Soul Boom - David Archuleta: Coming Out of Mormonism & Finding God Again

Episode Date: September 17, 2026

SPONSORS!👇 🛒 NOCD 👉 If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NOCD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started: https://nocd.com 🛒 Get 25% Off Cowboy Colostrum with code SOULBOOM 👉 http://cowboycolostrum.com/soulboom. 🛒 ZipRecruiter 👉 https://ziprecruiter.com/soulboom 🙏 Fetzer 👉 ⁠⁠https://fetzer.org⁠⁠ 🛒 Quince 👉 https://quince.com/soulboom David Archuleta joins Rainn Wilson for a deeply vulnerable conversation about leaving the Mormon Church, coming out, religious scrupulosity, OCD, sexuality and rebuilding his relationship with God. David reflects on the shame that once made him believe his soul was “dirty,” the freedom he found after accepting himself and why music, community and queer love can all become sacred experiences. MERCH OUT NOW! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://soulboom.com/store⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Sign up for our newsletter! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://soulboom.substack.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ SUBSCRIBE to Soul Boom! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bit.ly/Subscribe2SoulBoom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ FOLLOW US! Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://instagram.com/soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://tiktok.com/@soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Sponsor Soul Boom: [e-mail] Work with Soul Boom: [e-mail] Executive Produced by: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Kartik Chainani⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Executive Produced by: Ford Bowers, Samah Tokmachi Companion Arts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In Toronto, every arrival is a statement, and nothing says it better than this. Cadillac Optic was the number one selling luxury EV in Canada for 2025. Find your rhythm across a seamless 33-inch display and an immersive 19-speaker AKG surround audio system. This city demands agility, and Optic delivers with precision to make every drive extraordinary. Let's take the Cadillac. Find out more at Cadillac Canada.ca. Luxury sales claim based on S&P Global Mobility Canadian New Vehicle Total Registrations for calendar year 2025 for the Cadillac definition of luxury. Hey there, it's me, Rain Wilson, and I want to dig into the human experience. I want to have conversations about a spiritual revolution. Let's get deep with our favorite thinkers, friends,

and entertainers about life, meaning, and idiocy. Welcome to the Soul Boom podcast. A quick thanks to our sponsors, ZipRecruiter, Cowboy Colostrum, Quince Fetzer, and No CD. Links and promo codes on screen and in the description. Support our show by supporting our sponsors. Enjoy. I've read a lot of memoirs of folks coming on the show, and you get so vulnerable, so fast, you lay it all out, everything you've been through. It was very brave. How scary was that to kind of really totally reveal yourself in these pages? Because you go there.

Yeah. I don't know what it is about being an overshoot. Or like maybe I grew up religious where you feel like this need to always tell the truth. Confess or something. Yeah. To confess and to just be honest and tell the truth. Like a combination of all those things being a priority. I think I've just kind of shaped me to be the person I am.

People always wanted to know the vulnerable side of like, well, how did you come out after being so religious? And especially people who were religious and not out of the closet yet. I was in the airport in Salt Lake City, Utah one time, and someone approached me, and he just, he's like, I can't believe you're here. And he's like, how did you do it? And I was like, how did I do what? Even though I kind of knew what he was probably going to get to. And he said, how did you come out? And it just made me realize, like, yeah, it was hard, it's a hard place to get to when you are in the environment of a very, like, conservative, religious, like, community where they have their very firm stances on certain things,

especially like the queer community. So, but I guess I didn't think of like, oh my gosh, because I like, I went through, I'm like, okay, I'm over it. But I didn't think of how there's so many people still there. And they don't know how to get out of it. And they don't know how to not just get out of the religion. Because I, you know, I was just with some of my friends, my friends who invited me to the Rosalia concert last night.

They're gay Mormons. They're married. My friend Charlie and his husband, Ryan, and they still attend church. And they're like, yeah, it's frustrating because we're not able to participate fully because we married. But they're trying to challenge the status. What's considered the norm? It's like, yeah, before people would get excommunicated for getting married if you're the same sex. And you still can, but it's kind of like depends on who your leader is and how flexible they are with you.

And he's fortunate enough that he's been public with his journey and they're more understanding. But it's still like, well, but you can't fully participate. Like he can't go into the temples, for example. So like people don't have to leave the religion, but I did. It was just easier for me. But I was just kind of like, well, man, who else is out there that I don't know? and they're probably too scared to ask anybody. So I'll write a book and maybe they'll pick it up if they're not too afraid of it.

Because a lot of Mormons were like, oh, I don't know if we can read that book. It might be anti-Mormon or anti-church literature, which we were always taught growing up, like a lot of times, like, stay away from anti-Mormon literature. Anything that would try to challenge your faith and shake it and shake your testimony. So I had people being like, I don't know if. I should read it because I love, they're like, I love David, but I also love my church. And this might challenge, this might be something that is putting down the church. And I tried really hard to make sure that it's like, hey, I'm coming from a place where I loved what I grew up in. And I still love a lot of things about it. And I love the people. And so I feel like when you pick it up,

you realize I'm not trying to bash your beliefs if you still choose to believe. But I want you to have some better perspective on what queer people have to deal with and what their mental, how low their mental place can get and why there's such a high suicide rate amongst LGBTQ plus people in the church, in the Church of Jesus Christ. Well, I thought you did a really great job of not bashing the church, but just saying, this was my experience. And these were the struggles that I had. And maybe there are some universal struggles there

and things that people can relate to. But I thought you held a really nice balance. Hey, everybody, make sure to click subscribe. It's right over here somewhere. Please, pretty please. It would help us at Soul Boom so much. Click subscribe. What was it like growing up in the church

and what did you love about it? I was born into the church, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But everyone knows it as Mormon, but I know that they're trying to... LDS, right. They're trying to be like, well, we don't want to use Mormon anymore. That's like in New York City Avenue of the Americas, but everyone knows it as Sixth Avenue.

You'll call it Sixth Avenue. The official name is Avenue of the Americas. Okay. No one calls it Avenue of the Americas. Let's get real. Okay. That's actually... That's a good analogy.

Analogy. Analogy. For Latter-day Saints watching the problem. But if I say Mormon, it's a slip of the tongue. Everyone's fine. People are going to get mad at all kinds of things. Who knows? I know. You said people were getting mad at your pain. They got mad at my monkey pain. Come on. My faith, the Baha'i faith, recently released a letter called A Common Endeavor. And it's kind of thinking about America on its 250th anniversary, which is the 4th of July. What would a spiritual renewal of America look like? And that's not

like a nationalistic faith or Christian nationalism or anything like that, but spiritual virtues and qualities and values, how could we accentuate those, you know, in our big American experience? And a lot of that conversation, a lot of that debate is between individualism and collectivism. And I feel like it's really this either or. It's kind of like the don't tread on me, kind of every man for himself. American ideal of rugged individualism. And then you're a socialist, if you want kind of like a government safety net to kind of take care of the collective.

But you have to find a balance, obviously, and there have been social experiments in collectivism and communism and community where you're not allowed to express yourself individualistically and find your path and and break free you know i have a lot of friends that live in certain cultures and they call it like the tall poppy syndrome like if you if you break out and you're different you're like cut down you know to to try and to try and fit in maybe it's that way a little bit in the in the Mormon faith i'm not sure so how do we find this balance between allowing individuals to thrive and at the same time what's the debt that we owe to the society that allowed those individuals to thrive. And this is a, it's a cultural conversation we really have not figured out yet.

Maybe there are places in the world we could learn from that allow, maybe Spain perhaps, I don't know, that allow a flourishing entrepreneurship, individual initiative, kind of breaking out of kind of the constraints, but at the same time paying back into society and understanding like the commonality and the care of one for another and how it was how we got to where we are with the help and on the shoulders of others. You know, it makes me think of, because I've gone to Japan a couple of times and I have some dear friends there that I've stayed with a couple of times when I go out there and they came out to actually to SoCal one time to Disneyland and my mom and I,

I went with them to go to, like, to Disneyland to go together. But her name's Fujiko san. I call her Fuchan. But while I was there, I was so intrigued that they, once a week, the whole neighborhood gets together and cleans the neighborhood. Wow. It's not just their neighborhood. There are several neighborhoods in Japan that do it.

And I went and joined and I was just like, I, this is so interesting because I, I think sometimes in the U.S. it's like, well, I don't have time for that. Or, you know, you mind your own business and I'll mind my own business. I'll take care of my thing, but that's not my problem. And a lot of times you lose that communal aspect and that, like, that tribal aspect that's like, I think is human, like the collectivism. Religion is so such a prominent factor in people's lives still. and like Christian a lot there's people who want Christian nationalism and there have been like the concerns

about that like because it's like well there's supposed to be a free you know religious like separation of church and state yeah yeah so there have been complaints about that but it's also like well there's there's also this need for people who want to feel a collectivism in some way or shape or form but I think we also forget I don't for some reason there's this it's like that thinking of of like, well, I have to think about myself and the individualism. And so you're on your own. And if you're not one of my own, then I'm not going to worry about you, that we lose a lot of this beauty of where we have leaders who, we have leaders who are too stuck in the individualistic mindset, even though they're in positions where they're supposed to be looking after their

people and their community. But like, in Japan, just the fact that it's like, no one has to do that. You look after the World Cup games, you know, when they're Japanese fans. Right. Cleaning up. They're cleaning up because it's about the collectivism and there there there's a mindset that they've adapted of course they're looking out for themselves they need to get a job and put food on their table and they want to have fun and enjoy they're going to baseball ballgame for themselves but it's also like there's this satisfaction when you're you're working together and and making the place around you better and not just for yourself but for other people study after study has shown that human flourishing, thriving, happiness, longevity,

positive mental health comes from connection and community. And that is one thing that churches give us. At their best, you have a diverse group of people coming together, taking care of each other, praying, singing together, working together shoulder to shoulder, and loving one another. At its best, the breakdown of, I believe, religious institutions over the last 50 years, and a lot of times for a very good reason, has fractured that sense of community. There are beautiful things to it and also some things that felt hollow about it at the same time because sometimes you felt like you had to erase your own person, like identity in order to fit in with

the whole collective whole. And I guess that's where you have to find that happy medium. And maybe that's part of why it's been so difficult for the U.S. for being a melting pot to find a national identity as like an American. What does it mean? It means because that was the culture, like the Sash of Liberty was about bringing immigrants. And now, you know, there's a whole debate about, like, what, you know, how much of that diversity and, and melting pot do we need? I feel like so many churches throughout history and especially American history have brought us so many of the greatest singers. You think about Aretha Franklin. Oh, yeah. And you think about Jewish canters and singers that came up through the synagogue and the Jewish musical tradition as well.

You talk and devout about when you discovered musicals. What was it? Bernadette Peters, yeah. And other musicals that you saw Le Miz and tell me about how that, what it was like seeing musicals. Have you done a musical? Have you gone to Broadway and done anything? I've not done Broadway, but I did do one production of Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat. Oh, you're perfect for that.

And it was so fun. Yeah, I did it four years ago. Yeah. At this theater called the Tuicon in southern Utah. They call it Broadway in the canyon. Huge productions. And it's beautiful. It's kind of like red rocks in Colorado.

It's surrounded by all these beautiful just in the Red Stone Canyon. And they just put huge productions on there. And they bring, they fly in a lot of people from New York to do the shows. And it's, and it's beautiful. It was another sense of community. So it was like, as it was like right after I had come out as well. I was trying to find like my footing like, what, what is my sense of community now? Because like I still had like my church community, but it was like not the same anymore.

Because I was clearly different from them. Because you're supposed to be like, well, if you're. you, if you're gay, it's like you're more supposed to just acknowledge you have it, but don't act on it. I had made the choice that's like, no, I'm going to live my life. So I was like in this weird, like, limbo. So the theater was like a place where I felt like, oh, I can find a new sense of community.

And almost all the guys in the production were gay or queer in some way. Not every, all of them, but almost all of them. And just to see that there were performers that, like, it was my first time like hanging out with gay people after coming out, really, was in the Joseph production and to see how you could find friends and feel like their family. You share a common goal of trying to put the show on for the audience and you really have each other's back because you need everybody to make the show happen and make it a good experience for the audience and bring them into the story you're telling. And it was, yeah, it was really sweet. I hope you'll do more theater and more musicals.

I think that's great. And I just want to say amen, because I found my community in the theater. I really did. I was always looking for community. Growing up, I was kind of a Baha'i nerd. And I had it a little bit in my church. I had it in my Dungeons and Dragons group. I had it a little bit on my chess team, you know, had a little bit in orchestra and marching band.

But when I started doing productions, you're exactly right. There is something about, and talk about diversity. diversity being welcomed. It's welcomed in the theater like no place else. Yeah. Gay, straight, trans, black, white, every, every shape. Mormon. Color.

LDS. Yeah. And I just felt so valued for being as odd as I was. You know, I was skinny as a stick and kind of pimply and really self-conscious. But I could also be funny. And I was just welcomed. And that really started my path as an actor. And I found it in acting school.

Yeah, I can get a little catty and competitive. And there's envy and you're jostling for parts and stuff like that. And that's all part of it. But everywhere I went, there was this really rich community. And when you do a play with people and you're there for, you know, two to four months and you're all collectively trying to tell a story in the best possible way, If the director is able to focus you in the right way towards the telling of that story, like you come together.

It's like a sports team. And that's when humans shine is like, and it's the crew and it's the cast and it's the designers and everyone has a role to play. And I just think we can learn so much from, we keep coming back to this idea of community, connection, collectivism. And I think we can do that as a world more. And I think it's a shifting. I always talk about a spiritual revolution on Soul Boom.

Part of a spiritual revolution is a shifting of mindset of like, hey, we're all in this together. Let's save and cherish and sacralize planet Earth. We can all do this together. And we all have a part to play. And we all have a part to play in making the world a better place. Amen to everything you said. I would love to find a way,

what you described perfectly with the theatrical, like how everyone plays a, part and it makes you look past any differences that anyone may have. And you see everyone for who they are as a human being, despite how they may look or what their sexuality may be or what their religion that there were that they grew up in. Everyone manages somehow to look past that in the theater world on a stage to create this art together and to tell this story and bring whoever may be in the audience, wherever they may come from, into that world for a moment and get lost in it. And I would love to find. find a way to do that on the more day to day aspect of life. Where it's like it doesn't matter if you are gay. It doesn't matter if you are Honduran. It doesn't matter if you are Mormon.

That you're able to find a place for everyone. And not keep saying, well, because this makes you different, I need to push you out. Because the theater world shows is one example that that's possible. And it works beautifully. It kind of gives you a perspective too on like, well, what really brings you this fulfillment of living and satisfaction? You know, David, and one of the things that came up, it was heartbreaking reading your story. It was heartbreaking how much the division in your family, the rifts and the issues that you had with your father and his roller coaster of his story and your story with him. But within your family and within the church, so much bullying and so much division.

And it just, it really broke my heart. I really felt for you. And in this conversation, it just makes me think like, our job is to love. That's it. Our job is to love. And our job is not to judge. And at its best, a religious group, a church, a gathering, whatever, you know, Muslim, Jewish, you know, Buddhist, is to love the congregants. and to love the people that aren't the congregants just as much and love them in their diversity

and accept them and welcome them. Because that's where God is. God is in the act of loving someone. That's where faith is. That's where prayer is. And we fall into our worst tribal instincts of us versus them. And we do it in churches too. And it's something I have to watch for.

I can be very judgmental. And it's one of my worst care. I'm in 12 steps. one of my worst character defects as well. That's good that you're aware of that. I think sometimes it's hard to admit that to ourselves, how judgmental we can get. And I ask my wife all the time,

like, if you hear me, start to go there, Judgey Mick Judgerson, like, let me know. She doesn't do it as much as she should because she's too kind. But yeah, it's something I have to really watch. Hey, here's a plot twist. At age 59, I got diagnosed with OCD. And for me, OCD is not some cute little thing like organizing your toothbrush.

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New season is now streaming on Paramount Plus. I'm Richard Roper. This is the movie of your life. Now, think about it. Every one of us gets top billing in our own movie, but no great story happens alone. Life comes with an ensemble cast. On this show, we're going to explore that connection between life and the movies we love.

Now, often, I'll be joined by people who have amazing stories, and we'll talk about the films that shaped who they are. Other times, we're going to go on deep dive, maybe the best movies for the holidays, unforgettable performances, to paying tribute to the great actors of our time. We also want to hear from you. What's the movie of your life? The one film that you'd watch again,

if you could only watch one movie, one last time. It's the movie of your life podcast. My job is to love and accept and encourage. And that's in my daily life, in my friend circles, and that's here at Soul Boom. That tends to be the objective. Like, people want, like, ideally to find a place where everyone feels safe and welcome and your needs are met. Sometimes we can be conditioned to believe that certain things or certain people are a threat

to that piece and to make into your life functional. And I think it's important to challenge some of those beliefs that we have. Even beliefs that we're told are there to keep us safe. Sometimes are not there for that purpose. It's really to cause division and to that there, unfortunately, there are greedy people out there. Ideally, we would love for everyone to work together, but there are people. who are like, hmm, I think I can take advantage of the good, the well-meaning nature of these people and get more out of it. And I think that's a harsh reality you have to accept as well. And that's

why you have to work harder and take firmer stances on calling it out. Calling out injustice or where you see people falling short of that ideal. Yeah. Of total acceptance. Yeah. Yeah. So for me, like with my community, I know there are a lot of well-meaning people, very wholesome, pure people who also have certain beliefs that keep them from seeing certain things like the queer experience is what I wrote about. And I think you have to challenge it. And it's like, I know that this is what you were taught. But, you know, if you're willing to look past some of your hard stances and say, know, like if I accept this and if I accept gay people in their lifestyle, I'm going against God. It's like if you're willing to not act from a fearful place and just listen and be an understanding,

you will find love in the place that you thought was fearful. And if anything, you'll be surprised at how much of God you'll end up finding in the queer community and queer spaces. And yeah, there are pros and cons to the queer community as well. but I feel like if you give it a chance to have a healthier place to thrive, because the queer community has never, it's had to still has to fight for its own footing and grounding to take root and to blossom and nurture itself.

Because there's a lot of, you're getting a lot of people who are coming from broken places and places where they were cast out and rejected. And they, so you're, they don't know if they're, they're really going to be okay with other people and be valued. and accept it or people are going to hate them. So you get all that trauma and get them all together and they're like, so you're trying to build this community.

And, you know, they've made a lot of beautiful progress. So what is your relationship to Jesus and how have you found spirituality since leaving the church or spiritual community since leaving the church? That's a very interesting question. Where before I was like hanging on for dear life to it. was just like, I was like, I need to be cemented and glued it to this and attached to it in a sense of very codependent. I didn't want to know what my identity was without that. I needed it to be like, I need to see myself attached to Jesus to God.

And I was afraid to let go of any, to know what I would look like without it because I knew there was, I knew I was queer. And I was so afraid of it that I was just like, I don't want to know myself anymore. I want to completely get lost in the identity of my Christianity and my belief in Jesus and following him. Whereas now, I've loosened that up a lot. Before I was like, am I accepted by him? Will I be approved? Will I get into heaven? It's kind of like, you know, I take these beliefs and I see Jesus as someone who, who looked at, and his whole purpose, like all the stories and all the parables that he taught,

he caused the focus of them were, well, you may have looked at this person one way. And yeah, you consider this person to be bad or doing the wrong thing. What do you think of them now after you've heard my story? Wow. That's so well said. And it's like maybe we don't be as judgmental.

And the people that you were praising before who are the ones who are the law, who keep the law and who are the religious, like, hierarchy, like on the top, what do you think of them now? And are they any better after you've heard my parable than any other person? And he always, he, like, left room for you to really think about the parameters we were given on how to judge people and what makes someone good and what makes them bad.

And he's like, you know, have more compassion. I don't think, I don't want to look at it as he's my savior because I feel like that was twisted in a way. It's like because I was, I feel like Jesus was used before as you've, someone else telling me, Jesus would be really upset with you if you accepted you're gay. And I don't want that narrative because it's like, if I think independently, I see. Jesus for how I see Jesus. And it is not, I read the stories and I hear his parables and I see how his life was talked about in the New Testament. It is not what I hear in church doctrine a lot of times. Yeah, that disconnect is as a Baha'i, we're taught to really look at the words and actions and deeds, example, the parables, the metaphors in the works and words of Jesus Christ.

Really, the Red Letter Bible. And that division between that Jesus and contemporary Christian faith, and I'll put Mormonism and LDS in with that, is kind of crazy and really confuses me. Because exactly what you're talking about. he's walking and he's going to go talk to a Samaritan. It's like, wait, you don't talk to a Samaritan. That's a different tribe. He's like, I'm going to talk to the Samaritans and try and save them.

Wait, you're talking to the prostitutes? What are you doing? Get out of there. I'm not only that. I'm going to wash their feet. And the beggars and you're going to talk to the, and the lepers? I mean, he's literally interacting with the people who are cast off, cast away, judged. You're not supposed to talk to those people.

And it piss people off. time again over and over and over again. And with total love and humility. And that's, again, we're going back to this kind of a radical kind of love that is our job as humans. That is our job as Christians, as LDS, as Baha'is. And the other stuff is nonsense. It's funny because this Christian friend of mine talks about all this all this

focus on sex and premarital sex and gender and sexual orientation and whatnot. He calls it crotch Christianity. That was really funny. It's like the number of, you know, yes, lust is addressed a great deal in the Bible. But really like the Bible is so much about justice and connection and mutual service and God and transcendence and just love. as this power in the world. There's so little about where we should put our dicks.

And yet that takes such a large focus over the last hundred years. It's it's kind of crazy making. It's like, I don't think God cares where you put your dick. That's what I think. As long as you're sexual in a way that is conscious, loving, you know, reducing kind of our worst qualities. qualities because what is what is lust it's an animal quality and it can be very dangerous there can be addiction around it and it could be harmful like if if you if you let your intense emotions

harm other people i think that's something that is important to be mindful of yeah but like if you're participating in a sexual act with someone who you know as an adult like another consenting adult and it is there's a mutual understanding. There's a mutual understanding for responsibility. Yeah. A consciousness. A connection.

A care. Yes. Yeah. I've learned there are people out there who aren't looking for a connection and care. They're looking just to feel something, you know? And I guess, you know, that's their decision. But for me, you're right. Like in the book, I talk about how one of my church leaders said, you know,

well, it's okay if you fall in love with a man, but just don't get married. them because then you'll want sex. Then you want to have sex, a natural sex with them, and that's against God's laws. And I was like, I was like, that's so interesting that you're so focused on sex because I was like, if I marry a man, I was like, I can have sex before marriage. Like, I don't have to, I don't have to get married to have sex with them. If I'm getting married to them, it's because I want to share my life with them. And I want to build something, like, see them reach their dreams and to feel seen by someone, have someone to talk about. talk to and companionship.

I was like, it's so interesting to me that you are so focused on sex with marriage. Because that's not, that's not the, that's one of the last things on my mind when I'm thinking of marrying a guy. And he was really taken back by that. But I thought it was so interesting as a church leader, there is so much emphasis on the obsession with the sex behind being, being alive even. And it's like, yeah, I know we procreate. It's a natural feeling.

but we villainize it so much and we fear it so much to the point that we don't properly understand it and take proper care and responsibility with with sex it's interesting i've had a lot of the same struggles in my faith and the behi faith where there is a lot of kind of focus on premarital sex where you're supposed to have sex after marriage and marriage is supposed to be for a man and a woman there's very little about homosexuality written in the behi faith and the Baha'i faith doesn't have a concept of like hell. So there isn't kind of like, oh, gays are going to burn in hell or anything like that. That's not at all.

These are like spiritual guidelines to follow. But, you know, it's something, it's something I struggle with having come up in the theater and having so many gay friends. It's definitely a struggle. But for me, I feel like in my faith, there's so much I love about it. If I love 98% of this faith, you know, what do I do with these teachings that I really I'm up against a wall about? And, but it's, you know, it's a struggle.

It's a dialogue in my faith. And it's trying to understand really what is the nature of sexuality itself. And I think we live in a time where sexuality was so kind of buried and vilified for so long and then it kind of burst out in the 60s you know over the last 50 years and there's so much focus and emphasis on human sexuality as part of our identity and it certainly is an important part of our identity but you know what there's a bigger part of our identity and i think that's what jesus was at we are we are all spiritual beings we're all trying to make the world a better place we're trying to improve ourselves there's a lot of work to do there's a lot of union

to build. There's a lot of healing that needs to happen to our planet and to the animals on the planet. There's issues around education, around healthcare, around agriculture that we need to work on. There's education. You know, we need to be bringing people together. And these are just, I think, far more important than all of this focus on. It's like it let people express and honor the sexuality that they want to express an honor and let's move forward as a species and just get over this crotch Christianity. Yeah. I think I think that's part of the problem too is like it's not just Christianity. I feel like it's several different types of cultures and society and religions as well. Crotch religiosity. Yeah. Their obsession also with the LGBT Q Plus's sexual activities

has made it like where people are like, I feel like it's put over emphasis on it where it's like the being part of the LGBTQ plus community is not all about sex. That's what my church leader was so surprised about when I was just like, oh, I was surprised. I'm like, I'm surprised at how focus you are on the sexual aspect of my relationship with a guy

because yeah, it's a part of it. But I'm not like always, it's not, maybe there will be moments where there is sex, but like, that's not, there's like a time in place for that. One of the things that came out in the book is that you needed to find your voice and that this identity is part of your voice. Literally, your singing voice and your voice as a human being. It's not so much about, again, where you put your dick. Like, it's about, I'm not even like looking to put my dick somewhere all the time. You know, it's like, it's not really something I'm wanting a lot of time.

It's like, it's, I'm like, what's wrong with you? Well, apparently, I guess I'm on like what people say like is demisexual or like a little more like on the asexual. It's like you're not always, this is not always a priority. It's not always. Yeah, I had to look that up. I thought that was normal. I had to look that up demisexual. And I thought it was great.

It was like you want to be sexual with someone that you get to know and are intimate with. And it's, it's just lower down the priority. level. It's more about like real connection with someone, regardless of their gender and that sexuality is further down the line. And I think that is as it should be. I think that's, I think that's beautiful. And don't get me wrong. It's still a, it's still a part of it. You know, it's still a craving I get, but it's just not. And I think that's something that's important. It's the hypersexualization. Like, we're so, like, there's so much emphasis on putting. onto it and like villainizing the queer community for it. It's like, well, if you're gay,

it must mean you're putting your dick somewhere you're not supposed to. Like, or like your butt holes being used in a way you shouldn't be, or I don't know. It's, but it's like, okay, I'm not spending all my time doing that. Like, if there's like a special moment where I want to feel intimate with someone, there's like a time and place for it. But most of the time, I just want to connect with someone. Like, I want to hold their hand. I want to kiss them. I want there. There are other parts of intimacy that make it a whole beautiful experience. And I think there is such a focus and emphasis on an obsession with it too. I think because people are like, well, you're supposed to procreate. Sex is used to create life. And it's like, you know what,

there's different roles in a community that can be done. There are parents, there are children, there are aunts and their uncles. There's like a, like in a church community, for example, There's like a church leader, a pastor, a bishop that can overlook a congregation. And there are people who are queer. Like, their main role may not be the one to procreate and have seven children, you know. Mormons are known for big families, having five, six, seven, nine, ten children even sometimes. But there are also roles where you just kind of look out, you provide and look out for each other. Like one of my friends are saying, yeah, there's a gay guy in my Catholic church and he's the one who would make the curtain.

Like he would he would do the design and the decor- See have the gay Christians and LDS do all the designing. Right. And then people maybe would go to church more. Right. Because I think they could actually use a little bit of touch of that. It's like queer eye for the church guy. The for the church guy.

Yeah. If you stop obsessing over the sexual aspect of it, it'll make, it'll help like queer people to not be so activated and thinking and obsessing over like, or should I so caught up in that part of themselves as well? Because, yeah, it's a part of it. It's a part of all of us, this sexual aspect. It's a beautiful part of it.

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When Westchap first took flight in 1996, the vibes were a bit different. People thought denim on denim was peak fashion, inline skates were everywhere, and two out of three women rocked, the Rachel. While those things stayed in the 90s, one thing that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you get when WestJet welcomes you on board. Here's to Westjetting since 96. Travel back in time with us and actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years. But it's not just in the queer community. I mean, come on.

It's like look at TikTok videos, look at advertising, look at so many pop stars, like leading with sex. And I'm not trying to be like prude about it, but sometimes it just feels like, Oh my God, with the sex like America, slow down. Like you can make great content and art and music. And you can honor and love sexuality, but it doesn't have to be the be all and end all. There's just too much junk in my face. Yeah, I guess I don't know what we're going to end up.

I'm not opposed to sensuality. Like, I like feeling comfortable in my body. But for me, it's like, I'm not like, like when I'm feeling like I'll perform I'll take my shirt off and stuff because I like I feel good in my body it's but it's like I'm not thinking about sex when I'm doing it like I'm not trying to get people to want to have sex with me like I and I don't think it has to be about that but I think there is like this constant like there's such a hyper fixation on it where it's like I're making people think my shirt off I will just absolutely take my shirt off you should and I will podcast the fuck out of this podcast. Topless. But it's like the point of like, I think there's such a hyper fixation with, is this sexual or is it not,

that it makes people sexualize everything. Yeah. Their obsession with, oh, that shit, that's too sexual. You're showing too much ankle. Like that's turning, going to turn somebody on.

Like you hyperfixate on it so much, trying to, to police everything, that it makes everything more sexual than necessary. And it makes everyone else. thinking about it more than they need to. Like, for example, like breast, like, oh, my gosh, she's showing too much of her cleavage where it's like you hyperfixate on whether someone's showing too much of their, their cleavage

or not that it makes it so sexual. When you go to some of these parts of the world, like, even in Europe, like, if someone starts breastfeeding their baby, like, no one thinks twice about it. Or, like, there are certain cultures where women don't wear shirts. They're topless. They don't even wear bras, but people don't sexualize it. because they're not hyper fixated on it. They're not obsessing over it where it's like too much of your boob is showing.

It's going to turn somebody on and that's bad. They don't even, it's gotten to a point where it's, I think we just, there's probably a time and place where it could be sexy. I think we have too much. I think this humanity has too much time on its hands right now, frankly. And I just feel like that's part of it is like as the world continues to kind of unravel and these systems break down, unfortunately,

I wish it wasn't the case, but I think that people ultimately are going to be turning their attention on how do we make the world a better place and how do we uplift other people and just let's stop focusing so much on sex, on both sides of the spectrum, of beings a prudish, you know, puritan about it and on making it the be all and end all of someone's identity. I believe that we have a spiritual identity. And this is what all of the faith traditions talk about. We are spiritual beings having a human experience. We are souls. Souls don't have gender. And we're here to feed our souls, nurture our souls, care for the souls of one another.

And there's a lot of work to do. I think we have a lot of stuff in common, which is we've done a hell a lot of therapy. And I've done EMDR. You talk about EMDR in here for trauma and is very powerful. You mentioned OCD once in an interview, and I've recently been struggling with OCD over this last year, year and a half. And part of it was around scrupulosity. And it's a fascinating facet of OCD that I have struggled with a little bit called moral scrupulosity, where you're kind of like, your brain is like, wait, is what I did moral or immoral, right or wrong? am I going to be judged or forgiven for it?

And it kind of gets in a thought loop. And I've experienced some of that. That's part of what my kind of OCD experience has been, replaying like past events. I'm talking like 20, 30 years ago and, and, you know, fear of future events. And it's nonsensical. And yet it can really stick in my brain at times. have you had any experience there with that? Yeah, I mean, it's, I think it got to a point where I was like counting.

I was like, I have to pray over my food, every meal, which like, it seems like a nice thing, but it gets a point where it's like, oh my gosh, I'm going to get in trouble if I don't do these things. And any sexual thought at all, like if I got aroused, if I got like a bone or anything, Oh my God, my thoughts are not in the right place. I didn't realize that your body sometimes will just naturally do that. Like blood flow, like it doesn't have anything to do with what you're thinking. But I thought this is a sign that I'm thinking something I'm not supposed to. I had so many embarrassing boners when I was 13.

It's not even funny. I didn't even know boners were a thing when I was 13 until like my aunt pulled me aside. And she had like two older, my two older sons. And she's like, oh, yeah. It's like there's such thing as like boners. and wet dreams and that's part of like puberty. And I was, I think 15 at the time. I was like, why did I not know about it?

And no one, no one had talked to you about that. No one had talked to me about that. Same with me. Yeah, no one. So you think something's wrong with you and you start like freaking out because you hear like little bips and blurbs in church, but they're always demonizing anything that has. And it's like you realize that they're also like these people who are teaching you

about sexuality are well meaning, but they don't know. So that was a lot of mine. when I was doing my EMDR, the word that constantly was coming up was dirty. I'm dirty, I'm dirty. That's what I was obsessed with was I'm a dirty human being. I have a dirty soul. And my obsession was trying to find a way to become clean. But I also had the belief that I never would become clean and that I can never become pure because I was fixated on whatever I was.

But I was going to church, you know, everywhere. week, I would stay, sometimes I would go from one church and find a later congregation to go to immediately after. So I was spending like six, seven hours. I was just like, I need to be in a clean environment because I'm so dirty. And what ages are we talking about here? Is this a long time? This is age, I think it really picked up from age 19 till age 30. This was my stretch of. Was this ever diagnosed as OCD or is kind of? It was not diagnosed because the therapist, I was was meeting with was out of state. And she said, I cannot, I cannot like officially diagnose you because you were, I was living in Tennessee at the time and she was in Utah. And she's like,

but I really feel like you shouldn't meet with, but I didn't trust at the time. I didn't trust anyone outside of my church enough that I was like, if I meet with another therapist, they might try to teach me some woo-woo and voodoo, superstitions that go against my beliefs. So I only trusted speaking to her in Utah because she was of the Mormon faith, of a Latter-day Saint therapist. And so it was just that kind of stuff. Like I was very, very like, I can't trust the world. It's got to be in my beliefs.

And how is your mental health now and how has it shifted since you've left the church? My goodness. It is like so, it's like an exhale. Like you feel like you can just relax. You can sit back in your chair. Whereas before it's like, you feel like you're constantly on alert, like you feel like your survival instinct is always on.

Or you've got to like, I've got to smile this way. I've got to hold myself this way. I just, I feel like I'm not so much in my head. I still am, but not nearly as much as much much as I used to, which is just, just feels like a much easier way to live your life and not feel like, oh my gosh, like, is my salvation at stake? I think I was a little too obsessed with it before. Like some Mormons can't get like that, but I feel like it's it's a range. There's some people who are more obsessed like I was and some people who are a lot more relaxed with their beliefs. But I think just the fact that I felt like there was something that I had, I was so afraid

of not ever being able to fix, which was my sexuality. I really became obsessed with it in an unhealthy way. It's funny because when you mentioned like feeling you're in danger, that's what I've learned about OCD is that when obsessive thoughts start to spin, it goes into an area of your brain that literally lights up the danger part of your brain. So your brain confuses kind of rumination and thought loops with danger, like the same kind of danger as if you're like being attacked by a bear or something like that. So it's the work is to cycle down the thinking in such a way, move it into a different part of your brain so that it's not in this kind of like primal lower brain

animalistic kind of danger zone and I think I'm guessing that's part of kind of what happened with you but I I relate because the moral scrupulosity you know I know that God is loving accepting you know incredibly merciful and compassionate and just wants the best for us but I still And even though it's not in my faith, there's still kind of like a fear of judgment. And, you know, am I doing things right? And I think it was instilled a lot from a traumatic childhood where I spent a lot of time in my head thinking the same thing, having those same thoughts cycle through again and again. And every once in a while, it pops up in my adult life. Well, sounds like you've done a lot of reflection with that.

I've done a lot of work. And yeah, because it's hard to even be aware that your brain is doing that. A lot of us just kind of think that's just how life is and that's what it is and that's what's actually happening when you're able to step back and step outside of your whatever your brain may be doing at the time and be able to recognize like, oh, this is a certain pattern that's happening. There may be certain chemicals that are shooting right now that are alerting me that something's happening even though I don't have to be as. worried as I am. So I think that's great that you're able to, you have, you can, you've done the work. And I, I still struggle. The work continues. I didn't, I didn't think at age 60 I would be dealing with this. Yeah. It's, it's, I think it's also important though to realize that you don't have to fix everything to still enjoy your life and to keep living and to, that you're not always a problem to

fix. Even when you have those things that may be going on and tendencies, your brain may be shooting off signals when it's unnecessary, it doesn't mean that you are a problem to fix. That's really beautiful. That's very well said. Yeah. It's like, no, I have to fix. Because then it's that kind of like the reminder reminds me of like the scrupulosity where it's like, I have to fix myself. I'm so dirty. I've got it. Sometimes it's like, you know what, it's okay that I'm not. There may be like a a couple of squeaky, rusty parts of my machine, but I'm still a functioning machine, all in all. Yeah.

I had this therapist once named Ken, and he would say, I am a mistake-making human, and I'm an unrepeatable miracle of the universe. And I love that, like, how to live. Because one of the things OCD likes, it likes perfection, and it likes certainty. and we can't be perfect and we can never be certain.

We just have to live in the gray. But I love that idea of like, I'm a mistake-making human and I'm an unrepeatable miracle of the universe. How can I live with both of those things true at the same time and the scales going back and forth and just an acceptance and forgiveness and compassion for those two sides of myself? I like that.

Do you ever feel, do you ever deal with that? this where your brain is so worried that something could go wrong that it's trying to constantly prevent the bad things from happening. Even though there's no guarantee the bad things are even going to take place. But your brain's like, but what if? Sometimes if I'm caring about somebody who's coming to visit me, like coming from out of town and I know they're like driving or taking an airplane, I'm like, I constantly am like, what if something happens to their plane? What if weather or what if the car what if they're like sleepy and they get their eyes closed and they get a car accident and then it's my like my brain starts going into these worst case scenario and I can't

relax I can't sleep wrote that's that is half that's no they're okay that's textbook at OCD because what if is an uncertainty like yeah their plane could crash we can't be certain that their plane isn't going to crash. Of course, the chances are like one in a million, but it could happen. And that is where the thought looping, because I have experienced exactly the same thing, that's where the thought looping starts to go into the danger mode of your brain. And then you're activated, right? And it feels really real. It feels like, oh, they really could die. And adrenaline and cortisol is pouring through you. And I'm really glad you brought that out because I think that is there are tools for that and there are there are types of therapy that can help

with that there's one called acet acceptance and commitment therapy that I've found very helpful around that where then the thought comes up acceptance yeah that where the thought comes up oh my god they could die and you're like oh there's that thought I'm having that thought interesting oh what are you doing thought oh you're warning me oh because I love them and you're I'm afraid for them and I don't want anything bad to happen to them. Okay, great. And you just accept the thought, but you're not trying to fix it, debate with it, wrestle with it, you know, engage with it. It's just acceptance, noticing, and curiosity and compassion. I'm going to have to look into that ACT acceptance because I think it's also hard to let things happen when they're not in your

control. Yes. Like, I hate sitting in traffic. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. I unexpected accidents and traffic. And you live in Los Angeles. I know, right? But it's like, I'm just like, oh, like I get so stressed. And I think of like, how can I get out of this? I'm like, I'm going to take an exit. I'm like, but I've found like what I don't know why I feel this need to just get off the freeway when there's, I mean, sometimes it's a good move. But, or if like a fight gets delayed, I just start panicking. I'm just like, what happens if I, what if I miss my fight? And it's like, David, there's. there's a flight tomorrow, like, or there's, it's delayed, but it's like that it activates so much

and I'm like, refused to accept that it's happening. Like, my brain wants to refuse that it's happening. And I think, so it's interesting to hear that there's acceptance. Yeah. What is it? ACT, acceptance commitment therapy. It's a branch of cognitive behavioral therapy. It's very in line with kind of a Buddhist idea of like mindfulness and acceptance of just what is.

and that's when you're on the freeway and that and i because i get sometimes i get claustrophobic and sometimes yes like i'll be on the back of a plane or something like that when i'm not flying first class and whatever and i and i feel like i'm not going to be able to get off this plane and like the acceptance is like just accepting what is there's a lot of people in front of me and we're all together in a crowded space and i've chosen to travel in this way and yes the fear can be real but the thought is not. Have you thought that there's like a fear of settling? I think that's an issue for me as well.

It's like, but what if there is a way out of this? And me settling and accepting this is I'm accepting for, I'm settling for less. When I could have found a way out, I could have found a way forward. Do you see that's kind of a dance with certainty, that you want a certainty that there's a better way and a better path as opposed to accept?

the path that you're on. And that can be a very helpful way of thinking. And it brought you to the top of the music industry, you know? I guess so, yeah. But in some ways, maybe that does hold you back and just create kind of unmanageable anxiety. And it makes relationships, it makes maintaining relationships really difficult as well because you think, but am I settling? Like, am I, is this really all I'm capable of?

You're constantly question yourself. I think settling and accepting is like something I'm afraid of. And same with my career. Like I think it is something that has helped me to keep going. But I think it's also something that does not allow me to appreciate everything I've done. It's like, well, someone else is doing a lot more than I am. And it's like, but like, but Dave, it's like, there are a lot of people who haven't been able to have the opportunities you've had. You know, it's, so instead of always comparing yourself to what more someone else has than you do, it's like how, it'd be great to find a balance. And it's, it's that dance of finding the balance of, you know, challenging yourself when it's, when it's healthy, like healthy challenges to yourself. Right. But not to the point where it's like, I'm never going to be happy and I'm never going to be satisfied. Because when you have this unsatisfiable.

appetite for more, that's where you get greedy. And that's where we find ourselves like in the world we are where it's like, I think sometimes we're conditioned to, you need more. One of the things I brought up in soul boom is, and I love this word from the Sanskrit or the Pali is called Dukha. And the Buddha said life is Dukha. Life is, it's often translated to suffering. But if you look deeper, Dukha means anxious discontent.

And like, we are wired to be anxiously discontent. content with what's in front of us, a relationship, the traffic, our careers. In a lot of ways, that can be very healthy. Like, am I in the best relationship? Maybe I'm not happy and maybe I need to look at something else. Is my career going really the way I wanted it to? Maybe I'm not quite satisfied. I either need to challenge my boss in management or maybe I need to leave or get a different

degree. But anxious discontent, if we allow ourselves to live in it, it can just be. make our lives miserable. And so part of it, and I think this goes with cognitive behavioral therapy and ACT is kind of like recognizing like, oh, I'm in anxious discontent. And as soon as you recognize it, you detach from it just a little bit. You have a step back. Oh, it's like me and my judgmentalism.

Like, Oh, Rain, you're being judgmental. And it's like, oh, I can take a step back, look at it from a few feet away. Like, oh, I'm in anxious discontent. nothing. I'm not happy about anything. I'm not happy about my writing, my relationships, my work. Like, oh, interesting. Get curious about it. Get compassionate about it. And then it's able to kind of like dissipate. I feel like I'm, I feel like you should pay me for a therapy session. I was actually thinking I'm like, I'm benefiting from all your work that you've done on yourself. It sucks, man. I've had to do so much work. But, you know, hopefully this

conversation helps people. But I do think that everything you're describing, I wouldn't, I can't diagnose you with OCD, but there are OCD adjacent behaviors and there are, there are tools that can really, really help with that. So I hope people listening to can relate, you know, and get some help. Because I, as this kind of came up over this last year, year and a half, and there's been a lot of Our house burned down. There are a lot of stressful things that happened to you. But it's forced me to go deeper. And it has also, David, forced me to go deeper with my relationship with my higher power,

where to just be working day in and day out, week in, week out, to really let go of any kind of patriarchal judging God. And to allow in a loving, accepting. compassionate God that wants what's best for the development of my soul. And this is my, this is my path. And it is, it's getting better. And the more I get in touch with that higher power, the more I'm able to bring that energy to my relationships. And I'm hoping that I can become more loving, accepting, allowing compassionate to others as I go on my journey. And that's the great thing about a faith journey is it challenges us and I do think a faith journey and a

psychological journey mental health journey this is why we talk about them on soul boom they go hand in hand and they allow a kind of growth that they work together they're like a yin and yang that is it's interesting because it's like a it's a molding environment that like you may have these tendencies, but it's constantly challenging what your natural tendencies may be. But I think sometimes it's like good. Sometimes it may do it in a way that's not so great because sometimes like, no, sometimes it's okay to have those natural tendencies. Like for example, with my sexuality.

But I think I've also found a way to have, like I found a beautiful relationship with my sexuality, for example, and how it can be spiritual. That was something I had to challenge even. even within I had to challenge the challenging tools that I was given in Mormonism, for example,

because it was challenging whether it was okay for me to be queer. And I had to challenge it back and say, actually, I think I'm okay how I am. But I tried your, I experimented with your tools you gave me and I was able to find a better place

where it's like, actually, I'm okay. with how I am and I want you guys to be able to challenge how difficult that that daily conversation and that internal battle of like clean versus dirty you know like pure as a driven snow or dirty going to hell like that that dichotomy is so not helpful for the human experience because we're all part dirty and we're all part clean exactly and we're just we're just a mess and we're we're We're hypocritical and, you know, we're, you know, we have failings and we have defects and we have wonderful positive aspects of our character.

And this is part of the OCD journey too. If you want perfectionism and certainty, you know what? You're not going to get that in the human experience. So what is it to be a mistake making human who's also an unrepeatable miracle of the universe and to just let that be okay. There's a humility in that that I'm still learning in my fucking 60s, America. I can't believe you're in your 60s.

I look fucking good, right? You do. Right. Yeah. I would not. I'm like, what else do I say? Do you have any kind of prayer or meditation practice currently in your life? I do not have anything that is really big,

but something that I've been trying to do is just breathe. Take a few, like just even a minute of breathing. And that has really helped me when my anxiety kicks in, like whatever it is. I don't understand all the chemical, biological thing that's taking place. But when my brain starts alarming me and saying something is wrong. And it's like, you need to get out of here. You need to run. You need to do something or you need to create a scene.

And I'm just like, okay, there's no reason I, I don't see any reason for me to be feeling this way. And that's where I take a breath. I think it's like literally just reels that I've seen sometimes I pop up on my Instagram. Sure. And it just tells me to take a moment to breathe. Like, it's like you move your jaw to this way and the jaw and like breathe and put your tongue on the roof of your mouth. Yep. And then you'd like breathe in with lifting your shoulders.

Yep. Love that. Have you done this one? As you're breathing, you do the tapping. Yes. And it's like a little bit of EMDR for yourself. And this sends an electric signal between the two hemispheres of your brain, and it just really grounds you.

Yeah. And it's so interesting how, like, when you're so used to living in an anxious or like fight or flight is constantly on, like how it kind of just soothes it. And I was like, whoa, like that is so simple. And yet it worked. That is so weird. Because sometimes you think I have issues.

I need to be, I need it like a year of therapy. And it's like, oh, actually I just needed to calm down. I need to breathe. And sometimes I think we forget to just breathe. And, you know. I wrote a song about that actually. Just breathe. Yeah.

Just breathe. Just breathe. That's just, yeah, it's just, it's like a moment. And speaking of your angelic voice, have you had spiritual experiences while making music? Part of the soul boom thesis is that the expression of art and creativity is a spiritual impulse the same as prayer. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I feel like music is meditation. It can be meditation a lot of it. And it can just be like chords that are just elongated out. It hits a part of your body. And you start feeling, it makes you aware of parts of your body that you may be out of touch with because you feel the vibrations hitting like higher frequencies will hit higher in your body. Lower frequencies will hit more in your gut. And it like loosens things up that you may be holding on to. So music's powerful. Even just a beat.

Like I'll like go to EDM concerts. And when I hear just the, it's a repetitive rhythm that allows the all the voices in my head to be silenced. It helps me to just like concentrate and focus in on the one rhythm or the repetitive, repetitive melody or or beat that's going on for an hour or two. And it's just like it is a form of meditation. You just feel kind of recent. Have you ever had a spiritual experience while singing, performing? Oh, like all the time. Yeah.

What does that feel like? How would you describe that? What has happened? You feel like connected to something bigger than you. Like you feel, you feel like grounded and opened at the same time is how I feel. And you feel like a channel. Like you feel like something's moving through you. And by opening your mouth and allowing the.

the note, whatever note you choose, it becomes a channel to whatever. I don't even know what it is. Like, you know, when I was religious, it was God. I was like, this is God. And maybe it is. Like, it's not the same idea of God I had before, but it's still, I look at God. Before, like, God was like a white man with a beard who wore robes and I don't look at God that way anymore.

It was like too specific. It was too restricting of what I now see, like, God is more than that. that channel of whether it's God or the universe or just energy, life itself flowing through you, and you choose a note and you put it in a microphone and you send it to an audience and they get to experience it with you. And you see sometimes it moves people where they're crying or they're just reflecting. Memories bring, like they're sometimes childhood memories come back to them. And they're just like, this reminded me of this moment that I, I don't know how it was.

works that way, but it does. Couldn't it be the power of the Holy Spirit? As you're saying that, like, I think maybe not God, but just that, that connective spirit tissue that binds all things, nature and beauty and love. And I can totally picture that. I've had that experience at concerts. It's beautiful. It's a way of connecting. And I think for me, that's what God is, is connection. So to be able to use music and to connect, you can connect like 10 people. 100 people, 100,000 people, however many people, everyone gets on the same wavelength, and it's so beautiful. And it's just a community experience. It's a oneness. It's a unity. And for me, that is God. I don't know how it works, but it's a beautiful thing to be able to

provide or to experience with, along with everybody, to kind of be like a facilitator. And sometimes you're like, I don't even know what's going on, but this is, this is amazing. This is beautiful. And let's not forget that you have a God-given gift of this incredible voice, then you are able to do that. That is a special, unrepeatable miracle of the universe that you bring with your voice. And every time you open your mouth, you know, to channel that spirit, like that is a holy act. That is a sacred task and obligation. You uplift and move and resonate people and evoke memories and build connect. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, it's like I spent so much time thinking something was wrong with me. And

you get to a point where you realize, you know, something about me and my spirit, my soul, my makeup as a human is different maybe from, and it may affect even like, you know, I have a soul and it may be queer, but it's also musical. It's, it's mindful. I think it's empathetic. And whatever all that is makes me up to be the artistic person I am. And I think I'm learning to value that. But it's like, instead of letting one thing define you, it's like, it's like everything that makes me up what I am is a good thing. Yeah. And I think that's something to value. And whatever it is allows me to connect with people the way I do. Yeah. And I think that's beautiful. I love how I'm able to connect with people. So two things, number one, we ask every guest their definition of the word soul.

It's a tricky one. Want to give it a stab? For me, the soul is, it's like this, it's energy. It is, it's comprises of your electricity, the chemicals in your body, the electricity, the electricity running through it. and the flesh of it even like the everything this it's like the senses that allows you to take in what is around you whether that is like obvious things like i can touch this table i can feel my skin um i can feel the air hitting my face i can hear the sounds like all of that comprises it adds to what is in my soul but it's also like the outside

output, like what I'm saying, like, people can feel like that energetic force field around you and they can interact with it. And sometimes they can take advantage of it. Sometimes they can commune with it as well. Or it's like the voice, it's the sound I'm putting out when I'm singing. It's the vibrations. It's the tones that then hits other people. And I feel like I don't know exactly what my soul is, but I know that it is like this thing that

it's like a little, it's like a little miniature universe that is, or solar system, yeah, universe. It's like this, it's so intricate. There's so much to it. But as it like communes with other people's souls and their little miniature universes, there can be beautiful things that can happen. Sometimes it can be messy. There can be collisions. It's like galaxies that they collide.

But, you know, it's something that gives and takes. And it's a beautiful thing. And whether it's messy or there's organization in it, it's what I am. You know, it's, I don't really know. You win the award for most intricate definition. Really? Wide-ranging universes and skin. I love it, though.

I really do. And I really truly mean that. And my last request is I would like you to serenade me with the song I will always love you by Dolly Parton. Dolly Parton? Whitney. Yeah, I'm like, can I do the Whitney version? Sure.

I love both versions. Man, I haven't sung that song a long time. If I should stay, I would only be in your way. So I'll go, but I know, I'll think of you every step of the way. And I love you. That was incredible. I love that you can just on a dime, just bring that out. That was amazing.

Thank you. That was amazing. That was so beautiful. Thank you. I've never been serenated on that we've done over 100 episodes on Soul Boom I've never been serenated before Oh my goodness

And I will always love you, David. Thank you. Soul Boom is also on Spotify video. If you've got Spotify Premium, you can enjoy it free of Spotify ads. If you don't, you'll get even less ads if you hit subscribe to Soul Boom. Also enjoy on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Pandora,

or wherever else you get your stupid podcasts.