Song Exploder - Leon Thomas - Mutt

Episode Date: January 28, 2026

Leon Thomas is a singer, songwriter, producer, and actor. He’s nominated for six Grammys at this year’s Grammy Awards, including Best New Artist, Best R&B Album, and Album of the Year for Mutt. Mutt is his second album, and I talked to Leon about the title track, which was a breakout hit. He’d already won a Grammy for his work with SZA, but he reached a new level in his own career with this song and this album. I also spoke to David Phelps and Rob Gueringer, AKA D. Phelps and Freaky Rob, who produced the song. For more info, visit songexploder.net/leon-thomas.

You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and piece by piece tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishi Kesh Hirway. This episode of Song Exploder is made possible by IBM. It was recorded in front of a live audience at IBM's offices in New York City, and it was a great experience. I learned a lot about the work that IBM's doing in partnership with the Grammys, which includes the Grammy IQ trivia game that you can check out at IQ.gramm.com. It was built with IBM WatsonX, and it's just one of the ways. IBM helps create smarter business. This episode contains explicit language.

Leon Thomas is a singer, songwriter, producer, and actor. He's nominated for six Grammys at this year's Grammy Awards, including Best New Artist, Best R&P album, an album of the year for Mutt. Mutt is his second album, and I talked to Leon about the title track, which was a breakout hit. He'd already won a Grammy for his work with Siza, but he reached a new level in his own career with this song and this album. I also spoke to David Phelps and Rob Gher, aka D. Phelps and Freaky Rob, who produced the song.

She said take your time, what's the rush? Leading up to the day when you first started writing Mudd, what was going on in your life? Right around the time when I was doing the album Mudd, it was a transitional period in my life. You know, I had records that were doing very well for other artists. There was a song that I produced for Siza called Snooze that was like burning up the charts.

Previous to that, I was working with Drake a lot. But at the end of the year, I was very frustrated because I felt like my first album, Electric Dusk, was getting some love, but it wasn't enough to really shake the building. And we had a new president coming in to the label, and it was a very scary time because sometimes when the person that signs you leaves the label,

the next person could easily say, all right, we're not sure about this kid. So this record, Mutt was a survival instinct. You know, I went in top of the year. It was January 1st, 2023. I decided I said, okay, we're going to have to go in and really swing hard on something that works. It was literally New Year's Day. Yeah, literally New Year's Day.

January 1st, 20203. My name is Rob Garringer, aka Freaky Rob. And I'm D. Phelps. And we produce Mutt. How did you two first start collaborating? We met when I was 14. And I had to be like 16. And have you been making music together ever since?

Ever since. So the way we even met Leon is my management and David's management have been on our asses about doing content. Me and D were terrible at doing content. What do you mean by content? Like how you see producers on Instagram, they make the beat from scratch and then they put it up. And it was like our managers was pretty much like, you guys need to get in on that. Like, you guys should be making videos. You should be showing some of these gems.

And so we had did a cool idea this day in particular. David was like, you know what? I'm going to record myself playing the drums, and I'm going to put that up. I was scrolling through Instagram, and I saw a video of David playing drums and Freaky Rob playing bass. And I DM them. And, you know, it's funny because when it came out, that video didn't have that many views, but it led to him. So. Meeting up with them was like finding lost brothers.

I feel like we all listen to the same mixture of Led Zeppelin, Kendrick Lamar, Miles Davis, Pink Floyd, you know, these guys get me. They understand P. Funk in a real way. They understand jazz, Artatum, John Coltrane. They get my mind when it comes to wanting to make something that feels like something. Finding that in a collaborator is rare. And I knew we were going to make something special. I didn't know when, but I knew we were going to make something special.

So when you started working on the song mud, how much had you done together at that point? Probably about six months in to working. Okay, so you had a solid working relationship with them already. Yeah, man, we would pull up. Rob had a studio. He named the playground because it was like a pretty large room. He had instruments lined in so any musician could come in and pick up their acts of choice, the keys, drums, whatever, and it was all lined into logic, and we could play.

So when you first started Mutt, how did that day begin? I walked in on a mission. Top of the year, it's up, I was energized. It was the same kind of vibe that people walk into the gym with on like January 5th or some shit. Like, I was just like, I'm going to do it. Sixpack is on the way. Like, you know what I'm saying? I had this energy to me that felt like, all right, we got to make something special.

You could tell he was ready to get to something. Talking to me and David like we're the congregation. Yeah, and I just remember Leon with the sunglasses and just like, guys, I had an epiphany. So while I was on Christmas break, I watched this Elvis biopic, and, you know, he had the hound dog, almost like a totem for like his world. And at the time, I had a dog and a cat. And my dog and my cat were bickering. And my cat, you know, lightly taps my dog on the face with her paw. and my dog had this face like he kind of did something wrong,

but it was like playful. And in that moment, his face, I don't know, maybe this sounds crazy, but his face looked like mine. I was kind of seeing myself in him for the first time, and that honestly really hit me. I wanted to find a way to kind of tie in all of these songs about unrequited love, about maybe being a player at times,

or maybe not being the right kind of part. partner at times and I wanted to find a way to really encompass all of that from a very vulnerable place rather than a place of bravado. I was like, hold on, mutt, hound dog, all of this all right, we could tie this together. And I thought it would be a real fun, playful hook, you know, because my dog is a mutt, you know, he's a German Shepherd husky pit. So he's just got a lot going on. And the term mutt, immediately it just had like a ring to it. The vibe was right. The one thing about him is just like, we know a dreamer when we see one, and we're going to empower it. And so we was just like, all right, let's get it.

So did you start with the music? Well, funny enough, the music already was started. It was started already. Yeah, we just didn't know it. Basically, bro kind of gave us what he was searching for sonically, and then we just started pressing play on beats and stuff like we always do. And then I found the session on accident looking for another beat I was supposed to play Leon and played the beat. And then I tried to stop it. And he was like, he was like, that's it.

That's it. Me and David looked at each other, like, what the hell? Because it was so bare bones. It was just kind of like an A bar loop. Because we used to make sketches. Like, we would be at the studio so long. Either he, David would get bored, just go start some shit. And I'll come back to it later, add everything.

Or I would do the same thing. We would like literally save stuff like Rob, come back to this. Or David, add keys to this. And it was one of those things. and I low-key have forgot about it. I'm like, this shit is hard. And Leon was like, y'all wanna go ahead and build this out, my brothers?

I spent years producing for other people. Sometimes it's nice as an artist to walk into something that started. And then if I have ideas, I'm down to go back and forth with the producer to see if we can take it to another place. But it can be a little exhausting if you're trying to do 100% of everything and less fun. I like to collaborate, man. It's like a party in the studio when you're there with your boys, you know?

When everybody's together and everybody's coming up with really cool ideas, the art of collaboration can really turn into a really positive thing. So at this point, all you had for the instrumental was drums, 808 and a sample? Yeah, the sample was silly love song by enchantment. Rob is the reason I heard silly love song. He was cleaning up his studio one day on a Sunday. My studio was a wreck at the time. We had just recorded a bunch of different sessions going on that week. So the studio was in shambles.

And that's my happy place. Like, David knows I'm a very old soul. I'll put on oldies. I'll clean up. But I didn't know. What's funny is I thought he knew what that song was. Because this is, like, backyard, barbecue Chicago music. Like, my grandmothers, my uncles, they're stepping to this.

They're having a good time. They vibe. And this is, like, a part of my childhood, you know. And when I seen him go to the computer after listening to it, I was like, oh, shit, he hears something. That's him on drum. That's what got me. Like, I was like, yeah.

But I know how big the song is personally. Right. Like, okay, well, it's enchantment. But Leon is just like, I don't give a deal. This is a great song. Like, you know what I'm saying? But we're, like, thinking about the actual logistics, like the real part of it. Right.

Like, you're thinking about how do we do this without having to rely on a sample? You didn't want to go down that rabbit hole, getting in trouble and stuff. So he literally made it a point to try. out to recreate or interpolate the whole feeling. What is the difference between using a sample and then doing this kind of interpolation that you're talking about? What does that change? Your finances.

Literally. You pay either way. It's just depending on how much you get to save a little bit if you go one way opposed to the other. But I do think us being able to interpolate the song actually did add a unique energy to the Sonic Wall. How did you go about doing that? How did you recreate the sample? We built over the sample.

So, like, the bass and guitar, like, Rob knocked that out real fast, piano. Shout out to Leon a lot, too, because, like, with the strings, he kind of took the initiative to get those things recorded. But at the time, when I first heard the instrumental, there was no bass yet. Once again, I told you I had this mission. I was like, we now need that P-Funk. I was like, yo, Rob, you could play a bass line, but I wanted to have, like, that while, like, Bootsie, you know?

Boosie Collins is known for like, you know, his use of the wah-wai pedal and that open clothes feeling gives so much structure to the bass. And it's like really dope and vintage. You know, it's that funk. That drum and bass is a marriage that's like, you know, me and Dee have been playing together almost 20 years. So it's like some things, it's just a chemistry thing, you know. The story of mutt continues after this.

Song Exploder is sponsored by IBM. If you didn't already know, IBM stands for international business machines, and since it's founding in 1911, they've been leading the evolution of technology, helping businesses leverage the latest tools and driving business success. It's in that spirit that IBM has been supporting the Recording Academy, solving real business challenges with innovative solutions, like engaging music fans on Grammy.com, with features like the Grammy IQ trivia game, or delivering personalized experiences to the 24,000 members of the Recording Academy. which in turn serves the entire music community. All of this helps make the recording academy more productive and innovative. That's how IBM is helping the recording academy create a smarter business. After you put together the bass and drums and the elements of the beat, what happened next? I feel like after we built it, we got out the way.

Another person that helped with this song is Busy Crook. He's a great songwriter from Miami rapper, artist. Shout out to my boy Busy Crook, because we send each other. ideas through a text thread and have been doing that for years now. So we have a text thread for I'm going to say about eight years of just endless verses. Paragraphs long. Like it's crazy. And I knew what the hook was going to say, but I needed verses that felt fun and playful. The first verse and I think the second verse were constructed years ago. It just never found a home on another song.

I feel like finding something potent to say that's clever and cool takes more time. But melody is the fun part. So yeah, melody was like, that was my first mind. A lot of the stuff on this record was like my first mind and I refused to overthink it. No crepto to come through. It's time to break it in. 32 like my pants size because the niggins try breaking it. I really attached myself to that lyric because right around that time,

I woke up in the middle of the night to my dog barking. And, I mean, he barks, but he was, like, going at it. So, you know, I put some shorts on just to see what's going on. And there's a grown man sitting on my couch. And I'm like, hmm, all right. A stranger. Absolute stranger, gang. So I'm like, what?

I don't have a weapon nearby, and I'm thinking about it. And I'm seeing to myself, all right. I just watched John Wick And I did some random call Get him boy Like like kind of My dog lit I don't know

It was the energy I guess my boy Comes running out the door Barking and he's a big boy So he's just barking And you know Charging towards the living room By the time my dog

Turned the corner That man was out of my crib So it was kind of fire It was kind of fire that my boy Terry Save the day man He locked it in When you're writing your own songs, do you find that you think about that process differently than when you're writing for other artists?

Absolutely. I mean, I have free reign to mix genres in ways a lot of other artists aren't open to. I can say outlandish things that I think I would feel comfortable saying on the stage that maybe other artists wouldn't be open to. That was the reason why I started kind of stepping away from songwriting and productions because I kind of didn't like how safe I had to be sometimes. It became a bit constraining, especially when everybody has these imaginary formulas on what a hit sounds like. When honestly, I feel like the best music comes from being honest.

And I think a lot of people just kind of overthinking. Do Rob and Dave get involved in the vocal side of things? Or do you do that production on your own? Well, the way I work is selfish on purpose. So I'll be in my headphones and I engineer myself just so I don't get any doubt in the building. just in case I'm working through something. And so essentially all they're hearing me do is just riffing, you know,

they're hearing like a little bleed from the headphones. We sit there patiently while he just records. So I started with the verses, and then I got to the hook. She said, take your time, what's the rush? I said, baby, I'm a dog, I'm my mutt. It's got that silly, playful, flirty energy to it.

Throughout the verse, I'm just talking about how it's hard for me to trust because people can be kind of wild, but I see something to you and I just want to speed into things. Let's just get straight to the love, you know? Let's just fall in love, and if you won't break my heart, it's all good. I don't care, you know.

It's really slick. It's the slick talk, you might say, that'll make the girl you really like laugh, but also, also, who knows? So you can break my heart? And then Phelps, he never does this, but he was like, Yo, what if you do like a call and response thing? David told Leon, we need something to connect the phrases. And I left to go get Chick-fil-A and I came back and the shit was like, ooh, oh.

I was like, whoa, like no, that shit is fire. And he had harmonized them too. She said, take your time. What's the rush? I said, baby, I'm a dog. I'm a mud. I'm a dog. I'm a mud.

I used Verisbee, and I did the falsetto part in the middle. It's like intricate stuff, but then it's also, it's play. Man, we were at the playground, and I was just playing. And I was trying to impress my friends and say, like, yo, look. His little falsetto he does at the top. Oh, my gosh. The runs. It's crazy.

So sweet. It's just like those money notes. Like, those runs were so crazy to me. Then I went back to my home and recorded the actual vocal that's out there in the world. That was a fun experience because I knew the vocal I put down just sounded like bourbon. And I wanted it to be a little cleaner and just like really precise. I'm glad I took the time to re-record. But I let my guard down for you, said I'll put my guard down for you.

Said I'll be vulnerable So you can break my heart if you want to She said take your time What's the rush Take your time What's the rush? She said take your time What's the rush

I said baby I'm a dog I'm a mother I'm a dog The layers of Of this project Show the vulnerability That are within a dog I mean, I think anybody that owns a dog understands that even that vicious pit bull loves to cuddle.

And I think there's a duality behind that. When you finish the song, did you already have a feeling that this was going to be a hit? I knew I liked it. I would play it at my house and I could drive to it. It was a kind of song that I could enjoy. But it's tough being like an alternative R&B artist, I would say. Sometimes, like it was kind of high. hard being an outsider in the beginning.

But around that time, I did a lot of self-reflecting and a lot of dreaming. And the greatest thing about music to me is that you can bottle up an emotion and a feeling. And waking up that year, I was like, things are going to change. I'm going to be everything I'm capable of and I'm going to continue to just have fun. And now here's Mutt by Leon Thomas in its entirety. SongExploder.net. You'll find links to buy or stream, mut, and you can watch the music video.

This episode was produced by me, Craig Ely, Mary Dolan, and Kathleen Smith, with production assistance from Tiger Biscope. The episode artwork is by Carlos Lerma, and I made the show's theme music and logo. Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts.

You can learn more about our shows at Radiotopia, If you'd like to hear more from me, I write a newsletter where I read about the making of some of these episodes and about music and film and the creative process. You can find a link to the newsletter on the Song Exploder website. You can also get a Song Exploder shirt at songexploder.net slash shirt. I'm Rishi-Kesh Airway. Thanks for listening. Thanks again to IBM for their support of both Song Exploder and the Grammys. IBM helps smarter businesses like the Recording Academy find new ways to connect with and leverage their data wherever it lives. Let's create Smarter Business, IBM.