Soul Boom - Existentialism for the Modern Soul w/ Millennial Therapist Sara Kuburic

Episode Date: May 8, 2025

What if you’re not meant to find yourself, but to create yourself? In this Soul Boom episode, existential psychotherapist and bestselling author Sara Kuburic (It’s On Me) joins Rainn Wilson for a deep conversation about identity, self-loss, and the illusion of authenticity in the digital age. After diagnosing what makes The Office's Dwight Schrute so...unique, "The Millennial Therapist" (as she's known online) joins Rainn to explore how modern life disconnects us from our inner truth and how existentialism offers a path back to meaning through responsibility, embodiment, and deliberate choice. This is a soul-searching, perspective-shifting dialogue for anyone who feels overwhelmed, unseen, or stuck in someone else’s version of success. THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS! Take the online quiz and introduce Ollie to your pet 👉 Visit https://www.ollie.com/soulboom today for 60% off your first box of meals! #ToKnowThemIsToLoveThem Stamps.com: Get a 4-week trial, free postage, and a digital scale 👉 https://www.stamps.com/soulboom SOUL BOOM LIVE IN LOS ANGELES 5/27! Tickets 🎟️: ⁠⁠https://soulboom.com/live⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⏯️ SUBSCRIBE!⁠⁠ ⁠⁠👕 MERCH OUT NOW! ⁠⁠ ⁠⁠📩 SUBSTACK!⁠⁠ FOLLOW US! 👉 ⁠⁠Instagram: http://instagram.com/soulboom⁠⁠ 👉 TikTok: ⁠⁠http://tiktok.com/@soulboom⁠⁠ CONTACT US! Sponsor Soul Boom: ⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠ Work with Soul Boom: ⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠ Send Fan Creations, Questions, Comments: [e-mail] Executive Produced by: Kartik Chainani Executive Produced by: Ford Bowers, Samah Tokmachi Companion Arts Production Supervisor: Mike O'Brien Theme Music by: Marcos Moscat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You're listening to SO... What's it like being an internet social media therapist? We have a pandemic of individuals who are seriously suffering from fully not understanding who they are, from being so estranged from themselves, and it's manifesting in every area of their life. And for me, it was just really important to provide basic psychoeducation. I'm rooted in existentialism, like existential philosophy. I focus on themes of responsibility and death and meaning. I don't even like the term find meaning.

Who has created it for you to find it? I really want to get canceled today. But you know what? Hot Takes, make for great podcasting. Hey there, it's me, Rain Wilson, and I want to dig into the human experience. I want to have conversations about a spiritual revolution. Let's get deep with our favorite thinkers, friends, and entertainers

about life, meaning, and meaning. idiocy. Welcome to the Soul Boom podcast. Soul Boom live at Largo, May 27th. I am so excited to announce that we're doing our very first in real life, IRL Soul Boom podcast recording live in Los Angeles, May 27th at the legendary Largo Theater. That's the Largo Theater in L.A. with our very special guest and a dear friend of mine. So get ready for a night of laughter, deep thoughts, spiritual silliness as and I dive into all things. Comedy, consciousness, God, and whatever else flies out of our weird little brains.

That's the Largo Theater at the Coronet, May 27th in Los Angeles. Go to soulboom.com slash live. Tickets are limited. Soulboom.com slash live. Where we get started. Hey, how's it going? Good, thanks. I'm just booking some flights for travel stuff. Yeah.

Well, I'm here live on the air. with Sarah Kuboric. Whoa, wait, what? And the millennial therapist. Oh my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Oh, I'm on the phone with Sarah Kubrick and what's the guy who plays Dwight.

Nick Offerman. Wait, you're in Cleveland? What's up, baby? Hey, how's it going, Mr. Glassman? All right, nice to see you. Nice to see you. How's it, car? carpet business. Pretty good, thanks. I got nine more months until I retire. Oh, wow, good for you.

Hey, does the carpet match the drapes? Oh, hi, Mrs. Glassman. How are you? My parents are here. What are you doing? How are you? I'm here with the millennial therapist. No, what is it? Yeah, millennial therapist. The millennial therapist. I'm not a millennial. I'm Gen X, but Sarah's here. Hi, how are you? So lovely to meet you. I know your son. I said, I know your son. It's lovely to finally meet you. But I was just wondering if you could diagnose what Rick Glassman needs to work on next. Any suggestions?

I would never do that to Rick. I've got a few. Okay. Let me hear it. I feel like Rick needs to find a deeper sense of purpose and meaning in the work that he does, other than just simply, you know, making people laugh and being a goofball. Do you not think that the fact he makes people, laugh is a defense mechanism?

There could be a little of that. You just didn't prepare for this interview, huh, Rain? Nice try, Glassman. If you could have Sarah help you with something in your life, what are you working on right now? Sarah has helped me with everything that I've needed her help with. She has been a sounding board for me. She has been there to talk creative.

She's been there to talk as a person who listens to me, Vent, about personal things where she has tried her, best as a human to not interject in her professional opinions because really it would be a conflict of interest. I don't know what else I would want out of Sarah other than to provide more value to her from the friendship from my end. Sarah, is there anything I could do anything you want to plug? You're so sweet. Rick, your friendship means a lot to me. Wait, we're not here to talk to Sarah. We're here to talk to you. What do you think I should ask Sarah? What do you think would be really revelatory for me on the Soul Boom podcast to talk to Sarah about?

I well as a as a viewer I'd be interested to hear her opinions of the character of Dwight but I don't know if that's something that is too over discussed with you reign but I would love to hear what Sarah thinks of the dynamic and the need of importance for his acceptance from Michael while also deflecting from the potential from a lot of his other workplace relationships similar to how you and Kartik seem to be sometimes Cartick, my producer, yes. Kartik is a little bit of the Dwight Shrewd in this relationship. That would make me Michael Scott. Yeah. He's an Indian Dwight Shrewd. Hey, that's a great question. I'm going to ask her that.

Have you seen the office? Have you seen the TV show the office? Never. I'm just kidding, yes. Okay. She has. I'm going to start with that question. So, Sarah, how would you diagnose Dwight Shrewt?

and the various kind of things that push and pull him to being both a people pleaser and kind of a bully at the same time. Thanks for launching this podcast, Rick. Thank you, Rick. Thanks, Rick. Give my love to your parents. It's on me available everywhere on Amazon

and go to sarahcubrick.m.m. All right, love you guys. Bye. That's not my website. Do you actually want me to answer the question? I think for me to answer that question, I need to ask you one. Okay. Because motivation and intention matters.

Okay. So what do you think motivated him or what the intention was with people pleasing but then also bullying? I think Dwight is all about rules and hierarchies. I think, you know, when you see the Terminator and like the Terminator has options and it's like one, you know, say fuck you motherfucker or say I'll be back or whatever. he has like those options. Like Dwight is eternally seeing a list of options. And for him, a hierarchy, Michael being his boss, bosses are to be lauded, respected, revered, kissed up to.

Kind of similar to our current political situation in the United States right now a little bit. But at the same time, inferior, he holds in disdain. and there are right ways and wrong ways of doing things. And he is there to make money and profit and be the best possible paper salesman and whether he's liked or not liked. And ultimately, he's a shrewd above and beyond. So it's kind of loyalty, not just to his family,

but to the family structures and strictures that kind of motivate him. There is a larger shrewd cause. I love that you said that. You know what he made me think of? He made me think of Jean-Paul Sartre. Okay. And when he talks about our willingness to surrender our freedom for structure. And so many people do that because I think it's actually an easier way to live is to pick a structure, be it religious or political or it really doesn't matter what kind of organization you want to believe in and go.

I'm going to abide by whatever you want me to abide by. I have made one choice and the rest I'm surrendering. Meaning, I don't have to constantly be making these deliberate, authentic, thoughtful choices. I have now, by making this one choice, sort of surrendered to the rest of my freedom, or so we think. And people do that with religion, but people do that with work as well. And so I see Dwight— Can I throw something else? Yes, of course. I think I see a lot of young contemporary people, but I think this has always been the case, doing that with just— The strictures of contemporary society. Absolutely.

I'm going to be materialistic. People on TikTok want me to look great. I'm going to work on looking great. They want to be more popular. So I'm going to use social media to try and be more popular. I'm going to buy things that are easy. I'm going to have superficial conversations. I'm going to just seek kind of a social evolution that is culturally and socially

acceptable. Yeah. They chose a place where they wanted to belong. and then they decided to just do everything they needed to in order to belong. It's really that simple. And I see Dwight exactly the same way. He's like, I want to belong to this amazing paper company.

I am a shrewd, which means that I work hard. There are all these prescribed ways that he needs to live as life to be the shrew. And then that's what he did. Instead of sitting there and being like, do I like paper? Does this resonate with me? what beliefs have led to me treating, you know, a Pam trying to this way. And I think what it does, it alleviates us from thinking, truly. And I think we see that in society all the time where we have chosen a path so that we don't

really have to think very much. And we have other people to tell us exactly what to do and how to think and how to behave and who we should become. I also think, you know, maybe Dwight doesn't fully fall into that category. but I think that's how we alleviate our anxiety of freedom is like choosing one path and going full force. And that's what I see that he did. And a lot of people will do that and then they'll have a nervous breakdown.

Yeah. In their 20s, 30s or 40s, especially like 40s, 50s, that's kind of the traditional time. It's earlier now. I thought it was, I wanted to be the best insurance agent and have a house on this particular cul-de-sac and have 2.4 kids and whatever. And then they, and then everything falls apart.

But you're right. I think even younger now, you see people having kind of like meaning of life breakdowns at 28. I think it's because we're accomplishing things a lot faster. I think it's nice when you have a goal that you're waiting to obtain for a really a long time. Like it's frustrating, but it's comforting because you have this dangling promise that once you accomplish it, you're going to have a life of meaning, a fulfillment. you're going to feel a certain way, you're going to be a different person. And so that drives you. I think what we're seeing is people reach these goals and then they go, shit, this meant nothing. I'm not who I thought I was. It didn't actually change the way that I viewed myself or anyone else.

My relationships didn't get better. I didn't get more self-confidence. And then they realized that it's actually inherently meaningless. And so because people are sort of reaching their goals quicker and getting like, you know, TikTokers who are making millions. I think they're having these crises a lot sooner. Because we always assume something external is going to solve our life problems. You can make millions on TikTok?

Yeah. Wait, what? Where have you been? How do I do it? I mean, I don't know how to do that. I don't even. We can sort of join TikTok if you want. I think I'm on TikTok.

Am I on TikTok? Yeah? Okay, I'm going to join you on TikTok because I don't use it. You don't use it? No. Yeah, I mean, I think there's also a lot more pressure these days. Yeah. So, you know, I talk to a lot of young college kids and the pressure to get into the right law school or grad school and get the right grades and have the right internship over the summer and have the right job upon waiting for them upon graduation is that's always kind of been there, but it's a far cry from where that was in the 90s.

Maybe because there's also less opportunities and less opportunities to make money. It's really competitive, but I think that also speaks to like him and Dwight mistreating people that were beneath him. I think unless people see value in like you're going to progress my career, we have dehumanized one another. The amount of times I've walked into a party and someone doesn't know what I do and there's a celebrity nearby or someone who's more obviously important and there are many people more important than I am. Rick Glassman. Like Rick Glassman. And they will treat me a specific way and it's really demeaning. And then they'll be like, oh, wait, did you do this thing?

Or are you friends with Rick? This has actually happened. When women are like, is he single? Wait, let's be best friends. And then they attribute a value into like, oh, this is what she can give me. So let me treat her like a human now. And I think that that's so disappointing. And we see this over and over again.

And these are the questions. Or I imagine for you, sorry to interrupt. I imagine for you like, oh, you're a therapist. Oh, that's cool. Oh, that's cool therapist. And then like, she's a therapist. She has two million followers. and she's a best-selling book and she travels the world like, oh, like I am.

Yeah, there's a little of that. Yeah, it's like, hey, do you want to promote this thing that I'm doing on your Instagram page? And I think that's disappointing because I think we should see inherent value in who someone is, not what they do. And we've lost that fully. And I think it is because it's so incredibly competitive. And I find that particularly in L.A., we talked before starting to record, like, different cities.

It's like in L.A., really, unless you show someone your value, pretty quickly, they do not treat you the same way. And I find that really fascinating. And it's something that I do not appreciate. Yes, get me out of here. Get me out of L.A. But like L.A., I love you and please invite me back. Exactly. But I think, you know, if the office were a drama, season three, Dwight Shrewt would have a nervous breakdown. Now, he hit some dark spots when Angela broke up with him and stuff like that. But if it was a drama, if there's a drama version of the office. which would be pretty interesting.

You should do this. Yeah. And then, but where somehow or other, he's left out of a shrewd will or something like that, and the rug is pulled out, and everything he thought was important. Yeah. He realized was just a house of cards.

And then you cut to Dwight living in Greenwich Village, smoking a bong, and going to open poetry in my nights, or some way that he is completely, you know, going to a meditation retreat or living on top of a mountain or something like that where we get to see Dwight really reinvestigating who he is beyond being a shrewt, a farmer, and a paper salesman. I think that would be very healthy for him.

I think we would feel bad that he had a breakdown. But I also think that our society has this aversion to suffering or to questioning or to darkness. when I actually think all of these things are incredibly important and helpful. And so it's interesting that in dramas, you're like, oh, no, like, let's get them out of it as quickly as we can. Like we have this culture and this entertainment narrative that's like, no, no, no, no, this can't last too long. When in reality, I think it's the darkness that helps you see the light as corny as it is. And I think that's when transformation occurs. We have so many studies to show, no one wakes up one day and it's like, I want to be a better person.

everything's good but I can do better so few individuals ever think that way it's when they're in a constant state of tension or suffering or pain that they consider how they can pivot and so I would like this for Dwight and I think we would get to see

such a more embodied version of him and potentially a freer version of him which I think would be more interesting Could you imagine that Dwight coming back to Dunder Mifflin and him and Michael would they be like just best friend. Would Michael like him more then? I think Michael's too clueless to even care. He doesn't notice the transition. He wouldn't notice that anything had changed whatsoever. But

a transformed Dwight because of suffering would be really interesting. It would be very interesting. What I'm really curious about, I know I'm not the host here, but how do you think his relationship to Angela would change? Well, I think she operates by another set of very defined rules. I think as a Christian and she has a certain rigidity that they just they match up well. Yeah. You know, um, I don't think their marriage would last. I think there'd be a divorce. I think so too. Yeah. Because he would gain freedom from the structure and she would remain very rigid. And so I, I think that she would probably trigger him in terms of himself pre-evolution or pre-transformation. Mm-hmm. And then she would see him as obviously irrational.

or irrelevant to her life. And so it's interesting to see that if one person involves and the other doesn't, it always leads to a break. Is that true? Yes. However, that break is not always obvious in terms of like they get a divorce. I think there's a lot of dead relationships

without any sort of labels. Where one person has transformed, grown, evolved? Yeah. Oh, do you think that one person can evolve and grow and change? The other one doesn't? and they can still have a very intimate, healthy relationship? No, I hadn't really considered that before,

but no, I don't think that that's true. Yeah. I actually think it's the reason why a lot of relationships and maybe we don't talk about it enough. But I think when one person evolves and really cares and the other is like, well, I entered into this relationship exactly like this, you agreed to accept me exactly like this, and they don't involve,

that usually ends with a split. Because I think the person who's growing, it's not even the fact that their partner is not growing, it's the fact that their partner might not have the growth mindset, which is an even bigger issue. And I also think in relationships, it's tough because you need to grow in the same direction. So I always talk about it.

It's like you need to go in the same direction at the same speed. The probability of that is really slim. And that's why being in a successful relationship is actually quite difficult. You know, M. Scott Peck in Road Less Traveled, which is one of my favorite books, talks about how a marriage is mutual support of each other's spiritual journeys. And that, to me, really resonates because that allows for what you're talking about. Because if you know that you're in the marriage, not to go on a certain track that you've agreed to like you just described. Yeah. But to say, hey, we're.

going on a spiritual journey and we have to support the growth of each other's souls as we go down that journey, someone might have cancer and need a certain kind of support. Someone else might have a nervous breakdown on mental health issue and need a certain kind of support. Someone else might become disenchanted with being a plastic surgeon and want to be a yoga teacher and your income goes down by 90 percent. And that requires a certain kind of support. But if you view the journey as something greater than a material one, or just kind of like the game of life journey of like, you know, get married, get the car, get the house and suburbs and find the right retirement community and then die while on the golf course. You know, the relationship path is something more meaningful and more resonant and allows for suffering and transformation. Yeah, it's also. It's rare. Oh, so rare. Don't you think?

It also allows for compassion. I think a lot of people is something I've been thinking about a lot lately is we used to have religion in the concept of God as something that gives you structure and something that fulfills all your needs. And I think lately we've been placing all of that in romantic relationships where people's partners have become God and not in like a sexy or maybe even if there is a healthy way, but in like a I am putting all my meaning, all my identity,

all my needs onto this one person. And I think that that can get incredibly unhealthy. But what you're talking about is sort of like this compassion of my partner is not perfect. My partner is also evolving. I'm going to make space for them. I'm going to witness their evolution, their journey, and they're going to witness mine. And we're going to just try to help each other reach whatever destination each person is trying to reach. I think there's something beautiful about being in a relationship where you can go, we're going to support each other.

And if that leads to the same destination, that's really beautiful. and if it doesn't, that's also okay. Because I think sometimes by couples just trying so hard to stay together, they really hinder each other from growing fully because it is scary to watch your partner evolve in a way that is no longer compatible with you. And that does happen. And so just having that, you know, that grace, that compassion and that curiosity

and that kind of giving spirit to be like, I am part of your journey, but I don't possess you. And it's okay if at the end of the day you are, you know, who you want to become. come and that person no longer wants to be with me or doesn't fit with me. Now, I've seen a lot of people come from fractured homes or difficult traumatic childhoods, and then they have some kids, and their kids become the higher power. And like, you don't see them anymore, and they're just all about kids.

And I feel bad even saying this because I grew up in the 70s and 80s and no one give a fuck about their kids. I mean, it just was like, kids kind of raise themselves, like, go out, we'll see you. The weekend, it's Friday night, we'll see a Sunday night to do your homework and just make sure you get breakfast on Monday and go to school on time. And that was kind of how you raised kids. It was like free-range kids. We just ran, you know.

But now with helicopter parenting, have you noticed that at all? Or is this just my little weird subsection of friends? No, I do think that parents are putting way too much pressure on their children. and in terms of like micromanaging. And also revolve, making their lives revolve around kind of their kids' needs. Yeah. The kids want to see the parents living a rich, full, meaningful, productive life. And they're a right-sized component of that life.

Yes. I think it's such a shame because exactly what you just said, their parents are not modeling authenticity or meaning or autonomy. me. And a lot of parents, I don't know, maybe I'll get canceled for this, a lot of people have kids because they want meaning. So it's not shocking that their entire world revolves around the children. It's a lot of the time I'll hear people go, you know, I did okay on my job, I did whatever, but I just felt like I was a bit empty. And so I decided to have a child. And so now. So they want the kids to fill the God-shaped whole. Exactly. And so of course

then that they would be obsessive and, inappropriately, maybe even attached to their children. And so this to me is a warning to future parents of like, make sure you feel pretty complete. You know how in like romantic comedies it's like, you complete me and we say that to a partner. You also shouldn't be saying that to your child. That is so much pressure for your child, by the way. And I also think a lot of parents are trying to relive their youth or relive their childhood through their kids.

So if they had a really traumatic childhood, they'd be like, well, I want to make sure my kid doesn't. And I want to watch them enjoy all the things I couldn't enjoy, which is beautiful, but also the motivation and the intention adds to this intensity of, like, them getting to experience their own childhood through their child's eyes. I had a friend who were couples, and they had two kids. The boy was kind of the model boy, son, and the daughter. son and the daughter had a real lot of the younger daughter had a lot of behavioral problems and

tantrums and meltdowns and and tears at the slightest provocation and rages and they went into family therapy and the therapist at one point had the daughter draw the family and you know it's a very common therapeutic practice right so you can do it now if you want i'd love yeah that would be um the and she drew the family and she drew herself in the center of it, huge. And the therapist was like, what looks off about this? And like, well, she's taking up all the space. The parents said, well, she's taking up all the space in the picture.

And like, that's exactly right. She doesn't want to be taking up all the space. She wants to be right size. She wants the adults. Normally healthy kids, when they draw, they draw the right sizes. Yeah. Right? So the proportional.

The tall dad, the tall mom, the shorter that, blah, blah, blah. But she was like this giant in the family taking up all the oxygen. Like she wants to be like, I hate to say this, but like, limit, it's not the right word. Condensed. Yeah, I see what you mean. Yeah. Compressed in a way to be right size. Like, how are you with setting boundaries with her and limits and, you know, and a certain measure of discipline?

And when they started working on that, it really was pretty miraculous. and the daughter has turned around. That's wonderful. Yeah, it has a great happy ending to it all. And I wonder as adults, even if you were to draw out your group friends or the people most relevant in your life, what size you'd be compared to other people. Of course, like, as an adult, you'd be like proportion matters.

But if you were to draw it in terms of, like, who's taking up the most space emotionally or mentally or spiritually, it would be an interesting exercise even for adults. Yeah. Yeah. Now, what is an existential psychotherapist as opposed to a marriage and family counseling psychotherapist? Yeah, mine's made up. No. So each therapist has a theory or like a modality from which they practice. So it's how they understand the problem and the theory of change and what tools they're going to use. So usually those three things.

Yeah. And I'm rooted in existentialism, like existential philosophy, Kikiggaard, Heidegger. or Sartra, whoever else I'm missing, because my mind. And I focus on themes of responsibility and death and meaning and isolation. So when I'm looking at a problem. That you find in yourself and for yourself. Because existentialism pretty groundbreaking to be saying in the, especially in the 40s and 50s, but 20s and 30s as well, like to say,

hey, you find your own meaning. You make your own meeting. you make your own path because up until then, church and state and family and culture determined how you thought and felt about pretty much everything.

And as those were falling apart in the two great wars, literally out of the ashes of that. It was radical, but I think it was also having to see the worst of humanity to be like, oh, inherently there isn't anything there. And yet you can create something.

I actually think it's one of the most empowering theories. I don't even like the term find meaning because what are you finding? Who has created it for you to find it? I'm very deliberate about saying you create meaning rather than find meaning. And so this is the type of thing that when I'm talking. That's a really important differentiation. Talk more about that. We're not you're not about finding yourself. You're about creating yourself. or finding the self that has been stripped away from you? Explain it, no, is that not right? Because you talk a lot about self-abandonment and self-loss through your book,

which is giving over the reins of your truth, of your authentic voice, of your authentic self, to others, family, culture, church, or just codependence, people pleasing, wanting to be liked. Of course. Not being able to set boundaries, certain cultural dictates. Yeah. But you have to create your own meaning.

And like you said earlier, oftentimes that comes through suffering. The existential movement came out of great suffering. The greatest suffering humanity had and has ever known. Yeah. And that also can lead to a personal transformation. Absolutely. And I think what I don't like about the finding is it's passive. And I think nothing about life is actually passive.

Because no choice is a choice. And so I think we have this culture where it's like, well, I'll find it. It's almost like I'll stumble upon it. There'll be this beautiful recognition of it and then I'll embrace it. And I think that we like sauntering down a path. Yeah. Maybe I'll stumble. And then you're like, wow.

And then there's going to be this. It's supposed to building meaning and actively pursuing meaning, purpose, self-identity. and taking responsibility for all the choices that you're making. I think it's our society is really not hot on responsibility, especially personal responsibility. And so when I think about creating building, it's very active, it's very intentional,

it's very hard, and it's taking responsibility for every single thing that you do because you're aware that your sense of self is constantly evolving with every decision, every conversation. If you look at Heidegger, there's almost nothing you can, can do even this conversation we're having right now is altering the totality of who I am.

And that, when you start to understand life that way, you become so deliberate about every single thing you do. And that is absolutely exhausting. And so I think it's a very unpopular way to... But exhausting or bad exhausting? Both. I don't think existentialism is about like, oh, this is going to be really easy for you. But it is, it's a lot of hard work. Is there joy at the end of it? Absolutely. I think there's liberation, there is meaning, there is authenticity. I think some of the greatest things are the outcome of it. I just don't think the path to it is pleasant. I think we talk about authenticity nowadays almost as like a hall pass. Like that feels so good, so it must be authentic. That's not what authenticity means. I talked about authenticity actually comes from Heidegger.

He coined the term in German, which I'm not going to try to pronounce. And it means to own ownness to own oneself. And so authenticity actually means accountability. That is where that word stems from. That is where that word comes. Like that is what it means. And now to be like, well, that felt authentic for most people means that felt good. But there's no accountability. And so I think we need to be really, really careful how we use this vocabulary. And also at the end of this exhausting, let's say life, some of the most beautiful things come out of it. And I think we all want authenticity and meaning and freedom. And I think this is one way to get it. Yeah, authenticity is a tricky word because I worked in the digital media space for a long

time with this company's Soul Pancake and we did a lot of like branded deals and companies would say we want to find our authenticity or they would get pitched on doing commercials on like authenticity. And then you get commercials like there's this one that was out for a while, like the Subaru ad. And it was like, love, it's what makes a Subaru a Subaru. It's like, no. No.

Excellent. No. It's automotive engineers make Subaru's and money keeps the lights on for Subaru and its employees. Now, Subaru may have a certain measure of pride. in the cars that they make, and maybe more than some other car brand, you know, none springs to mind right now, Renault. Maybe the Subaru builders have more pride than the Renault builders.

I don't know. I wouldn't know. But that's not authenticity. That's kind of a sales manipulation. But people respond to authenticity. They're like, oh, it feels authentic. Like the music is being played on a ukulele. This must be an authentic.

Yeah. But if you think about authentic, it's like it is what it claims to be, right? The most basic definition of that is, and if you think about individuals who promote authenticity, it's almost comical that our culture does this because it's like you have the lights, you have the filters, you have the scripts, you have the, and in what part of that do you remain, maintain your integrity? That's, I guess, my question. think what we don't understand is the high cost of not maintaining your integrity, of not being

proactive. I think a lot of people almost see it as acting, not like professional acting, but they're like, okay, so like I'll be whatever I need to be for my audience, or I'll be whatever I need to be for my partner or my friend or that business meeting. Like, it doesn't really matter if it's not truly me. And I think why I wrote the book on self-loss is because we have a pandemic of individuals who are seriously suffering from fully not understanding who they are, from being so estranged from themselves, and it's manifesting in every area of their life, and they don't even know how they got there.

And how they got there was by making these tiny little compromises of like, well, you know, I think rain would like this, so I'm going to present that way. And that's all it takes sometimes. It's just do that 10,000 times, and you're going to be completely estranged from the concept of self. So I've asked this question of a number of different people on this podcast. So one of the things we deal with a lot on this show is a mental health epidemic, which is ravaging the United States, maybe less or so Canada.

I don't know about Australia and other countries in Europe. But I'm 23 years old. I live in Omaha, Nebraska. You know, I've got a college degree. I'm working at a Starbucks. And I am struggling with mental health. I have panic attacks. I have anxiety.

I'm on Prozac for depression. I'm feeling a sense of listlessness and meaninglessness in my life. I don't know what I want to do next. I used to have some good friends in junior high and high school, but now I spend most of my time on my phone scrolling through. And I look at my screen time and I'm spending eight hours a day on my phone. And so I feel loneliness and disqualiness. and a disconnection.

Someone like that comes into your office. How do you take this kind of like average young American who's really wondering what the hell at all means and help them to create a life, to create meaning? Yeah. And to counter self-loss. Yeah. So I think first I want to make this very clear

that not every therapeutic modality will work for everyone. That's just impossible. So make sure that when you're seeing a therapist, you're shopping around. And this modality works for people that like, maybe tough love or maybe thrive into intellectual and the somatic.

Like there's things that why you would really like in. There's reasons why you wouldn't. But I think, so that's just my little disclaimer. But I think for me, if I had a client like that come in, the first thing I'd want to do is just normalize the experience. Because that's just also being 20. And that's also just being 20 in today's society, which is horrifying. So their response, even if we're deeming it as unhealthy or as a struggle, is actually quite

appropriate to what's happening in the world. I don't think we should pathologize that. I think we need to be really, really careful of like, does the response match to stimuli? And if it does, then to me it's like, okay, this makes sense. and what do we do to help you endure this? What do we do to help you gain some sense of autonomy within the chaos? Rather than being like the chaos actually doesn't exist, it's all fully internal. This is a disproportionate response.

Let's work on that. So in this scenario, it really depends, you know, does he have a medical diagnosis and how long has he been feeling this way and so on and so forth? But to me, I would start with normalizing it. And then I would say, you know what? life is chaos. And let's just assume it's absurd. Maybe you don't believe that. Maybe you do believe that. But let's do some thought experiments. Let's say that life was truly absurd. What can you find meaning? Where can you find this meaning? And we can talk about like how he spends his time.

So a lot of people like, Sarah, I don't know what I value and what I care about. And actually, if you paid attention, your calendar can tell you that quite easily. Now you might not be able to detect that. You'd be like, well, I'm playing video games or I'm smoking, or I'm doing all these things as a society deems completely irrelevant and a waste of my time. But I will go through every single item. You have listed on your calendar for a week and I'll talk about like, what does it give you? What emotion do you feel when you're engaging with it? What do you feel like life is asking of you when you're doing that?

And so we'll get really existential about the fact that you spend 75 minutes on your phone scrolling. Because I want to know what the value is. And once we figure out what you actually value in life, it's so much easier to then repackage that in a potentially more proactive. So they say, okay, I spend nine hours a day on my screen time on my phone. A lot of times it's swiping through TikTok and Instagram. I play video games for two and a half hours a day. I smoke weed X amount of hours. I look at porn X amount of hours.

Here's my work schedule. Yeah. And then occasionally I play, you know, basketball in the park or I visit my family or something like that. But you're saying in a way like you are what you do. You are what you choose to do. You're not a victim to living this way. But you have made the choice to spend that many hours on your phone.

Yes. That many hours kind of numbing yourself, distracting yourself from what? From the discomfort of being alive, of being a human? from not knowing what to do next, from the unknown, right? It can just be as simple as like, we get anxious when we don't know what to do next. Like, that can be it. Or a lot of people do this as a bid for connection. A lot of people play video games and get really connected to mates that they're playing, you know, the games with.

Or they're scrolling and they're, you know, leaving comments in the chat. And so I would be really curious of like, is it pure escapism? Because if it is, let's see what you're trying to escape. Or is it your attempt to connect? or express or whatever. I had a client once who, he came to me because he thought he masturbated too much. And he's like, Sarah,

I'm masturbating seven to nine times a day. And I was like, okay. He's masturbating too much, Sarah. If you're a decent therapist, you'd have been like, yeah, that's too much. Okay, who's next? This was when I was, I was an intern. It was one of my first male clients.

And I just remember being like, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. And it was fascinating because we were talking about like, what do you gain from that? And he's like, I hate it. I'm objectifying women. That doesn't really feel like me. It's not because of that. And we did this whole, you know, 10, it was a 10 session, I think, sort of programmed together. It was fascinating because at the end of it, I realized that he has experienced something

really traumatic. And when he masturbates, more specifically when he comes, when he orgasms, it's the only time he feels embodied. He had nothing to do with sex. They had nothing to do with the women. What he had to do is like him feeling fully present in his body for a couple seconds. And that was really beautiful. And so it's figuring out like what is it that you value.

And for him, embodiment is what he valued. And that's beautiful. And so when you rephrase it like that to a client and you go, you know what you actually really value is embodiment, that's a completely different conversation. Now, I just want to make one thing clear is I do believe we get thrown. into life. You were like, you're not masturbating enough. Yeah, I'm like, you should be masturbating 20 times a day.

Yeah, exactly. Full embodiment. Exactly. This is the advice. Let's get those numbers up, people. Oh, my God, imagine. But I do want to make one thing clear. Although existentialism is very much like what can you change and you have autonomy,

we also believe that you have givens, you have limitations. Right. Each human is born with limitations. Like, you can't be taller than you are. You're going to die. You were born to a certain family. Well, and let me jump in there. because I know a lot of friends that are folks of color who feel like, and they're right,

that they have, the deck is stacked against them in a lot of ways. And it is in a lot of ways. Yeah. And if, you know, if their parents were redlined and were not allowed to save any money because they weren't allowed to buy property, that accrued. that accrued any interest. And so they're poor as hell and they have a fractured family

and they're experiencing racism. Like, societally, there's a lot of, you know, truth to that. Like, they are being, quote, unquote, victimized by privilege and by folks who have a lot and folks who really have zero compassion for what their life story and their parents and their grandparents' story might be. Yeah.

So that's very, very real. Very real. And so that's why I wanted to bring this up and thank you for giving such a tangible example. It's like there are givens. And existentialism, and not that I'm talking for all existentialists around the world, but we're not claiming you can change everything and you're never a victim to anything. It's saying, no, you have real limitations and real givens, necessities, things you cannot change. And yet within it find your choice.

Find your freedom. Find your why. It's like Victor Frankl lived through the Holocaust, came out, wrote a book on meaning. Do you know what? And he said the last of human freedoms was my attitude. He claims you can never lose all freedom. That's someone who just lived through a Holocaust. That's wild. And in my book, I say, well, if he feels that way, like, what do we have to say for ourselves? Because a lot of people are like, well, I can't do it. It's like, okay, maybe you can't do that one thing, but within your limitations, where is your freedom? And sometimes that's a small as just attitude. But I think he's arguing that we always have some form of it. And that's really empowering, I think. And I think that's something I try to get my clients to really tap into.

Yeah, that's really great. I've noticed that in the younger generation and a series of choices throughout the day. Like, I'm going to do X, Y, and Z because my parents want me to do X, Y, and Z. I'm going to post on social media in a certain way because that's what my friends expect. I'm going to act a certain way at school. I'm, I'm this goofball, but I'm not going to act like a goofball at school because I'm afraid I'll get judged for acting like a gulf or bullied or, yeah. Or bullied. So I'm going to shut that down and then behave a certain way for teachers and then the pressures of like college and career. I'm going to do X, Y, and Z. And then you come home exhausted at the end of the day, you're ready to fall asleep at 10 at night, and you've made 27 decisions throughout the day that don't nourish your

soul. Yeah, and I always say like people think it's the big life decisions that really shape who they become. I often think it's actually the thousands and millions of tiny decisions you made that have a much greater impact than the four really important decisions that you actually thought about. You know, and we think about those really big decisions and then go on autopilot for the rest. And I think that's where the miscalculation is occurring. And it's why we're waking up going, How is this my life? I don't even recognize myself. And if I do, I don't like the person I'm seeing.

I don't know why I'm alive. I'm not really enjoying any aspect of it either. Like I'm going to the dinner parties or I'm, you know, I've climbed the ladder. And it's just this really intense sense of nothingness and emptiness that I think a lot of people are experiencing. And it's due to just not understanding that the small decisions are just. as important as the four that you really thought about. When you're working with clients and you're working on this idea of self-loss, of true authenticity, of creating meaning, and embracing suffering as a vital, important,

and, you know, real part of the human experience, like, what do you work on with folks? I mean, it's obviously you've got a hundred different clients. You're going to work in a hundred different ways depending on their needs. But how does that process work? You talked about modalities of therapy. This is a modality that is looking for finding your real self and creating your own meaning, one baby step at a time. So there's so much. I think the number one thing that I do is I'll say,

find your 5% this is my favorite tool when someone is giving me a story about their life or their interaction or their sense of unhappiness I'll ask them to put a percentage on how much they have contributed to this outcome

and this is a really savage thing to do so what does that mean and not completely following? Yeah so they'll be like Sarah I had an argument or Sarah I got fired or Sarah I don't like my job and I'll be like, if you had to take responsibility, how much responsibility do you think, in all honesty, is yours? Give me a percentage. And by the way, I'll do this in like very tough

situations. This is not just like, I had an argument with my wife. And I'd be like, okay, let's put a percentage on it. It'll be some really intense context. My wife left me. My life, well, left me or my family isn't talking to me now or. Or, yeah, whatever it is. Like, It can be a really hard context. And the reason why we introduce this very kindly, very gently, is to realize that you have some responsibility in most things that happen, not always. But that also means you have agency in those things. And so I will often work with my clients of them realizing just how much responsibility they have.

And that then allows them to realize, okay, well, if my decisions led to that, if I change my decisions, they can lead to something else. So responsibility is one thing that we introduced really quickly on. The other thing that I do is just observation. I think a lot of us would learn everything we needed to know about who we are in this moment if we just paid attention. I think we're always like, well, my higher self is somewhere out there. To me, there is no other sense of self than who you are right now sitting in that chair. And there is people are like, well, you know, the way I think about myself, and I'll often be like the way you think, about yourself is a little irrelevant unless that's who you embody. Because then it just,

it remains a thought. It doesn't actually define who you are until your actions show me who you are. So what I work on with my clients is really for them to tune in, become a bit more self-aware, and pay attention to what their actions, tell them about the person they have become. This is really hard because we all have aspects of ourselves that we really love and then we'll all see things that we don't want to see. And we'll be really disappointed and really hurt. And there'll be a lot of resistance and a lot of hesitation. And so it's just holding that space and a lot of suffering that comes out of that. Holding that space of like, what are you truly seeing about yourself? How much responsibility do you want to take for it? And there's this huge

movement. I really want to get canceled today. There's a huge movement about the inner child. and I think it has its place, but I think what's happening... My son, who's 20, calls them Hot Takes. Okay, Hot Takes. So... Okay, your son is cooler and younger, so I don't know. And Hot Takes basically means, like, a possibly unpopular opinion that I'm going to spin out there,

but it can be kind of like, here's my hot take. John Bonham is actually not a great drummer. And like, whoa! That's what you're offering is a series of Hot Takes. I'm offering a Hot Takes. But you know what? Hot takes make for great podcasting. For you. Yeah, that's great. I'm supporting your career. This is my last appearance. No, but I think there's this movement of like the inner child.

And I think it's really wonderful that we're talking about it and that people can sort of personify their traumas or their wounds. Go back and dissect what has happened. But what I see is grown-ass adults still blame their inner child for the way that they're behaving. And I think this is where the responsibility piece comes in, where I'm like, yes, let's... Like if you always lose your temper when someone puts any pressure on you, and it's like, well, when I was a kid, my dad used to beat me and my mom would yell and rage at me. And so anytime I get this pressure coming from me from somewhere, then I'm justified in lashing out because I have a traumatized inner child. And that's just how I'm wired. Exactly. And this is what I fundamentally resist.

It is an explanation, 100%. It is something you also need to be compassionate about. It's something you can have empathy for. It's something that you can work on. It is not a justification. And I do think that individuals need to understand, like, you are an adult now and you have, I believe, free will. And you can make decisions that maybe your inner child couldn't.

And you do not have to be your parent if you don't want to be. Now, that's much harder. That's easier said than done. But I think part of my work is understanding that, like, your trauma informs you, but it does not have to define you unless you let it define you. And I think in this passivity, people surrender to their past. And I get it. They become a victim to their past and I get it. But the reason why I try to sort of shift them out of that mindset is not because I don't believe they're a victim, but because I believe they deserve.

deserve so much more. And you don't have to just be a victim. And so some of my work is also shifting that perspective, taking ownership, being a lot more aware of what actually is right now instead of focusing on just what it was. And then being a lot more intentional about decisions. So I'll have a lot of clients that be like, you know, I got this terrible email or I'm having this conversation. And they're like masterminding the response. They're like, what should I do? Do you think that if I CC management or like, you know, because they want to like throw a punch. Like that's what they want to do. They want to make sure they end up on top. And my, my answer is almost always the same where I go, respond in a way that represents who you are. And I leave them

with that. I really give a shit if you CC someone or if you want to call them out or if you don't. But let it represent you. I want you to be proud of this decision. I want this to be an aligned decision. with your values, with your morals, with your spiritual self. What that looks like is not for me to decide. But you need to know that whatever decision you're making, you need to evaluate it and be like, is this me? And if you go, yes, it's me. And it's something that's real petty. I'm going to call you out on it and be like, is this the version of self we're working with right now?

And if it is okay, but let us like call it. Let's call it. Because some people have a big work kerfuffle. Yeah. And they'll fold like a cheap suit. You're like, oh, sorry. And that's not their authentic self. No, it's not.

And then other people will try and mastermind the best way where they can kind of get a one-upsman and make the other person look bad and there's a manipulation. And maybe it even works out, but that's not representing their vital self. Exactly. Their values. And what for is my question? If you can't fucking be yourself, what for? Like, I know so many people, they're incredibly,

successful, they hate themselves. And I'm like, what do you think? Guilty. I'm so sorry. I'm kidding. I don't hate myself. I used to hate myself. Tell me more. I talked a lot. I'm coughing. I think it's the least you can do. Drink some green tea. Keep this podcast interesting. I've talked a lot about on the show and another podcast about my mental health journey. And, you know, I had a lot of childhood trauma bullshit. We all do. But there was a lot of stuff to unpack. There was a lot of addiction issues, which I want to get into how addiction fits into all of this.

It was a long, interesting journey to self-love and acceptance. And finding my authentic self along the way. That's beautiful. But I'm grateful for it. I'm grateful for a lot of tools that I turn to, therapy. I've been in for 20 years, which I view as just a valuable tool for living my life. Why would I not spend 51 minutes out of my week to examine myself, talk about my fears, and analyze my behavioral patterns, you know, try and dig deeper into kind of what makes me tick and what I'm up against? and get some support and advocacy around that stuff.

It's such a small amount of time when you're looking at the number of hours in a week. Why would I not do that? I can afford to as well. Hello. So that's helpful. That office money. Therapy.

So much of my office money, I've just funneled over to therapy. But there's other tools. You know, the 12 steps of recovery, I've found to be very helpful. Amazing. And invaluable. gotten a lot of connection, living my life in consultation.

It helped me reimagine and reintegrate my belief in a higher power, which has been very strong for me and then helped me on my spiritual path as well. So all of those things, you know, have co-existed and helped me in this journey. It's not over. And, you know, we just, we go one day at a time. and, uh, yeah, but I think I'm making a lot better choices now than I was making five or 10 years ago and I'm making, I was making better choices five or 10 years ago than I was making 20, 30 years ago. So onwards and upwards. But that's the point. I think when someone comes to me and go, I want to be healed. I, I always like to ask like what that means or like they, they want,

I know, like in therapy, their goal is to just, you just, for a lot of people it's to feel nothing. They're like, I want to reach this point where I don't feel any pain, I don't feel any suffering, I'm making all the right decisions, all the time, and I'm always like, I am not a good enough therapist

to help you achieve that because I don't think that's humanly possible. I also don't think that's the point. So what you're describing to me is healing. And it's this beautiful journey of evolution that is going to keep going until you die. And that's it. To me, that's absolutely beautiful.

And I think you're a beautiful role model for even sharing that. No, but like you took what? How many years to figure your shit out? That's great. That's what we all need to constantly be doing. I think people think like, I'll figure it out and then I'm good.

And I just don't think life works that way. Sure. And I also don't think that we reach a point where we're like, and now I'm good. Like now I won't feel these things. I'll always respond the way I want to respond. I'll always make the right decisions. And I think we need to set things straight because mental health has become a huge industry. Wellness has become a huge industry. And people spend a lot of money being promised a lot of things that just they will never get. It's like five steps to become your best self. And I'm like, my God, please tell me so I can like rip up my certificates. And like my PhD. My PhD and start selling this because it's like, I fucked up. I don't know how to do that in five steps, you know? And so I just think we're promising people things that we can't deliver.

And I also think that we're missing the point of life by doing that. It's like that is the interesting piece. We're trying to miss it. It's like rewining the movie and going to the end. It's like, okay, was that satisfying? To me, the grade, the messy, that is the entire part. It's like feel it, touch it, use it, enjoy it. hate it, love it, I don't care, but have a relationship with your life. And I want my life at the end of the

day, I always say this, to feel like a worn in pair of leather shoes. I want it to be like the souls are coming undone, like the, I've lost the laces at some point. It is just like they're falling apart because I've used out my life instead of being like, I got this nice pair of shoes that I put in a box, put in the back of my closet, and it's there and then I can wear on my funeral day. And I think that's what people are trying to do is like preserve their life somehow. And I'm like, why don't we just like make life worth living instead? Why don't we just engage it and have this like really intense relationship with it, the good and the bad and everything in between?

So I asked my therapist, Bruce, what I should ask you. Okay. And do you want to hear what he had to say? Yeah, of course. So he is more, he's on the Jungian, Gestalt. side of things. Ooh, Gestalt. Love Gistalt.

I use some techniques from Gishtel. Yeah, yeah. It's fascinating. I used that for years. He also does hypnotherapy. Amazing. He said, I don't know why he said this, but I'm going to throw it out there. Ask her about the main areas people resist taking responsibility for.

What she thinks is the composition of the resistance, her strategies for dealing with resistance, her appreciation of the roles of denial, worthiness and support in the process. I think one of the things that Bruce takes on a lot is like, well, I'm spending all day on my phone, but what I really want to be doing is beekeeping. And it's like, well, what's getting in your way of beekeeping? Well, I just, and that's the resistance.

Whatever it is, like, and how do you tackle that resistance? Or not tackle, it's not the right word. How do you excavate that resistance? Is it low self-esteem? You know, ultimately, I just don't feel like I would make a good beekeeper. They don't like me. The bees don't like me. Is it, I feel too lazy or I feel undisciplined or I'm too, I'm engaging in behaviors that are distracting me so much that I'm not able to focus.

Like, how do you find that resistance and then how do you begin to? Yeah. Disciped it. Yeah. Any thoughts there? Bruce has great questions. I like Bruce already. All right.

So something we didn't talk about is like self-deceit. And I think a lot of resistance come from just not wanting to see the truth. I think that's when he says the roles of denial. Yeah. So I think the role, like it truly is whenever a client, and I see clients resist responsibility all the time. And sometimes it's about the dumbest little things. It's like, no, I will not apologize to my sister.

And then sometimes it's like a really serious thing. And it's really self-deceit in terms of how they showed up. And I think what we need to understand how they showed up in that context is that people's sense of self is very fragile. And we lie to ourselves. I thought always a good podcast would be lies they tell myself. And then having people come on, don't steal this. I don't know. But having people come on.

We'll produce it. We'll produce it. It happened. That would be amazing. It's like the only podcast I ever thought would be super interesting is like you have people come in all walks of life and just tell you how they've lied to themselves. And this is such a human experience where people go on lying all the time. And I think it's because the truth is often threatening to our fragile sense of self or to the reality that we have created. And we don't know how to operate outside of this reality.

So we keep lying. And so when I think about responsibility, yes, people are resisted because if they take. a finger they get given a hand meaning that if I say, hey, I'm so sorry, I need to take accountability for the fact that I was late, your partner can go well, actually it's your fault also that we didn't pay the bills and this and they pile on.

People are not good about sharing responsibility so when someone owns a bit of it, they end up taking all of it. And so then I've taught my clients to go to whoever and say, I'm taking responsibility for X, Y, and Z and then be like, but that's all I'm taking. That's it as a way to like, stand their grounds and kind of set boundaries around what they're accountable for and what they're

not. So I think that's another reason why people don't, you know, take responsibility, but really it's the self-reseat that I think is the biggest issue here. And it's because we're so threatened. We don't understand the self is fluid. It's not static. And that you getting a bit more light, even if it's uncomfortable, would lead to a next version of you. It doesn't end this version of you. So just changing some of those sort of the vocabulary around it can be really helpful. How do you help people unpack that in a therapy session if you see these different ways they're in denial? So it depends on the client. Sometimes I'll call them out. And my favorite thing to do in therapy, every therapist would like, what the fuck, I'd be like, wow, thank you so much

for sharing that. What do you think I'm going to say next? That I'm full of shit. Yeah. And so many of them will be like, well, you'll say that. And sometimes it's so much more brilliant than what I would ever say. And I'm like, yeah, because now I've allowed you to personify to, what's the word, shit, I can't think of it. Excavate, exs. No, externalize. To externalize this piece of you that's very, that's been very hushed and silenced. And you're like, well, I'm not saying it. She's saying it. So there's so many ways to get the client to like open up. And one of my favorite is to go, what would I say in the situation? They know I'm so blunt, I'm so honest, and I love them a lot, and they know that too. And so a lot of the time, that's when the truth

comes out. And so I'll use little techniques like that to give them the freedom to say this thing, and then he seems less threatening than if they said it to themselves. There's a gestalt exercise in some ways is similar that they just sparked my memory, which is. So in gestalt, from what I understand of it. There's essentially a committee inside of you. There's all of these different forces at work. So rain has the abandoned child. Rain has the rebellious teenager. Rain has, you know, the fearful, the adult who's fearful of not being liked or loved has, you know, the harsh, the perfectionist, you know, father voice inside. And there's this chorus of voices, but you can actually unpack them, put them in like an empty chair. There's lots of ways to do it,

but you do like an empty chair exercise. You use that. And you have a conversation with that part of yourself, have a conversation where you're the perfectionistic father you put in the chair and you say, why are you such a dick to me, perfectionistic father? And I'm just trying to do X, Y, Z. And then you go and sit in the chair

and you play the role of the perfectionist father. And you're like, you're full of shit. You could have done better and you know it. And you're a failure and no one likes you. And then you go and be yourself. And then you learn to kind of stand up for yourself. Like, hey, that's not fair. Don't say that.

That's not true. You're lying to me. I'm actually a really good person and I do X, Y, and Z, and then you experience some growth. But I try to do such a nutshell version of it. No, I love it. That's great. There's another one that I've done, I don't think it was with Bruce, but where you also put your wisest self in a chair. So you have a conversation with the wisest part of yourself.

So you're struggling, your life is falling apart, your marriage is falling apart. you don't know what to do next, whatever. And then you are sharing it, and then you go sit in the chair as the wisest version of yourself. And the wisest version of yourself speaks to the empty chair, which is you at that point. And you can really learn a lot of like, oh,

there is actually part of me that has resilience in wisdom and a deep compassion and a greater perspective. And that is, that wisest part of myself is something that I can call upon whenever I want. It's kind of like a superpower. I love that. I've never done it.

You can steal that? I'm going to, oh yeah, for sure. And I'd be like, rain. That's like 10%. Yeah, yeah. Perfect. So there are some ways in which I wonder about the work that you're doing.

And I have some questions about it. This doesn't sound positive. Okay. It's not positive. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's okay. We can, you're, see, you're doing very well at dealing with the discomfort of this. No. I'm not even comfortable. In certain Darmic spiritual traditions, the self is an illusion. And the line between self and ego from, and I'm using the popular terminology, not the Freudian necessarily, you know, of a self with, uh, kind of unquenchable wants and needs and a want for, uh, to be, you know, to be thought of highly and to get what it wants, when it wants and to, uh, assert itself that when I think about ego that way,

like common terminology. Okay. Is that closer to id or no? That's closer to it. Okay. Um, there's a quote from the faith tradition that I follow the Baha'i faith tradition, which is very interesting, which is, it says the more we search for ourselves, the less likely we are to find ourselves. The more we search for God and to serve our fellow men, the more profoundly will we become acquainted with ourselves and more inwardly assured.

This is one of the great spiritual laws of life. So are any of these ideas contrary to your philosophy that self is an illusion and that in so many of the Buddhist traditions, it's release from self where you find bliss. Yeah. And because the self is so entangled with id and ego, with desire, and it's like gollum in the ring.

You know, it's an unquenchable kind of hunger for assertion and control. Yeah. And this idea that searching for ourselves doesn't mean we're going to find ourselves. the more we search for God, and you can insert whatever you want for God, meaning universe, purpose,

and to serve our fellow men, then we become acquainted with ourselves and more inwardly assured. So it's kind of a reverse, it's a reverse technology, reverse engineering that I'm going to actually find myself by serving others. Also, and let me add to this,

other thing that kind of makes me get a little, bit prickly is like in L.A. everything is like, I could find myself. It's fine. I had to take some time for me and I'm just like. Do you charge crystals? I charge me and my prana and I just, I need to just develop my own thing. At yoga, the teacher was like, and I just felt, oh, this release. Like there's this whole L.A. solipsistic navel gazing kind of like. This is not your audience, I'm assuming. I don't know. It probably is. I'm probably pissing some of them off. But that's okay, it's my hot take. It's your hot take. Okay. So my hot take is against this whole idea of self. So loss of self, what are we really talking about? Okay. So lots of things to unpack here.

First, I love the service piece of what you just read, the quote of like serving one another. When people ask me the question, where do people often find meaning without fail? My answer is in service of others. And I also think we become more human through humanity. And I think when we violate humanity, we actually harm our own humanity. And so this interconnection I think is really beautiful and something we didn't get to talk about in terms of my research. But I honestly believe like, and within existentialism is like you cannot exist in isolation. There is, someone needs to witness you, reflect you back to yourself. Otherwise, you, you will. You won't really understand who you are. So I really love that and that deeply resonates. Now,

the searching for yourself and I think the obsession of like figuring yourself out, I do think that that can get absurd. And that's why I don't like when people are going on a journey to find themselves because I think you can just pay attention to yourself for one day and be like, she's right here. Do I like it? Do I not like it? Let's keep going. And how do I tweak that? It's very practical. It's very not sexy. So I don't think that it necessarily contradicts. I do believe there's a self, but I think it's very almost elusive. I think it's constantly, it's like you will never fully become. You're always in the process of becoming. And the day that you die, I guess that was the final destination. I don't necessarily like the concept of, not that anyone gives a shit,

that like you need to transcend yourself that like the self has the ego and the it and that's why like it's something that we should like overcome because to me they're not necessarily inherently bad things and I also don't know why we would I think with theories that teach transcendence there's a lot of dissociation often as a consequence and there's a lot of denial and there's a lot of sort of spiritual bypassing. And I'm not suggesting that you do any of those things, but that's often my, my hesitation when people are talking to me about like, you should lose yourself or whatever, sorry, whatever the, clearly, I'm not an expert in this.

You should, what did you say, transcend yourself or there was like a. I have a realization of the illusory nature of the self and that, you know, you strive for utter selflessness or emptiness, sometimes it's described in those traditions. Okay. And I would say we strive for embodiment. So that for me personally would be the one huge distinction I see here. It's like how do I become the most embodied version of myself, which I think includes holding humanity and values and morals and spirituality. And the fact that you know it's almost like it's almost like going into an ocean and like holding water, you know that it's, It's moving and you can't really contain it.

That's how I would see it. But I think embodiment is such an important and profound piece of what is. What do you mean exactly by embodiment? It's like how you live it moment by moment? How you live it, how you experience it. It's about alignment, constant alignment between your values and your thoughts and your actions. And it's about feeling yourself truly like a lot of people are dissociated. Like, how often do you feel your arms?

Do you know your arms? Do you know your hands? When I masturbate nine times a day, I do. Then you're really acquainted. But I think a lot of people don't actually pay attention to who they are. And the body is often considered, especially, I mean, even within Christianity, it's like the sinful part of you, something that you need to overcome. And I think that's incredibly unhealthy as well. When I don't think there's a hierarchy of mind over body, I think you need both in order to be embodied.

and to be authentic. And so that's a completely different conversation. There's something else I want to know. Yes. There's a couple of things I want to know. Yes. This is so great, by the way. What's it like being an internet social media therapist?

I do you get a lot of pushback from like the therapy industry around that and judgment that you have to deal with? And why are you an internet and social media therapist? I'm glad you are, but I'm wondering. what that is about. So that was an accident. Okay. Never in the trajectory. Never something I thought about or cared about at all.

I actually was doing research in Jordan in the Middle East, and I was living there for two years. And I was studying moral injury in the context of political movements. And I was starting my doctor. I finished my master's. And I was like, I have no way to advocate, to have a community. I also have no way of getting clients. Like, I was just like, I have, I am completely irrelevant because I'm. I moved away right away.

And so I started Instagram, and I remember being like, no one's going to read content on Instagram. This was 2019. And my friend of mine is like, just try it. Like, what's the worst that can happen? I was like, this is so embarrassing. The only person likes my post is my mom. Literally.

I actually started that fully not thinking it was going to go anywhere. And even if you were writing things? Writing. So like it was like a slideshow with like written thoughts. You weren't on the thing going, you know, guys. No. No. Actually, people thought.

I was a team and no one knew what I looked like until about two years ago. So I built my entire following being completely anonymous. And that was a complete accident that then ended up changing my entire career, which I'm very fortunate and I'm incredibly blessed to have a huge platform and all the things that came with that, you know, book deals and different opportunities. But that was an accident. And so I don't know what your other question. What is it like?

it's great and there is pushback from like the purest here's the thing I was like the snooty academic and then now when I go to conferences people either love it and they're like this is amazing how did you do it we want to do it or they're like you sold and you're no longer relevant to us and you're no longer as rigorous as you should be and you're no longer so there's a ton of criticism that comes with it

It really depends who's giving it. And some, I take feedback really seriously. And so it depends who's saying it. You get a bit of everything. But at the end of the day, I don't care because I think psychotherapy was always a gated thing. It was always for the privileged. And often it was always for the intellectuals. And for me, it was just really important to provide basic psychoeducation.

And now we have that. And I never, I try to make my Instagram not prescripted in me. meaning I'm not trying to solve your problems. My only mission with any post is to get you to think about your life. Honestly, I actually want you to have more questions than answers after you read something because I want people to become more reflective. And so that's been my entire mission on this platform. And so far, I absolutely love it.

It brings me a lot of joy in my community is actually really lovely. I don't have the cyber bullying that. We have that on Solboom. We have just a beautiful community of questions and thoughtful. replies and a lot of loving support for one another. And it's really great to see. You can build, you know, a heart-based community online. It's tough. And it's another thing that's tricky is like, you know, we talk about the 23-year-old in Omaha. They're up against so much more, right? So that you have the phone that has constant endless distraction. You know, there's a weed store

on the corner. There's endless porn is right here. People are more and more disconnected. We've lost a sense of community. Yeah. But at the same time, there are places like Soul Boom. Yeah. And like the millennial therapist. Dot therapist. Millennial dot therapist.

That's my handle. Thank you. Yeah. That's your handle. There's another millennial therapist and I'm like, I think she started after me and I was like, come on, bro. Yeah. I was like, actually maybe it was before me and that's why I have the stupid dot.

But yes, that's why. You could buy that. You could buy it from her. I know, but I'm like, what's the point? It's fine. One question we asked. A lot of our guests is what is your definition of soul? It's a tricky word.

Oh, my God. Yeah. I was just having a debate about this. What is my definition of soul? I would say it's the untangible that makes you you. I go with that. It's untangible, but it's also the essence of you. And I think this dichotomy, I think that's what makes it so big.

beautiful and so you can't comprehend it fully but but you know it's there you can't help but believe it because you've experienced it to me that's that's the soul and that's why i feel like i can have soul conversations and it's why i feel like i can walk into a room and recognize someone's soul i think that's really beautiful so maybe that's the definition i love it okay that's beautiful millennial dot therapist check out sarah's book it's on me accept hard truths discover self-awareness and change your life, which is a lovely book. I'm not done with it yet, but I've really been enjoying it. I am.

Wow. I gave you $7.99 on the digital bookstore. Yeah. And what else are you up to? How else can people get to know you? So I do have a newsletter. Oh, on Substack. On Substack.

I have two, actually. One's called Notes for my phone. And that's because I write everything on my phone when I get these ideas. I love it. And it's more psychology-based. And then I started something called. called Phenomenological Society. And that's a more philosophy-based newsletter.

So if you're really nerdy and want to, I don't know, nerd out over... And these can be found on substack. Both on substack. Yeah. And then I'm doing a little career pivot, but that's irrelevant to everyone else. So there... What are you doing? What are you pivoting to?

I got to work on a short film. And a lot... You're turning into an actress. No. No. I really want to work in film and TV in terms of the creatives, the writing, the consulting, the ensuring the psychological concepts are accurate and resonant. And I think that entertainment shapes culture and reality for people.

And sometimes it does that in a beautiful way and sometimes a harms society. Yeah. And like I was raised on friends and the office and how I met your mother. And I just think... Yeah, but which one of those was your favorite? Friends. I'm just kidding. Yeah.

Thanks everybody. Bye. Salom. The Soul Boom Podcast. Subscribe now on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever else you get your stupid podcasts.