Soul Boom - BJ Novak Outsmarts Rainn (Again)

Episode Date: April 23, 2026

B.J. Novak (The Devil Wears Prada 2, The Office) gets deeply reflective about fame, anxiety, and the hidden cost of success. From behind-the-scenes stories of The Office to honest reflections on regret, scarcity mindset, and spiritual growth. SPONSORS 👇 Proton 👉 (protect your privacy for FREE!) ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://proton.me/soulboom Cozy Earth 👉 Go to ⁠cozyearth.com/SOULBOOM⁠ for up to 20% off! Quince 👉 https://quince.com/soulboom⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⏯️ SUBSCRIBE!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠👕 MERCH OUT NOW! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠📩 SUBSTACK!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  FOLLOW US! IG: 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://instagram.com/soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://tiktok.com/@soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  CONTACT US! Sponsor Soul Boom: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Work with Soul Boom: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Send Fan Creations, Questions, Comments: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Executive Produced by: Kartik Chainani Executive Produced by: Ford Bowers, Samah Tokmachi Companion Arts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Brain teaser, what has hands but can't clap? A clock. What is a face and two hands but no arms or legs? A clock. What gets wetter the more it dries? A towel. What has one eye but cannot see? A needle.

What can travel around the world without? A stamp. F***. Uh, BJ, welcome to Soul Boom. Thanks. You ready? I think so. Do you think or do you know?

I think. Welcome to Soul Boom. Hey there, it's me, Rain Wilson, and I want to dig into the human experience. I want to have conversations about a spiritual revolution. Let's get deep with our favorite thinkers, friends, and entertainers about life, meaning, and idiocy. Welcome to the Soul Boom podcast. A quick shout out to our sponsors. For Proton, go to Proton.m.m.m. to take control of your private and digital life. Head to cozyearth.com and use my code soul boom for up to 20% off. That's code soul boom for up to 20% off.

And if you get a post-purch survey, be sure to mention you heard about cozy earth right here. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash soul boom for free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash soul boom. Enjoy the show. About six inches from your face is great. That's what she said. I know.

And then if it's like under your chin. That's what she said. Can we use that? I played office trivia. I had it in my house from when they sent it to all of us. And a friend said, we got to play office trivia. And I didn't know much, but it was all familiar, you know, because I knew what the pitches were. It's all vaguely familiar.

It was like, where did Toby go to high school? I'm like, I remember what the pitches were. I forget what we went with. But it really made me appreciate how funny it was. I'm not talking about my own writing, but one piece of this was funny. And I think so many people, I don't know if it's, if you got the same experience, they come up and they're like, I love the office. I fall asleep to it.

You know, people talk about it with such comfort. Do you forget, oh, why we love doing it so much is because it was really funny. Yeah. When it was cooking, it was funny. I met a woman the other day and she was like, my son had just discovered the office and I came in to the TV room and he was literally crying. And I was like, what's wrong? Why are you crying? And he's like, it's so funny. Really? I thought you're going to say Jim and Pam got married or something. No, no, no. He was literally crying from having laughed so hard at the episode that tears were

coming down his face from. What was the episode? I'm like, did I write it? That's what I should chair model. Yeah. It is great to see you. It is really nice to see you. In your home, You've decorated it so beautifully. Yeah. You were complimenting my design style choices here. Yeah. Pretty good, right? Beautiful.

This is the whole house. I think it's great that you live so humbly. Yeah. Yeah. I have a little futon rolls out under this table. Yeah, you're not doing those cameos. You're like, I'm happy in this one room. One room shack.

Let Brian Baumgartner have the mansion. I am happy in this little cabin. It's nice to know that cameo is there for me if I need it. Do you know what I mean? Like I really was thinking the other day, like if I, for some reason, I get sued and my house burns down again, I can just turn to the cameo and I could probably break it in. I read an interview with John Travolta. By the way, I love celebrity interviews. So many things that are my wisdom are from celebrity interviews and magazines when I was like a teenager.

Anyway, Travolta said that when he was famous, he went to a restaurant where celebrity. ate free. It was like some corny Italian restaurant. And you're just like, oh, thank God. Like, if I ever, like, go broke, I can always eat. It's always. And I so understand that mentality. Yeah. Yeah. You think like any little thing, you're like, okay, okay. It's a, I can count on that if I need it. It's a deprivation mentality. It's like people that grew up in like an orphanage, they've done tests on this and then they grow up and they become millionaires later in life. They will still hide like cookies and sandwiches under their mattress, like just to like to feel like, okay, I know that cookie's there and I'll be able to eat something.

I had a friend who used to babysit a girl who was adopted from an orphanage and she ate like this because she was used to other orphans stealing her food in like a, you know, a foreign country. Yeah. Yeah. And Regis Philbin would take soda cans from his dressing room if he did a talk show. If he did the Tonight Show, you know, in the dressing room had a couple of things. Diet Coke, he'd put them in his back.

Regis Philbin. For the five cent? No, not the empty cans, although, who knows? But, like, he's like free soda. It's a buck. I did an event with Arthur Brooks, a book event, and they had all these snacks laid out. Yeah. I took them for my bag, pistachios, mango fruits, Aussie bites, true fruits.

These are real off-brand. Where did you get these? From Arthur Brooks book event. Yeah. And they had these in the world. waiting room. I think they got them. Fuel Buffalo-style chicken stick. I think they got them free, too. This is not, you know, they don't sell this at sprouts. Do you know what I mean? A larabar. They sell those at sprouts. Yeah, that's a real brand. So I'm just saying I do the same thing.

Yeah, I'm a cheap bastard. So are they. Uh, Kartik, what else? Oh, we want to do the act off. Yes. Okay. So one of the things we do, BJ, is we have an act off. And I've done it a couple of times on the show. The fans love it. So here's the scenario. There's a scenario. Okay. And this is an homage to the devil wears product. Three, two, two.

And that is we're fashion designers. That's our character. We're from Greece. Hmm. Not the musical. Perhaps we have a slight deformity that informs who we are. It's not visible, but we carry that around. It could be.

be. I'm going to have mind being visible. Okay. But it's affected me psychological. I'm going to have mind be visible. Okay. Great. Different acting styles. And a model comes into, the stakes are very high. Which model? Claudia Schiffer. Is she still alive? Alive, I think so. Yeah. Okay. So Claudia Schiffer comes in. Is that a model? And then she looks great and we say fabulous. She's alive. And we say fabulous. And then we see that it's done wrong or it's falling apart or something is very wrong with it. And we say not so fabulous. But we say that out loud.

Yeah. The lines are fabulous, not so fabulous. And then all the investors that are, the stakes are high because they're coming in to invest in our fashion company, or deformed Greek fashion company. And then as they come in, we shart. Do you know what sharding is? Yes. Yeah.

I just recently turned 60 and I was on a dog walk with my wife and I sharded. Oh my. And I had to tell my wife, I'm like, honey, you're not going to leave this. It wasn't a really bad one, but I had to like abort the dog walk and go tend to my Nether region. At least it was, you were outside. I was outside with the trusted. See, you always look on the positive.

I love that. And then we say the word fabulous again. So again, Clutty Shipper comes in, fabulous. We see things wrong. The stakes are high because investors are coming into our fashion line. Things are falling apart. Not so fabulous. The investors come in.

We shart and then we say the word fabulous again and that's the scene. Okay. Okay. So I'm going to try it first. Okay. Okay. So okay. Okay.

Here we go. Fabulous. Fabulous. Fabulous. And scene. Wow. It was pretty broad. It was very good, though.

It was broad. It was long for a ride. It was definitely in a, in a, in a, John, it was in a specific genre. Do you want to do it again or? I loved it. Okay, I'm going to stick with it. I think you got the role. I would like to say, you think I got the role?

Not only do you have the role. You know how in chess you resign if you're going to lose? That's not. I think I'm going to resign. That's not possible. You have the role. We need content. The guy before me just got the role. We need content. It's just such a different, right, different perspective. Just put it in a different genre. Okay, I'll do it the way I would do it. Okay. So fabulous, not so fabulous. Can you give me the cue for the physical? So what do you mean?

You have physical deformity? No, the shart. Just have the first AD. I'll shart. So I know when the sound effect is laid in. I'll set out. Do you want the sound effect? No.

No. I will say shart when it's time to shart. Yeah. Okay. Anytime. So it's fabulous, not so fabulous, fabulous. Model comes in, fabulous. Uh-oh.

It's falling apart things out. It would also help me. Yeah. As the director off camera, you just, call out because this is what they would do if we were filming Spider-Man on green screen. Right. You know, Claudia enters. Okay.

Investors are in, stuff like that. Yep. Okay, you got it. And action. Fabulous. I didn't say Claudia Schiffrey enters. That was an improv. He's just excited.

Okay. Here we go. And still rolling? Sound? Still rolling. Action. Enter Claudius. shiffer. Fabulous. Oh, the dress is falling apart. It's falling apart. There's so many things

wrong with it. Doors open. Income, all these investors from Wall Street and sharp and cut. Good. Good, good, good. Very internal. Very internal. I knew what the other actor had done, so I needed to bring my signature subtlety. I like that. And that really worked well in a close-up. That's what I was going for. We weren't on a close-up. Well. We're on a cowboy mid-shot. I thought you're the director here. You're going to tell me what we're on. Well, it is.

John Lee Hancock would have told me all the framings. It is at 8K so we can cut in. So just a note to the editor. Let's do a lot of push zooms on his lines in the cut. Thank you. I think it's a tie. I think there's just two very different styles. Great.

You know, we spend a lot of time thinking about the soul on this show and who we are, what makes us human, what belongs to us. But there's another part of our identity. Most of us never even think about. protecting our digital life your email is basically the master key to everything now i mean it's got your travel plans get your passwords personal conversations your bank accounts and yet most email providers treat email like a product they scan messages they track when you open emails they build advertising profiles based on what you say and who you talk to proton was built to change that

it was created by scientists who believe that privacy should be the default online not something you have to fight for. Today, more than 100 million people use proton products around the world. With Proton Mail, your emails are end-to-end encrypted. Only you can read them. Not advertisers, not data companies, not even Proton itself. No ads, no trackers, no scanning your messages to train AI models. Just email that actually belongs to you. And I love this feature. Proton even lets parents reserve an email address for their child for up to 15 years so they can grow up with a clean digital identity that hasn't been tracked since birth. So if you want your online life to be a little more private and a little more human, learn more at proton.m-me slash soul boom, because you were born

private and frankly, it should stay that way. Here at Soul Boom, we talk a lot about consciousness, awareness, spiritual awakening, a spiritual revolution. But let's be honest, none of that happens if your sleep freaking sucks. Enter cozy Earth. When I learned that your body naturally cools down at night to trigger melatonin and that helps you fall asleep faster and stay asleep. I knew I needed sheets that actually soothed me, not itched me. Cozy Earth sheets are made from bamboo viscous that naturally helps regulate temperature and wick away heat and moisture so you actually sleep cooler and more comfortably. And you notice it immediately. They're incredibly soft. They breathe really well. The whole bed feels calmer. Cozy Earth also offers a hundred

night sleep trial and a 10-year warranty so you can try them risk-free because good sleep isn't a luxury. It's the foundation of being a functional human. Discover how care in every detail transforms simple routines into moments of true comfort and ease. Head to cozyearth.com and use my code soul boom for up to 20% off. That's code soul boom for up to 20% off. And if you get a post-purch survey, be sure to mention that you heard about cozy earth right here. Experience the craft behind the comfort and make every day feel intentional. Do you do theater?

I know you did theater. Do you still do theater? I did Waiting for Godot here in LA. You should have seen it. Thanks for the invite. You loved it. Didn't get that invite. I would have loved it.

Who was the other guy? Ahsif Manvi. Oh, wow. He's great. Do you know Adam Stein? Do you know Adam Stein? No. It was great cast.

It was a lot of fun. Yeah. And then I did Yurantown, the musical in New York for a little while. I don't get these texts. Well, okay. Okay. You wouldn't cut. You don't like the theater.

You text when you go to the theater. She ended exaggerating. You were like in the like the front row of like Hades Town. I did not text. I did not text. I fell asleep on Edward Albee's shoulder, which is about as disrespectful as it gets. But it was not intentional at all. It was a cozy moment.

That could be on your gravestone fell asleep on Edward Alby's shoulder. It was. I did feel like like God had. had validated like, yeah, you really don't like theater. Your front row at, it was Cherry Jones in doubt, front row. Because Mindy told me like, we're going to see some good theater, I promise you. You're going to like theater. Front row at Doubt on Broadway.

I'm sitting next to Edward Alby and I fall asleep on him. And I have liked some theater in my life. Did you drool on him a little bit? I hope so. I don't know. Fuck theater. I actually did just write a play. So we'll see how that goes.

You wrote a play? Yeah. Is there a role in it for me? That's my first thought. Yeah, I know. That's my first thought, literally. Now that I know you do theater. You know I come from the theater.

I do. And from clowning as well. And clowning. Yeah. As well. It's really cool. Yeah. You know what I saw that was great theater?

What's that? It's called Weir, W-E-E-R. Natalie something. Portman. No. Someone with a clowning background. She's good, though. She's great.

But this woman, and then she went to London and she has a clowning background and her physicality is incredible and it's a one woman show. Weird. W.E.R. Yeah. It's really, really good.

Yeah. Really cool. You saw a woman clowns. You saw a woman clown and you thought of me. Well, because I know you also have an actual formal clowning training. Yes. And the thing that brought me to Los Angeles originally was a bitch clown and I was like, that's like my buddy.

That's where I was going. That's where I was going. But what brought me to L.A. originally is I had a clown troupe called the new Bozina. And we came from New York and we brought our clown, our weird ass clown show. I mean, it was freaking weird. You're like, even for a clown shows. This was weird. No. We had a scene in it where a young man was having sex with a giant bird. So that's kind of how weird it was. It was pretty out there. Sort of more R-rated than the circus stuff I saw with clowns. Yes. Yes. And we. We got like a TV deal and we did a pilot presentation at Fox.

And that became the office. Oh, sorry. What? And that went nowhere, but it got me a manager. Okay. And that was your way in. That was my way in, was doing weird clowning in Hollywood. Was there a two person show you were in?

A two person clown act? You and someone else or no? No. Okay. No. But Nubozino was three clowns plus me. Okay. When I was the director and I played some other small roles.

And I directed it. So that was still on people's minds when I met you because people would be like, oh, Rain Wilson, you know, he's really talented. Did you ever hear about that? Yes. It was, I'm proud to say that that show, the new Bozino was kind of legendary for the people who saw it. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. And there were a lot of people like, very fringe celebrities, people like Josh Charles or someone like that, then they would come back and they would see it again and again and again, all these like odd minor television celebrities where they're like, this is my fifth time. Like, wow, Josh Charles has seen the show five times. It was pretty great. I don't have any actual questions to ask you.

That's fine. Well, I have things to bring up. Okay. What do you want to ask me? I'm on Zuma Beach this weekend in Malibu. And a kid runs up to me and he goes, Ryan. And I say hello to him. And he's like, a big fan.

I live the office. And I say, you know, I'm seeing Dwight this week. And he goes, my cousin does his pool. Jim Jones, is that who does your pool? Yeah, Jeff Jones. Jeff Jones, yeah. Yeah, but Jeff Jones quit doing my pool. And I know, I have this guy Emmanuel now, but Jeff started doing.

So this guy was lying to me. Well, kind of, but Jeff Jones now does, where he cleans up after fires and disasters in your house and then half our house burned down. And we hired Jeff Jones to come clean up our house and all the burn stuff. He did all the cleaning the burn, the soot and the smoke. and stuff like that. He's great. If you're in Ventura County, look up Jeff Jones.

I feel like we're bearing the lead here. How's your house? I mean, here we are in the remnants of it. It's 16 months later, we just moved back into our bedroom. It was, it has been, it has been awful. Okay, but it survived. But it survived. Okay.

And I'm grateful for that. How spiritually did you respond to it? Did it test you? I did not spiritually respond very well to it. Really? Yeah, I would say like as a spiritual test, half of my house burning down, I give myself a D plus.

Wow. Have you reflected on that? I have. What does it mean to you? Well, because you're obviously very spiritually conscious person in general. You know, spirituality is where the rubber meets the road. Like you can think about it philosophically, but how do you apply it?

So I did not take it seriously enough. I did not acknowledge the amount of stress and disruption it was going to cause in my life. Were you in denial? I think a little bit. I think that I have been through so much kind of like weird. trauma as a kid growing up that I was just like, I just gritted my teeth and thought like, oh, this is fine, whatever. I'm just going to keep doing my thing. And then we moved into a motel for a couple weeks. And then we were in a couple different Airbnbs and they sucked. And then we

moved back in the guest room. But then they were replacing the roof and we had to move out again. And I didn't, it was stressing me out and it was disrupting me and really kind of fucking with my head in a lot of ways and my anxiety. And I should have from the get go been like, this is a huge disruption. I need to take some time off. I need to find the most peaceful, beautiful place away from my home that I can go live at for a very long period of time. This is going to take a long time instead of a motel. Instead of a motel. And where there were people living behind the dumpster at the motel. and I should have really responded with kind of self-care and patience and an understanding that for someone with high anxiety like myself, a generalized anxiety disorder, if you want to be more

specific, that I should have like responded and with a lot more prayer, meditation, self-care, nature, et cetera. And I really didn't. And both my wife and I, I think we'd both give ourselves D pluses because we just tried to soldier on and motor on in a way that was really not helpful to our mental health. And have you sort of come to terms with that now? And now you're like, oh, okay, now I have perspective. I do. And I won't let that happen again. And that's kind of how life works, isn't it?

Is there anything that you have been tested on spiritually that you feel like, oh, wow, I wish I would have played that differently? You know, I would say very luckily so far, because we all will be tested. I have not been tested with much tragedy. I would say that I have been tested with having good fortune and luck that I didn't deserve, that I did not appreciate that as a gift as much. I always see the danger and the stress and the what if in something good. And I think that's another spiritual test, you know. Well, you and I talked about that when the book Soul Boom came out.

The very first event I did was with you in New York. And thank you so much for doing that. It was really fun. It was a great conversation we had at the Y, 93rd Street, Y. Ninety-second Street, Y, one of those, in the high 90s. And we talked about, and I've referenced it several times, about looking back on the office with regret in the fact that we didn't enjoy it more. Yeah. That we didn't just savor.

Like, hey, this is, you can work your whole life. It's never going to get better than this. This is as good as it gets. I mean, look at these writers. Look at this cast. Look at the audience and the way that we've been embraced, even by the Hollywood establishment. And let's just make some fucking great television.

And don't worry about what the next thing is. Yeah, but I forgive myself learning how hard it was for everybody. It was hard for you. It was hard for the writers and the staff. When you hear about people who are on SNL, you also imagine they're told by all their friends, is this the dream come true and they're very stressed? So I forgive us because it is stressful for everyone. That said, yeah, if I could go back, I would just take in like, hey, there's nowhere else

to be. You have the best writers you've ever met. You write stuff, you give it to the best funniest actors in the funniest combination that you'll ever be with. And everyone will pay you to do it. Have fun, best time of your life. And instead, it's constantly, I think, for you too, for all of us. What if it goes wrong? What could go better? What's going to happen

after this? Are we going to get canceled? What am I going to do next? Why did they cut my favorite scene? Why did they cut my favorite line? Do they hate me? You know, so all of that, paranoia and stuff, it's just, it happens to everyone. Not everyone, but it happens to many people in this. You're very forgiving of yourself in a way that I haven't been. And I could learn from that as well because I've been pretty hard on myself over the last few years thinking, kicking myself like, God damn it. Rain. Like it's kind of like my house burning down. Like, why couldn't I have just enjoyed it more?

And of course, there were times. There were years when I just loved it and just was like, this is fucking great. And I had, I remember people coming up like, you realize it doesn't get any better than this. And I was like, yeah, I know. Yeah, yeah. I fully knew that I was never going to get a better job than the office while I was on the office. And at the same time, I think it goes back to the woman from the orphanage that hides the cookies under her mattress that I had been kind of a starving actor for so long and so much struggle. My first 10 years of being an actor doing theater in New York, I never made over $20,000 in a year from being an actor for 10 years.

So for me, it's like, oh, wow, here I am at 40, famous at 40. And I'm getting some movies. They happen to be kind of box off as bombs. But one was James Gandalfini's favorite movie, though. The Rocker. It was. And we're going to, we should get to that. It was that same mentality of like, I'm never going to have enough on deprivation.

And like, I have to get my movies now. And I have to. But even though, like, Why? Like, I was making enough money and I can always go to, like, cameo and fan conventions. Yeah. I'll be fine. Well, I think it's very common. It's such a scarcity mentality. I think everywhere, especially in Hollywood in that era, I'm sure. Like, remember, Entourage was on. It was all about the hustle and everything. That was the culture. I was on Entourage. Who'd you play? I played a movie. I played a fat movie reviewer who got bribed with strippers.

Okay. Well, the physicality was that was. was your call. You wanted him to be fat or not? No, they described him as being fat. He was based on Harry Knowles, the extremely, remember that guy who was very famous and very fat. Did you wear stuff? I think I just looked slovenly and kind of like stuck my tummy out a little bit. Yeah. But let's go to the fact that James Gandalfini loved the rocker. Yeah. And the rocker kind of famously really bombed. I think it's a really fun, terrific movie. And wasn't Emisci Emma Stone in it too. And that was Emma Stone's.

I think it was her second movie role. That's the kind of movie, though. They put it on Netflix, and it's all of a sudden the number one movie in the world for the year. You know, like you never know. Yeah. Yeah. You hear that Netflix. But James Gandalfini very famously said in a New York Times interview is like, I love the rocker is my favorite film.

Yeah, I don't have you very famously said that, but very famously to us. Very famously in a circle. In the yes. But then I went. Indofini, the guy who loved the rocker. Yeah. Then I saw him in this play. and I was like so excited to meet James Gandalfini, of course.

And he didn't care? No, it was the opposite. He saw me and he was like, oh, no way. I swear to God. That's so amazing. He came around the corner, saw me and he was like, oh, oh, oh, oh, no. The Rocker. Oh, that's my favorite film.

That's incredible. Yeah. And that feeling, I was on six feet under before the office, and I went to this HBO screening of American Splendor, great movie, Paul Giamatti, and Eric Idol was there from Monty Python. And I grew up watching Monty Python and he looked at me and he's like, oh, you're wonderful in six feet under. And being like recognized and complimented by one of my childhood heroes, those are the moments that really hit my heart. Yeah. Have you had some great celebrity moments? I have. I have. I'll say that I always

take them as, again, not appreciating your good fortune. I'm like, well, they don't mean me. They mean like, your face means this show, which I love. So I'm like, probably the line you're picturing, I was reacting to Dwight or a line that you know I'm a writer, but the line that you love was actually written by, you know, Justin Spitzer or whatever. So I have trouble taking it. But it has happened to people that I, you know, love and admire would come up to me. I think here's hot take. That's what the kids say. Hot take.

I think Ryan is one of the least appreciated characters on the office. And you couldn't have the office without Ryan, the temp, running from the beginning to the end. That there is something about him. Yeah, yeah. That is this glue. And there's something about his ups and downs that really holds the show together. No, it's definitely part of the DNA of the show. I will say that.

That said, I definitely think anytime anyone compliments me in the office or, in general. I do think of it as a collective. Who's, who are the biggest, weirdest, celebrities that have complimented you? Sean Penn. Um, I felt that that was, I've met Sean Penn. He never said a thing to me about the office. Maybe he likes, maybe he likes Ryan. He's just, come to think of it. Yeah. He is kind of a Sean Penn vibe. Yeah, there's a little bit of that. Yeah. Um, Sean Penn. And I felt, you know, I, I don't even feel like I'm in the same profession as Sean Penn in terms of the level of actor. Yeah. Actor he is. And Merrill Street on this movie.

movie. Oh, nice. And that was obviously exciting as well. This is the devil wears Prada three, two. Two. Yeah. Why didn't they make two sooner? You're like, why didn't they skip right to three? Yeah. Well, I mean, shouldn't the devil wears Prada was like, I'm sorry, that was like 20 years ago. I'm sorry. I have nothing to do with that. Yeah, but why didn't they make two like, I'm like, 11 years ago? Like I should have called them and been like, guys, when are we doing this? And I should be in it. Because they should be on devil is proud of like five by now. I don't think they thought of it as a franchise.

In retrospect, it makes a lot of sense because everyone loves it. But yeah, that's not the kind of movie I think they think of as like, you know, to be continued at the end. Is the Tooch in it? I'll take it seriously. Yeah, everybody's in it. The Toch is in it. Everybody's in it.

But I'll tell you something that's funny. Adrian Grenier is not in it. He's not in it. I'm in it. Just Thoreau's in it. Okay. Funny. Yeah.

I think we were like the two main straight white guys in the movie. That's good. That's a good burn. if he ever betrays you. Yeah. Hard not to love that guy. Really? And you know what the secret is?

He loves you. Do you know what I mean? He's a loving. He's a loving person. The most popular people are the people who like people the most. Have you heard this study? No. Yeah.

The study was about kids in school, what makes a popular kid? Yeah. And the highest correlating and I think causing factor is the kids that like the most kids are the most popular. And a lot of the people that everyone's like, dude, Justin Thoreau, best guy in the world. And I'm like, you just have a cross. on him because you think he's cool.

Yeah. And he is a very cool guy. He was in Mulholland Drive. Yeah. But he is so giving and friendly as a person that that's why everyone's like, I love that. Oh, nice. So I love that guy too. We both got our start on six feet under.

I think it was in the same time. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. He has a much bigger and better career than I. I'll say this though about the role that I play in Devil Wars Part of 2. When anyone heard that I was cast in this movie, they were like, oh my God, that's incredible. Are you the villain?

And I'm like, first of all, who says I'm not a fashion editor? Yeah. Or a love interest. Second of all, a movie like this doesn't even have a villain. Yeah. It's a romantic comedy. It's like Avengers movie. It's like Cruella Deville or something.

Third of all, there is a villain in the sense that it's called the devil. Yeah. And we know who the villain is in that sense. So like, you really have to see me a certain way. Be like, oh my God, are you the villain? Will Satan be making an appearance in the Devil Wars Prada too? I can't confirm any plot details, right? I think it could be like Rosemary's baby

where the baby has grown up from the 1970s, do the math to being now working in the fashion industry for Meryl Streep. Yeah. That same baby, you could combine them. Crossover? Jason Blom, are you listening? I do think that if you went full supernatural

on a Devil Wars Protitude movie, yeah, that would be a big surprise to people. Be like, oh shit. They really meant devil this time. Yeah. I think surprising people with genre would be is one of the great under used. Yeah. I think it's never been used as far as I know to go deep in a movie.

Right. Before you're like surprise. This is a total freak show horror movie. Well, like how horrifying would it be if it was like a really good, I'm thinking like 2000s Matthew McConaughey romantic comedy? Right. And then it just like gets horrifying. It's really dark.

Like jump scares and like intestines coming out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, people would be so scared. Yeah. Who do you play in it? I, who do I play? Hey, folks, let's get real. I don't know how to dress myself.

Everything I own is outdated or gives me a rash. And that's why I started wearing quints. Finally, I can replace all of my staple pieces. You know, the shirt from 2009, the sweater that shrank in the wash. See, eventually you realize that the goal isn't having more clothes. It's actually having clothes that, work together, like this delicious linen red Quincy shirt. Quince makes really well-built everyday essentials,

lightweight cashmere sweaters, short sleeve Mongolian cashmere polos, linen shorts and pants, teas made from 100% Pima cotton. And the reason they're affordable, it's actually quite simple. Quince works directly with top factories and cuts out the middleman. No luxury brand markup, no expensive retail stores. Those linen shorts have become my go-to.

I'd be wearing them right now, but the producer refused to help me pull them up. The point is, they don't wrinkle like cheap linen does. They work with everything and they don't cost a fortune. Right now, go to quince.com slash soul boom for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year to build your wardrobe and love it. And you will. Now available in Canada too.

So don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to Q-U-I-N-C-C-E dot com slash soul boom for free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash soul boom. Well, now I like... Can you say... He said a bit saying. What? You like not saying?

Okay. We'll stick with that. I play when you see me in it, you're like, of course. I play the kind of guy that you play a dick. Hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You play kind of a snarky dick. That's not how I see it. That's not how I ever see it.

You play like a prickly bitch. Dude, this is how you see what I do, but I do, I do, I do, you know. You play a charming, loving bitch. Snarky bitch. Snarky bitch. I've never seen you wear as nice a sweater. And I thank you for that. And did you steal that from the movie.

I did steal some stuff from the movie. I don't think I stole this from the movie. Okay, it goes with your eyes. They're so beautiful. Thank you so much. You guys don't know. One thing you need to know. For Michael Scott of you right now.

BJ Novak is his eyes are incredibly beautifully blue. That is a little bit, Michael Scott. I know. I wish you could see it a person. I know it doesn't translate. Let's talk about something serious. I want to talk about your dad. I got to meet your dad.

Oh, yeah. He interviewed. me for the Bassoon King in Boston at a big book event. Great. And that was your idea. And William Novak or Bill or William. Exactly. Either way. And he's a famous ghost writer and a writer. Yeah. And one of the things I'm really intrigued by is one of his books is the big book of Jewish humor jokes. So big book of Jewish humor. Yeah. And you have talked to. about that as being a seminal book and an important book. I'd just love to hear about your connection to having a ghostwriter dad and this big book of Jewish humor and how that's influenced you.

Well, I, you know, the great gift that it was for me is that it made all the things that I love to do seem like a normal thing to try to pursue. Like an extension of your family and your heritage. Yeah, like when I wanted to be a writer, no one was like, whoa, that's a really, risky thing to do. They're like, great, go for it, you know. Or I want to do comedy. They're like, we love comedy. So, and I think growing up in a house where that was normal was an amazing, amazing thing. And that book, I love that book. I mean, that book, Jewish humor is so much about outsmarting a situation or cleverness because the Jew is so often the underdog in, in traditional, you know, European society and everything where it developed. So it was a lot about like, yeah,

sort of ironic points of view on things. And I just love that. Do you remember any jokes from the big book of Jewish humor? I remember a lot. What are my favorites? I'll have to close with it because I need to kind of sift in my mind somewhere along. Okay. Okay.

Yeah. What was your dad like as a dad and a writer? Was he just always often his office like typing away or something like that? Yeah, he made it seem like a very normal profession. He had an office on the third floor of our house and he would have tea and toast in the morning and then go up to his office and write all day and then come down for dinner. It was very, it was very normal, even though it doesn't sound like a normal profession to be a ghost writer or a celebrity ghostwriter. It was like, you know, it was like a carpenter going to the

garage. John Cheever famously used to do that, the short story writer, where he would commute in to an office and work and type from nine to five. Yeah. And write his short stories and come home and have a martini. Yeah, I love that. Sometimes I have borrowed an office to right and I do so well. I should do it all the time because I realize like never once have I gone to the gym with my gym bag and my shorts and my headphones and not worked out. I've never gone to the gym and like, I don't know, I got a smoothie. I texted.

I lost track of time. Ever. I've done that. You have. I have done that. You've gone all the way to the gym and not worked out. I have gone to the gym and then been on the phone and replied to some emails and then got like a smoothie and then like, oh, fuck it.

I go back. Really? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's really funny. I'm going to say at least, at least five times. Okay. Okay. Well, that to me is, that's not on my sort of realm of possibility. It's not in your arousal template. Yeah. So I can procrastinate. I thought with the best of them, but that's, that's impressive. Yeah. That said, going to an office, I had the same idea. Like, am I going to like get on the subway and take out a laptop and like plug in my stuff and just email? people like obviously I'm going to work yeah so I think it's a really good thing I just don't do it

why not it's just too much hassle it just it seems so wasteful you're gonna rent a space you know Brad Copeland he's gonna drive somewhere yes Brad Copeland does that he's got an office a lot of people do yeah a lot of people do a lot of people don't yeah there's a great book I love called daily rituals that just compiles what all the great artists writers scientists and history what did they do every day oh wow when did they wake up when did they have their meals what was their routine and they're pretty different Do you have any? The answer is like, there's no correlation really.

Besides. A lot of amphetamines, to be honest, a lot. Every morning when William Faulkner would wake up. Honestly. A lot of them. That was part of their routine. They had no shame about it. It was like a cup of coffee to them.

But coffee is essentially an amphetamine. Coffee's big for everyone. Morning is big, although night is big too. Do you have any rituals? No, I'm the worst afternoon. Like few people work in the afternoon, although plenty, you know. You work in the afternoon. I try to work in the morning and then I'm just my mind is wandering.

I'm procrastinating. And then finally I'm like, damn it, I got to get going. But I think that might be good for people to hear. You know, it might be valuable for people to hear. Totally. Because you hear all these people on the podcast like, I'm up at 4 a.m. and I'm Mark Wahlberg and I'm doing pumping iron at 4.30. I think I'm going to do that.

I always think tomorrow's the day. Tomorrow I'm going to wake up early and do it. I wake up. My mind's not ready. Yeah. I'm in a bad mood so I'm not ready or I'm in a good mood. so I want to rely. There's always a reason. Here's my problem. But if you clear the whole day, you'll get your hours.

Here's my problem is, I don't clear the whole day, number one, but my mind is really only fresh from around 9 to 1230. Great. That's your time. That's my time. So do you do that? Yes. That is the kind of routine they all do that I envy. But when I have to write then, I don't have an option. There's not me sitting down to write at 1 p.m. or 3 p.m. or 7 p.m. or 7 p.m. is just, it's just not a do I think that's the most common routine in the book. Okay.

Yeah. I have now taken to, I'm very fortunate because I'm an incredibly wealthy, successful television celebrity and we have a swimming pool, which Jeff Jones used to clean and was burned in the fire. I got all the tile replaced and repainted. You never think a swimming pool could get burned in a fire. That's one hell of a fire, my friend. It was a raging inferno.

But I make up. That is one dirty pool. Either it works. I wake up in the morning and I go in the pool first thing. And it is incredible. I mean, I literally, I don't have coffee. I don't have anything. Even if I have to pee, I'll just pee in the pool.

Who cares? It's my pool. It's me and Jeff. So I will literally, like, wake up and I'll do like a little prayer, a little meditation, my breath, like check in with my body. And then I'll just get up and I'll just go like in my underwear. And I'll just, and I swim for like 20 minutes. It's so good.

I'm just so excited about this thing that I found. And then I have a coffee and then I go do my meditation. Oh, then when do you write? By nine. Great. Yeah. It's been working out great. I would love that.

Well, let's continue forward then. So you want to be a writer, big book of Jewish humor, William Novak. What celebrities did he ghost write? Well, the one really exciting one for the 12-year-old boy in the 90s was Magic Johnson. Oh, man. That was amazing. I remember that book being on the shelves. That sold a bazillion copies.

Yeah, that was a big, great book. I mean, he had just been diagnosed with HIV, and he was coming into retirement. All of a sudden, I mean, the whole world was, eyes were on him. It was really, really well-written book, great book. And my dad let me meet him. Whoa. Let me sit in on an interview. He was flying to L.A. to interview him, and I came to his house.

Yeah. It was, like, unbelievable. You came up to, like, Magic's knee at that point, probably. For sure, yeah. What about, like, minor 70s celebrity? He was like, you can go play basketball. He had a house in the canyon. And there was a like a basketball hoop that faced the canyon.

And he was like, you can go out there and shoot hoops if you want. And I was so scared, I was going to throw it over the canyon. And he was like, oh, no, you'd only throw over the can't. You really couldn't play basketball at all. It's like, I'm going to be the guy. I'm not doing that. Yeah, the rest of my life, I'll be traumatized. I can tell Magic Johnson, I guess I really can't play basketball.

How much better would this conversation be if you had thrown a basketball into the cany? It would be my defining trauma. Yeah. But it would be such an unrelatable trauma. They'd be like, whoa, you were at Magic Johnson's house? Fell asleep on Edward Albee's shoulder, throw a basketball into the canyon of Magic Johnson's house on your tombstone. This is like what we were saying where part of the challenge is if you are given grace, if you are given gifts that you don't deserve, how do you treat it?

Do you beat yourself up? Do you feel guilty? Do you waste it? Do you complain? you know, or do you say, wow, what a gift. I don't deserve anything. I will try to earn as much as I can of it. I will try to give back as much as I can, but thank you. I have an opinion about this as well. Being grateful in saying thank you for the wonderful things you don't deserve and try to give them back is as important as perseverance in the hard times. I 100% agree. And I was

recently saying this on a panel I was on with Arthur Brooks, the writer and happiness guy. And it is in my mind we are trying to, we are striving to in a humanity is and individually we are, create a culture of giving, of reciprocity, of giving and taking and giving and taking. But you have to do the taking to allow it to be a gift. You can't just give and never receive. We want to create a culture where there's a swirl of giving and generosity and acceptance and gratitude for that acceptance and then giving it away again. Like that's where we're trying to head.

Yeah, we're on the opposite spiral, I think. We are right now. Do you hold out hope that things can change? Yeah, I do. And I think they will simply because every time society or art or any trend goes in one direction, people assume, oh my God, if it's like this now, imagine in 10 years, how low rise the jeans will be, how bleak the comedy landscape will be, how depraved our politics will be. It's going to keep getting worse.

And often you're not the only one thinking that. And then there's a reaction. Sure. And you realize like, oh, this is what everyone wanted, someone authentic or a different style of clothing or a different style of music or just when you're sick of, you know, AI beats, that's when a singer-songwriter is going to come out and be all the rage because they're so authentic. So often we are so pessimistic that things are going to go so far that way. That's when there's an opportunity to give the correction. They're like, oh my God, devil

wears Prada 2 is so bad. Devil War Prada's 3 is going to be amazing. Exactly, exactly. It's got to be. Exactly. It's got to come around. Yeah. But I was just reading an article about someone was writing about the things they hated from the 90s. And it actually was very funny. And one of the things were were the thong underwear that all the women used to wear the thong underwear. And they would peek out on the top of the jeans all the time. That 90s or 2000s? I feel like that was really 2000s. Okay, but it could have been.

Not my school. But now it's like granny, granny panties are big. And I think, I think that's great. Yeah, things keep. Yeah. Keep swinging. Reinventing. So people, a lot of people don't know, you went to high school with John Cresensky.

How weird is that? Crazy. He was like really popular, I imagine. He was a lot like Jim. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody knew him. High-fived him. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, and he played bad. He was on the basketball team. Yeah. Yeah. But you were a good little spark plug baseball player. I heard. Yeah. No, I'm serious. No, yes. I mean, not notably. There was someone, no, there was someone that was neither John nor you that was like, oh, BJ Novak was really good baseball player. Yeah. And that really surprised me. Thank you so much.

I had a good couple years. You know, I'm throwing out the first pitch at Fenway in a couple weeks. Oh, wow. Yeah. So it's funny because I did want to be a baseball parent when I was young. And if you imagine how it would mess with the kid's head. It's like, you know what? Here's, I'm going to tell you, especially if you didn't tell them why, because you didn't

know about celebrities and first pitch is like, you are going to throw a, you. going to throw in your life one pitch from the mound of Fenway Park, just one. Good luck. Like if I had heard that at 12, I'd be thinking about that. I'd be practicing my pitch. It's like you got a guest star role and you have one line. You know how that's harder. Right. It's hard. It's just overthinking. I'm like, I'm going to overthink this pitch is the one pitch of my whole life before and after. I'd be thinking about if I ever pitched on the mound of Fenway Park. Well, you talked about throwing the basketball over the ravine. I know. at Magic Johnson's.

And I threw out the first pitch at Dodger Stadium once. And I was, any advice? It's farther and harder than you think it is. Definitely get there early and practice. Oh, they let you do that? Yes. Oh. They let me come at like 5 p.m.

and like throw a bunch to the catcher. And it's like, oh, shit, it's a long way from that mound over the plate. You know, and I think he still had to reach for it. But I was like, because when you throw it in the dirt or over the catcher, head, it's humiliation for life. No, I know. That's the, it's like, it's a complicated opportunity. Yeah.

Because you can, it can be like throwing the basketball over the canyon. It's, it could traumatize you. Like you may, this may be the last time you saw me sane. Wow. Because if this pitch goes haywire. That could send you over the edge. Yeah, and be like, God, let me do it again. Guys are like, we're good.

Yeah. And you'd be institutionalized. Because I'll be dying for that second, yeah, I'd be dying for that. Like pulling your hair out. You're like, you're the last guy we're going to let do this again. You're chewing on your lip and blood is coming down your face. And I'd be like, the catcher fucked to me. He, he, like, okay, okay, Beach.

It's okay. I would come visit you and say, did you finish that play, the role in it for me? Because that's what I would do. Yeah, you know, what's in it for me. You'd actually be amazing in this role. But part of the premise is he's going to be young. And he's been unknown. It's like a meta.

aspect of the play, but you would be amazing for it. Can you, like, lose some fame real fast? What else comes up for you when you think back on your high school experience with John Kaczynski? How odd that is? I just think that I've thought this from the beginning, that if I woke up and this was all a dream, like, you were never on the show, The Office? Like, what do you? You thought John Krasinski was in it too? Like, that's the kind of thing that dream logic would kind of like, no, my friend from high school was kind of like the popular guy. He was that character like that. But I was also a writer, I think. You know, like, it would definitely, you could wake up any day. Do you ever think about you could wake up any day

and all of this would have been a dream? And that would make sense. That would be like, life is so weird and you wake up every morning after having such an elaborate and sane hallucination, that any morning you could wake up and this was all a dream. The fact that I went from this skinny, weird, big-headed, oddball theater actor who had done like 11 Shakespeare plays. To a fat fucking piece of shit. But the fact that we're having this conversation, you know, 12, 11, 12 years out from the office And then I'm like, and then I was like on this like sitcom is, is very dreamlike.

Yeah, absolutely. There's so much this dreamlike. Yeah. Yeah. And when other people are in your dream, so when I met you, I had just done the show punked. Right. And one of my, I don't know, the punks or whatever was Usher. That was a big one.

Okay. And I accused Usher. Was that the one with the Tiger in it? No, that was Bow Wow. Okay. The Usher one, his brother was in on it. He was arrested for shoplifting at the store, Lisa Frank's store in West Hollywood. And I was the owner or the manager of the store.

And I told him that we could let his brother go if he wrapped a jingle that was originally written for vanilla ice who turned us down. And the most devastating part of it was when he said, I'm not a rapper, which is true. He's not even a rapper. That to me is the most offensive, subtle thing. My character would just assume he's a rapper. when he's a singer. Anyway, so it was like, it was a tense episode. It was good. I saw him at a party last week and he came up to me. This usher, right? Icon usher and I have this formative memory

of like this thing I did with Usher. And he comes up to me with a big smile. It's like, hey, man, how are you? And I'm like, this is my chance. I say, hey, I don't know if you'll remember and he goes, I remember. No way. End of conversation. And that was it. Yeah, it was friendly. I was with a smile. Yeah. But it was so funny that like he yeah, he pieced. He remembers that face.

Yeah. He knows who that guy was. He had some vague awareness of that guy was still around out there somewhere. Maybe someday he'd meet him. What is the deal with Harvard and the, what's it called the crimson? No, the Harvard Lampoon and all the writers, Mike Schor, Greg Daniels, a thousand more comedy writers came through that system. What is it about the Harvard Lampoon training farm team system that preps you for Hollywood? I really sincerely am asking this question because it's pretty remarkable. There's the number of comedy writers.

Yeah, I wouldn't say it. Yes. I mean, the people that we know that are funniest, a very, very small. percentage of them are from that, but that definitely does outperform. I think it's that that is a group of people who are brutal to you when you are unfunny or even, or derivative to from a young age to be like bullied. It's a tough audience. Yeah. To be bullied for your comedy being subpar is not how most people experience college. So like that really makes you like it's a trial by fire. It's a trial by fire.

Yeah. Do you remember any pitches that you had at the Harvard Lampoon that got shot down and you, did you cry yourself to sleep? Yeah. Yeah. I didn't cry myself asleep. But, um, uh, oh, absolutely. I had pitches that I still remember just the, no, I can't.

Just the eye roll that like, maybe not even write the piece. Yeah, yeah. It was, it was a tough environment. Mike Scher, by the way, he was a, he's softened. He was a mean, mean, mean motherfucker. Was he really? I mean, he had that vibe. But that way, he was a persona.

Yeah. No, he actually, I'm kind of joking around. He, he was there before I was there, so I only met him when he was a grad, but he was so intimidating because he was, he was already a star writer and SNL. And, but now he's very, he's huggable. Kind. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a huggable writer.

That was not his persona then. Yeah. But Moes is a third thing altogether, you know. I wonder if he regrets playing Moes. Does he get recognized for playing Moes? but in his soul he wouldn't do it differently. That's my guess. Yeah.

Tell me if I'm wrong. One of the things that I was pleasantly surprised by when we had our soul boom conversation was you were all in on a spiritual revolution. There is a serious side to B.J. Novak that believes that we have become unmoored to some degree, culturally, and that there might be a spiritual, divine, God-inspired, faith-inspired, kind of cohesion that perhaps could guide us or bring us together. Yeah, I think we're suffering without it. I think there's something else besides economics out there.

There is a sense of purpose. There is a sense of soul. There is a sense of kindness. there are values that aren't measured by economic terms. And we used to live, I think, a society that cohabitated better with like, yeah, that's economics, that's politics, that's family, that's common decency. Community. Yeah, these are all values.

And I think because some of those are not easily measurable as numbers as we've become more of a digital society, you can't track the number of views or dollars that come through when someone is honest or kind or thoughtful. But it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's as valuable as ever been, but people start thinking, oh, I guess that stuff really doesn't matter because you get more clicks or you get more money. All of the economic terms are measurable and we've come to think that's all that matters. So I think there are, as much as there has ever been, there are these important human feelings

and needs and purposes that we've just come to think of as quaint, imaginary things. And I think it will have to come back because I think we're suffering with that. But isn't that part of consumerism and capitalism? Isn't it de facto a necessity of hyper-consumerism? that ultimately compassion, let's say, is devalued because it can't be monetized. Yes, if that's all you care about. And I think we've come to think that only the things you measure are the things that exist. And so the things you care about.

What I'm saying is like, doesn't that system need to be changed in a way? Doesn't capitalism because you started by saying, I don't think you'd change the economic system. But maybe we do. Maybe we do. Can we figure out, how would we have kind, consumerism and and compassionate capitalism. Couldn't there be a systemic change where kind of baked into the free market and Adam Smith and Milton Freeman, who was vehemently opposed

to any kind of like virtues to be put into capitalism, couldn't we shift the system somewhat? Yeah. I mean, the system has already shifted differently every year, you know, a little bit. Absolutely, we could shift the system. But I think there's also something about what are our values within the system and without. I think if you're just thinking, okay, well, how do we change the tax laws to encourage this or that? Absolutely. But you're also maybe missing the point of it shouldn't all be about money. And if we think of that as the only way to motivate behavior, by the way, maybe I'm being too

optimistic and that is the only way, in which case change the system as the main approach. But there is a lack of a sense of everything else, whether that's spirituality, religion, and I think answering everything in economics and measurable terms is very sad. Now it's attention economy. Exactly. And you can measure, right, you can measure a perfect example. You can measure the attention in terms of clicks and views, et cetera. You can't measure it in terms of the impact it has on a person, how that person feels,

whether they'll tell their kids about it excitedly, whether they'll dream about it. You can't measure that. So we act like that doesn't matter. Well, this got more clicks than that. So I think the measurable things has done a really poisonous thing. Where do you get your values from?

Do you feel like that's something that your mom and dad instilled into you? Do you think that your Jewish background helped instill some of those values? I learned it all on the beat farm. Okay, I want to thank you for that. Can I remind you of the fact that we had a beautiful improvisation in that episode? I'll never forget it.

That's the story that I tell over and over again. I do too on the losing end of it because I had written this whole great script and in the moment you wrote the best line of the episode. But your response was in the moment. Thank you so much. I kept character when you had a great improv. Thank you. By the way, yes, good for me.

But you're the story. I said to young Ryan as I was giving in the episode, the initial. as I'm giving him a tour through the beet farm. I said, and he's planting something, he's kneeling down, planting beet seeds. And I said, and I say, Ryan, and just as you have planted. Just as you have planted this seed in the ground,

I have planted my seed in you. I think it's I will plant my seed in you. Okay. I will plant my seed in you. As I remember. And you said so perfectly without skipping a beat, I don't think you know what you're saying. But I think that, yeah, thank you for including me in that great improv.

I always tell that part of the story. Thank you. And I tell, I tell it as well. But it is just, it's a good lesson collectively that it takes a lot of work in preparation to get to the level where you can throw it all away in a moment, you know? Like only because I had a really solid script, you had a really solid character could in the moment, like, let's throw it out, you know? And I think a lot of people assume it's one or the other.

but the preparation gives you the comfort level. But we always shot everything that was scripted. We always shot it. Because Greg insisted. Yes. So in that scene, we did shoot your scene as scripted. You have the energy like you're still afraid we're going to get in trouble at NBC. Greg.

Yeah. Because Greg would come out and be like, this great, those great, just we need one scripted at the network. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Because you can't get to the edit room and whatever Rain thought was funny is there instead of the story point. And it's like, but he's like, but he's great. didn't mention that there was a strike, you know, whatever.

Now we have to go reshoot. Right. So that was, that was the rule. What is the saddest you've ever been? When your house burned down? That's so good. When was the saddest you've ever been? I'm getting scared.

You're reaching too deep. I was like, all these options. You know, when the Terminator goes like, and he's all the options and he's like, fuck you, see you tomorrow. Yes, asshole or whatever. Like, I was going through. like, I could get really serious. How do I mock DJ?

You're like, how much time you have left to end? What can I call back from our discussion? Yeah. We've only been going for an hour in five minutes, by the way. A lot of these, if this was Pete Holmes, we'd be an hour three right now. Fucking Pete Holmes. Your rival spirituality podcast. I know.

That guy's good. He's a good competitor for you. He's coming in in like three weeks. Whoa. Yeah. That's like a crossover episodes. Yeah. We've done tons.

Okay. I love Pete Holmes. Pete Holmes, one of the comics that has opened for me. and blew me off the stage. Couldn't follow him. Too good. He's amazing. He's great. He is absolutely. His last special was so great. And he would veer from absurd to metaphysical. And he's so quick on his feet. He's, he is, he's astonishing. One of the things, honestly, I truly admire about you is you cannot predict what you're going to do next. You had an app called the List app that I

loved. Yeah, thanks. Absolutely. Thank you. You're great on it. I remember you wrote me. You're like, hey, can you post a little bit more on the list app? And I was like, BJ, I'm literally trying to cut social media out of my life. And you've created a social media app.

Yeah. But that was back when social media was fun. It was fun back. Remember, Twitter was fun for a few years. It was a place for people to be funny and share advice. Yeah. Yeah. And now people are combing through every tweet to just say.

No, now it's a rage machine. Yeah. But you have the book with no pictures, a children's book. Yeah. You did the movie Vengeance, the TV show, what's the program, what's it called? The premise, something like that is a P word. But, and there's a few other endeavors that you've undertaken, like stuff in Silicon Valley and investments and stuff like that. Like, your creativity is so wide ranging.

Can you just talk a little bit about the mind of B.J. Novak and why you just haven't stuck to, like, okay, what's my next sitcom TV show? No, I know, I know. Well, I get distracted. But oh and and and one more thing the amazing book of like you yeah would be or short stories on the audio book I just I have an idea and it doesn't seem to me that it needs to be I start with the idea so it's then what do I do with this idea not I need an idea for a TV show what would be a good TV show so if I think something would be good for this or that I tend to do it but you know I also do the traditional you know writing right a movie pitch a show sure and

Or if the phone rings, you want to act. Because right before we started shooting, you were telling me that you want to do a YouTube channel for young boys. Yeah, for kids. For kids. But I think especially more boy. There's a lot of stuff for girls, not girls, but like Ms. Rachel, like a lot of stuff that is.

Has a feminine quality. It has a little bit of a feminine tilt. And I think boys, like my book, the book with no pictures is especially good with boys. I think boys have a more rambunctious. innate sense of humor sometimes that should also be spoken to with sort of happiness and encouragement. So what are you thinking about this endeavor that you want to, do you have an idea what you're going to call it or what it's going to look like? I have a lot about it. Yeah. It's sort of taking shape. But anything you can share? I can't share anything yet. But this is the most

I've shared about it. But I am working on it and really enjoying what we've shot so far. Oh, that's great. Yeah, but it's really fun. But I do have a story about the book with no pictures. I was reading it to Boston Children's Hospital in Boston. And, you know, it's five-year-old, six-year-old, stuff like that. And then when I'm at the hospital, the woman there says there's a teenager who is a huge fan. Is it possible you could just stop by her room? So I say, yeah, sure, absolutely. So I stopped by and they tell me she's a big office fan. And I say, so, I hear you're a big fan of the office. She goes, yes. Well, I've never seen it. But I know, you from the memes.

Like, the memes are famous. Yeah. Like, you can love a show now just from like... But do you know what they're doing now? Beat Farm clip. They, now they're showing like real celebrities, not like fake celebrities, I guess, like real actual celebrities, blooper clips from the office and having them comment on it. I just someone sent me...

Who's a real celebrity? Michael B. Jordan. That count. From sinners. I know who Michael B. Jordan is. And they showed him. And the guy from Gladiator 2. What's the name?

Paul Muscal. They showed him, what? They showed him bloop and from Arshell? Yeah. Austin Butler Elvis. I thought you meant actual Elvis. I was like, what happened? What's going on?

And they showed them like, they showed this clip and they showed them bloopers from the office. And what did they do? And they laughed and commented on it and they had seen it before and they just talked about how funny it was. Well, that's great. That was weird. It's like put me in one of your fucking movies. idiots. I'll show you funny. Michael B. Jordan. It sounds like they're fans. I think make a movie, let's make a movie and they'll go see it is what I'm hearing. I've tried that. It hasn't worked.

It worked for James Gandalfini though. It worked for Gandalfini. Yeah. Pretty cool. Yeah. I made Code 3 came out a few months ago. I don't think Michael B. Jordan will show you heard you know, of course, how close it seems we were to getting Gandalfini on the office. Yeah, I heard about that. I was at that meeting. To replace Correll. Yeah. I think his agents were the ones said, don't do it, right?

Or was it him at the end of the day? I don't know, because you can also blame something on an agent. I don't know. Yeah. But he was sweet. He was shy and sweet and thoughtful. Yeah. And you know what he said that was really memorable?

Don't stop believing? No. Forget about it. I was there with Paul. Okay. Yeah. And Paul said, I think, thinking that often. and actors like playing against type, you know.

He said, we were thinking maybe you could be a white collar boss who comes in from the corporate side and, et cetera. And he processed it. And he said, my belief is that there's somebody that comes out of you at 3 a.m. when you're dead tired and it's 3 in the morning. And that's what you should be playing. And what comes out of me at 3 in the morning is a blue collar guy. That was really interesting.

Interesting. Way to look at acting. Wow. But you two together. That would have been something. That would have been great. And I think I must have mentioned and you of course know that we have the rocker in our show, you know, to entice. You should have, you probably didn't even say that.

I think I did. I knew he was a fan. One question we ask every guest is there's this crazy word soul in the title, Soul Boom. What does the word soul mean to you? The word soul to me is the part of you. is the part of you that will exist in the world after you've gone to the extent that other people have learned it or known it. So Elvis's soul is a lot of places.

Your parents' souls are in the people they affected. And it's in the work that you do. It's not your heart. It's not your legacy. it's the spirit of who you are that can be communicated, translated, taught, imitated, remembered, but it's that piece of you that is your spirit, your style, your soul in a way that can be transmitted. It's interesting that you place it in this world, which is great.

Interesting. I haven't heard. It is also come to think of it. Great, great observation. I will think about why I thought of it that way. I believe it is an infinite eternal thing, but I guess you're right. I'm thinking of it. It's reverberation is felt.

How do you know your soul on Earth? Yeah. Yeah. That's really cool. And as you were saying that, I was wondering like, how far in the future do you think that they'll be watching the office? If humanity continues, let's say, we may destroy ourselves in our planet. But the year 2200, the year 3,000, will they be?

be watching? Will they look back on the 20th century and the office will be one of those touch points? Is it still on Peacock or is it? I think peacock's going to be around for like 20, 2027. I think I think longer than we thought. I mean, we never thought it would be around so prevalently for this long. Yeah. I think there's got to be something timeless about its minimalism, I think. It's really just characters in a plane room, acting their hearts out, being funny and stupid. So I guess there's something minimalist that will age very well. You know what I think is the main thing that age is about the show, the ties. Everybody wore a tie to that office. That's true. I don't think they'd all wear a tie to a paper office that they do sales calls from every day. Yeah. You know,

I think a jacket and slacks is more than enough. Yeah. And a lot to ask these days. But everyone, the temp is in a tie. You know, everyone's in a tie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You wore shirt sleeves.

That was a little bold. That was, it was bold. And that was like, that's probably on your phone coat doll. I mean, that was outrageous. Yeah. Yeah. When you asked me to do this, I thought that's my best shot at having an hour conversation with rain. So I'll come in with a microphone.

I love to hear you. Well, let's have our next hour conversation just be over coffee. You'll never, you'll never do this. that. I will absolutely do that. You want me to bring the mics and the cameras? Could you? I love seeing you, man. BJ, I love you. And this has been really special. I loved you from day one. And back at you. And you know that. I always. Then I wavered around season five. Then I love you. Oh, not really. No waiver. Well, I loved being on this. Be sure to check out Steve Correll and Melinda and Melinda. Make sure to check out John Crosinski and a

Quiet plays. Five. Yeah. We're promoting other people's stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And make sure to check out Ellie Kemper as Cole's mom. Yeah, absolutely. All right. I was told I could keep the mug. The Soul Boom Podcast. Subscribe now on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever else you get your stupid podcasts.