Song Exploder - PJ Morton - Say So (feat. JoJo)

Episode Date: February 10, 2021

PJ Morton is a singer, songwriter, and producer. He’s the first artist ever to be nominated for a Grammy for the Best R&B album three years in a row. In 2020, he won the Grammy for Best R&B song for his track, "Say So," which is a duet with the singer JoJo, a platinum-selling artist in her own right. But that version of "Say So" almost didn’t come to exist. In this episode, PJ takes us through his original voice memos, the demos, and the isolated pieces of the final studio recording, as he tells the story of how the track was created, then disappeared, and then got re-created—and ended up becoming one of his biggest songs. For more, visit songexploder.net/pj-morton.

You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs, and piece by piece tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishi Kesh Hirway. P.J. Morton is a singer, songwriter, and producer. He's been nominated for 10 Grammys, including Best R&B album, three years in a row. In 2020, he won the Grammy for the Best R&B song for his track, Say So, which is a duet with the singer Jojo, a platinum-selling artist in her own right. But that version of Say-So almost didn't come to exist. In this episode, PJ takes us through his original voice memos, the demos, and the isolated pieces of the final studio recording, as he tells the story of how Say So was created and then disappeared and then got recreated and ended up becoming one of his biggest songs. So if you love me, just say so, I need to know from you right now before I go.

My name is P.J. Morton. Say-So came out in 2019, but PJ had his first idea for it on February 14, 2015. Valentine's Day. I had a really bad writer's block, maybe one of the worst of my life. Well, I should say usually my form of writers' block is I can't write a song for myself. Sometimes I can still, as a songwriter, write for other artists. But when I say writer's block, I mean I can't. get my own thoughts out, but I would get these melodies and everything I heard, I would like,

we'd get it down because I'm like, maybe this could break it. And I'm not so I hear myself playing the bass notes and stuff because sometimes I need to give myself context with the melody, so funny listening back to that. To be a To be totally honest, I didn't want to be an artist in the beginning. I wanted to be just a musician. I wanted to play for people on tour. That was my biggest dream initially.

And then I started to write and produce. And that's what I wanted to be. I wanted to be Quincy Jones. I wanted to write songs for other people. And what happened was I would write these songs and they didn't fit anybody. And it was just coming from me and I was like, all right, well, if a melody is so much me that it can't fit someone else, then maybe, you know, it's just meant for me. Because I had that idea for the song, I brought the band into the studio.

Let me see if this inspires me to actually write it. So we went in there and I just tried to start to build the song still without any lyrics or words. I'm playing that lead. Yeah. Some type of Moog. For me, as a keyboard player, first, sounds inspire me. The sounds telling me how to sing it. Those melodies determine what I say.

If you love me, just say so. It's hard to listen to. This is no competition, not keeping school. Totally different words there. I had to say so. I knew I wanted to say that. That was such a simple concept to me. If you love me, you know, just say so.

I usually started the chorus, you know, just because that is the grand idea for me. So once I had the chorus, then I started to say, okay, well, why am I asking her to just say so, you know? So I started doing those verse voice notes. Eating hard for me to hold my own. Because no one wants to be in love of. I've wanted somebody to just say it to me, where it's like, I know we're here, but you're not really communicating. Are you feeling how I'm feeling? You know?

And it's something that I naturally felt connected to because I know how that feels to want somebody to just express their feelings. As a writer, what you're trying to always shoot for is coming from a specific place that's specific to what you feel and you write it. according to you, but, you know, a bunch of people can relate to it. And that's what got me to that first verse, which is getting hard for me to hold my own. Nobody wants to be in love alone. I did an old-school thing and did a maxi single, and it had this song first begin sticking to my guns, and it had Say So. I put it on there as the third song, almost like, I don't think it's as good as everything else, you know.

And I think for me, say-so was really kind of my throwaway. I knew the song spoke to me, but from a production standpoint, it just didn't, it wasn't as strong as everything else that I was working on. And when I listened to that version, it's like in the way. You know, the drums are in the way a little bit for me, even all the extra background vocals. It was just kind of in the way of this very simple message. So I pulled the whole thing. Just a memory, man. It was just going to be a memory. But what made me go back to it, because I was

kind of done with it, because I ripped the song from everywhere. So if you didn't buy it at the time, you don't have that first version. But I remember being in Australia and somebody requested it. And it was so long after that that I didn't even remember all the words. I tried to sing it for this couple because they said they got engaged on the song or something. I'm like, really? That song? And I would always see people referencing it. Where does that song say so? I used to listen to that all the time. So I was like, I got to take another look at it.

And that's when I started from scratch, really. I just wanted to see if this was even worth my time, you know. So I set my phone up at the piano and started to say, all right, let's see what we're trying to say. Sometimes I'll build a whole track and build a song and then go to the piano and see if it still speaks to me with nothing, with none of that production. It was just like, all right. let me give it the space it deserves so you can hear these simple words I'm trying to say to you. And I think it started to change for me immediately once I did that sort of different rhythm. It felt more like a conversation when I started to reimagine it.

I want somebody else to be saying this. I want there to be perspective here. I want it to feel like two people going through this actually. I was thinking of different singers to see who could work for this. And you'd think that a lot of people could just sing that because it feels simple, but it's not really. And so I knew it had to be a real singer. You know, it wasn't just somebody who was popping at the time. It was like, no, I need somebody who can really emote and get this message across.

And I had only met Jojo in person maybe one time prior to that. We didn't really know each other. I've always been a fan of her voice, but there was a story of her getting out of her deal finally that she had been stuck in for 10 years or something like that. And I was listening to her voice and I'm like, oh, you know what? She would be perfect for this. My name is Jojo. I think he asked for my email and said that there was something you wanted to send me and just, hey, let me know if you'd like this

and if you'd be interested in singing this with me. And first listen, I just loved the song. then once I was like, yeah, then we talked about, you know, who takes what part and how we could do it. The first verse was supposed to be me by myself initially. But once we got there, I was like, oh, let's do the whole first verse together. It's getting hard for me to hold my own. See, nobody wants to be in love alone. I thought there was something very beautiful.

about the fact that we were singing in octaves in the first verse. But I need to know right now, no lies just facts. It was really challenging and exciting for me to hear something that he did and be like, let me wrap my head around that. I can remember her saying, oh wait, you did a little curl right there. Just say so. She was the one that said, oh no, let me catch that. Just say so.

The runs that he hears in his head are out of this world. So it was like a masterclass for me in playing as a vocalist. Just say so. I need to know from you right now before I go. Oh, we're like a team. Like, we fit together. So the decision to have her by herself on the second verse, I think had to do more with the building of the song.

That was more of a production thing for me. And that I can feel I'm falling deep And I don't want to fall unless you're falling with me And that first line of the chorus I was like, okay, that's the way you're going to harmonize on top So if you love me Just say so Because I can't play these games with you no more

She's amazing, man. Then I started to build it and build the rhythm and the snaps and then eventually bringing that whole beat. No hi-hat there like it was in that original. I had little ghost snares. None of that's there. It's literally kick and block. I wasn't trying to take the attention away from the message.

I just was trying to add to it and it needed a push, but not so much of a push where it got in the way. I play bass, but I don't really try to play bass on my records. You know, I try to get real bass players. The bass player, my friend DJ, I remember calling him last minute. And I was like, hey, man, can you get to the studio, like now? And I had him do it really quickly. It's just that intro in the vamp.

And he was like, well, can I do it one more time? I was like, nope, that's all I need. Thank you. I like it. That has sort of become a signature of mine, putting both Mogue bass than live bass together. They speak different languages down there in that register and different textures.

You can't replace the human, the fingers going across those strings to give some life, but then the true bottom of that mog and the roundness of it and the wont-womp is something that I can't get out of the real base, so I just let them both live in there together. That's the high end of the Moog,

That's me playing three different layers of it because it's mono, so I couldn't play the harmony together. So it's me playing the and then da-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la. And they probably aren't totally a line, you know, but they dance together. They're alive, you know, they're human. So I don't need them to be perfectly together,

but kind of just gives a rain slide to me of melody. The song just kept getting bigger. as it went along. It was like, it started off as this little simple piano thing, and then it's like voices and voices and sounds. And it was doing exactly what I wanted to feel. I think we both, me and Jojo, both knew it when we left the studio like, man, we did something here. This is, this doesn't always happen. I felt like we were making a new classic. That's the reason it sat where it did for years, because I didn't feel that. But it's really some of my fans that made me

take another look at the song and I'm grateful because I would have left it. You know, I would have left it. I'm so happy that I didn't give up on it and really took the time to rethink it and come back to it. It makes it that much sweeter.

And now, here's Say So by P.J. Morton, featuring Jojo in its entirety. I mean to hope. Nobody wants to be in love alone. I'm trying to say so. I'm my best not to overreact But I need to know right now no lies just fat So if you love me

Just say so I can't play these games with you no more So if you love me Just say so I need to know from you right now Before I go I can feel I'm falling deep Visit songexploder.net to learn more.

You'll find links to buy or stream say so, and you can watch the music video for it. I have a new album of my own coming out on April 24th. It's been about 15 years since I last put out a full length, and this is the first one that'll be out under my own name, Rishi Kesh Her Way. I started making Song Exploder when I was feeling lost in my own music career. And then for over a decade, I've gotten to have these incredible conversations about the process of making music

talking to other artists, and it made me completely rethink my relationship to music and my way of writing songs. And this album is the product of all of that. It features contributions from some of my favorite artists, including some folks that you may have heard on this podcast, like Iron and Wine, Kevin Morby, Vagabon, Fenlily, and the producer Phil Wine Rope. I'm going to be on tour playing in cities across the U.S. starting in April, and I'm trying to bring the spirit of the podcast with me. So every show that I'm playing will begin with a conversation. about the album with a different amazing guest moderator in each city, like Adam Scott, Samin Nasrat, Jason Manzuchas, Josh Molina,

Minjin Lee, Ken Jennings, John Roderick, Austin Cleon, and more. They're all going to be my conversation partners on stage, and then I'll play with my band. The album is called In the Last Hour of Light, and the first couple songs are out now. You can listen to the music and get tickets for the shows on my website, Rishi-Cash.co, or just go to Song Your Song Your Song. That's songexploder.net slash live.

That's songexploder.net slash live. Thanks. This episode of Song Exploder was made by me with editing help from Tini Lieberson and Casey Deal. Carlos Lerma makes illustrations for each episode, which you can find on the Song Exploder website and Instagram. Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts.

You can learn more about our shows at Ration. Radiotopia.fm. If you'd like to support the podcast, you can get a Song Exploder t-shirt at SongExploder.net slash shirt. You can also follow the show on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook at Song Exploder. My name is Rishi Keshe Hereway. Thanks for listening.