Song Exploder - Gracie Abrams - I Love You, I'm Sorry

Episode Date: December 4, 2024

Gracie Abrams is a singer and songwriter from Los Angeles. She started putting out music in 2020, and in June 2024, she put out her second album, The Secret of Us. She was nominated for a Grammy for Best New Artist, and this year she’s up for another Grammy, for Best Duo Performance, for her collaboration with Taylor Swift. But for this episode, I talked to Gracie about her song “I Love You, I’m Sorry.” It was produced by Aaron Dessner, at Long Pond Studio in upstate New York, and it was co-written with Audrey Hobert.Coming up, you’ll hear the isolated tracks from the studio recording, but you’ll also get to hear a lot of the voice memos that Gracie recorded during the writing process. I think it’s so nice to have these raw moments documented because, as you’ll hear, they give you an insight not just into the song, but into the relationship that Gracie and her co-writer Audrey have as friends.For more, visit songexploder.net/gracie-abrams. 

You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs, and piece by piece tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishi Kesh Hirwe. This episode contains explicit language. Gracie Abrams is a singer and songwriter from Los Angeles. She started putting out music in 2020, and in June 2024, she put out her second album, The Secret of Us. She was nominated for a Grammy for Best New Artist,

and this year she's up for another Grammy for Best Duo performance for her collaboration with Taylor Swift. But for this episode, I talked to Gracie about her song, I Love You, I'm Sorry. It was produced by Aaron Dessner at Long Pond Studio in upstate New York, and it was co-written with Audrey Hobert. Coming up, you'll hear the isolated tracks from the studio recording, but you'll also get to hear a lot of the voice memos that Gracie recorded during the writing process. I think it's so nice to have these raw moments documented because, as you'll hear, they give you an insight not just into the song, but into the relationship that Gracie and her co-writer Audrey have as friends. That's just the way. Okay, I'm recording on my side.

We're recording as well. Great. Ready? I'm a very open book, so I'm ready to get into all of it. Let's start at the beginning. Do you happen to remember the exact moment when the idea for this song first came to you? Oh, yeah. I had just made a plan to hang and talk with my ex-boyfriend, who I used to write lots of songs about.

And at this point, was he already your... X? Yeah, it had been like two years, like having never run into each other, you know, no real communication. I had just felt so much, not even residual love, but just like real love for somebody who was so significant in my life and such a formative partner. And I think having had a couple years of space, there was more room than ever for not only like reflecting on all that was, but also just kind of fantasizing about a world in which everything's cool between us. Was there something that prompted this conversation that you were going to have with your ex? Was there an event or something? How did it end up being that you were going to reconnect?

We were both going to be our home around the holidays and it wasn't some dramatic thing, It was very significant for me to reconnect at all. Audrey Hobart, who's my roommate and dear friend and a co-writer on I Love You, I'm Sorry, and on a handful of other songs on the album. She and I were sitting outside in our tiny courtyard situation. And I just had the first line of the song come into my head immediately. And it was one of those moments where we were like in the middle of a conversation. And I told Audrey, hold on.

I ran inside, grabbed the guitar, and that was the start of it. I just had two Augusts ago in my head immediately with the chords. There was something very nostalgic about those chords, and it was around Christmas time because we had our Christmas tree in the house, and I remember it feeling very, like, holiday spirit charged through the house, which helped when kind of being all, like, sappy. That was all I had in my head initially, and I think there's a huge chance if I had started that by myself, I wouldn't have actually ended up believing in it much. But with Audrey and I, it's like, I remember after starting it, writing the first bit, she was so like, fuck yes, like, let's chase it.

She really brought the energy when I was more so just like nostalgic and a little blue. Yeah, I find that a lot of times I will throw an idea away immediately after writing it. But if I write with somebody else and if they sing it back, then suddenly I'm like, oh, well, it's nice when you sing it. And I don't know what is it a self-esteem thing? I don't know. I think there is something that will never not feel slightly embarrassing or, like, cringe about putting my feelings to song. Like, who do I think I am even? But having somebody else in the room to back you, yeah, it makes a huge.

difference. And especially when it's someone who can say, I think that's a good line, and what about this for the next line? Totally. Find someone to date? I just think and I'll be something and find someone to date. And that's just the way life goes. I'll be a ho. Find someone today. Yeah. I'll make it known and find someone to date. Ooh. Wait, write that down. Who's saying ooh there? Audrey, I said I'll make it known. I'll make it. get known, and she goes, ooh, that's what I mean. It's like the nod of like, that's kind of funny. That's kind of a thing. It's so funny to listen back. Like, in my head, there was never an alternative lyric to any of these. I'm like, everything felt like it just came out. But then

listening back, I'm like, ew, find someone to date is terrible. Thank God. We didn't keep that. Yeah, yeah. Can you tell me more about your relationship with Audrey? How did you end up writing songs together. We met when we were 10 years old and then went to middle school together and we were on the same bus to school and so we'd sit with each other and music was always kind of the core of our relationship. Like her mom is like, she's just like the coolest voice to me and I remember like growing up always hearing her saying and being so impressed that she could like harmonize just like immediately and Audrey kind of taught me how to do that when we were really little and I taught her how to like hold a melody when someone's like harmonizing and we'd sit on the bus and just do it.

that. And as we grew up, we never ever even talked about writing music together, but when we moved in together two years ago, it just started happening one day because we kind of like riff off of each other so much. But what she brings out in me is a kind of self-assuredness and confidence. It was a side of my personality that I have struggled to infuse into my music. And I was really grateful to her for that specifically. And how different is your songwriting conversation from your regular conversation? It's not all that different. I think what's really cool about writing with somebody that you do know so well. No one's feelings are getting hurt, so it's very blunt and very fast as a result.

We're oftentimes going with the line that makes us laugh the hardest. And that's what kept it feeling so conversational the whole time as we were really just like, making each other laugh in the face of big, uncomfortable new adult feelings. But I think it was funny, like, even, you know, for this when I was listening back to our voice memos, there are so many moments where we will say the same thing at the same time. That doesn't mean we always land on that or keep it, but, yeah, I think something happens cognitively with the two of us where we are on the same page often. Yeah, but it's okay for sure.

Like, and you won't be here, but that's okay. Like, or like, and. I might, like, I might not feel real. Like, maybe, like. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I'm, I literally love I might not feel real.

But it's okay. But it's okay. Yeah. Sick. One of the things I love in one of the voice members you sent me, there's a little exchange between you and Audrey. That's like, uh,

The sun's set on the way. That's sick. That's great. And it's real. And it's real. So funny. So can you tell me about that? What was the real part of that?

The real part was my family. My family is from Maine, and my grandparents live on a lake in Maine that I have grown up. It's just like a very significant place in my life. And anybody who knows me knows that that is, where I run away too and where I think about everything too hard. Can I ask you more about the sense of humor between you two? Yeah.

Because it's so much easier to laugh with a friend, but it's hard to laugh just by yourself, and especially if you're trying to write a song that is emotionally true, it might be hard to squeeze jokes into it or things that are funny. Is this the sort of thing that can only emerge in that context with Audrey? The thing, one of the things that's so magical about Audrey is like, I think she is somebody that like in the greatest way talks to herself a lot, makes herself laugh a lot. So I think like I bring less of that to the table when I'm by myself.

But I think it's one of the things that I've always valued about our friendship is that in the face of tough feelings, we're never not laughing somewhere. I'd love to ask you about the bridge for this song because it feels so different from the from the verse and the chorus. I think most of the bridges on this album are like the kind of manic thought perspective, kind of like just going off, like rattling quite quickly. And I definitely wanted like rhythmically a change to happen. I was a dick, it is what it is. I was a dick. It is what it is. A habit to kick.

A habit to kick an age-old curse. When I'm writing, lyrics and recording voice memo. It's like so rarely actually in a speaking voice or a singing voices. It's like really ugly, horrible, like in between like mumbling where I'm not even enunciating. I think it's like a mouth feel thing maybe that I do that. I don't know what the fuck. It's so horrible. What do you mean a mouth feel thing? Just like how a word like sort of sits in your mouth. It's stupid. But it's, I'm always so embarrassed. I like. No, no. I like that. I like that. I I think you're right. I see what you're saying.

You're being very generous that you're saying, you know what I mean. No, I think because you don't just have to consider what the word means and how it relates to whatever the lyric is before. But you have to think about the actual, I think mouthfield is the right word. Right? Yeah. So there's another voice memo that I have from you that is basically a demo of the whole song. And it's not just you singing. It's you and Audrey both singing. Yes. Like, whenever I'm inside, I stare at the crash.

It actually works, making amends. The shit never ends. I'm wrong again. Okay, so that moment where at the end of the bridge, she goes up to wrong again, how much thought and conversation had gone into that? Or was that just something that she just did? Pure riff. Really? Yeah, literally, yeah.

This was the first time that I was writing with a friend who has a fucking amazing voice, whose personality is. More extroverted than mine is when I'm alone, who, like, when we are a recording, will go off like she did in this voice memo. And that, you know, inspires me and I had not been somebody that, like, even considered being more extroverted with my vocals. Wrong again. The way goes joy riding down or road lay on. Prove that it haunts me. My conversation with Gracie Abrams continues after this. I have a new album of my own coming out on April 24th.

It's been about 15 years since I last put out a full length, and this is the first one that'll be out under my own name, Rishikesh her way. I started making Song Exploder when I was feeling lost in my own music career. And then for over a decade, I've gotten to have these incredible conversations about the process of making music talking to other artists, and it made me completely rethink my relationship to music and my way of writing songs, and this album is the product of all of that. It features contributions from some of my favorite artists, including some folks that you may have heard on this podcast, like Iron and Wine,

Kevin Morby, Vagabon, Fenlily, and the producer Phil Weinrobe. I'm going to be on tour playing in cities across the U.S. starting in April, and I'm trying to bring the spirit of the podcast with me. So every show that I'm playing will begin with a conversation about the album with a different amazing guest moderator in each city, like Adam Scott. Samin Nasrat, Jason Manzukas, Josh Molina, Minjin Lee, Ken Jennings, John Roderick, Austin Cleon, and more. They're all going to be my conversation partners on stage, and then I'll play with my band. The album is called In the Last Hour of Light, and the first couple songs are out now. You can listen to the music and get tickets for the shows on my website, rishikash.co.

Or just go to songexploder.net slash live. That's songexploder.net slash live. Live. Thanks. So after you finished writing the song, how did you end up working with Aaron Dessner as the producer? I had been a fan of the National since I was like 11 years old. Like as soon as I got an iPod, I was listening to the National all the time. And I think it was like kind of that preteen and then like teen angst, you know, where their sad dad thing. Like that to me. As a 12 year old girl. For some reason as a 12 year old girl. Yeah, like really hit. So I was a huge fan for years and years and years. Who's playing this guitar part?

Aaron is. I'm curious why that is, because you play the guitar in the demo. So why did you have him play the guitar part? He's a fucking genius at guitar. He is so good, you know, for the sake of time, which we didn't have much of. I was like, you'll nail this the first time. And then we can build the rest of the world. I knew I wanted it to stay on acoustic guitar.

I knew I wanted lap steel. I wanted it to feel full and warm. I told the truth, oh, but you didn't like it. You went home by the gate. So how does the story unfold in this first verse? I came to this person with feelings that were real. It didn't align with maybe what they wanted or expected. They drove away, I stayed at home.

And then I had this petty line in the song, just, we're not together. You go alone to all these events, to all these dinners, all these things. Like, you're primed for this kind of group of people, this environment. You're wildly charming, it works. But, like, I'm over here judging it, like a dick. Now you go alone, charm all the people. People you train for you mean well, but aim low. That's a great, vicious line.

You mean well, but aim low. That's brutal. That's fucked up. That's the petty part. And then immediately I was just like, okay, it would be nice if we can make this song feel like there are chapters to it where it's like we're not just living in one tiny moment, but we're like past, present, future.

Two summers from now will I've been talking. but not all that often we're cool now. I'll be on a boat, you're on a plane, going somewhere same. I'll be on a boat, you're on a plane, going somewhere same, is one of my favorite parts of the song. I just like the concept of being softer with each other

and having our own lives than they are separate. Because that's just the way, I push my luck. It shows, thankfully, you don't send someone to kill me. I know that I hurt your feelings to an extent where I guarantee you like your best friend doesn't like me very much anymore. I have been careless in the past about people's experiences on the other side of writing. something. And I was not until this past year careful with how it might feel to be on the receiving end of a song being about you. And having seen the way that it makes people feel, I don't want to

make people feel that way. You have a song from a few years ago called, I miss you, I'm sorry. I feel like it can't be a coincidence that this song title follows the same sort of format. So did you already have the idea that you wanted to fit the words, I love you, I'm sorry, into what you were writing. So I had written, I miss you, I'm sorry about the same person, wrote that song years ago. And it kind of felt like the first time I had put a song out where I felt like the response from strangers was not just, oh, I like this, but when I looked at the, you know, comments under the YouTube video, it was like paragraphs of people's stories. And that was really important for me. And then after, for like years, I had written different versions of songs of like,

I hate you, I'm sorry. For some reason, something about that song just got in my head. It's like a, I like this as like a pillar. That's Audrey. And there's more than one track of her vocals? Yeah. When Audrey came to Long Pond, she just fucking rip. Like, rip in the vocal booth in a way where like Aaron and I and Bella,

who's a brilliant engineer, would like be out in the room. Like, holy shit, that's so fucking awesome. The thing's awesome. The thing that I love a drink, wistfully lean out my window and watch the sunset on the lake. I might not feel real, but it's okay. The thing that I love so much about singing with her is that like, I think our voices do a thing together where it's like, it almost feels like one thing versus two things. Because that's just the way I push my luck. It shows.

I want to kill me. I want since on everything, especially because I think when Aaron and I are together, we can make things that feel very woodsy and very fulky and that they like belong to a witch. So I wanted there to be some lift. I wanted it to feel a little bit glittery and amidst the warmth of the guitar and the slide.

Because I feel like, you know, maybe people when they're listening to the song, you're not necessarily hearing those things, but you feel them. There are also these beautiful strings. Oh, yeah. Can you tell me about these parts? Rob, Moose, genius.

I think it just brings a level of emotion that, you know, nothing else does. Yeah, I'd like to work with him forever. You said that it was around Christmas time when you wrote this. What year was that? 2023. Okay, so it hasn't been two summers. No. But how do you feel about the song now, looking back at it a year later?

It feels kind of like a tiny little prophecy, I think. I remember sending him the song when it was done. I was just like, the sentiment is real. Here you go. I literally love you and I'm so sorry. This is me fantasizing. This is me, like, desperately wanting to be in a place someday where it doesn't feel heavy and, like, knives every time there's an interaction. It doesn't feel, like, too casual or too intense.

It just is, like, solid, easy and, like, real friends. And if I can be so presumptuous to say, I think it... I think it's working. I think it's working. And now here's I Love You I'm Sorry by Gracie Abrams in its entirety. Two August ago, I told the truth, oh, but you didn't like it, you went home. You're in your bends, I'm by the gate. Now you go alone, charm all the people you train for you mean well, but aim low.

And I'll make it known like I'm going to. Or getting paid. I've been talking, but not all that often. We're cool. Wersh. Sunset on the, you were the worst. As sick as it sounds, I loved you first. I was a dick.

It is what it is. I happen to kick the age old curse. I tend to laugh. Whenever I'm sad, I stare at the crash. It actually works. Making amends. The shit never ends. And wrong again.

Wrong again. The watch. Joy riding. I'm sorry. The way. Or visit SongExploder. You'll find links to buy or stream, I Love You, I'm Sorry, and you can watch the music video,

which was directed by Gracie's co-writer, Audrey Hobart. This episode was produced by Craig Ely, Theo Balkham, Kathleen Smith, Mary Dolan, and myself. Our production assistant is Tiger Biscop. The episode artwork is by Carlos Lerma, and I made the show's theme music and logo. Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRRX, a network of independent, listener-supported,

artist-owned podcasts. You can learn more about our kids. shows at Radiotopia.fm. If you'd like to hear more for me, you can sign up for my newsletter, which you can find on the Song Exploder website, and you can get a Song Exploder t-shirt at songexploder.net slash shirt. I'm Rishi-Kesh hereway. Thanks for listening.