Song Exploder - Lizzo - Still Bad

Episode Date: April 23, 2025

Lizzo is a Grammy- and Emmy-winning singer, rapper, songwriter, and actress. She’s been putting out music since 2013, and her last two albums both went platinum. Her fifth album, Love In Real Life, comes out this summer. For this episode, I talked to Lizzo, as well as her longtime collaborator, Grammy-winning producer Ricky Reed, about the making of one of her new songs, “Still Bad.” It wasn’t a straightforward process at all, and coming up, you’ll hear a few of the many, many demos they made on their way to the final song. For more, visit songexploder.net/Lizzo.

You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs, and piece by piece tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishi Kesh Hirwe. This episode contains explicit language. Lizzo is a Grammy and Emmy-winning singer, rapper, songwriter, and actress. She's been putting out music since 2013, and her last two albums, both went platinum. Her fifth album, Love in Real Life, comes out this summer. For this episode, I talked to Lizzo as well as her longtime collaborator, Grammy-winning producer Ricky Reed. about the making of one of her new songs still bad.

It wasn't a straightforward process at all. And coming up, you'll hear just a few of the many, many demos they made on their way to the final song. I'm Melissa Lizzo, in quotes, Vivian Jefferson, professionally known as Lizzo. I don't know why I'm so giggly, professionally known as Lizzo. I had started working on this entire album, maybe October, 2023, and I had written a lot of songs that the world will never hear because it was like house music or like a lot of rap and a lot of like dark songs.

And I was like, I'm not here to write songs. It's like dark and depressed. And, you know, I write the silver lining records. I write songs that make people feel good. What were the other songs like? What were they about? Oh, my God. The cycle of like tearing people down and building them up and tearing them down again and watching them get back up.

It's like fun to see. Where you're the person being torn down? Absolutely. But it's like, what was me? Like, I'm not going to put that on my album. Like, write the song, you know, get it off your chest. But the world don't need to hear those songs. My like thesis question or whatever statement every time I'm in the studio was like,

what song does the world need to hear and that I need to sing? And how do I honor that sound? How do I create that band? What does that album sound like? you know, focus. So the time leading up to writing Still Bad was very much getting a lot of songs off my chest. And I don't think I would have been able to write Still Bad if I hadn't written all of those, like, hurt body, pain body songs. So did something happen? Like, was there a specific turning point? So I wrote Love in Real Life, the title track of the album, early spring 2024. And,

Love and Real Life was the first, oh, things are going to be all right song that I had written in like months. And I was like, okay, this is the sound. Shortly after that, Still Bad happened. I'm Ricky Reed. I'm a co-writer and producer of Lizzo's Still Bad. I did this with Ricky Reed, Blake Slacken, Chechay. Yeah, Chece Alara was also in that room. And Sam Harris from the ex-ambassadors.

So I walk in the studio And it was just like There was so much passion happening It was like this country song Like I don't need him I need a drink We definitely were talking about country songs

The sort of pocket we were feeling That we were messing around It was a classic sort of Stomp, clap country I don't need him I need a drink And we just thought that was a blast But it was really interesting

Because we didn't really have music, we just kind of had like a lyric and a feeling. Can I ask you, how did you even start with this country idea? Because it feels so different from what I think of when I think of Lizzo's music. We're having a lot of fun and starting a lot of our days with almost like, you know, what's the opposite thing? What's the least expected thing? Because the hardest thing ever is to sit down and be like, let's write a up-tempo dance, pop. Like, that is so hard. So if you want to have songs that you feel like are great and infectious and high energy,

for me, sometimes the best way to get there is to start with a good feeling that's just not so on the nose and then see where it leads you. And then Lizzo came in and what was her reaction to it? She loved the feeling of it. we have been experimenting with so many genres that she was just down to go on the ride. I walk in and I'm like, okay, I'm like, what's going on here?

It's a vibe. This vibe all the time. And they were like, we just have this like country song on our hearts. Sam Harris, he did the I don't need him, I need a drink. And I was just like, well, that doesn't resonate with me right now. And he was like, well, let's just write the country song.

I said, cool. But I had to reframe it in my brain to write it by being like, actually, I'm not talking about a man, I'm talking about the world, a breakup song with the world. So it's really interesting. We had a decent amount of like a feel. And then we sat down with instruments. We're like, is this guitar or piano?

Like, we just had a lyric and a feeling. And that would end up setting the stage for the creation of this song. It was like these like kind of minor chords, like, do. I can actually play them for you. Yeah, let's listen to the voice memo. With like crazy gnarles broccoli. One more time, Ricky for the... Let's get it.

Can you believe that's how still bad start? Oh, my God. My memory of it is kicking around a bunch of different things that we liked. I don't need him. I need a drink. Oh, my God. We had so many lyrics. And I just, I need it.

I need to write everything. I think that's how we work, especially me and Ricky. We have to write every lyric possible. That's where I'd never leave my bed. God damn, I can't believe it came to this. I should go Britney shave my head. Then write a book about everything, he said. And then we're like, okay, let's whittle it down.

Were you still thinking about this in the scope of what you said, breaking up with the world as opposed to a particular person? Yeah, I had to because I can't write songs that don't resonate with me on a personal level. Like I had a whole period where I did throw my phone away. I didn't have my phone. I'm about to throw my phone away. The phone being the conduit to the world. Yes, because it's like social media is on there, your friends, your family.

I had so many relationships go. I had been a very like boundaryless person. And if I continue to allow the world to affect me in the press and social media to like tell me who I am or like cuss me out or like talk shit about me or make a joke about me or, you know, at my expense, I'm going to lose my mind. And I'm so grateful that I have music to kind of be my therapist. But I think in real time during this album, music saved my life. And I would be like, oh my gosh, like, I want to die today. But I also have to go in the studio at 12. So it's like, you know, go in and write about it.

Did you explain this to everyone that day? Like, this is a metaphor for me. I did. And very annoying. I tried to change the lyric. I was like, I don't need this. I don't need them. But we always found our way back to him.

I don't need him. I need a drink. I think it must be hard to be going through that and then try to write about it if you don't have the right personalities around you. So how did you and Ricky Reed start working together? I had put out a tape, Big Girl Small World, and Ricky DMs me.

He was like, come to L.A. I'd love to work with you. like, I'm busy. I didn't have any awareness of like the music industry and how it worked and how songwriters work and how pretty. I didn't, I'm very from the rap world of like, send me some beats and I'll write to it and I'll give you a credit when it drops. Like, very much that.

I didn't know what he wanted. I was like, why do I have to come to LA? Just send me some beats, you know? Yeah. But I get there and he was like, you're so talented. like let's just get in the studio and just like vibe. I was like, cool. That I understand.

He was like, so what do you want to say right now? What do you want to say? And I was just like, what do you mean? What do I want to say? Like, let me sit over here. You play a beat and I'll write the words. But I sat with him and I was like, wait, what the fuck is going on here? He had me singing like, God damn Aretha Franklin.

I don't want, I could never sing like her. But I was singing soul and singing in a register that I had never sang in before. I was like, my voice sound like it's not coming out my throat. Like, what's happening? And he had pushed me to this limit that I was just like, wow, I've never experienced anything like that. Learning how to collaborate and learning how to like write a song with a producer from the first chords.

That was all very new to me. And Ricky introduced me to it. It's a very special relationship. There's no one like Ricky when it comes to like pushing me to be like, like the best. And I used to hate it. And now I'm like, oh my gosh, no one else does this to me. I need more. You know, I'm a firm believer that the best Lizzo songs always have a lyric, melody perspective that sort of transcends space and time. We were really trying to get to a core story and a core lyric and melody before we got heavy on the production. Now, what I would

learn is by pushing off the production as much as I did in the early stages would lead to us getting used to very, very unproduced demos, which would make it more challenging to actually finish production down the line. This man will send you a text at like seven in the morning, and he's like, yeah, just been, what do you think about this version? So the country song turned into that first. That was the first iteration of it. And how did you feel about that? that direction. I was like, because we were going for like, crazy. Yeah. I love to be crazy. And I was like, this is sick. This is cool. I like it. I love everything when I first make it because it's my baby. And then you sleep on it and you're like, mm, mm-mm. And what wasn't right about it for you?

It didn't feel fresh. And a lot of times, Ricky, because there are times where I was like, this is sick. And he's like, no, I don't think this is it. We would work on one for a week. two weeks, and then be like, this isn't really getting there. Let's try a different version. That day, we're like, let's try a piano thing. But then once Chet's at the piano, maybe we shouldn't do... And we do the pre-chorus, which we have now. So maybe we didn't keep anything from that production,

but it led us to the lyric and melody of the pre-chorus. And I was working on bass lines, and I was like, maybe this song needs a baseline. I'm about to throw my phone away. This is the demo that ends up being the first time we say, oh, shit, I think we have something here. I went in trying to just get the feeling out of it. I wanted to tell the story musically of, we're going to start the verse with Lizzo knocked down.

and I wanted to get to the chorus with her winning. My conversation with Lizzo and Ricky Reed continues after this. I have a new album of my own coming out on April 24th. It's been about 15 years since I last put out a full length, and this is the first one that will be out under my own name, Rishi Kesh Her Way. I started making Song Exploder when I was feeling lost in my own music career. And then for over a decade, I've gotten to have these incredible. conversations about the process of making music, talking to other artists, and it made me

completely rethink my relationship to music and my way of writing songs. And this album is the product of all of that. It features contributions from some of my favorite artists, including some folks that you may have heard on this podcast, like Iron and Wine, Kevin Morby, Vagabon, Fenlily, and the producer Phil Wine Rope. I'm going to be on tour playing in cities across the U.S. starting in April, and I'm trying to bring the spirit of the podcast with me. So every show that I'm playing will begin with a conversation about the album with a different amazing guest moderator in each city, like Adam Scott, Samin Nasrat, Jason Manzukas, Josh Molina,

Minjin Lee, Ken Jennings, John Roderick, Austin Cleon, and more. They're all going to be my conversation partners on stage, and then I'll play with my band. The album is called In the Last Hour of Light, and the first couple songs are out now. You can listen to the music and get tickets for the shows on my website, rishikash.co, or just go to songexploder.net slash live. That's songexploder.net slash live. Thanks. You had all these different versions and demos that you were trying. Did you have a sense of what it was you were looking for?

They all sound great, but when we thought about the statement that she was trying to make with this album, I think one of the things that would define. a lot of these versions that didn't work was that they didn't have that grit and that urgency. We listened to like Franz Ferdinand. That was the turning point. Listening to Franz Ferdinand. And so then one of the versions of that

were I tried to put a harder edge on it. This is my favorite one that didn't make it. Oh my God, I loved this version. I'm about to throw my phone away. Can't let my girls no problem fucking with my day. I'm playing drums too, just like an asshole We were starting to get an idea of what the album would sound like It's around that time we're really experimenting with

I don't want to oversimplify it and just say that it's rock It's about urgency and energy I have been studying the origin of rock and roll Because I'm going to be playing sister rose at a tharp And rock and roll At its origin was this mixture of gospel and guitar and distortion

and audacity. That leads us to, okay, what if we took that demo, the one I mentioned where I was like getting the feeling of it, that was like our main demo of the song for a long time. So what if we took that

and we just played it like a band? That's what sets us on the path to the final version. We set up to do this day, we set up like a band. So we brought in Victor And Dritso, longtime Lizzo collaborator, one of my favorite drummers of all time. Ricky plays bass. And then I played three distinct guitar performances as if it was like an indie band with three

guitarists. Plot Twist I'm Doing Great was like the first lyric that I was like, oh my God, I can't wait to say this. Like I can't wait for people to hear me say this and I can't wait for people to say it themselves. Oh, so satisfying. What do you love about it? I just loved the cheekiness of it, but also it was so bold because it was like real to me.

I was like, there are people who want to see me miserable. And so to say plot twist, I'm doing great. I was proud of myself for being able to get to a point where I can say that. And I'm like, ha-ha, it's Patty, it's very ha-ha. You thought that I was going to be sad forever, but, you know, I grew. and that line is a deeply satisfying line. The palm muted thing goes It's my favorite part of Stillbad

and it was like a main character in the version I play for you. I remember we played it for the label. They were like, this song is so good until that fucking guitar line. And I was like, no, my precious. And so we had to get rid of it and then we were almost done on the song

and I was like, can we bring back da-da-dam-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum. And like, it's like a different tone that kind of matches the vibe of this record. But we slid it into the bridge because I fought for it. One of the things I love in the song are these gang vocals. Can you tell me about making those? So Ricky has created this like tradition of me calling my friends and being like, hey, you around, come hop on this record and just be like, yeah, yai, woo!

Ha ha, ha, you know. And we're just like laughing. and it like just brings life to the record. And I think it needed party because it's just like, let's go to Vegas. Let's turn our pain to champagne. We need a drink. But this time I didn't have any friends anymore. Because you threw on your phone away.

I threw my phone away and my only friends don't live in L.A. And so I was just like, okay, we're the party track. So that's me. That's Blake Slatkin. That's Sam Harris and Ricky Reed just in a room clapping and hoe-down with each. other. It was really nice, though. That's like five friends having fun and doing what fell right in the moment. I feel like I can hear multiple layers of your voice in different registers. So I'll sit and I'll be like, all right, this time I'm going to do the, let's turn this

paint into some champagne, baby. Then it's like, okay, this time I'm going to do like a lower voice. Let's turn it paint into some champagne, baby, or like a let's turn this paint into some champagne, baby. baby? Or give like a raspy one like, let's turn it paint. It's a little champagne, baby. You got to give it different characters so that like it feels like a shit ton of people. And it's so fun. I'll be like, all right, this is the brady one.

This is the nasly one. This is the airy one. This is the full-bodied one. This is the fast vibrato. This is the slow vibrato. And what about Blake, Ricky, and Sam? Are they also inhabiting other characters? They're trying to.

They're trying to. I think anytime you have a lyric like throw ass, we gotta do a gang vocal on throw ass. At that point, we're listening to the song and I'm like, that needs a lift. And Ricky is so fucking weird when it comes to harmony. He's like, he doesn't do just like major triad shit. He'll be like, what about a minute? And I'm like, what? Boy, that's not going to work.

And he's like, well, if you sing it softly, it'll work. I'm like, all right. And I do it. And I'm like, been a minute. Oh, that was weird. And it like perks your ears up and you won't even really notice it, but you feel it. I don't need him. I need to throw ass in a minute.

Break fast with my bitches. Real love. For me, it's the ad lib going into chorus too. Anytime she does the belt and she's like all out of air, she's holding that long, loud, high note for what feels like 10 minutes. and then she still has enough air to give you a it used to be, I think I'm acting different watch me double down. You know, that was the old like lead into the hook

and now it was like feeling crazy lately, baby, like the A's, the vowel sound is just so much more fun to sing. Instead of acting different, watch me. You know, we think about things like that too. Yeah. But also like feeling crazy lately, it's just more relatable. So I really really, love doing it. It's so tedious, but I always feel like it yields the best results.

So after all of that, revising and rewriting the music and the production and the lyrics, when it came time to record the song, did it still feel like something you were enjoying? God, that's such a great question. Lizzo loved this song so much from the beginning that every time we looked at it, she was excited to just tap back in. Yes. So by the time it was ready to record the vocal, vocal, I was like, hell yeah, let's go.

Because being able to write a song like Still Bad after coming out of the depression that I was in is remarkable. And I'm really proud of myself for being able to find myself again after all of that. Like, I lost a lot from loss of relationships to like, loss of self, loss of innocence, to come back from all of that and be like, shit, how do I turn this into something that everybody knows and loves? Because the last thing I wanted was for people to be like, oh, this is a song about Lizzo, for Lizzo. I wanted people to be like, Jesus, like, did you read the news today? Oh, like, I need a drink.

We've got to get through this day somehow together. So yes, when I was making it, it was very deeply satisfying and selfish. And I was like, oh, this is for me. And then you get all of that shit out first. And then the songwriter kicks in and you're like, how do I make this for all of us? And now here's still bad by Lizzo in its entirety. Girls no brobin fucking with my day. He act like he can't be replaced.

Okay. Well, he going to hate to see me leave, but love to watch me. I'll walk away. Visit songexplor.net slash Lizzo to learn more. You'll find links to buy or stream still bad, and you can watch the music video. This episode was produced by me, Mary Dolan, Craig Ely, and Kathleen Smith,

with production assistants from Tiger Biscope. The episode artwork is by Carlos Lerma, and I made the show's theme music and logo. Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts. You can learn more about our shows at Radiotopia.fm. If you'd like to hear more from me, you can sign up for my newsletter. You can find it on the Song Exploder website.

You can also follow me and Song Exploder on Instagram, and you can get a Song Exploder t-shirt at SongExploder.net slash shirt. I'm Rishi Kesh Hereway. Thanks for listening.