Soul Boom - Finding God in a Panic Attack w/ Victoria Hutchins

Episode Date: August 7, 2025

When a high-achieving lawyer suddenly drops her corporate life for poetry and yoga, her words manage to reach millions online. Victoria Hutchins explores religious deconstruction, what it means to ��make believe” in God again, and the soul-saving power of small joys. Victoria reads several of her most powerful poems and shares practical wisdom for those navigating anxiety, burnout, or existential crisis. THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS! Fetzer 👉⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.stamps.com/soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⏯️ SUBSCRIBE!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠👕 MERCH OUT NOW! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠📩 SUBSTACK!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  FOLLOW US! 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram: http://instagram.com/soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 👉 TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://tiktok.com/@soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  CONTACT US! Sponsor Soul Boom: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Work with Soul Boom: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Send Fan Creations, Questions, Comments: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Executive Produced by: Kartik Chainani Executive Produced by: Ford Bowers, Samah Tokmachi Companion Arts Production Supervisor: Mike O'Brien Theme Music by: Marcos Moscat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to the world. You're going to get hurt here. Your friend will tell you she's staying in, and then you'll see a picture of her at the mall with your other friends. You'll get strep throat every winter. You'll say something hateful to your sister and learn that the worst punishment is the hurt you see on her face. But has anyone told you about fireflies?

And have you been to the beach? Have you looked at a leaf closely enough to notice its veins? closely enough to understand it's the same thing as you? And did you know that in the three seconds before you kiss someone for the first time, you can feel your heartbeat in your eyelids? Welcome to the world. You're going to get hurt here, and then you'll beg for seconds. Can I have just a few more seconds?

Hey there, it's me, Rain Wilson, and I want to dig into the human experience. I want to have conversations about a spiritual revolution. Let's get deep with our favorite thinkers, friends, and entertainers about life, meaning, and idiocy. Welcome to the Soul Boom podcast. Welcome to Soul Boom, Victoria. Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here. This is a delight.

Oh, my gosh. The thrill is mine. I've never had a combination lawyer, yogi poet before. It's not a common combination. It really isn't. But you have a new book of poetry out, make believe. Yes. Poems for Hoping again.

And I'm a huge poetry fan and I've really enjoyed these poems. But I was wondering if you could start us off. It's kind of a long one, but I think it's worth it. Can you read Welcome to the World? Sure. I would love to. Let's hear this. Welcome to the World.

Welcome to the World. you're going to get hurt here. Your friend will tell you she's staying in, and then you'll see a picture of her at the mall with your other friends. You'll get strep throat every winter. You'll get a new shirt that you love. Then you'll get teased about it at school

and change into your gym clothes for the rest of the day. A stranger will drag their car key across the pain of your mom's new car that made the whole family proud. A giant pimple will sprout on the tip of your nose the day before prom. You'll say something hateful to your sister and learn that the worst punishment is the hurt you see on her face.

One Tuesday, the person who held your hand on the bus for three months will wordlessly sit with someone else. And if I'm honest, that's just the beginning. But has anyone told you about fireflies? And have you been to the beach? Have you looked at a leaf closely enough to notice its veins, closely enough to understand it's the same thing as you? Have you had a McDonald's Coke? And did you know that in the three seconds before you kiss someone for the first time, you can feel your heartbeat in your eyelids?

Or that someday, when you finally tell someone about the thing you're sure makes you irredeemable and you search their eyes for disgust, you'll find only love? Welcome to the world. You're going to get hurt here, and then you'll beg for seconds. Can I have just a few more seconds? It's beautiful. Oh, thank you. Tell me about that poem.

What was it to write that poem? What were you thinking? I was thinking about what I would have to say to someone on their first day of life. Like, what does it mean to try to explain the human experience? And I have two nieces. So in a way, I was thinking about them. Sort of like, how do you justify all of the pain that you know that, you know that they're going to feel. And this poem touches on kind of the mundane pain we experience coming of

age, things like being teased and dealing with insecurity. But of course, it's a lot deeper than that. Like suffering is a lot deeper than that. But I wanted to just kind of scratch the surface of all the little ways you'll get hurt and also all the little ways that life is beautiful. And then you'll beg for seconds. I just love that phrase. It's beautiful. Thank you. I think that hopefully we come out of this and say like, yes, I would do it again, right? You know, yes, I, on balance, it's worth it. I choose to believe that. Well, let's go back a little bit and find out how you got here with your new book of poetry. Because I just find the story fascinating. You're a lawyer. Yes. You have passed the bar in Texas.

Yes. Yeah. Why did you become a lawyer? I think that what I would have told you at the time, and I still believe this to an extent, is you don't have to love your job. I don't think that everyone who isn't in a passion career is doing life wrong. There's something to be said for keeping your passions, your passions, and having a job that gives you room to nurture your passions outside of the context of your job. And supports your family.

Right. And that supports your family. It gives you vacations and a home and some security. That's right. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that. That's right. But I think what I didn't appreciate about the practice of law, especially at large law firms, is just how consuming it is. It's extremely consuming. There's not really room to have a life outside. Had you never seen a TV show about law firms because I could have told you that I've barely been inside a law firm. I knew it. I knew it was long hours. I think I probably thought it was something like, okay, it's 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. something like that. Like it's long. I didn't have. I did not know what it was actually like.

And that's no shade to my law firm, because I think they were great. There were many people that I, you know, I had a good experience on balance, but it's, I don't think I understood. Well, tell me a little bit about this people pleasing. Was this pleasing parents, friends, teachers, you know, just the world?

Like I'm gonna, what is this kind of perfectionism and kind of overachieving kind of workaholism aspect of of you? Because I do think this is really relevant for young people who might be listening because when I go to college campuses, especially at kind of higher ranked colleges, there is such a pressure, such a pressure to feel like I have to get into the right college. I have to, not only that, like once you get in, like my summers have to be filled with the right kind of jobs and internships. And then when I get out, I have to have the right kind of recommendations and then I need to go to the right grad school and then I need to have the right

placement and the pressure is is beyond just getting into a college. It's, uh, and then so many people, 26, 28, 30 years old, just, you know, breaking down, what the hell am I doing with my life? Yeah. Yeah. And I think like, like you said with the internships and the extracurriculars, it's wild how much kids and young people are doing now. Like I think back on the clip at which I used to move through the world in high school and college, it's wild to think that that's what we're asking as kids. But yeah, I had a high drive to please. And I think that I did have a high drive to please my parents.

But I didn't feel pressured by my parents. Had I tried to do something creative, I think my parents would have supported me. And to a big extent, it was really self-imposed. Like, I'm thinking of this time in, it must have been second grade that I had a spelling test. And to that point, I had never really had to try very hard to do really well at school. And there were like a few words on the spelling list

that I didn't know how to spell. And I remember the night before the spelling test, my mom was like, okay, Victoria, you're going to study for the spelling test? And I was sort of like, like, I know how to spell eight out of the 10. I'll just make an 80. And that sort of surprised her, but she was like, okay.

And I did. I made an 80 on the test, and I did not like the feeling of making an 80. And I think that was more of a driver, you know, like going out and failing on my own. No one was ever really putting that on me. Like I did not like the feeling of making an 80. I'm very, very hard on myself in my own mind. And I think that that is something that's really common among women. Like, girls are socialized in the world to be good on so many different levels, right?

And I think that that starts early and runs really deep. And it's something that probably, like, I don't think I've escaped that at all. I think I'm still very much at people please or something I'm more aware of. But I think that that's something we kind of have to push back on our whole lives. I just read something the other day that said that it used to be that men were predominantly college educated and when they were dating or when they were getting married, it was to women that did not have college educations and that now that statistic has been reversed. And women are more likely to be college educated and dating men that aren't or have less

college or education than them, which is really surprising. But when you look at the enrollment in colleges, it really is women are up in the 60%. That's interesting. Why do you think that's happening? There's a number of different reasons. I think college has gotten outrageously expensive in a lot of ways. And who wants to come out of college with $60, $100,000 in debt or more? I think there's a lot of great ways to make a living that don't require a college.

It could be a skilled craftsman. or, you know, and, you know, my dad didn't finish college and worked as a, in the sewer construction and you can make a nice living, you know, in that world. Yes. So, and, but I do think kind of there is an increased societal pressure for, for women to achieve more. Yeah. I don't see it in terms of like gender.

I really see it just in terms of mental health pressure, just from like the kids I talk to when I speak on college campuses. And did you have a certain break? What happened for you? Was there a certain thing that happened? Or was it just a gradual leaving of that kind of way of life behind? Yeah. So I did have kind of,

there's like a moment that stands out. I remember in 2021, I had a panic attack while on a conference call. And it was, just unlike anything I've ever experienced in terms of, I felt like I was having a medical event. Like I thought I was having a heart attack or something. Everything's connected, right?

I remember I woke up that morning and it was during the time when the New York Times still had like the COVID death ticker on the homepage. Right. You know, so you wake up, you see the death ticker, how many people have died. Then you get on your call. That's just the normal.

clip of life at that time. And I remember after that experience, like, I fell out of my chair and I felt like I couldn't feel my hands. And I was working like at just a really unhealthy amount. I think I knew that something needed to change at that point. And I did leave my job at my law firm shortly after that. But I didn't leave law. I went in-house. So I went to a different legal job with slightly better work-life balance. And I think that I thought when I did that, that that would be enough for me. But I found that kind of the moment I had time to engage with creativity again, it started sort of swallowing me whole. And I was like doing my corporate job and then staying up till four in the morning, writing poetry. And it just started to swallow me. So it was sort of a slowly and then all at

once. And did the yoga happen first or the poetry happened first or kind of both together? The yoga happened first. So I started practicing yoga in law school. My second year of law school, I went to law school at Vanderbilt in Nashville and I wandered into a studio near the law school. And this was very like westernized yoga. It was basically like an exercise class. But I still had a really intense mental experience. I think I was just on the edge kind of on the brink mentally. Like I remember crying. after that class and I practiced yoga every day. Well, let's talk a little bit about that.

Sure. What happened? I've never heard of someone having kind of a transcendent kind of mental, spiritual experience doing yoga. My mom, by the way, is a yoga teacher. She has a question for you. Oh, she does? Wow.

So tell me about that. How does, I've never heard of that happening before? Well, I would say I've had. spiritual experiences in the context of my yoga practice, I wouldn't say that was one of them. I think that was just very tired, very stressed law student finds a moment in her own body and mind. You know, I would not say it was transcendent.

I would just, it was kind of the first way I found to carve out space for myself in a time when I really wasn't doing that. And when you are kind of on the brink like that, I think very simple things can be really meaningful. And it was that. So, but I certainly have had, much later experiences that I would say were really spiritual.

But I think this was just finding a moment in time for myself. And it was meaningful enough that I did start practicing yoga very consistently for years. And I did a yoga teacher training in 2018 when I graduated law school by myself. And I was really struggling with my mental health at that time. I was having like a faith crisis. My faith was unraveling. What had your faith been? And how was it unraveling?

So I was raised in the Southern Baptist Church. I was raised evangelical Christian. And in law school, I passed through kind of like a very nihilistic, atheistic phase. And I was really trying hard to make that work for me. I know you've experienced that too. I remember reading about it. about that and soul boom and I related to that a lot. And I felt, you know, I was at a fork in the road

where on one hand, I feared I was either going to, you know, burn in hill on the one hand, because I was also coming out and like dating women at that time. And that was like the big kind of catalyst of this faith crisis. And so it's like, okay, if the faith system was raised and is correct. I'm going to burn in hell. And if it's incorrect, then, like, I'm living on a floating rock in a random galaxy in an indifferent universe, you know? Wow, those are two really

extreme and unpleasant options. Right. So I didn't love that. I didn't love those. I didn't love those. Either eternal punishment or eternal meaninglessness. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so that was sort of where I was and I was in that space of struggling for quite a while. And I think yoga was one of the things that started to pull me out. And it wasn't until I graduated law school and did my yoga teacher training that I really started to like find depth in my yoga practice. And it became like a spiritual practice for me. From there, my writing and my creative work like started to come. And I wouldn't have called it poetry. I would have called it just sharing my thoughts, shouting into the void.

But that's where it started. And that happened on social media. There was a spark. Tell us about that moment. Yes. So I first started sharing on social media about Asana, about like the physical practice of yoga, things like, here's how to learn this pose.

Here's five ways to stretch to do this post. That was how I first started sharing. And I know you know the internet. Well, it's all about like multitasking and multiple ways. of holding attention, right? And I was a consumer of social media as well. And I loved watching things like the story time, videos where people would do their makeup

while telling a story. Or like, I loved videos where people would like, go to the gym and kind of talk, just these multitasking videos, right? And so... I didn't even know that was a thing. Yeah, it's a thing. It's rampant.

It's all about the multitasking. It's scary now because now there's videos on TikTok where it's like... But isn't that kind of the opposite of, yoga where you're supposed to have a kind of a singular focus of just your body and breath and presence? Absolutely. And I mean, I definitely don't consider because now when I share on social media, sometimes

I will move while I talk. I don't consider that my yoga practice because like the essence of yoga is linking movement with breath, with mind, with soul, hopefully, right? You know, so I think that the way I move is definitely inspired by my yoga practice. It's inspired by Asana, but I don't think that. it would be correct to say that if you're moving and focused on anything else, you know, I don't consider teaching my yoga, like teaching yoga to be a part of my yoga practice because my focus is on students, right?

So, yeah, definitely I think that in many ways the internet is antithetical to not just yoga, but to spirituality, right? And it's interesting to be someone who considers myself a spiritual person, would like to think I have a spiritual message, and uses the Internet as part of that, right? I had the same conversation with Rhett and Link, and we have the same conversation here at Soul Boom. And at Soul Pancake before that is like, are we part of the problem? Right. You know, being on these platforms that are all algorithmically programmed.

Right. And a great contributor to the mental health crisis. in and of themselves, even if we're providing positive, uplifting content and the comments are good, you know, are we still part of the problem? It's a tricky one. Yeah. And I mean, it's, it's like the classic question of when you become aware you're in a bad place, do you stay and try to make it better? Right. Or do you get out, you know? Right. So if you have problems with your church. Right. Do you stay in your church and try and reform it from the inside? Or do you say, fuck you, fuck all y'all and leave it.

And I think, like, to be fair to the internet, I would have defended it for a really long time. For a long time, I thought a lot of the criticisms of social media were kind of a moral panic, especially in the times before algorithmic social media. Like, I'm sure you remember the days on Instagram when you could, or, you know, I don't know, but you could scroll and it would tell you,

you've seen everything, because your feed was quite simply a chronological showing of content from the people you followed. Yes, exactly. There was choice. And now we have much less choice. And it won't even show you people that you follow. It wants you to follow the algorithm.

It doesn't want you to, it doesn't want me to see what Angela Kinsey has posted. Right, right. And so like the connective, there were lots of really good defenses for social media related to like, well, I get to see what my old friend from high school is doing who I, and now you don't anymore. Right. And the same with Facebook. It's even worse on Facebook. Right. And I still think there are good things about the internet.

Like I get to meet and talk to so many people every day. Like it's, to some extent, I think it's like lighter fluid for whatever impulses and intentions you put into it. But then there's also really sinister forces at play. So I don't know. But going back, I derailed you from what you were saying. Sure. You were, you loved the videos where people were doing something but storytelling. And so then you started.

Yeah. So I got a little like clip on microphone that I intended to use to teach online yoga classes so I could move while I talked. But I started using it to move while I talked about other stuff. I would just talk about life or a lot of my community are women in their 20s. I'm in my early 30s. So I would talk about things I wish I knew in my 20s, just little lighthearted videos about friendship, dating. And that's when I started to really grow. And I also started to enjoy the internet a lot more when what I was sharing got more personal.

So that's kind of how the transition happened. And at some point, people who are watching started saying things like using words like poetry or you should write a book or writer. Like those were not ways I thought about myself at all. And I still struggle to think of myself as a poet or a writer because I think. I think there is a big divide in creative industries in general, especially in the literary community and poetry between kind of like people who came up on the internet versus sort of like literary poets and people with MFA. Like I still have some imposter syndrome of thinking of myself as a poet. But there's some really bad Instagram poets. Yes.

And there are some really bad PhD poets. That's right. So that's right. Yeah. Good poetry, like the one you read, which I think is just lovely and really irrelevant, is it's hard to come by. Well, and like, I think there's something to be said. I've watched so many think pieces slamming the TikTok poets where the poem at hand

is essentially a text message. Like, you don't love me enter next line anymore, you know, and that's the whole poem, something like that. And like, I understand. That's profound. Well, I understand. I understand that reaction. But also, hey, a million people liked that.

That really resonated with a lot of high school girls. So who am I to say? Sure. And on some level, I think sometimes when we look at stuff like that that's so well received and we like scoff at it, maybe I'm just mad that that guy, 10 million views or whatever. You know what I mean? Like I'm something that resonates with people. Where's the line? I'm very much, I have complicated feelings about like the gatekeeping of what is art and kind of the whole like social media is killing art of it all.

On one hand, I do think social media encourages us to spell things out, right? And just delete nuance from our messages because there's no space for it in short form content. And I think that it is important that like art is chewy. and that's maybe definitional to a poem that everything isn't on the surface. But on the other hand, I don't know. I don't want to be like the people who were shaking their fist of the sky when rock music was happening and saying like, oh, you know, it's not as...

Or rap music. Right. You know? It's always been that way. I just think there's room in the world for all of it. You know, it's not either or. Totally. There's room in the world for someone with a master.

degree who has studied Baudelaire and, you know, roomy and, and there's room in the world for people on TikTok writing about a breakup and putting it in a beautiful font, you know, with some flowers around it. And as long as there's the human heart is being expressed, as long as language is being used. It's poetry, right? I think so. I just want to give a big thank you and a gigantic shout out to one of our sponsors, the Fetzer Institute. In an era where mental health is a growing concern, Fetzer's insights into the role of spirituality and building resilience isn't just timely, it's essential. They offer hope for what so many of us are seeking.

Thank you for your support. Fetzer. Visit them at fetzer.org. I write a lot about spirituality, and I think spirituality is inherently controversial. I write a lot about God outside of the confines of like, you know, Judeo-Christian God. I know you think and write a lot about that too. And I'm sure you know how controversial. That sort of thing is. It's very, you want to get a lot of views on the Internet. And I wouldn't say this was my intention, but do something like talk about God using non-masculent pronouns.

That's going to blow things up. Blow things up, you know. So there are things like that. I wrote a lot about mental health. Let's go back a beat or two to your spiritual dilemma of like, because I'm queer, I'm going to burn in hell, or life is meaningless and we're a random assortment of molecules that somehow has formed consciousness.

What took you out of that and where did you land? Yeah. Out of that kind of false dichotomy. Maybe I'll talk about make believe for a moment because a lot of it is about the past path out of that. And the title is kind of the essence of, I think, what got me out. Make Believe, the title on one hand is about kind of nostalgia playing make a belief. That's one theme of the book. But another question that I run within the book is the idea of can we make ourselves

belief? Can we choose to believe? Can we just opt out of that binary? Right. And so ultimately, I think where I landed is I think questions about purpose and divinity and afterlife are unanswerable, I know what the answer, what answer I want. And so I choose to believe in divinity and purpose, and I look for reasons to believe I'm right. And that's where I've landed. I would say, truly, in my heart of hearts, I'm just a skeptic person, skeptical person, but I'm a hope person, Right. And so I had many years of like really struggling with where I was spiritually. I have always been super focused on death since I was a small child, terrified of death, like would wake my parents up in the middle of the night asking about what happens when we died or super focused about the spiritual destiny of people of other religions, you know, just very focused on that. And I think that goes hand in hand with knowing that I wasn't straight from a really young age. And so these theoretical conversations about hell were very resonant to me because I was always afraid of going to hell from a really young age.

And so in my 20s when I was in law school, I sat in that space of trying to make peace with walking away from my faith and believing in nothing like I went really. really far down the rabbit hole of kind of like the absurdist albert camus like we're the myth of sycophis like we must imagine sycifis happy this idea of dancing at the end of meaning and finding joy in the purposelessness of life like nothing matters so everything can matter I tried really hard to make that work but it didn't for me and so I think I've had the past probably three, five years has been like a slow walk back to being a spiritual person. And that's been really, really beautiful. What handholds have brought you back to being a spiritual person?

I'm curious what those kind of various steps of belief are and where they led you. Yeah. So I had an experience in 2021. It was going to sound really woo-woo, but it's like the only kind of true spiritual experience I think I've ever had. I was really at a peak of kind of being in spiritual crisis. I was calling my sister every night, like crying about just sort of not knowing what I thought and feeling really purposeless. and I went to this cabin in the woods by myself. And I drive like a tiny little smart car, you know, the smart cars.

Okay. Tiny little smart car. And I almost got into an accident with an 18 wheeler. And I'm already terrified of driving. Like I'm a very nervous person in general. And so that really upset me, right? And so I spent the whole rest of that drive just crying. hyper-finalating, like just super nervous.

Get to the cabin, and I'm reading the book Inner Engineering by Sard Guru, or I was at the time. Do you know that book? I know of it, yeah. Yeah. And I was kind of trying to calm myself down. And of course, I opened the book to what he was talking about. I specifically remember the line of something like, no matter where you're going, no matter what you're doing, you're going to a football game, you're going to work. you are always just walking step by step to your grave.

Not like an ideal line to read when I'm already like flying into orbit, just having a panic. So and these cabins, like I was at a cabin that didn't have any Wi-Fi, didn't have any way to kind of run for myself. So I just laid awake all night, like absolutely panicking. And eventually I fell asleep. And at that time, like, that was kind of normal for me. I was really spinning out. So I wake up the next morning in the cabin. I'm like happy to be in the cabin.

I'm not thinking about it. I'm making my coffee. I like made a little Instagram post, whatever. I'm just going about my morning. And I am sitting in bed having my coffee looking out the window. And it like, it's very hard to explain this experience

because there was just nothing exceptional about it in any way. I was just looking out the window. There was a bird and a tree. And I just had this. experience of lots of different things that spiritually I had tried to believe and that I'd been taught, kind of like the idea of when I die, what I am essentially is alive and everything else. And so there won't be anything super significant or bad happening when like this person dies, you know? And it was such a strange experience. I don't know how long I was.

was sitting there, but I came out of it and just had so much peace. And I was quiet for like several hours. And then I'm a talker. When something has happened, I'm going to tell my people. So I called my sister being like, something just happened. And like, I don't think I'm as scared of death anymore. Like I don't know what happened. And it was totally sober, by the way. Like completely sober, no mushrooms, no psychedelics, nothing like that, completely sober. But I call my sister. And she's, she's a doctor. who's like, good, like, I'm glad you're feeling better. I call my now husband and my boyfriend at the time, same thing. He's like, glad you're having fun, you know, because what are you even going to say?

It's like such a, just strange. Glad you're not afraid of death anymore. Cool. Have fun. But that was a really powerful turning point, I think, in my spirituality. And that was like maybe the first step back to considering myself a spiritual person. And of course, like experiences like that don't last. But even knowing, sort of having the memory of that experience is really powerful to me.

And who's to say, like, of course, if that was truly a soul thing, a God thing, a spiritual thing, or if it was you had a really stressful night and something was going on mentally. But it doesn't really matter to me because it gave me a lot of peace. And I used to spend a lot of time digging for what is the truth, what is metaphysical, what isn't, what's a function of our brain, what's a function of the soul. I'm not as focused on that anymore. I care a lot more about kind of like the outcomes of spirituality instead of like what is capital T true, if that makes sense. I'm wondering for young people listening, you were able to make this transition out of law. to yoga, yoga teaching, but being an influencer, poet as well, that's a big, risky, brave move. If there's other people listening that are thinking about making a huge transition out of their

kind of chosen profession to something maybe more fulfilling and rewarding for their soul, what advice would you give? How would you speak to someone about that? I'm sure you get a lot of young women saying, I want to leave my job as X, and I want to find my bliss and my passion, which can be tricky, right? Yeah. Because you don't want to lead people into poverty and into pipe dreams. That's right.

You had kind of built a large following before you kind of let the reins go in terms of a law profession. So how would you address that? If you're feeling a scratch, a call to... follow a dream, it is my belief it won't go away. You know, I tried to stuff that down for a really long time and it doesn't go away. So I think that's something to think about. I think that you do have to scratch itches. However, I'm not the person who's saying, yeah, run off into the sunset, quit your job, take the leap. And it's the same with coming out too. Like I get a lot of questions

about that. And I'm not the person saying like, come out of the closet, be who you are, because it can go really horribly. Same with quitting your job, right? And we have to talk about that. Like, the internet is a parade of success stories when it comes to creative work. And that's not the reality of, of, right. There's not a channel of like the, uh, yeah, you don't see the channels of all the people who quit their jobs and tried and it didn't work, you know, you don't, you don't see those, but there are many. Um, so I think that, following a creative calling or however you would describe that, it doesn't have to look like quitting your job. I would probably encourage that. I never want to present myself as someone who

just leaped off the deep end and it worked out because it's not true. You're right. I did have a large community by the time I quit my job. My last day at my corporate job, I announced my book the very next day. You know what I mean? And so like there are risks either way. There's risks to staying in a job or a life that you don't like in the name of pragmatism. There's risks to leaping off the deep end. There's risks to trying to ride both horses with one butt. You know, there's no way out of wondering whether you made the right choice. So how do you navigate that?

I think it's personal. You know, I don't have an answer for everyone for that. I think that most of us, if we get still and quiet with ourselves, like, we know whether you're having a bad day in a good life or you're kind of wearing someone else's shoes. And I don't think anyone should spend their whole life wearing someone else's shoes. And if you are the type of person who can't live a fulfilling life without really going full stop for your creative calling, that's something you need to learn about yourself and try. And maybe it will involve hardship in a variety of ways.

But many people aren't that. Many people could engage with their creativity or their passion in a much less risky way and feel fulfilled. So it's just figuring out which one are you, you know, which risk is worth it to you because there's no, there's no riskless way. Talk to me a little bit about the link between yoga and poetry, because I had never thought about them being connected in any way. And you've kind of proven me wrong there in watching some of your videos and your work about there's something about

the movement that is seeking transcendence and the use of language, that it both feel like an excessive. expression of the spirit. One is involving language, one is involving the body. But I'd love to hear more about that intersection. Yeah, absolutely. Well, so I think that you're absolutely right.

There is, so much learning happens in the physical body, right? So even thinking about asana alone, so the physical practice of poses, there is something creative and expressive about that. But also, yoga involves a lot more than physical movement. and it involves spiritual practices, right, and meditation. And I think those things are very clearly related to poetry, right? At least for anyone who considers themselves a spiritual person, like their spirituality is probably an important part of their art.

And so for me, the more clear link is kind of like the ways that, kind of how yoga has changed, how I see the world, how I see divinity, how I think about purpose. hopefully that comes through in my poetry. And I think I've learned so, it was so freeing to learn about other conceptions of divinity beyond. And you write about this a lot in soul boom. And I love how you talk about it, but beyond kind of the idea of like an anthropomorphized Judeo-Christian being in the sky, God.

Like I learned a lot about other conceptions of divinity through my yoga practice, through study of yoga philosophy and Hinduism. And so that has really affected my poetry and kind of just the way I see the world. Does that answer your question? Not entirely. Help me. Well, it would be like someone who plays the violin

and does while doing modern dance. Like there's a connection there, but... Oh, you mean like the mind-body connection. Yeah, I mean, you're taking two expressions and combining them in a way that is really unique and that people, especially like you say, your audience of women in their 20s, just are wild for. And you're good at both of them. Thank you. And but again, I'm just wondering about that, about that, just about that connection.

Because I had never thought about yoga and poetry together before. And it's kind of like one of those mashups. Yeah. You know, it's like you have ice cream that has like olive oil on it. And you're like, wait, what? That sounds good, though. It's really good. Yeah, that sounds good.

Well, I think that's the cool thing about the internet is you do have people, you know, you, there are people who just all the unique different combinations of interests. There's a place for that. Like, there's nothing that's too niche for the internet. And that's very true. Really cool thing. And I think that anything you want to see, you can probably Google, you know, to, you know, to, you know, dog paws and rice crispy treats. Exactly.

And there's going to be something matching up. Yeah. And I think that like finding your voice, whether it's the context of social media or something else, is all about kind of like the unique coalescence of the things that make you, you. And so I think that's what my social media presence is. It's just I'm a yoga practitioner and I love writing.

And so that felt like a natural. fit for me more than trying to do makeup and tell a story when I don't know how to do my makeup. You know what I mean? Like, it's fine and kind of just the things that resonate with you. But I don't know that I do think that, at least for me personally, I find creative inspiration in the moment of moving while I talk. Like, I normally have thought before, like I write and then I share. So I don't, I don't think that my movement is inspiring what's coming out of my mouth very much. Okay. What have you learned from your followers? What do they, what do they tell you, what did they respond to? And how is there kind of a synergy between you and these millions of people that

are hanging on your words, on your movement, on your poetry? The main thing I notice in talking to people on the internet, it's such a privilege to get to hear a little about the lives of so many people, right? And what I find is that we are all so similar, you know? And I think of myself as speaking to a very specific type of person like a woman in their 20s. However, all people of all ages and all genders are dealing with the same things. We're all reckoning with heartbreak. We're all trying to figure out what our role in the world is. We all want to hear that we're loved. We all like are looking for signs in a universe that we've made the right choices. We all. And so I think that's the big thing that stands out is that we're so much more similar than we

think we are. And it's shocking sharing on the internet. You hear from so many people that you know in real life. Like people or partners at your law firm or just. all these different people who will share with you that they related to something. And it's like, I never would have thought you would relate to that, you know. And so I think it's taught me to not make assumptions about people and what they're dealing with, struggling with. And it showed me that we're all really similar. That's beautiful.

You know, I'm glad, I think, if I'm fortunate enough to get to write another book, it will be harder to be as vulnerable. because now I'm aware of this part of it where it's like out in the world and everybody I ever know has access to it, you know? And so, you know, it's a very personal book where I share a lot about a lot of personal things. So when you say that, is there a poem that comes to mind? Could you share it with us?

Yeah, I think the poems about sexuality are really vulnerable for me. That's still like a touchy subject. I'd be happy to share one. Let me find. Yeah, I'd love to hear. Let me find one. We're all about getting folks

at their most vulnerable here. I'll show this one. So this is called this or that, and it's about bisexuality. This or that. They say bisexuals are greedy, and they're right if they're talking about me. My elementary school breakfast was five fried eggs, and most mornings I'd board the bus wishing I'd had a six. On fried chicken day in the cafeteria, my classmates would trade legs for wings, wings for breasts. I held my tray close to my chest, wary of giving up any pieces. I liked them all. For years, I prayed the hunger away.

I brought God pieces in myself I didn't want, like a pawn shop. If I don't think that way for a whole month, will you take it? He never bid. Spend enough time with a growling stomach and you become a bottomless pit. It is what it is. I want it both ways. I want heads, tails, and the beveled edge in between. I want shotgun and a bit of.

I want to drive. I want your love any way it's served. I want to eat it with my hands. I want to lick my fingers. I want the left side of the menu and the right. I want to bat my eyelashes while I joke with the waitress. I'll have one of everything, please. So like thinking about my family, my aunts, you know, what I mean.

Reading that, yeah. Your pastor from your childhood. Yeah, my husband. Like, geez, that's, that feels vulnerable, right? That's pretty, it's risky. I mean, you're writing about desire. Yeah.

And how it's hardwired into us. Right. And it's sometimes unreasonable. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. But that's amazing that you're able to do that. I really applaud you.

I don't think I could write a poem that was that, you know, revealing about a topic like that. Thanks. I felt that your book, Luce. very personal too. So I don't know that I agree with that, but, but it is vulnerable. And I, I will say, like, the, to be affirmed, like, my family liked the book. And that felt so good, you know, because it was such a true and complete picture of me. And so, like, that goes to show the power of vulnerability. Like, you, you, the benefit of being all out there is, like, the acceptance in love feels really complete.

And I'm sure you've heard from followers of yours and fans of yours that you've inspired them to risk more, to share more, to write more, to reveal more. Yeah. And that's a scary thing. I don't know how to feel when that happens because I'm like, oh, I hope it goes well for you. You know, like when someone says, you inspired me to divorce my husband. I'm like, oh, shit, you know, like.

I've quit my job, left my partner, and I'm now a spoken word poet and a beekeeper. And you inspired me. You're like, oh, goodness. I mean, that's beautiful. And it resonates with me when people tell me that. But I do think. But it's scary. Yes.

And you have to, you have to believe that anything that anyone ever says, you've inspired them to do, it's something they wanted to do. You know what I mean? Like, I believe art is just. just a nudge. No one's going to go and quit their job because of a poem unless they already wanted to quit their job or leave their husband, you know? So that gives me a little bit of peace. But yeah, it's wild sending a book out into the world. And it's beautiful to get to talk to people about all the different ways it's landed. Like that's one of the coolest things about art is it stops belonging to you and what you meant becomes secondary in some way the moment it's out in the

world. Like, I, I don't believe in the idea of, like, you misunderstood my poem. I don't believe in that. It meant something different to you than I intended it, but that's, that's not to say you're incorrect. It has its own reality. Yeah. Part of the book that moved me was there's kind of a spiritual practice inherent in a lot of these poems. And it has to do with hope and wonder and making believe. And so many spiritual teachers, especially in the Hindu tradition, talk about experiencing life as a child with innocence, joy, hopefulness, wonder, awe, curiosity. These are the elements that we most love in a child, and they get kind of beaten out of us in our teenage years and in our in our 20s and 30s and certainly by the time we're in our 50s. But can you talk a little bit about

that process about hope, wonder, all curiosity as a spiritual path? I'm thinking of nostalgia. That's a big theme in the book and the way it engages with all those themes, hope, wonder, joy is heavily related to that. And I think that currently we're kind of digesting that concept of nostalgia, especially as it relates to women, like the girlhood and Barbie movie of it all, as this like vapid surface level thing. I think that nostalgia is a really powerful tool. It reminds us that it's our nature to feel hopeful. It's our nature to feel joyful. We weren't born doubting ourselves and struggling to accept ourselves and feeling limited in our ability to access wonder. Like, that's what's unnatural, right? And so I think one of the through lines

of make-belief is kind of this idea that when we're little, we're really in touch with the preciousness of everything that's happening here. Like, there's a poem in it that talks about kind of the idea of being a baby. And like when people you love leave the room, you erupt, you're devastated. Like, There's this wisdom of like babies and children of knowing how fleeting and precious time is. Like a little kid, like begging to stay up a few more minutes, five more minutes. We understand we're so much less separated from what we're doing here when we're little. And I think that when we get old, when we get closer to death, it seems like maybe we remember again. you know, we suddenly panic like, oh, I'm remembering the point of all this.

I'm remembering how short this all is. But in the middle, we get lost and we forget. And so, yeah, that's a big through line of the book. And I hope that we can remember that things like wonder and, joy aren't childlike. You know, we were meant to stay that way. We were never meant to lose those things. I'm sure you interact a lot with your fans that have shared about their mental health

struggles and crises. And we certainly see that happening in the world right now, especially with young women and girls. But, you know, boys too. What balm do you offer in your work? what wisdom have you gained? What advice would you give to someone who's struggling with anxiety, depression, loneliness? When you're really struggling, there's almost nothing anyone can say that's going to offer you peace.

And types of talking that really made me feel even more hopeless when I was struggling my most. Or kind of the whole, you just have to find your why. you have to stay hopeful. Like, it's so annoying to hear that when you're really struggling because it feels so impossible. I call it sometimes toxic positivity. And you can find that on the internet a lot. I know that I've talked to young people and they get up and they follow this person and they're like, get up at 4 a.m. and work out and then take your cold plunge and then write your to-do list and your vision board.

And then you do that. And you're just like, I can barely get out of bed and make a bowl of cereal. Like, and then it makes you feel worse. Exactly. It's like you are already feeling bad and now you feel like you're failing at the manual to get better, which is exhausting. And I think that one type of thing I like to share

on the internet related to people who might be struggling with suicidality is reasons to stick around. And they're not these big, deep, reasons to live like purpose-driven things. It's like there's a cool movie coming out in two weeks or there's something cool happening in the sky, like a lunar eclipse a month from now.

Like these very imminent things. Practical meat and potatoes things. Yeah, things that because when I was struggling my most, like I couldn't access deep joy, deep meaning, nothing like that. But like my breakfast sandwich still tasted good. I still likes TV. I still, you know,

they're small little tethers you can cling to. And I think that when you're really struggling, that's kind of all you have. Like there's nothing, there's nothing anyone can say to make you like want to be here in a deeper, longer way. So it's sort of like, it's like rock climbing,

like just get to the next rock. And eventually there's a landing, you know? Yeah, little handholds. Mm-hmm. One day at a time, one week at a time that keep you going. Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful.

Is there another poem that you could share about making believe about finding joy, hope, and wonder? Yeah. Yeah, I'd love to. As a path forward. Yeah. So this is called grounding exercise. After my really hard chapter, I volunteered for a crisis hotline for a long time. and I wrote this during that time.

Grounding exercise. The first few months of staying alive might feel like going through the world's dumbest motions. You'll try everything anyone says will help and maybe none of it will. You'll buy a gratitude journal and roll your eyes as you write down affirmations. I want to be here.

It will get better. I see the good in me. You'll read the book that cured your neighbor's dad's depression and hate it. You'll have your coffee on the front porch instead of the couch every day in August and barely even notice you're outside. You'll clinch your jaw through countless guided meditations, inhaling through your nose and exhaling to a silky, disembodies voices count of three. You'll tell the crisis hotline worker three things you can see, two things you can hear, and one thing you can feel, and all of it will be made up. In the end, the only currency your pain will accept is time.

Once you've paid the piper his days, any mundane thing might lift the fog. Your sisters laugh, the sound of your dog's toenails on the hardwood, the same song you listen to every day. Slowly, your soul will blink its eyes open. After a hibernation, you would have sworn, was a death. And there it will be. Just when you thought you were dead inside. One thing you can feel.

Wow. So. That's powerful. Oh, thank you, Rainer. I appreciate that. Is there more of a story around that having to do with that crisis hotline? Yeah. So I, I mean, I've used crisis services and I've been on the other end of. Wow. You've called in and taken calls. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that it is, it does feel so stupid when you're in crisis and someone's, oh, tell me five things.

You can see what colors can you see? It's like. Yeah. But I think that what I can see now is these things are all about finding tiny touch points, just getting to the next moment, right? And eventually something will break through the fog. And I think there is something to be said for going through the motions, not the, you know, 30 steps, skincare, wake up at 5 in the morning, you know, but just finding small pieces of joy, small ways to connect with the world around you. I think there's something to be said for that. How would you define the word soul? I think I'm a spiritual person, so I think soul to me is really related to God.

I would say, I think soul is the small piece of maybe someone else would say life or love. I would say God, right, that exists in each of us and in every living thing in nature. Is you saying a piece of the divine that's within each of us, but that's also within animals and trees and birds? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. That's lovely. That's great. You went through quite a journey from evangelical to coming out as queer, bisexual,

struggling with your spiritual journey, coming around to another kind of way of being a spiritual person. Let's talk about God a little bit. I think God and death are maybe my two favorite topics in the world. In your poetry, you refer to God as an imaginary friend, as a woman on Main Street, even as a waitress. How do you define God and how do you see God in the kind of regularness and the ordinariness of life? Yeah.

My favorite poet is Mary Oliver. And she writes beautifully about this idea that like attention is the beginning of devotion. And I love what you write in Soul Boom, too, about the idea of sacredness as a condition. I really believe that. I believe that almost anything is holy if we pay enough attention. Like, I think everything has the potential to be sacred, holy, of God, part of God, right? So when I write about God as a waitress, that's from a poem called God on Main Street that is about this idea of kind of being approached by someone.

You know, I walk my dog in downtown Houston, and there are the people who ask you if you know God. And it's the idea of, oh, well, God's growing out of the sidewalk. God is the woman across the street without shoes. God is everywhere. So I just saw God. She was right there. Or she's the person who's talking to you,

like if you're at a lunch, one person who doesn't look away when you're being awkward and telling a really long story, like God is just the best of us, right? And so I think that God's everywhere. And I know that's probably really unpalatable to people with maybe a more Judeo-Christian faith background.

And I have a lot of respect for that conception of God too. I'm not the type of person who thinks it's silly to think of God as this being in the sky. I don't think that's silly at all. I think that's beautiful. Some of the people that I spiritually respect most are Christians. And I think that that's one way to connect spiritually. And then there's people like me who have this more woo-woo-uncontained way.

And that's just a different way. One of the things that always strikes me is because every episode that I talk about God faith, spirituality or a spiritual path. Or I mentioned my own faith, the Baha'i faith, there's always someone in the comments who says, Jesus is the way and the truth and the life. And there's no way to the Father except through me, quoting the Bible.

And it's like, and I feel like, amen, brother. That's great. That is so good for you and that's your truth as you find it. So if that is true, then go do what Jesus did. go serve the poor and wash the feet of the downtrodden, give up your material belongings and walk in his path. Yeah. So amen, but let's see that in action because I often don't see the people that have done that

and that are working in that way, proselytizing in the same way. Yeah, I think that like the whole question of what it means to be a Christian is interesting because it's like, well, do you mean a follower of the modern Christian church or do you mean a follower of Christ, right? Because like you're saying, as I know, you know much better than I do. Like, Jesus was radically against greed and flipping temple tables. And, you know, it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the gates of heaven. Like, I think we, we, Jesus has gotten an interesting edit. Man cannot live by Brad alone.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've been thinking a lot about that question of being a Christian and what that means. And I think I really believe in the teachings of Jesus. However, that's my sticking point that you're mentioning that comment. No one shall pass through the kingdom of heaven except through me because I don't believe that, you know? And I think that is part of what it means to be a Christian, at least to people who are raised in the same.

in like evangelical faith backgrounds. So it's interesting and I completely agree that I think the people most focused on Jesus and using Jesus' name the most are often like have a very different picture of what. Or live a life profoundly dissimilar to the life of Jesus. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, they would quote to Paul saying, you know, essentially faith alone, you know,

You don't need to act like Jesus. You just need to have faith in Jesus, and that's good enough. So you can accrue all the material crap you want and behave however you want. But if you're asking for forgiveness at the end of the day and you surrender to Jesus, then you are given grace and forgiveness. So there's this constant battle in Christianity between faith and deeds. You know, as James said that faith without deeds is. is dead.

Yeah. And I think that, listen, when I look at people who are really rabidly evangelical, because there's plenty of people who I interact with on the internet every day in that vein as well,

and I think it boils down to fear. Like, people have used religion to make sense of the hardest things that have ever happened to them to find their way in the world, and I'm not justifying certain types of behavior. And yet I think we can acknowledge that, like,

fears are really powerful thing that controls a lot of the ways we move through the world. And some people, I think, who evangelize really intensely, are genuinely afraid for, especially people who know you, you know, they're genuinely afraid for your spiritual destiny. And I can, I can empathize with that. And then I think there's sort of the way that religion has become like politicized, and that's a very different thing. You know, it's just everything boils down to, I have a lot of empathy for that type of thing, depending on what the intention is and where it's coming from. Sure. Well, this has been a wonderful conversation, but I've been really struck by your poems

and how you read them. And when your mouth forms those syllables and those images come out, like they really catch fire. And why don't we just end with another poem that you want to share based on the conversation that we just had? Yeah, I'd love to. Let me find one. I'll share this one. I think this is a good one.

This is called Map says you are here. I went looking where they said heaven is, but I must have taken a wrong turn. I couldn't find the throne. I didn't hear the choir. No one I love was there. So I came back down to earth, wet from the clouds. Nothing to show for all my effort. I walked in the house, head drooped with defeat.

I sat in my dad's chair, still warm from the ballgame. My mom was making fried bologna, like her mom used to. My niece was singing her show songs, and it sounded a little... Holy. I cocked my head to the side, looked at the map. Could this be what they meant? They said, on earth, as it is in heaven. They said, on earth.

So that poem's about the idea that maybe all the things we look for afterlife are here. Hmm, hmm. That's beautiful. Thank you, Rain. This was such an honor. I'm such a, I loved soul boom so much. Thanks. And of course, I love your comedic acting as well.

So this is just a delight. Oh, gosh. So, thanks. It's been a pleasure having you, really. Great stuff. Thanks for sharing your work and onwards and upwards and upwards. Thank you. So you teach yoga as well as talk about yoga and do poses online?

Yes. And, you know, my mom's a yoga teacher. Wow. My mom, yeah, Shea Cooper, retired. She was teaching yoga before anyone was teaching yoga. She was teaching yoga in like the early 80s. Oh, wow. So she's an OG.

And people didn't know what it was. She would try and rent spaces and they would think that it was going to be like orgies or something like that. So could you teach me a yoga pose? Yeah. I'd love to teach you a yoga pose. Right here. We do it right here in the studio.

And what's like a pose that for you, kind of summates, summarizes the soul boom experience, expressing your soul. Yeah. And like kind of like sums up what I'm trying to do here for it in terms of a spiritual revolution. Spiritual revolution is daring. So I say we do kind of daring pose. Let's do Bacassana, crow pose.

Crow? Yeah. I don't know what that is. Yeah. Just like that. Yeah. Is that it? That's what you nailed it?

Okay. Thanks. No, so what do we do? Okay, so are we going to do it right here? Sure. Okay. We're going to have to get on the table. On the table?

On the table? Is that what we should do? Okay, let's do it. Okay. Here we go. I'm going to take my shoes off too. Is that okay? Okay, sure.

Yeah, I think we should. Okay. Let's go. Let's do it. You got this. Okay. So maybe you go right here. Face.

Face me. Yeah. You're doing amazing. That's perfect. Okay. So you're going to plant your pants. Am I okay with my socks on? You might want to take them off honestly. It might go harder. Right in front of you. Nice. Wrists under your shoulders and you're going to come. Ooh, did you hear that knee pop? You're going to come onto your toes. Yeah. Okay. So I'll show you and then maybe you try, right? Okay. So you're going to plant your shins on your forearms. And then you're going to start to lean forward letting your gaze be about two feet in front of you. You could, yeah, you can be moving, Kartik, and roaming, yeah. Okay.

So you're shifting your balance onto your forearms, letting your gaze about two feet in front of you. Uh-huh. And then you're going to play around with one. What? And then maybe two. What? It's even harder on the table, so this might be too daring.

But give you go, even just floating one leg. So, yeah, so shift your gaze, gaze about here. Nice. Now what would it feel like to just float one foot away? Nice, so strong. What about the other? You got it, you got it. Woo!

That was it. Do we call when we do it? Yeah, yeah. Let's try to go. Let's do it together. I think we should. Okay, ready? I knew sandwich. You did great.

Fun. Thanks for watching Soul Boom, folks. As you've never seen it before. The Soul Boom podcast. Subscribe now on YouTube, Spotify. Apple Podcasts, and wherever else you get your stupid podcasts.