Song Exploder - Lucy Dacus - Thumbs

Episode Date: March 19, 2025

Lucy Dacus is a singer and songwriter from Richmond, Virginia. She put out her first album in 2016, and in 2018 she formed the band Boygenius with Julien Baker and Phoebe Bridgers. In June 2021, she released her third album, Home Video, which includes this song, "Thumbs." The first time I heard it, I knew I wanted to ask Lucy about how and why she made it. After some COVID testing, we spoke in person here in Los Angeles. And she told me the story of how "Thumbs" took months and months to get right. For more, visit songexploder.net/lucy-dacus.

You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs, and piece by piece, tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishi Kesh Hirway. Lucy Dakis has a new album coming out on March 28, called Forever Is a Feeling. So before it comes out, I thought it could be nice to revisit her Song Exploder episode from 2021. It's about the beautiful and brutally heartbreaking song, Thumbs, which I love. Since recording that episode, Lucy's won three Grammy Awards as part of her band Boy Genius, including album of the year. But back in 2021, I had a really nice afternoon talking to Lucy. She was the first guest to come over and record with me in person after COVID-Hid.

So I have a lot of fond memories about this one. And I hope you'll enjoy listening or re-listening to it with me. Before this episode starts, I want to give a content warning. There's some explicit language, but more crucially, the subject matter could be upsetting to some listeners. There's an explicit description of a pretty violent act in the song. And there's some not explicit but implied behavior. of a parent mistreating their child. So please be mindful of that

and take care before going ahead. Lucy Dacus is a singer and songwriter from Richmond, Virginia. She put out her first album in 2016, and in 2018, she formed the band Boy Genius with Julian Baker and Phoebe Bridgers. In June 2021, she released her third album, Home Video, which includes this song, Thumbs.

The first time I heard it, I knew I wanted to ask Lucy about how and why she made it. So after some COVID testing, we spoke in person here in Los Angeles. And she told me the story of how Thumbs took months and months to get right. I'm Lucy Dacus. The day that I wrote Thumbs was in 2018, but the event that the song is about happened like five years before.

I was 19 and had a friend who was crying because she had just been on the phone and she told me that her dad was in town. and she hadn't seen him for a really long time. And I knew that he was a bad dude. And I just told her, like, I'm coming with you. You absolutely don't have to do this alone. We met him at a diner-ish place. And I just immediately hated him.

And I was, like, raised to just not hate. You know, like, love everyone. And I still try to access that love, especially when I feel hate coming on. but this was the first time that it just really won out. I wanted to say to him the things that I wish she would, and I didn't. But all the silences I tried to fill with, like, yeah, you know, she's doing amazing. And he, like, kept trying to take credit and be like, I'm proud of you.

Like, I tried to imply, like, it has nothing to do with you. Like, how could he be proud if he wasn't there? Everything that she is is, like, from herself. I am proud of her, and I respect her so much for those things, because I've, like, had the privilege of watching her. Yeah. Fuck that guy. I started writing my own songs probably when I was, like, 15, and just kept them to myself or showed them to, like, a couple of friends.

But I had a lot of friends in Richmond just peer pressure me into doing shows. They'd be like, we need an opener. We know you write songs, just show up. And so when this happened, I was already playing shows, but I never thought about writing about this. I didn't even journal about it, which is odd for me. It's hard to say if I was actively ignoring this story, but I wasn't thinking about it. Over time, I have recognized how powerful my dissociative powers are. My brain will simply not show me what I'm not ready to see.

And I think this was one of those things, where just suddenly, for some reason, the timer went off like, dang, it took five years, but now the thought is fully baked, and here it is out of the oven. The day that I wrote Thumbs was in Nashville when I was out there recording some random stuff, and everyone that I work with wanted to go get Thai food, Jacob Lizard, who is my guitarist and Colin Pestor, who is our co-producer. The three of us have made everything that I've ever made. And in the car, I had this little notebook that I carry around,

and I just started writing from the top. You hung up the phone, and I asked you what was wrong. Your dad has come to town. he'd like to meet I always write melody and words at the same time I feel like melody is sort of like a highlighter where like pitch accentuates meaning like the words are the words

but they're balanced by the emotion that you put into the performance so we meet him at a bar you are holding my hand hard he ordered rum and coke I can't drink either anymore He hadn't seen you since the fifth grade Now you're 19 and you're 5'8 He said, honey, you sure look great

Do you get the checks I send on your birthday? I wrote the whole song on the 15-minute car ride And after I was done, I felt like literally ill We like got to the restaurant And I was like you go ahead and I got a table And I just like opened the car door And like kind of leaned on my legs And like felt like I was going to throw up

And just cried a little bit If you let me I will Quick and easy Your nails are digging Into my knee I don't know how you Yeah, I haven't had a feeling like that before since.

I was so nervous the first time I played Thumbs. I was on tour with Boy Genius. That's my band with Pee Bidger's and Julian Baker. And we love to show each other songs in progress. So we were doing like a song share backstage and I started playing it. Phoebe actually was like, you have to play this tonight. So I played it at the show. I knew that I needed, like, practice playing it since writing it made me feel sick.

And I knew I needed to play it before I recorded it. I was really grateful for all the shows that I played this at because I would ask people not to record it. It actually created a bond, the fact that people respected that. But yeah, there were some nights that I cried or some nights that my throat closed up, and I just had to like go up and start again. But it's like, yeah, just mutual trust that I actually hadn't felt at shows before,

but it felt so awesome. So I'd been playing the song for a while and then asked my friend to my house so I could show it to her because I wanted to ask permission to put it on the album. If she had told me, you can't record this, I wouldn't have. I broke down playing it for her,

I kind of forgot to play the right chords, and by the end of it, I was just like the snotty-nosed, ugly-crying little sap. And, I mean, she said the thing that has made it possible to put it out, where she was like, this is not a sad song. This is about our friendship, and it just makes me realize that I'm so glad you were the one there. get home he offers us a ride a reply know that's all right and when we leave you feel him watching so we walk a mile in the wrong direction When I first showed Jacob thumbs, he just said sing it and play guitar and I'll do electronic drums and kind of like work out an arrangement. And I actually just like hated it, even though it's not that bad. I just knew it couldn't be that big. I was listening to it and drafting my email as I was listening to it.

like this ain't it. But that's okay. That's most of recording saying this ain't it. And so this demo that you hear was never supposed to be heard by anybody, but such is the nature of this podcast. So then when we went into the studio to record it, I was like, this is the one that's going to be the easiest because I'm just going to play guitar and sing it,

and it'll be like the shows. And the first night that we tried that, we thought we got it, like take two. And Colin came into the tracking room and just hugged me and cried, like, snoddy cry, which is not something that he and I have done much. I record at Trace Horse Studio in Nashville, which is owned by Preston Cochran and Scotty Prudeau. Or they run it, and they were my high school band. So everyone there is like people I've known since we were all teenagers. And we were saying like, we've known each other for so long.

And who would have thought we'd be tracking like this? Everyone was just saying like more emotional stuff than we usually say. And then the next day we listened back to it and it just wasn't good. Like the emotion was there, but the recording was bad. And we were like, oh, I guess we should just try again. So we tried with an acoustic, we tried with me not playing guitar, we tried a full band version for a second, and nothing felt right.

And so we finished the whole record, but Thumbs wasn't done. More with Lucy Dacus after this. I have a new album of my own coming out on April 24th. It's been about 15 years since I last put out a full length, and this is the first one that'll be out under my own name, Rishikesh, Her Wessex. I started making Song Exploder when I was feeling lost in my own music career. And then for over a decade, I've gotten to have these incredible conversations about the process of making music, talking to other artists.

And it made me completely rethink my relationship to music and my way of writing songs. And this album is the product of all of that. It features contributions from some of my favorite artists, including some folks that you may have heard on this podcast, like Iron and Wine, Kevin Morby, Vagabond, Fenlily, and the producer Phil Wine, I'm going to be on tour playing in cities across the U.S. starting in April, and I'm trying to bring the spirit of the podcast with me. So every show that I'm playing will begin with a conversation about the album with a different amazing guest moderator in each city, like Adam Scott, Samin Nasrat, Jason Manzuchas, Josh Molina, Minjin Lee, Ken Jennings, John Roderick, Austin Cleon, and more. They're all going to be my conversation partners on stage, and then I'll play with my band. The album is called In the

last hour of light, and the first couple songs were out now. You can listen to the music and get tickets for the shows on my website, rishikesh.co, or just go to songexploder.net slash live. That's songexploder.net slash live. Thanks. I went back January of 2020, and I said, like, I wish I could just sing this acapella and not have it be weird. and so I just sang it and then added things underneath that.

I wanted it to be as close to not existing as possible. I wanted it to feel like Acapella Plus, essentially. And so the version that's on the record is only the vocal. I clear my throat and say we ought to get home. He offers us a ride. I reply. I know that's all right. And a pad that is like the most boring pad.

I was like, I want this pad to have zero personality. And then a bass synth, the bass synth moments are just when I feel it in my gut. That is when the bass needs to be in because it's like I feel bassy in my body. And then the wind sound is like, like when I feel like kind of crazed or erratic. I don't know how you keep smiling. It's a little brutal because you just have to interact with the story and you don't really get an out.

There isn't some opening up of the arrangement. It's kind of like front to back a story. And I kind of hear it more as a story than as a song. but also I lived it so maybe I'm biased I love any has them or you have his because he was first I imagine

my thumbs on the arrasis pressing in I remember showing it to my drummer Ricardo and I remember saying to Ricardo for the first time, like, I think I'm going to call it thumbs. And he, like, jumped out of his chair, and he was like, that is brutal. That is so much. And I think everyone in my life was really surprised, like, as was I, because it's really violent. It's unlike me. What does it say about me

that I came up with this image? I don't know. I think I'd like to believe that what you make comes from you but isn't solely defining you all the time. You two are connected by a pure coincidence, bound to him by blood, but baby it's all relative. You've been in his fist ever since you were a kid, but you don't owe him shit, Even if he said you...

The last bit of the song that kind of like sums up what I wish for my friend. I like wrote it down the like, you don't owe him shit line. And, you know, I say it twice in the song. I wrote it down twice. And the first time felt like it was for her. And then the second time felt like it was for me. I am adopted and my birth father is a little obsessive. Basically, I also needed to hear that I don't owe him shit, which I didn't know I believed until I said it out loud.

My mom is actually adopted as well. And so the idea of like chosen family has been a part of my life, my whole life. So blood ties have never really made sense to me. And I think that they are used as a tool for manipulation. Like you owe me this because I gave birth to you. So yeah, I think that you don't owe your family. I think that it can be beautiful to feel like you want to enrich the people who have loved you with your own love. Like that is at the core, like a very human, wonderful exchange.

But yeah, family, blood, it's not as important as I think people make it out to be. I think up until this point, I've been protecting myself from the task of having to play things that feel bad. And I've watched friends write super vulnerable and painful music and then they have to play it every night. Like I've been afraid to do that. And I think I have resisted going into certain depths. But this record, I just did it anyways. and I'm already starting to see like, oh yeah, that fear was legitimate. And I have to remind myself that, like, if it's a night where I can't handle it, I don't have to play it.

And I want to believe that anybody that really cares about me would understand that. And I hope that it is therapeutic, and I hope that it can provide a sense of solace. And I'm sorry that it does. I wish less people could relate to this song, honestly. Here's Thumbs by Lucy Dacus in its entirety. You host you are. Your dad has come. He'd like to meet.

I said you don't live for whatever reason you. So we're rum and cold. I can't drink either. He hadn't seen you since the fifth grade. Now you're 19 and you're 5'8. He said, honey, you sure look. You get the checks I sent. on your birthday

If you let me Quick and easy Your nails are done to my knee Smile I've got his Cause he Waging my pressing in I clear my thought to get home

He offers us a ride So we walk a mile If you let quick and easy But baby it's a Or ever since you were, but you don't owe him shit, even if he said, even if he said. Or visit SongExploder.net, where you'll find links to buy or stream thumbs. This episode was made by me, with editing help from Craig Ely and Casey Deal, artwork by Carlos Lerma, music clearance by Kathleen Smith, and production assistants from Chloe Parker.

is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts. You can learn more about our shows at radiotopia.fm. You can follow me on Twitter and Instagram at Rishi Hereway, and you can follow the show at SongExploder. You can also get a Song Exploder t-shirt at songexploder.net slash shirt. I'm Rishi Keish Heirway. Thanks for listening.

Thank you.