Soul Boom - Drew Afualo: Can Feminine Rage Save the World?

Episode Date: July 30, 2024

TikTok sensation Drew Afualo joins Rainn Wilson to delve into her unique approach to combating misogyny through humor and sarcasm. Drew shares her insights on dealing with online hate, the deep-seated issues of patriarchy, and the toxic culture of hyper-masculinity. They discuss the impact of social media on mental health and the importance of building real-life communities. Drew’s new book LOUD: Accept Nothing Less Than the Life You Deserve is available now at: https://drew-afualo.com Thank you to our sponsors! Pique Tea (15% OFF!): https://piquelife.com/SOUL Squarespace (10% off!): https://squarespace.com/soulboom Waking Up app (1st month FREE!): https://wakingup.com/soulboom Fetzer Institute: https://fetzer.org/ Sign up for our newsletter! https://soulboom.substack.com SUBSCRIBE to Soul Boom!! https://bit.ly/Subscribe2SoulBoom Watch our Clips: https://bit.ly/SoulBoomCLIPS Watch WISDOM DUMP: https://bit.ly/WISDOMDUMP Follow us! Instagram: http://instagram.com/soulboom TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@soulboom Sponsor Soul Boom: [e-mail] Work with Soul Boom: [e-mail] Send Fan Creations, Questions, Comments: [e-mail] Produced by: Kartik Chainani Executive Produced by: Ford Bowers, Samah Tokmachi Spring Green Films Production Supervisor: Mike O'Brien Voicing Change Media Theme Music by: Marcos Moscat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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You're listening to Soul. It's very like pill and a piece of cheese to a dog when it comes to talking and unpacking something as expansive and complicated and horrifying as the patient. It's it's so much bigger than just mean men on the internet, obviously. And so if my silly jokes and making fun of men is what gets people to start listening and understanding the very deeper message I'm trying to platform, then so be it. I'm cool with that. Like if humor is the way that people learn, then that's okay for me.

That's okay with me too. Yeah. I love that. Hey there. It's me, Rain Wilson. And I want to dig into the human experience. I want to have conversations about a spiritual revolution. Let's get deep with our favorite thinkers, friends, and entertainers about life, meaning, and idiocy.

Welcome to the Soul Boom podcast. Like, how soon did you, you have 8 million TikTok followers? Are most of them young women? Yeah, I would say. Yeah, I would say. But a lot of dudes love your stuff too. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Absolutely. And you talked about, like, being kind of unabashedly, I don't want to say aggressive. That's the wrong term. Like bold. Bold, yeah, not taking any shit from anyone. And then all of a sudden, I imagine you're inundated with comments about your looks, about your bold nature by your personality. And of course, you dig right in to misogyny in Western civilization. And you feature dudes and their comments and you address them and you tackle it right on.

How did you navigate all the negative comments? Didn't that bring you down? Do you ever struggle with, you know, the hundreds or thousands of criticisms and just insults that you must get on a daily basis? Yeah, I mean, that's probably like the most commonly asked question to me, but specifically from creators, actually. Like, they ask me just privately, like, how do you do it? Like, how do you deal with the hate? Because it is intense and it is a lot. But I will say.

Because I've had, I've had, you know, half dozen stand-up comics on the show so far. Every single one of them have talked about reading the comments. I'm like, you look funny, you suck, you're not funny. Totally. And how, you know, stand-up comics may appear, like, jaded and, like, you know, invulnerable. But they're pretty, they're big kind of weird neurotic softies inside. Yeah, yeah. I've honestly, the more comics.

I meet, you're so right about that. They are sensitive. They're very sensitive, which is not a bad thing. I think it's a very human emotion to feel something negative when someone says something negative to you or about you. But you lean into it. Yeah, yeah. I'm one of the few who's like my platform is built off the shoulders of people who hate me. So like, I mean, I really dug in. I've done. Thank you, haters. Thank you to them. Love y'all. It first started happening to me. I posted my very first video to go super viral. And it was a video where a woman asked, like, what are some very specific red flags in men that you have? And so I made like a whole list and they were very, very specific. What are some? What are some? I said, uh, if Wolf of Wall Street's his favorite movie

of all time. Um, if he's like obsessed with Tom Brady, not like the bucks or the past, just Tom Brady by himself. Yeah. Um, if he wears backwards hat in the pool, he has loyalty tattooed on the arm. doesn't wear sunblock. That's hysterical. Very specific. And I, and it went. Wait,

doesn't wear sunblock. What's that about? There are some men who refuse to wear sun because I think they think they're stronger than the sun, which I can't relate to. Yeah. But I mean, that's their journey,

not mine, you know. Yeah. Um, they want to be red leathery couch when they go to older and not my problem. Yeah. Or cancerous. Yeah,

that too. That's very possible. Don't tell them that. It's okay. They're probably, if they're stronger than the sun, they're probably stronger than cancer. I think.

That's like a Dwight shrewt. Fact. I am stronger than the sun and I am stronger than cancer. You know what? I would believe him. If he said that to me, I would believe him. That's the one person you're going to believe. I'd be like, you know what? Chuck Norris, Dwight Shrewitt. Yeah, Bear Grills. Yeah, there you go. Those three and those three only. So that was the first one. Paul Hollywood. Paul Hollywood, obviously. Show off your Paul Hollywood T-shirt. Team, get into it. Big fan. Where can I get a Paul Hollywood T-shirt?

shirt. I want to get one from my wife. Oh my God. She would love it. They have Prue ones too. I know they have Mary Berry ones. I have a great British bakeoff one too. I'm a huge fan. Yeah. Me just buying merch they don't have. Um, so I know, Noel Fielding is one of my favorite comedians. Oh really? Yeah. I love all his sketch work. Yeah, he's great. He's incredible. Um, well, that video was the one, my very first one to go super viral. And that's when I got a whole bunch of love and, and people said, did you get push back to? Oh, absolutely. That was the other half of it. If it was split in 50, 50, like 50 was love, 50 was the most visceral violent hate I've ever seen.

And it was very... From guys with loyalty tattoos or something or what? Obviously, I sprayed the crowd and hit a few, you know? Sure. And so, my bad. But I think when I first got the hate, I did not feel any type of way about myself. I honestly thought it was funny because I thought we were all having a fun, silly time together. And so in those days, it was a real wild west for me.

I was just pumping out like 10, 12 videos a day after I got all that hate and I was solely responding to hate. I used like hate comment after hate comment after hate comment. And then I would go look at what they looked like. I'd put what they looked like in my video. And then I would just make fun of them. I would say the meanest shit I could possibly think of. And that is what really started growing my platform when I started doing that. But, Drew, that's not very nice.

No. And I'm not nice. Even if they're being mean to you, how do you feel about that? About like, are you spreading the meanness in a way? I always say this when people say, well, you're not being nice. You're right. I'm not. Because I don't think meanness should be get niceness.

But I do think that's an entitlement people have to me because I'm a woman. If I was a man, they'd be like, well, fair is fair. But because I'm a woman, they expect me. They feel entitled to my patience and my graciousness. But I'm not nice. That's interesting. Yeah. So there might be an expectation because you're a woman.

There absolutely is an expectation. And the fact that I'm not a white woman and I'm not a thin woman, all of those things play a factor into how men specifically, because white men specifically were the maddest at me and continue to be. That's not exclusively white men, but we're looking at about 60% white. To see someone that doesn't only just identify as a woman, but isn't a white woman, isn't a thin woman and doesn't adhere to any sort of European beauty standard. It's very like, well, how dare you? who the fuck are you to say that to me, which is really rich to me because when people say mean shit, I don't think, what's the nicest thing I could say in response to that? That's not my knee-jerk reaction.

And that's not my journey. But if people want to respond to meanness with kindness, that's great. Then I would suggest being mean to those people and not me, because that's not how I handle it personally. And I don't think that anyone who is violently disrespectful or bigoted is entitled to graciousness, especially not from me. And you would think that men would know that by now, considering I've been doing it for years. And I've warned them many times.

Do some of them do it so that they get singled out? So they get some internet attention. They want a little negative attention. Absolutely. And I can, again, because they think I'm the stupidest bitch alive, because I'm a mere woman, they think I can't tell the difference. There are some men who will antagonize me on purpose

and think I'll never see it. And there are some men who antagonize me on purpose because they want me to see it because they think any press is good press, that's kind of the idea they have. Given my history and my kill list, if you want to antagonize me, you don't get a platform out of it.

I can promise you that. That's a promise. You lose everything that you ever built, if we're being real. So if they want to wander into my den and poke me, I can't handle if they get mauled. That's not my fault. Wow.

Well, it's the same thing when men go into caves and bother animals, or they like antagonize bears. Yeah. And then it kills you? What are you so shocked about? Like, it's a shock. There is a whole series of YouTube videos of people at like Yellowstone.

Yeah. Like getting too close to like Buffalo and elk and bears and poking them. And it's one of those things. There's a certain Shaden Freud look it up about seeing those like stupid tourists like getting poked with antlers and trampled. It's the same thing that people who feel. For their arrogance. Yeah, where they fuck with spirits. They fuck with the afterlife.

Like, you use the Ouija board to open the door and you're curious as to how spirits got in. Like, that's one of those things that I think should be very clear about me by now. You would think, but it's not. Part of your work is kind of uncovering this kind of red pill alpha male toxic culture that's out there. Yeah. It's in cells. It's kind of that hyper-masculine Andrew Tate. world that is, it's shocking.

Yeah. What was that like to start to peel the onion and realizing like, oh, these are the people that are attacking me. Yeah. And there's a whole world of these people out there. There's a whole community. Can you tell us a little bit about what you've discovered about that? It's truly shocking, to be honest with you.

I mean, even, I mean, like I said, I grew up with the internet. So I, before becoming a person, I was just a consumer, right? just a warrior. I would just watch and see. And, you know, now that this has become my, like, very particular niche specifically on social media, I've been exposed to the deepest, darkest corners of the internet. I've seen, like, truly the underbelly of, of the internet. And I've seen some of the most awful things you could ever imagine. And it's real men who walk amongst us. And they live next to us. Some of them are married. Some of them have kids. And it's like, they hold these. violent, like terrifying ideologies.

And they platform them as if it's like a joke. Like it's a silly who gives a fuck. Like we're all just laughing. But they deeply believe like some very terrible things. How would you boil down their beliefs into like three to five central tenets? Men are superior to women. Yeah. Women should keep their mouth shut and just kind of have children and be subservient.

Yeah. Women are, yeah, women are naturally subservient and need. And if they are not naturally subservient, it's men's job. to dominate them and make them subservient. Okay. By whatever means necessary. I would say that's one of them. Obviously, they're smarter, bigger, faster, stronger, more capable.

The world would perish without men, but it wouldn't perish without women. Whatever women want or desire doesn't matter because men should be able to know what she needs and they should be able to provide it for her. And then outside of that, it's just they also are violently. bigoted towards other marginalized groups. They hate trans people. They hate gay people. Uh, they hate fat women, old women, tall women, short women, you know, it doesn't matter, muscular women. It, like, they, they, at the very center point, honestly, it's just one, they hate women. That's it. They hate them. They're attracted to them, but they do not like them. They hate them. And if they could,

they would make women mute with no brain. Like, they would lobotomize every bitch in the world if it, if they could. We're not talking about a couple hundred guys. We're talking about hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of men. And some of them are actively in relationships. Like it's truly upsetting. And they also like, and this is just like a dark turn to it. But there's a lot of besides homophobia and transphobia, fat phobia, all of those things. There's a lot of pedophilia in there too.

And so it's truly, truly like I once made a video about someone that was probably one of the few where I'm actually angry in it. And it was because it was this man teaching men a way to get women to sleep with them, even if they don't want to, which is coercion and that's a felony assault. Sure. And it was working. He was showing DMs of men responding to him and saying, hey, this actually worked. I got laid last night. Thank you so much. And this is a man who's living amongst us, walking amongst us, dating women, talking to women, has a mom, has a sister, and doesn't seem to really give a fuck.

that he's teaching men how to assault women, sexually assault them. And so I've seen things like that times a million. And there are a lot of things I don't platform on purpose. And it's because no one should have to see that. And I don't want to be the reason that people do. And triggers are very real on social media too. I'm very careful about what and who I platform because it matters to me. Like now that my voice is so big and I'm so visible, it's important that I keep that

top of mind. Like I remember that my ability to repost or stitch or share can be seen by hundreds of thousands of people. So I need to be mindful of that. Yeah. And be understanding and empathetic towards that. And so, I mean, at the very center point, they just hate us. Well, I talk about in Soul Boom, all the pandemics that are afflicting humanity besides COVID, which is when I wrote it. But militarism and materialism.

racism and sexism too. And a lot of people, I think, live in this kind of NPR la la land that we've fixed, you know, gender inequality and sexism. Yeah. And we really haven't. And feminism is kind of become a dirty word like, oh, feminists hate men and burn bras and just are angry. And maybe a little bit of that. Yeah.

And by the way, I want to say that my wife. Holiday Reinhorn, who's awesome. When I met her, she had a steak knife for an earring and was carrying around a book called Angry Women. My kind of girl. Sounds like my kind of girl. Yeah. I've told people before when women tell me, when women say I hate all men,

I don't ever correct her because there has to be a reason that you feel that way. And who am I to tell you that you're not allowed to? I'm not, I'm in no position to. If you hate all men, I'm sure you have a good reason for that. And when men say, like, what about me? Are you an awful man? Then don't feel hit. If I wasn't aiming for you, don't feel hit.

You know what I mean? And I think they are always asking the wrong questions instead of saying, why does it have to be all men? Why aren't you asking, why do women hate all men? Like, whose fault is that? Is that mine? Or is it the cause of a man? It's not something that is up to me to decide.

And part of intersectional feminism, my intersectional offense especially is autonomy. It's the freedom to do and choose how you walk and move in this world is solely up to you and nobody else. It's not influenced by outside prejudice. It's not influenced by biases. It's not influenced by me. It's influenced by you and you alone. How you feel and how you want to move is not up to me.

So if you want to hate all of them until you find a good one, by all means. That's what I did. And it worked. Do you feel like you're a man? mentoring women how to stand up for themselves with the way that you work? Yeah, absolutely. I think I think the misconception because men are so used to being prioritized and thought of and considered, whereas women aren't used to that. They're used to considering others always. My platform is the one place that men don't have a seat at. Like you don't get, you don't have a say here. You don't get to

dictate what I do and how I react to disrespect or bigotry. Go somewhere else if you want to find it. going to find it here. And I think they, even my platform itself, I think I've made it pretty clear that it's not for those men. I think I've made that pretty clear. And yet they still feel entitled to it. And that's, again, that's misogyny. That's patriarchy and white supremacy in a lot of ways. And I do think I'm mentoring people in not just necessarily how to stand up for themselves. I think past that I validate them, not just their experiences or their, but past that I validate their anger, it's okay if you're mad. If you're angry and you want to react in the exact same way that someone treated you, you have every right to. That's my personal belief. I do it all the time.

Hello? And so I've told, I think validating their anger is why they flock to me because for once, this is not a place for them. This is for you. And so I don't consider their feelings. I don't consider their livelihood. It's crazy how quickly men develop empathy after they watch me eviscerate one. All of a sudden, it's like, well, I feel so bad for him. Did you feel bad for me when he attacked me first? Of course, she didn't. And I was like, but you want me to consider him and you. That's crazy. Have you heard from men that might have been kind of toxic misogynists that have kind of slowly come around or actually been able to learn from you over the course of videos? videos or years?

I mean, yes, I would say, but they aren't men that had, like, violent, like, bigotry already or this disdain for women or anyone who operates outside of the gender binary. Like, it's never a man like that. It's more so men who, they're like, oh, I understand. Like, I totally, I get why, you know, you do what you do. I have had some men message me and tell me, you know, I really love your stuff. I've loved your work for a while. you've actually like helped me let go of some things and unpack some stuff like some ideology that

I had I didn't realize had bigoted tendencies buried within it until you painted it to me that way and once you did I was like wait you're right that is misogynistic I should I shouldn't do that or I shouldn't feel that way and I think that's a beautiful thing I think that's wonderful to the gift of getting older like past just getting to see you know live longer is is just just you change and evolution and getting to grow and be better. I mean, there's nothing wrong with doing that. Like, there's nothing wrong with admitting that some things that you once held close to you are actually bigoted in their very nature. And so maybe holding this belief doesn't serve me. And maybe I should let it go and maybe my life will be better for it. There's nothing wrong with doing that.

But part of patriarchy, part of misogyny is pride and ego. And so if your ego is too big, I can't change your mind. Like, and I've said, before too, when misogynistic men do not see women as equals, obviously. It's a very baseline of misogyny. So what makes you think they're going to listen to me when I ask them, please don't do that? That's not nice. Please don't do that. Like asking in a nice way doesn't work. And there's many different historical examples to prove that. Yeah. That's sometimes when speaking to your oppressor, you have to speak in a language they understand a lot of times that's violence. whether it's physically or it's verbally or it's emotionally,

it takes many different forms. But they don't listen unless they're forced to. I still don't think that they're listening. No, not at all. You know, I've had some personal experience with this back in the early days of Twitter when I used to kind of post a lot. Yeah. This is, and I'm going back 10, 12 years.

Yeah. You know, for me it was climate change denialists and people who were opposed to universal health care. Like, we're the richest country in the history. of world civilization and we can't have decent health care for all of our citizens. Yeah, that's insane. But we can have, you know, as many missiles, more missiles than you can, and you can count. We got a real beefed up military though.

We so, you know, our priority, but the gall of people that would come at me, you know, to say climate change is some kind of liberal conspiracy or that, you know, people who need universal health care should just get a job. It didn't matter what I did, whether I was reasonable. it wouldn't change their mind. If I came at them and insulted them and went at it with it, that didn't change their mind. But what I feel like what's important for,

this is me going to mansplain, your social media phenomenon. I'll allow it. Thank you, just this once. But the way that I see it is what you're doing is for the legions of young women that are watching you. Totally. You're a hero.

And you standing up for yourself and saying, I'm not going to take that bullshit. I'm not going to take your hate. Yeah. It's really important for millions of young women to go like, oh, that is an option for me. Absolutely. I can learn how to do that. And you do it with grace and a lot of humor, you know, and a really cutting sarcasm.

Yeah. So I think that is super important. Thank you. Like get off this app. Go do it somewhere else. Do it where I can't find you. Or block me. I've warned men like that before.

If you're going to do this, if you're going to do the bigoted shit, make sure I can't find you because I will find you. I find you every time I got birds stationed all over and every app. I've had some followers pay for a Patreon access to record stuff and send it to me in an email. They're like, hey, I think you should fuck this one up. Like that I'm not kidding. I got sleepers everywhere. I say the word. They go like and then they turn into a soldier for me. So like I that's I will mobilize them at any moment. But that's the way that you're raising up a feminist army. I am. A real call to arms, you know? And I, and I feel like it's very like pill in a piece of cheese to a dog when it comes to talking and unpacking something as expansive and

complicated and horrifying as the patriarchy. It's, it's so much bigger than just mean men on the internet, obviously. And so if my silly jokes and making fun of men is what gets people to start listening and understanding the very deeper message I'm trying to plet up. Then so be it. I'm cool with that. Like if humor is the way that people learn, then that's okay for me. That's okay with me too. Yeah. I love that. I'm really mixed on the internet and social media. I had this company Soul Pancake for 10 or 12 years. We were kind of a pioneer in doing inspiring, uplifting content. We were a pioneer in doing content about mental health epidemic, kind of like before it started. We were doing it back in like 2011, 2012. And we early on saw the The links between social media and smartphones and mental health with young people and especially young women. Yeah.

It's a multi-part question, but basically how do you navigate this tightrope where wouldn't the world be better without social media? I think it absolutely would. But at the same time, we're not putting the genie back into the bottle. Yeah. It's here to stay. How do we navigate it? How do you walk that tightrope between the potential good that social media can do?

the communities it can build, the networks it can build, the information that's out there, the beauty and inspiration that we can derive, even if it's from just a silly YouTube animal video of like an otter that lives in someone's shoebox or whatever it is, how do you walk that tightrope between all of the good social media can do and all the mental health detriments, you know, the corrosive nature of it at the same time? Totally. Do you struggle with that? Yeah, I mean, I think because I am human, I definitely do struggle with that. I think the difference with me, just for me personally, is that the only things that weigh heavy on me when it comes to social media are any sort of criticism from communities that I feel driven to protect. Those are the only times I really feel like it affects me mentally. And that's just because I care a lot. And I feel like I thrive as a protector. Like, that's who I feel like I really am at my very core. And so, you know, again, that lends towards.

evolving and growing and getting better, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. But I guess what I would say, therapy has helped me a ton in balancing that. Like, unbelievably, it's completely changed my life going to therapy. And I think I grew up with the internet. I was at the very, like, start of it, right when YouTube was like brand new. Are you an iPad baby? No. I mean, actually, no, not necessarily, not as much as I'm a millennial, but I'm like right in the middle of millennial. I'm not an older millennial, not a young millennial. And I'm definitely not Gen Z. So I think the beauty of what social media has given us, like access and community and information. And there's so many things that people have been able to learn and understand and find camaraderie in with each other

in a beautiful, positive way because of social media. I mean, COVID was a perfect example of when people were like really searching for connection and were finding it. through social media, but at the same time, it has, you know, the gift of virality has really poisoned a lot of the well as well, because it's, it's driven people to want to go viral by any means necessary. Oh, yeah. Even if saying awful shit, saying bigoted shit, like, you can build a community that way, too. It doesn't always lend towards positive and beautiful and awesome.

It's also just as evil and negative. What may help, or maybe what helps me is having real life community outside of just, social media. So for me, when I feel like maybe the internet's weighing a little too heavy on me in certain days, which does happen even now, I remind myself that this isn't real. I am. And my community I have in real life, that's real. And so I go and spend time with real people in the real world. And I go outside. There's so many young people that don't have that. I mean, you came here with your, with half your family. I mean, I love, I love it. You know, your community is very clear. Totally. But what about young folk out there?

that are disconnected from real life community. Can you on your platform help them build that? How do you deal with the mental health effects of the internet with what you do on social media? Sometimes like to remind my like audience for the people who love me that like our algorithms are user generated. So we curate our own algorithms. What we're constantly consuming is what they feed us.

So if what you're constantly consuming is something that doesn't make. you feel good, whether it's something that makes you feel bad about yourself or it's, or it's like a doom scrolling thing or anything in between. It's important that you understand that we are curating our own feeds. Sure. So if you follow people that make you feel bad about yourself, maybe you should unfollow those people and follow people who inspire you and push you and drive you, make you want to drive for a greater life, a greater purpose, whatever that may be. And that looks very different for everyone. And thankfully, as much dog shit as I stitch on the internet, my TikTok algorithm is wonderful. I see the funniest, silliest things, the most beautiful videos.

Like, my 4U pages is blessed, thank God. Because a lot of times people ask me, like, oh, is your 4U pages just full of like the most awful videos in the world? No, thankfully. But I think when it comes to what you're consuming, I don't think we realize how big of an impact that does have as often as you're looking at it. So those are moments where I think you either try to curate a better algorithm, maybe try to follow more uplifting things, things that make you feel good, things that make you inspire you or make you want to try something new, whatever that may look like, or you just unplug entirely.

That's very possible too. But it is, like you said, a little hard now because the genie is out of the lamp and it's hard to. Yeah. I think to say, like, oh, we should just get rid of it or delete your apps entirely. Sometimes that works for people. But I think eventually they end up going back and redownloading them. So instead of like going through that cycle, maybe we just generate a new one, a new for

you page, a new timeline, something that's filled with positivity and things that you love or things that you care about. Is it possible, do you think, to create a social media platform that is just only positive? How would you, how would one do that? I wouldn't say only positive. I would also say, I would also argue, too, that like it is a lot of people's news source as well. and I think that has a huge effect on people. Well, that's a terrible idea.

You should know that as a journal as a major. I'm saying that's not my new source. I'm saying that is the reality for most people now, especially young people. They get all of their information from the internet. Like from TikTok, from Instagram, that's it. Like they don't look past that. They're like, well, I saw it on TikTok, so it must be true.

That is very troubling and very concerning. But that's why I don't think, I don't think burying your head in the sand is a good idea either. I just think you should follow people that align with you more. Not necessarily only people that post fluff things that distract you. I think that's important too because sometimes we need positivity. We need enjoyment.

We need like happiness. We need to see that too. But at the same time, we need to stay plugged into the real world. I saw a TikTok recently actually where a girl was talking about how experiencing happiness or posting about things that make you happy, even when awful things are happening in the world, is important. It is very important for your health overall and your wellness overall. to experience joy, even in the midst of turmoil and tumultuous election and tumultuous genocides and all these horrible things that are happening all around the world, it is still important

to experience joy and love and laughter and all the things that bring you light. That's just as important as it is to stay plugged in. In the Baha'i faith, there is a central teaching about the elimination of sexism and the equality of women and men. And these teachings were coming about in the 1800s. So that was absolutely revolutionary at the time. People were not talking about that. Women didn't have the right to vote anywhere in the world in the 19th century.

But the analogy that's used is that there's two wings of a bird. And the feminine and masculine are two wings of a bird. And that there's then inherently a kind of an interdependence. And the bird itself, which is humanity, will be stronger when both wings are strong. And I think a lot of men don't understand. and I wish there was a way to make that population understand that they'll be better off with strong women. Yeah. With independent women, with, you know, motivated women with powerful.

Look what happened during World War II when all men went to war. Then all of a sudden women got welcomed back into the workplace. Why? Because we needed them. And look what happened. The world kept turning. The world kept moving because we needed everybody. And so, have you heard of the 4B movement in Korea?

Yeah. Yeah, it's something with, it's a reaction of women to sexist men and this patriarchy that's really endemic to Korean culture. Yes. And so they're refusing to have children. They don't want to do it anymore. And you can't force them, right? And so what's happening now is the population in Korea, I think it was either last year or the year

before. I can't remember, forgive me. I don't remember the genesis of it when it started. But for once, their population of people who died outweighed who was born. That hasn't happened in the history of Korea. Why? Because women are refusing to have kids until they're treated equally and fairly.

And turns out women are a lot more essential than you would think, huh, than men believe them to be. Because now the government is panicking because they're like, what are we going to do? Like, we're going to die out unless women decide to start having kids again. And they're refusing

until they are awarded the exact same rights and respect that men are awarded in their society. And so when people have asked me how I feel, I say, period. Whatever gets them to listen, bitch, I don't give a fuck. If it means I'm clocking out, good luck having kids without me, right?

Then in a lot of indigenous culture, there's a lot of beliefs that are spread around about hunter-gatherer, right? Like men are hunters, women are gatherers. A lot of indigenous culture has proven that that wasn't the case. What happened was they would leave women behind because they believed women to be far more essential to their tribe than men. They're like, I could lose a thousand men, it wouldn't matter. But if I lose two women, my tribe dies without them.

So they believed they worshipped women to the point where sometimes they thought women were deities. A lot of times they thought trans people or intersex people were deities in indigenous culture, which is why a lot of them have third or fourth genders like mine. So to believe that men are inherently superior historically is not true. Like men have just been given far more opportunity. Can you imagine if we started the race at the same time? Who knows? And to think, too, there are many different, like for example,

Albert Einstein, you know, there's a lot of stories and reports now that his wife was actually the one doing a lot of the math that he's known for. So can you imagine how many things, because whenever I bring that up, men who are awful, they'll say shit like, well, what about the roads? What about cell towers? What about this? What about that? What's funny is when they're like, what about buildings? Have you ever built anything? I haven't. Turns out you're just as fucking useless as me, right? Because we're both iPad babies at home. What are we talking about? Neither of us do construction. So who gives a fuck, right? But past that, how are we to really know that all of those things were discovered by men when they never gave women credit for anything?

How are we to really know? I don't know. I could go back and find out none of that shit was discovered by a man, but I wouldn't know because they don't give women credit for shit. The story of humanity is a story of the divine feminine. And in the early, we're talking, going back 20, 30,000 years ago, all of the deities were kind of woman-based. And then around, I think it was around 5,000 years ago, all of a sudden as kind of invading armies became more prevalent. And like, you know, then a strong male god subverting another strong male god

and our male god kicks your male god's ass. You know, all of a sudden it became very patriarchal. Yeah. But our human origins, our indigenous origins, because at one point in time, we were all indigenous folks. My ancestors are indigenous Norwegians, you know, 2,000 years ago. But those were very, those were cultures that honored the divine feminine. Yeah.

Where do you find hope? There's a lot of anger. There's a lot of reaction. And there should be. things are really, really colossally unjust. But is there a way forward that builds a bridge and that potentially unites the two wings on a bird? I think that change, like real change,

isn't going to come from them just magically being like, actually, I don't think I hate you anymore. I don't think that's where it's going to come from. I think it comes from us. I think it comes from all the people who don't feel that way. If we just let them die out and start building a new... Let them go. Yeah, let them...

We give them... Like a Vikings death, I give you back to the sea. You know what I mean? Set you on fire while you're on the way out. Yeah. That's my kind of death. So I'm letting you go, right? And instead of worrying about changing your mind,

I'm just going to catch everybody else. What do we build? I mean, I think we build something based off like just capability, like whether or not you're competent enough to do it. I think that's more than enough. I mean, I don't know. I'm no leader. I'm no, like, world leader.

But I was like... You will be. Hopefully. I'm going to make sure of it. Well, there's something to be said for that. You know, again, I'm sorry to keep quoting my book to you. No, you're fine. But in Soul Boom, I talk about the forces of integration and forces of disintegration, and both

are at work at the same time. Yeah. So there are a lot of intersexual feminists on the front lines that are trying to build a new world with strong women whose voices are front and center. Yeah. And don't put male voices front and center. Yeah. Sorry, it's my podcast.

But then you, and there are the forces that we talked about. We talked about this kind of this red pill toxic masculine community in the millions that is actively trying to bring things back to like medieval times. Yeah. Colonial times. You know, the solution, I think, is to focus on the integration. Absolutely. Work for the integration.

Find that people that are working for integration, for healing, for building new systems, and work with them and disregard the disintegration. It's going to happen whether we like it or not. Absolutely. We can rail against it all that we want. Yeah. But we can land our energy, our forces, even on a small level, like a social media, follow to the people that are trying to do something different.

Absolutely. I sometimes like metaphorically compare like my specific niche and what it is I do to like we're all in a burning building. Right. And I'm I'm just holding the door open. Just get out. Like I'll hold the door. Just get out. Like I found it. I opened it. Let's all just get out. It's going to burn down regardless. So let's get out while we can. I care more about helping women and others who have been struggling with like, page. hierarchical values or misogy. A lot of them feel the same ways I do about a lot of things, but sometimes they struggle with certain parts that they haven't unpacked yet. Like, for example, internalized fat phobia is very prevalent, specifically amongst women. And it's because of the way that we are held to this impossible beauty standard from the moment we hit puberty, like sometimes even before that. And so I've made videos in the past. Which Instagram and TikTok doesn't help with, hello? Yeah, they've actually. Yeah, they've actually. Absolutely. Who's the most followed person on the internet? Kim Kardashian. Yeah, it's like media, entertainment, Hollywood have all been huge catalysts in this struggle to love your body exactly the way it is. And so what I've told people, because, you know, women can talk shit on men all day. And sometimes if they get hit with like, well, guess what you're fat? It crumbles them immediately. And I understand why, because it's awful. It's an awful feeling to think that someone would attack your looks just because you disenfranchise them.

agreed with something that they said. Yeah. But what I've come to learn in unpacking my own internalized fat phobia is that fat is not a bad word. There's no, there's nothing denigrating about that word. Sociologically, we've given that word an evil term and an evil feeling and a negative feeling. Fat is nothing more than an adjective and a descriptor.

Being fat or living as a fat person does not determine whether or not you deserve love or respect. That shouldn't be a determining factor. That should be based off character and integrity alone. That should not be based off what you look. like, especially if you're fat. And so what I've taught the people who follow me is that if someone calls you fat and ugly, okay, my response is this, send me a picture of what you look like.

Okay, I'm fat and ugly, ooh, send me a picture of what you look like. I'll comment on what you look like and then we'll see if we're still having a good time. Turns out they're not. They never have a really good time when I jump in. But I've told people before, if you take the power from that word, it cannot hurt you anymore. It doesn't hurt you. In fact, men like that see women as vapid creatures. They don't see them as humans or let alone an equal.

So they truly believe the meanest thing they could ever say to you is to call you fat and ugly is to call you undesirable. And so if you don't care whether or not this man finds you desirable, it can't hurt you when he tells you that. I don't give a fuck if you don't want to fuck me because guess what? I feel the same. So maybe we should be friends. We have a lot in common. We both find each other just truly abhorrent to look at. Win, win.

We all win. Don't worry. I'm not going to date you. It's okay. Don't be so afraid. You also gross me out. So it's a win. That's another, an example of me giving all the people who follow me the tools to, like, empower

themselves and strengthen themselves and live outside of the confines of male validation. It's a prison. That's what it is. Once you let that go, oh my God, the way the world opens up. It's like those people that put on those glasses and they're going. I can see colors for the first time. Because you start with male validation and then maybe move to any kind of external validation. Yeah, absolutely.

Because sometimes I know in speaking to my wife, sometimes the woman on woman stuff can be so toxic as well. And that's driven by patriarchy. That's internalized misogyny. Women who attack each other, that's one of the many sinister ways the patriarchy works. It gives you this idea and belief that there can only ever be one of us. And I always think about that monologue from Gone Girl, where she's talking about, Rosamund Pike is talking about how like the funny thing about this is they think this woman

exists. Like it's a fallacy. A woman who's like has no stomach but huge tits, huge ass, loves football, loves drinking beer, but she's not a whore. It's like these antithesis existing in the same body. And it's every woman is striving to be that girl because that's the girl that men love. And that's a pick me, right? That's the term Gen Z people have given.

in it is a pick me girl, which is based off Meredith Gray's speech to what's his name, McDreamy, I forget his name, McDreamy, McTeamy, one of those white guys. Yeah. She's like, pick me, choose me, love me, right? Like, that's a pick me. So when women attack each other, I have a lot, and women have attacked me like many times. It's nowhere near the amount of men, but obviously it has happened to me. That woman, I hold a lot of empathy for her, but I can't save her, right? So although it's either, This train is leaving with or without you. But what I will advise women who have a lot of internalized misogyny like that, what I would advise

you to understand is at the end of the day, you're still a bitch to them like me. Whether you're mean to them or not, they don't see you as an equal. They put you in the same bucket as me regardless. And that's happened before. There was one time this man made this awful video about me, commenting nothing on my look. Everything about my looks, nothing on anything. I had to say. And it was quite boring, if I'm being honest. And then in the comments, a girl jumped in there and commented on my looks and talked about how she thought it was ugly, whatever.

And someone else responded to her and said, you have a filter on your profile picture. So I would shut the fuck up if I were you. And the guy who made that video liked that man's comment and not hers. And it's crazy how you sold me down the river and you still got fucking hit. Why? Because you're a girl just like me, bitch. So it's funny how selling out your teammate doesn't really work in your favor. Like, you don't get to cut the line in the weight for equality just because you hate me just as much as they do. You're still a woman just like me, girl. At Soul Boom, we talk a lot about spiritual tools for personal and social transformation. Is spirituality a part of your life? Is spirituality a part of your life?

life. I know that it's super important in Samoan culture. Yeah. And if so, what's your daily practice? Well, I pray to my ancestors a lot. And I ask them for guidance. I ask them for, you know, support. And I do feel like some of my, you know, loved ones who have passed, like they have visited me in dreams. And I feel like those were signs and very pivotal moments in my life. So I think Praying to my ancestors is a big one that I do daily. I'm also, I feel like spirituality is, it can manifest in many different ways. And I think manifestations are a big part of that too. The positive affirmations are a big part of that for me as well.

So I always do affirmations. I manifest a lot. And I pray a lot to my ancestors. And I think those are like kind of the daily practices involving my spirituality. It's pretty evolving. Yeah, it's pretty evolving, pretty growing. I'm still exploring it a lot, to be honest. Well, I also believe that creating a more just and sustainable world is a spiritual practice as well, which you're endeavoring to do.

Add it to the list. In your own inimicable way. Let's talk about your book a little bit. Yeah. Loud. What's the subtitle of it? Except nothing less than the life you deserve. Wow.

I love that. Thank you. I came up with both of those on my own. I'm very proud of that. Good for you. Thank you. A clarion call. Tell me about Loud because it's both a memoir, a manual, and a manifesto. Yeah. So you weave your life story in with your kind of what you've learned about your kind of feminist journey. Yeah. Tell us about it. My goal for the book was always to be an expansion of my, you know, online presence and just kind of elaborating a lot further on the ideologies I hold and why I feel the way I do about things, why I walk so convicted in the beliefs that I have and why I hold them so dearly and how I churned out this way, because that is, everyone's very

curious about how I turned out this way all the time. And so I think my goal was to give people like a piece of my brain and my heart to take home and to pull strength or courage or whatever they need from it whenever they need it. And specifically, my goal is to help them in whatever way that looks like to de-center men entirely from their thoughts, their feelings, their ambitions, like to de-center them entirely and move solely based off what you want and what you love and how you want to exist and be perceived in the world. And so that's kind of the goal of the book. And hopefully I think I've achieved that, but we'll see. What was a story that was the most challenging for you to write about? And was there one and was there one that you were really, you wrestled with,

but you're really glad that you included? Yeah, I mean, there's two that I can think of. The first was my sister coming out to me because my sister's a lesbian. And so the story of her coming out to me is a complicated one. And it is a painful one in many instances. But it was vital to my character development. Like, it really was. It was very, very important to, it had to happen that way for me

in order for me to become a better person. a better ally in many different ways, a better sister. And so that one was very difficult for me to write about solely because it is very emotional. And so when I initially brought up that story to everyone, my team specifically, I was very emotional when I was telling them the story verbally. And what was it about your sister coming out that was difficult for you to? At the very center point was fear. I was just very afraid, like for her on behalf of her. on behalf of her.

I was very afraid of how the world would perceive her. I was afraid how she would be treated. I was afraid of something that would happen to her. And, you know, it was very difficult to digest in a way that's loving and open and patient and empathetic and understanding when I'm 17. Like, I'm so underdeveloped at that time, even though I felt like I was the most grown bitch alive. Even at 17, I was like, I'm an adult. And so I think it was more than anything, it was fear driving me. But then I talk about it a lot in the book, too, how like when someone comes out to you,

it's the most vulnerable they could ever be. And so they're reaching out, like, for community and support and love. And I was making it about me. And so my fear driving me is my fear, right? So that's something that has to do with me. But her sexuality and her coming out to me has nothing to do with me. She's asking for support. She's not asking for me to think about myself, you know.

And so I think that's what was so difficult about it for me. And also, like, we're best friends. Like, we've grown up together. We've done everything together. We still do everything together. So at the time, I was like, I would have known. I should have known that. I should have known that.

But again, I'm 17. I'm underdeveloped. I'm immature. Emotionally. I still had internalized biases. I had to unpack. Even though I felt like I was the most liberal, progressive person in the world at the time,

turns out I wasn't, right? And that's not an experience I don't think is exclusive to me. When you believe, like really truly believe that you're liberal and progressive and you're accepting of the LGBTQIA plus community, that could be very well be true. And then it also could happen. It could exist at the same time that it's a lot more challenging when it's someone that you love dearly that comes out to you. It's easy to support them from afar. But can you do it when they're right next to you? And so that was something I had to go through in order to be.

become a better person, and thankfully I did. And so talking about that story in the book was very difficult for me. And more so than anything, I struggled to be vulnerable publicly for many reasons, I think. But that was a story I made sure first to ask my sister. Like, we had extensive conversations about it, like whether she was okay with me talking about it and writing about it and just putting it in there at all. And then past that, I was like, I didn't want to talk about that publicly in a way that would invite discourse or commentary, which it will because it exists in the book, but I wanted to be able to write about it in a way that was careful and gentle and understanding.

And so I believe I've achieved that, thankfully. But it was, it was very hard writing about it. But I'm glad I did. I talk a lot about how the writing process has really therapies me in a lot of ways. I feel like it was a lot of unpacking for me, which was a good thing. You said that there was another story that was also challenging for you. Yeah, the other story is it was about my thoughts on kids and like whether or not I want them and unpacking that too as like a woman in getting older.

And, you know, I'm like partnered. Obviously, I have my boyfriend and we're going to get married and that's something we're planning on doing and we're very excited about. And so going through that like, I guess belief and how I feel. feel was very difficult for me too because although I am someone who's very outspoken about being an intersectional feminist and I, you know, believe in bodily autonomy for everyone. And that is very true. That stands true to this day. I still, even now, like having a boyfriend, I still get questions all the time. Like, when are you guys going to have kids? When are you going to do kids? Like,

when are you guys going to have kids? You guys will have the best kids. Like, it's just always about kids like when it comes to women. It's like what, and I've wrote about this in the chapter as well. And by the way, that's such a rude question. It's such a rude question. I agree, Rain. On so many levels and people don't realize that. Yeah, absolutely. It's very and it's, people could be making the choice. They don't want to have kids. There could be something physically that they've tried to have kids and they can't. And it's the, it's the center of the, their greatest heartbreak that the coupleship has ever known. Totally. There's all kinds of issues around. And they're all private. Like they're all, they're all, they're all something that should,

should not be subjected to discourse on the internet. And I firmly believe that too. And I think me being super outspoken about that and being super open and honest and upfront about who I am and what I want and where I'm going, it still felt like there was like a lingering, but kids are still at the end, right? Like it's still always like a bookmark.

But you're still going to have kids, right? Like it's still, no matter what I achieve or how much I accomplish or how many badges of honor are given. Does any of it mean anything unless you have kids? Because you talk a lot about removing men from the center about how women think of themselves. Totally. Can you also remove kids from being the center of how women think of themselves? There's nothing wrong.

Kids are beautiful. It's wonderful. I'm so glad I have a kid. You know, more kids, families. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But why are women, you know, culturally so defined by the men. men in their lives and the kids in their lives. There's still a, I think, a misconception about how like women are still boiled down to body parts or women are still boiled down to whether they

sire children, whether they get married, like even someone like myself is not exempt from that kind of expectation. And so going through that and my thoughts on it and how I feel about it and, you know, all the different experiences I've had to have led me to where I feel about it, I felt that was again something I felt like could be discussed in my book. And I wrote an op-ed for the LA Times a couple years ago. And it was right before I started really writing the book. And when I wrote about it, I really considered writing about kids. I really considered writing about my viewpoints.

And then, to be quite honest with you, I chickened out. And I was like, no, actually, I'll write about something else because I just didn't feel ready. And so when I started the writing process, I really felt like, okay, now I'm ready. Like now is the time because I get to write it and I get to handle it and I get to handle it with the gentleness. I, in respect, I feel like it should be handled with. And so, you know, that was also very difficult for me. And, you know, thankfully I have like a wonderful team. And even like one of my editors and my publisher, Sean, he asked me like for those chapters in particular, he was like, I think you could give me more.

Like I think you can give me just a little bit more like take me there, like push a little bit harder. because I those chapters in particular I wrote multiple times and I I know now it's because I wasn't I wasn't ready. I was still fighting being vulnerable. And so, you know, Sean was telling me like I think if you really open up like you'll be surprised at how like beautiful it can be. It doesn't have to be. You don't have to say anything or talk about anything you don't want to. And he's like, but if you've decided you really want to talk about these two, these two particular subjects for a very specific. specific reason, then you got to commit to it, right?

Like, really, like, open up a little bit. Lean in. Yeah, lean into it. Like, open up. You'll be surprised how it'll come out. And so... And it'll help the reader. Absolutely.

And he's like, I think people deserve to know more about you in these instances. And so, like, let them in. Like, let them see it. And at least this way, we get to control how and what they see, right? So, you know, thankfully for him, I think he made me a better writer. Those are two chapters, though, that I tend to skip over because they make me very emotional. But I've read both of them multiple times. Doing the audiobook was a little rough for me, but it was great. It ended up working out. Good for you. That's great. Drew, it's so great to sit down

with you and pick your brain and hear about your mission. We're both on a cause. We sure are. We're running in tandem. Spiritual revolution and the liberation of women's voices. Period. And what was the thing you taught me? What did you teach me? Oh, yeah. Boy. This is us to Red Pill guys. guys. Yeah. Yeah. Get into that. Yeah. Period. Yeah. Period. Do you say anything with it or you just do... Got them. Got them. There you go. Boom. It's like boom roasted from the office.

Yes, exactly. It's like... Michael Scott saying boom roasted. Similar vibes. Everyone check out loud, except nothing less than the life that you deserve. Woo-hoo. By Drew Afuallo. Out now. Thanks for being on Soul Bowl. Oh my gosh. Of course. Thank you for having me. The Soul Boom podcast.

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