we very quickly tracked down the phone app that this was just a filter, a thing that you could create an alien standing next to you. We went to a bar and I took a photo

of the alien sitting on the bar with me. It was the same alien. But, you know, unscrupulous individuals are out there, all the time. And, you know, new apps come out all the time and you're just not aware of this stuff. And that was the glory for me being entrenched in the UFO subject day in and day out. It was my full-time job. You know, so I was up to date, up to speed on all of that stuff. So it made, you know, identifying some of this BS, you know, much more easy than it is now when I'm far removed from it.

But, you know, stories like that happened all the time and they were some of the more ridiculous ones. Yeah. We do miss more. Hello to Michael Huntington. Hopefully she'll be watching tonight, knowing Jason's here as well. We miss you, Maureen. We hope you can join us for the 500th episode. That's for sure. She did come visit me here in Scotland.

We tip back some beers and had some good memories for sure. That's awesome. Now, Rob, I want to get to you in just a sec, buddy. But, Jason, these were the more ridiculous things that you basically could prove were hoaxes. And I know that 99% of being a ufologist. Let's be completely honest. It's that 5%, 1% whatever number euthologists pull out of their pocket when it comes to like how much of this is actually legitimate. There seems to be a percentage of this stuff that is actually happening.

Were there any moments in all of that dealing with these people, seeing evidence, going out on active investigations even? Any moments where you were like, holy shit? Like, I can't believe this is my job and I can't believe this might actually be real. Anything like that? Yeah, so, you know, we, thinking about Wendell Stevens' archive was a fascinating thing to go through

because he had probably the largest photo archive that existed at the time. And, you know, he had just binders and binders of printed photos, but also loads and loads of film that wasn't developed that we could look through too. So just spending hours and days and weeks and months, just kind of combing through these photos was fascinating because a lot of them were, this was all film, you know, pre-digital imaging. And just some of these images were UFOs I'd never seen before, really fascinating and difficult

to wrap your head around. know, what those things could be. Some of them were very cheesy, you know, a lot of them were from very popular time in hoaxing UFO photos, and Wendell Stevens was very central to, you know, the Billy Meyer photos and bringing those forward, and he had many books that he published with the Billy Meyer photos, and, you know, I'm very clear on where I stand on the Billy Meyer photos,

which not real. Don't know. Michael Horn's hear that. Be careful. Michael Horn would bust down. his sweat pants and come yell at me. Honestly, what we need more of now. More than ever is

photos of arms wrapped in tinfoil with fake laser guns. We need more of that. Well, here, here, I'll just, I won't stay on the Billy Meyer thing, but I always point to this. You don't have to choose aside. All you have to do is think logically

and listen to Billy's own words. He said that his photos were fake, right? I mean, you don't need to go beyond that. He was caught, and he said, said that, oh, the CIA, I think he blamed the CIA or the FBI, forget which one, which neither makes sense. But the FBI stole his film that he dropped off to be developed and switched it out. They recreated all the photos he took.

They recreated them perfectly and slipped them back in. So the photos he'd been promoting are fake photos, but not because he faked them, because the FBI fake them. Right? Of course. I mean, that's ridiculous. And, you know, people love giving passes to people. Oh, that's just an innocent mistake. Or, you know, he really was, you know, targeted because this stuff is so important.

But I don't know. I don't have that patience for people. I think that past behavior is a good indicator. You know, so it is what it is. Well, artistically speaking, the photographs, I think, are gorgeous. They're some of the best UFO photos. I mean, you see even X-Files poster, right? I mean, they are iconic.

I love those photos. And photos from that time period. Wendell had so many of them, and they are just really cool photos to look at. So that was interesting. But, Brian, in terms of something that's more like, holy shit, this is like, you know, really making me stop and think or making me give more evidence pointing to the reality of something, you know, far stranger, really focused on extraterrestrial life. You know, we tried to insert science more into this discussion at the UFO Congress and bringing in people like. scientists, government officials, military personnel, people that were credentialed who could speak on this topic. And one of those people I was really proud to bring to the Congress was Richard

Hoover from NASA, who essentially started part of their astrobiology program. And Richard Hoover, one of the leading astrobiologists, gave a presentation and plainly said, we've already discovered extraterrestrial life. He had the science to back it up. And these are highly debated research, some of them aren't published in very good journals. That is a red flag that is problematic. But when you have somebody who is a career scientific specialist who started a NASA's Astrobiology program pointing to science and saying, look, based on my knowledge, based on what I know, I'm saying that is proof of extraterrestrial life. That gives you pause, makes you think about it. And certainly deserves more consideration in my mind than like assholes like you and me.

UFO researchers saying, oh, I read something or somebody briefed me or gave me insider information. So trust me, bro. Like, no, I mean, I love hearing from these people. And Richard Hoover was one of those guys. It was amazing being able to spend time with him and have him get on the stage and share that with everybody. Well, and someone like Richard Hoover or, you know, you could even compare him to someone today, like an Avi Lope, who, like, they ask these questions. They get ridiculed. they get laughed at.

They get, you know, everyone comes out of the woodwork to try to prove them wrong. And that's the point. Somebody has to ask the question in order for other scientists to then be like, hmm, let me look at it. Let me look at the data. Let's, let's see. Let's see. So again, yes, I always appreciated that open minds would do that.

I mean, you always had astrophysicists and, you know, former astronauts and people like that at the conference, there was always such a healthy balance. So I truly appreciated that. Rob, I want to move to you, buddy. Now, you are, you're known as, like, the new Jerome Clark. I'm just going to say it, man. Like, you are being my phone, encyclopedia. Come on.

Surrey Clark, Jr. Yeah. So, like, in all of your research, man, like, what, besides seeing an egg-shaped, UFO, which is so appropriate for what's going on in the UFO world today, which we will get to you. Other than your own personal sighting, I know you've had paranormal experiences as well. If you want to talk about that, please feel free. But is there anything in your own research or in our strange skies that you discovered where you were like, wow, like, I'm in deeper than I ever thought I could be? and the world is far stranger than I ever thought.

Yeah, yeah. What in your past with this topic has kept you, you might not be doing the podcast, but you're on my show. You're still talking to fellow UFO researchers, staying up to date on stuff. What has kept you, your curiosity peaked with this topic? So for me, the main reason that I stopped doing the podcast,

is because I have, and this is going to sound like such a BS thing to say, I've figured it out enough for me where I don't need to continue to kind of stress myself out with it because content creation is, it's a hard, hard game to be in. It is not easy to do. It's a grind. It really is because you have to put out stuff on a consistent basis and if the stuff that you're putting out requires a lot of work that goes into it in order to put it out

the returns on investment and it's not even the monetary aspect because i'm not really worried about that but like the mental aspect if i'm not getting anything back from it i just can't do it so for me i got to a point looking into this topic and where my line of thinking went that i figured it out enough to where I can spend a little bit more time exploring it in my own way and maybe come out of it with something different

because I feel like this topic has kind of just spun its wheels for decades now at this point. And I respect all the people that have thrown their names in the hat and there are some people I don't respect that have thrown their names into the ring and such.

Just given how this topic has kind of been exploited by a bunch of military officials that left their jobs and now come forward with wild claims of this, that, this and that. And then they don't tell you anything because NDAs. But for me, I just feel like I connected with it on such a deeper level that I can explore it in different ways. that it doesn't look like UFO research. So, like, these days, I do, like, write, like, on a substack that I have,

I publish, like, a little humanoid story once every week. But I also do, like, fiction stories. And I'm really focused in writing and, you know, the artwork that we're doing with Welcome UFO people. We were supposed to have our first scripting session today, but unfortunately that that fell through, but we're approaching things differently with that. But for me, I think when I think about my own experiences too, I always felt like there was a message that I just wasn't getting. and I feel like I finally got it now. And that's enough to the point where I can explore it in different ways,

in ways that aren't wearing me down, that are rewarding. You'll hear me on other people's podcasts and on the internet just like going off on things that probably wouldn't make sense. But to me, they do. So I'm full on like weirdo crank. at this point. I'm just like, follow me in the lune bin.

I'm there, man. You took the express route, baby. Yeah. Yeah, basically. We got there. We got there. But it's just like, I don't want to be,

and I've had conversations with Steve about this. It's like, I don't think this is a phenomenon that wants you to become obsessed with it, but it can't help make you obsessed about it because it's so nuanced. so unique and it is very individualized even though I don't think most people think it is. I am very much of the mind that all of these encounters that people have are staged for their

benefit or for not their benefit. I don't know, but I don't think that they are a random chance anything. I don't think it's a bunch of people just right place at the right time. I think it is very much a staged event that these people are supposed to witness. And that kind of line of thinking has kind of connected me to more literary topics like magical realism. I think there's a lot to a lot of connection between this phenomenon and magical realism. I also feel that there's, there's just like a lot of ways that I could go with this. But yeah, I just feel that I've got a deeper sense of what it is

and I can explore it in a new and different way. Man, that's so cool. And that's the thing with this topic that I love and I continue to love and I will always love. Is like everyone has their gateway into it, whether it's a personal sighting. It's just a book they picked up or a saw or whatever. It's what you do with it.

And like you're on your own journey. You're satisfied with what the answers you've uncovered. But I'm not there yet. Like maybe Jason's not there yet. And everyone's on their own sort of timeline with all of this stuff, which I think is, is fascinating. You know, I just interviewed Jacques Valet a few days ago. And I mean, you know, there's no getting around it.

The dude is like 83, 84, something like that. And towards the end of the interview, something that really shook me is when he said, I don't think I'm ever going to know the answers to this stuff. And it is so damn refreshing to hear a euphologist, I guess, say that, because he was good friends with J. L. and Heineck. And we all know the story of how, like, I guess kind of sombering or depressing it was when Heineck died. Some of his last words were,

still, they won't tell me. Still, I don't know the answers to this. And he left this world not knowing. And he was very, like, you know, bummed out about that. Where someone like Jacques has accepted someone later in their life who, you know, where none of us are promised another day on this earth.

You know, he's getting to that age where he's really starting to reflect on his life, his work throughout the decades, his personal journey. And to hear him say, like, I don't think I'm ever going to know what UFOs are or aren't. I found that pretty cool. I did. It's what you do with that journey. So, Steve, I'm going to throw it to you, buddy.

Yeah. Like, what keeps you going, man? What in the past of ephology has took it going and doing the show? Greetings, everyone. Ryan Sprague here, host of Somewhere in the Skies. For over seven years and more than 400 episodes, the Summer in the Sky's podcast has always been free to listen to, but it's not free to create. So we offer several ways to help support our efforts and get rewards in return. If you listen to the podcast on Apple, you can click the subscribe button at the top of your Somewhere in the Sky's feed to become a premium Apple subscriber.

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The thing that keeps me going with Uphology is that I am, I have no belief system wrapped into it. I am constantly, I mean, like I'm not trying to sound like high full of them, but I am evolving how I look at this and approach this stuff where I'm very into art, I'm a deep appreciative of art,

I, you know, make my living in the arts. And so I tend to have a more artistic lens when it comes to this stuff. Like I feel like, kind of like what Rob was saying, staged events. I look at a lot of UFOs as theater, which sounds crazy. But I do think there's something to be said

that this stuff feels like a lot of times a display to me that we don't understand. And speaking of Jacques Valais, you know, he always used that great analogy where one, you know, they'll be showing a UFO on a movie screen or whatever. So like, no, he says

like, you know, people can take a UFO experience two different ways. They can go to watch Rambo, or they can be watching Bambi. And he's like, I'm not necessarily concerned with what on screen. I want to go back to the projection booth and find out how the mechanism works. That's projecting it. So I've always thought of that analogy.

That really kind of goes along with what I feel and what excites me about it. But like, I do think there is art, like art in philosophy might end up telling us more about you, those than science. Like I'm just, I love science. I'm a big believer in science, the scientific method. no doubt, but I'm not the science guy. I don't understand it through a scientific lens at all. I just trust that other people's data is correct, I guess.

So using kind of an art lens for me makes it endlessly fascinating, like even taking, like, because I do feel like UFOs and high strangeness in 4Diana, whether people like it or not or no or not, and folklore I would include too, has heavily influenced society and our perceptions of the other and are we alone or what happens to us when we die, all that. stuff, high strangeness and all UFOs and all stuff plays a major role in our lives, even if you're not into it. So I know that sounds really kind of like woo-woo and more philosophical, but that's just

what entertains me. Like, you know, I think it's Jeffrey Krippel who said, you know, when you get into UFOs, you start reading about UFOs for the first years. On the year three, you're reading about Arabian Mystics from 2000 years ago. So for me, it's like, I, UFOs. have led me to learn about fairy culture and, you know, indigenous people's folklore. And all these

stories sound, this narrative is the same. It's just the cultural lens that seems to change from how people experience it. So I like the philosophical artistic approach. It just entertains me of that, you know, endlessly. And I think it's actually more

important UFOs are than people think. Absolutely. I know. I'm like envisioning like this theater troupe in the the wet, hot American summer van going out there and like setting up their stage

and being like, okay, let's go try to do a one man, or like a show just for this one person over here and then they'll tell someone else to come the next time. Right. When you think about like, I mean, Rob's show and Rob is a perfect example because when you

hear, especially in the 60s and 70s, the sheer variance of what people were seeing hopping off these UFOs, it makes you start to think like the ETH, like, wow, so if we're to believe a lot of these stories or even just some, one percent of them, we're being visited by a lot of different looking creatures and a lot of different looking craft. And I mean, sure, it still could, it could be multiple species of aliens coming to visit us. Maybe it was just a part, or the popular place back then, but it also leads me more down a theatrical role where I think this is a lot of it is needer for us for a reason. I don't have any evidence, though.

That's just my weird series. There's an interesting parallel I kind of want to draw here. One of my favorite novels of last year is this book called Glorious Exploits by he's an Irish writer named

Ferdy Lenin. It is a story set during the Peloponnesian War just after the Athenians failed in a conquering, I believe it's Sicily.

Yeah. And there's a bunch of Athenian prisoners of war, and they're just these two out-of-work potters on the island. And they decide that throughout all of this, all of this, like, havoc, all this war, they're going to get together all of these Athenian prisoners and put on a play. And just like, it's a story about, like, the redeeming power of art. And, you know, I think that, you know, a lot of that connects into like this topic, like the way in which it influences art, especially if you look at like UFO imagery like sketches

throughout the decades, you can see certain trends. Like, you know, the David Perkins was always big on this, you know, the idea of the meme. And one of the like,

current kind of UFO memes that we that is still really popular these days is how being beamed up by a UFO before it was a cow being beamed up by a UFO what you would most commonly see in these sketches is kind of a smallish UFO with a transparent dome two aliens inside so like art definitely plays a part it is in it influences you know like the topic influences like art um all throughout so like Like, I think that kind of connects into that human element of how these topics can kind of inspire us in different ways. And just in whether that's like going down a certain path in life, you know, you take on a certain career path after you have like a UFO sighting or something like that. Or you do something that you've never done before.

And I think, you know, part of my belief is that UFOs for certain people do play. a role in that. And it does help them. I joke on my show quite a bit. And I mean, I'm kind of serious when I say it, but I do feel like UFOs and 40 on in general is kind of an emerging art form. If you want it to be. But I think to me, it is like the way, like, y'all talk about it sounds like you're talking about art to me. Right. Like it really does.

Exactly. I know. There's no right or wrong answer. You know, it's your interpretation at this point. We don't know. We don't know. Nobody knows. Yeah, and what is art other than interpretation? Absolutely. I love it, man. Okay. I want to move to present. We're on the present of UFOs. Things have changed a lot.

A lot of people point to 2017, the York Times article. That always seems to be like the lynchpin in the quote unquote new uphology. Rob brought up the issue of the military intelligence officials, things like this. There's no getting around it. It has plagued the topic for a while now. Infiltrated, perhaps, is another word a lot of people would use. And it's been there, like Jason can attest. These sorts of intelligence people have been in this topic since the very beginning.

I mean, there were freaking Russian spies at UFO conventions back in the 50s, in the 60s. Like, they have admitted as such. However, it seems to be like what's going on now. Like we're talking about congressional UFO hearings, former whistle intelligence people coming out, whistleblowers, this that, this that. So, Jason, I want to go back to you, buddy, for UFOs in the present. What do you see happening right now? And what has the past taught you about what we're dealing with right now with this topic?

And yeah, what do you make of uphology going on? Sure, sure. So I'm a big fan of history, and I think, you know, it's important for everybody to have a good grasp of history when they're talking about a topic like this. And if you look at UFO history, it is indeed very cyclical. Things that happen from UFO history are guaranteed to emerge again and again and again. I mean, we're seeing that now on a much more accelerated cycle,

well then has historically been the case. Things are coming around and around all the time that have been there before, been sort of left back in the closet where they belong and reemerged. Seeing a lot of the same problems that have plagued UFO research in the past, being the same problems coming up today.

But as you pointed out, military and the government have always had a role in UFO discourse in that established UFO lore. The government and the military essentially created much of our UFO lore, right? The military essentially created their own story of the military or government covering up UFOs, right? That started with Roswell, with the military itself issuing a press release and then pulling that

press release back. That was sort of the birth of this notion that the government covers up information about UFOs. But leading UFO research groups have always been full of former, but maybe not. former, maybe still current intelligence officials, former military people, government officials. That's always been the case. And now we're in this odd time where the military and the government are the primary drivers of UFO discourse. They're the ones pushing the narrative. And, you know, we have people like Lou Elizondo and these people who still actively work with the government.

You know, we're not clear on all of these people's, you know, affiliations, but a lot of them do have contracts for government work with Space Force and things like that. They are called in as advisors. They are actively, I won't use the term lobbying, but it's essentially lobbying. It's pushing and actively contributing to the language that's being introduced in legislation. And this is, so let me back up and say appearances. Public appearances play a big role in what gets, elevated in UFO discourse, right? We see an important, a seemingly important person say something about UFOs, and that gets taken more credibly or seriously because of that person's perceived importance or their status or their title, whatever it may be. Paul Hellyer was a great example of this.

He was the former Ministry of Defense for Canada, and he made tremendous headlines when he publicly multiple times, and even at conferences and things would go around talking about his public belief or personal belief about UFOs and about the number of beings, the different species of aliens that walk among us here on Earth. All of these things made tremendous headlines because he was the Minister of Defense for Canada. However, he wasn't saying what he was saying based on personal knowledge or things he learned in his official capacity as the Minister of defense for Canada. He was saying things. He read in books written by Timothy Good. He was saying things that friends of his told him. And like a lot of these people in the military and in the government,

they're forming their beliefs and using as the basis for their actions this belief in people they know. Oh, I trust that person because he's got such and such a title. Or I've known him for 10 years and he would never lie or he wouldn't tell me something that's not true. So I'm accepting that as gospel, going forward, adopting that into my personal mindset, and pushing that information out into the world and telling everybody else this is 100% fact because so-and-so told me. That's what we're dealing with right now is a lot of this perceived knowledge, but not actual knowledge. As we already covered, this topic is very personal. It's an individual pursuit.

all of us take in and analyze UFO information differently. We listen to what others say and decide whether we're going to apply that to our personal beliefs or reject that. You know, we weigh the evidence that we're presented on an individual basis. So right now there's a big push at the congressional level, the government, and with a lot of UFO personalities, trying to force ideas into the discussion, into the narrative, and say, this is the reality, when we don't have the facts to back up those claims, to say, this is the reality, this is the gospel that you all must follow, right? Forcing other people to believe a certain way is a big problem in my mind.

UFOs isn't religion. It is primarily individualized beliefs, but that's the thing. It's individualized belief. an organized religion. We don't have one way of thinking that we tell you must believe this way. If not, you're on the wrong side, you're an enemy, you're a

debunker, whatever, let's docks you. Forcing people to believe the way you believe is highly problematic, and that is the primary driver we're seeing in UFO discourse today, and I think that's tremendously alarming.

Beautifully put. Absolutely. Rob, what would you say to combat that this idea of like UFOs becoming a religion. I mean, UFOs have become a religion. We've had we've had

you know, I'm writing a play right now about the heaven's gate. Yeah. I'm speaking with one of the survivors of that. There were survivors that were not there that day when that fateful event happened. And just speaking to this person has just like

changed my entire outlook on like how powerful belief can be and how unbelievably dangerous it can be at times too. But what do you think? Like I know on your show, you never even broached the topic of Elizondo, of David Grush, of any of the government involvement with this topic where other shows did. I did. Like I can fully admit, like I've met Elizondo. He seems like a really nice guy and stuff like that, but there's no denying that I have seen as this topic has gone on, like, people like these intelligence officials getting more and more involved and it becoming like you're either with us or you're against us. So for someone like you, who really took your show in a different, down a different path, I guess, what do you think of where we are today? And where, I don't want to get

to where do you think we should be going yet? That's our. future section. But yeah, what are your observations about uphology right now? I remember when I first really broke into this space online in the, in the UFO community. And there were idiots on the internet that were putting my name on blog posts about people that you can't trust in this field and stuff like that. And we've all been there. Yeah, like, it's, I wear it with a badge of honor. I have always seen in the research that I've done, and I've long since felt that UFOs are a countercultural type of phenomenon. It may have been the government that spearheaded the investigations for a long time, but they were not the only ones. There were a ton of civilian organizations, and I think that's

important to point out. The government did have some of the best files on its hands and some of the best cases that, you know, the civilian groups did get their hands on, but it has always seemed like a countercultural movement. Whether you're, you know, however you feel about the contact ease, they still had a countercultural message, which was cut it with the nukes. It's going to kill us. Yeah, I don't. They were the original. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, that message has always carried through the phenomenon. There have been so many people that have come forward saying that these aliens are telling them not to be more environmentally friendly all the way up to 94 with the aerial school landing and

such. So for me to see it as a purely government promoted thing has always been a bit of a red flag for me. And I'm not going to say that, you know, the government officials that have had experiences are, you know, discounted here. I don't think you can really discount anybody's experiences unless they're outright hoaxing. But it has always felt like this topic has gone from not just a military, like even throughout the 50s, 60, 70s, it was a, like a potpoury of like a potpoury of like, a, like military encounters and people's personal encounters and, you know, that sort of thing to the point where it's like you need to believe these military people. Otherwise, you're very, very bad and I don't like you. And I'm going to slander your name all over the internet. Why you hate America? Yeah. What do you hate America?

Yeah. Seriously. like it went from Ed Walters saying it is un-American for aliens to abduct him to it is un-American not to believe in these people. You know, it's it's so wild to me. That's why I don't like broaching that particular subject because it is very sensitive. It is hard to approach it from a middle of the road kind of thing because like, you know, anybody can look at what I've done. and yeah, I have beliefs on the topics, but normally when I present my cases,

I don't generally throw a ton of belief at it. Like, I have friends who are, who will, like, tack on theories on their podcast, you know, as to what this stuff is. That's not really what I'm about. It's actually kind of boring to me to do that. It is like, unless you, you know, can really take this topic into something,

it's just like, oh, yeah, it's aliens. Oh, yeah, it's interdimensional beings. It's like, explain that, though. Like, you're just, like, tacking it on. I, like, whatever. But, like, to me, and I was, you know, on Steve's podcast last week. And there was an interesting point that Jerome Clark made in an article about these, this one couple's encounter with a UFO and some really strange human. he talked about, I mean, he was wrong and part of it when he said, you know, the youth has a kind of mind to reject technology, even though that's not true. We've embraced technology fullheartedly. Like, you know, kids have tablets and phones and stuff now. So, like, rejecting technology is not it. But his idea and what he was getting at is like, what if at some point the phenomenon,

disappears because of a rejection of technology. And to me, because a lot of the way in which UFOs are covered today is you don't get a lot of, you don't really get a lot of civilian stuff unless you are perusing, like, websites, Mufon's not exactly the most transparent with its data, although it tends to be. It'll give some data to some people, but it doesn't really have a database that's accessible to everybody. Given that it has changed so much,

it's almost as if the phenomenon has... I always think that the phenomenon is kind of abated us a little bit, and that it is either changed or it's no longer interested on us. So in that line of things, I, yeah, it's just I don't like the way things are. And that's fine. I don't have to like the way things are. But if you want to consider this euphology, I think this is a tiny sliver of what uphology can be. it can be better.

Amen. Amen, man. Yeah, and you know, circling back to the whole artistic thing, like if these UFOs or intelligence behind them or source, whatever you want to call it, is trying to communicate with us in an artistic way, they're probably looking at how we're broaching the topic now and being like, oh, I think we severely overestimated these people. they're drawn stick figures

and we're over here paying Picasso so let's let's give them another 2,000 years and we'll come back, we'll come back it's interesting because everyone asks me now like how can we don't hear about close encounter cases anymore or a lot of UFO landings

or even abductions you know if you do believe that those are an actual physical thing and I don't have an answer for that like I could pose theories as Rob said, like, oh, like maybe it was a product of its time. You know, that's something I would often say. And I...

One of the things that I... Yeah, one of the things that I actually said to Steve last week was like, what if the phenomenon has actually become so mundane, we can barely recognize it, and it only plays a small, tiny purpose, in our lives, and that's it. Like, we're done with these grandiose displays. They're getting the small things that they're going to kind of forget about it. But they're going to remember it a little while. And then it's just like, oh, yeah, it happened.

And they'll go on about their day, you know. Did my cat, did my cat just talk? What was? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Oh, man, I love it. I love it. Steve, I'm going to throw it to you and then we're going to head into the future, guys.

But what do you make of uphology today? Yeah. I would say, like, you're kind of the newest to all this. I am. I am. Well, you know, I have long not been super injured. I mean, I was at one time when I was young, I was really all about the military angle and like, you know, they have the secrets.

But now I think the only thing, honestly, I'm sure they have more data. I am not convinced whatsoever that they have recovered craft or really embodies. I mean, that has been put out by the Hal Putoffs and Kit Greens of the world. And no offense to those guys. It may be lovely. I don't trust them at all. And I mean, like, I think they have a lot more data for sure. But I think maybe the thing that they don't want to disclose is that they have no idea what this,

this phenomenon represents or is any better than we do, right? I also think it is important for people to getting into this topic. I have a friend who's recently in the last two years got really into this. And I recommended two books right away, and that was Messengers of Deception by Jacques Valle and Saucs and Coox. I'm like, before you invest too much time in this, you need to know what to watch out for. And, you know, I think these books are so important to read right now. Miragemen I put in there, Project Bata I put in there.

But that's some of the fun, the UFO homework that isn't fun for a lot of people, is to dispel a lot of these UFO myths that have been, like Jason so eloquently said, created by our own government with an agenda. So it's been a long time since I've really cared about what the military or government says about UFOs because it's coming from a point. place of agenda that they're following the orders from someone else. So I, like Rob was sake, I am far more interested in a case from Farmer Joe out in Indiana who has a, you know, a crafts gland in his backyard. Civilian cases to me are, while, you know, many people just

brush them off the side, I think they should be taken just as seriously as anything else. So, and those are the ones that I guess tickle my fancy artistically a little bit more. I just find the political thriller aspect of modern euphology, the most boring genre they could pick. You know, like I miss the weirdo days of the 60s, 70s, and early 80s where it was just the stories are so surreal and abstract and wonderful. And maybe that stuff is still happening today is just not being reported upon. I don't know. But like, I do feel that like UFOs are really kind of boring, at least the moment. mainstream uphology, like people who are so interested in the activism aspect of disclosure,

I'm like, maybe it just seems so boring to me. Like, it's become so political. And it's like, Jason was saying, it's like, if you don't believe what we believe, then you're one of them, you're a debunker. I'm like, that's not what it means. Like, I saw Michael Huntington was on earlier. Like, Michael Huntington loves UFOs, loves UFO culture. But he is not afraid to point out the BS in it.

And I think that's important. And I love Michael for that. And, you know, like, I think sometimes he gets a lot of heat from him. Like, I know he's been, like, approached at UFO conferences and stuff like that. But, like, he's telling the truth. He's, like, because, you know, how Poodov says, you know, Roswell was absolutely real, that's not evidence, you know? And that guy has, you mean, like, he said he infiltrated Scientology to learn more about

Scientology for the CIA. It's like, we cannot trust these people. I'm sorry. So, like, you know, and like, is he interesting? Sure, he's an interesting figure and all this stuff. But like, the government and the military, I do not feel it's the end-all bill. They're not the arbiter of what the truth is behind this stuff. So if you're waiting for the military or the government to tell you what the mystery of UFOs is, good luck.

And Steve, I just want to jump in and add on to that. Because with our discussion of current uphology and what the government and military are saying, it's so bizarre and it goes to exactly what you're saying about not listening to what they're saying because it doesn't matter. It doesn't mean anything because everything these elected officials are saying, the ones who are the loudest and out there giving interviews about UFOs and starting these committees and everything are getting everything they know about UFOs from UFO researchers. Absolutely. So it's just this circle going around and around and people are celebrating and thinking this is great.

Aha, we have, you know, these government and military people saying this, and that means it's true. No, it doesn't mean it's true. It means you got somebody to listen to you and regurgitate the established law that's been there all the time. This isn't anything new. They're not, you know, saying anything or verifying anything. They're just regurgitating. 100%.

And this disclosure kind of movements have happened before, right? And while this one's definitely, you know, because of social media, I think, has blown up into a big, kind of a big story that mainstream media is covering from time to time. That doesn't make it more valid to me at all. Like, I do not think it's going to go anywhere. But, I mean, like, I'm sure I'd love to be wrong, but like, I just feel like I'm not going to be on this one. Yeah, I think sort of a way to sum up for me personally right now, having done. now 400 episodes of the podcast, hundreds of other, you know, and I guess auxiliary sort of shows and writing the books, all of that stuff that I've done in this topic. What I think we're missing now in UFOs in 2025 is the UFOs.

Yes. Like, where are they? Literally. Like, why am I, why are people not reporting them as much? why are we not hearing about the more outlandish claims? And I don't mean that in a disparaging way. I just mean, like, UFOs used to be super weird, and that's what we've loved about it.

But where are the UFOs today? It's all about getting the Disclosure Act passed or starting a task force to see who shot JFK. Like, it's, I understand. Or here, we don't have any UFO. So here's a balloon, a drone, and an airplane. And trust me, they're not balloons, drones, and airplanes. They're just UFOs that look like drones, UFOs.

Exactly, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we've made UFOs so dumb. We've made UFOs so dumb. Yeah, I agree. We've sucked at any intelligence there was. The interesting stuff, the mystery, and, like, what we, you know, like, we're all the same age-ish, you know.

And, like, I think what we probably love about UFOs might be a little bit different, but like, there's a core love that we all have. I love the UFO. And when I say I love the UFO, I mean, I like the culture, the ephemera, the art that's inspired from it. And all that cool stuff has just kind of been sucked out a little bit. And I'm not trying to saw an old man complaining out. But like, it's the running, you know, you can look for yourself. It is wrapped up, like Ryan was saying, in Disclosure Acts. And that's not what, we're not talking about the phenomenon, actually. We're talking about political strides. And that to me is like, it's really boring.

Because in terms of politics, there's bigger things going on. There's bigger things going on in the world. Like, activate that sort of thing. But in the meantime, like, you don't have to focus your energy

on trying to get some bill passed or wondering what these former intelligence people think. Like, maybe that's interesting, but just go outside. Like, look up in the sky. Go to a UFO conference.

Talk to someone who's seen a UFO. Share your stories with one another. Yeah, and like Rob was saying, like the military government angle should and definitely can be a slice of ufology. Yeah, absolutely. But it doesn't need to be the whole eye. It's like the whole, like things were definitely more interesting in the past decades because there were so many like little sub areas that people were looking into and studying and known for and writing about. And that's when it was so interesting is that you had some like really interesting curious minds who were coming from different angles. And I think that's, I think diversity and everything is wonderful.

Yeah, yeah. It seems, Steve, that the scales have sort of tipped right now. And I'm hoping that the weight starts to go back towards more of the weird stuff. I mean, and like that kind of brings us to sort of now in the future. Like, yeah, we've got some intelligence people saying that they're like summoning UFO psychically. That's cool. That's woo-woo. That's weird. Like, I'm all for that. But like, the fact that it's all these former intelligence people. worries me too. So I don't know. And I don't want this show to sound like, you know, we're four white dudes here complaining about the state of uphology. Like, yeah, yeah, that's a little bit of what we're doing. But we also, like you said, we all love this topic for so many reasons. It's because we care. Yeah. Yeah. It's because we care. Exactly, man. Love that. If there's one controversial, I'm going to thing I'm going to say this entire thing and one thing that I think a lot of people

need to understand and I'm not I'm not going to say this is the be all end all but largely the UFO topic has been a white man's game and that's going to upset some people and what I mean by that is I'm not saying that you know I'm discounting what other people are saying but what

I'm saying is largely this has been a topic around white people so like one thing that I think needs to be understood here is like there's a cultural element that is sorely lacking in looking at

other cultures and how they view this topic. And I've always long since felt that way. And you know, I've dedicated some episodes and stuff to it, but while it is a military topic right now, it is also vastly

you know, very single race-minded. And I will say before we go to the future, you're talking about the current and some of the problems with current discourse is the people who are now the spokespeople for UFOs, let's say, the ones doing all of the interviews and essentially leading the narrative that is currently used for UFOs. We've gotten back to that sorely incorrect notion that UFOs is just a thing in the United States, right? We're very us-centric here. And that hasn't been the case. And anybody who spent any time doing real UFO research would know about just the wealth of cases and information from around the globe. And we have people, you know, like Lou and these others who, you know, present this as like it's a new thing.

Like, oh, we're discovering now that, you know, there are things happening around the world. And we're just starting to bring people on board from other nations to collaborate. on this. That's all been done before. Other countries have their own UFO investigation groups. Other governments have and do investigate UFOs, have released countless documentation about their investigations. Like, this isn't a new thing, but it's being presented as new. So we start back over. Again, UFOs are cyclical. UFO history is cyclical. All these things from the past come back into our present discussion. And that's happened again, just one of these ridiculous things. things, this notion that, oh, well, why don't we hear about UFOs and other parts of the world?

Or why do we only hear about them in America? That's not the case. If you bother to pay attention or look at history, that is absolutely not the case. The United States is a small sliver in the UFO pie. Absolutely, man. Yep, yep. Yeah, I mean, look at Rob's show. Look at Steve's show.

Like, hear cases from throughout the world. I mean, if you look at, like, groups like APRO back in the day, they had, uh, representatives from all over the world. We're talking Brazil, Argentina, countries in Europe, countries in Africa. Like, it is a global topic, and yet it never feels like it is treated

like a global topic. Agreed. Yeah. James Fox documentaries cover UFO events throughout the world. Yeah, good point. Thank you guys for the comments. I know we haven't been getting to them. I knew this had happened with a panel discussion, but we'll get to a little, a few of those towards the end here, guys.

Okay. Anything else before we move on to the future, guys? No, I'm excited to race to the future. Let's go. Let's race. Let's go into the future. Okay. Where do we want it to go?

I mean, we spent the last, you know, I don't know, 30 minutes talking about where we've been, where we are. But where do you hope this topic goes? Do you hope it goes further? Have we reached? you know, the fever pitch of mundane, mundity, is that a word when it comes to this topic? Or do you think we're going to enter a new era of weirdness?

Or yeah, yeah, what are your hopes, your wishes, your aspirations with this topic? Rob, let's start with you, man. I think for a large, large part, even up until now, I kind of feel like it's been coasting from the 80s all the way to now with just like disinformation, disinformation, disinformation, people coming forward saying the government's lying to you, blah, blah, blah, blah. I would hope for a level of nuance to return to this topic so that, like, you get a full picture of it because you're, I don't think people are getting a full

picture of what this topic is. What I mean by that is, in 10 years of research, going back and reading old issues of like the April Bulletin, Flying Saucer Review, all of the magazines and zines that were dedicated to this topic and the books and stuff like that. It is a very nuanced topic. It is seen through different cultural views throughout the world. A good example of this is in certain countries in southern Africa. They do not view these phenomenon as aliens from another planet.

They view them as ancestral ghosts. You know, it's very different for a lot of different people. There was actually a paper that I remember finding on John Max's website about, it seemed like they were just starting to do that. And I think some of it made its way into passport to the cosmos. But like looking at like all these other cultures, I just really hope the topic becomes more nuance. It becomes more open.

and we're, you know, being treated to a bunch of different experiences in cases that, like, provide a depth to this topic that I think it is just sorely lacking right now just because of where it is in, where it is placed in this culture right now as a political topic. It needs to go beyond that because it is a cultural topic. It is like, you can't ignore the politics of it, but if it just goes beyond that, that would be great. So if anything, yeah, just a lot more nuance and a lot more openness when it comes to this topic. I like that. I like that. Steve, let's move to you, buddy. What do you hope for the future of uphology if there is a future? Yeah, well, I think there will be.

I think there will always be some aspect of it that throughout. But, like, I mean, it sounds like I'm a Midwest guy, but so it's going to be very fitting. But, like, I hope UFOs become folksy again. And, like, more smaller communities, I feel like, destroy the big UFO organizations and the smaller little, like, localized group ones, like a one in northern Ohio or something like that, these small groups that are looking locally and what's around them. I'm a big, like, believer in the idea of, like, if you're into this stuff, weird stuff, 40 on it. like you don't need to always like research things that are far away and dream about going to them. There is weird stuff all around you. There is just a weird history of every state, of every country, like if there just is. And whether or not it's folklore, that doesn't matter to me.

But I feel like doing these small boots on the ground, talking to local people. And I think if these, like, you could network these like little local groups and they could discuss together, we might really get somewhere or at least start asking better. questions. Because like we keep saying like, what's going on? UFOs really? We don't hear much about it. I think that's because everything's become, you know, not to use a capitalistic analogy, but like it's been so corporatized

and so gatekeeper. Like you said, that trust me, bro, I know, I know. In two months I can release the information. It's so big and corporatized and exploited, I think. And I would love it to be more,

like, I would join a group of like Eastern Nebraska UFO lovers. We don't have to be conversations, but we get together get Chinese food once a month. We talk about what's going on locally. That, to me,

feels like it's so much more productive than writing my, you know, local senator, a two-page letter and why they should disclose UFOs. If I'm going to write my center, it's going to be about much more pressing issues.

Yeah. So that's, I just, I don't think people need to get up in arms and like, and also I feel, like, I feel like UFOs also, like I used to talk to people, we would have different ideas about what it meant and, you know, theorize and, you know, do thought experiments. And it wasn't this,

like, antagonizing. Like, it's so like, if you don't believe what I believe, then you're a skeptic or a debunker. And that is so counterproductive to me. Like, we can all, even if all board has completely different viewpoints on the stuff, this is such a nice conversation. Where, you know, like, and it is, and I'm learning a lot just by having this conversation. And I I think UFOs are a great lens to learn to ask bigger questions about life. And I think if people looked at like that and not took it so personally and seriously, we might be better off. It might be more fun, too.

I think UFO should be fun, first and foremost. I think they should, if you're not having fun with UFOs, what are you doing? Honestly, and to add on to that. In UFO with fun, please. It is. Yeah, to just add on to that, I think this topic, like when UFOs are wholly embraced, they help us to ask more important and better questions of ourselves,

more than it does about anything else out there. Like, it does help us to, like, really look in, look in at who we are. And, like, man, I don't like what I'm looking at it. Yeah. You know, yeah, man. I love you guys. And because we all love UFOs, we're, talking right now, and I consider you all friends, and that is a beautiful thing to me.

Totally. Yeah. Like everyone, you know, says they want disclosure. They want to know that the aliens are out there or the non-human intelligence is out there. So, okay, let's say we get to that point. We find out what UFOs are. There's probably a thousand different reasons for all of them. But let's just say, like, we get the answers.

Okay. Like, now what? Like, there's a reason we all. want to know the answers to UFOs and those reasons are going to change like all of you have said. I know I sound redundant. There's a reason that we all want to know and that's very personal. Like we all supposedly get one chance at this life, at least in these vessels, as it were. So like, we want to know. We want the answers to all the big questions. Why are we here? Are we alone? that let's say we get the answer to one of those questions,

are we alone? There's a reason we're asking that. And it's not just to know, are we alone or not? Like, I want to know that we're not alone so that I can know that it's possible to like get along with another species out there when our own species can't get along with one another

for various different reasons. So, yeah, I think Rob's right. Like, this topic has always put a mirror back on ourselves, and I've always appreciated that about it. And I feel like we've sort of like dropped that mirror, and we're kind of staring into a void right now in this topic. And I just want those days back, where we can look in the mirror and find ourselves in this topic,

in this mystery, and find a purpose. Like, that's why I love being in this topic. Like, it gives me personal purpose in my life. Yeah. You know, I do other things. We all do other things with our time and with our loved ones and with, you know, friends, family and everything else. But at the end of the day. And I'm retired.

So, you know. You're retired. You're in the beach, baby. The UFO. You know. But, yeah, like, I guess my, this is my long-winded way of saying, like, we all love this topic. I know we've criticized it in many ways tonight. But like Steve said, we're doing it because we love it.

We're not trying to change anyone's minds. We're not here to say, you're wrong. We're right. We're here to say, like, let's get back to the UFOs in euphology so we can have conversations like this. So I guess that's my way. Maybe some clown pants, too. Can we get some clown pants?

Can we get some clown pants? Where's that sand down con? I like that one too with the microphone, Rob. I love that case. Jason, let's get to you, buddy. The future of uphology. What are you looking forward to, if anything? And where do you personally want to go with the topic moving forward?

Yeah, sure. So, I mean, I guess back to my point of UFOs being cyclical, I definitely see that happening, right? I don't think there's any way we're going to get around that. Humans will always be humans. those same things that have been in UFO history are going to come around many times again. But I think for me, and I know I sound like a broken record at this point, but the way we talk about UFOs is fundamentally flawed. It really is. UFO discourse is broken. And it has to completely change

if we want anything with UFO research to change. Because pretty much everything we hear in conversations about UFOs is lore based. It's based on established lore. And even we as researchers and the leading UFO researchers are completely guilty of this. And that is relying on lore, right? We don't ever go back and fact check, you know, the authors of books that we've read or researchers we've talked to. Everybody just relies on lore that's been established and points to it and says, oh, well, well, we know this, so therefore this.

Well, how do we know that? Right. I mean, it's a big problem that we just keep regurgitating this information. that we've been given because we as researchers and people communicating about this topic to the public are being very irresponsible, just regurgitating, right? Because that becomes more in line with indoctrination rather than education. We're doing, I like to say, lore-based indoctrination over fact-based education. And we're not going to get anywhere with that mindset, right? We're not trying to please people. We're not trying to, you know, make people feel good.

we're after the truth, wherever that may lead. And as we said, I mean, this is an individual pursuit for everybody. And I hate to break it to people, there are no grand UFO answers, right? You're not going to find something that says, aha, I now have the answer to UFOs. Because UFOs, as a topic itself, is a flawed concept. There is no UFO phenomenon, right? We group these things together because it's convenient, or, you know, for whatever reason.

And now calling them UAP makes it even more ridiculous because we're essentially talking about all strange things, right? So that just opens it up to Bigfoot, right? Bigfoot is a UAP, right? Because he's anomalous, right? We took it away from the sky and now it's just anomalous. So Bigfoot is a UAP, unidentified anomalous phenomena. It's become ridiculous, right? So, I mean, the topic itself is kind of become a joke.

And we have to move away from that. we have to reframe how we how we converse about this topic. Even at the congressional level and everything you hear on the news and when UFO, you know, spokespeople go on the news and do a UFO segment, they're restating these false claims or flawed rhetoric that keeps getting, you know, stated over and over like the big government lie, right? The government's lied to you. You're being lied to.

Well, what is that lie? We rarely hear what that lie is. it's not articulated, but what the premise is is that the government has told us that UFOs don't exist when actually they do. And that's completely false because the government repeatedly states UFOs are real. Even their most recent reports say UFOs are real. So in these conversation pieces saying, oh, the government lies to you, they tell you UFOs don't exist, that is 100% false. And if we as UFO researchers and people communicating to the public can't even get our facts straight and we're continuing to to share and push false narratives, false information, that's on us that

UFOs are in the toilet, right? We all have to be better, and it has to be a group effort, but, you know, sorry to be pessimistic. I don't see that happening because we're all humans, right? And people have their own motivations for doing what they do. And right now we're seeing lots of attention-hungry people, including Congress members, sort of using UFOs as a game for their own personal attention. So, you know, that that is, again, adding, adding more stigma and ridicule to the topic rather than lessening it. So we have to get away from all of that. If we want anything to improve, we have to embrace and communicate this idea to people that it is an individual pursuit. We all come up with our own determinations about this. We don't have smoking gun evidence

to prove that we have recovered alien bodies and crash saucers and all this. No, of course not. As objective researchers, we have to entertain all possibilities, right? That's what we do. We entertain all possibilities, but we still follow the facts. We still follow the evidence we have. And when we don't have that, we have to communicate responsibly. We have to point to our sources and say, well, according to so-and-so, or this person says that allegedly this happens, but we don't see any of that. And any of these news stories we see on the TV of these people talking about UFOs. They're stating things as absolute fact and telling people, you have to believe this, because this person said so, and that means it's real, and anything else is a complete big lie. We just, our communication

is broken on this. We need to be more honest and view UFOs for what they are. And that is a whole lot of different things that we don't understand, enjoy the mystery of it, try to figure it out if we can and enjoy the ride. And if you're not, I don't know what you're doing. But I agree with you, Ryan. We need to get back to community. That's one of the big things that drew me into the UFO subject. We talked about the conference at the beginning. UFO conferences used to be so much fun. They did. They were a welcoming atmosphere. You could go. And of course, nobody shared the same beliefs because we all have different beliefs. Nobody believes the same exact way about everything related to UFOs. We're all individual people. We have our own individual ideas,

but we have this shared love for this fascinating and weird topic. And at conferences we could get together and we were just part of that community. We were all weird together. And that was magical. We would see people like Stanton Friedman and John Alexander, you know, debate each other on stage. And people in the audience thought, oh, this is very tenuous and, oh, uncomfortable. And they don't like each other. But right after they went over to the casino and had lunch together. I mean, they were all friends, right? We were all friends and researchers and colleagues. That's how it worked. But now everything is so divisive and people want to outdo each other. It's ridiculous. I want to get back to that community and ultimately just communicate to people.

You do you. This is your life, your pursuit, your interest. You do it. You don't need the government. You don't need UFO researchers. You just need you. UFOs are everywhere. Go outside, spend some time, and you'll see it.

You don't need to pray to them with Stephen Greer and have them think they're going to come flash their headlights at you. I mean, that's ridiculous. Just go outside. Look in the sky. The sky is absolutely littered. I've seen countless UFOs. And I think other people can too. You don't need to pray or do any special thing or pay thousands of dollars to some scam artists to show you how.

UFOs are everywhere. People don't control UFOs. So you don't need anybody else. You just need you. If you want to use other people for their resources, for their information, bounce ideas off each other, and get back to just philosophy. Because that's what a lot of this is, right? Just talking about possibilities, ideas, these concepts that we can just bounce off each other. kind of think about this weird reality we live in. And the last thing I'll say is for the future

of uphology, I really hope this whole charge for disclosure goes away because disclosure to me is an absolute non-issue. And it always has been. You're not going to get any more from the government than you already have. And the government has told you time and time and time again, the same answer you're going to get. Yes, UFOs are real. There are a lot of different things Most can be explained as mundane objects. Some can't. There you go. That's disclosure. You've received it many times over. You're not getting anything else. So, you know, we keep saying things under the guise of disclosure. But ultimately, people are waiting to have their desired beliefs, you know, echoed. And that's what we're saying right now with a lot of the Congress members just saying these things. And people are saying, yay, vindicated, validated, because they're saying what I want to hear. Well, they're not. telling you that, or providing you any proof for these things, they're just echoing what you want to hear. And that's great. That does it for some people, not for me. But ultimately, disclosure isn't a thing. You shouldn't hope for it. It's already happened. Move along. We don't need it.

We don't need it. All right. I love that. Yeah. I'll tattoo that in my back. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. That's going to be a big tattoo. Exactly. So in other words, yeah. In other words, we're starting a UFO religion. So anybody done us will sign up now You're more than welcome We're going to be offering a class On how to contact the Nusians You know the 10 ways you can do it

We've caught this grift unlock We've got this unlock baby Venusins all the way I love it man Better communicators Hold each other accountable And I think you know Last but not least like touch some grass

Like it's easy for us to say Being here doing a lot of stream you know, but like, like Jason said, like there are conferences you can go to. Suzanne went to the Soul Conference recently, and I'm sure she met some incredible people and had amazing conversations. And like, that's what we need to return to. And it's still happening. Like, we're not saying that everything's dead.

Like, all of this is bad. Like, there's really good stuff going on. Like Steve said, there's independent groups that you can look into. you know, there's just so many ways to be involved in this topic. And at the end of the day, like, don't listen to the four of us. Listen to your gut. Listen to yourself. Absolutely.

Look up in the sky and you decide what you saw. Don't rely on anyone else to tell you what you saw. So, I mean, I mean, we could keep talking circles around this, as Jason would say. Like, UFOs are cyclical. That's not always a bad thing. but I think at the end of the day like if it weren't for this topic I wouldn't be here talking to the three of you

so if anything I'm thankful for that I don't give a shit what UFOs are I don't think I'm ever gonna know like Jacques Valet said I'll probably go to my deathbed not knowing and I'm completely fine with that I can't that's the case absolutely man 100%

If I wasn't in this topic I wouldn't be sorely in debt from buying books Okay. Well, like, what you said about, like, enjoying the mystery is, like, my thesis statement with this stuff. Like, I, I, I, first and foremost, even above a 40 and I am a mystery junkie. Mystery is what gets me out of bed. It's an important aspect to, like, to wonder. And that's what UFOs as a kid and still today really provide me.

And that's why I would feel so warm and fuzzy and passionate about it. And I defend euphology, even though maybe I shouldn't sometimes. But I think if you can just get over the answer and just say, like, this mystery is amazing and where's it going to take me and what kind of people want me, what kind of my ideas will float through my head? It is such a great lens to use through a mysterious life. So I just want to say, I agree with you. I love that. It's perfect for me. Love it.

Chef's kiss, baby. All right, guys. let's wrap this up. I've kept you far longer than anticipated. This is an awesome conversation of UFO's past, present, future. I learned so much. And that is the point. That is the point. That's why I started the podcast. That's why I will continue to do the podcast. And yeah, I just want to thank everyone throughout the years for listening to the show, for supporting my work, for supporting your guys' work as well. you guys giving me a chance and coming on my show and having me as guests on yours, that's what it's all about, living in that mystery. I will continue to do that. I'm so thankful that people still want to take this ride with me, and that includes E3 as well. So that being said, this is a celebration today. This is not a death. And congratulations, 400, man. That's quite an accomplishment. I'm very proud of you. I'm Hey man, couldn't have done it without you guys

and all the incredible listeners, viewers, and supporters throughout the years. But yeah, let's wrap it up. I want to know what you guys. Oh, I'm getting the note from Suzanne, my poll. I always forget to read the polls. I'm going to go to the, this will be an interesting little way to end things, guys.

Let me refresh it. We did a poll over on YouTube. What was is the best decades of euphology? I had to group these in 20 years. So we had the 50s and 60s, 70s and 80s, 90s to 2000s, 2000s to 2020. It doesn't really involve what's going on now, but we'll group that into the 2020s. So our poll has 50s and 60s at 35%. We had 70s and 80s at 23%, 90s to 2000s at 6%.

And 2000s to 2020s, 35%. So the 50s and the 50s and the 80s. the 2000s are neck and neck. So pretty interesting. Beginning in the end. Yeah. Yeah. The beginning of the,

the, yeah, yeah. I love that. Thank you guys. Thank you for taking part in the poll. What do you guys think of the poll results? And what is,

what's your favorite decade of euphology? If you had to pick one, Rob, let's go with you, buddy. If I had to pick just one, um,

in all of the years of doing research, I would say the most interesting stuff, man, it is tough. I think you got the full scale of everything in the 60s. You got war-wide acceptance of like the humanoid topic. You got things like angel hair. You got things like alien abductions. You got a lot of famous cases from the period. You got Mothman, you got all of that stuff lumped in.

And I think the 60s is kind of where I think it produced a lot of great data, and it produced a lot of great cases that we still talk about today. A lot of good music, too, absolutely. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was a great decade, yeah. Oh, I love it. Jason, how about you, buddy?

Do you have a favorite decade of uphology? Got to be the 60s, man. I mean, and the artwork from that time, too, is really cool. But the photos, the civilian research groups, I mean, the APRO bulletins alone are just absolute gold. I love them. And I know those extended into the 80s and stuff. And, you know, yeah, just the organizations that were doing the research, the cases, the imagery, 60s for me. Love it.

Steve, how about you, man? I'm going to say the 1970s. I love the 60s. But for me, the 70s cases are amazing. I'm such a huge fan of Stan Gordon's work where there's a book called Sound Invasion by the 1973, 74,

Bigfoot UFO flap. And I love the conjunction of when high, strangest things cross over. But yeah, the 70s for me, I think just aesthetically, too, I love the look of the book covers and just the

ephemeral of this. I mean, 60s and 70s, honestly, is a tie for me. But I'll say 70s to be different. And I like a lot of the 80s, too. I think towards the end of the 80s, it kind of sort of became what it more is today. But I think most of the 80s was pretty cool. And in terms of like the characters in the 80s, like the John Learsby talking about before, like there was just fun characters. Like, I mean, the people watching at like a Mufon conference at 1986 must have been incredible.

I would love to go. I would have loved to have been at the Billmore 1989 conference. That's a time machine destination for me. Yeah, in Vegas. Vegas is the perfect place for that too, to have happened. Hell yeah.

They were trying to split up the conference like Billmore, or not Billmore, but like, what's the faith? Oh, yeah. Well, listen, dude. My can't, behold a pale. Bill Cooper. Bill Cooper.

Yeah. What I find, what I find so. fascinating about that conference. It's like you had that big time stuff happening. You had a lot of cool stuff like, what was the Heinz, Heinz, Heinex secretary, Jenny,

I forget her name. God, dang. Oh, right. She was, she presented on the 73, or yeah, 73 coin helicopter case. There's a lot of really good cases that were presented in that conference. If you get the, the correspondence, which is still out there. It doesn't have the Bill Moore stuff in it, but it has everything else.

And it's pretty great. Yeah, the 80s were solid. 80s were solid. Yeah. 80s are solid. Yeah. I'm going to have to play. Walt is a baby.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Rob's favorite. He is my. I'm actually doing an episode coming up on the podcast about the golf breeze six. Such a fascinating incident. Mixing golf breeze with religion.

The military. It's so crazy. It's amazing. It's just a big soup of everything. I love it. I love it. I'm going to have to go with 60s. Yeah. I'd love to think of Ed Walter just as the Antichrist like they thought of him. So, you know, like. I could see that. I could see that man. Oh, gosh. The Catholic enemies.

All right. Calling someone the Antichrist. Not cool. Not cool. Why did someone say belieful in the chat? Anyways. Let me go to the Star Chat. see if I'm missing anything, and then we are out of here, gentlemen. Everyone just said, good job, good job. Jason for UFOs are. I love it.

A lot of congratulations. Thank you guys. Truly, truly do appreciate that. All right, guys, we're going to wrap it up. Thank you again. Let us know where we can find everything you're up to, what you are up to. And yes, where people can reach out to you with that now target on your back for coming So, Rob, let's start with you, man.

You're great at protecting your data, but lots of places could still expose you to identity theft. I thought it was safe. If that happens, LifeLock gives you a U.S.-based restoration agent who will stick by your side from start to finish. Phone calls, filing documentation, preparing insurance claims, your agent handles it all. In fact, we're so confident restoration is guaranteed. Pour your money back. Isn't it nice to have someone like that on your side? Save up to 40% your first year at LifeLock.com slash Spotify.

Terms apply. You will never find me. No. Let's just say there's too much snow where I am, so good luck. Yeah, I have a UFO-themed webcomic that we're in the beginning stages of our second volume, very beginning. But it's called Welcome UFO People. we are on Instagram

and X and we do have a book available for purchase that you can find a link to over on those social media platforms I also have a substander by the way yes you you did feature some of some of them

in the museum and I appreciate that I also have a substack where I write stories but I also publish like old humanoid cases that I come across. It's called Foolology, F-O-O-L-O-G-Y dot substack.com. And I actually posted one this morning about these weird humanoids in a half-moon object.

So if you find that interesting, you can go check that out. Please read it and give me compliments. I need them. Thank you. Positive reinforcement, baby. No, great, great work, Rob, as it always. Steve, thank you. Where can we find everything you're up to,

buddy? Yeah, I have a podcast called Hi Stranges, like I'm saying hi to it. It's H-I-coma strangeness, and go check it out. We talk about word stuff. Also, I guess my social media is Bergmaster 5,000. You can find me on most of those platforms.

Hell yeah. Awesome. This is so fun. Thank you. And congrats, Ryan. I'm happy for it, man. $400 is a big deal. Thank you. I appreciate that.

Thank you so much, man. Jason, last but not least, where can we find everything you're up to and what are you up to? Sure, thanks. So I don't have too much time for UFOs these days, but I do stay, I do my best to keep up with it every day. So my contributions are slim these days, but I do a monthly podcast called UFO,

UAP, WTF, and I publish a weekly newsletter of the same name, UFO, UAP, WTF, that covers all the the biggest headlines of UFO related stories, research, media, upcoming events, things like that. So it's a weekly newsletter. It's a free newsletter. And you can find that on the podcast at UFOUAPWTF.com. I love it. Oh, God, I get so excited when I get that email notification of the newsletter every week. So thank you. Oh, thanks, Ryan. Thank you for that. No, and thank you for today, buddy. Congratulations on 400. Oh, thank you. And again, guys, thank you so much for joining us today. I see all your comments. I really do appreciate all of the support as well. You can find everything we do on social media. Links are down below.

Somewhere in the skies.com, all that good stuff. And we do a live stream, Suzanne and I, every Sunday, almost every Sunday, when we can. So be sure to check that out right here on YouTube. And yeah, yeah, I'm going to be heading out to Nova Scotia. Very soon to continue my ghost. hunting endeavors. So I'm super excited about that. But the UFOs never stop and they will continue for another 400 episodes or more as the mystery continues. So that's going to do it, guys. Jason, Steve, Rob, thank you so, so much. I'll leave you with our mantra as always. Keep your feet on the ground, but never stop searching somewhere in the skies. Thank you for joining us somewhere in the skies. Please take a moment to rate and review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever possible.

You can find us across all social media by searching for somewhere in the skies. Thank you so much for listening. I'm Ryan Sprigg. And I'm Andrew Sanford. And we love pro wrestling. It's the best. Headlocks, elbow drops. Scathing promos and chair shots.

We just can't get enough of it. So we started a podcast. You can join Ryan and me as we dig into the ins and outs of pro wrestling like the rabid fans we are. We've got interviews. previews, predictions, news, and so much more. And we're going to cover all of it on Somewhere in the Ring. Oh, yeah. Is that supposed to be macho, man?

Nope, no good. We'll work on it. Join us every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts, for all new episodes. And we'll see you somewhere in the ring. Somewhere in the Ring is part of the E1 Podcast Network.