Soul Boom - Does Happiness Last? Kelly Corrigan Wonders

Episode Date: June 5, 2025

Kelly Corrigan (NYT bestselling author, PBS host) joins Rainn Wilson for an illuminating conversation on fear, moods, creativity, and the wisdom found in wonder. Kelly shares her experience with cancer, raising daughters, her evolving beliefs about God, and how staying in someone’s home reveals more about life than any philosophy book. THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS! 🐶 Ollie (60% OFF!) 👉 Take the online quiz and introduce Ollie to your pet. Visit https://www.ollie.com/soulboom today for 60% OFF your first box of meals! #ToKnowThemIsToLoveThem BRAGG (20% OFF! CODE: SOULBOOM) 👉 ⁠⁠https://www.bragg.com⁠ Masterclass (at least 15% OFF!) 👉 ⁠https://www.masterclass.com/soulboom⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⏯️ SUBSCRIBE!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠👕 MERCH OUT NOW! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠📩 SUBSTACK!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  FOLLOW US! 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram: http://instagram.com/soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 👉 TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://tiktok.com/@soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  CONTACT US! Sponsor Soul Boom: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Work with Soul Boom: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Send Fan Creations, Questions, Comments: ⁠[e-mail]⁠  Executive Produced by: Kartik Chainani Executive Produced by: Ford Bowers, Samah Tokmachi Companion Arts Production Supervisor: Mike O'Brien Theme Music by: Marcos Moscat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You're listening to soul. I think we are really misunderstanding moods. So happiness is not a good mood? The idea that you should never be in this set of moods and you should only strive for this little tiny, like, target of moods is so problematic. Because then every time you're in one of these moods, you think there's something wrong with you. It's like, but those moods are part of it. This is the full human experience.

You're going to be in all the moods. All the moods. are coming. Hey there, it's me, Rain Wilson, and I want to dig into the human experience. I want to have conversations about a spiritual revolution. Let's get deep with our favorite thinkers, friends, and entertainers about life, meaning, and idiocy. Welcome to the Soul Boom podcast. Do you think all people are creative? I do. And I think that lots of people who work with three and four-year-olds would say the same. So that's really what I'm borrowing their point of view, because I don't have enough experience to answer the question with any gravitas.

But if you talk to preschool teachers and elementary school teachers, they will say, every kid has an idea. Every kid wants to do things. I think what happened is that creativity sort of conjures a very narrow set of activities in most minds. And I'm talking about, like Claire is a computer science major. So writing code, she considers to be a creative act. Woodworking is a creative act. robotics is a creative act, making up a game for the schoolyard with like its own set of weird

rules and like how many outs you get and whatever. That is a hugely creative act. So I think sometimes when you say the words making and creativity, people picture like a Renaissance fair or finger painting. And that's, that doesn't include music. That doesn't include all kinds of engineering work. But what would you say? Because people use this word a lot, like I'm a creative and like, does that mean that there are people that are not a creative? I mean, I've certainly met some, like, pretty uptight engineers and accountants before, but does that mean that they're not a creative? I think that you could be a non-practicing.

I think you could, I think that all three-year-olds are creative by nature. Like, you dance before you walk, you sing before you talk. Like, it's the way we come in to me. So does creativity kind of get smushed out of us a little bit? And teachers are like, you're really? good at math and science and you wear a plastic pocket pen protector. So you are not a creative. We're going to let little Johnny who sings and dances in the corner, let him be creative and you're the accountant. And we silo our jobs too much. Yes. Yes. And it's so unfortunate because the sort of

spirit of making is so energizing. Like it's such a generative act rather than an act. of controlling or tamping down or reducing. You know, it's like a very expansive thing. And that kind of thinking, like expansive thinking, thinking where like there are no bad ideas, where you're sort of intellectually hospitable to many different outcomes and avenues and processes is a pretty good mindset to take into the world.

I look at it a little bit from a spirit. perspective. There's lots of different ways to look at creativity. We were talking about that amazing book. This is your brain on art. Yes. And the science and the study of the brain and how it works when it's creating is fascinating and really inspiring. Yeah. Wonderful book. Very validating. Validating. Yeah. Yeah. But I also think about it in spiritual terms where, you know, the divine source, the, you know, the essence of all things that was, you know, inspired the Big Bang, that there was nothing and then there was, you know, billions of galaxies and billions of stars in those galaxies and billions and trillions of planets within those galaxies and each planet

has its own wonders. And, but even that's a very broad way of looking at it. Even just looking at like a leaf or a snow, have you ever really looked at? I mean, the other day I was kind of tripping out looking at leave. I was like, what the fuck? This tree made this leaf and it's doing photosynthesis and is gathering sunlight. And what it's doing is like, it's like a little, mini green solar panel and it's taking the sun's juice

and putting it down in the roots. And then it's being shared with the mycennial network and, you know, spreading like, it's a freaking miracle. And so there is so much creativity in kind of the stuff of life. Everywhere you look, it really goes back to your tea bag. What's the tea bag say again? Vincent Van Gogh says, if you truly love nature, you will find beauty everywhere. I think he means like in a twig or a barren field or, yeah, in a mountain.

I don't think he was talking about strip malls. So interestingly, per your brain on art, this book that we both love, there's this big move they make. So they first talking about the value and the benefits to serotonin dopamine, norapherin, lowering cortisol. Nora Ephron? Noraphron. Yeah, who came before Nora Effron. My mom used to read a book by Nora Ephron called The Grass is Always Greener over the septic tank. No, that's Irma Bombbeck, baby.

How do you know that? Because I love both of them. I love both those people. I think you're right. I think you're right. Yeah. Those are funny women from the 70s. It was about my neck, which I didn't understand until I started to feel bad about my neck.

And then I was like, where is that damn book? I got to find that. Your neck is great. Thank you. Thank you very much. I'm glad we're talking about it. But anyway, this thing I wanted to point out that Susan Magsman and Ivy Ross, who wrote Brain on Art, share, is that all of the physiological benefits that making art,

offers are also on offer when we behold. And when you're looking at your leaf and just falling into all the implications and consequences of this miraculous little thing in your hands, you are triggering all that good stuff. Like your little internal pharmacy is just giving you like a bolus of serotonin and dopamine and noraphrin and noraphron. And Nora Ephron. And Normabomabombo.

Your podcast is called Kelly Corrigan Wonders, and you're talking about beholding, and there's a connection between beholding, wondering, and awe, which I think is a center point between those who are semi-spiritual but not religious, as I would qualify you, and those people of faith, that it's a unifying point. Wonder, curiosity, beholding, and awe. What are your thoughts? You've been in the wondering game for a super long time. So it's my favorite emotion and like that your leaf.

Is it an emotion, wonder? It's like a flooding. I don't know if I would call it an emotion as much as like a psychological state. Hey, what are you feeling right now? Wonder. Yeah. I think it can be an emotion. I like all the ways that you can use that word.

Like a person is a wonder. I like wondering. Yeah. I like the state of one. Do you remember the sitcom Small Wonder? No. Okay. You're going to need to look that up because Small Wonder is about a little girl robot who moves in with a typical 80s sitcom family.

Uh-huh. Look it up, America. You're welcome. It's something. Okay. To behold. Yeah. There you go.

Boom. Soul. Boom. Tell me about this. state of wonder, curiosity, awe, and beholding that you have. So this friend of mine, Ariel, is a therapist, and I used to walk with her every Tuesday. Our kids were friends growing up in Northern California, and she set this thing up for me in my mind, which was that on one end of your emotional spectrum is judgment, and on the other end

is curiosity. And that when you're over in judgment, then you're sort of like an open field for fear, because you've decided that something's going to happen. And then if, if you decide that the wrong thing's going to happen, then you're sort of, like, paralyzed in the state of fear. And so if you want to work your way out of it, fear sometimes known as anxiety these days, if you want to work your way out of that state, come over all the way over to the other end of the spectrum. I mean, it's like almost like I could walk there in my mind. Like, oh, forgot. I slid over. Like, I got to get over to this side and reacquaint yourself with curiosity.

And then inside curiosity is this state of wonder. That is so amazing. I haven't heard this axis before between judgment and wonder. Yeah. And it makes me think about when we're recording this in March of 2025, where everything is about fear and judgment.

Everything going on in the world right now is about fear and judgment. There is so little wonder. There's no wonder. No wonder, there's no wonder. But people sitting down with each other and what can we learn from each other. Certainly in our political system, but in the way that our toxic partisan political system has created this rift in America

between these two very different realities, two very different ways of seeing the world. But we don't have, we've really that go of wonder. We've lost track of wonder as a bomb. for the fear and judgment that is just corroding America right now. Yeah. I mean, I think conviction addiction is a real thing. Wow.

It's constantly being reinforced, you know, a lot in cable news where everybody has such a strong opinion. And then throughout a presidential election, like nobody says, I'm not really sure about that. Yeah. I'd probably have to do some reading. I probably have to talk to some people before I came up with a point of view about charter schools in Louisiana.

Like, that's like an amazing suggestion that we would be able to speak at all times with full conviction on like 10,000 different topics. Yeah. And then what happens with conviction addiction, in my opinion is it's very energizing. Like, righteousness is very energizing. Being in a state of full judgment is like, feels like this. An outrage. We've talked about a lot on the show as a fuel. Feeling unsure feels like this.

And this isn't that fun. I mean, it's just a totally different posture. It's a totally different tone of voice. It's a totally different set of expressions. It's probably like if you plugged us all in and studied every kind of drip that's happening in those moments of curiosity, it's probably like a whole different set of neurochemical bubble bath, if you will. So I think it must be, I like to blame evolution when possible.

And I think it must be that old evolution that we've so outgrown, where it's like in-group, out-group, friend, foe, prey, predator. And so it's really behooved us to come to a position of conviction about another being very quickly. But now it would behoove us to be asking more questions and making fewer statements. Isn't it also kind of seen as strength and leadership? Totally. With floppers and.

Yeah. Sureity is seen as strength. It's such a turnoff thing. Conviction is seen as strength. And vulnerability considering both sides is seeing as milk toast, Mamby, Pambi. It's the biggest way that my inner personal preferences have changed over my lifetime. Like when I was young, when I was in my turn, 20s and even into my 30s, I was really drawn to people who were sure.

Yeah. And I liked the feeling myself. And so I projected certainty. And what were you certain about in your 20s? Was it like politics and or? Well, I was kind of righteous, to be honest. I worked for United Way out of college and I was big, save the world kind of person. and I had a very limited point of view.

I was not super informed about, you know, like all the parts and pieces of society that have to work together to net out to a place that we would want to live. So in my childish POV, I was sort of feeling like anyone who wasn't in nonprofit work was kind of like scummy and grabby

and like just wanted to. Yeah. you know, have all the things. And I was, I was into it. Like, you know, it's sort of dangerous that feeling. Like, when you feel that you're clinging to an identity too much, you're probably be like a thing, like something to consider, something to have a conversation with yourself about.

Because this is like a little too much a part of you now that I am a non-profit person. Right. And maybe there needs to be a little bit more wonder. Totally. How can we increase? But now I can't stand people who are dead sure of everything. I find them so tedious. Yeah.

And I find them suspicious. So interestingly, we had started this conversation with listeners of Kelly Corrigan wonders where we ask people to share with us a way that they contradict themselves. And my whole sort of secret goal was to remind people that you too are hypocritical. I too am hypocritical. So I'm into like giving money away. into wallpaper. Do you know what a waste wallpaper is? But I love it. I cannot look at this wallpaper. Like it's killing me. I'm there for this. So I wanted everybody else to share theirs

so that we, if only so that we could approach each other and not be so like flipping and turn our nose up at the person who seems to disagree so violently with them. themselves on these big important positions. And the one that got me crazy was being pro-life and pro-death penalty. Like I was like, I got to understand this. This is like making me bananas. And so anyway, I put that out there and all these people wrote in. It was probably one of the most responded to. Oh, I love that. Can I steal it for our soul boom audience? Totally. Totally. So people were like, I'm really a pacifist and I really don't think war is the answer. And I have a son in the Marines, and I'm so proud of him. Right. Like, that's a heavy place of contradiction.

Can I share one of mine? Yeah. There's many of mine. One is that I far prefer watching television than reading books. And I have all these books here and I talk to authors and I have read a lot of books. Yes. But I have my iPad and I have like 12 books that I'm like, because it gives you the percentage of how much you've read. I have like 12 books that I've read like between 17 and 32% of. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And like finishing books. Yes. I'm not a finisher. If I don't like it. I kind of like, I kind of get it. You kind of get it. You read the first third of a book. You're like, I get it. Especially non-fiction. Especially I get it. Because I'm mostly in the non-fiction realm. But that I'll put that aside. But I also work in climate change. And I really rely on Amazon one-click buying.

I bought mouth. the other day by going like this on my phone. And the next day it was there in a box with a little piece of plastic wrapped, bubble plastic wrapped around the mouthwash. Yeah. And I'm Mr. Climate Change guy. Right.

But what am I supposed to do? I guess I'm supposed to get in my electric car, which I do have, and drive down the road and go to a CVS, which is this mammoth conglomerate that, you know, it's not like this, I need to find a mom and pop a drugstore that has this specific kind of mouthwash that I want, which I doubt that it has. It probably has like scope and listerine,

but I want scope and listerine. Because they're also part of monster conglomerates. Yeah, because they're owned by like Procter & Gamble or something like that. So you're just leaving the simple, righteous position, the child, I think, as a childish position, and acknowledging that like, so here's one way. to get the mouthwash. Here's another way to get the mouthwash. And here's another way to get the mouthwash.

And these are the consequences and implications of all three of those paths. And to be a grown-up, to be a thinking adult, is to embrace the complexity of any given solution. And this staying over here in like simple land,

I mean, you could be 18 years old. Yeah. Yeah, I feel that way about, so many topics, I feel that way about Gaza and Israel. I kind of like go back and, forth on it and see both sides. I, you know, I see that on so many different issues. Why people vote for a given candidate. Like, I can't tell you how many simplified statements I have

heard about why Trump got elected. And it's like, that's crazy. That is crazy. There's not one answer. It's tens of millions of people. They are not coming to the, just like the tens of millions of people who voted for Kamala are not showing up for the same reason. Like, come on, come on. Yeah. So anyway, yeah, I feel like I love wondering. I love people who wonder. And I do feel that wow begets wow, which is to say like you stopping to enjoy that leaf

and like letting your mind wander for, you know, 60 seconds, 90 seconds. I mean, we're not talking about like a major time commitment here. Oh, so like 137 seconds. 137 seconds. I mean, that you, you'll do it again. And this is why, to tie it all together, Rain Wilson, this is why I think making across a huge spectrum of venues, if you will, is so powerful because I think it begets wonder.

So when you make a loaf of bread or you try to, to carpenter this table or you try to fix that light or you try to cut that hair or you try to fix your glasses or make your own tea. Anytime you're deconstructing and reconstructing the physical world, you are developing this sort of worldview of wow because it is kind of amazing. Like, for instance, if you were to try to make this table, like, what's the right wood for it? How much will it shrink or swell in different temperatures? This room is very cold, so maybe this is a really tight wood. How, what are the tools that are used to make this?

What made these little dips in it? Like, the more you engage while making, the better every loaf of bread will taste, the cooler. Every table you ever sit at will look. like because you know what went into it. Like I'll never look at clothes the same way because I tried to sew a suit. I tried to sew an outfit to wear to a wedding, which I did, which was a total mistake.

But trying to sew like a jacket. Are there photos of you in this handmade suit? It was pre- iPhones, so there aren't photos. Okay. Oh, God, it was so bad. Here's just a little side note for anyone who's tried to sew anything before. I open it.

A pattern is a very complicated thing. First you spread it all out and has all these wrinkles in it and then you have to cut it and then you have to pin it to the material and you got to get the nap right. You know, like material works in a certain way so that it, you know, drapes properly. And you have to buy the kind of fabric, the thickness of fabric that's recommended. But I'm a person who doesn't follow instructions very long. So I was the kid who like started doing the test before they said, here are the instructions now you may begin.

You know, I was just answering it. And so I kind of like felt like once I started to unpack the pattern, I was like, I kind of get this. Like, I don't think this can be that hard. And I don't think I want like the vent in the back. So in a skirt, there's a vents and there's a reason for a vent. I thought it was a sort of look and feel kind of thing. But there's a very functional reason why skirts have vents, which is that you can walk in

them, you know, because you're a reason. your legs need to be able to spread apart and cross each other as you're stepping. But I kind of deleted the vent in my skirt and then I got to the day. And my steps were like, like I couldn't, I couldn't walk. My steps were like two inches and then another two inches and another two inches. Right. Because I thought it looked better that way. So, you know, but now I appreciate like just looking at your shirt. Like, that's so hard to make what you're sitting in. And I know that because I try. I know I made this shirt. Yeah. So. Have you ever sewn anything? Fuck no. But I do remember that when I was a kid at the Lake Forest Park Mall in Lake Forest Park, Washington, it was a whole store of sewing

notions and stuff. It was like sewing stuff and sewing machines, but all these patterns and bolts of cloth. Totally. And I would just go wander in there sometimes because we would go down to the mall to just kill some time. Yeah. And I would wander around in this. It was so alien to me, this store, but it was filled with the women of the area. Yeah. Buying patterns and muslin. And, you know, I don't know that that exists so much anymore. Yeah. I mean, I just bought my daughter, Claire, a sewing machine last summer. And I wouldn't even know how to turn on a sillier. It is so fun. I mean, I wish we could sew together right now. You'd love it. It's very addictive. I'm not gonna love it. That's not gonna happen. Have you ever thrown a pot? I just threw a pot the other day. I have

thrown pots. I love pottery. It's so cool. And doesn't that make you look at all pots everywhere differently? Totally. Yeah. So that's the point. Yeah. You're like, oh, is that machine made or handmade? Yeah. And then if it is handmade, it's like a wonder. It is a wonder. When people make a big, huge bowl, that's so hard to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You've, asked yourself a ton of big questions on your show. What's a question you return to again and again because you haven't cracked it yet? I mean, a question I asked myself a lot is, what are you afraid of? So, like, for instance, I'm working on a book right now, and I keep, like, breaking my momentum. I keep pausing. And for a while, I just came up with all the excuses, like, oh, I have to go to California and I'm going to

talk to rain and then we're going to go up to the East Bay and see our old buddies and do a little book event for Marian and whatever. And I tell myself a little story about why I'm not doing it. And then sometimes if I'm maybe around four in the morning, which is a real common moment for me to have a conversation with myself, I say, what are you afraid of? Why aren't you doing it? It's not that much time. Like when I'm on a roll, like I can write fast. So what are you afraid of? And that has yielded. That question over the years has yielded. Or when I'm meddling in one of my kids' lives, which I find to be a thing that I can't

totally control, I think, what are you afraid of? I think this is driven by fear, so what are you afraid of? That's such a great question. I think one can learn so much by stopping and at four in the morning saying, what are you afraid of? It's so funny to me, it's sort of a new thing, like maybe in the last couple years, I'm 57, that where I'm less afraid to have a conversation with myself. Like, all those years, I could have been asking myself that, and I didn't.

And then it's sort of like, well, what were you afraid of then? Like, why weren't you asking yourself? Why were you afraid of asking yourself? What are you afraid of? Right? That's weird. We'd love to hear your comments down below. Yeah.

About what you're afraid of. Admit it. Admit it. And why have you been afraid of asking yourself the question, whatever you're afraid of? Love to hear from you, by the way. Yeah. Handy link. You know one thing I'm always afraid of, and I wonder if you are.

Okay. Is banality. Mm-hmm. Like, we do similar things. I mean, I wasn't, I'm not an actress, but we write books and we have conversations with people for podcasts. Yeah. And there's so many books. there's so many podcasts. And sometimes my four in the morning conversation, what it yields is I'm

afraid of saying things that are already being said. I'm afraid of just being another person who's enjoying the sound of my own voice and thinks you should listen to me instead of that person or that person. And like, do we all need to be talking? Does everyone, does everyone need to write a book? Like, there's a great New Yorker. There needs to be seven billion podcasts. Yeah. They are just about. I mean, honestly, I keep seeing more and more every day. I think, God, how can you get the energy to join this space? Like, it is so crowded. But on a good day, the conclusion that I come to is that for your listeners and for your readers,

if you're in a position of service where you feel like you're really offering them something worthwhile, that is worth their minutes, I feel like that's always what I've, tried to gauge when I was just a writer, I would think, like, well, when they put this down, will they say, I'm so glad I read that? Or will they be like, meh? Mm-hmm. Because if it's meh, then we should save their reading minutes

for something else. Like, there's Marilynne Robinson. Like, you don't need, nobody needs to read either of us. Like, if you haven't read Marilynne Robinson, do not read us. Start there. You know, and everybody has that feeling about certain writers. Doesn't she?

She does. Yeah. And a Pulitzer. Yeah. Actually, I think she just has a Pulitzer, but she will have a Nobel, I'm sure. And she deserves. She was my wife's creative writing teacher. Wow.

Yeah. Can you believe it? She's so heady. Yeah. Anyway, that's what I'm afraid of in the night. And that's what's stopping me on this book project is like, is this already been said and potentially better by others. So I had this wicked panic attack.

in a meeting in New York City when I was 30. At an educational software company, we were trying to teach kids to Shakespeare with CD-ROMs. Okay. Thank you. And it was terrific. And we were trying to sell it to Kaplan Test Prep. So we were trying to make disposable software

before there was the internet because it couldn't handle graphics and sound. And we had a full reading of the play. And you had to costume everybody and you had to answer a People magazine article as if you were the director of a new Romeo and Julie. it, whatever. It was terrific. And I totally flipped out inside. And I was carrying on normally on the outside. But internally, I was like, I'm going to have to go get it. I'm going to have

to hail an ambulance in New York City. Like, I don't know what's happening right now. But I feel like I'm going to get up and say I have to go to the bathroom and just leave this building and leave my computer here. And like, I don't know what to do. I don't know what's happening right now and I don't know what to do about it. And then it passed. And I don't know if it was 90 seconds or five whole minutes or what, but somebody knew came into the room and it disrupted the Adams just enough to catch my attention and like pull me out of this state of internal horror. And then I learned what it's called. I'd never heard of it before. Anxiety attack. Uh-huh. Panic attack. And it was like, you know, an entry in a book. So just seeing that it had a name and that others had experienced it was like

50% of my anxiety about it was gone. But then I went to see this woman, Priscilla Mark on Geary Street in San Francisco. And she said, you have a wonderful imagination. And it seems to me that you're only using it for the negative and never for the positive. So why don't you just train yourself to, after you finish telling the story of your demise to yourself, why don't you spend an equal amount of minutes and an equal amount of cognitive units telling the story of your success to yourself? and that way you will see that they are both just stories you're making up.

I love that. That can be, that's such a handy mental health tool. I know. Because we spin out in our imaginations of like terrible scenarios and this person doesn't like me and reading between the lines and I'm going to fail at this. What if they love you? What if it's going to be a smashing success? Can we spend an equal amount of time conjuring, evoking the possibility,

telling a different story? And then we also, you talked about how wow begets wow. Yeah. Then it's like imagination begets imagination. Like, oh, imagination is a powerful tool. Yes. And I can use it for all kinds of things. Yes.

But also it reveals that it's just you telling you a story. That neither of them are particularly true. Neither of them is more likely than the other. It's just you generating this little movie. about yourself. And if you can do it in the dark, you can do it in the light, you can do it in a mixed bag. Like, you could do it all day long. We could, we could tell stories to ourselves all day long. And in fact, we do. One of the things I love about you and I was texting you this morning was to, to me, you're one of the wisest people I've encountered. And in all of these stories

that you're relaying. I just sense this kind of really simple and profound wisdom. And I'm so glad you have a podcast. And I'm so glad you're writing these books. And I think that your wisdom is really unique. And wisdom is obviously something you get from lived experience. Now you have, I hate using the phrase, but you have battled cancer.

What are you supposed to say to a cancer survivor? You've fought cancer. You struggled with cancer. to be cancer. Just words. Well, to me, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter. Because some people are kind of touchy about the cancer words that we use. Fighting cancer. You know, you've raised two daughters. You've had this book.

You've had this podcast. You've had all kinds of life experience. Even we, I want to get to your, how many months did you spend traveling when you were 20 years old around the world? A year. You spent a year?

You were 20? Yeah. Traveling. 25. Oh, 25. Yeah. I turn 25 on the road. That's some incredible stories there.

But where do you think one gets wisdom? Is there anything like when I say, hey, you're wise? What does that evoking you? And please don't go to the immediately humble, oh, I'm not so wise, but just where do you gain this perspective? I'll tell you one funny part of my life that has been, is just afforded me a lot of insights. which is that I don't like hotels.

I get a little spooked in a hotel by myself. I don't mind going to a hotel with my husband, but like just by myself on book tour to go from hotel to hotel. I just get a little creeped out. Is it the dead skin cells? Could be. You think about that.

There's a lot of dead skin cells in there of a lot of different people, no matter how hard someone vacuums. Yep, it's true. And it's just, yeah, just the whole thing just doesn't do that much for me. Okay. So all these years,

The first book came out in 2008. And so I've gone on seven book tours. And sometimes they're like 30 cities. And in a 30 city book tour, I would probably stay like with 27 different friends or cousins. Wow. So I have a huge, the Corrigan family's huge, lots of cousins everywhere. So I always would stay with them if I could. And then, you know, all these friends from college and Camp Takwa and high school who had,

have spread out in various places. And I think that that has been really instructive for me to like wake up in someone's house and see their kids come down for breakfast and see who's ready for school and see what their eight year old, their 15 year old, their 18 year old, how they act and who feeds the dog and who does the dishes and how the husband and wife talk to each other on the off moments. You know, you're not like going out to dinner. You're sitting at someone's kitchen table. And then you're watching a family do their daily life. And I just felt like I learned a lot and I observed a lot. And it was incredible comparative data. Because, you know, you're inside your own family and you don't know what, like, you don't know what's normal for a 15 year old. You don't know

what moods are normal. You don't know how much help in the kitchen is normal. You don't know what kinds of conversations are normal. Is it normal to say please and thank you to your parents? Or is that like kind of over the top and formal for a family relationship? You don't know how much television is normal, how much who is on their phone at their own dinner table. Dot, dot, dot. And so I just felt like I had developed this point of view over time about what was sort of the average kind of family life that I was observing and then what was outside the norm. And I think it, I also think that because of the kinds of stuff I write about, so, you know, I've written these four books and they're out, one was about my dad and I having cancer at the same time.

One of them was about being an Annie in Australia for a family right after the mom died. People bring, I feel like I'm starting on second base with everybody I talk to. I'm almost never in a conversation where it's like, hi, I'm Kelly. Hi, I'm Rain, and it's like, I don't know anything about you and you don't know anything about me. Almost always, people I'm meeting for the first time, like have some context for me and the things that I like to talk about and think about. Which means that we're just starting, we're all the way in. We don't have to go through that first base stuff. And that means that I'm getting a lot of their wisdom.

And I think my skill is synthesizing. I don't think I'm an originator. I think I'm observant. I think I wonder a lot what your life is like, and so I pay attention. And then I think I like to synthesize. And that is a fun job for me. You're a synthesizer.

I think so. I think so. You mentioned earlier writing a kid's book called Hello World about your dad who went by the nickname Greenie. Tell us that what his... Morning routine? Yeah, his battle cry, his Creecore was, he would open the windows. He would open the window and be like, hello world.

And then you'd go, hello, Greenie. And they'd say, I'm coming out there to get your world. And he'd say, I'm waiting for you, Greenie. And then he'd turn around and be like, roar. Don't you think that has something to do with you being this great synthesizer? Maybe, maybe. I mean, the other thing that I observed in him that is what really Hello World's all about asking questions. because I just feel like nobody's asking enough questions.

I feel like if I could tweak the world in one way, I would say everybody ask twice as many questions as you typically ask and talk half as much. Oh my God. That's music to my ears. Thank you for saying that. Everybody's talking too much. Everybody wants to be the teacher.

Nobody wants to be the student. I have talked about this on another episode. I forget which one my producer is surfing the web right now. He doesn't care. I have gone out to see old friends or business acquaintances, you know, on like a coffee date. And we'll have coffee for 50 minutes. And I'll leave going, that person talked for 38 of the 50 minutes. How does that person not have the self-awareness that they spoke for 38 of the 50 minutes that we

were together because I'm very self-aware about like am I doing all the talking here and how balanced is this? I had dinner with my friend Aaron last night. I did most of the talking. But most of the time he does most of the talking. So I was like, I don't care. I'm just going to talk about what I need to talk about. And he was great. And he really is a great listener and he absorbed it. But isn't that part of it? It's not rocket science. It's super, you know, it can be distilled to a super, simple thing. Like when you see a friend, what percentage of the time are you talking? And adversely, conversely, how many questions did you ask in that conversation? And not ask like, oh, I should ask a question. I should ask a question and wait for them to finish so then I can

continue my monologue. Totally. It's really the follow-up question. You know that you're, you know that you're with someone who's advanced when they ask a question. And then you say, oh, it's good. We went to Costa Rica, blah, la, la, la. And they say, what was the best part? And you say, oh, well, we did this walk through the woods. And they say, does Georgia like that? Does she love walking through the woods? And all of a sudden you're like, oh, okay. So you're actually interested. Yeah, yeah. Now I know. But that's tell me more. That's tell me. That's one of your rules from your book. When and down, just say it. I want to talk about Greenie a little bit. Hello World. I think that my father passed away four or five years ago. I think he spent a lot of his life really depressed.

had an incredibly traumatic childhood, one of the worst childhoods I've ever heard of in American 20th century history. It wasn't like Dickens. He wasn't like chained to a machine, like pooping in his own shoe, but it was really bad. And but at the same time, and I've talked about this before on the show a few times, one of the things I really missed about him and recognized that he brought to the world was he enlivened and inspired every room. that he came into. So if he came into a room with people, he'd be like, hello, how?

That's a nice sweater, Kelly. You've done wonders with your hair. How have you been? I know that you were working on this thing. How did that go? Like remembering something from the last conversation and like always like doing something to just make the room a little bit better.

And maybe I think our fathers had that in common. And maybe that has inspired us to have these kind of conversations. that we're having. The interesting thing about our fathers is that by so doing, they changed the world as they knew it. So I've always felt like my father experienced the world in a way that was particular to the way he approached it. Like he made it a certain way and he didn't even know it. So if you're the guy who walks in the room and is like, Ray Wilson, how are you? Is this fantastic? I love this place. Look at these books. You're amazing.

Oh, look at your crazy monkeys with the asparagus. Mm-hmm. The asparagus monkeys to talk about later. Anyway, if you walk in every room and you're a contributor to the whole, to the vibe, then the room changes. And then if your life is just a series of moments and a series of rooms and you've altered the room every time, then the life you are experiencing is coming off of you and you are changing it. Whereas if you are an Eeyore who is finding fault in every room, and then the world will disappoint you. And that's part of your doing. And so at the end of your life, you and my father would have a vast disagreement about what the world even is.

Because your experience of it would be it is disappointing. People let you down. And his experience of it would be, it is a place of wonder. And both are true because this guy made it so and this guy made it so. And that's like the ultimate agency. So bless your dad for finding a way to put himself in a room with the right energy after sounding like he grew up in a room with the wrong energy. You gave such a beautiful TED talk last year.

Yeah. It was really beautiful. And it was about ordinary bravery. I literally typed out on my computer, because I don't know another way of doing it, the last kind of minute of your TED Talk monologue. And you're talking about these little forms of bravery that we all have,

that we undertake, of loving someone in your family, sacrificing your time for someone else, caring for someone, showing up for someone, listening for someone, that we all do on our houses and our condos and our, you know, in our trailer parks. And that this is a kind of courage that isn't underlined enough that we don't give ourselves enough credit for and enough esteem for. And speaking about this, you end the talk. I'm going to read it. The reward is a full human experience, replete with all the human emotions at maximum dosage, where we have been put

to great use and found an other-centric love that is complete in its expression and its transmission. The reward is to end up soft and humble, empty and in awe, knowing that of all the magnificence we have beheld from cradle to grave, the most eye-popping, was interpersonal. So here's to anyone who notices and reads between the lines, who asks the right questions, but not too many, who takes notes at the doctor's office, and who wipes butts young and old,

who listens, holds, and stays. We who, untrained and always a little off guard, still dare to do love, to be love. That's brave. I was thinking about the many super close friends I have who have had these sort of pop quiz moments where a kid or a parent comes to them and shares something extraordinary, out of the ordinary. Like, I'm a girl and I want to be a boy. Or I hear voices. Or I cut myself every night just to fall asleep.

or a parent who was chasing my friend around the second floor with silverware with like a fork he hid in his pajamas. And I feel like in the context of something like Ted or in the media environment that we're in, that we're having a lot of fun shining a light on the bravery to go to the moon or Mars or launch a company or ring the bell at the Stock exchange. Mm-hmm. Or win a gold medal. Or... Make a billion dollars.

Exactly. And I just felt like I wanted to add to the list that there's a different kind of bravery, which is in that moment that your person, that you love to pieces, tells you something that you have absolutely no training or preparation to hear or respond to productively, to say, go ahead, tell me more. more, what else? When really, there are moments where you want to turn away and think, I'm afraid of what's going to happen next. If I tell you to tell me more, what if in addition to hearing voices, you tell me that those voices are telling you to jump off the balcony? What if in addition to

learning that you cut yourself at night that I have to learn that you have tried before to take pills. Like, there's a lot of danger that's inherent to love. And the people who lean in and say, I can, I can go there. I'm not afraid to be a part of this. I'm not afraid to see the totality. Like, give me your full disclosure. I'll still be here. That is the highest state of human interaction if you ask me. I don't know what's more. Why are we confusing making a billion dollars are going to Mars with the kind of like interpersonal excellence that I am observing in my friends? Like that's brave. That's the height of human experience. That's beautiful. You tell a story about being with a friend who's dying and her dream. Can you tell, can you share that? So my friend

had avarian cancer. She did like, I don't know, 88 rounds of chemotherapy. She tried everything for seven years and she couldn't get it under control. And the last summer of her life, we were on a walk in Montana and I was kind of holding her up a little bit. She was very thin to begin with and then she became even thinner. But she wanted the fresh air and she wanted to see the mountains and she said I had the weirdest dream. I had this dream that I went to this place where, were all the parents who, as she said, had to leave early, got to be. Because she was a parent. She was a parent of three.

So these parents who died young went to this place and they were sitting on folding chairs like on a thick glass floor looking down at the world below. And there was a rule in this crazy dream. And the rule was that you can watch your children's lives unfold, but you can only intervened once. And in her dream, she never had to intervene. That she had given them enough while she was here and that they didn't need her after all. Because you know, your great fear, I'm sure, with an eight-year-old and a 10-year-old and the 12-year-old, is that they don't have what they need yet. You haven't given it all to them. And the reward of this kind of life,

like you say, is a full human experience with all the human emotions. at maximum dosage, an other-centric love. The reward is to end up soft and humble, empty, and in awe. What is that the reward of exactly? Undertaking these acts of... Participating in... Participating deeply in the lives of others. The reward is that you will be more scared than you've ever been

and more proud than you've ever been and more tender than you've ever been. Like the reward is, that if these emotions were on some kind of scale, that you would touch the top in every single category. And it was as much to remind myself of this as it was to share it with the audience, which is to say,

it is going to hurt so much. It's going to hurt as much as it heals. It's going to feel as bad as it feels good. Like you're going to feel as worried as you feel proud. Like every time you peek out on a given emotion, it's lifting the bar and that bar goes all the way across, which means that now your potential for happiness is a little higher than it was. Because you've been over here, you've been so afraid. And now you're so proud if that's the way the story goes. But the idea that we could come and go and only experience some of it.

is not to be aspired to. That's not what we're here for. I don't think. I think you're here for the full totality, which means that it's going to be awful sometimes. I mean, I haven't even had that hard a life, and I have had awful. You've had a pretty hard life.

No. You had to face death. I guess, but only for like a month. There was only like a month there where I was like, I wonder how bad this is. Like it was a 7 centimeter by 4 centimeter tumor. I was 36. I was very young.

And for one month, I was like, God almighty, what if? And then after the second chemo, the tumor, the nurse could feel from the outside, just from a manual exam, that it was softer and smaller. And then it was like, okay, it's responding to the chemo. I'm not some crazy corner case where they're going to throw out the usual playbook and go find some specialized, you know, tree fogged serum. But still, most of us have not faced our mortality even for a month. Well, that's to my great advantage.

I mean, if you make it, if you can get in it and get out of it, it is to everyone's great advantage to be hyper aware of their mortality. Well, definitely, you'll definitely make better choices. The more in touch with that you are, for sure. I absolutely talk about that in Soul Boom and the Native American expression, which was in several tribes, as I understand it, today is a good day to die. Totally. Which is not a warrior cry, like I'm going to go into death of battle, but a reflection on our mortality every day. Absolutely.

Literally, every day is a good day to die. How do you live your life? So that every day is a good day to die. And this ties into that question that you were asking, like, what am I afraid of? because if you've lived your life afraid of X, Y, and Z for, you know, a decade or two, and then you're looking back on it like, wow, I've lost a decade or two to this kind of fear, then today is not a good day to die. Right.

You got work to do. There's work to do there yet. I was alone with both my parents when they died. And I found that those two moments plus my cancer stuff, plus my friend Liz dying, Like those four moments And then you add to that my two children being born Like that is the most informative six moments of my life Now I understand things

Because of those six moments That I couldn't understand without them So we need life moments, birth moments And death moments to understand life Totally I mean if you can love someone as they're dying you're a very lucky person. You will be much improved.

Yeah, I was there when my father was essentially unplugged because he was going to go in hours. There was not an alternative. So we were like, well, let's just speed up the process. There's no reason to let him just be hooked up for hours. And that was incredibly, incredibly powerful to watch that happen. And I'll never forget it. And it's, it's something in my tissues every single day. Conversely, for me, that opens up a spiritual way of looking at the world

because I've shared this before, but I had this incredibly profound experience of when his body was still and gray, realizing like, oh, that's not my dad. That's the vessel that bore my dad. There was something else that was Robert George Wilson-ishness that has moved on and is no longer inhabiting this body. But I didn't for once kind of think he's dead. I think he's passed on. He's moved on. Now, it could be that I've been indoctrinated to such an extent that that's how I viewed, you know, a dead body. I know lots of people and lots of sane, reasonable, good-hearted people that view the snuffing out of consciousness as the end.

That's it. But you have a quote about God and you said, on the matter of God, I've stood in every square on the board, obedient believer, secretly hopeful, open but dubious. I've walked away from the board entirely, only to circle back. Today, all I can say is, I don't know what I think about God. I do know that I love many believers and pulse with gratitude that wants a locus. Nice phrase.

And I wonder about the wonders I see around me and feel inside me. But I'm not sure of anything. When was it that you said that? And are you still at that point? I'm still at that point. And I think it was, I did a lot of reflection because my parents were everyday Catholics. They went to church every single day. It was the absolute center of their lives.

they, of all the things they could have given us, it would have been that faith, you know, I was like, your mom trying to put a coat on you when you leave the house. Did any of that Catholic drip down on you or your siblings? How many siblings do you have? I think two older brothers, and I think they're a little bit more Catholic than I am. And I like to be in a Catholic church, I must say, but it's very cultural for me. Like I, but I often get super choked up in a Catholic church. And that is kind of a weird, uncontrollable thing.

So like in St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York, where I live half the year, my dad used to love to go to St. Patrick's in the middle of the day before like a three martini lunch. He sold advertising. And he'd go to the noon mass, you know, which is like a 20-minuteer, but you get communion. And then he'd bang out of there and go to lunch with some client. And so when I'm passing St. Patrick's and I go sit in there by. myself, like I almost always cry. I mean, I'm kind of crying, thinking about it. But I think it's just because I miss him.

But it's also like, it's so stupid, but I'm also kind of like, I think you can see me. Like when I'm in here, I have a feeling that maybe you can see me. Isn't that stupid? I don't think that's stupid at all. I guess I'm not really that far away

from all these feelings. My mom hasn't. She died in May, so I'm a little still in it. Anyway, there you go. How do you think their faith helped them? I think it totally minimized their lives as individuals in a way that would be hugely beneficial to my generation and the generation that I'm raising. I think that we are so me-centric. It's weird.

and that this idea of happiness, individual happiness has just like exploded as a North Star. And I just think it's so wrongheaded. And I think that what their experience of being Catholic was was to be completely minimized as just like one of a gazillion, you know, one of billions. But in service to something larger perhaps? in service to something larger. Mm-hmm. Where it's like, so I just don't think my mom's thought about herself that much, you know? Like, I always wondered, like, are you happy?

Like, is this what you wanted? What did you want? Like, did you have ambitions that were squashed by the cultural norms of your time? Like, are you secretly a feminist in there? Or was this, like, kind of good for you? Like, I like staying home and I like being a mom. She was so smart that I was just curious, you know? did she get enough?

And she would have laughed at the question. She would have swept the question away as invalid on the face of it. Like, who cares? Like, it's not about me. This is my whole life is not about me. Which is like hilarious because there's an old generation of people

who are saying that my whole life is about me. What else is it about if it's not about me? Like that they would... What would her answer be? It would just be about like being a good person. The roles that I play. Being a good person, good wife, good mom. Here's a thing.

A good Catholic. a good daughter, a good neighbor. All. Yes. A good American. Yes. Yes. Definitely. All those counts. She would feel responsibility on all those counts and all those roles. But those are all like one of many roles, right? To be a good neighbor and be a good American, a good citizen, a good Catholic. Like that's all, you're part of a congregation, if you will. You're not like one of one. You're not the singular miracle, never to be repeated. I sat next to this woman who's so reminded me of my mom on a plane once.

And we were both going to Mexico because that's how planes work. When you're sitting on a plane, both people are going to the same place. Just in case there was. It's not like a train. No, it's not. You get on a train. Thanks. You don't know where that is someone's getting off.

Thank you. Exactly. So there is a difference. That's why I said that. Anyway, we're on this plane and we're going to Mexico. And I said, what brings you to Mexico? and she said, I'm retiring after 38 years as a school counselor. And I was like, wow, that's amazing.

What's the difference between the kids that you saw in year one and the kids you saw on the last year? Great question. And she said, the first year I taught, if you asked every single parent, what do you want for your kids? They would say, I want my kid to be a good person. And the last 10 years, if you ask every parent,

what do you want for their kids? They would say, I want my kid to be happy. And she's like, and that's just a fundamentally different shore to point the boat to. And the whole school had to shift. First, we were raising good people. We were like supporting the development of good people. Whatever that definition is. But surely it included being a good neighbor and being a good citizen and being a good American,

being a good classmate, a good teammate, a good member of this community, whatever this community is. And then it shifted to like, are you as every single person in this room happy? How can we make sure that this school is oriented toward delivering happiness? But I think you get happiness by being the good person. Well, that's what I was going to say, because then you go, well, what makes someone happy? And for a lot of parents, unfortunately, that means financial success. No, no one wants to be poor, but this idea that, you know, I essentially, like I want my kid to be happy,

but I want my kid to make at least $150,000 a year, you know, because that's going to be equated with happiness. And also this idea of happiness versus the Greek idea of eudamonia where happiness is human flourishing, which means making stuff. Yes. And being a good Catholic slash American slash daughter slash mother and all the different ways that we flourish as opposed to happiness, which is like

eating cotton candy and like, oh, I feel good. It tastes good. It's fuzzy. And I'm getting a, it's a good mood and a good dopamine hit for, you know, seven and a half minutes, if that, two and a half minutes. And then that's over. So moods are like, we are told, I feel, and I've done a lot of this, we did this huge project with PBS on the show. there about well-being. And I think we are really misunderstanding moods. And I think there's a lot of... So happiness is not a good mood. Well, good moods are maybe not like the Holy Grail or the single indicator of well-being. Like chasing a good, chasing a good mood. Yes, or panicking over a bad mood. Like it's just information. It's just sensory data coming in and then a little blending and

And some mood lands upon us. And it's just an indicator. It's one indicator of many indicators. But the idea that you should never be in this set of moods, and you should only strive for this little tiny, like, target of moods, is so problematic. Because then every time you're in one of these moods, you think there's something wrong with you. And it's like, but those moods are part of it. This is the full human experience.

Like, you're going to be in all the moods. All the moods are coming. I was thinking about the word Anadonia. Do you know that word? No. It was the original title of Annie Hall, by the way. A movie by He Who Shall Not Be Named. But a great movie.

Great movie, nonetheless. There's a complicated issue of life. What do we do with Woody Allen? It's a complicated question. But Anadonia is an inability to feel joy. But it's not really that. It's more of like a flattening of moods so that the highs are not as high. And I was really seriously thinking to myself as like, in my older age, do I have anadonia?

And I've been pondering this because I'm feeling, I feel solid. I feel good. I love what I do. But at the same time, I was thinking back to like 10, 15, 20 years ago, I had a lot more. bigger, bigger. Bigger moxie, you know, about, you know, in the world. And it's a little bit of a flatter affect right now. But I've been reading the work of Jonathan Haidt around screen stuff with teens and screenagers. And when you're on a dopamine treadmill, it does flatten your moods because you're scrolling and swiping or you're on a game or you're eating or there's porn

or there's a violent video game or whatever. And so you're just getting these little dopamine pops all the time. So then it flattens your ability to feel actual real joy or wonder. Yeah. I was thinking about ambition recently. And I used to, I would have an idea. And before I knew it, I'd be making a phone call or sending it off an email and like beginning the process of pursuing it. And now, before I even finish imagining the idea, I've already released it and thought, and that's right.

I don't need to do that. And I think it's to, I think it's natural and right and to my benefit. But it is noticeable. Like I used to be a lot more game on. Now I'm a little like, that's okay. Is this a natural thing of us in our later 50s? Maybe. I mean, it's interesting.

I mean, it's interesting to feel. I mean, I've just been, and I never would have used the word because it's so unseemly on women, but I definitely was an ambitious person in the sense of, or high agency. Like if an idea came to me, I would definitely pursue it. I would never talk myself out of an idea. And now it's not that I, it's not a fear of failure thing. It's just sort of like, meh, someone else will do it. That's fine.

Like, I don't need to do that. And then I, like, go puzzle or paint something. Like, I've definitely, I would say I'm pursuing half as many things as I used to pursue. I know now that the juice is not going to be worth the squeeze. Like, it's not going to feel that great to have done that. First of all, I have respect for how hard things are now because I've tried so many things in my life. And, you know, only 10% of them have worked out. And when it works out, there's some more.

more magic than there is like strategy. You know, like with the kind of stuff we do, it's just like a flute. Sometimes it feels like a fluke the things that like catch fire. And it's very hard to manipulate that behind the scenes by like turning the dials just the right way. It's amazingly difficult to force an idea into the public

to make a piece of content catch fire. Like it's almost impossible, I find. And so that gives me a little respect for like the mystery of it all. And it's like, yeah, You can have, you can take that, take a run in it. You, 30 year old. But doesn't that bother you a little bit because I kind of find myself in the same situation where like eight years ago or 15 years ago you had an idea.

You'd be like, I'm going to go do that. I'm going to do a one-man show. I'm going to get it on Broadway and, yeah. Now I'm actually working on a one-man show. The, but now you'd rather do a jigsaw puzzle? I just. Or are you focusing your energy in a best? way because you're working on your new book. Yes. So I would say you've you've got plenty going on,

girl. Yeah, I I would say that I am chasing fewer rabbits, chasing fewer shiny objects, and that I, speaking of like a mortality thing, I think there are two things that I want to get done before it's all over. This podcast. Soul boom. And I want to finish this book. I'm working. on and make it beautiful. And I want to write this movie and get it made. And that's it. What's your movie you want to get made? Oh, it's so good.

You don't want to spill it here? What is it? No, it's so good, though. Can I be in it? Sure. It's really good. Is there a part of like a janitor with a heart of gold, but no social skills? Is that your sweet spot?

I could play that. Yeah, you could nail that. Yeah. Can I say I've never had the opportunity to tell you this before? I loved you on six feet under so much. Oh, gosh. Those scenes with her. Yeah.

Like, she's brilliant. She's beyond. And she just owns that whole. And she just, I mean, she was so perfect. Her look and her, like, her hesitation and her body. And she even, like, shook a little when she talked. And then the pairing of you is the first time I ever saw you do anything. Oh, my God.

It's, like, vivid the scenes that you had with her. It's just fantastic. You must have been so delighted when that came to you. That was a revelation. It shifted the entire course of my career. I wouldn't have gotten the office without the roll on six feet under. How many episodes did you get to do? I did 13 episodes. I mean, it would have such a crazy. If you haven't watched this. They would have kept me on, but I got the office and I started getting movies because it opened so many doors for me. That role is the role that landed me on the map. I'll never forget my manager saying to me when I landed the role, he goes, rain, you have no idea. You're a lot. is about to change. Because at the time, HBO was just taking off.

The wire was on. Entourage was on. Sex and the City was on. Sopranos was on. Everyone was turning to HBO for this new era of television. And six feet under was one of the vanguard's in that. Yeah. If you have now watched this, like, stop everything and do it. Okay.

I wanted to say something. You know, when you were talking about what percentage of the time are you talking versus what percentage of the time is the other person talking. Sometimes I feel that I have been informed greatly by editing podcasts. And I often carry that into my interpersonal interactions where I'll say, this is why seven billion people need to have a podcast because when you have a podcast and then you edit it, it's true. You edit out all of the shitty stuff that you're saying along the way.

Totally. So I often say to myself, visualize the transcript. because in a perfect pod, when I'm nailing it, you have a whole page of a transcript and you just have a couple lines here for Kelly and a couple lines here for Kelly. And this is the guest, this is the guest, and this is the guest. These huge chunks, like that's what it should look like.

You're far more generous than I. Because my perfect podcast is like, most in a guest, but brain's got to get his elbows in there. It's a conversation more than it is. I don't want to just toss softballs and then let people ramble. I want to mix it up a little bit. My viewers don't like it necessarily, but fuck you.

I wanted to close by asking you about, if I could sum up everything that you've worked on, it's really about human connection and how human connection is at the heart of a meaningful life. People are more and more isolated these days. How do you think that people can reclaim a sense of belonging And how does this question relate to your daughters and their legacy and you as a mom? And what would your message be to your daughters having to do with connection and belonging and meaning?

I think my days of messaging to my daughters are over and that now it's all hinging on modeling. and I hope that they've been watching the way I interact with the actual people in my life, who I adore. And I hope that they notice this one thing in particular, which is that you can re-fire a relationship, like with a phone call. I can't get over how easy it is to reunite with an old pal.

It takes like five minutes. And so that's been this little gem of a realization for me. And I know it because of these book tour things and how I don't like hotels. Because I'll see that like, oh, my God, Paul Wallace from college, who was like my friend that I got drunk at fraternies with lives in Nashville. And I have to go to Nashville now. So I'm going to call him. I'm going to stay there. I'm going to meet his wife and I'm going to pet his dog and I'm going to eat his favorite dinner that he cooks when guests come to town.

and I'm going to sleep in his guest room, which is really his daughter's room, and I'm going to see all her posters on the wall. And all of a sudden, I'm like back in with Paul Wallace. Like, how fun is that? So one thing I wish that they were free of like the tyranny of the group chat, which makes it seem like it's all so defined and fixed, where it's like you're in it or you're out of it. And if you're in it, like that's your group.

and I hope that they enter their adult lives with this tremendous initiative where they feel uninhibited about reaching out to people. And then the other thing I hope that they noticed is how fun it is to get to do the next thing. So I hope if they look at my career that they would think, oh, this is so fun. Like she did these books and the books put her on stage with all these other writers. and they were doing these in conversations. And that led to somebody from PBS noticing her. And that led to this television show, or that led to this NPR work,

or that led to this podcast stuff. And I hope they saw a great joy in me in getting to try the next thing. That you only qualify. It's like just in time qualifications. Like I wasn't qualified to do some of the things I'm doing now 20 years ago. But, you know, one thing leads to another.

Like, you lay down the next railroad track, and then you cross it. When you were selling children's Shakespeare, ROM, D.S. CD. CD-Rons, as my mom called him. CD-RON. Kelly has a CD-RON business. You were not qualified to have a PBS show. No.

No. You got there. Yeah, but you just inch your way and you just stay in the game and let the waters take you a little bit. I love that idea of the tyranny of the group chat. I think my son falls victim to that. And sometimes we're just like, pick up the phone. Yes, break out. Go see them.

Go 3D. Text them and say, can I come by and see you? Can I have a conversation? Totally. Work this stuff out. Totally. And one of the saddest little moments when I was raising the girls is that one of my kids had noticed that like when girls are in a group, the conversation gets pretty superficial,

pretty fast. And that the default is to like start talking snark about. other girls in their class. Unfortunately, it's like a very common thing. It's being played out on White Lotus right now, actually. There's three women. And whenever one of the women leaves the room, the two women who are still there, talk about her.

Yeah. Anyway, I said, yes, it's very common, and it goes on forever. And what I have done to combat it is just pick off somebody, one person that I like and try to go have some go on a hike with the one person. Yeah. And then you'll see that the quality of the conversation is completely different,

thus seven billion podcasts. And my daughter's like, heard, I like this. So she invited one friend over. And I thought the girl she invited over was really neat. I thought this was all very promising. And then, you know, I'm a meddler. So they were down in the basement. And I was like, hey, girls, you want any like,

want me to cut up some apples for you? You need, like, a glass of ice water with lemon? And when I went down there, they were both on their phones. And I was like, oh. So anyway, the girl laughed. And I said to my daughter, how was that? She's like, it was okay. And I was like, I was really surprised that you guys were on your phones.

And she's like, I didn't know what to do. Like, she took her phone out and started, responded to a text. And then I felt stupid. So I took my phone out and responded to like a fake text. She's like, I didn't even have anything to do on my phone. But I felt like she's so popular that she's like, has to kind of be in two places at once. Like she can be here with me, but she's really got to keep up with these other people. people too. And so I had to pretend to do the same. And I was like, God, that is the worst. Like,

how many people are doing that? You know? And it's couldn't be more true. I've observed it now for, it's been 15 years since that moment. And I observe it everywhere I go. Yeah. It's heartbreaking. And here's the contradiction. Sometimes I do that. Yeah. But it is like a microrejection. Like the amount of micro rejections that we are dealing out on each other is horrifying. Like, no wonder everybody's got shit self-esteem. Can you just give me? Okay. Oh.

You didn't have. It took you forever to get up. I know because I was whipped up. I had to do that. I was whipped up about my thought. No, that was good. That was acting. That was good.

What's your definition of soul? Sometimes I have this really weird singular. feeling when I'm reading. And I feel like it's like the most me I ever am, which is to say like almost nothing. I'm almost nothing. Like I'm not somebody's mom. I'm not somebody's wife.

I'm not somebody's kid. I don't have a podcast. I don't write books. I am nothing. I'm just like this little organism that's taking in the world. Like I'm all eyes, no mouth. Like I'm all ears, no mouth. Like I'm not putting anything.

I'm just a receiver. It's kind of freaking me out right now. Like, go ahead, keep going. And so when I'm in it, and it doesn't happen every time. But sometimes when I'm in it, I like fall into this feeling where I feel like all of my container just is lifted off of me. and I'm just an intellect experiencing an idea. And that... A consciousness maybe?

I guess is what people call it. Is that what people call it in your business? I would say a consciousness more than an intellect because an intellect, to me, just seems like a certain kind of processing. Yeah. Whereas consciousness takes in more information. Yes. But it's like a very light.

place, like it does it hardly weighs anything. And it's shapeless and it doesn't need anything. It's not hungry. It's, um, curious. It's just a curious receptor. Yeah. And I think that when I feel that feeling, I think like, oh, here I am. Like, but I'm not even, I would never say it that way, actually. I would never say here I am because I am not like in it. It's just, like, I don't know. An essence of you, perhaps? I don't know. I don't even know how to describe it, but it's so wonderful.

And I just started attending to it in the last year or two where I crave it, like the separation from the particulars of my one life, where I'm just participating in like an, ongoing conversation that came before me and will last after me, that I'm just having my little sprinkling of it. I don't know. I don't have words yet. That's the best I can do. It's pretty damn great. Thank you. The Soul Boom podcast. Subscribe now on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever else you get your stupid podcasts.