Song Exploder - Sabrina Carpenter - Please Please Please

Episode Date: December 18, 2024

Sabrina Carpenter is a singer, songwriter, and actress. She had a huge year with her album Short N Sweet, which came out in August 2024. It debuted at #1, and went platinum within a month. At the upcoming Grammys, she’s nominated for Song of the Year, Record of the Year, Album of the Year, and more. One of her big hits is “Please Please Please,” which she wrote with Amy Allen and producer Jack Antonoff. He’s won Producer of the Year at the Grammys for the last three years in a row. For this episode, I talked to Sabrina and Jack about everything that went into making “Please Please Please.” For more, visit songexploder.net/sabrina-carpenter. 

You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs, and piece by piece, tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishi Kesh Hirwe. I have a niece who's nine, and she told me the other day that she loves Please, Please, by Sabrina Carpenter, but she knows that, quote, has a bad word in it. And the following conversation, talking about that song, also has bad words in it. So, Asha and everyone else, just a heads up, this episode contains explicit language. Before the day that you all started working on this song, was there a thought or an idea that was in your mind before you ever got to the songwriting stage?

I think it was just such a specific thing that I was going through, just like feeling like as a young woman one day you can be so confident and detached, and the next day you're, for lack of a better term, a desperate ho. And it was something that was making us laugh. And I feel like this song was the perfect way to kind of just lay it all out on the table, and also talk about something so openly that maybe we're normally just afraid of saying, which is like sometimes you're just embarrassed by men. Sabrina Carpenter is a singer, songwriter, and actress.

She had a huge year with her album Short and Sweet, which came out in August 2024. It debuted at number one and went platinum within a month. At the upcoming Grammys, she's nominated for Song of the Year, Record of the Year, Album of the Year, and More. One of her big hits is Please, Please, Please, Please, which she was, wrote with Amy Allen and producer Jack Antonoff. He's won the Grammy for Producer of the Year for the last three years in a row. For this episode, I talked to Sabrina and Jack Antonoff about everything that went into making, please, please, please. How did you two first meet? How did you first get in contact and decide to work together? I first saw you at my show. Yeah, it came to your show

at Radio City Musical. So this was probably like 2021. And I was playing a show and I couldn't see much, but I could see the big blonde head of hair. I actually could not see me from the stage. I think maybe someone afterwards told me you were there. I think that's what it was. Yeah. I've been aware of Sabrina's music and loved her work for a really long time. And then, like, two weeks later, I went to this party, and then Sabrina was there for some

reason. I remember you said hello to me, and you said that you were a big fan of mine. And I was like, I genuinely was so taken aback. He was talking to me about songs that I really cared about and parts of songs I really cared about. And, yeah, I was just really excited because I've loved everything he's ever made, pretty much except that one thing. And then you have to guess which one. And then we actually got together to work. And that day, as far as I remember, lighter girls, and please, please, please, please happened.

And the beginning of Slim Pickens. And the beginning of Slim Pickens, which is a pretty crazy studio day. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even to write two and a half songs, even if one and a half of them don't come out, just to get through that much work is a lot, but let alone three songs that actually make it. Not just make it, but are three of like my absolute favorite songs. Yeah. Was there any kind of nervousness on either of your parts when that they came? There's always a little bit of just hoping that there's good chemistry when it comes to writing before you ever write with someone. But when I first met Jack, it was very clear that we were just both sonically so on the same page and everyone being on the same page is something that you can't

really... No, that shit just is or isn't. That just happens. Yeah. Yeah. That kind of chemistry between two people is hard enough to find, but it wasn't just the two of you Amy Allen was in the room writing with you as well. How did that come about? How did she end up writing with you on this song? Amy and I had been writing together a lot. She's so smart and she's so fearless. And I specifically knew that, you know, after I had met Jack,

that Amy would be somebody that he also really clicked with and appreciated. And we just had a golden moment of the three of us all being super aligned. Well, can you tell me how that day started then? Is there a conversation between the three of you about what you wanted to write about? I definitely went into those days with so many ideas, but there's also something that's so magical about just letting Jack start playing and just starting to find your way there naturally. Like that initial idea came from those chorus chords. Yeah, I remember very vividly Jack playing these chords.

And Sabrina had this idea. I had the lyric, please, please, please before I knew what I ever wanted the song to be. Please don't prove them. And then that week, it's so happened to be when I was dealing with a specific scenario that I could really go, oh, isn't this funny? Like, this feels not only good to write about, but it felt really honest. And then on top of it, the way that we were able to make the song so playful, it really felt like electricity. And I remember even more specifically as getting to a place where it felt like the chorus was just coming out so quickly.

I was playing things and just watching Sabrina and seeing what was like. lighting her up. Because I gave him a real mean face when I don't like something. Yeah, it's like her and Amy are kind of locking in and working on things. Then I go off

and I'm starting to make noises. He moves like a little energizer bunny sometimes. He really is just moving around a lot. And then he'll be like, bring in the cello. Actually, no, let me get the bass.

Actually, okay, let me try the synth. I feel a lot of anxiety, good anxiety, because I feel like when you're working on a song, in the stages that like it is or isn't going to launch is a really anxious moment. Positive anxiety, but like I'm just like

not thinking about my body. I'm not thinking about like breathing and not thinking about anything. Like literally I could be like knocking into something. I just need to hear something coming out of the speakers that is proof of life. You know, I'd be doing things, I'm doing things. Then maybe I'd do something

and then everyone would kind of stop with your drink and be like, what's that? Like the guitar riff in the intro. Down, down, down. Yeah. And I was like, that's so cool. Any great song that I've ever grown up loving has this iconic musical riff that you get so excited the second you hear that riff. You're like, all my favorite song's about to start.

And it's that for me. But essentially you're looking for that all the time, just these things that are going to put the song in its best outfit. And for Please, it was like, it was somewhere between singer-songwriter country song band Nabar with a steady drumbeat. and then like the wobbly synths I was like if I can just get it right and I know Sabrina and Amy are going to go to the moon with it

I have good judgment I know I have good taste it's funny and it's ironic that only I feel that way I promise them that you're different and everyone makes mistakes but just don't I got really excited with the way the lyrics sounded

because I think Sabrina's voice is incredibly modern and incredibly classic at the same time. And I think that there's something about very directly playing with both of those things, quite literally. Like, here's an acoustic guitar and a live drum, which could have been played in 1972 or 2050. But then all of a sudden, here's Sabrina talking about something that's right now, but then she's also doing a run that's incredibly classic. But then we add a synth that feels like incredibly shocking. We're specifically clashing, extremely modern and extremely classic thing,

but almost in an absurd way the way they're happening. I think the thing I always struggled with since I was young and since I started writing songs was that I craved wanting to be able to accomplish kind of multiple things at once and still have it be something that felt fluid. And it's really cool to have someone understand that. I remember when I was 12, which is so crazy, but I signed with my label when I was 12, like a crazy person. Wow.

And I remember it was just such a thing of like having to, to know your genre and stay in that lane. And it was almost as if they expected every song to sound like that same thing. And that was really hard for me for a really long time. That was why when I did start making music, I remember always wanting to kind of just be like, why I have to make the same song? You know what I mean?

Like I want to make something that feels like multifaceted and something that feels different. I heard that you're an actor, so act like a stand-up guy. Whatever devil's inside you. Don't let them out tonight. I tell them it's just your culture and everyone rules their eyes. Yeah, I know.

The women I grew up idolizing, even my mother, always had that, let me give it to him straight, mentality. And I love when I can reflect that in something that can be sung so sweetly and then can be blunt two seconds later. I felt bad for the narrator and scared of her. You think. And I liked that. The very specific tone that I think I get a lot from Dolly, where I'm like, oh, that's so sad, but also I'm not about to fuck with you. I mean, she's queen of telling the God's honest truth.

And then you're sort of like, wait, did that just come out of that sweet woman? Like, what's going on? And the most exciting part was the second verse, because that was literally, Amy and I wrote that, I mean, five minutes while you were changing the key. Well, that was one of those great accidents where it's like we were fucking around with the key. We're like, where is this best? And so then we had these like two versions of the songs

and two different keys. And it's very odd. But I think it works so great because the lyrics that Sabrina has in the second verse is a dream. It's like it's not reality. It's like an idea. It's like she's like having this fantasy.

What if we did this? What if we stayed inside? What if the, you know, we started the ceiling fan? That can be nice. So the chords like lift into this place that feels suspended from the grounding reality songs in A. But then all of a sudden you're in C.

Well, I have a fun night. Dear babe, maybe just stay inside. I know you're craving some fresh air, but the ceiling fan is so nice. It's not a natural modulation. And then it's even more crazy, because then at that point you would stay in the modulated key for the chorus,

but then we go back down to A, which is another insane choice. I realize the reason why it works is because then it's like the bubbles burst, and we're back in reality. She's like, no, we're back at the table with her and she's saying, please, please, please, you know, don't embarrass me.

And that was one of those things that in the room where we were like, Why is this fucking working? I think super important to note it's all happening at lightning speed. Like, we weren't thinking so in depth of the meaning behind all of these choices and why they worked in the moment at that time. No, they made us laugh. They just made us laugh. They made us scream.

They made us dance around the room. And that was why we knew that it was what it needed to be. The only thing that was something that I felt like was a little more carefully crafted was from heartbreak is one thing. My ego is another. I beg you don't embarrass me, motherfucker. Heartbreak is one thing My ego You don't embarrass me

Motherfucker Hey When did you come up with Motherfucker Because that's something I don't remember You blacked out I just I remember

Like I can remember you going Please And thinking to myself Like that's great But I don't remember the moment Where you were like Motherfucker And I want to

Well we had heartbreak Is one thing My ego is another Because that's something That I said earlier that day. Which I think is always how great things happened, but so many of the lyrics in those songs

are literal things that you were saying in conversation. If you think about that, it's actually, truly just a conversation with myself. And that melody is such like a little like rainbow. Like it literally just goes, and then motherfucker came out like an ad lib. It literally just came out as we were finding the melody because initially we were ending that melody a lot higher.

Never went down a motherfucker until we kind of just were like, let's push it. Let's see how far we can start up here and it's super low. And it was so necessary for that little hick in me. And I think these were all day one vocals. I think it's so cool to hear that these are day one vocals because there are choices that you're making in terms of when you go from singing to talking. And there's even just one of my favorite moments is the note on stand-up guy, the way you change the, let me just play this part.

I heard that you're an actor So act like a stand-up guy Whatever devil's time Just that stand-up, the little... Yeah. Note change there, which is not in the first time that you do it. There are just little touches and flourishes. It's very hard to predict where you're going to go.

So I was wondering, like, is that something that, you know, you just like develop a ton in the off season so that when it comes time to record on the day, you're going to go wherever you want? Or these things that just sort of like, happened instinctively, and if you had thought about the more, maybe you would have done something differently. I'm dying to, I'm over there with him. I'm dying to hear this. Well, you, I feel like there's certain things that I feel really specific about being more methodical, and then other

things that feel like they need to be born out of a take where I'm just not thinking, and I just do it, and I just try things. So the first thing that you just pointed out, like, that was just me playing off of what Jack was playing. I heard that you're an actor, so act like a stand. So that wasn't something that was thought of or thought through. It was just a choice in the moment. So much of it is just like the initial instinct or the way that I would really say those things in real life blended into the way I would sing them. But also a lot of my favorite thing to do in songs is act.

Yeah. And I think that's really helped me in my songwriting is to perform the song, to actually picture having these conversations with this person as I'm singing it because then I can be as expressive or sarcastic and my voice can hit. notes that it would hit conversationally it just as much as, you know, I'm hitting the notes that I'm meant to be singing. And one thing to add to that about day one takes is like, the more you know a song, the less like afraid you are of it.

Whether you literally know it or whether you can just feel it, Sabrina's singing the song for the first time, second time. She's ever sung the song. There's no amount of surgery you could do to remove that vulnerability. The recording will live forever with this take of this person who's like, you know what, fuck it, I'm going to just sing this chorus, and your soul can feel like the person like diving off the cliff and singing that chorus. And I think that resonates to people. Heartbreak is one thing. My ego's another. I beg you don't embarrass me. Motherfucker.

More with Sabrina Carpenter and Jack Antonoff after this. I have a new album of my own coming out on April 24th. It's been about 15 years since I last put out a full length. And this is the first one that'll be out under my own name, Rishykech, her way. I started making Song Exploder when I was feeling lost in my own music career. And then for over a decade, I've gotten to have these incredible conversations about the process of making music, talking to other artists. And it made me completely rethink my relationship to music and my way of writing songs. And this album is the product of all of that. It features contributions from some of my favorite artists, including some folks that you may have heard on this podcast,

like Iron and Wine, Kevin Morby, Vagabon, Fenlily, and the producer Phil Winerobe. I'm going to be on tour playing in cities across the U.S. starting in April, and I'm trying to bring the spirit of the podcast with me. So every show that I'm playing will begin with a conversation about the album with a different amazing guest moderator in each city. Like Adam Scott, Samin Nasrat, Jason Manzuchas, Josh Molina, Minjin Lee, Ken Jennings, John Roderick, Austin Cleon, and more. They're all going to be my conversation partners.

on stage, and then I'll play with my band. The album is called In the Last Hour of Light, and the first couple songs are out now. You can listen to the music and get tickets for the shows on my website, rishikash.co, or just go to songexploder.net slash live. That's songexploder.net slash live. Thanks. I'd love to listen to this second verse with you, because I want to ask you about the back-and-forth that you do with your backing vocals here.

Well, I have a fun idea, babe Maybe just stay inside I know you're craving some fresh air But the ceiling fan is so nice And we could live so happily If no one knows they're with me I'm just kidding But really, really

Tell me about this part She's having fun Amy's laugh in the back Like it's just like There's like a little bit of truth to the joke I mean, the background vocals in this song are some of my favorite things I've ever made. And, like, you kind of just try shit. You throw it at the wall.

And sometimes it's too much. And sometimes it's just enough. And that was kind of one of those moments. And it just adds to the story. And it makes it feel like a real person. I got really excited with how perfect her voice is. I was like, there's a lot of space here to have the song feel kind of drunk around her. because she's so rock solid

and the way she harmonizes with herself is so masterful and perfect so it became about duality it's like you have the lindrum being very steady and you have a live drum playing around it the more steady lindrum was the more I loosened up my guitar picking

I really wanted you to hear like the person in the room it sounds like Sabrina with a band I mean that was my favorite thing about it I remember him playing drums live and just like watching him go ham and it was just one of my favorite things about Jack in general. But like it gives this song so much more life and it feels like you're hearing a real person singing about a real life

experience when you can kind of hear like the little imperfections that he leaves in intentionally like the room noise and just like the sound of him actually playing the instruments and like banging on keys a little too hard. Just those little things that really add so much character as opposed to everything being kind of so perfect. It's like this drunk feeling, but in the best way, it's like you're tipsy, but it's a good feeling. Like, I always want that feeling, like, right on the edge. Especially about a song like this,

especially about a song that was, like, desperately comical, and you're sort of needing to, like, laugh while you're talking about something that you could probably cry about or be angry at. And it's all those emotions, and you kind of want it to reflect in not only the chords, but the way that they're being played. Yeah, I'd love to listen to these.

guitar is jack that you're playing like even that Sabrina like you're saying the beginning of the track isn't just like coming in clean yeah yeah I'd like to point out because there might be someone listening right now that might be like

little pitchy my guy it's very intentional because tell them I would like to so when you have a singer that is pitch fucking perfect and very few are but Sabrina is it leaves so much

space to play around I'm playing the guitar pretty hard and kind of bending, you know, my fingers a lot. So they bend a little bit at a tune, but what it does is it frames the things that are pitch-perfect, which you always want. So that's why those takes not to be too clean or like perfectly in tune, because if every instrument is perfect in tune, then it can get a little bit like factory made. I think that there's a feeling in pop music and especially really commercially successful pop music that everything must have gone. gone through a million hands and a million producers and gotten quantized and tuned within an inch of its life so that it can be as accessible as possible for the largest number of people as possible. And I feel like this song is a very clear example of that not being the case.

Well, that's just like a school of thought. Like there's basically two schools of thought. Essentially, you think people are smart or you think people are stupid. Right? If you think people are stupid and you assume the worst of them, then you will dumb things down and clean it up and make it out of chemicals and serve them garbage, right? But I think people are brilliant and anyone I've ever been in the room with shares that belief. So we're sitting there pushing ourselves to the absolute brink to make something as interesting or beautiful or evocative or sonically fascinating as humanly possible. So it's not a rejection to pop culture or pop music. We're not sitting there being like, let's make it weird and bend these.

note so it freaks people out. It's literally, let's play it like this, let's sing it like this, let's do it like this, because this will be the most emotionally resonant. I just know from personal experience because there were so many years, I think, where I was sort of told, this is what people want, this is what people are looking for. And then, I mean, literally if you tell me that, I will go do the opposite because it's pretty much always proven to be correct. And I don't do that in a rebellious way. I do it in a way to preserve. my sanity, my own artistry, or what will keep me unique to myself. Jack, you kind of set up this tension between the locked-in groove of the lindrum

and then the way you're playing the acoustic guitars. Where in that continuum did you, were you thinking about the synthesizers? Were you thinking of them as being an element that would be more locked in? Or did you want to have those electronic elements feel human as well? I really thought a lot about the time period of music when things like the Jupiter or the Juno were entering rooms for the first time. The synthesizers you were using?

Yeah, one thing I love about like ELO or certain Beatles recordings or this time period is like someone's coming in with something no one knows how to work if they plug it in and they're just like, holy shit and they're messing with it until they hear something that just clicks.

And something about this song made me want to play synth on it and to me the synth is one of the more human things because it's played so strange, it's like a man fighting with the instrument. I just thought, what if I create these like bubbling sounds around Sabrina's voice? We recorded this rather quickly, but I think over time it grew, and so we found new things to add to it after that first initial day. I definitely knew from the moment that I left that I wanted a bridge,

but I think we ran out of time that day. I think someone had a dinner. It always happens. Someone, why are you looking at me? It wasn't me. Because no one else is in this room right now, but just know that it wasn't, probably was, honestly. Yeah, I think you had a dinner. I might have had a dinner that night.

But either way, I think what's really exciting for me, too, is taking space from a song and being able to sit with it for a couple weeks or in this case. I think it was probably about a month later. We were able to get in. We finished the bridge in Los Angeles here at Jack Studio. That was scary. I remember you were hesitant about. I was freaking out. Okay, so you have to understand.

We have the whole song except the bridge slash outro. And everyone was like, this is a little short. And it was clear that the song could have used one more thing, but it was like such a house of cards that I was pretty freaked out. But you really were like, I got this, we're doing this. I knew that there was more to say. And I also knew that the journey the song takes you on was already so we were soaring. That it was like, why not?

Let's see if we can soar a little higher. And if we do and we land, then we just made something even better. You want to do. Yeah. That's the pinnacle for me now. Yeah, and then that was also just, I've definitely said this to many men in my life. If you want to go and be stupid, don't do it in front of me. And I've said to many people, if you don't want to cry to my music.

Don't make me hate you prolifically. That I think right there is the genius of Sabrina. Those two lines. The first one is absolutely beautiful, heartbreaking. Everyone knows that everyone's felt that the artist is saying something better than you could ever say it. And then the second one is that and also so funny. And a big thing that working with Sabrina reminds me of is that all my favorite artists know exactly when to be funny because then it makes the really sad line that much more sad. I remember being so excited because I feel like that

song was a song that I'd waited my whole life to make. Same. And genuinely I still feel that way. Well, I was wondering, Sabrina, if you had to describe what this song was to someone who hasn't heard it yet. What would you tell them? Like, what's this song about? It's sort of a woman kind of already knowing what she's in for and just kind of saying it out loud so she can kind of hold accountability for herself at the end of the day. Like, she already knows she's going to get into trouble, so she might as well just own it. And I think that for me, I feel that way anytime I enter a relationship or anytime I start falling for somebody, I know that love and pain always go hand in hand. And so I think you're kind of mentally preparing yourself to be like,

you know what, I'm just going to enjoy this while I'm in it, because it's only a matter of time before they do something stupid or they say something to piss you off. And that's just the reality of relationships. This is a comical reoccurrence in my life and a lot of my friend's lives. So I think it's more about that honesty with yourself and just allowing yourself not to take it too seriously, even though it might be actually hurting you.

Do you find that the fact that you're drawing from multiple experiences, do you start to think that it's a type of relationship that you're drawn to, or this is just universal no matter who you're in a relationship with? Well, now we're getting into therapy territory. And if you're asking if this is a common thread in my life, I would say that this one is nearly autobiographical, so it's hard to get a twisted, I guess. And now here's Please, Please, Please, by Sabrina Carpenter in its entirety.

taste. It's funny and it's ironic that only I feel that way. I promise them that you're different. And everyone makes mistakes, but just don't. I heard that you're an actor, so act like a stand-up guy. Whatever devil's inside you, don't let them out tonight. I tell them it's just your culture. And everyone rules their eyes, yeah, I'm all I'm asking, baby. Or visit SongExploder. You'll find links to buy or stream, please, please, please, and you can watch the music video. This episode was produced by Craig Ely, Theo Balcom, Kathleen Smith, Mary Dolan, and myself. Our production assistant is Tiger Biscop.

The episode artwork is by Carlos Lerma, and I made the show's theme music and logo. This is the last episode of the year, and I just want to thank you for listening to and I want to thank all the artists who have been on the show this year. And I really want to thank Craig, Theo, Kathleen, Mary, Tiger, and Carlos, all my friends who have worked so hard on the podcast with me. Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts. You can learn more about all of our shows at Radiotopia.fm. And if you'd like to hear more from me, you can sign up for my newsletter.

You can find a link to it on the Song Exploder website. Song Exploder website. You can also follow me and Song Exploder on Instagram. And if you want to support the show another way, you can get Song Exploder merch, which includes a t-shirt, sweatshirt, tank top, a whole bunch of different options at songexplloter.net slash shirt. I'm Rishi Kesh Hereway. Thanks for listening.