Soul Boom - Casey Neistat: The Art of the Algorithm

Episode Date: July 17, 2025

Casey Neistat (YouTube creator, filmmaker, entrepreneur) joins Rainn Wilson to dive into the dangers of social media algorithms, the role of empathy in art, and how fatherhood reshaped Casey’s purpose. THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS! ⁠⁠⁠Get a 4-week trial, free postage, and a digital scale at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.stamps.com/soulboom⁠⁠⁠. Thanks to Stamps.com for sponsoring the show! Fetzer 👉⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.stamps.com/soulboom⁠⁠⁠ Bragg (20% OFF! CODE: SOULBOOM) 👉⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠https://www.bragg.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⏯️ SUBSCRIBE!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠👕 MERCH OUT NOW! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠📩 SUBSTACK!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  FOLLOW US! 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram: http://instagram.com/soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 👉 TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://tiktok.com/@soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  CONTACT US! Sponsor Soul Boom: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Work with Soul Boom: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Send Fan Creations, Questions, Comments: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Executive Produced by: Kartik Chainani Executive Produced by: Ford Bowers, Samah Tokmachi Companion Arts Production Supervisor: Mike O'Brien Theme Music by: Marcos Moscat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

An artist communicates through their art what they were feeling when they made it. The stronger I feel something, the better I am to communicate that. Can I ask you to go deeper than you've ever gone before in terms of what is the heart of that creative impulse? I appreciate you needling because this is good. Needling? Pushing me deeper. If you sit and you stare at Picasso's Guernica, you can, feel what Picasso was feeling when he was in Madrid as it was being bombed from the sky.

First time ever, aerial bombs were used in a civilian area, the death, the destruction, like the pain, the misery that he was feeling is communicated through that painting. When I'm telling stories through my little YouTube videos and there's something that's unique to my personal experience, I think that I'm able to do something that I think is good. I think you're giving a safe narrative. This podcast got way more like deep. That's called Soul Boom, motherfucker. What the fuck do you're doing for?

Hey there, it's me, Rain Wilson, and I want to dig into the human experience. I want to have conversations about a spiritual revolution. Let's get deep with our favorite thinkers, friends, and entertainers about life, meaning, and idiocy. Welcome to the Soul Boom podcast. So the reason I really wanted you to be on Soul Boom is, and I truly truly, mean this, you're one of my creative heroes of all time. Like the amount of beauty and truth and innovation that you have put out in the world over the last, let's say, 15 years is, is staggering and has inspired millions and millions of people. I'm not saying this to kiss your butt. The reason

I'm saying this is for me, and, you know, from my point of view as, you know, a soul boomer, is that creativity to me is a spiritual impulse. It is an emulation of the divine spirit that courses through all things. When we took a vacation once to New Mexico and it was called a bear's ears monument or bees knees monument or something like that and there's like all these rocks and you walk around and this guy, this guide took us to these ancient cliff dwelling cliff dwellings and artwork. And he had this whole, he was native guy

and he had this whole history of like these incredible drawings. And it was like, it was obviously people migrating and it was obviously hunting animals. And they were beautiful. And it was, and then the view from up where they were was just staggering. You could see like 150 miles.

you know, in every direction. And I just was filled with like, holy shit, humanity. Like, as long as we've been around, we've needed to and wanted to express things through figures, through metaphor. In this case, that's their version of vlogging, is, you know, is cave paintings. His cave paintings.

And that, to me, that creative impulse has a divine element. When I started Soul Pancake, I had a conversation with Ed Helms on the side of the office. And he's like, so what's this SoulPancake, digital media channel that you're starting and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, well, we want to fuse creativity and spirituality. And he was like, aren't they kind of mutually exclusive? And I think that's a common idea.

I don't think Ed would say the same thing right now. But this, but in actuality, it's the same impulse. It's the impulse for transcendence. It's the impulse to connect, to express. to strive, but what is the heart of that creative impulse? Like, can I ask you to go deeper than you've ever gone before in terms of what it is to create something where that impulse comes from and why? I can try.

Thank you for the kind words. It means a lot. It always does. But to answer your question, okay, I learned this idea from my brother Van. I don't know if this was his. or he learned it from someone else, but I'm going to credit him with this, because to me this is the best distillation

of art, the creative process, which is that an artist communicates through their art what they were feeling when they made it. So if you think of a song, for me it's like, I mean, I've got 100 of them, but you think of like Pink Pony Club,

which is all we listen to in my house. You don't even know that that song is. Unreal, unreal. You obviously don't have a six-year-old daughter. Nothing compares to you, not Prince, Shanae O'Connor. Okay. You don't know that song? I do.

Of course I do. Okay. You listen to that song with headphones on. You feel the emotion. She's, she's, her, the emotion of breaking up with someone, of ending a relationship is communicated through this artwork that is a four and a half minute song that Chenay O'Connor is singing in such a profound way that when I'm listening to it, 30 years, 35 years after it was recorded, I can feel the exact emotions

that she had when she wrote that song. If you sit and you stare at Picasso's Guernica, my favorite painting, if you stare at it long enough, you can feel what Picasso was feeling when he was in Madrid as it was being bombed from the sky. First time ever, aerial bombs were used in a civilian area and the devastation that he was winning, the death, the destruction,

like the pain, the misery, that he was feeling is communicated through that painting. And I think, you know, with film, film can do this uniquely because it touches on so many of the senses, your eyes, your ears. Film has that power.

And for me, what I do is I find that when I'm telling stories through my little YouTube videos and there's something that's unique to my personal experience, I think that I'm able to do something that I think is good. I think I look at that and I'm like, this is good work. When I do stuff like, you know, I made a documentary three or four years ago, I've produced feature films back in the day. I've made feature films back in the day. I think I'm an average to maybe at best slightly above average filmmaker.

Filmmaker, yeah, straight up filmmaker. Maybe even more acutely. I bet you're better than that, but go ahead. I get what you're saying. More acutely, like I used to make a living directing television commercials. And the irony was agencies and brands would see my videos, YouTube videos or the work I was doing for the New York Times at the time. And they'd be like, we want that guy.

And then they would hand me a script. They would hand me a storyboard. And I would have to execute their vision. Again, at best, slightly above average. In my opinion, mediocre work. And it wasn't until Nike was like, yeah, sure, you can take this meaningless, tiny little budget and go make something on your own that we have no input on that I then made Make It Count, which completely changed my relationship with in advertising. That was a video that was purely me trying to communicate a feeling that I was uniquely feeling through a video. So for me, that's what the creative process is.

And I think that the stronger I feel something, the better I am to communicate that. It's why, like, maybe, you know, the favorite video that I've made in a long, long time was last year. And I made another one this year that I'm super proud of. It's great. But last year I made a video about what it means to, like, break three hours in a marathon. The video has nothing to do with running. The video has to do with the fact that, like, you know, I had this pursuit. My leg was broken and rebuilt out of metal.

The doctor said, you'd never run again. and I was like, I'm going to break three hours in a marathon. And then it took me 17 years in 25 attempts to get there. And the reason why, like, I love that movie so much is because for probably 21 of those 24 attempts at breaking three hours in a marathon, from miles 16 to mile 22, I was fantasizing in my brain that I get to make the movie.

I get to tell this story. And then I get to mile 22 and be like, you didn't do it. No. And then I was less upset about not running the time as I was that I don't get to make this movie. Like I was devastated. And when I finally did it, I sat down and I was like, now I get to do that. And for me, the movie, that's why the movie has nothing to do with running.

It has to do with this idea, like taking on some asinine, nonsensical, only important to you sort of ambition in life. And not stopping until it's achieved at all costs. And it was like, okay, now I get to communicate that. And the movie has as much of a focus on tap dancing, literally, as it does on running. Like, the movie has almost nothing to do with the actual sport of running. It is just about that journey, a journey that I know so well. Because I thought it was something that I would, you know, a journey that would take me 12 or 18 months, and it took me 17 years of my life.

So it's really more of a story about human endeavor. Sure. And persistence. Yeah, I mean, that's good. And longing than ending a marathon. why because it's fucking pointless. Like it, you know, my favorite part about breaking three hours in a marathon, like I did 257 in this year's New York City Marathon and people like, God, that's so

fast. And I'm like, I came in 5,000th place. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, this is not, this isn't even like a good old man time. Like this is a, it's an achievement. I couldn't be more proud of it. It's fast.

But like, take it easy, guys. Like Olympic marathoners who had an hour faster than me. Yeah. But for me, it meant so much. Yeah. So you ask what that spiritual, creative thing is. And it's anytime I'm able to feel something, we all feel things all the time. And it might not be an emotion, a lot more often than not, it's an idea.

Well, let's go into that because I do think, I think it cheapens art to say, hey, you have a feeling and then you express it. I think that happens sometimes. I think that Sheney O'Connor got that Prince song. She'd been heartbroken, obviously, has one of the greatest voices in the history of rock and roll and puts it all, lays it all out there. And that's a great example. But, you know, I think about like Reckoner off of In Rainbows by Radiohead. And it's not necessarily about Tom York's breakup or how he was feeling right then. It like is an encapsulation of like this musical kaleidoscope that Radiohead was a good. exploring at the time that is, it's evocative, it's moving. I still don't know exactly what it's about, but when I listen to it, it kind of puts me at a trance state, you know, and then I think about great abstract paintings, and I think about,

you know, even great television shows that, like, you know, I'm watching severance right now. It's such a beautiful show. It's such a strange, beautiful show that is an interesting commentary on the modern world, but you can't put your finger on what it is. It's not saying, oh, corporate America sucks. It's not an obvious moralistic take. It just the alienation of the modern world is encapsulated so beautifully in it. I don't even know if that's a feeling that came from the showrunner or from Ben Stiller or the creators of the show.

Isn't there something? Isn't there? And I keep going for this like this kind of leap towards transcendence, towards trying to sum up the mystery, majesty, loneliness. and flailings of the human condition that's coming out through making art? Yes, for sure. Your question, though, was what was mine?

Yeah. And not specifically, like that more narrow definition is what it is for me. I think I'm more generic. So everything you create comes from a feeling you're having that you want to express. A feeling or idea. Everything I create that's good.

A feeling an idea is very different. I think they're the same in the, they're the same when defined as it is a human, universal thing, whether that's an emotion, a feeling, or an idea. Whether it comes from here, it comes from here. And they're both intangible. And the art, the creative process,

is taking that intangible from here, that tangible from here, and you turn it into something that is now tangible. It is now a song that people can listen. It is now a painting that people can look at. It's now a YouTube video that people can watch. And that's uniquely what it is for. for me. I think that like Mr. Beast's videos are genuinely creative. But I would, I do not think

that anyone on Jimmy's team would define their creative process anywhere near the same realm as my own. Sure. And I don't think that invalidates theirs. I think it's different. Yeah, I don't, but I don't think they make art at the same time. They make entertainment and some of it is hysterical and, and, and, and ends up being kind of revelatory. But, you know, Yes, but I think in the most reductive terms, it's still a creative manifestation. Like, they're creating something that didn't once exist, and now it does exist. My North Star is an idea, a concept, a feeling. Their North Star might just simply be entertainment.

Like, how do we make something? How can we buy an island? Yeah. How can we make 100 people stand in a red circle to see you can stand here the longest? It's apples to oranges, but at the end of the day, there's a common thread in that you're taking something that doesn't exist. And at the end, you have something that does it. exist and the value that it brings to the world is very different. But that process of taking nothing and turning into something, I think has a tremendous amount of creative validity.

So part of the discussions we had at Soul Pancake and now we're having a little bit here at Soul Boom, which is a little bit more spiritually minded and a little bit less entertainment based is, are we part of the problem? Because for all the inspiring content you can put out on one of these platforms, you're a slave to the algorithm. And I know like when a lot of young people want to avoid life and avoid connection, they turn to your videos or to much lesser extent my videos and they're thumbing through and the world goes away. They're isolating. The mental health epidemic has been linked to social media. in so many different ways.

So we're trying to put out positive content into the world onto platforms that in and of themselves, in their very essence, are damaging to the human brain and psyche and damaging to human community. Are we part of the problem? Because sometimes I wonder if it's worth it. I mean, are you part of the problem,

or are you a victim of the problem, I think is maybe a... Okay. is a perspective on it. But I think, like, if you zoom all the way out, you know, you go all the way back to, like, when audio was first put on to discs, to records, there's no doubt that there are live musicians that fought back against that. Like, you're destroying the purity of music.

Like, you have to be in front of the musician to hear it. Yeah, I wonder what the debate was with radio. Sure. You know, when a big band was put out on radio. Did Glenn Miller be like, wait a minute, you're taking people away from the, a live experience, you know, and it's being piped into their living rooms. And then, you know, motion pictures come out, and it's like, you know, there's a argument there that it's, you know, this is capturing a version of humanity that's not, I don't know what the

argument was in 1910 when movies started to be shown and movie real started to be shown. And then the talkie comes out and takes over, you know, silent films. And it's like, I'm sure there's an argument there. TV comes out. It keeps going when we were kids growing up in the 80s, 70s, where, You had cable. It was like our parents called it the idiot box. TV is going to make you dumb.

Don't watch it. And there's a generation of kids like me in the late 70s through the 80s through the early 90s of being raised by television. These latchkey kids coming home after school. The TV just goes on. Yeah. And it's Gilligan Island reruns, you know, for hours or what has you.

I was a huge fan of Rahide on Nick at night. But I think that all of that, like you can attribute much of that, process, that evolution of media. And the cynicism to it is, I see it more as sort of a misguided kind of neoludite perspective. Like I think it was being against innovation for the sake of being against innovation. I think that it did make art better. I think it did do amazing things.

I think that, you know, when Jaws came out in 79 and Spielberg invented the blockbuster, that it yielded some, you know, a new perspective on movies. things got really interesting. I appreciate all of it. But I do think the entire thing crashed into a brick wall with the advent of social media and algorithms. You know, there's an argument that says that like, well, you know, it happens sooner once they figured out a formula in Hollywood to make money off of movies and capitalism

and art were budding heads. But I think that there's still a distinction between that. That is a tiny feather being put on a pile. And I think that social media. is an anvil being put on the creative process. And it comes down to not the creative work that's being put out. And that means not your great podcasts, not my YouTube videos, not Mr. Beast's YouTube videos,

not Charlie DeMilio dancing in front of her phone for TikTok videos. That is not the issue. The issue is the algorithms or the motives, plainly the motives of these platforms. And their motives are clear. and I understand you. Keep you on the platform. Yeah, I mean, we are not the customer on those platforms.

We're the product. So the more we're on them, the more that they're able to sell their product, which is our eyes and our attention. On Game Day, pain can hit hard and fast, like the headache you get when your favorite team and your fantasy team both lose. When pain comes to play, call an audible with Advil plus acetaminopin and get long-lasting dual-action pain relief for up to eight hours. Tackle your tough pain too way.

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and a gigantic shout out to one of our sponsors, the Fetzer Institute. In an era where mental health is a growing concern, Fetzer's insights into the role of spirituality and building resilience isn't just timely,

it's essential. They offer hope for what so many of us are seeking. Thank you for your support. Fetzer, visit them at Fetzer.org. But YouTube is that, is a social media platform? YouTube is absolutely a part of this. And this is why we were talking earlier.

I have a very positive, whimsical, purest take on YouTube, which is that it is the most pure form of video distribution because there's nothing between the creator and the audience. And I think it's a very virtuistic take on it. But I think the cynical take on it is everything else I'm talking about right now, which is this sort of attention hacking machine that their only ambition is to keep you on there as long as possible.

I still think that in the spectrum of what we have right now, YouTube is probably the best. Yeah, very great. And that YouTube is still mostly what I define as like lean back viewing. Whether you're on your phone or it's YouTube on your television, you mostly click play and lean back. And YouTube shorts, which is still the same company,

but YouTube shorts, TikTok, Instagram Reels, that is lean forward. And it has very little to do with the creativity of the content. And it has much more to do with how long can you keep someone's eyeballs stuck on this device. And it does cause real harm because the truth is, you know, someone will always pick up us weekly before they'll pick up the Bible. I'm not a religious guy. But you get what I'm saying.

It's much easier to look at pictures of celebrity and read, gossip than it is to read something that perhaps asks more of you. It's much easier to stare at a car accident than it is to look at a painting or something. And I don't fault any human for that. I think that's human nature. The difference is these platforms exploit that to a degree that now we're seeing it manifests as like this really vapid crisis when it comes to mental health and the way that it's affecting, especially young women with body image issues.

It's hand in politics. We saw play out really aggressively this year, this election cycle. And misinformation can just get thrown around like. Yeah, and it's, it's, look. People don't seem to, such an odd as this kind of sidebar. One thing I was just thinking about this morning and was reading about a lot of misinformation going around about USAID being shut down. And, but people don't investigate.

It's so odd, people don't investigate. They just believe what's being put in front of them. And if they say, Oh, USAID, money is being spent on sending Ben Stiller to the Ukraine. They'll retweet it, repost it, talk about it. But it's like, it didn't happen. It's just a lie. But it was a front page, you know, news cycle.

And, you know, anyway, that's... Yeah, I think misinformation is, is nothing new. I mean, War of the Worlds was 1930. You know, it was... And yellow journalism and heard... You and I grew up with a weekly World News, boy takes over again. Like, misinformation is nothing new.

And I, I, I, but now you have tools to be able to investigate if those things are true. And you can investigate if they're true or not in seconds. And I think, and people don't do it. That's, that's, that's, that's a net positive. The fact that people don't do it is obviously terrifying. But, you know, I'm, I lean towards free speech absolutism. I think the danger is not in, in just looking at the sheer volume of, of bullshit being

shared, but isn't the fact that, again, these. platforms are able to exploit that inaccurate information because it will keep you on their platforms longer. It keeps you outraged. Yeah. And clicking. Again, if you're angry, you're going to stay on much longer than if something makes you feel good and you smile, you put your phone away.

But if you're pissed off, you just keep scrolling, keep scrolling. So, you know, misinformation is a huge problem. It always has been. It's more ubiquitous than ever because of platforms. But I zero in on. If you're looking at someone to point a finger out, something. That's correct, the profit motive. And it's the same thing with newspapers in the late 19th century,

in early 20th century, is a profit motive to, you know, to be able to launch conspiracies about. And look, to a similar degree, I think much of the vilification of, without arguing its validity, but much of the vilification of the more mainstream traditional news outlets, I think that that vilification, even though it's not always defined as this, I define it as this. These are organizations that at the end of the day, they still have to make money. The New York Times still has to sell papers.

The CNN, CNN still has to get ratings. So, like, you know, what are people going to watch? And outrage is always more engaging than, you know, Walter Cronkite-level straight-talking news. And I think that like, you know, this sounds like a very harsh take on blaming capitalism for all of it. But at the end of the day, it is, you know, financial motives when they're attached to these sorts of, you know, technological innovations. Like, my feeble, smooth monkey brain cannot compete with whatever power is the TikTok algorithm. I have delete TikToks off my phone. Oh, I deleted all social media off my phone.

I even had to take the YouTube app off my phone and I'll watch YouTube. on Safari, because the app is so, it makes it so easy to watch the next video that I like to make it harder to watch the next video. A buddy of mine said delete, and I like this, I haven't done this, but I like this. He says, delete all the social media apps off your phone, but use the browser because, you know, whether it's Facebook, TikTok, or Instagram, when you're looking at it on the browser on your phone, it's not as tuned. Yeah, exactly.

That's interesting. But the point is right now we're discussing ways of keeping ourselves. You started your own social media network that you sold for a handsome profit. Beam, tell us about that. Remind me what it was. I can't really remember. I remember when you were doing it at the time. But part two of that question is like, if you were going to design one now, I'm like, here's $100 million.

Casey, you get to design some kind of interactive social media, filmmaking, storytelling, kind of app. What would that look like? Beam, what my app was, it was a video sharing app, and this was 2015, 2016, when like Instagram filters were the rage. If you go to somebody's Instagram account,

anybody, pick any friend. And you scroll all the way to the bottom. Those first two years is like so heavily filtered and everything's like, what were you thinking? But at the time, it was the first time ever you could put filters on stuff. And it was so exciting. And you know, I built an app that was

sort of a contrarian take on that. which was a video sharing app where there was no way to alter the images that you captured. So rather than filming, we use the proximity sensor on your device. So you could hold it to your shirt, you could put your thumb over it, but the minute you start recording, the screen goes black. So therefore, you know, Beam, B-E, came from, we initially called it B-Me, because we wanted to show the world what it was like to see the world from your perspective.

And that was sort of the altruistic ambition behind it is that like, ultimately empathy, this was the theory. We obviously didn't realize this that well. But the theory was that by sharing the world's perspectives that were honest and true, it would promote a greater degree of empathy. And that was the core premise of the product. And I think we built a great product, but we launched, like, we started building and halfway through building,

Snapchat stories came out. And now stories are ubiquitous. They're across all apps. Sure. But if you remember what Snapchat stories, where it was so good. It was like we are working our asses off to build the best, to build the best like saddle to put on a horse. And then Snapchat comes out with the car. Right. And I was like, man, their product is way better. Yeah. And so, you know, we had a lot of success, enough success

to have a meaningful acquisition and great outcome and all of that. But, you know, we never got to Snapchat, Twitter, Instagram level success. So 2025, what do you, any ideas? Run. Run. I move to that cave and start painting more pictures of, of, you know, jumping. Antelope. Sure. I just think we are.

It's too far gone at this point. Is there any way to bring? That's a negative take on it. Is there any way to bring, you know, this little microcomputer and this kind of expression? I view it as kind of like, I rely so much on my notes app. Like anytime I have an idea for something I want to write or something, I put it in there, and then I forget about it. And then I go back to the notes app and I'm like, oh my God, that's a great idea. I'm so glad I did that.

It's an extension of our brains, really. It's an extension of our eyes. It's an extension of our research. Oh, my God, look at all these different. Kill those medications. Is there any way to take this tool, the most powerful tool in the history of humanity, and make it beautiful, important, true and help move humanity forward? The short answer, my short answer is yes.

I think that, call me naive or optimistic, I'm guilty of both of those things, but I think that we've sort of reached a point now where it's like we know the issues that these things present. And I'd like to think that events, they're going to start to take a turn. We're seeing that innovation with AI,

and that's not in any of the ways it's currently being implemented. I think AI on phones right now is total nonsense. The Apple Gen Moji campaign, I look at it all the time, the city's billboards, and I'm like, what is this? What are you trying to sell me? No one cares. But I think in time, like a greater integration of AI will really have a big impact on how we use our phones.

And like the Notes app is my favorite app because it's where I jot down all the night. When I run in the morning, I either stop and I start going like this or I try to use voice to text. That's just tough because when I get home, I have to be like, what is this? Hell, yeah. Yeah, because every third word is something else. But that's my favorite app. So, like... You would think, sidebar, you would think you can make chat cheap T and deep C

and all these things that you could do better voice to text. You would think that. Right now in the comment section of this video are 50 people being like, that exists, use this app. It does, and I'm sure it's great. But like, what they, what these people fail to acknowledge here is that I'm 43, we're old men. and I don't know how to do new things. I know how to open the Notes app.

I don't want to take the 35 seconds it's going to take me to install this app to make it better. And then they're going to want you to log in and create an account. And I'm going to save the password somewhere. Yeah, yeah. But no, all this just to say is that, like,

I think we're at a dark place right now with social media and with what these devices represent in our lives. And because I'm an optimist, often irrationally optimistic, that we've reached an inflection point, a bottom. And I think that they will become much more useful and more practical ways.

I mean, I think they've done a good job of connecting us. That connection has just been exploited in yucky ways. But I think that there's a lot of value there. That is the most generalist, ambiguous response I could possibly give you. But I am optimistic. It's still how you make your living, right? Among other things.

You used to put out content every day. Then it was like every week. Then it was every two weeks. Now I've noticed that it's every two months or something like that. So what's your deal? I am just overwhelmed with laziness is what it is right now. Like my- Did you mister anti-lacy, creative guy?

That's half of your videos. I have to tell you. Be lazy. Get up at 5.30 and make shit. The pendulum swings hard in my world. I have your honesty. I was helping my brother, Van, yesterday, write a proposal. And he's on, like, the third draft.

And he sends it to me, and he's just like, hey, can you just read this through and let me know what you think. He's like, I'm sure you're busy doing other things. And as he's sending that to me, like, I'm sitting in my office watching movies, eating snacks. Like, I was eating peanut butter emin'ams. And I'm like, I am busy, but I don't know how to pause my movie. No, the truth is, like, right now I'm doing some really interesting stuff. None of it's public facing, but it's on the tech side. it's things that I find extremely engaging.

You know, after I sold my company in 2017, it was the first time I had money. So I started investing in a number of companies and individuals that I found compelling. And that is sort of manifested into now I have relationships with companies that I work with in various capacities. I love doing it.

It's incredibly meaningful for me. You turned into a tech bro. A little bit, a little bit. But I love it. But none of it's public facing. it does consume a lot of my brain space. Like today I have a video that I would love to go finish, but instead I'm going to go back to my office and finish notes

on a project that I'm working on that, again, is none of its external facing. So a lot of my time right now is taken up by things that are certainly creative, but they're not. Any of those projects help make the world a better place? They all do. Otherwise, yeah, I think they all do. Well, this is important.

That's the only thing that gets me excited. You said they all do, otherwise I wouldn't be a part of them. what is it about you that feels like, and I really sincerely mean this. It may seem like an obvious question to you, but 99% of entrepreneurs don't really give a shit about the outcome of their entrepreneurship. They may say they do.

They just want to be successful and make money, and they want to be creative and engage with people and launch something and be a part of something and stuff like that. But that's another thing I've admired. about you, Grandpa Digital, is you have consistently tried to, with everything you do, to like, how do we move humanity forward? Where does that come from? It's a luxury. Why not just make a sports betting app that's more effective and helps use AI and makes people money and makes you a lot

of money? This perspective is a luxury. If I was broke right now and couldn't afford to feed my children. I don't buy that. You were broke and you were making vlogging content that was positive, vulnerable, and artistic, and you weren't doing it for money. You did it because you loved it. And I know that for a fact. So I don't buy it. I think that's bullshit. You're right. My joke that I was going to say is I would make, if I was broke, I'd make movies for Halliburton. But the reality was I remember being really broke and saying no to making a pharmaceutical commercial. Yeah. A riddling commercial. God, the budget was so, our fee was like 35,000 bucks. And I said no.

Because they gave me riddling when I was a kid. It fucked me up. Took away. It's sapped my... I teach their own and I think that all these things play a role in the world. Hey, riddle-in users. Yeah, I'm not... Enjoy it if it works for you.

Yeah, for me it didn't. And I have a very negative take on it from my own perspective. But so I don't know where it comes from. But I will tell you, because I do believe this. And I appreciate... You don't know where it comes from? What I was going to say before when you interjected and you're right, And interrupted.

Yeah, you were calling me on something that I think is fair. But when I say luxury, what I mean is it's like, you know, being really broke and really broke by U.S. definition to any of your international audience. You know, we're the most privileged people. Sure. Really broke. Like, I was on, you know, I received welfare checks. And I got free milk and diapers for my baby. And I lived in like a mobile home.

We had heat. I had TV. you know, like I didn't have a car, but like I figured out how to get to work every day. Like, it was fine. We had a grocery budget of 50 bucks a week. Like, I was totally fine. That's what broke in the sky. But regardless, by U.S. standards, I was pretty bottom of the food chain broke.

And when you don't have that and you deal with the shame of that, the shame that I experience, which is, you know, being a teenager with a kid that, you know, I'm making minimum wage and the side eye, whether it was real or not from everyone that I knew, that manifested in shame. I fantasized about being really, really rich. I fantasized about that. Like, that was in the crosshairs. I will be so rich someday.

Yep. And what's interesting... A lot of folks do, a lot of young folks do. Yeah, yeah. And I value that I had those experiences because they gave me the drive. But what was interesting is the minute I got to a place where I didn't have to worry about paying this month's rent,

or food, money just stop being an ambition. And it's still there. Like, my only financial ambition now in life is security. Like, I don't, if I stopped earning today, I wouldn't last very long because for myriad reasons. But, like, I'm not a set for life guy. I, you know, I don't, I don't have a hundred million dollars. I'm not there.

I've done incredibly well. But the point is, like, the minute I crossed a threshold where I really felt a level of financial security. and I have that now, a degree of financial security. It enabled me to just sort of exhale and be like, what do I really want to do? And I think this is one of the virtues of money, of financial freedom that is often overlooked because we look at Bezos's new yacht, which is sweet. And we see the Lambos with the doors that go like that, dope.

And that's what we think sort of money is. but what money meant for me was just like the minute I got to that place, I was able to exhale and be like, no, what do I really want to do? In some days, that means sitting in my office doing nothing, watching movies. But mostly it means like what actually gets me excited. And it's not making money that makes me excited anymore. It is being able to do things that matter. Again, I'm going to push back on your narrative.

I think you're giving a safe narrative, Casey. I think that because I was watching your stuff when you were broke. And like you said, you could have done the Ritalin commercial. You could have made commercials for Halliburton. And you didn't. Now, you did take a gig with the New York Times and you took a gig with CNN and you, you know, you sold your company and whatnot and you were always an entrepreneur. And that's great.

But what I'm trying to get at is like, I don't believe you that when you say, like you got to a certain level of financial comfort. And then you were like, well, what really turns me on and I'm going to do that? You were always doing what really turned you on and doing that, which is storytelling and it's entrepreneurship. And what I'm trying to get at is like, what is it about you? Because I'm fascinated by this. And I want young people to learn from it.

I want to learn from it. What is it about that impulse that you have, like, whatever it is that I do, I want to put out good in the world. I want to put out emotion in the world. I want to connect people. I want to make, whether it's a video product for a phone or whether it's a YouTube vlog, I want to move the ball down the field for humanity.

What is, what's that spark? Where does that come from? Because it doesn't, I don't believe you that it comes from a certain measure of like financial comfort. Is you always doing it? No, it's fair. I'm not, what I said is truthful, but I think you're approaching.

from a different perspective that I think is fair. And I appreciate you needling because this is good. Needling? You're pushing me deeper than needlebox. I guess it's also, I want to be clear. I want to be clear, like, there's no part of it, or at least no conscious part of it, or at least a part that I'm willing to admit to her own,

that's like, I'll sit here and be like, I just want to make the world a better place. I think that the reason why I do things are mostly, if not entirely, at least how I feel, they're self-serving. I do them because it makes me feel good. And if because of that, it makes the world a better place, great. But like when I take brand deals with a company that I don't necessarily believe, it makes me feel like shit.

When I take brand deals with a company that I love, like, you know, Brooks running shoes was the last brand deal I did. And when they finally called, I was like, I've been wearing you shoes for 50. I've been waiting for this phone call for 15 years. This episode sponsor. I felt so honored. And does that make the world a better place? I don't think so.

But like I felt honored. It was a selfish decision. So I look around at a lot of my peers, especially in social media. And peers might be a bit of a reach. But you see a tremendous amount of what I would define as sort of exploitive content. Content that gets its sensationalist value by in some way, you know, taking someone else down.

That is ubiquitous across YouTube in particular. Like there's so much, and I look at that, and that makes me feel like shit. It makes me feel bad. And when I see it, I want to make videos that make me feel good. And this is, I'm being simplistic, but I'm also being very, very literal here. Like, this is truthful.

So I look at the breadth of companies that I could potentially invest in or be a part of. And I, you know, the ones that make me feel good, ones that are interesting to me, are the ones that I think are doing things that move the world forward in a way that's, that's positive. A couple of years ago, I stayed at this remote Montana cabin with some friends, gorgeous views, total silence, the whole get back to nature thing. And on the second night, we hear this

low growl outside. My heart stops. I think, oh, great, I'm about to get eaten by a bear. This is how it ends. Spoiler, it was a raccoon. A very large raccoon. But in that moment of terror, I realized what was even more terrifying is how many people leave their homes just sitting there empty when they travel when they could be hosting an Airbnb. I mean, you're going on trips anyway. Why not let your place work for you while you're gone? It's extra income with zero effort. So you can go off into the woods, have a spiritual awakening, or at least a near raccoon encounter, and come home to a little extra cash in your pocket. Your home might be worth more than you think, find out how much at Airbnb.com slash host.

So that's, you have an internal barometer that's kind of like, I've done some stuff for some shitty companies. It didn't feel good. And I have now the luxury to be able to do stuff for, for companies, for brands, for ideas, for tech startups, for storytelling that makes me feel good and makes the world a better place. But why is it? More of an emphasis on makes me feel good.

Like, I do want the world to be a better place. but like there are real altruists out there. There are people out there who have these benevolent missions in the world. And I hope someday to get to that place. But if I told you like that is my driving motivation right now, I would be lying to you. It's a part of it.

I do want the world to be a better place. I donate money to charities that I think are doing good things. I give money directly to people that I see who are suffering. I try my best in this world. But that is not my main mission yet. That's an ultimate goal for me. I'm going to keep circling around this because I think this is really important for young people to hear because I think a lot of young people, you know, like if I, if I post something about doing social good on like Instagram, half the comments are like, this is bullshit. You're not really doing it good.

You're not really doing this for altruism. This is like, what do they call that moral posing, you know? Virtue signaling. Your virtue signaling. You don't care about the climate. You just want people to like you. more or whatever because I do a lot of climate stuff. And and, and,

but I think it's important for young people to hear like that you don't have to be Mother Teresa, you know, you don't have to be, you don't have to have some kind of like, you know, halo around you and some, uh, to, to, to seek to do altruism in the world. You can, in your own small way, follow that, that little small, still voice, that inner compass, says, this feels good, this feels right, it's an expression of me, and maybe it's moving the ball down the field a little bit. Yeah, I think that so much of what we see today, and I'm choosing my words carefully, so I don't want to point this at any one person or one, in any one place, but like, I think so much of what we see today that's the most upsetting thing to me is a generation

that is much more concerned with being perceived as doing good instead of just fucking doing good. You don't have Instagram on your phone because you're a hero. But like, you know, when I go through my Instagram feed and I have those, you know, the people that I follow and all they post is about bad things that are going on or here's what you should do or here's a good way to fix it, that is all they post.

And I know these people like, no, they live there. privileged lives and they do this repost and like, did my job. Fuck yeah, I'm making the world a better place today. And I call bullshit on all of that. I call bullshit on that. And I think that like if you want to make the world a better place, then make the world a better place. You're not going to accomplish that by walking around screaming with a loudspeaker.

I'm here to make the world a better place. And I can give you a little. But don't I have a little, don't I personally have a little bit of a responsibility in that I'm a public figure because I'm known as Dwight and I've got millions of Instagram followers and I can talk about climate, let's say. And this is where this is a difficult thing to talk about because... Do I have a certain responsibility? Do you have a certain responsibility?

Yeah. And look, I post those things. I was posting yesterday about how, you know, hateful it is the stuff that Kanye West is posting. Yeah. And I think this is where it gets difficult because when I give that cynical perspective on categorizing a whole generation and saying they just want to be perceived as doing good. you know, that's a pretty hot way of,

it's a pretty judgmental way of characterizing it. And I think the more literal, nuanced way is much less sensational in its characterization. But I think it's like if we each just sort of find our barometer and say, what can I actually contribute? And we're sort of constantly questioning ourselves. And that's a way to sort of move the needle. But I don't see enough of that. I see way more of signaling.

I see way more of a concern with how I'm being viewed. Right. Versus what can I do. But this goes hand in hand with the toxicity of social media and the algorithm and how you're perceived becomes more important than kind of the real integrity, the real you. I can give you an example. You know, you were asking about my Judaism before and religion. I'm not a religious guy. And my kids are in Hebrew school and stuff like, I'm not a religious guy.

Shalom. I appreciate that. Toda, Robat, does that mean thank you very much? Or does that mean, I don't know. I don't speak Hebrew. But culturally, ethnically, I'm Jewish and I'm very proud of that. And I went to Israel. I was invited there last June.

And I was invited there to speak at this big forum, like a thousand people, mostly creative types. And there were Arabs there, and there were Jews there, and there were Israelis of all walks of life. And the main theme of this talk was about how, through creativity, we might better unify to understand one another. And I wasn't just talking to Jewish people, and I wasn't just talking to Arabs.

It was a confluence of true multiculturalism. And moreover, I paid my own way. I paid for my Uber ride to the airport. I paid for all my meals. I paid for my lime scooter ride to the theater where I gave the talk. The fee that was offered to me for speaking there was $7,500. And I took that fee. And then I doubled that fee out of my own pocket.

So it was $15,000. And I donated half of it to feed children in Gaza that were suffering because of the war. And I took the other half of it given to people that were sort of orphaned by the attacks of October 7th. And then I came home. So that trip, you know, was very expensive for me, not just in foregoing a meaningful fee. Not just in my donation, but the traveling there, the time being away from my family. I was very happy to do it. And I did that.

And I did that without fanfare. I did that without posting my every move on social media. I did that because I thought that was a way of me with my actions. Comments right now. Yeah, but now you're talking about it, douchebags. Sure. That's the truth. But like, I did that be.

I thought it was a way of me actually doing something that might contribute. And I think it did. The audience was very engaged there. Both, you know, the Muslim audience and the Jewish audience and everyone else I spoke to. And I came home and was absolutely eviscerated on social media. I tried to pay attention to it. People kept sending it to me. And there was one young woman who posted a video on TikTok that got over a million views.

and she was saying how I was taking money from baby killers to go over there and promote propaganda. And I went through her feed and every single thing she posted was a similar level of vitriol aimed in some way at those that she disagreed with. And I look at that and I say to myself, like, I did what I could do and I gave my money to help feed these individuals. And it's not much, but I think it maybe had to have had some sort of impact.

At least one person, it must have had some sort of impact. Like, what the fuck did you do? You got on social media and you preached your hate to tear someone down when all I was trying to do was trying to do what I could with my voice, try to bring people together, share a positive statement,

find some optimism in what is an otherwise very ugly situation, and then went out of my way to give my money, to back that up. So it was more than just a gesture. And that is why I have this very cynical take on it, is because I try when I can to act to be good, my definition of good, that other people can disagree.

But for me, this is how I know how me trying to be good. And this individual, in their version, her version of trying to be good, It was about tearing people down. Forget about the fact everything she said was absolutely false, but just trying to tear people down. So some people might see that and say, oh, hmm, she's doing... So she's showing outrage and she gets more clicks that way.

She gets more views and more clicks and more followers and maybe a brand deal and a larger check at the end of the day. Sure. And that's kind of the ugliness. So when I'm, I sound like I'm trying to be humble. I'm not trying to be humble, but... why you have to push so hard to get me to say that, like, I am trying to do what I can to be good. It's because, like, I don't, I'm not interested and I never, my biggest fear is to ever be that kind of virtue signaling bullshit artist that just wants the world to think I'm doing good.

I have, I don't care. I'm 44-year-old father of three who's married with my head down who has been like given. I won the lottery. on life. People are like, you work hard. Bullshit. Because I like make videos every day. You ever met a coal miner? You ever met a farmer? I don't work hard. Like, I would be doing what I do if I wasn't getting paid. I work hard at it, but I love it. I went for a run this morning. It wasn't paid for it. It was hard. I did it because I loved it. I wasn't doing it. It was hard. Nothing I do is working hard. Not when it's compared to like real people in this. world that are, not only ones compared to my dad who sold used restaurant supplies, who in his 40s with all of his physical problems was like tearing out walk-in freezers from restaurants

so he could salvage and resell the doors. Like that's working hard. I don't do that. I live a life of privilege and I did nothing to earn it. I did nothing to. This was just given to me. Like the door was open. I just had to walk through it. So no. Like I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't care. I don't concern myself with what other people think. And that's why I have such a cynical take on the sort of virtue signaling generation of like, let me prioritize what people think of me instead of what I'm actually doing. You talked about, you've got three kids. One is quite older, right? 26. Okay. And then two young ones. Two babies. What has that taught you about the work that you do as a storyteller, as an entrepreneur,

and does that have any bearing on the world that you're trying to build for them? With the exception of the last part, does it have any bearing on the work? It's the reason for everything. Like, I'm in a totally not pro-life Christian kind of way. I believe in a woman's right to choose and all of that. But, like, I am the most pro have babies.

If you're someone who wants to have babies, I have lots of friends who never want to have children. Bless them. But if you're even thinking about it, I am such the guy, I was like, oh, man, have kids. And I think I'm uniquely qualified because I had a kid when I was 17. And I've never not been a dad. I was a child and then I've been a dad. That's the only world I've ever understood.

And the magic of having children, if you're lucky, and you get to have this perspective. Everyone I know shares this perspective, though, is like the minute that child is born, you sort of stop and you're like, what the fuck was everything before? for this moment. Like, I don't, me, like, no, I'm just like, what am I doing all this for me? Like, no, everything is for these things that you create. I will go even further than that.

It is an absolute paradigm shift. And what I thought love was before having a kid, and my wife and I, we only have one kid, but what I thought love was, and then what the reality of love is, is night and day. It's like the dimest star versus looking at the sun. I mean, it's a revolutionary kind of love.

It's visceral. It's in your chest. It's all consuming it. It's a kind of a love that motivates your every action. You know, you're getting up at two in the morning, and then you're heating up some yams, and you're giving up your sleep, and you're giving up all the things you love,

the most. And you're, most of the time, you're doing it really willingly because the love is, it's in your cells. It's, it's on a cellular level. And it's moving your muscles to act in a certain way. It's resonating on a whole other level. And I agree. If like if you, if you want to learn like what love is, have, have a kid. Now, is it possible? And this is where I, where I always go. and this is where I am an absolute naive, dufous, is like, how can we translate that to encompass folks other than our children? How can we love in that way?

I see you getting cynical. How can we love in that way? If we really want the world to change, it's Jesus said, love thy neighbor. Like, like, how can we spread the love? How can we spread the definition of family to be beyond our offspring and beyond our people who share our last name and even beyond the people who live on our cul-de-sac or people in our DNA family tree or people in our community or whatever to encapsulate kids in Gaza or

kids in Yemen or kids in the Congo or Sudan or kids on the southern border or, you know, how can we instill the fire that love to ever broaden? Maybe that's naive. No, I think that... I have a hippie. I just visited my hippie mom. She lives in the woods. You know, they grow their own like mung beans, you know,

kind of like Creed did on the office and their own sprouts. And she dances when she sees a hummingbird. There's a little bit of hippie in me. I kind of think the hippies were right. It's more than a little bit. It's palpable. I think that, like, having, one thing that having children does is it promotes your sense of empathy.

You know, there's this sting song, and it's like, I think it's called the Russians love their children too. And it was like a Cold War song. It was an anti-war song. And it was about, like, you know, the Russians were on the precipice of nuclear war. Like, they love their kids just as much as you love yours. And I think that, like, there's some truth in that. For me, it doesn't matter what conflict I'm looking at around the world when I see what's going on in Ukraine,

when you see what's going on in Sudan, when you see what's going on in the Middle East, no matter you see it. And then you know that there's no conflict that doesn't involve children. Children are always the first victims. It changes the way I feel about conflict and war. It makes me want to do everything I can. See, I get cynical because I just think about the tens of thousands of war mongers

throughout history, that had children and have no problem bombing children or deep warning children. If children did, if having children did for everyone what it's done for you and me, yes, we would walk out of this building and we would walk over our rainbow and onto our fluffy cloud. Like that would be this world we live in. But it's not the case. And I think that for most people it is, and I think that's a pretty optimistic thing. I think for most people having children in some version of this love affair that you and I have just been.

sharing. But I... Well, one of the things I talk about in Soul Bloom is I create a mythical empathy machine. Like, what if we could go into some kind of MRI machine that just put us through some VR headset, you know, in the footsteps of someone in Pakistan herding goats or someone in Cambodia fishing or someone very, very different than us, where we really experience the world as they're seeing it and thinking it and feeling it tangibly. So that we could be like, oh, I am them. They're me.

There's no difference. There's not a separation. Because I do think that the work is always to increase empathy and compassion. Because maximum empathy and compassion is the only thing that's going to change the world. And we live in a world where empathy and compassion is seen as weakness. And especially like males who cry or who care, deeply. They're cucks and their...

Who was the fighter, the UFC guy? You don't watch UFC, do you? It might have been Patty Pimbledon. Yeah. The Irish guy? Yeah, I'm misstating his name. But he, I think it was him. God, I hope it was him.

But he won a fight. And I hope it was him. They put a microphone in front of his face. And instead of saying like, you know, Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, he said with his adrenaline at a 10, he was like, he talked about who recently lost a friend to suicide and how men should not be afraid to open up and talk to other men.

And whether it was him or different UFC, if I don't remember who it was, but whatever, whoever it was, it was a badass dude who just beat the hell out of some other dude and left him unconscious to win the fight. Talking about male vulnerability. Muscles. And like, there's no version of him that's seen as weak. He's the strongest, most badass dude. there is, and he's talking about this. So I, you know, I agree, and it's difficult because when you're

saying it's seen as weak and all that, I just think it's sort of, I think of the political landscape and how messy that whole conversation has become with conflating, like, you know, toxic masculinity and manlyhood and compassion in politics and strength in politics. And for me, it's just, it's a hodgepodge that I don't understand. I'm lost in that world. But when it comes to sort of the individual experience. I think that like, you know, being empathetic and being understanding, I think it just makes you tougher and stronger. I think if you're sort of bullheaded and closed-minded, you've become a very small, very weak individual. Maybe I wish more people saw that. But, you know, for me, empathy came by, by, because I'm lucky and I got to experience

things. You know, I didn't understand war until I stepped foot into a war zone. I didn't understand the fear of terrorism until I experienced a terrorist attack. I didn't understand what poverty looks like. I used to say, talk about how poor I was, talked about in this conversation, until you go to rural Uganda and you understand what poverty is. I'm extremely lucky to get to have had those experiences because they give me a dynamic perspective on the world. most people don't.

And I don't know how to communicate that. I don't know how that could be communicated. But I do think that if we did have a broader, greater understanding of how other people approach this world, that it would promote a greater sense of peace and understanding among us humans. I want to, to the hippie reign, I do want to caveat that, though, by saying,

there is evil in this world, and there has always been evil. And there will, the cynical take, there will always be evil. And I hate war. I hate everything that war is. But I'm also a realist that looks back at, you know, thousands of years of recorded human history. You know, the Sumerians invented writing 6,000 years ago.

And the first things they wrote about were war in conflict. And I don't know how to come to terms of the fact that we're just bald monkeys that only understand how to resolve our disputes by killing one another. And I don't know what that means, but this gives me a very hard take on the world. is that when you see people committing evil, the only way to confront that evil is at the end of a sword. And I think that I get very dismissive of sort of a hippie idealism, pacifist idealism.

That's like, no, no, no, no, don't engage no matter what. I think of, you know, Chamberlain and getting off that plane, holding up the peace agreement with Hitler and smiling in the air and then having Hitler invade Poland a few days later. Like, that's what I think of. So it leaves me with a very confused, very, very complicated while my hands up in the air perspective on the world. I mean, I think that's a false dichotomy.

I think that you can have a hippie spirit and believe that God is love and want to spread love and joy and compassion on the world. And in every spiritual tradition, including mine, which is the Baha'i faith, there is a dynamic in the spiritual world of justice. And you can't have love without justice and justice without love. So you have to have that balance because we have two names. because we have two natures. We have those bald fighting monkey nature that you, you know, that you said.

And we also have the loving nature and we have children and we have increased empathy and compassion. But there has to be a balance. But in the world right now, I see a dearth of love. I see a dearth of empathy. Have you read the rational optimist? No. It's great.

And it's this very broad view of the world that's, you know, basically like if I were to write the inside cover, be like, all right, just chill out. We're doing pretty good. And it just puts into context, like, what it meant to be a woman who's pregnant 100 years ago versus what it means today, what it means to be someone who wants a glass of water. There's a lot of books that talk about that and they talk about how, you know, we used to lose 50% of children during childbirth. And now, you know, you don't lose one in, you know, 10,000 and how the standard of living is up around the world. But I think that also gets a little dangerous because it does this book in particular it it ties it specifically to um it's been a while since I read it but it tied the what I took from it is how it ties

it specifically to things like a passion of yours climate change something that I too am very worried about and how it's just like innovation and the human spirit for innovation the human desire to solve problems is what's taken you know mortality rates from 50% to 1 in 10,000 or whatever it might be It's what's taking us to all these good places and to have faith in the human spirit to overcome the hardships that we're facing today. Maybe it's a little idealized. I think that's a preposterous hippie-dippy point of view because actually mortality is increasing in the United States. People are dying younger and they're dying more and more unhappy than they were 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago. Isn't that, no, isn't that just more like 5, 10 years ago than 20, 30 years ago?

Didn't the downturn just kind of begin? I don't think so. I don't think so. I think it started in the, and maybe the 80s. I could be wrong, yeah. You had a quote when I was researching you and how to have this conversation, and you said that it's always the hardest times that made you what you are and who you are. What were some of those hardest times for you?

You've spoken about, you know, living in the trailer and being on the poverty line or below the poverty line. You always talk about risk-taking in your work. You talk about vulnerability. You have made yourself incredibly vulnerable in so many of the vlogs and films that you've made. How do all of those things intersect? What is the perfect storm of the hardest time, the biggest risk you took, the most vulnerable you've been,

and how did you transform that? How did you come out the other side? What did you express going through that? There's this idea that like the hardest thing you know, I'm going to say it wrong, it's like the hardest thing you know is the hardest thing you know. So, you know, for those like the people that I met that lived in rural Uganda, they know a version of hard that you and I will never know. And like for my, you know, for the people who live in this big city that are, you know, trust fund kids, they'll never know the version of hard that I experienced, not knowing how I was able to afford enough groceries that week. So the hardest thing you know is the hardest thing you know.

And when I think of like the greatest challenges that I've experienced, like I don't look to like climbing a big mountain, which we can talk about. It was really exciting and almost died. But that was elective. I think more to like, you know, I can close my eyes and feel what I felt then. But like when I was 17 years old and I dropped out of high school in the 10th grade and there was like the senior skip day.

I don't know if kids still do that today. Did you have that? Yeah, yeah, we did. But like senior skip day was happening. And I, you know, they're all my friends, but I wasn't still in the school and I went to go or something like that. And like one of the other kids' moms

was like something, something, hang around Casey. Maybe you can drop out too and work in her kitchen, work in some kitchen somewhere and have a kid. And the shame that I felt when I heard this person say that about me was so real. It was so palpable. Like, so much so, like, you know, like you can evoke certain emotions.

Like, I've broken up with my girlfriends before, Candice and I, before we got married, we had some hard breakups, and I was devastated. I can't evoke that feeling right now. But I can remember what that felt like. And I remember it so much because I was really proud of working in that restaurant. Like, I started at minimum wage. And a year later, I was getting nine bucks an hour. I thought I was doing really well.

I was a dishwasher and now as a prep cook. I was really proud of what I was able to do. My parents didn't give me any money and like we had a place to live. And like I got us off of welfare, like off of food stamps. The first opportunity I could. I wasn't on food stamps. I was on WIC, women, infants, and child. Free milk and diapers.

I was really proud of that. Did you get government cheese? Maybe. Yeah. That's a thing. It's a thing. No, we got it was actually. Well, we got it was an actual debit card.

Okay. But it only worked for a couple of things. You'd have to go to grocery stores that had that partnership. But I remember being very limited to diapers, milk. And I think we were able to do formula and stuff. We just didn't do that. You walk around Brooklyn, there's a lot of folks with formula that want you to go and hand it in and get cash for it and get the cash. And that was like that wasn't as big a problem in southeastern Connecticut.

So when I think of like the hardest things I've felt, it's like the externalized hardships that you might have. have. I get, you know, I got into a motorcycle accident and almost had my femoral artery cut in half and my femur was in 27 pieces and they had to cut me open for 18 hours of emergency surgery and rebuild my leg out of metal. Not on the radar of hardest things I've experienced. That was a, that was a, I drop in the ocean that was the shame I felt as a teenager. Because in that moment, I'm now a guy who looks around and doesn't really pay much mind to what the world thinks of me. But when I was a teenager, knowing that the few people who knew who I was, that was my whole world. And to think, even though that was just one mom saying that about me, it felt like that's what everybody, all these people felt about me.

And for me, that was the hardest thing. I'll highlight like there's a juxtaposition to that. There's a, on the other side of that was like my best friend in the whole world, Joe. I remember he would leave school and come over to my trailer and play video games with me after school. And I couldn't leave the trailer because I had to watch the baby because Owen's mother would be at work during the day. I would work at night. I was sort of stuck in this trailer with the baby sleeping all afternoon. And like Joe would come over all the time to play video games with me.

And I've never asked him about it. I've never brought it up. I talked to him all the time. I talked to him yesterday, but I've never brought it up. But I look back now and I know that some part of him doing that was so, you know, I would have my friend.

And so I would like not be the teenage. To normalize things. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like there's beauty in that. But like that, I will never forget how that felt. There's a bunch of other needles in there too. That was the, you know, that was the hammer.

But, you know, like it. Doesn't this tie back to what's happening in social media and contemporary society where there's online bullying, but, you know, teenagers and young folks in their 20s and their self-esteem is so tied into how people think of them. And they're so fragile. They're so fragile. We all were so fragile, especially. You start to get a little tougher skin in your later 20s and 30s. And then finally, I'm in my 50s and I could give a fuck anymore. But, and there you are like a see-enemey when you're on social media and when you're online and how people can attack you.

Yeah. And how they can do that same thing that you experienced on a daily basis. An anonymously. Anonymously, yeah. And it's tough. In school, all kinds of different apps that that can happen on and comments sections and all the broken hearts out there of the young people. I mean, that is throwing kerosene on this mental health crisis. Yeah, I think it is the mental health crisis.

You know, I think it's, there's always been issues. You know, it was like when we were, when I was in the 80s, 90s, it was, you know, suicide. And then food issues with, like, eating disorders, those were the issues. And so it's always, there's always been a threat of mental health among young people. I just think social media is the kerosene. It is the gasoline that's just set the whole thing ablaze. And I think it's because, I don't think. Are you going to keep your kids off of it?

We have a rule in our house that I think is fair. So we have a 6-year-old and a 10-year-old daughter, and my wife and I have collectively decided that they're both allowed to get a smartphone and join social media when they turn 35. Because by then we think they'll have the level of maturity. That was a great misdirect. That was so, I was waiting for 16, 17.

I will say that I think that our timing is pretty good because I think five or six years ago, if you had a 12-year-old, you would be very proud as a parent to be able to give them a smartphone. And they get to connect with all their friends. But, you know, in the last five years, the dangers of social media,

especially for young people, especially young girls, have been revealed. And it's sort of understood now. So, you know, within my older daughter's class, she's 10 now, I think there's one or two kids

that might have smartphones. And then there are five or six other parents that we have open lines of communication with that have all agreed. No cell phones. No smart phones. The fun thing is, they all want them

and I've offered my daughter and my friends have offered to get a flip phone like you can get a flip phone no social media but you can get that today and they flat out rejected yeah like now

they're not interested which really reveals they're like I need the phone to be able to call you in case something happens I'll get you a flip phone and it's like I'm good you're not gonna make a good lawyer sweetheart

like this is not so I you know we were talking about the dangers of sort and I don't know what the solution is but I can tell you that like yeah that feeling that I had as an adolescent who was a dad who was struggling in life and then to find out someone felt that way about me

how real that was for me. I'm an adult now and I can look back and be like, no, that was just my friend's mom who was going through a divorce and was being mean and was looking to shit on someone. And she picked me. But I'm an adult and I'm mature and I understand that when I was 16, 17, I didn't know that.

And I think there's a parallel between young people today and social media when they look at the comments and everyone's saying you're ugly, you're fat, you're stupid, they feel like the world feels that way about them. When the reality is, it was just someone who's, you know, hurt people, hurt people. So let me take this person down and make them feel like shit, and then they forget about it. You know, I've talked a lot about how, I don't know how I've said it,

but I know I've said it aggressively, and I've made videos about it, like, no one's thinking about you. No one gives a shit about you. And I think the sooner, that's a very harsh take, but what I'm saying, it can be very helpful. It can be, it's freeing. is what that is. But it's developmentally for kids that are between 13 and 23,

they think everyone's thinking. It's impossible. Someone looks at them twice or disregards something that they say, like they hate me or because we're necessary narcissists at that age. Because you're seeking to establish your identity in the world. And so you're in a constant dynamic of, you know, synchronicity and opposition. Do you like me?

Yes, no. Do you like me? But you grow up and you realize that like it not only isn't meaningless, but that reality of like no one's thinking about you. To me, like what that means. I say it more harsh. I say no one cares about you. I think I said that on Rich Rolls podcast.

But what that means to me is it's like I don't care how beautiful, rich, tall, successful that person is that you're seeing. Trust me. They have their demons that they're dealing with. Yeah. And that's what they're thinking about. They're not thinking about you. Even at looking in your eye and say,

Rain, I've been thinking about you for so long. And, man, Dwight True was the stupidest character ever. I want you to walk away being like, man, that guy's been thinking about that for 20 years? It's like, no, no. In this moment, he's mad at you. Well, it's interesting because with my own narcissism, it's something I've had to get used to is like, people don't give a fuck about Rain Wilson as a celebrity. And it's okay.

It's all right, people. I'm so fine with it. I've done a lot of therapy. I've done a lot of 12-step. I'm totally fine with it. they loved this character that I played so much. So like the fandom that I get, the fan love, like, hey, like they'll see me, hey, I love you. It's like, you don't know me, you don't know anything about me, you don't know what I stand for.

You don't even know, a lot of the times you don't even know what my name is. You love this character that I played on this sitcom. And that's okay. And God bless you. And I'm so glad I got to be a part of a beautiful sitcom that was funny and uplifting and smart. and move the ball forward. That has been a lot of my own over the last 15 years.

My own kind of, like, oh, they do, they love me. Oh, they appreciate me. Finally, I'm getting, like, they love Dwight Shrewt. And that's okay, that's okay. This podcast got way more like, deep and therapy session

and cathartic and helpful than I had, but I wanted to, as a question I had for you, is like. That's called soul boom, motherfucker. What the fuck do you do?

We're doing here. Right now. I'm here to chat about this project. I have, I don't have anything to promote. I have some chatty questions for you that I'm just dying to know. Okay, let's go. We got a few minutes. When you walk down the street, is it, does it just Dwight, Dwight, Dwight, Dwight?

Like when you go and you get on a Spirit Airlines flight. I don't take Spirit. Are you kidding me? That was, I did that dig on purpose. That was nice. I just wanted to see you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you walk through.

Aren't they bankrupt now anyway? I think they're bankrupt. I wouldn't ride that. I wouldn't ride that. airline with those people. I do take a velo. What does that mean? That's a discount airline that flies to Bend, Oregon, because we've got a cabin up like

Bend, Bend, Oregon. It's beautiful. Can I connect you with her? Because she just moved to Bend, Oregon. Yeah. And you're literally the only other person that I've ever met from Ben, Oregon. I will go offshore around Bend, Oregon. Okay, great.

That's amazing. Great. But. Do people yell Dwight? Like, do people see you as a human being, or do they just see you as Dwight? I get, so if I'm, if I go walk down Fifth Avenue. Yeah. Right here.

Tell me. Tell me. I will get, I will get the person like, I get that. And then I'll get the, Dwight. It's Dwight. Hey, Dwight, can I get a picture? I'll get that. And then I'll also get.

So that's about a third, third. And then the other third, like, hey, love your work, Rain. Hey, Rain, love your work. Oh, you do get that. Okay. And that's shifted over over the last 10 years as people, I think they've seen my name on the screen and the credits enough times. like, oh, it's Rain Wilson, but maybe they know, maybe they know some of the other stuff I'm doing. And it does, you're able to, you're able to keep your cool.

It never. If someone's a dick, I'm just like, Dwight, hey, and they're interrupting a conversation, Dwake and then I'm like, no, man, no. I'm not interested. But generally, I try and be, I try and be decent to the, to the fans. Because I have, I have a weird relationship with, but for you, it's just you, it's Casey. Yeah, this is what I'm doing. There's no Dwight.

There's no, like, there's no character there. A buddy of mine has a television show called Catfish. And, you know, he's such a handsome, you know, like, he's very recognizable guy, Neve. And when Neve and I would go running, people go, yo, the catfish guy. Hey, Casey Nystad, how's your wife? And it's like, I try to think through what it means because it... And then if I went running with you, like, it's white. Catfish guy.

Hey, Casey. Seriously. I try to understand it because, like, you know, I love Brad Pitt because he's so good. Yeah. I don't know that guy. And easy on the eyes. He's a stud. I don't know that guy at all.

So if I were to meet him, I mean, if I were to meet him, I would just walk into the direction. But in some theoretical world, if I were to meet him, I'd be like, yo, Tyler Durdon, that move that was sick when you made the soap out of fat, out of human fat. I don't know who that person is. And a thing that's made me super insecure is that when people yell my name, there's a very real likelihood that they genuinely know some version of who I actually am. And it's a very strange,

I don't want to characterize this as negative. It's not negative, but it's a very difficult thing as a human to try to understand that these people actually know. know you and you don't know them at all. Yeah, that's interesting. That's a weird kind of vulnerability. You've laid out everything about your life.

Like, I know Dwight Shrew. Yeah. And I know, I know Rain Wilson. A little bit. Yeah. But I probably know Dwight better than I know Ray. Well, it's interesting, too. A lot of the comments, you know, are like, you know,

especially if I talk about hippy-dippy things like spirituality and loving each other and and climate change, making the world a better place. It's funny. You're talking about bears and Battlestar, they would be like, this is bullshit.

Dwight would never say any of these things. Like, there is a large percentage of the population that would want me to be Dwight. Casey, thanks for coming by Soulbone. What percentage of your notes did we get through?

Honestly? Pretty good? We did pretty good. Okay. Thanks, Casey. Will be fist bumping? Yeah. How many,

cookies did you get through? I just ate two. Want something? No, I'm on a diet. The Soul Boom Podcast. Subscribe now on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever else you get your stupid podcasts.