Somewhere in the Skies - Who is the Missing Air Force General Connected to Tom DeLonge?

Episode Date: March 4, 2026

Breaking news has shaken the UFO community: retired U.S. Air Force Major General Neil McCasland has reportedly gone missing near Albuquerque, New Mexico, prompting authorities to ask the public for assistance as concerns grow over his well-being. In this episode, Ryan addresses the developing situation before revisiting a fascinating panel discussion examining the mysterious figure of McCasland and his alleged connections to the modern UFO disclosure movement. Ryan is joined by Tim McMillan of The Debrief, Zac Cichy of the Project Human podcast, and Britt of the Inference YouTube channel to explore McCasland’s rumored role in helping bring together the insiders who would later work with Tom DeLonge after the Blink-182 co-founder left music to pursue UFO disclosure. From DeLonge’s secret meetings with high-ranking officials to the eventual creation of To The Stars Academy of Arts & Science, the panel examines the influence of the enigmatic general, what his involvement might reveal about the hidden history of UFO research, and what it could mean for the future of disclosure. Call to Action: Neil McCasland was last seen Friday morning, February 27th, 2026, near Quail Run Court NE in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Due to medical concerns, authorities are asking for help. If you have any information, please contact the Bernalillo County Sheriff’s Office Missing Persons Unit at 505-468-7070 or text BCSO to 847411. Or call 911. Please take a moment to rate and review us on Spotify and Apple. Book Ryan on CAMEO at: https://bit.ly/3kwz3DO Patreon: http://www.patreon.com/somewhereskies ByMeACoffee: http://www.buymeacoffee.com/UFxzyzHOaQ PayPal: [e-mail] Substack: https://ryansprague.substack.com/ All Socials and Books: https://linktr.ee/somewhereskiespod Email: [e-mail] SpectreVision Radio: https://www.spectrevision.com/podcasts Opening Theme Song by Septembryo Closing Song by Per Kiilstofte Copyright © 2026 Ryan Sprague. All rights reserved. #MissingPerson #MissingPersons #AirForce #UFOs #UFOlogy #UFOdisclosure #UAP #TomDeLonge #NeilMcCasland #UFOcommunity #Paranormal #Aliens Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Specter Vision Radio. While our government's official position is not to speculate on this subject, we can choose to let our minds explore other possibilities. To use our imaginations. For if we consider that astro-scientists agree on one point, that the possibility of life elsewhere is not only quite probable, some field is there without a doubt. Let us suppose them that these objects are real space vehicles,

extraterrestrial in origin, and not an illusion of the mind. I'm Ryan Sprague, and you are now somewhere in the skies. Welcome to Somewhere in the Skies. I am your host, Ryan Sprague. Now, back in 2021, I did a panel discussion with my friends and colleagues, Tim McMillan, Zach Saichy, and Britt. And that panel discussion centered around a man named Neil McCaslin.

And the reason that I want to revisit this panel discussion with you today is because of this. The search continues for a missing retired Air Force General who disappeared from an Albuquerque neighborhood last week. Now we've learned federal investigators are helping in that search. William Neal McAisland was last seen near his foothills area home on Friday near Tramway and Academy. Today volunteers along with investigators from BCSO and the FBI were canvassing the neighborhood. McCastlin, who 68, retired in 2013, after a long career. in the Air Force, including as the commander for the Air Force Research Lab at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio and leading the Phillips Research Site at Curtlin in Albuquerque.

BCSO is leading the investigation into his disappearance. Now, there have been a lot of conspiracy theories going around that General Neil McCaskillan is missing because of reasons to do with what he knows about the UFO topic. I mean, this guy has been kind of a mythical figure in the UFO field for the past decade. He could seemingly be responsible for everything we've been talking about for over 10 years now when it comes to UFOs. It all started with him and a meeting with Tom DeLong. But now in the year, 26, this man is missing. So at the end of the day, a family has lost a father, a husband, co-workers.

friends. So I do want to acknowledge that and put some information up here for you guys on how you can contact law enforcement if you have any information pertaining to Neil McCaslin missing. So I thought today we would revisit this panel discussion and kind of demystify this enigmatic character in the UFO field. But again, if you have any information or want to help, I will put the information up here and in the show notes for you as well. But for now, I hope you enjoy this panel discussion, and thank you for joining us again on Somewhere in this guys. Tom DeLong co-founded one of the most popular bands of all time, Blink 182. Along with his side projects of Angels and Airwaves and Boxcar Racer, he was at the height of his musical career.

And then he decided to walk away from all of it in pursuit of something completely different. Here's Tom DeLon during an exclusive interview with Jason McClellan and Maureen Ellsbury on their hit web series spacing out. One of my first memories is being in seventh grade where I was walking, I had like an hour

in junior high. It's like the first school kind of system in junior high level where you get to walk between classes, so you have a few minutes. I for some reason had more than a few minutes, so I had to go to the library. And I was walking to his library and I didn't read books at all. Then, you know, in school, I was like books.

Who wants to read books? books, you know, I'm in skateboarding and stuff. So I'm like, well, if I have to read a book right now, I wonder if there's like any weird, like, UFO books. And I don't even know why that came to my attention. It was so odd because that's, and all I found was a book that had something about one UFO in the Loch Ness Monster. But either way, it was cool, and it was in my school library. And from that moment forward, it really sparked my interest. But it kind of, there's a gap there until I was able to actually afford to buy a computer. So computers were really happening. when I was 20, 21.

That's like the beginning of the 90s. Like, bam, things are happening with computers. So I signed a record contract and got my first paycheck. And the very first thing I did was I went out and bought this shitty, like, compact computer or something. And I brought it home, signed on. And I think I just typed in like UFOs or something or Area 51. I don't even know. There's the common term.

And at that time, it popped up the desert rat papers. Do you remember the desert rat? Yeah, I forgot his name. I want to say Gordon or something. I don't remember. But it was the guy that lived in Rachel Nevada that just all he did was just blog and write about his ongoings at monitoring Area 51. Because at that point, part of, you know, one of the peaks looking in were free. So the Navy didn't really wrap up the entire mountain range when part of it was open. So he was able to go in there and do some quality stuff.

And so I was instantly hooked. I'm all this is like fiction, but it's nonfiction. It's even better. long would continue his pursuit, digging deeper and deeper into UFOs, which would eventually lead to a series of secret meetings with high-level government insiders. First time I met with a government official, it would have been in the back booth of a restaurant at an airport where I meet this person, he's a general, and he walks me into this vacant area of an airport restaurant puts his briefcase down.

Blader comes over and take a drink and he puts his hand up and says, we're just having a conversation. We were in anything. And the guys, well, okay, fine then. You know, whatever, he said, walks away. And then he looked me in the eyes and said, it was the Cold War. And everything we did at the time was because nuclear war could break out any given day. It was a very real palpable threat. And somewhere in there, we stumbled upon the UFO phenomenon. And I remember, Remember, right when he said that, my heart just started beating like crazy in my chest, I got all the chills, and the next conversation that happened for an hour at that booth was extraordinary,

life-changing, and scary. Those meetings would ultimately lead to an advisory board that would eventually make up to the Stars Academy of Arts and Science. The organization included an elite team of former government and defense contractor insiders. who would work behind the scenes to socialize the topic of UFOs and persuade the government to reveal what it knows about them. That team originally consisted of Jim Semivan, Dr. Hal Putoff, Steve Justice, Chris Mellon, and Luis Elizondo.

From there, we would eventually learn of the one secret Pentagon UFO program, known as A-Tip. We'd see the now-famous Navy UFO videos shot off the West and East Coast, and officially acknowledged and released by the Department of Defense. And then we'd see, by request by the Senate Intelligence Committee, a preliminary assessment of the UFO phenomenon by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. All of this, in its weird and convoluted way, traced back to Tom DeLong,

but it also traced back to the meeting with whom Tom would call the General, who would allegedly set up DeLong's team of advisors, and would lead DeLong down a path that is yet to be truly known. In November of 2016, WikiLeaks released a trove of emails from John Podesta, chair of Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign, and, by all accounts, a huge advocate for UFO disclosure. Within those hacked emails were correspondence between John Podesta and none other than Tom DeLong.

In the emails, DeLong would explain his meetings with the general. DeLong would go so far as to name this general in the emails as one Major General William Neal McCasland. McCaslin's career is definitely one that many UFO researchers have looked into with a curious eye. He retired from the U.S. Air Force as a major general after a 34-year career. He culminated his Air Force career as commander

at the Air Force Research Laboratory at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, where he led the USAF's $4 billion science and technology program. McCaslin is accomplished in applied technology management and intelligence programs, ranging from science and technology investment planning to on-orbit space operations. McCaslin holds a degree in astronautical engineering from the U.S. Air Force Academy.

It would make logical sense for this to be not only the general in question, but a chronological string of experience that would make McCasland a very powerful force in both the United States military and in possession of the highest security levels of information pertaining to UFOs. Today, we're joined by three days. guests who have looked heavily into what could be the impetus for everything Tom DeLong is done, dating back to those very first meetings he had with elite members of the government and military. We will discuss the six degrees of General McCasland and the subsequent chain of

events that has led to where we are today and where we may be going in the ever-evolving story of UFOs. You tell yourself, no one wants your college-era band teas, but on Deepop, people are searching for exactly what you've got. You once paid a small fortune for them at merch stands. Now, a teenager who calls them vintage will offer that same small fortune back. Sell them easily on Deepop. Just snap a few photos and we'll take care of the rest.

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Real design professionals, free samples, zero pressure. Right now, get up to 45% off with minimum purchase, plus get a free professional measure at blinds.com. Rules and restrictions apply. Welcome to this very special panel discussion today. I am calling this six degrees of General McCaslin. And we have an awesome panel with us today. We have first and foremost from the debrief, Tim McMillan, not first and foremost.

That's not a slight against our other two panelists. Tim is here with us. We've got Zach Sightje, who is, I must quote, the only person on UFO Twitter who gets along with McWest, Jeremy Corbell, Keith Thor, Steve Bassett, but is somehow still blocked by George Knapp. That's all true. From Project Human is with us.

And last but not least, the newest member of the UFO Twitter family and community. We have at Infference on Twitter, but she is allowing us to use her name for the first time ever on Somewhere in the Skies. Britt, welcome to this very special panel discussion. Thanks for having me. Yeah, this is going to be fun, guys.

So let's kind of, let's set the stage for what we're doing here today. This is General Neil McCaslin, who some people might not even know who this dude is or why he may be important to the discussion we're going to have today. And you guys are kind of the ones who have brought this name up and been like, we might want to look a little further into this person because mainstream media doesn't seem to want to do it. And he might, might be the key word. be the connector to a lot of what's going on today, maybe. But let's start, before we even get to General McCaslin, I want to get your guys initial thoughts of when to the Stars Academy,

which I should mention, I've got a little shameless promotion here today, before To the Stars really started Secret Machines. Your initial thoughts, when Tom DeLong first came forward and said that he was starting this academy and all these, advisors he was working with. I'm not going to lie, when I first heard about it, I'm like, holy shit, is this it? Like, are we doing this? Is this disclosure that we've always dreamed of?

So what were your initial impressions when Tom DeLong first started talking about this stuff? Zach, let's start with you. Sure, man. Thank you for having me on, by the way. It's an honor to be on this show. Thank you. I thought of Dan Aykroyd.

Really? Yeah. You know, do you remember, do you remember Dan Aykroyd came out a long time ago? As, you know, super into this stuff. In fact, like, that's the reason why he, you know, wrote Ghostbusters. You know, he was really into paranormal weird stuff. And to me, it was like, okay, here's another celebrity coming out who is super into weird stuff. And honestly, on a surface level, I didn't think a lot more of it when it first started to come to fruition.

Because even prior to The Stars, you know, Tom was doing interviews talking about the UFO issue, talking about why it's important, you know, and he, I think he even did a couple debates with skeptics and things like that. You know, but then obviously everything that happened with the New York Times article and all the people that were involved into the Stars Academy, obviously it raised my eyebrows for sure. I didn't really know what to make of it, but, you know, as we're going to be kind of talking about on this show, one of the things that lended some amount of credibility to the efforts that he was making early on were actually those John Podesta 2016 WikiLeaks emails where it turned out, oh my God, he really was talking to John Podesta. He really was in communication with, you know, high level officials and people that should have some kind of know, you know, they should. know about this stuff. And so I started paying a little more attention. That's sort of the short version, I guess. Nice. Okay. Awesome. No, I love it, man. Because again, like, this was a kind of a key moment because we now were learning of all these people Tom was working with. We all thought he was full of shit, to be completely honest, until the podesta emails came out, which I'm going to read the email in a little bit here. But, Brett, let's go with you. What were your initial impressions

when you first heard about, you know, this former Blink 182 dude saying that, like, he was going to disclose the truth on UFOs or whatever his grand plans were. What did you think? Well, I have to say, you know, first and foremost, like, I just recently got into this topic. Yeah. The 60 Minutes episode on UAPs is actually what brought me over here. Wow. Okay.

Yeah. And so I'll never forget, like, the day that aired, I was hanging out with a couple of my friends, right, from high school. And one of my buddies super into Blink 182. And he was just like, yo, Tom DeLong. Yeah, he's really into that stuff. I was like, oh, really. But besides that, I had no idea. First time I ever heard of Lou Elizondo was through that, right? And so, honestly, I, what should I say here. Like, I don't really have, like, any sort of a feeling or anything except for, like, that's sick, you know? Curiosity. Yeah.

Very curious, you know. So, of course, like, when I was going through the WikiLeaks emails, when they first released, I'm pretty sure at any curious mind, the first thing that they typed in on WikiLeaks was UFOs. Oh, yeah. For sure. Absolutely. And it's so crazy because, like, I never really listened to Blink 118 to, like, I'm a weird 2000s kid, right? Like, very weird. I wasn't really into that scene, right? So when I was going through the whole entire thing, I don't think it even clicked with me at the time. It was Tom DeLong or who Tom DeLong was,

was Link 1-82. Didn't even click, but I'll tell you one thing. I saw UFOs. And I saw a Roswell crash. And I did also see a name, General McCassum. So what do I think about it right now? Well, it's crazy. All of it's crazy.

It is crazy that. fond of long was able to get a hold and get all these people together, all these credible figures together. It's absolutely amazing. Yeah. But at the same time, there's a couple things that don't necessarily add up. And I'm sure that a lot of us who have dug into the WikiLeaks emails and really dug into To The Stars Academy in general all think the same thing, right?

Just something's a little off there. Something's off. And we will get there because I think, you know, that's that's kind of where we're at. Like, to the stars kind of came and then went. And now we're kind of left like wondering, what do we do now? And I think, you know, the fact that we're having this discussion today about a general who may not have even been involved in this, except for rumor and speculation. And we don't even know if this is the actual dude that Tom talked to.

He says it, but we'll get to that. But, Tim, how about you, my man? When Tom DeLong first came forward and all this happened and boom, New York Times article, what do you got? What were your initial impressions? Well, I was kind of late to the party. Not as late as Brit there, but, you know, I didn't pay any attention. I wasn't a part of the UFO community or really paying attention to the topic in general until, you know, late December 2017.

When the New York Times came out, these videos started coming out. And so I kind of had to backtrack and listen. I think the first thing I thought when I watched that initial press conferences that was held back in October was that it was so freaking weird that they were clearly in an empty auditorium. I couldn't figure out why the hell they would do that. You know, it was so strange, especially for what they were saying they were going to do. But I think like anybody else, I guess for me not coming from a UFO background per se,

it was strange to see people, you know, some of the people up there on the stage that I was at least vaguely familiar with, people that do have credentialed backgrounds, you know, like Christopher Mellon, Steve Justice, you know, working at Skunk Works at Lockheed Martin, Jim Simivant, and so it was just odd. It was an odd mix to be there. And I guess I didn't, I guess because I didn't get to hear the news when it first came on October, I probably didn't have the same response as a lot of people who it maybe wasn't as odd because I at least had the benefit of seeing them actually do something in terms of releasing

information and being the ones to kind of break the news on ATIP and AllSaf and all of that. So, you know, like Brits said, I guess in retrospect, it's weird and it's still weird, but it's an interesting topic. Maybe it's weird because it's a mix of weird, but people, that aren't weird. They're involved. It's weird, weird confluence. Yeah, it's the strangest lunch table in the cafeteria.

It is the ultimate breakfast club, Tim, I think, for sure. I remember, so I don't remember, I think it was 2012. I was at the International UFO Congress in Arizona. And I'm sitting at a banquet table. We're having like this dinner. and I look up and in the corner is this tall, ranky dude, just standing there, like scoping out the room and listening to what was going on, and lo and behold, it was Tom DeLon.

So, I mean, there you go, man. This guy, he's no slouch. He didn't just get into this. He's had a fascination and interest for, God, years now, ever since he was on the tour buses and stuff with a blink. But he somehow wiggled his... his way into whatever it is that he came up with with to the start and again I think a lot of us thought oh man like this is all the yes like this is going to blow up in his face and then like

brett mentioned the the pedestrian emails were leaked and I'm just going to read right here the the email that really caught all of our attention this was from tom to long to john podesta the subject was general mccaslin there you go the subject was literally general mccaslin and Thomas saying to Podesta, he mentioned he's a skeptic, he's not. I've been working with him for four months. I just got done giving him a four-hour presentation on the entire project a few weeks ago.

Trust me, the advice has already been happening on how to do all of this. He just has to say that out loud, but he is very, very aware, and he was in charge of all of this stuff. When Roswell crashed, it's an interesting way of wording it, when Roswell crashed,

They shipped it to the laboratory at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, which we will get to. General McCaston was in charge of that exact laboratory up to a couple years ago. You not only knows what I'm trying to achieve, he helped assemble my advisory team. He's a very important man. So, I mean, I don't know what else to say other than General McCastlin must be this individual. What do you guys think? Right. I think we should provide a little bit of background, though, as to why we think that that general is. Okay, so first of all, Tom DeLong was going around in 2016, giving various interviews, and he was talking about and recalling this story of this guy made that he called the general.

Okay. There's a lot to this, but I'm being going to be as brief as possible because there's too much to get into. Basically, he had this, you know, you recall this story, had this airport meeting. You know, he had climbed the hierarchy of secrecy or whatever. And he has this airport meeting with this general, just the general. And the general says, you know, we found a life form and it was the Cold War. And basically gives him, you know, feeds Tom this whole story, you know, like a new kind of core story of UFO mythology, I guess, right? And it kind of sounds a lot like other core mythologies that we've heard in the past for, you know, this topic.

And, you know, the reason why we, why I think that when, you know, Tom is referencing, you know, McCaslin in that email, why I think the general that he was talking about publicly and this general McCaslin that he's talking about privately, why I think they almost have to be the same guy is because he's talking about the exact same thing. like, oh, this guy who ran research at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, the same base where, you know, they shipped the Roswell crash or whatever. It has to be the same guy because the language is just too similar between his public interviews and what he's privately saying to John Podesta. So that's that's my impression of it. Right, right. And I mean, again, like, I think when looking at the background of McAllen is when it really starts to fall into place.

I mean, like you said, he worked at Wright Patterson. He worked at Los Angeles Air Force Base early on in his career. I actually, I talked to Don Schmidt this morning for any of our listeners who don't know. He's one of the most prominent Roswell investigators out there. He's been looking at the case for a while. And I just like out of the blue, I message him. I'm like, hey, man, like in all of your research into Wright Patterson and Roswell, like, has General McCaslin ever come up?

and he messaged me back immediately. He was like, yeah, funny you should mention that. Here's exactly what he said. I met McCaslin at a luncheon at the Petroleum Club in New Mexico, but didn't know his connections to Wright Patterson at the time. Once I got to really know more about him and what he was involved in, I reached out to him personally to talk about the Roswell crash and possible wreckage, and he refused to comment on anything to me.

So interesting. I mean, it doesn't really add to this story other than the primary, you know, person looking at Roswell was kind of brushed off by McCastell. And I will say, I did reach out to General McCaslin in a very public sort of way recently. No like backdoor meetings or communication. But he did read my message. I know that for a fact. So, you know, as of the recording of this, he has not answered me back. But we will see.

we will see. But I guess, Brit, now, McCasteland is something you've been looking a lot into lately, and you've been digging and making some connections. So what do you think is most important about this guy and why we should continue looking at him as possibly the person who set all of this into motion with Tom, the people he's working with? Yeah, what do you think? But yeah, it's just his background in aerospace technology, right?

He's got a very prestigious background. It's very impressive. And, you know, you can hear rumors. Just people in general just like to pass around the rumor about Wright Patterson being, like, the base where they have, like, all the cool stuff. Oh, yeah. But, like, E.T. and UFOs. But, you know, another interesting thing about him is that he worked in the Kirtland Research Facility. Right.

You know, like, it's just he has a lot of, like, interesting. like connections in general to things that are like kind of like rumored to be associated with this just like this whole entire phenomenon in general right are you are you familiar sorry britt i just want to ask are you familiar with the curtling mythology when it comes to ufos is that something you've looked into yet or no i am currently looking into it okay i know that you know their focal point is just basically all like missile related research in space vehicles, propulsion, stuff like that. But the pathology behind it, I know it exists.

I mean, I've heard you talk about it. But I haven't personally looked into it just yet because, you know, there's just like an endless array of rabbit holes to fall into while we're researching this phenomenon. And I can honestly say, genuinely say, I have not covered all of it just yet. I'm only just at the tip of the iceberg right now, but McCastlin in general was just the most interesting to me, right? So I'm just steadily digging, steadily digging. Gotcha. Tim, what do you make of this guy? No, I know you've spoken to a lot of people, including in your three-part series recently over at the debrief. You know how these people react when it comes to UFOs. And, you know, it's not something they ever want to touch. And it seems. like, you know, this guy was willing to really cooperate with Tom, even when UFOs came up. So, like, what do you think, man?

Is this something that they saw an opportunity to work with this guy and just play him? Or, yeah, what do you make of the whole McCasteland thing? If you even think this is the dude that set this stuff all up. Well, I mean, we're down to the core. We're getting right to the heart of the real deal here. Absolutely. Just dig right into it. We're going right to the end of the movie.

All right, man. Cool. I think it's an interesting, you know, I think it's an interesting, you know, the whole kind of it adds, like Zach said, it adds some really interesting mythology to it. Now, one problem that I have with the whole McCausen story has nothing to do with what we just discussed and publicly out there, but it's just based on the simple fact that everything that we know and all inferences that we have to kind of make are based solely on just a single source, in this case, Tom DeLong.

And I'm sure we'll get into it in a little bit, but there's, you know, been some comments by Tom in different interviews at various points where it's called to question the veracity of some of what he's saying, you know, down to the fact that one could even question whether or not what explicitly Tom was saying in those emails to Podesta was, was accurate, you know. So that's what makes it really difficult for me. I don't think I dispute, I think that it's, I would say with a high degree of certainty, that McCaslin is probably the, quote, general that DeLong has referenced in numerous occasions. Now, beyond that, in terms of, you know, it was the Cold War. We found a life form. I mean, that sounds like a great book for a book or a movie. Or even, you know, the information where he's saying, he's been helping me build my team out, this type of stuff.

You know, like you mentioned, I have had an opportunity to be fortunate to speak to a lot of people who have either worked on these kind of UFO programs in more contemporaneous, you know, more current, I should say, timeframes or even in the recent past, going back to Alsap, they do not, they, no one has shared that same sentiment with me. That Cazin is like the smoking man from X-Files behind us. all of that said, I think that it's totally understandable why McCasden would come up. I think that, you know, in turn, I mean, if you were going to write a script for it in the mythology, McCasden's a great character to cast. You know, down, I think Britt touched on it. His assignments, you know, not just his career, specifically what he's done during his Air Force career, is he had a number of posts and assignments where,

If there is more UFO involvement in the U.S. government than they let on, he certainly would be in a position to kind of know that, you know, going down to his initial assignments right out of, you know, right out of college when he was first commissioned in the Air Force down at Los Angeles Air Force Base. you know, in the early 80s, he would have been working on the Star Wars program. So a lot of satellite, a lot of missile defense stuff, a lot of monitoring. It's a very, very tense time frame there. And so, you know, I think we mentioned this off the mic when we were chatting about it, but one intriguing thing. And this just kind of comes from the background in law enforcement. One of those roles was as a profiler.

And so you start looking to see does behavior match what's being said? And it's interesting to me that the quote about it was a cold war, you know, the threat of nuclear war was every day around us. That's actually, you know, consistent with what somebody in McCaslin's position during the early 1980s would say, frankly, because it was a very tense time. It was, you know, arguably one of the most tense times next to the Cuban missile prices. And so I think that him being assigned there initially, you know, if you're, there's enough reconnaissance and surveillance and intelligence assets that are in satellite space and in atmosphere space, if you've got stuff coming through and you're picking it up, obviously there's going to be a conversation hat.

Later in his career, he worked a lot of acquisitions and materials command related stuff, both at the Pentagon and then there at Air Force Research Labs. That's specifically where he worked at Wright Patterson in the Materials Division. And so sure, you know, Wright Pat has considerable history in the Roswell. myths and the UFO myths in his specific command position would have been inside the materials doctor. And so he's definitely kind of in all these right positions. But is what he said accurate?

You know, I don't know. And that's what makes it difficult is because we only have one side of the story. And more of than that, we don't even have a direct side of the story. So we have Tom, who's made either general inferences about, quote, the general, we're reading an email that, let's, I'll be honest, was not meant for public consumption anyway. It was sent to the recipient. And so, you know, it's like if anybody combed through our emails, I bet you they could get all sorts of impressions that probably aren't accurate. You know, you, if you comb through somebody's text messages, because conversations go on

on the phone, they're going in person. So we don't know, there's a lot of unknowns there. And so it's difficult for me. Right. Exactly. Well, that brings up something that Zach has brought up in his looking into all of this is Tom DeLong. And his admitting that he might have made some stuff up to get higher and higher up the food chain. Somehow you were able to not only get people on the phone, but get people on the record and start really getting stuff out to the public that had never been available for. And that's a, is that just due to your sheer tenacity? It really kind of was. I basically, the very beginning of it,

I was playing a lot of very important people off each other. It was really kind of funny. I was just making things up. I was like, hey, I'm talking to so-and-so. And I go to that guy, I'm talking to so-and-so. And you weren't talking to anybody? Oh, I kind of was, but it was more like handshakes and hello's, you know?

Zach, do you want to comment on that and kind of how it plays into what Tim's saying there that, like, we've got this one dude to trust when it comes to all this. And, like, he's the lead singer of blink 182. So take that for what it is. Yeah. There's so much here to sort of, it's a puzzle, right? And it's like you're just trying to wrap your head around all these various pieces and we don't have the full context. So you've got to kind of infer certain things.

Right. And I actually, I don't like to infer things. I like to look at like what can we prove here. So what I can prove is Tom DeLong went on the radio on KRO. radio, you know, and said that he was essentially playing people off each other early on. Like, these are his words. He said, I was playing people off each other. In some cases, you know, he only, you know, it was like handshakes and hellos is the way

he described it, you know. So, like, he took these handshakes and hellos and then went to other people and said, who knows, right? And we have to guess based on, you know, that, like, was he doing the same thing here with Podesta and McCask? We don't know what Tom was saying directly to McHasland. We only know what Tom was saying about McCasland to Pedesta, which is why it would be really great for McHasland to come out and kind of clear this up.

And, you know, the argument that I've been railing on and making for a long time is, this is something that really adds credibility to Tom's story for people that are just looking at this and just kind of skimming the surface of things. It's like, well, look at this. Tom talked to General McCaslin. Look, he had a Google Hangouts meeting with him. Like, he had a Google Hangouts meeting with freaking McCaslin, Robert Weiss from Skunkwarks. Skunkworks, right.

Yeah, someone from the Hillary Clinton campaign, who I won't name here because didn't, it doesn't matter. But a group of people were part of this Google Hangouts meeting. and like what the hell were they doing there? And, you know, Tom follows up that Google Hangouts meeting, writing another email to Podesta saying like, you know, this general, General McCaslin, he says he's a skeptic. Trust me, he's not. You know, and again, that sounds a lot, very consistent with what Tom said on KROQ

about like playing people off each other. Or like, it's hard to establish a time. line. It's like, Tom, was this, was this an instance of you playing people off each other? Or were you actually in communication with this general who fed you this story? Like, it's very difficult to get a handle on all this. But the reason why I think it's important is I look at like basic questions that you ask going into anything. And you look at important details. It's like, okay, Tom was certainly, you know, in communication with these people. Let's go find out. Let's go talk to McCasland, right? And look, I've tried. I've, I have done everything within

my power as a not journalist and not huge, you know, person. I've done everything I can to try to get something out of McCasland because my view is, it's like either, either Tom's story is true, you know, and that would be interesting. Maybe we get like a no comment on, I don't, of McCasland. You know, he just says nothing. Or alternatively, everything here that Tom said in these emails is horseshit. And McCasland is hiding from the whole thing and not wanting to say anything because, honestly, he doesn't want his name any more tarnished than it already is by this, and his attachment to this entire story. Either way, this is an important piece of the puzzle to, like, we need to know one way or the other. And my argument,

to McCaslin if he's out there somewhere listening. It's like, dude, I'm not the only one who's going to ask this question. I'm not the only person who's going to send you messages on Facebook. Right? And in fact, I would argue even after he passes away, people are going to keep, like, this is how UFO mythology works. This stuff sticks forever. It's like if you have something to say about this, it would be really good for you to come

out and say something about it because it is a loose hanging fact, right, that is just kind of hanging out there and it will just become part and incorporated with the larger UFO mythology unless it does get cleared up. So I would hope that journalists will, you know, reach out to McCasland, and I would hope that McCasland understands why it's important for him to say something, one way or the other about this. You bring up so many. good point, Zach, especially the fact that, like, in, you're right, in uphology, you will become, like, a myth when it comes to this. So it's like, if you really want to be known as the general who possibly, you know, was feeding Tom Delong a bunch of either bullshit or truth, so be it.

If that wasn't true, I wouldn't, I would want to disentangle that for people, especially. So, and I really want to, not to interrupt, but, like, I really want to explain why I think it's important. If I'm McCasland and I see the last four years play out starting with Two the Stars Academy to the New York Times article to the classified UAP briefings to now the Pentagon has literally released a report on UFOs, this is important because it all started effectively with Tom DeLong and the formation of Two the Stars Academy and that core group of people that were part of to the Stars Academy, right? We've still got Mellon and Elizondo and all these other people kind of in play

continuing to talk about this. So when I look at journalists kind of looking into this stuff, I am a bit critical because it's like no one is circling back and like going, okay, where did this start? And can we trust any of this? Because I see a scenario that could be multiple things. one of the hypotheses I have, you know, among many, I personally think there's something to this.

But another hypothesis might be, these are all people kind of chasing their own shadows, you know? Like you hear something from one person and you think it's good enough to follow up with action, say. You know, there's a lot of stuff here and none of it's verifiable. Like none of it. And I go, I just, I'm just like, can we verify something? Just, and the McCaslin thing is like, okay, well, here's the origin of two, the stars academy.

Tom said that this guy helped him assemble his advisory team. Is that true? It's like question one on the list, right? I've got a long list of questions, but like, this is the first one and somehow it's gone unaddressed for four freaking years. Anyway. Yeah. That's why I care.

What did you say, Britt? It's technically longer. Because I think those emails leaked November. Yeah. Yeah, five years. October and November 2016, I was like, yeah, five years. That brings up something really interesting, too. Like, we have to go back to, and I'm so glad you used chasing Shadow Zack,

obviously being the first book in this series that Tom sort of pitched to all these people. Yeah, good job, my man. You know what you're doing. But we don't even know, because we know. Tom originally kind of compiled this advisory board with this possible general. And then the emails leaked. And a lot of them got cold feet and we're like, I don't want to be a part of this anymore. I'm out.

Like my name, I've done. So like that's another big question too. So is Mellon, is Elizondo? Are these people that he did eventually work with into the stars, the actual people that the original general assembled? We don't even know that at this point. Unless I'm completely off base with that. I don't know. But it seems like a lot of this really started with secret machines,

which I think kind of took the back seat when all of this other stuff started happening with the Navy UFO videos and everything. It's kind of like his original pitch kind of went to the back burner for a little bit. And now look at where we are. Less than two years after To the Star started, it's already basically gone. So, yeah, I don't know. Is that something anyone else wants to comment on? We don't even know if this is the original people that Tom was talking to

that eventually ended up in the academy. No, you're right. There's a ton of unknowns there. And I'll share, because I have followed up Samo. And I think Zach brings up an extremely significant point, is understanding the origin of it. Because it becomes problematic. You know, if you don't look into that and it requires you to do.

It requires you to just take the word of Tom along. That also requires you to begin digging into other things that he said. And frankly, Tom said a lot of crazy shit. You know, if anybody's watched the Joe Rogan interview, anything like that. And so you have to start saying, well, is that true? Is this true? So, you know, trying to sift through all of that is a difficult venture. And especially when you've got this other real thing that, you know,

the government's talking about, the releasing. reports about, but then you've got all this other stuff mixed in. But, you know, I did dig into it some, and I will say that only in background conversations, nobody wanted to speak on the record for various reasons. And, you know, one of them oftentimes being because if anybody who's actively employed by the Department of Defense, whether they're active duty to military or civilian, they can't. You know, they're not supposed to talk to reporters. They get a lot of trouble. But no one shared, no one has ever corroborated Tom's story to me. No one has ever made it sound like he's made it sound. It has been told to me that Tom is very much Tom like.

There's no secret sauce to how I get a hold of people. It's just like what Tom did, which is reaching out to people. You know, if you ask enough people, somebody says, yes, and you just kind of work your way there. And I think that to some extent, I'll say, you know, just now playing devil's advocate here and speaking on his benefit that it wasn't as nefarious as it might have sounded in the interview where he said he was playing people off of each other. You know, that's what journalists do is if you can get, you know, I, if you can email somebody and say, hey, I've been chatting with John Podesta.

And so I was wondering if I can chat with you, this type of thing. Because it's, nobody wants to be the first person to. talk to the press, but they don't mind if others have. And so that, it could be just simply that. Just about all journalists do that. But everybody has kind of shared it that Tom was just really good at reaching out to lots of people. You know, he is, you know, even though Brit, what do you say, a child of the 2000s, I feel very old right now because I grew up with a- Well, I was technically a 90s kid, but you know, I was a teenager. She's right on the cusp. I feel you're right. All right. Well, I can still remember being in high school jamming out to blink.

Oh, dude. Me too, too. I'm with you. Tom's got a name out there. So it's not just a random person. And so he reaches out. You know, it was shared to me that at least initially a lot of people, hey, you know, hey, it's Tom along. I know this dude, you know. And this was a project very much like you said, that the impetus behind it was the secret machines. It was this intermixing of fiction. nonfiction, like I'm going to tell a story what's supposed to be the truth through fiction format. And so a lot of these people who initially spoke to Tom were under this impression that they were just giving advice for a fictional movie or book, which afforded them the ability to use

fictional stuff. And that's not to say there that Tom is overtly lying to anybody. I end up saying this a lot to people, is that the truth tends to be very mundane, and it's not nearly sophisticated, and there's not this grand scheme that often people think, is that, you know, Tom very well could have gone into some of these meetings saying, hey, I want to write this book and make it really realistic, and it's about UFOs and everything, and, you know, can you give me some advice and pointers, wink, wink, and he's thinking, well, what they're telling me, they're saying it's for the book, but they're just saying that

because they can't really, you know, break security oaths, wink, wink. Meanwhile, they're on the other side going, oh, why does this dude keep winking at me? Like, maybe he was a punk rocker, you know. Yeah. Lived a rocker lifestyle. And so, yeah, I mean, that's kind of the way that everybody that I've spoken to about it has said.

But like Zach says, until somebody's willing to go on the record for it, This is just me telling you what somebody's told me. Whether anybody wants that or not, fine. I don't expect anybody to. And I agree that kind of some clarity here would be good. I understand, at least initially, some of the people I spoke to,

this was when TTSA was more together, and you had Mellon and Steve Justice and Elisando there, so maybe they didn't want to shit on those people's new employer. But that's kind of dissolved. And so I think either just getting some truth there, and I think because that's what becomes, very frustrating with all of this, is that you have something that I think is legitimately interesting here. When the government's releasing reports saying that, you know, 144 incidences,

I don't really give a shit if it's only one of those instances that's got something really exotic. Like, that's enough for me. I know people want to argue on Twitter about, you know, whether the 2019 events with drones or UFOs, I'm like, I don't give a shit. I only need one. One of them is interesting is a worthwhile of scrutiny. And so when you've got 144 of them, and then they're mentioning a handful that have very interesting characteristics, I'm like, that's really fascinating. But it's hard to dig into just that

and get everybody to kind of focus on that because there's all these other little pig trails that go down there. And so it would be very nice to get clarity, whether it's McCaslin, whether it's GGSA, where there's Geelong. So we can just sweep that to the side. No hard feelings. You know, like, I'm not mad if it's all a big misunderstanding,

but let's kind of get through that. Because if not, even if it's just that one interesting something, it gets lost in the midst. And I think that's happened for decades. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead. And another thing, too, is like, so McCasden would say it's like a fiction book, right,

that he was working with, but, you know, there's some conflictions there, right? just assuming that he is talking about the passing in this particular email to Podesta and it's had the title of the email is Podesta and UFOs, right? Part of this email, he says because of his maturity on the topic, he is consistently given important information

to help communicate. He helped me create my thesis, three secret machines, non-fiction books coming out after the novel. And that the thesis is what gained in my friendship with the very important general from Wright Patterson that was on our call. So, you know, I can't help but to assume, like Zach said earlier. I mean, there's just the language there, right?

It causes you to just assume that he is talking about McCaslin, right? So, you know, that part right there, right? That's what we really need, like, transparency and clarification. Like, I understand, like, it kind of sucks to get your name out there to the public because some Russian hacker group decided to hack John Podesta and this famous rock star just kept named up in yours. Like put you in there like I didn't, right? Like I would just the same position to you.

Like I don't want to go out. I had nothing to do with this. Thank you, Assange. You know, like especially with this topic going on the news, becoming a thing. Congress is talking about it. You know, obviously it's a big deal. So, I mean, you're going to have people,

especially people like us who like to dig, really be. people just be like, what is this? And like, I'm really like, I wish it would just come out and clear it a little bit. I think we're all on the same page that like just one comment from McCasson would be enough to kind of put a lot of this, I guess, speculation to rest. But the big frustrating thing for me, and this is since the beginning of when he did all this, was the whole approach of half fiction, half truth. Because, God damn, welcome to euphology. That's all we deal with is two lies between a truth.

And the minute he said that, I was like, we're never going to know what's true and that's not. Tom was like, UFO people. Read between the lines. I know you guys. Read between the lines. My whole plan here is to do like professionally, exactly what has already been done for 70 years by everybody.

Right. But I think, you know, the other big, the important thing, and I think Tim stressed it most is that Tom is not, he's a smart person. And you're right. I think the way that he worked these people isn't so much deceptive,

but it's what someone would do. And it's what they do for a living, a lot of these people. I mean, Elizondo is a nice guy, but you can't tell me that he has not spun things. He has not manipulated things. That was his job. So I think it's really interesting.

Tom, like he went into the lion's den. And he played their game and like whether you like it or not. And I want to get your guys thoughts on this where we stand with everything today. But Zach, what were you going to say, man? Well, the Cajon is on Tom. So like full credit to Tom, regardless whether this is true or bullshit or whatever, the fact that he went in and did the things that he did, let's say for the sake of argument that it's true,

like he was just playing people off each other. cool like honestly it's back really from the story for me it actually makes it even more more funny or interesting or whatever because here's a thing here's a thing regardless whether or not

this general McCasland actually like sincerely believed the things that he supposedly told Tom or if that was BS like it doesn't really matter here we are several years later and the government has now issue to report on UAP.

And anybody who's been following this for the last, you know, four or five years, it's like you can draw a straight line between TTSA and all the stuff that Tom Belong was doing early on to now the people who are involved in literally lobbying the government are all the same people. Kudos to you, Tom. Like, my thing is I just want to disentangle the complete crap. from what's really interesting here because it's important if the government found a life form during the Cold War or not, right? And the only person who can clarify this at this point, and look, and if Tom made that up or whatever, like I feel for you, McHasland, I wouldn't want to come forward either.

But man, like, given the severity of the issue and the gravity of what's currently playing out in the media, now would be a good time is kind of the argument that I would make. And again, it's like you don't want to comment on this. You don't want to tarnish your name or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I see no downside to him coming out at this point other than like fear of an embarrassing Tom.

Like, okay. Yeah, maybe they are besties now. We don't really know. But like, right. Zach, you're so right. You came around when, like, with the 60 Minutes stuff and like even the report just coming out. And the primary focus being to shed the stigma and ridicule of military personnel reporting UAP events. And like, that's a huge admission and a huge switch from what they have done in the past.

So like, that's awesome. And you would hope that something like that would make people like McCastell and be like, oh maybe yeah maybe it's okay that i like say that i put tom in touch with people and hey tom everything tom said would it could be true yeah these are emails that like nobody wanted coming out right yeah i i don't know i have to infer i have to make guesses here and this is the thing and why i would like mccaslin to talk it's like i don't want to guess if there's you know either come out with a no comment if there's some truth to it or come out with a comment saying, hey, Tom reached out for a fictional UFO book and we were just chatting back

and forth and he's Tom fricking DeLong. Of course, I talked to him. Like, you know, like, either one of those is cool with me. My point is like, again, I like to go into the origins of things and understand things as best as I can. And when something sticks out like a sore thumb, like this McCaslin thing, again, that adds all this credibility for people to the whole story. It's like, we really got to work this out because regardless whether it's BS or not, we still have Elizondo, we still have Mellon, we still have these people going, going around in the media, we still have them lobbying government and an actual, at least two that I'm aware of, classified UAP briefings that were given to senators.

on top of, and then on top of that, it's like we got this report, 90 pages of which are classified. This actually all has happened because of these people. So, but it's important to establish these, these facts about what happened early on, I think, in order to be able to disentangle the rest of the story, if that makes any sense. Absolutely, man. Well, and I think that brings us to current day, which is two follow-up questions I want to ask you guys. is, you know, Tom has been kind of quiet

about everything going on right now with a UAP report and this and that. And you would think he would be like kind of taking credit for like, I got, I know he's put some tweets out, like this was because it's to the stars, this, that. But he seems to have been unusually quiet with that. Maybe it's because he's focusing on the entertainment side

of things with his band and his movies. But my question for you is, do you guys think? and maybe this is going out on a limb. Do you think the plan all along was like to get Tom to do this stuff and then for it to all dissolve?

Like you see you got Steve Justice went and it's now working for Virgin Galactic. You got Elizondo starting a startup company. Like they all kind of came in, did their thing and now they're all leaving. And kind of leaving Tom in the dust alone with all this. So like

do you think this was some sort of concerted effort to like dissolve this company that he had these big grand plans for all along? Or am I going really out on a conspiracy limit with that? I don't think so. Be honest, be honest. Well, I think that... I think it's considered ever-evidence, you know?

Yeah. You got to consider it. So I don't think you know. It just seems odd to me that they would all just leave this company that, like, they seem to be so dedicated to at the beginning. I don't know. What do you think, Tim? Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I don't think it's weird, but it doesn't have to be as conspiratorial or kind of, again, nefarious as it sounds. I think that if, you know, let's say you're Louis Alizondo, you're Chris Mellon, you're Steve Justice and the rest of them, and you legitimately believe that there are, you're this UFO subject, you recognize that there's evidence that maybe hasn't been presented and you feel like it needs to be taken seriously. I think, you know, and Zach's right in terms of, and I don't want anybody to think that I'm bashing along by any means.

when I said that he said some crazy shit. Hopefully he'd agree with me. But he is very successful businessman, and he's very successful. And I think that when it comes down to how he was successful in kind of getting to meet these people, it shows his savvy in business. And it shows that he's been successful, not just in the band that he helped form with Blinkwood 82, but after that, his career, his other ventures, he's successful. But one thing he is is he's loud, and he draws a lot of attention.

And there's something to be said about the crazy shit he says. You know, what other interviews did Joe Rogan do in November 2017? I don't know. I know he interviewed Tom DeLong because of what. And so it generates a significant amount of attention. However, once you get that attention, if you're going to bring it into the realm of legitimacy and you're having actual briefings with elected lawmakers, and you're sitting in front of the Joint Chiefs and the Secretary of Defense and these people, suddenly, you know, the guy who's the

leader of the company tweeting about alien Antarctic bases and Nazi conspiracies, that's not really conducive. And that's not going to no longer is it good. You've gotten that attention. So I don't think it has to be kind of a grand crazy conspiracy. I know a lot of people think that this is. And some of those theories, quite frankly, have been helped fostered by DeLong himself, that there's more of a government-organized kind of involvement in this

and bringing about a disclosure with a capital D. But I don't think it has to be that per se in an organized government fashion. I think if you're savvy and you know how to strategize things well, which I think is, I don't think anybody would argue that, somebody like Chris Mellon is very good at. And so I don't think Tom, you know, for a long time, I was like a lot of people, like, what the hell are these people doing with Tom DeLong? But it generated a ton of attention.

And I'm not so sure that that same type of attention could have been achieved by any one of those individuals without Tom. Oh, that's such a, such a good point, Tim. The fact that we are where we are today, like we got an official. Pentagon report. Maybe it wasn't what we all wanted or expected, but like this all built up to something that I don't think even Tom DeLong saw happening. He probably thought that a lot of this was going to happen with his company and like he was going to build a spaceship, an anti-gravitic spaceship and fly off to Mars, like mission accomplished, man. That's freaking awesome. But like, look at where we are

today. And like I do, and I've wanted to say this for a really long time and I haven't just come out and said it but like thank you tom to long like literally just thank you for what you did and like kind of putting putting it all out there and um he had a lot to lose with this with his reputation and whatnot and say what you want about where he is now and everything but like he really got a lot of this into motion and you know maybe macassan as well but i don't know i don't know maybe that's just a fan boy coming out in me i don't know how much have you had to drink Ryan, man. This is all the motion.

Oh, you're Tom, man. I'm sure gone, man. Welcome to Tom DeLong Fanboy Hour. I don't know. Dude, I like it. If I was McCaslin and if you're listening out there, General, just respond to Zach.

Yes, please. It's say, yeah, one line. It was the Cold War and we found a life form. Period. Sin. And like never answer another one. Like, how awesome. would that be? Oh my God.

Anyone could get it out of him. I think it would be Zach for sure. I sent a very long, heartfelt message on Facebook, you know, just letting him know, like, look, this stuff's really important to me. Here's why. And, you know, for him, I don't think it's, I don't think it's, I don't think it is that big of a deal, to be honest. I think, I agree. Yeah. I think that probably for him, he's probably like, I don't, I don't think a lot about this. and like I'd rather just get away from it. This is a total guess on my part. But I, you know, I still think it's important because, again,

this is this is my wannabe journalist coming out, I guess. Just establish the basic facts here. And, you know, there's a lot of other really interesting things about those emails that we haven't really even gotten into. Oh, yeah. Do you mind? Yeah. Give us a couple key points.

Look, Hillary Clinton is the one who introduced us to the term UAP. Now, that's not the first time the term was used, but it was certainly the first time that the American public, it was put in the zeitgeist of the American public, was she set it on Jimmy Kimmel's show. Well, who was the advisor to Hillary Clinton? It was John Podesta, who was Tom talking to, John Podesta. There's a lot of stuff here, right?

And Hillary, by the way, was talking about this issue not just like once, but like five or six times where she brought up UFOs and the UAP issue and talking about, yeah, we're going to get the files. She said the same thing that her husband said, right? And was she doing that to give votes? Doesn't seem like a great, you know, I don't know. I don't know what the calculus is on that. Is the UFO vote huge? I doubt it. I bet it's like actually the other way.

Right. Right. And so it's interesting to me just looking at the people who were involved, John Podesta. There were a couple other people involved with the Hillary Clinton campaign that Tom was emailing with. And, you know, the insinuation has been from that whole group of people that, like,

Hillary was going to be the disclosure president. She was going to be the one to like to do this. And nobody thought that it was even wrong. remotely possible that Trump could win, right? You know, we're not going to get political. But like, nobody thought it was possible. These people did not think it was possible.

They thought Hillary was going to be the one. And a bunch of people surrounding her were UFO believers. Okay. These are high-level people in government. Right. It's interesting. Well, Zet. You have to make note of it.

That's such a good point. And I think, Tim, I think it might have actually been you that I heard maybe on Micah Hank's show. or something similar saying where we would be in all, where we would be in all of this had Hillary become president and not Trump. And I, Tim, wasn't you that said like we would probably be a lot further had Hillary won than, I don't know.

Yeah, it wasn't me. Okay, I don't know. I don't know, but I will. Maybe it was Steve's fantastic. I'm true. Oh, I'm, thank you. Thanks for confusing me with Steve. I know.

I'm so sorry, man. I'm just kidding, Steve, if you're listening. Ryan's getting around. I'll bring a new wrinkle up into all of that, no, because I don't think it's been discussed by anybody, but I think it goes into what Zach's saying here. Hey, guys, Ryan Sprague here from somewhere in the skies. The podcast has always been and always will be

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Hi. I, uh, let's get you. basket. Here did those leaky weeks, where did those wiki leaks emails come from? We know that they came from Fancy Bear, which is GRU and the Russia's hacker group. Okay. So they hacked those emails in early 2016.

They didn't publish them on wiki leaks until, what was it, the fall of 16? Yeah, right before the election. Right. like days or not even hours I think yeah right all good yeah information warfare strategy but they had those early on and if you go back and look at early on shortly after they obtained those emails look into russia's english language news outlets so r t and sputnik they started pumping pumping UFO tabloid news into English reading markets.

They were dumping it hardcore. In fact, you can even find one foreign policy journalists commenting early summer 2016 saying, what the hell is going on with Russia and UFOs? They've become obsessed and they're dumping it on the American public. So they knew it was going to be something, which is very intriguing to all of it. And I think the other side of all of that as well

it is and what comes into not just McCaslin clarifying some things, but also Podesta, Tom DeLong, and a lot of other people is that one thing that plays through my mind is that part of how Russia's information warfare campaigns go through is they're masters at adding things in. They did it when the Snowden leaks. When you see the Snowden leaks, everything in the entire Snowden leaks was capabilities, you know, what the NSA can do, all these hacking capabilities. Only one single file showed operations, and that was them listening in and spying on German Chancellor Angela Markle. That was only operational file in there. And so that, you know, it's never been confirmed, but that's been reported that Russia just added that in. Now, that was probably a legitimate

intelligence intercept on their part, but they're notorious for adding things in, and including adding total bullshit in. They did it, you know, the KGB was masters at this, where they would actually get legitimate classified information, cables and different things from the U.S., and then they would just add little things in amongst actual classified information. They did it in the mid to late 80s with information saying that the United States had nukes hidden in different cities across the world and all this kind of stuff. Total bullshit, but everything

around it was legitimate secrets. Well, the government, because they know, I mean, it's a great info warfare play because the government's not going to comment on anything. They don't, they've never commented on the Snowden leaks. They don't comment on anything like that. So they're not going to say, that's BS,

because that'll say everything else is legitimate. So they can deny talking about everything. And so, that adds to the kind of mystique and intrigue here and that what I mentioned with that single source that we just have Tom talking on behalf of conversations that he have with it is I think like Zach said for me it's not just establishing what were those communications but are all of these communications legitimate because that is we have to understand where that information came from and it did absolutely come from Russian hackers.

It came from an information warfare campaign. I was so happy you brought that up, man. Look at what just the debrief just released too. It was all these like kind of satirical things about the U.S. being like, calm down about the UFOs guys. Ah, that's so telling, man. It's like this is all a counterintelligence sort of game. I think China's playing right now, Russia. Who's really at the top of all this stuff going on in the U.S.?

I don't know. Well, no, you're absolutely right. And that's something that, you know, I'm actually working on the next big piece. Gosh, let's hope the Kremlin isn't listening, but it has to do with that. And it has to do with Russia's involvement in the UFO subject that they don't want to talk about, that they do want to talk about. And, you know, I'm not trying to, like Zach said, we're not going to get political here. So I don't want everybody to go, oh, it's the goddamn Russian hoax again.

So I'm not blaming the Russians for everything here. And more importantly, I'm blaming the criminal, not the Russian people, they're great people. It's their government that's mean. But I would say that there's significant evidence that Russia has been involved in some of the UFO mythology that we take as self-evident fact going back to the 1980s. And so there goes not to add a new wrinkle into everything that you've got to parse through to figure out what is true and what isn't. But how many UFO missed that we have accepted as fact now or we've played off as being illegitimate, but their hoaxes perpetrated by people we assume? Or were they just legitimate information operations done by a foreign government?

And I think that's a very significant point because, again, it's, you know, give the devil their due. You know, it's half a smart credit. If I make you believe that there's crash UFOs at Airman. Material Command at Army Air Force Research Labs at Wright Patterson, and you track down all of these people, and you keep talking about it, and you keep putting it out by UFOs. I may not even believe you're going to get UFOs, but damn, if you can get some good actual secrets, you know, I'm not working on UFOs, I'm working on directed energy.

Oh, Senator Jay, you hear that? It's a good work on their part. Yeah, yeah. Well, Tim, it turns out. I am actually Russian the whole time That's a great accent I'm probably going to get the microwave beam Yeah

This is me Vasia The Havana syndrome's coming right here Shit You got a good Russian accent there man I believe he did the whole time Yeah I work with many Russian people in fast It's okay

Yeah It's an excellent one It's an excellent one And I want to make sure That everybody knows I'm not trying to make Russia the boogeyman here, but I do think there are, I mean, down to the fact that, you know, one of RT's darlings is Stephen Greer, because why the hell not? I mean, he's like a propaganda gift from God, you know? I'm so happy you went there, man. I wanted to touch you on that. Yeah. You know, no, yeah. I mean, it's, you know, what is it? It's the U. I mean, it's the U.S. government is the boogeyman and everything. And, and,

you know, but it's never Russia or it's never China. Like it's like, the U.S. is the one who's going to do the alien false flag. I'm like, well, what the hell is everybody else going to do? Sit around and hang out. You know, like, so, you know, again, but, you know, you've, you know, Greer has done interviews on RT, which, like I said, you can't pay for that. Now shit, maybe they do pay for it. I don't know. You can't pay for that kind of gold where they're talking about, you know, I've had CIA's killed members of my team.

I have to be careful. I mean, I'm like, you're not. We have to call Oliver Stone for that kind of good stuff. Right, man. Get him on the script. Well, let me ask you guys this. Kind of in wrapping things up here, where we are today, we have the Pentagon here in the United States,

flat out saying it's not Russia that we know of. It's not China that we know of. They're nowhere near where we are with advanced technology. And it's not U.S. technology. So where does that leave us? I mean, a lot of the very pro-UFO people are like, that's the way of saying it's alien. Well, guys, calm the fuck down.

Like, let's be completely honest here. But where does that leave us? What is the Pentagon trying to tell us? Or what are they trying to tell other, you know, adversaries in that statement that it's not them, it's not us? What could it be? I mean, where is the boogeyman in all of that? And why is this still a potential threat in their eyes?

Who wants to comment on that? Great. I mean, it really could be a burden. I need to explain myself by saying that. It's that, well, I can imagine that they can look at, like, let's say, flight logs to see if that was our technology. And so if it doesn't match up, well, obviously it's not. If it's not Russian or Chinese technology, well, this is an unidentified object. Yeah.

It's not hour 10. It's a little blob floating around. It could be a bird. We've got an aspiring Mick West on our hands here. This is amazing. A really fascinating seagull. She makes a point, though. She makes a point, and I want to clarify it, because I see it

on Twitter when my name gets tagged every now and then. First and foremost, because it was to Zach. So, Zach, I'd like to say that me and Tom Rogan were correct. When we said it was, we had 99% certainty, that it was not U.S. technology or a foreign state actor. Good call. See what you did there. Yes, that is what we said. But it was interesting because people, I've since, like, people type, but McMillan and Rogan said it's alien.

And I'm like, no, no, no. I said I was 99% certain. It wasn't U.S. or not state actor. Not man-made. Right. That doesn't rule out, you know, atmospheric phenomena. It doesn't rule out birds. It doesn't rule out.

In fairness, it doesn't rule out aliens. I was just saying, like, based on the totality of what we have at hand, we can say with pretty good certainty there. And to answer your question, right? What does that mean? I don't know. You know, that's what's intriguing there. And I think for me, maybe it's not as, my expectation isn't as broad that people are like, all 144 have to be alien.

Quite frankly, I'm not even certain that in the balance of probabilities that alien is the best scenario of all the exotics, frankly. There's a lot of other exotic things. And in fact, ancient aliens have been running for 18 seasons. If you listen to that, they've been here for, you know, how many thousands, tens of thousands of years of shit. At what point are they native? Not alien anymore. When are we? The aliens.

Yeah. For sure, right. Yeah. So, uh, there is a, there's a. Yeah. Well, you, that you touch on something. We, that seems to be the narrative that's being pushed by a lot of people right now is it's not human, but we don't mean it's alien.

So like, what does that mean? We're hearing people say it's like interdimensional. It's time travelers. It's this. It's that. Like, it seems to be across the board. people like Elizondo, people like George Knapp, Jim Semivin. They're all saying Eric Davis that this is, it's like a neighbor next to us that we never knew was there.

Like, what do you guys think about that? Chattow Biome? Listen, I've always said that if I had to pick all of them, just because I, you know, I like tragic irony, is that, you know, it turns out that it's, you know, we all live in a big simulation. We're all in some AI, and it's just the engineers in the system. And then, you know, we find that out. We're like, oh, my God, this is horrible. There's anything we don't want to know. Like, it doesn't matter.

You can be deleted at any moment. And so I don't know. You know, that's, there's, maybe that's part of the fun is parsing through all the different, you know, what ifs. You know, what if, sure, it's fun. It's fun. It's fun. I don't, you know, maybe it's fun if they're people that live in the middle of the earth. Or it's, you know, man, I think, Tom.

since he's been the subject of our conversation significantly. I think it's Atlanteans, right? Atlantis is in play. Yeah. Aquiferian. Yeah. Why do you think this all happened off a Catalina Island? Like, come on, come on.

They're wine fans. They like the Catalina wine mixer, Tim. We circle back to Stepbrothers. Well, I kind of like, all right, one more question for you guys. Before we wrap things up here, I've taken a. enough of your time. Where do we go from here? We had everything Tom built up and kind of brought out.

We now have a report that came out from the Pentagon. We've got the Department of Defense saying, we're going to keep looking into it. We're going to put a full-time staff on this. And yeah, we're ready to really tackle this subject with the American public. Like, where do you guys think we're going next with this when it comes to the government? And where do you want us to go with this if they're even different? So, Zach, let's start with you, man.

What comes next for the whole UFO question for you? I don't think you know you're asking here. Here we go for another half hour. No, I'm kidding. Oh, man. Well, I'm going to quote my friend Bradley, who I have conversations with all the time about the subject with. You ask, where do we go from here? And my only response to that is a statement.

This sucks. It sucks. This really sucks. And the reason, I mean, I'm just being 100% blunt, right? I love it. It sucks because growing up, I always felt that there should be adults and officials and representatives and people that care. about other people that represent me or something like that. And I think the idea that this entire story has managed to get as far as it has

for as long as it has, now culminating in what we now see playing out, where we are saying it's not this, it's not that. And we're kind of playing games like, well, maybe it actually could be a bird because we didn't say, we just said not man-made. We didn't say it couldn't be a bird. But this is, I want to be,

like, just to be serious for a second, it's, it's very serious. I don't like the idea of what's, of the game that we're being forced to play, to kind of put it in kind of Eric Weinsteinian terms. I feel like we're being forced to play a game

where we don't have any information. Where all the information, is behind classified walls where all the people that could elucidate and help us understand this topic and understand what's going on, they won't talk. We're even, you know, even the people that have been on the periphery as players,

like Tom's along, won't talk, not coming on my show, not coming on this show. This sucks. And I'm willing to say that it sucks. and it, I have hope on the basis of like what we're seeing play out that that maybe we'll get to something like an answer. But at the same time, I can't help but feel like maybe we're also just all being played.

You know, there's sort of like no version of this that isn't one of the biggest stories ever. And there's no version of this that isn't really kind of crappy because like we're being deceived. and it doesn't matter by who at this point. It just, for me, for someone who this topic affects personally, and it goes back a long time, I have a lot of frustration built up over all this stuff. And like, there's a reason why I'm like, McCaslin, come on, man, like, just clear this up.

We need to start getting some facts in order, is how I feel. And, you know, it starts with people. people coming forward and talking. I don't know any other way because the government is so complex and so compartmentalized that the information that we need, I don't know if it's ever going to come out. So anyway, that's my really long answer to that. No, man, I appreciate that because I know you have a lot of personal stake in this topic, as many of us do. That's why we got involved with it. We're all into this topic of UFOs for our own personal reasons. And I think that's completely understandable that you're frustrated and that it sucks

because you're right. No matter where we turn, no matter who's saying what, it's all just a game. And we have to try to decipher every goddamn word they're saying to get to any truth. And I think that's kind of why I wanted to bring you guys together, not to like figure out was McCassel and the guy that Tom talked to. Because inevitably, that doesn't mean shit at the end of the day. But it's a matter of trying to figure out where the core truth started with all of this that has happened in the past three years that everyone says is like the beginning of the real euphology, you know, with all these new people who've been interested in the topic, Brit included. And I'm not saying that like, you know, in terms of like in ignorance to the topic, like you have a lot to process and

comprehend and go back and look at what has happened before all this. Because you look at a lot of the people who've been involved with the UFOs for a long time. And they've been saying from the very start with all this Tom DeLong stuff, like, you're going to get burned, you're going to get pissed, and you're not going to get any answers. And look at the conversation we're having right now. So no matter how much I love Tom DeLong and his music and like, I bought the fucking t-shirt, I bought the books. Like, I'm sitting here myself being like, God damn.

Like, just tell us something of substance that we can work. on. So that's my reckons. Brit, where do you stand on all of this? What do you want to happen next with all of this? And yeah, what do you have hopes for? I have conflicting motions. Good. I want to hear him. Let's do it. Well, it's been conflicting because I understand the importance of our national security. And so, you know, I think the question is, is transparency or disclosure on this topic going to put us in more danger? Yeah. If it does, quite honestly, I don't want disclosure. I would prioritize safety of the people before disclosure. On the flip side, though, there is a way to be transparent.

And, you know, like you said, give us substance. none of this he say she say none of this like oh I've got an NBA I got to be behind give us substance that is the main thing that drives me crazy about this topic is that

and the reason why I dig so hard especially considering that I've only been in this what what a month and a half now and she literally looked at her calendar I love that yeah look the amount of information that I have pulled up, I have a stack of paper like this thick already, a PDF file

stuff printed out, like these scientific reports that I've read through, you know, like it was just all kinds of stuff, right? And at the end of the day, you know, I'd like to have fact-based evidence and I like to make like a belief or something behind that based on the facts. they're like infer the situation based on the facts but at the end of the day there's still hardly any substance just to explain it to me like I'm a five-year-old you know

seriously yeah and so like if there's a way that you can explain it to not only me but the public in general like we're five years old what is actually going on without putting us in danger I'm all for it explain it to me like I'm Tom's along at an airport restaurant

Exactly. No, I love that, Brett. And like, the struggle, I think, for a lot of UFO people is we agree with you. Like, we don't want to risk national security. We don't want to, you know, hinder anyone's classification or security clearances. But we also want the information that we know hides behind those. But so it's hard. It's such a catch-22. That's why we drink. That's why we've been doing this for 70 plus. But like another thing that we have to consider too is that, you know, I live in the South, right? I live in the Bible Belt. I've already talked to like my family and friends about this because, you know, like this is where my nose is at right now, right? You know, the majority of them have told me it's demons. A lot of people believe that being transparent and having disclosure about this is not going to really affect people in that way. But that is not true. I can say that from personal experience.

I might have made one status about it on Facebook. I hardly ever go on Facebook, right? But I did make one status about it. And one of my friends just went on there and said, you need to stop researching this because that's the devil pulling you in. I've been told that as well. Yep. I've been told as well that what I do is a sin.

Yeah. Right. And so like that's another thing. There's just so many problems that could occur. from being honest about the situation. But at the same time, it's just really like what is more important being honest. If ET is actually out there

or if parallel universes, if we're in a simulation, if we understand this and know this and we have factual based evidence to prove this, what is more important to keep the harm in? I don't know that answer. And that is something I still think about to this day. Like, I don't know the answer.

but it's a good question to ask and I think again that's why we're at where we're at now so Tim bring it home for us man what do you want next what do you hope for like do you have any faith that we're ever going to get answers I know that's a lot but no I was just thinking about what a shit burger would be if what if it really is demons you know what it's like well hey let's be up front we know that members of the Department of Defense and what A-Tip, like a lot of them thought that. They were uber religious people who thought that this was demonic, and they said, stop going to skin walk a ranch, you're going to fucking bring a demon out.

Like, this is real. These people's religious beliefs affect the information we're getting and the furtherance of science looking at this stuff. Well, and strangely enough, as long as it remains unknown, I mean, can we write anything off? Yeah. But no, I totally actually, what Zach said really resonates with me and the same with what Britt said. And I think that the idea that it sucks right now is a good way of kind of sum of things up. And I will say that without naming any names, that I think there's a lot of mainstream journalists who've been covering this in the last year, you know, last few months, all those kind of stuff who feel the same way.

primarily because, okay, we got to this point. And I think that for me and my part of looking into this for the past couple years was trying to determine if what was initially being said by people like Lelizondo, Chris Mellon, others, Tom, you know, there were objects of unknown origin that were unidentified, they were actually being encountered, you know, within military airspace. And, you know, on highly sensitive surveillance systems, highly sophisticated, integrated systems, we should be able to kind of weed out a lot of the other misidentifications that, you know, the normal person on the ground might not be able to. And I think when the report came out, that was substantiated. You know, that was validated. And so where we're at now is this idea that there's these unknowns that,

are encountered or captured on systems, that at least enough has been validated. So now from that point forward in terms of what is it, I think the burden of proof is on the ones making the claims. And that's where I think the most frustrating thing, and that's where it sucks, like Zach said. And like Brits said, where's the evidence based behind that is that you cannot ask and you shouldn't ask or expect anyone, especially if you're talking about something that I want to make sure that we really put this into perspective as what it is, if you're saying it's, quote, aliens, this would be the most significant discovery in human history since the advent of

language. That's a huge fucking deal. And so you cannot and should not be willing to ask anyone. It doesn't matter if you're a member of Congress or you're a random person on Twitter. You shouldn't get mad or expect anyone to accept that as being the absolute truth or accept that as being what the conclusion is without more than we have right now. You know, the burden of proof lies on those ones making the claims. And so what, quote, it is and what is behind that, I think it's going to have to come out. Somebody is going to have to prove that point. and I understand that for a lot of people, it's like, well, you know, release some pictures and videos, but, you know, it's going to have to be even more than that. When we're talking about something as significant as what some people claim, that this is, and like you mentioned earlier, right, this is, we'll just, we'll throw it on the umbrella of non-human something, a technological origin.

Yeah, you know, even, you know, especially in today's day and age where pictures and videos, you know, can be altered to Photoshop. Like, you're not going to convince the world and people that that's true with just a picture of video. And so I think the burden of proof is there. And so I'd say it sucks because I don't know where to predict where it will go from here, primarily because if it is a truly, unknown. Let's take what the government is saying at face value. It is truly unknown and there is no crash Roswell bodies or if there is they've lost them. It's turning to Raiders the law start. Just knowing how the government handles that and Britt really touched on that is you're not, you don't talk about that until it's known. You're not going to talk about it. And so I think that

if there is going to be any resolution here, it's going to have to expand beyond the conversation that's just being had by the Department of Defense. Because, you know, and I shared this when I did my kind of analysis of that report and tried to, I know, MJ, our editor, God bless him, love MJ. You know, he's like, Jesus Christ, you do like the history of intelligence here. And I'm like, no, I think it's important that people understand how intelligence is done, how the defense, you know, intelligence works, and how that differs. from science because people are like, where are the pictures and videos? That's science, ladies and gentlemen. Science is up front. It provides you all the data, all the information so that you can

verify and replicate the results. That is not intelligent. And so, you know, that's, it's important there. And we're not going to get what people want from the Department of Defense. I know that's a, that's a real kick in the balls for some people. That's not how it works. And so I think that, you know, short of unless there's a, going to come out and say, all right, you know, here it is something, it is X, it's aliens, it's whatever, then they would have to provide that data. But I think that it's going to be, it's kind of now parsing in the world where it is a legitimate scientific problem, which means it's going to take actual research from scientists using sophisticated technologies

to detect this stuff and not just, you know, not just us being forced to go out there with some binoculars. and take a video and post it on YouTube or whatever. So I hate to sound pessimistic, but I hope there's something different. And I think this is now for me where the point that, like you mentioned, Ryan, that people have been saying this, well, yeah, we've been down this road before, ladies and gentlemen.

They're not wrong. And so the question is, what's going to be different here? And so I think some of the biggest thought leaders here, I think it's on them. People like Lou or Chris or whoever, we're sitting here. I'd say it's on you guys now. If these claims that have been said, let's figure out a way to disclose that so that we can kind of come to that same conclusion. Right.

And Tim, I think you hit the nail on the head to kind of drive this all home. The burden of proof lies with those who have the claims. So those who have the claims, show us. show us what that is. But also, I think the thing you stress mostly, most importantly, is like, don't look to the Department of Defense for answers to this. Don't look to the Pentagon. It truly lies with our scientists. Like, that's what we've all been saying this whole time, is like we want the scientific proof to understand these phenomena. Like, we don't, everyone has their own stakes in this, whether it's alien, interdimensional, time travelers, demons, angels. I don't care. Like,

it lies in what we know here on our planet with the most brilliant people that we consider our most important scientists. So like, I don't think it's pessimistic. I think it's hopeful that, like, science can now have an important place in this because they have denied it for so long. First and foremost, it was like taboo to talk about this to look into it. Still is in some respects. But look at how many independent scientists are willing to dive into this and work with the government. So I think you're right. Like let's stop looking at the Pentagon for answers. And let's start looking at our scientists who are out there and crave things like this, you know, like that burning curiosity of what comes next.

And let's present a scientific argument. Oh, sorry to cut you off. Oh, no, no, no. Yeah, sorry. I was going to say and just keep having these conversations. And like, we need to keep talking and we need to, you know, the number one thing, that I've learned in the time that I've been a part of this community is just like have empathy for each other. Like everybody is, everybody's probably wrong.

Yeah, okay. That's very true. I'm not, you know, I don't know, you know, aside from Lou Elizondo, who very well might know all the secrets or whatever, like, we're all probably, uh, pretty off the mark or we have part of the truth or whatever. But you know what? like the thing that matters that we have each other's back and that we we have empathy for one another and look this is a topic that like it uh it affects people in ways that i don't think is appreciated often enough like people are very vulnerable and and like when the government releases a vague UFO report you're not again i mentioned this on uh on um on ucr but like you're not you're not

just gaslighting us, the UAP people or whatever. It's the whole spectrum of people that, like, they need something. They're all looking for something. And it could be the people that believe Dave Wilcoq. Could be us who are a little more rational, right? Or it could be people that think it's all demons. And you're in, and by being vague, you know, I've talked to Tim about this. It's like, this is almost like to the point where it's a bigger national security.

threat to continue to be vague. Exactly. And whatever the truth is. Okay. And that's kind of where I've landed with this. But anyway, I didn't mean to, didn't mean to interject there. Yeah. You're spot on, Zach.

And I think it, in fact, it rolls right into exactly what I was going to say, which was there needs to be some scientific arguments presented here instead of emotional arguments. And that is on both sides. And I mean that. And that's what's been very fuss. For me is because I have seen that same thing. You know, hats off to Mick West, even though I battle with him and, you know, even though I was wrong recently, am I one of my battles, I was glad to say I was wrong to him.

I have no problem with that. But at least he shows some type of experiments. He's trying to show something and prove something. And, you know, it's frustrating to me, even when I've seen, because I feel like we're, I feel like I keep hitting on the quote believers. But I want to say the critics and skeptics have been very frustrated. because it's, it's, you know, I just read an article not long ago about how the, the threat of conspiracy culture and UFO culture, coming from a psychology background, I'm like, that's an easy social psychology experiment.

Make that a scientific argument, not an emotional argument, or you're just as bad as the people who are sitting there, you know, saying it's aliens. And so that's what frustrating is there's a more palatable disagreement. It's like, well, this is, this is much more acceptable for me to say, but it's not a scientific argument, easy. You know, prove that there's a link between conspiracy culture and UFOs. There may very well be, but that's a scientific argument. And so that's what's frustrating is that on both sides, if you're going to dismiss it at this point

or you're going to prove it, make that argument legitimately. And let's not have an emotional argument. Because like that just said, as long as you keep it into emotional argument, then you're going to keep it into a realm of belief where it will be quasi-religious. and it's going to be, you have zealots, you're going to have a lot of emotion involved on both sides.

And so we should all kind of be better than this. And like Zach said, and we should be willing to accept results no matter what they are, whether they prove it's not a bird or whether they prove it is a bird. We should be able to accept that. Because at the end of the day, I don't, I like the real aliens, not the fake ones. It could be dolphins.

Or dolphins. Oh, guys. Yeah, please, Brit. I remember. I'm sorry. Another thing that we have to remember is that it is so healthy for a community to have people on opposing ends of a discussion. Because just like Tim just said, you know, you don't have somebody challenging a hypothesis.

Eventually, it will purely be emotional and that tends to lead into cult-like mindsets. and like it just it I really don't understand why people do get so emotional over someone discussing the other side of the argument if our goal here is to get to the truth we need both people it's simple absolutely we don't need a cold exactly and I think you know we look at whether you're looking at a believer or a skeptic it's not so much like the enemy is one in other. Like, we all are looking for the same thing, the truth. The enemy is the vagueness and the people who actually have the answers, but aren't willing to bring them forward. Or maybe they don't know the answers. Like, that's a completely understandable thing, too. Like, who, maybe nobody has the answers, and we're all just using this malleable phenomenon to, like, appease our own beliefs and

whatnot. But, you know, that's a conversation for a whole other time. I think. think you guys, you hit the nail on the head. This started as a conversation about like a possible general telling Tom DeLong something. But I think we ended with like what's most important about this. It's like we just want a base truth like Zach said. And we don't have that because we're just getting claims from the very start of all this stuff that's come forward in the past few years. So I'm glad we like went back and looked at this.

Some people might not find it beneficial to their own research. or interest, but I think it's important to like point out the fact that like this all started with this possible one man, McCasteland, and nobody questioned it and nobody pushed it. And nobody's challenging Tom DeLong. And maybe that's because no one can get a hold of it. That's a whole other thing. But at the end of the day, like, yeah, just tell, like, if you're going to make these claims, back it up.

That's the most simplest way to say it. So I guess that's kind of where I want to leave it, guys. That's all the time we had for today on somewhere in the skies. I have to thank Zach. I have to thank Britt. I have to thank Tim for all your time today, guys. I hope we illuminated some of the mystery behind this whole McCastland thing. But I think more importantly, we brought up a lot of the other things that we should look forward to in terms of this topic.

And like, you know, just keep having these conversations. Like Zach and Britt said, I think that's very important. important. I think it's awesome that science is going to become a bigger part of all this. And there's a lot to look forward to, no matter what the naysayers might say. So with that, guys, I'm going to say good night. And I'm going to thank you once again for coming on Somewhere in the Skies. Thank you, John. Thank you. Somewhere in the Skies is part of the Somewhere Podcast Universe. Please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. To learn more about all of our shows, visit the SPU

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