Song Exploder - Hayley Kiyoko - Girls Like Girls

Episode Date: June 24, 2026

Hayley Kiyoko is a singer, songwriter, author, and director from Los Angeles. She was a child actor on Disney and Nickelodeon, and briefly in a girl group called The Stunners. But then, she started her career as a solo artist. In 2015, she put out the EP This Side of Paradise, and one of the songs on it was “Girls Like Girls.” She co-wrote it with Lily May-Young and Owen Thomas, and it was produced by James Flannigan. Hayley co-directed the music video for it, and when the song and the video came out, it was an absolute phenomenon. It became a lesbian anthem; Rolling Stone named it one of the most inspiring LGBTQ songs of all time. Hayley’s legion of fans gave her the nickname “Lesbian Jesus.” In 2023, Hayley adapted the song into a bestselling coming-of-age novel. And in June 2026, she made her feature film directorial debut, with the movie adaptation of “Girls Like Girls.” For this episode, Hayley and I talked about how it all started with the making of that song. For more info, visit songexploder.net/hayley-kiyoko.

You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs, and piece by piece, tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishi Kiyahirwe. Haley Kiyoko is a singer, songwriter, author, and director from Los Angeles. She was a child actor on Disney and Nickelodeon, and briefly in a girl group called The Stunners. But then, she started her career as a solo artist. In 2015, she put out the EP This Side of Paradise, and one of the songs on it was Girls Like Girls. She co-wrote it with Lily May Young and Owen Thomas, and it was produced by James Flanagan. Haley co-directed the music video for it, and when the song in the video came out, it was an absolute phenomenon.

It became a lesbian anthem. Rolling Stone named it one of the most inspiring LGBTQ songs of all time. Haley's Legion of Fans gave her the nickname Lesbian Jesus. In 2023, Haley adapted the song into a best-selling coming-of-age novel, and in June 2026, She made her feature film directorial debut with the movie adaptation of Girls Like Girls. So for this episode, Haley and I talked about how it all started with the making of that song. I'm Haley Kiyoko. Do you feel like you've always been a performer?

Is that just something that's been a part of you since the beginning? So a fun fact is I wore a back brace in middle school for two years. I had a really bad to scoliosis. And I credit that experience and moment for the ability to, fake my confidence because it was sink or swim. It was like, I'm wearing this back brace and I'm going to get bullied or I'm going to have to pretend that this is the coolest thing you could do is fix your scoliosis. And that's the direction I went. And so I kind of created this facade of confidence. But when I would come home, I felt very alone and very isolated. And I didn't feel like I had real connection. I knew I was queer since I was like five or six. And, you know, I have a specific memory of seeing in sync at the Staples Center. And I watched the boy band. I was like, oh, my gosh, I want to be on stage singing a song with screaming girls all over the place.

Like, that is my dream. I wanted to be this pop star. And I was like, how does that work? I was like, okay, I love writing music on my acoustic guitar in my bedroom. And, you know, I would write songs about girls all the time. but I would change the pronouns from she, her, to he, him in my journals in case someone found them. So, like, even though I knew my truth, you're still even having to hide in your own space. So I really struggled with, like, self-worth and self-love.

I feel like people might be surprised to learn that because weren't you on TV and already kind of a young star at that point? Well, the first time I booked a role, I was 17. So I wasn't like a kid, kid, but I ended up starting to book commercials where I played a musician. Like I was in like a cinnamon toast crunch commercial and I was like rocking out on the guitar. And I like would pretend to be a musician, but I really wanted to be a real musician. And I had a brief stint of being in a girl group way even before I was a solo artist. And I was a solo artist. And I was. And I was a real musician. And I was a real musician. And I was a real musician. And I was. And I was. And I was a brief stint of being a solo artist. And I. And And I was really exposed to the male gaze and performing for these men in the music industry. And I never felt safe to tell people that I was a lesbian because I was worried that I would lose my job or like I wouldn't be supported in the group or stuff like that. So there was a big fear and disconnect where I really wanted to be myself, but I felt like being myself was going to hint. under my ability to be successful. And so I really struggled being able to connect those dots. What do you remember about the first day of working on girls like girls?

It was a rainy day in Los Angeles. And I was still searching for my sound and my voice. I was with another two writers who were married couple, Owen and Lily. We had written a couple songs prior. And I remember it was raining. and Lily was like, what are you most afraid of to sing about? Like, what is the scariest thing you could share that you've never shared before? And she had just such a warmth to her.

And I had known I was a lesbian for a very long time. But I never really came out to people, especially like co-workers. But I felt very, like, safe and comfortable with her. And I felt like she wouldn't judge me for who I was. And so I came out to her. started crying. And she was like, why don't we write about that? I remember talking to Lily and just talking about how it was so frustrating because when I was

like fantasizing over my crush or like wanting to be with a girl, I was always comparing myself to a guy. Like, I wish I could say this and say that and say this. As a woman, you're jealous of what men get to. experience because women are still not like equal in society or we're taught that we're not equal. And it's so frustrating because girls like girls like boys do. And I always found myself in like a love triangle almost where it was me or him. And it's like my feelings are just as valid as this guy who's in love with this girl. And we're just having this conversation. And she was like,

well, why don't we just like say that? Girls like girls like boys do. And so we started on the chorus and started with that as like the foundation of what the song would be. Girls like girls like boys do. Nothing new. Nothing new. And then the convo was kind of like who I wish I was at that time, which was confident and like, I'm going to steal your girl and like, you know, who I wanted to be that I wasn't. Did that point to any musical starting place for you? I grew up playing drums. So percussion and rhythm has always been a huge inspiration for me.

And I feel like when I listen to a great song with an amazing snare, an amazing kick, like, I'm just in it. And so when I think of like cool or like what I wanted or confidence, I think of drums. Did you end up making a demo that day? Yeah, we did, but I have no idea where that is. And actually, we should pause this and I should try to find it. Found it? Yes. We did make a demo.

Owen produced it. Yeah, we finished the whole song that day. So after you had that demo, did you have something in mind for where you wanted the song to go in terms of the production? I just wanted it to feel like me. And I think as an artist, you're always searching, like, who are you in sonic form? You kind of like do writing sessions and you meet different people and you're almost like dating, you know, and you're like figuring out who you like working with. And so I met James Flanagan 2013. I just really loved his charisma and we really connected and aligned.

I think he was in L.A. for a period of time, but he lived in the UK. He lived in London. And so we met earlier on. And then when I started working on the side of paradise, I called him up. I was like, hey, like, I have no money. Would you want to work with me on my EP? And he was like, if you find a place to stay and you come to me, absolutely. And so I flew to London. and we wrote for like a week. And then a couple months later, I was like, how do we get back together? Because you live in London. I live in L.A.

And he was like, well, I'll come to L.A. Do you have a place to stay? And I was like, well, you could stay with my parents. And we could make like a makeshift studio in the garage. And so he agreed. So he lived with my parents for, I think it was like two or three weeks. and he came out, it was just me and James, and we produced the record.

So my relationship with James was very collaborative. It was never like, this is what I think you should do or else. You know, I had just been in a girl group where you didn't get to write the songs, you didn't get to have any say. I had been through that. And that's not the experience I wanted when writing my music. My conversation with Haley Kiyoko continued.

after this. Do you remember the first time you shared this song with James? Yeah, it was interesting. So we had picked the songs for the EP, and I didn't put Girls at Girls on the EP. I didn't want to because I wasn't ready to come out. I was like, once I release this, people know I'm gay, and then I can't turn back.

Like, it's over. It's over for me. But I was like, I think I should. should throw it on. Like, it's the best song. Like, why wouldn't I put it on? And so it was kind of like a last minute addition to it. I remember playing it for James. And I think he knew the weight of what this moment was for me. And, you know, I think he took that seriously. The song is, correct me if I'm wrong, all vocals and electronic sounds. What determined those being the sounds? I think at the time budget. But at that time, I was so, like, since Ford, I loved, like, yeah, yeah, yeah,

and TV on the radio and M83 and, you know, so that's all I wanted. And he had, like, a Novation Station. It's this little mini keyboard. And there was, like, 80 presets on it or something like that. And we kind of go through and he's like, how does this feel? How does that feel? You're really just twiddling and feeling it out because you don't know where the destination is. But I think as a musician, you hear something and you're like, yeah, that's it. That feels right. That one, wrong, won, that part. I felt like was kind of the identity of the song.

Weird beat when you isolated it. I was like, where's the tempo? I was like, it's almost like a weird like shuffle. To me, that's the heart of the record, those two sounds. There's like a confidence in the drive of it, but there's also hesitancy in between. And I think the whole metaphor of this song is like I was trying to lead with confidence, but I was actually really hesitant. And so I think weirdly that really mirrors how I felt.

the opening line of girls like girls is stealing kisses from your missus doesn't make you freak out it's like i'm pursuing her and why couldn't i pursue her stealing kisses from your missus doesn't make you freak out got you busing got you the guard down boys you know you said that you used to write your songs on acoustic guitar where did the guitar fit into your sense of your musical identity at this point in your life? It didn't, and I was trying to remove it. Really? When you have a guitar in your bedroom and all you have is your guitar,

you just want every other instrument but the guitar, at least for my experience. And my dream was to be able to work with a producer and be able to record my music and use like anything else but the guitar. I just wanted to get to experience other sounds and things that I personally, couldn't create or achieve just on my own. You know, James is such a great instrumentalist, finding these little pieces to really just elevate the journey of the song. Do you feel like your acting work helped with the performance of the singing part?

Yeah, I think so. I think my acting experience of just, like, putting this cap of confidence. I mean, I do have the side of myself that is. very confident. And I think it's just, I remember recording it and James, you know, being like, feel confident in what you're saying. And we would try different things. I tried whispering it. I tried talking it. I tried shouting it. And it just kind of sat in this kind of more conversational tone that ended up shining. Tell the neighbors, I'm not sorry if I'm breaking walls down. Building your girl's second story.

Ripping all your floors out. It's just so interesting. Listen to those lyrics. It's like, damn, those are some cocky lyrics. Those are some really confident lyrics there. Do you remember how you got to that second verse? Lily's such a visual person. And, you know, the chorus is so just direct.

And I remember we were talking, she was like, let's build a visual. Let's create a world. and tell the neighbors, I'm not sorry if I'm breaking walls down, building your girl's second story, ripping all your floors out. I think it's such a beautiful sentiment because it is like, for so many people, some people have my experience where they know who they are from the beginning and they're hiding who they are. And then there's other people who maybe get married and then find the love of their life later on in their life and ends up being a woman or they end up

realizing something about themselves and their identity and it's it's a rainbow had you been in a relationship at that point yeah but like you know just like toxic relationship vibes you know i was always falling for like the straight girls or the unavailable girls and but i had an experience like real love at that time or anything but i've had like experiences falling for the straight girl is a good way to get into a love triangle. Absolutely. It really sets yourself up for success there. And then I remember I was like, oh, the song's called Girls like Girls and it'd be funny to be like almost sarcastically being like, boy, you know, as like I'm talking to this guy that I'm stealing his girl from.

Yeah. Boy, he's going to steal your thunder. Watch me like a dark cloud on the move. Collecting numbers, I'm going your girl out. Having the harmony that's going throughout. Do you remember where that idea came from or how you were? That was classic. I'll share with you.

It stems from feeling insecure with my vocals, growing up not being the best, like, vocalist and having to learn how to sing because I was so desperate to express myself through song. And so I would always layer my voice. I grew up listening to like Eamogen Heap and, you know, like the vocoder stuff she would do. And so I've just always loved like walls of voices. Saw your face, heard your name.

Gotta get with you. Girls, isn't there? Gotta get with you. We mixed this song on an I-home. Do you remember an I-home? Like the ones that were the alarm clocks by your bedside, that's what we mixed the song on. Because those were the best speakers you had in the house?

Yeah, well, we also didn't have money to get it professionally, like, done. So James, like, mix it on the I-home and was like, well, if it sounds good on the I-home, then it'll sound good in everyone's professional speakers. Obviously, I had no idea what this song would end up being for myself. And I had no idea the foundation the song was going to lay for me in my future. And then I remember wanting to make a music video for it. I was like, if I'm going to release a song, then I need to like really go for it. And that's, you know, when I co-directed the music video and released that in June 2015, a couple days.

later same-sex marriage was legalized in the country, which was to my surprise and also very exciting. So it was just this really interesting shift culturally that happened. And then the music video went from a million to two million to three million. I was playing for 15 people in Michigan in a bar and sitting in my car because there was no green room. Like that's where I was at. And because of this song, I got signed to a major label. And then how did all that lead to you directing this movie? A lot of the comments were like, I wish this was a movie. Comments on the music video.

Yeah. And that kind of planted this seed. And that led to many, many years of, you know, developing the script. And at one point, the movie kind of like fell apart. And I was like, if I died tomorrow, I need this story to be told. So I decided to write the novel of Girls and, like girls. And so I released the book in 2023, and that became a New York Times bestseller. And that momentum ended up sparking the momentum back up for the film. And I got greenlit for the

film at the end of 2023, shot the movie in 2024, finished the movie in 2025, and now we're in 26. Now this song is 11 years old. Do you feel like you? You made your NSYNC fantasy come true? I think I have. Like, I definitely think that that dream of being able to sing music about girls and having girls, you know, scream and be excited about it, I definitely have had those moments. It's kind of really wild to think about that. And that all started being scared that I was putting the song out on the EP.

You know, it's really cool to. go down this memory lane with you knowing that I love being gay. I love who I am and I found love. And now here's Girls Like Girls by Haley Kiyoko in its entirety. To learn more, visit

SongExploder.net. You can find links to buy or stream Girls Like Girls and to watch the music video that Haley co-directed. The film Girls Like Girls is out now. This episode was produced by me, Craig Ely, Mary Dolan, Kathleen Smith and Tiger Biscope. The episode artwork is by Carlos Lerma,

and I made the show's theme music and logo. Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts. You can learn more about our shows at Radiotopia.fm. If you'd like to hear more from me, subscribe to my newsletter. You can find it on the Song Exploder website. You can also get a Song Exploder shirt at SongExploder.net slash shirt.

I'm Rishi Kesh Your Way. Thanks for listening. The Kitchen Sisters, another show on Radiotopia that I love, have a new series rolling out over the next year called Quilts as Monuments. Their first story chronicles So Their Names, an unlikely collaboration between an African-American preacher, a white federal court judge, and a group of rural Alabama quilters.

Recently, hundreds of long-forgotten pre-Civil War names of enslaved and segregated black members of churches across Alabama were uncovered in the Baptist Archive. And the So Their Names project is bringing people together across the state to embroider, memorialize, and bring these names alive on quilts. The Kitchen Sisters present So Their Names, Quilts as Monuments, wherever you get your podcasts.