Soul Boom - Ed Helms and the Good Old Days

Episode Date: July 31, 2025

Ed Helms, (The Office, The Hangover) digs into memory, identity, and what it means to truly live in the moment. The two reflect on their years together on The Office, the unexpected emotional impact of a single line from the show's finale, and how chasing success nearly kept them from appreciating the present. Ed opens up about his ADHD diagnosis, his evolving relationship with therapy, and how self-compassion became a necessary survival tool. They also dive into the dangers of social media, the power of vulnerability, and Ed’s deeply personal new book and podcast SNAFU. THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS! ⁠⁠⁠Get a 4-week trial, free postage, and a digital scale at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.stamps.com/soulboom⁠⁠⁠. Thanks to Stamps.com for sponsoring the show! Fetzer 👉⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.stamps.com/soulboom⁠⁠⁠ Bragg (20% OFF! CODE: SOULBOOM) 👉⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠https://www.bragg.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⏯️ SUBSCRIBE!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠👕 MERCH OUT NOW! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠📩 SUBSTACK!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  FOLLOW US! 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram: http://instagram.com/soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 👉 TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://tiktok.com/@soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  CONTACT US! Sponsor Soul Boom: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Work with Soul Boom: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Send Fan Creations, Questions, Comments: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Executive Produced by: Kartik Chainani Executive Produced by: Ford Bowers, Samah Tokmachi Companion Arts Production Supervisor: Mike O'Brien Theme Music by: Marcos Moscat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

On game day, pain can hit hard and fast, like the headache you get when your favorite team and your fantasy team both lose. When pain comes to play, call an audible with Advil plus acetaminopin and get long-lasting dual-action pain relief for up to eight hours. Tackle your tough pain two ways with Advil plus acetaminopin. Advil, the official pain relief partner of the NFL. Ask your pharmacist at this product's rate for you. Always read and follow the label. your incredible line from season nine. I think about that line all the time.

Yeah. It's like one of the wisest, truest lines in the history of television. I wish there was a way to know you're in the good old days before you've actually left them. It is such a poignant reminder to just take stock. Yeah. Because this moment might be some serious good old days. Yeah. Dwight Shrewd versus Andy Bernard.

What do you think about that? and I were playing like essentially quite toxic characters like but you and I had a ball doing that yeah but we didn't know how rare it was that's what has locked in in hindsight it just doesn't get better than this when we're on the office we're kind of striving for the next big great thing yeah but now that we're like 10 12 15 years out it's like I just want that again yeah like I want to go back to that yeah Do I fit into this podcast space somehow? A washed up TV actor gets his old TV friends on to talk about their mental health struggles.

Rain, those shows are literally the worst. The worst. They're the worst. How does anybody watch this shit? Hey there, it's me, Rain Wilson, and I want to dig into the human experience. I want to have conversations about a spiritual revolution. Let's get deep with our favorite thinkers, friends, and entertainers about life, meaning and idiocy.

Welcome to the Soul Boom podcast. Hi, Ed. Howdy? Hey. So your new book is called Sna, Snafu. I've heard it's pretty good and, um, snafu or snafu. You have any questions for me?

How great was it to work with me for so many years? How the hell did you keep all of your hair? It's so distinguished and gray. You got a lot of hair. You're definitely... Hi. Okay. By the way, your facial hair is kicking my ass.

I can't do that. You can't do that. I can't even do that. You can't even come close to it. I try. Ed Helms, welcome to Soul Boom. I am so glad to be here. I'm really glad to see you in the flesh.

And it's really nice. We've texted a good bit. We've talked on the phone a good bit, but you live all the way out there on the east side of L.A. with the hipsters. Yeah. And I'm way out here in the suburbs. Yeah. What do you do with all the hipsters on the east side?

We sit at coffee shops and make fun of people as they walk by. Just snark. That's on brand. It's all snark. That's on brand. Sarcasm. Irony. We just live in a sort of cauldron of irony.

You know, since we're sitting here and I see you gazing fondly at that twice. bobblehead on the shelf. I did want to, I'd be remiss to not talk about our years on the office. And I was thinking about your incredible line from season nine that kind of summed up the whole show. Do you want to remind us with that? Yeah, I know. I think about that line all the time. Yeah. It's like one of the wisest, truest lines in the history of television. For real. It was, it's all Greg Daniels and I just was a vessel. I wish there was some way to know you're in the good old days before you've actually left them. Hmm.

Or something close to that. Very close to that. Yeah. It is such a poignant reminder that you're always in them or that that, that to just take stock. Yeah. Because this moment might be some serious good old days. Yeah. And.

And those nine years were. Oh, were 100%. Sure. And that's one of my great regrets in life. I have few regrets. I've made a ton of mistakes, but few regrets is, and I was sharing this with BJ, that I knew, you know, up here I knew this was a great gig.

I'm like, these people are amazing. The scripts are incredible. People, audiences love the show. It's very funny. It's very smart. I get to play this incredible, memorable character. I knew. Beloved.

Beloved iconic character. Dwight Shrut is a legend. Andy Bernard. Well, iconic. Mount Olympus of TV characters. But I knew it up here. I knew it cerebrally, but I really wish I had just spent more time

just being like, this is it. It just doesn't get better than this. I knew, again, I knew it's cerebrally. Like, wow, we are. improvising and as I was going back, I was remembering how much we improvised the Cornell stuff. Yeah. And we had so much stuff of you hitting me with the Prius and stuff.

And we just would just kind of go. And these scenes are classic. If I could just kind of like, okay, but what would you absorb them deeper? Sure. But what would that have looked like? Like what would you have done or felt different? More gratitude. Yes.

Because for me, there was a lot. lot of like, you know, it was, we were all on the office trying to get a movie career. Driving elsewhere. Right. Yeah. I'm trying to set up production companies and trying to do, you know, commercial gigs and, you know, overall deals. And, you know, and everyone was. And we had great opportunities to do, to do movies. You did hangover, obviously. And, you know, so many great films we all got to do during those years. But it was, it was like, I wasn't as present as I could have been and I wasn't as grateful as I could have been because I was always thinking like next hiatus how do I get a movie lined up or how do I get this other thing lined up and there's always

ahead of myself so I didn't I I won't say I never did but I wish a lot more I would have been like wow this is fucking amazing yes I completely agree yeah I think it's partly a function of um kind of what our business tells us to do and like prescribed for like here are the pathways here's what you're supposed to be your agents call and they're like what's your next script and so read those things there are a lot of external forces sort of telling you to keep striving and not to take stock which is unfortunate but but it's also I think a function of that the age that we were. It's harder to, I think, feel present and grateful

when you have so much life ahead of you and you're looking. It was a bit old. I was on the older end. Sure. Cass, I didn't really start playing Dwight until I was like 39 or 40. Yeah, so I was in my 40s. Yeah.

You know, Zonski was a little spring chicken. Sure, sure. But I hear you, you're young, you've been striving for a long time, all of a sudden, and you have this opportunity and doors are open. And like, hey, do you wanna write a script? Do you wanna develop material? Hey, they're interested in you for this.

Would you wanna meet with these filmmakers? Yeah. You know, and you and I both struggled for a long time before we got the office and, you know, long years of unemployment. So of course, we wanna, you wanna take advantage and rise to that opportunity as well. Yeah.

That show, it's also, there's no way to know that how special that show was, we knew, like you said, we knew that it was special. We knew that we appreciated it and loved it and loved this community that we were so lucky to be a part of. We, I think, all knew that even with the stripe, but we didn't know how rare it was. I think that's what was, that's what has locked in in hindsight is like just how special it was. We knew it was special. We loved it.

And I think we did. I think a lot of us, like, I do remember a lot of us reflecting at different times, just hanging out over the years, like, just how much we loved being a part of that at the time. You know who was great at that was Angela. Yeah. She was very good at like, isn't this great? I just love you all. And here we are. And the scene is so funny and you all are so funny.

And she was always great at kind of bringing things down in a good way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think it's really been in the, the, the year's sense where, where weirdly, like when you're in the, when, you know, when we're, when we're, when we're, when we're, we're, we're kind of striving for the next big, great thing. Yeah. But now that we're like 10, 12, 15 years out, it's like, I just want that again. Yeah.

Like, I want to go back to that. Yeah. I want to be in that. I want to be with all of that wonderful, that wonderful energy and those, those funny scripts. I was reflecting with somebody recently how special the table reads were because that was one hour a week that we were all together.

Right. Because everyone was, we were shooting our different scenes all week and sometimes there'd be conference room scenes where we're all in there together and those are great. But the table reads, it was the whole community. It was the whole office community.

It was the writers, the producers, the entire cast, and even, even some people from NBC that were, we generally liked. Yep. And they left us alone, which was good because we were working as a show. And, and, uh, I, I just always had a buzz going, like in those table reads because it was just like this electric thing. Like, what are we going to do?

What's next week? What are we going to, what's this next episode? What's it going to be? And, you know, the, the new laughs, the new jokes, the new character discoveries, the new things that the writers cooked up. And the amazing thing about it, by the way, is that when everyone was dismissed, you could stay if you wanted. And Greg would say, yeah, hang out, let us know your thoughts.

And we're gonna be talking about this and this needs to get fixed and stuff like that. Sometimes he would be like, everyone go, we need to rewrite this and we just leave us alone. But they were so open to our ideas and opinions. And that also is very rare. Yeah. What about Dwight Shute versus Andy Bernard?

What do you think about that? Looking back on that, it was such a, it was a treat getting ready to talk with you and go back and look at some of the. I wish I had rewatched some of that stuff. There was always such a wonderful kind of tension and one-upsmanship between us, which I loved for Michael's attention, for power within the office, for Angela for a couple of seasons. But I thought they wrote that balance so nicely where we didn't hate each other. Well, no. And it ended up being a really fabulous kind of camaraderie and mutual respect.

I think this is part of the miracle of that show, which is that we, you and I were playing like essentially quite toxic characters, like, you know, or at least like characters that might maybe had like warm hearts, but some real toxic. and difficult traits and, and social traits, maybe. And coping mechanisms and so forth. But you and I had a ball doing that. And like portraying that and that the joy that we felt

and the ways that we made each other laugh and all those scenes where we're like, where Dwight and you're just like at it, but we were making, just making each other laugh. Yeah. And I think that, that, that, whatever that energy was that we really had, despite our character's behavior,

is what an audience knew or felt at some level. Yeah. And the same goes for all of the, you know, as toxic or antisocial as Michael Scott was in so many ways. Like, he's so beloved because I think, the the true the the the the the the joy and compassion that we brought to performing those things and and us as as people being in the same space together and having an energy that we loved and cherished with each other no matter what these characters are doing I always think that that the so much of the lasting appeal of that show which has been so surprising yeah like this and but this is just me. looking back trying to kind of like understand it better i i always think like it's the it's the joy and the fun and the um just that that kind of giddy delight that we all have felt yeah really felt making those those scenes

and uh and like i said didn't matter how toxic the scene was we were laughing and having fun doing it i mean as you're saying that i'm thinking about like how balzy was it that here's a show and kind of the three leaders of the office you know steve you and me as Dwight were really kind of despicable, clueless, selfish, anti-social weirdos. And we're kind of like at the center of like running the office. Do you know what I mean? And a lesser show would have had like one office weirdo.

There were a lot of other ancillary weirdos, like you know, creed and whatnot. But, um, That was a bold move to have so many anti-heroes. You know, it's funny, it wasn't for everybody. My parents did not get it. My parents were of a generation where you don't sit in awkward moments, which is the entire tone of the show.

The premise, yeah. The entire premise of that show's humor is to sit in discomfort and stew and like in people's awkwardness. and, and toxicity. And my parents, God bless them, Southern, like, you make peace, you keep your company comfortable. You make them comfortable. You have small talk that would fill in any uncomfortable silence.

And if something gets weird, you redirect, and, you know, you become like, I feel like a lot of Southern grace and Southern charm is really just mass, is like being a magician. like a misdirect master. You kind of like like the minute something's weird or uncomfortable, it's like look over here. There's this is this is pretty.

Yeah. Yeah. Let's have let's talk about this or let's talk, you know. And, and so I remember that my parents early on, eventually I think they grew to love it and understand it. But those first few seasons I was on there were just kind of like, it's hard for us to watch.

It's hard to watch. It's hard to watch. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dad used to wear around a Dwight Shrewd sweatshirt, when the very first merchandising dropped in like season three or something like that.

And then people would be like, oh, I love that show. And be like, that's my, that's my son. Oh, yeah. He was, he, he loved it. He couldn't get enough of it. But what do you, when fans approach you, I imagine they do, do do do cornell herd of it.

Yeah. And what else, what else do you get approached with? Nard dog. Nard dog. Yeah, that's the big tuna. People call me Big Tuna, which is ironic because I called Jim Big Tuna. Right. That's not your nickname.

They say to me, like, my favorite line is Bears Beats Battlestar Galactica, which I never said. Is that? Jim says it. Oh, that's so funny. When he's impersonating Dwight. Of course. That's so funny. Can you sign that or can you say it to my friend on the phone?

It's like, I never said that line. That's getting a little persnickety. No, of course. But even I remember that as a Dwight line. It's like, oh, that's so funny. Yeah. But yeah, even my agent for years called me Big Tuna. And it's like, it's like, have you watched the show, buddy?

Like, but, but and then that became its own joke. But, but yeah, Big Tuna and probably the Nardot. People have shown me tattoos that they like, Nard dog tattoos, not on their butt. Like I, like, yeah, like Andy did. Yeah. But, um, but that's always. One guy asked me recently on my book tour for Snafu,

a guy asked me to sign his arm and he showed me, because he was gonna get it tattooed. And he showed me someone else's signature that was tattooed. I can't remember who it was. Yeah. Another actor he'd had signed his arm and had had it tattooed. That's a lot of pressure. I didn't do it.

I was like not doing that. I'm not like. Because what if you mess, you mess up or it's like shaky or? Yeah. And by the way, that other signature did not look good. And I was like, you know what? You can, I'll sign your book. Yeah.

And then you can like Xerox that or Xerox. You can take a picture of it and have your tattoo art. You should have just gone like, that's my real signature. Like, hey, ha. Look, folks, I love control. I like deciding when I do things, how I do things, and preferably why I do them. So waiting in line to mail a package? Uh, yeah, no.

That's a big no from me. But with Stamps.com, I can mail anything. Documents, packages, a handwritten apology note to my third grade music teacher, write from my desk or even my toilet. That's between me and my conscience. And Mrs. Larkin, who never completely recovered from my bassoon solo in 1983. Stamps.com connects with all the big marketplaces. It gives you exclusive United States Postal Service and UPS rates,

and their rate advisor does the math. for you because frankly I didn't get into spirituality podcasting to calculate shipping zones and the app you can schedule a pickup you can print postage you can ship packages from basically anywhere have more flexibility in your life with stamps.com sign up at stamps.com and use the code soul boom to get four weeks free plus free postage and a free digital scale no long-term commitments or contracts just go to stamps.com code soul boom in preparation for this This interview, I watched your Cornell speech. Oh, wow.

Commencement speech from a while back. Yeah. Wisdom is too often just a fancy word for cynicism. And foolishness is a condescending word for joy, wonder, and curiosity. It was so good, man. Thank you. It was so funny. And I loved how you were talking with your thesis.

Because I did one of those graduation speeches. Blood alone moves the wheels of history. No, no. No, no, no, no, stop. What am I thinking? What am I think? That's terrible. I'm quoting from a long canceled television show.

It's really hard. You're like, because, you know, everyone's done one. Steve Jobs has done one. Bill Gates and big thinkers and PhDs and... It's very hard to find new, new ground. New territory. Yeah. Yeah.

But I thought this, your thesis of like, because you're talking about being cynical, it reminded me your thesis of, the talk was like, embrace being the fool. You know, embrace the fool. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and be the fool. Be the fool.

And you know, and you shared these really vulnerable stories from your life about your fuck-ups and being more goofy and striving to be kind of more open. How, that was about 10 years ago or so. How, and of course you were a big Cornell hero. Or villain. Or villain, yeah. Because I imagine someone who graduates from Cornell,

They hear that all the time. Yeah, they're like, enough with the same. Oh, mighty, Bruno. And I rewatched our scenes of Dwight enrolling in Cornell. Are you interviewing Dwight to interview? Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I watched it on YouTube before this.

But I thought that speech was really, like, apt and beautiful. And, you know, I have a son who's in college and just really perfect. What's your, what's your take on it now 10 years after be a full speech at Cornell? I haven't thought about that speech in quite a while. I'm glad you brought it up. I remember preparing for that and watching a ton of commencement speeches and realizing like, oh, wow, these are even the great ones. And you can go on these lists of like the top 100 commencement speeches or whatever.

And you and George Saunders has a great one. There's, yeah, of course. And then David Foster Wallace. Yeah, I was the infinite jest guy. Yeah, I was like, yeah, what's his name again? Yeah, there's so many, there's so many amazing, Bradley Whitford had a great one. Fucking a winner.

Yeah, right? You realize that they are all, I sort of got analytical about it and was like, okay, it's, this is every, every one of these speeches is some version of Carpe Diem. That's really all they boiled down to. Interesting. Which is like the most valuable message to give to a kid.

Means seize the day. Seize the day. Carta Diem. that really is what you should be telling kids coming out of college. Right. It's to like, you know, strive and thrive and like, and get after it. And so then it was like, okay, that's really what everybody's saying in some, in all these different kinds of ways.

What's my way? And you're funny and you're a clown and a comedian as well as a satirist. So you want to bring, you don't want to go in and be like all hyper serious. Right. You know, they want Ed Helms. Yeah. They want. What's your spin on that story?

Yeah. And so, and then it was like, well, to, to seize the day and in my view is to is to be vulnerable and to be like, to get after it is to not be afraid of failing. And, and then I started, I just sort of kind of was riffing on. on those, that idea and it just crystallized like, oh, that's just being a fool, like not being afraid to be a fool. Yeah. In a social setting, in an emotional setting, in a professional setting.

Yeah. And fool, obviously is a sort of a goofy term, but it really just means like, don't be afraid to fall on your face. To fuck up. And mistakes. Which is so hard. Yeah. It's like the most inhibiting thing in life.

is that fear of like falling on your face. Especially to teenagers and young adults. And I'm telling you in these days, because I've interacted quite a few young adults with my kid and other talks and stuff I've given at college campuses, like the idea of like, because now everyone has phones. So any failure, you talked about,

you talked about shooting that music video, you convince your friend with his band, shoot the music video, and you were like, I got it, this is gonna be great, I'm gonna take care of it, and you were a budding filmmaker, filmmaker and you just fucked it up and the video was terrible and but but nowadays everyone at that music video shoot would have been documenting your failure and posting it or streaming it at the same

time right so can you imagine amplified by a thousand you know your failure of shooting that particular music video so that the stakes are so high and the the fear of putting oneself out and being laughed at mocked having it posted is is is just sheer terror to so many kids in their 20s these days uh that makes a lot of sense and it's very tragic yeah i was talking to a a friend who's a college professor in uh in in on the east coast and and he was saying the exact same thing that that part of his what what he's constantly trying to to impart to his students is, is to like take chances because there, there is this kind of like, I don't know, collective apprehension.

Yeah. Apprehension and social media, like, is there anything good? Is there any positive thing from social media? Like, you can, there was that initial, like, wave of like, oh, it's connecting disparate people and who might need community and can't find it where they are. Sure. But I feel like even that has tipped over. Like it's not, it's not offering, it's now not offering like wholesome connection for anybody.

I think it provides great distraction when you're pooping. Because the other day I had to poop and I didn't have my phone and I was like remembering like the 90s. It's like, I used to poop. without a phone. Maybe a magazine. Maybe. Yeah. Maybe a magazine.

Oh my God. You're so right. But it's like I can't poop without a phone. I mean, I can play chess on chess.com, make my next move, or watch a couple Instagram reels or YouTube reels. And if we could relegate social media to pooping only, I think we might have hope as a society. Yeah. But now that it's like taken over.

And kids are getting their news from it too. So I was passing around this article. I'll send it to you by this guy, Ted Gaiolia, or however you say his name, the honest broker. And he has this incredible chart, which is a giant fish called addiction. Because these algorithms are so addictive, right? And it's going like this,

chomping and getting a fish called distraction. and then that fish is chumping on a smaller fish called entertainment, and that fish is chumping on the tiniest little fish called art. And I love that idea that, you know, addiction, which is addictive algorithms that just keep you, I can't even have most of these apps on my phone because I'll just look at, I'll waste hours a day, just scrolling through them, thumbing through them.

Or stay up, lose sleep. You'll lose sleep. Yeah. Yeah. But addiction, subsuming distraction, which is different than entertainment. It's just distract, like 15 second videos, 30 second videos are just distraction.

Yeah. And my son will show me the phone all the time. Look, and it's like a dog throwing up. And then it's a guy singing in a ukulele and falling over. And then it's, you know, a boat accident. And then it's just distraction. It's barely even entertainment. Yeah.

And then, you know, you've got like Mission Impossible entertainment, you know, in the movie theater. And then art, like a little bit of art out there. and it's a scary time to live in because there's always been distraction and entertainment kind of battling art. I think the office kind of wrestled between like entertainment and art.

And fortunately, a lot of times we were able to lean toward the art side of entertainment, which I'm so grateful for. But scary times to live in when you add that addictive element. Yeah, I don't know if you know Tristan Harris. Do you know who that is?

No. Oh, wow. He's a really remarkable kind of thought leader in the, he's one of the founders of the Center for Humane Technology, which was early on. The social dilemma? Yes. Yeah.

He's the, I think the force behind it. The main guy. And the main guy in it. Yeah. And he, he, so,

so yes, the social dilemma obviously talks a lot about the, um, how, we are so powerless against these algorithms because they're so, well, they're so powerful and they're so advanced and our brains are so primal. And they've become, it's just an unfair fight is the way he puts it. It's like we are pretty helpless up against these things because they, they're capitalizing on, on brain functions that we don't control. And we don't, we're not even,

oftentimes aware of. He's also now, the Center for Humane Technology is focusing a lot now on AI and some of the dangers and potentials and hopes of AI. Now the movie Her has completely come real. Oh, yeah. And people are dating AI avatars that are having like virtual sex with them

on their computer chats. And I was reading an article about one of the AI platforms monetized. It used to kind of be free. And then if you wanted to do like sex chat with your virtual boyfriend, girlfriend, avatar, you had to pay. And a lot of people, like, couldn't afford to pay. And people were like getting suicidal because their AI boyfriend and girlfriend was no longer available to have sex with them.

Wow. And I'm laughing. 10% I'm laughing and 90% I'm heartbroken. Yeah. Well, it's, I mean, look, relationships are with fellow humans are messy and, and they're not 100% fun. Yep. And sometimes you have to be a fool to be in one and make big mistakes. But if you're with, if there's some algorithm that has figured you out, that's, and everything that they say is the perfect thing for the perfect moment.

that is going to work on your brain in ways that you don't control, and it's going to release endorphins that and feelings of love. And I feel like we're all susceptible to these things if we're not careful. Absolutely. And it should be said, too, that young people have way more endorphins in their brain. They have way more dopid. Yeah. And so, you know, when these algorithms work,

They're, whatever we're feeling, whatever kind of addictive hit we get from our phones and from social media is times 10 with someone who's 20 years old. Yeah. You know what? This got dark fast. Maybe it's good. Maybe it's like, maybe it's awesome. Maybe we should just like lean in, right? Cheryl Sandberg.

Tune out. Like lean in to the technology. I don't know. So many things have to be. reinvented, like history. There's a transition for you. Ed, it's been such a pleasure to get to know your wondrous and funny and illuminating

an absolutely insane book, Snafu, and history's greatest screw-ups. And what do you have, like, 50 stories in here of 34? 34 stories of historical screw-ups. ups that you cannot for a second believe. And you have a number one podcast by the same name. And I was just thinking as I was preparing to talk to you today about like, oh, add to Ed Helms' glowing resume, a historian, because here's how I experience you. Okay. Like, you're super smart. You go to Oberlin. This is like getting to know you during the office. And then I'm like,

how did you get started? It's like, I was an editor. It's like, okay, so he can edit as well. And then it's like, then I did stand up for years. So you're like literally a standup comic like you could walk into like a, you know, the comedy seller and do 11 minutes of jokes. Not right now, but seven and a half, three.

I don't know. Yeah, but in the day. Yeah. And then obviously we're on the daily show. You're an amazing actor. Your range is incredible, not just comedy. I've seen you do stuff that's really dramatic and beautiful, poignant as well.

And then like you're the biggest like banjo shredder of all times and I need you to not be like falsely modest. Like you're crazy on the banjo. I mean it's not like, oh, here's an actor who, you know, picked up the banjo and can play a few licks. Like you're, you're jamming with the, what is it, the bluegrass situation and all of these artists that come in that you,

that you, the lonesome trio and all the artists you play with, you sing like an angel and like you write. Now you're a historian. Like, and I remember you on the office, like you were always building the little models. What were you building like Star Wars?

Oh, yeah. Models. That's so funny. So many things you've forgotten it. Yeah, I would, you're not so good in memory. That is true. That is a, that's,

you're kind of like, it's funny, you're sort of describing my age. ADHD right now in a very real way. Like this is like my attention and focus jumps around so much. Are you, but this is something for real for you that you totally for real. Have you something you've therapeutized about and studied and yeah pondered?

Yeah. This is a more recent diagnosis or? It's been a, it was a sort of gradual realization that I was a candidate for, for, for this. And then I went and was like, and there was, I just was, I think having. kids and like getting um really starting to juggle uh like when you start out in show business

it's so uh selfish really it's like a career it's like a selfish career it's like you really are like just kind of chasing the things that um this this dream that you have and it's it's it's all about you it's very self and you want to be selfish center stage yeah and and as life transitioned and it's it's sort of a singular focus and as life transitioned into having like an extremely beautiful and serious relationship and that turns into a family, I found myself like really struggling with, with, just grappling with a kind of the sort of spread of responsibilities in a way that was, that I was observing as different from other people. It was like, okay, this is, this is interesting. Like, what can I, uh, I started reading

more about, uh, possibilities, uh, and ADHD emerged. And it, it was a little bit of a, a buzzword for a while. So I kind of was like not taking it seriously. Like everybody's got a everybody says they have ADHD. Everyone in Hollywood's got ADHD. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. And, um, but it really started to click. I read a book. called Driven to Distraction, which is kind of the original kind of academic text on on ADHD or ADD, as it was called at the time. And I just, I wept reading that book. Wow. It was like, oh my God, this feels real. Like, this feels kind of like, this is cutting deep. What was real about it? How does it manifest for you? It was sort of enumerating the typical struggles of a person with ADHD. And

And these are the things that I think we are taught to have shame about because it's a lot of executive functioning things. It's a lot of like staying organized, staying like a lot of just basic life functions that are very natural and I think taken for granted by so many people. but but I found myself really struggling with and and you know long-term planning is extremely anxiety inducing for me I'm so good in the 11th hour like I can I can really execute at a high level in a panicky mode and that is like classic ADHD like because the act of like if I need to plan something two or three months out and you sit down with me and they're like, okay,

so what are the steps we need to take to get there in three months? Let's set like weekly kind of goals and deadlines to get to this thing. I'm like, what are you talking about? I don't even know where to start. Like that freaks me out. That completely freaks me out. I will punt and punt and punt until I get to a week before. And then I'm like in panic mode, but I get psyched and I get focused. Is it like a hyperfocus thing that sets in? Yes. Yeah, you're like, you know you have to do it deadlines. Yes. You're good with deadlines, yeah.

Well, no, I mean, I'm. And last minute deadlines. Last minute, yeah, but then I have to push everything else aside. And I can't like deal with life things, like important things, meaning like whatever. These are very hard things on a relationship. They're very hard things on a, on work, you know, yeah, structures. And so this is also what I'm reading about and just kind of like, oh, there are other people that act this way.

Or it also just kind of gave me a framework to see it, to see some of that behavior as like, oh, this isn't just me being lazy or me being like procrastinating. Like these are, maybe there's a little bit of a different framework. I can look at this under. And that's why I wept because it was like a, It was an opening to a sort of a self-love that in an area of myself that I just felt so much shame

and anger about, about my own kind of patterns and behaviors. And suddenly it was like, oh, here's a way that I can, a framework through which I can actually see this in a positive way or just in a compassionate way towards myself. that led to a full neuropsychiatric evaluation, which was very intense, like a couple of days.

And they were like, yes, this is a thing that you have. You got a sticker certificate. I got the diploma. Yeah, the very dubious diploma. And I kind of knew it in my gut that that would be the takeaway. way. And it was, so in some ways it was gratifying. In some ways, it was sort of like, oh, okay, good. This is, right. Like I can now. The diagnosis that helped you see clearly what was going. It helped coalesce all these kind of

different struggles and confusions and fears and angers throughout my life. But it also confirmed that I have work to do. And that was a scary thing. And so I'm in that process. And this was only a couple years ago that I went through, like, that I actually got the neuropsych evaluation. That's probably about a decade of like ramping into clarity.

And then I was like, I have to do something. I have to do something here. I just want to give a big thank you and a gigantic shout out to one of our sponsors. The Fetzer Institute. In an era where mental health is a growing concern, Fetzer's insights into the role of spirituality

and building resilience isn't just timely, it's essential. They offer hope for what so many of us are seeking. Thank you for your support. Fetzer, visit them at fetzer.org. You know, it's interesting, because if you read the work of or listen to interviews with Dr. Gabor Mote, who is amazing,

and he wrote another book about ADHD, called scattered minds that is also was also life changing for me. It's so he is such a beautiful thinker. Yeah. In that, in not just ADHD, but in child rearing. Yeah. And addiction. And just, but he just comes from such a deep, a place of deep compassion.

Yeah. And I find his, his work and his words so stirring and moving. But did you find a connection? and we don't have to unpack your childhood or anything, but he talks a lot about how stuff like procrastination and even depression and ADHD anxiety have their roots in childhood trauma and childhood wiring it.

It is a brain chemistry issue, but it's also greatly influenced by trauma. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that was another, it definitely kind of, reframed or gave another perspective on on some of the the harder aspects of my childhood that and then yeah another lens to kind of look at and again another opening for self-compassion because that's what I think is was such a struggle and such an unfortunate legacy of some of the

the hard things in my childhood that was like a struggle for self-love, right? And I think a lot of people in show business honestly share that. Struggle with show. Yeah. Love. Yeah. I mean, it can be, a show business can just be a very tragic like pursuit of external love to fill that void. Sure. But in there. But I think it's been, you know, a long journey. in trying to just confront a lot of things with honesty. And it took a long time. I even started therapy in my late 20s,

but it took a long time to get to a place where that therapy became really about self-compassion, which I think is one of the most important things for us to learn. I think it's the most important thing to learn through the therapeutic process, 100%. And I used to be, I was raised in the South, and therapy is for psychos.

Like it's not, no one goes to therapy. Yeah. It's for people with like serious problems or whatever. And newsflash, like most of us have serious problems. Like that's the thing. But in the South, like, we repress those or we just don't talk about them. And if you do talk about them, you're weak or whatever.

Or like it just, I mean, I just feel like there's so much cultural, uh, kind of, uh, resistance to therapy, depending on where you're from or what context kind of, and I certainly grew up in that context. And it wasn't, it wasn't overt. It wasn't like, uh, don't you dare go to therapy, you weak psycho. It was more just kind of a general like, yeah, a sort of judgment. A little judgment and a little bit of, um, uh, stink to it.

Hmm. You know? Yeah. Yeah. I just remember so vividly in my 20s going through a really hard moment. I went through a breakup and I was, I was struggling professionally. I'd gotten on the Daily Show, which was incredibly exciting, but I was like really,

it was, I was kind of in this dip. And there was, it, it was such a constellation of scary and, unsettling and unfamiliar feelings and anxieties. And I remember my roommate's brother was hanging out with us one day. And he was like, he was in grad school at Columbia. And he was like, yeah, I just got back from therapy. And I was like, what are you in therapy for? Because again, like my whole, my whole frame.

You're not crazy. Yeah, I was like, you're not psycho. It's like to be institutionalized. He was like, and he goes, he was like, yeah. Oh, I just went to, I just got back. from therapy, like, what are you in therapy for? And he goes, well, well, to just like get learned about myself. And I'm like, okay, wait, what are you, what, what are you talking about? And he goes, well, my student health plan at Columbia offers therapy. So I was like, why wouldn't

I do it? Yeah. And I'm like, what, what kind of you, you mean you just like are going to therapy like for no specific reason yeah like not because you like are psycho or you know what and he's like no no i just like if it's free like why wouldn't i sure this day and it was like this whole perspective on therapy that i'd never heard and never even thought of that it's like this beneficial thing that you can just do and and you don't have to go in with some giant piece of baggage you can just kind of go in with curiosity. And I was like blown away. Because I really liked this guy.

And I was like, that's such a cool, cool way to approach this thing. Wow. And that was my first bridge into therapy. I started going to a therapist. And, yeah. And I benefited massively. So massive, like transformatively. Wow.

And I still am. I'm sort of in and out over the last, you know, 15 years, but yeah, I just think it's, it's just that, that humility, the humility to walk in with curiosity about yourself. Yeah. And like to, to know that you don't know it all about yourself. I think, and that you're willing to learn. Yeah. I think I was raised with this sort of idea, a little bit of a macho thing of like,

you are what you are. You know you. Like, you get, I get me. Like, what? What else is there? Like I have my thoughts. I think this. I feel this.

I know how I'm going to react to that. I know how I operate. We don't know shit. We have our reactions to things are so primal. And they're so like you mentioned, like they're so rooted in these childhood traumas. And sometimes like there are a lot of traumas that people go through that are not, they're not even aware that those,

that they're traumas. Like, you know, depending on your family dynamics. depending on on the way that you know like let's say the great Santini is a great movie and that the father figure Robert Duval is unbelievably abusive like he's emotionally abusive I grew up in again in a sort of like I think fairly typical southern macho tradition of like that's just a tough dad Like right. That's just a tough dad. Run of the male tough dad. Like yeah.

And like love and he's, but, but he's good. That's a good, that's like a. He made him a damn good basketball player. Yeah. Right. And like those kids in that movie are traumatized. Yeah. I think it's,

it's very empowering to realize like that that we don't understand ourselves as well as we think. Yeah. And the humility that it takes to sort of start to chase that down. Yeah. Is really beautiful. And, weirdly kind of fun. I mean, it's scary and painful in so many ways

depending on how aggressively you go after it. But it's also, it's hopeful. It's like so full of hope. I always boil it down also to a time thing. Now, there is a cost issue, and some people are struggling to make the rent, and they don't have the ability to pay an extra 100, $200, $300, $300 a session or whatever.

So there is that. But if you have the means, the idea that you're, you know, how much time do you spend a week working out? How much time do you spend cooking? How much time do you spend on hobbies or watching TV or looking and thumbing through your phone? Like, can you spend 50 minutes out of this week of seven days of 24 hours each to just take some time to kind of look at your behavior patterns and your emotional state? Yeah. And it's funny. The author Jonathan Haidt talks.

about the rider and the elephant. And this concept is very popular in positive psychology, and it has to do with, we think we're very logical beings. Like when confronted, we think that we're always making reasonable, calculated, logical decisions. But it's the elephant that's making the decisions for us, which is our trauma. It's the force of our emotions.

Yes. It's our reactivity and our defensiveness and our fears. And we're so often living our lives being guided by irrational forces. Yeah, yeah. It's also, it evokes the work of Daniel Kahneman. Do you know the behavioral economist? I've heard of it, but I haven't read him.

Wrote an incredible book, Thinking Fast and Slow, which is a very dense read, but worth it. It's so eye-opening. It's everything you're saying about how, like, what guides our choices can be so prime. or rooted in things so far outside of our logical minds. And what's really wild too is when you think about how traditional economists evaluate, you know,

society and evaluate commerce. And it's all based on rational decision-making. Right, right. And so economics as a sort of was traditional economics as a study, capitalism, all these things like, are rooted in the essential. assumption that people behave rationally and that people behave based on rational incentives. But Daniel Kahneman's work shows us and the work of a lot of his peers, we are so much

messier than that. Right. And so many of the economic theories and behavioral theories throughout. Yeah. Like you want a salsa from the grocery store. and economists say we're going to buy the cheapest one with the best quality, but then people go in and buy the one with the funniest label or something they loved when they were a child.

Totally. There's emotional impulses in the consumer marketplace everywhere you turn. Exactly. And there's so many things like that. They're so surprising to learn about the way we make choices. Yeah. I told the story before, but it's so funny, I had an interview with Pete Holmes,

and he was talking about this incredible guy, Rupert Spira, and who's a non-dualist spiritual kind of meditation thinker. And I was talking to my wife. I was like, oh, my God, I'm listening to this Rupert Spira. It's incredible. And this guy and we're all one. And his meditations are incredible. And I was driving down the 101 and someone cut me off.

I was like, God damn it, where the fuck did you learn to drive? Jesus, you should see this person. And my wife's like, maybe you should go back to the podcast. I didn't even realize it. I didn't even realize it. It wasn't even like a joke. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's great.

But let's go back to the ADHD thing. And thanks for kind of outing yourself and talking about your struggles. I think a lot of people will relate. And I've seen a lot of things online recently about procrastination. There's various apps and things that you can help. And that's connected to ADHD procrastination.

And it's connected to trauma. And I think a lot of people feel a lot of shame about procrastination, I've certainly dealt with this at various points in my life, but it's, you know, whatever that resistance is, whatever that block is, keeping you from doing something, probably has some kind of emotional or traumatic underpinning as well as a neurochemical one. What have you found effective for your ADHD? I mean, medication or apps or, you know, to-do lists, or how do you talk to your wife,

Sarah about it or have you found tools that have been helpful? I wish I could just spell out a roadmap that people could kind of like latch on to. It still feels it it still feels very hard and confusing. What the diagnosis has given me is a compass to kind of navigate through the wilderness, but I'm still in the wilderness, honestly. And I am actually very, sadly, very cynical about so much of the ADHD kind of products that are out there, whether they're apps or journals or whatever, just because I look, I read them and I'm like, this is appealing to all of what, this is like appealing to my ADHD.

the impulse to fix or like my impulsivity. It's like, oh, this is the thing. And I think and one of the things I've always struggled with is like chasing, it's like this idea that if I just do that, it'll fix everything. If I just buy that, if I just have this little thing. And I feel like so many ADHD products and apps and the things that show up in my reels and whatever

are just preying on that impulse control that ADHD people suffer from. And so, a lot of people, honestly, a lot of people can picture someone with ADHD, like ordering every app and book. Absolutely. Subscribing the five different things for $8.99 a month. And like just, there's a, there's a wonderful publication called, uh, attitude that is with spelled with two Ds for ADD. And, um, and that has been a wonderful resource.

It just, in just kind of, I think, what is this thing of what you describe? Magazine. Publication, I think I said. Did I say magazine? I don't know. They're not even listening. I, uh, it, what is this thing of which you speak?

Publication. Oh boy. We're gone. Um, but it's, it's made me feel, it's helped me feel part of a larger, uh, human experience. Yeah. And that I think is also, uh, helpful.

Yeah. And it, it does have resources in it. I'm still, um, Um, you know, I do have a therapist and we do talk about, um, we do talk about very practical things. I think to do lists do help me a lot. And I find them kind of mandatory to keep and to have. But the problem is I don't, I'll make to do list. I'll do the download, but then I won't look at the to do list because I'm like chasing, uh,

all these rabbits. And I'm like, I'll look at it in a second. And my brain is just like doing parkour of like all the distractions around me or just all the things like I'm going to go, I'm going to practice my banjo. I'm going to learn this. I'm just going to learn this banjo song real quick.

And then like 90 minutes later. Yeah. I'm like, I got to sit down and work. And it's just, it's such a, um, it's like a picture of very elaborate flow chart of like with like a million different,

uh, like avenues and branches and roots and tangles. Like one of those FBI shows when they have the board with all the lines, the photos, a serial killer. And what you're saying is that I'm a psycho. And I think you're right. Yeah, they're tracking a serial killer. There's yarn connecting like disparate ideas and things. And that's that is often how it feels.

And it can be like a trap. It's like a spider web. But what the benefits are, you know, this whole conversation started because you're, so damn good at so many things. Plus, we left out fly fishing and like making flies, right? Then you used to do that? Well, I do fly fish, and I, but I haven't.

I saw you with those little, I think you were fixing some flies or something like that. Where was that? On the set. You had flies. I think, yeah, I do, I fly fish and I love, I do love to fly fish. We spend our summers in Idaho

where my wife is from. I haven't gone down the rabbit hole of fly fish of fly tying. Okay, yeah. I mean, I, I, I've dabbled, but maybe I saw you dabbling. But that is, that is a dangerous road for me to go down. Oh, because we were talking about, this all started because we were talking about what I was fidgeting with at my desk during office production. Yeah, you were painting like Star Wars little figurines you were making out of like matchbooks and like construction paper. Yeah, so, so office supplies.

I would make little X-wing fighters out of binder clips and erasers and all these. It's just like sitting there. We'd be shooting scenes, but like, you know, we were in the background. Sure. A thousand scenes where you don't do anything. I was playing online chess as. Yeah, which is probably better for your brain. But I have a whole.

Did you keep any of those? Tell me you did. No. I didn't keep them. But I have a, I do have good photographs of them because the, our. set photographer whose name is escaping me. Or is it, who grows in.

A production, not Chris. Okay. Our production designer. Michael, Gallenberg? Yes. Michael would take, would came in one day and was like,

I got to, I got to take, I got to get pictures of these. And he took a whole bunch of pictures. And I have those. Oh, nice. So they're cool. Someone can recreate them for you.

I should post them on the next May 4th. There you go. But this is what we're talking about. Like, yes, You know, listen, I've talked a lot about my mental health struggles and depression and anxiety and addiction and all kinds of things. And, um, but at the same time, I'm kind of blessed because those, those demons kind of drove me to kind of get shit done and, and move forward and create and, you know, not just be content with being still. and your wide-ranging skill set is is pretty is pretty astonishing.

That's very nice to say. And I do, I do wonder if like, I have chased a lot of hobbies over the years. And thankfully, a few have really stuck. And I think it is a combination of that ADHD sort of scatter approach to so many things. Well, I don't know. And like hyper focus at times. When you need to hyper focus. Well, let's turn the page a little bit.

I said at the beginning how much I've been loving your book and podcast and audiobook of SNAPU. What does SNAPU mean or stand for? For the uninitiated. It's from World War II soldiers. You know, the military loves an acronym. Sure. And this acronym stands for Situation Normal, all fucked up. Okay.

So it's just kind of like, it's come to mean in sort of the modern lexicon to just be a terrible situation or a disaster. And I think it can apply to everything from like, you know, dropping a carton of eggs on the kitchen floor to like massive like world catastrophes. It's just sort of a nice general use word. Yeah. How did you get started? because the whole first conversation started with like, you're good at all of these various things and now add to that historian,

which I had no idea. I mean, I'm sure you have researchers helping you a plenty, but have you always been kind of a closet historian? Well, I vaguely remember you reading books about the Civil War before in the day. Sure. Was that one of your interests? But how did this,

how did the whole SNAFU universe come to you or you come to it. So again, and this is something that's come into focus recently, but as a kid, I would, I just love chasing down, going down weird curiosity rabbit holes. So which I think is, is an ADD thing.

But I would just sit on the living room floor with our World Book Encyclopedia books and just thumb through them and read random things about the world. Do you do have World Book Encyclopedias or Euclpicta or any of that? Botanica, yeah. Took a giant shelf.

Huge bookshelf. Now it's called Wikipedia or Google. But I had my assistant print out Wikipedia. Oh, really? Yeah. And it's in three warehouses down in the, no, I'm just kidding. But yeah, so that was, that's that,

and then also we had a couple of bookshel full of national geographics. And so I just always loved these little episodes of history or artifacts of time and, uh, and, and, and just learning about random things.

I don't know why. I just, it's fun. It's like a good little brain exercise. Yeah. And they're fun to talk about. They're fun to bring up later. They're great conversation points.

Um, and, and sometimes, they're instructive. Like sometimes you learn something about human behavior or, uh, or about sort of like how some, some cultural phenomenon and you're like, oh, wow, I never knew it came from that. Uh, and so cut to 40 years later, um, podcasting is blowing up. Mm-hmm. Case in point. Hey. You're crushing it. Welcome. Wilson, you're crushing it. Wilson. You're crushing it.

And, uh, I start, uh, I start. wondering, do I fit into this podcast space somehow? Like, should I do one of those interview shows? And I was like, I don't know. It seems like this is one of those dumb interview shows where honestly they're a washed up TV actor. Gets his old TV friends on to talk about their mental health struggles. Rain, those shows are literally the worst.

The worst. They're the worst. How does anybody watch this shit? Dumb joke. I have a huge soul boom fan, by the way, across the board. You're very kind. And we're now three seasons in on the podcast. And the podcast is different from the book because it's very deep.

Deep dive. It's like deep dive. The entire season is one thing. Right. And it's heavily researched, highly produced. It's a very immersive listening experience. It's great for road trips. Yeah.

I'm so, so proud of it. Like, it has been, it's been a preposterous amount of work. I didn't. I'm not expected to be this much work, but I'm so proud of it. And I've learned so much doing it. I've learned so much about myself. I've learned so much about these particular stories. And I love it.

And then the book just became this like obvious natural spin-off. And it also became an opportunity to do so many more snafus, unlike the podcast, which is deep dives. The book is more just kind of episodic. Each chapter is like a new story. I can't believe that these things happened. I mean, I just, I just, it has just absolutely blown my mind, some of these stories. Yeah. Like, tell us the Jimmy Carter story, which is kind of like the craziest making of an American president in a trial by fire you've ever heard.

And nobody knows this story. Nobody knows it. Yeah, I'm pretty well read and I'm a huge Carter fan. I had no idea. Yeah. He kind of saved the world. I love this story because no one knows it. And because I'm a giant Jimmy Carter fan,

I grew up in a Southern Democrat household in Georgia. Jimmy Carter was a hero to our family. And unfortunately, his sort of has like kind of a wimpy reputation. He was a badass. This story like proves what a badass he was. So it's the 1950s. There's a like nuclear reactors are brand new. Right.

This one, they've built one in, in Chalk River or Deep River, Ontario. It's called the Chalk River reactor. And it's, there's a terrible accident, which is its own kind of Homer Simpson little episode. It really did feel like.

Yeah, it's such a. Someone dropped the donut and the reactor core. It's like, it's like, it literally, It's like that silly, but basically a meltdown starts. It's the first nuclear meltdown in human history. Yeah. They don't know.

Canada. Yeah. They don't know what to do. I mean, they know what to do, but there's just, it's so overwhelming and so intense. They call the U.S. military. They're like, can you help us with this? And the U.S. is like, well, we have this young guy who works on our nuclear subs. And he's really brilliant and we'll send him up there.

he brings a team of people and that's a 25 year old or 28 year old Jimmy Carter and he gets there the the it's melting down the core of this reactor is already so radioactive and so dangerous

that the workers can only be exposed to it for 90 seconds at a time but they have to dismantle the thing so they build a replica of it on a tennis court nearby and they start rehearsing this process to dismantle this reactor core. It's like a scene from Mission Impossible. Totally.

We have to rehearse dismantling this bomb. And they rehearse it and they start sending teams in one at a time like a NASCAR pit crew, just like this is getting, you know, starting to dismantle the thing. Every 90 seconds they come out, they send in a new crew. And the whole time they're replicating what they're doing on the one that they've built so that they can keep track of it. Eventually Carter is one of the last. people in there, they get this thing dismantled and they save the reactor from a,

from a total meltdown. It's a partial meltdown, but it could have been so much worse, like Chernobyl bad. Yeah. And it just took incredible guts. It took incredible, you know, intellect in the face of disaster. Yeah. Can you imagine trying to like put a coherent plan together with under that much pressure? No.

It's utterly terrified. With the possibility of like human and environmental destruction right around the corner, it's crazy. And win-win, he lived to be like 123, so maybe a little nuclear exposure is good for us. I think that's the lesson. Ed Helms, it's so good seeing you in person. This book and podcast, Sneph, who is wonderful. Great to catch up and reminisce and get to know you a little bit better. Thanks for coming on Soul Boom.

Amen, rain. So great to hang out. And one thing we ask every guest on the show is, is their definition of the word soul how would you define it it's a tough one that well there's a there's like two contexts where I think souls are I think of the soul in in two separate contexts one would be sort of one's own sense of self and how kind of the deepest the deepest place in which we understand ourselves. That's like our own sense of a soul.

The other context is, is this, the more kind of eternal view of, of an energy that's present in everyone that may or may not come and go with life. Something like that.

That's pretty good. It's pretty damn good. I got a two and one soul definition. There you go. I love it. Two for one. Thanks, Ed. Amen. The Soul Boom Podcast. Subscribe now on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever else you get your stupid podcasts.