Soul Boom - How I Met Your Maker w/ Josh Radnor

Episode Date: March 24, 2026

Actor Josh Radnor (How I Met Your Mother) unpacks the deeper spiritual questions that fame, success, and storytelling can’t answer. SPONSORS! 👇 Proton (protect your privacy for FREE!) 👉 ��proton.me/soulboom⁠ Nutrafol (Code: SOULBOOM for $10 off!) 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://nutrafol.com ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⏯️ SUBSCRIBE!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠👕 MERCH OUT NOW! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠📩 SUBSTACK!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  FOLLOW US! IG: 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://instagram.com/soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://tiktok.com/@soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  CONTACT US! Sponsor Soul Boom: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Work with Soul Boom: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Send Fan Creations, Questions, Comments: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Executive Produced by: Kartik Chainani Executive Produced by: Ford Bowers, Samah Tokmachi Companion Arts Theme Music by: Marcos Moscat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A quick shout out to our sponsor, Proton. Go to Proton.m.m. slash Soul Boom to take control of your private and digital life. And see thicker, stronger, faster-growing hair with less shedding in just three to six months with Nutrafall. For a limited time, Neutrophol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping when you visit NutraFol.com and enter promo code Soul Boom. That's NutraFol.com, spelled N-R-A-F-O-L-L-com, promo code, Soul Boom. Enjoy the show. I've never, by the way, been more nervous for any performance than I am for this one.

For right now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. This has got me really riled up. This is two of the greatest sitcoms in American history going toe to toe. The stakes are real. I know. It's too real. It's high stakes. Yeah. It's really the future of television. We have a similar taste for depth and going to these spaces. I was very hard on myself around the show. You know, he's playing the Vulnerable Virtuous Center. Pam Fryman, who directed almost every episode, she pulled me aside early in the first season. And she said,

Hey there, it's me, Rain Wilson. And I want to dig into the human experience. I want to have conversations about a spiritual revolution. Let's get deep with our favorite thinkers, friends, and entertainers about life, meaning, and idiocy. Welcome to the Soul Boom podcast. Josh Radner. from the soul boom.

Hey, man. Thanks for having me. You're a great actor. We both went to NYU. We trained in the theater. Yeah. We did a hell a lot of Shakespeare. Yeah.

What the viewers at home are wondering is like, frankly, who's better? Is that what they're wondering? That's what they're thinking right now. Yeah. So the only way that we're going to figure this out is an act off. All right. All right.

So here goes. we're going to have a situation. Did you warm up before this or no? I worked with my coach for an hour before. You did? Yeah. Yeah. I start most mornings that way, so I'm good.

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you do your tongue stretches or your animals? Deb Hecht and I do an hour each morning. Oh, wow. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah.

Amazing. We'll see about your siblings. So here's the scenario. Yeah. his name is Spencer and he is an AI mad genius programmer. He's putting the pieces together of his final programming of an AI. And he's sure that it is going to uplift humanity and make the world a better place, that it is the solution for all of our needs, that it's going to solve hunger and the energy. crisis and climate change. And then as he finishes the final programming, he realizes that he has

wrought destruction upon the human race. Right. So this is what Spencer's going through. So his first line is, and away we go, is the first one. It's all coming together. I can give you these if you want. And well, there goes that. Okay. Okay. It's all coming together. And then, his second line is, what have we here? And then the third line is, well, there goes that. So it's all coming together. What have we here? Well, there goes that. Do you want to go first? You want me to go first. Yeah, you go first. Okay. Okay. All right. I've never, by the way, been more nervous for any performance than I am for this one. For right now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. This has got me really riled up.

This is pride. This is two of the greatest sitcoms in American history going toe to toe. Yeah. Head to head. Yeah. And the stakes are real. I know. It's too real.

Did you see the Olympics? Did you see the hockey game? Like all that stuff? I didn't see the hockey game. I watched a lot of Olympics. All right. Yeah. I mean, it's high stakes.

Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Okay. It's really the future of television and the past. In the past. Yeah. Okay.

Here we go. So I'm Spencer, the AI programmer, and I'm entering the scene. There's an act off, Rain Wilson versus Josh Radner. Here we go. It's all coming together. There goes that. And scene. Bravo.

Okay. Bravo. Here's the lines. Yeah. I jotted them down right there in the pencil. And these are the only three lines were allowed to say. Yep. You're only going to say it was.

three lines. You're going to tell that whole story of the destruction of human race in three lines. Do it however you want. Yeah. Don't have to use anything I did. You have a completely different take on Spencer. How will people know his name is Spencer? We're going to put it in a Chiron at the bottom of the screen. Yeah, it's a little. Yeah, we're going to put in a little name tag. Although my name is Spencer. All right. Whatever you want. Let your, let your actor's imagination Run wild. This is... This is whiskey.

Okay, we're going to put that and a Chiron too. That's whiskey. All right. Whenever you want and you can say action or whatever you want. He's doing drugs. He's doing drugs. That's indicating. That's terrible acting.

He's doing drugs. This is for me backstage. Oh, this is not to be heard. Okay. It's my process. Here we go. Okay, here we go. Spencer, take two, Josh Radner, how I met your mother.

Go. It's all coming together. Killed it. No, I think you won. No, my God, the emotion at the end. You didn't, you didn't comment on it. You really. Yeah?

I believed that you had just destroyed humanity. I don't know. Congratulations. Well done. Thanks. Well played. Well played. Hey, I'll be honest.

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slash soul boom and start taking back a little control of your digital life. You know what I was thinking, Rain? Out of all the showbiz characters I know, I think I might know you the longest, except for, because I met you while I was at NYU because you were directing New Bozina, the clown show. Yeah. So you were on the hallway. I remember you knew my class. I was around.

Yeah. You were around. But that was the mid-90. What year was that? 97? 97, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's quite a long time now.

That's a long time. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I'm trying to remember if I saw any shows at NYU, but if I saw you in any shows. I was in Uncle Vanya. Did you see Levy's Uncle Vanya or Andorra?

Did you see Awaken Singh that we did? No, I didn't. Yeah, I don't think I saw your class in the main stage productions. Yeah. But you know my classmates, Maggie Lacey, Mia Barron, Dion Flynn. Yeah. So many. Yeah.

Yeah. What was your experience like at the NYU grad acting program? You know, I can't imagine having had a career without having done it. It set me up. I feel the same. I will say this. Did you, Cameron Mannheim came in and talked to us in Joanna Merlin's career class. Yeah.

And she gave us, it was one of the most impactful days of my whole time there. Wow. Because she gave us like, this is how you stay sane while being an actor. And they didn't teach us any of that. Cameron taught me that. Yeah. Like they taught me how to get cast in a play and how. and how to show up and rehearse it and perform it.

Yeah. They don't teach you how to be on camera. They don't teach you how to find an agent. They don't teach you. You know, I mean, you get a little. But a lot of the, a lot of stuff that sustained my career, I had to learn as I went. But the biggest thing was honestly, like,

it trained me to know how to be an actor and know what to do with the script, but it didn't tell me how to not lose my mind in unemployment stretches. Yeah. It didn't tell me how to deal with the psychological ups and downs. and the rejection, all that stuff. All that stuff I had to learn on the job.

And I also remember one of her rules was never sleep in past 10 a.m. Cameron. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They were, they were, she had this wildly practical. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that what I really needed to do at NYU was like to learn how to live through humiliation, like Jim Calder's class where you couldn't do anything really right.

Yeah. Like I just had to learn how to live through failure. Yeah. And be like, I'm still okay. Because the first year you think you're still auditioning for the school and every time you get up to perform, they're going to, they might kick you out. Yeah, and you need to impress people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Your classmates, the teachers.

And then you get to a point where you're like, fuck, I don't fucking care. Yeah. But Jim Calder for people who don't know the movement teacher and he does clowning. I studied clowning with him as well as some others, which was very helpful in the creation of Dwight Shrewd, who is essentially just a clown character. But he was famously, you'd get up, he'd be like, okay, do an improv where you're, you're, you know, eating a mango with your feet and you're playing a character eating a mangle. And then you'd finish, he'd be like, nah, didn't quite get it, didn't he? No, he didn't really work. Right. Did it? Wasn't very good, right? Yeah. And he'd turn to people to agree. And the class

would be like, yeah, yeah, it didn't work. Yeah, it's terrible. You know, one thing from Calder's class that I really remember, did you do that status exercise where you get a status one through 10 and a scene and you have to walk in with your status? Yeah. Yeah. And I remember, when I write, I really try to think about status. It's such a good way into a scene and a conflict between a scene. You know, who has the high status and who has the lower status and so stuff like that. But I don't know. I remember a couple things that people said. I remember 10 things I learned at NYU, but the rest of what has really sustained me over the decades was just learning on the job, learning from other actors, learning from directors, you know. Sure. And finding some sort of grit in

myself that I didn't know I had until I had to. There was a spiritual element to the training at NYU that I think Zelda and Ron brought to the school, Paul Walker and a few others of the great teachers, Jim, that was, hey, we're going to train you as an actor, but more than that, like, we're going to, like, mold you as an artist. Totally. You have something to say. Like, you are bringing your heart and your soul, your soul, your soul.

sweat, your experience, your life, your emotions, your pain, your trauma. Yeah. And it's important what you have to say. And how are you going to channel that with your body, with your voice, through the characters that you play and like, fucking go for it. And it was more than just kind of like, here's how to stand on stage and not look foolish and say your lines right and play an intention or something like that. They really wanted you to explode yourself.

and give of yourself. I remember Zelda having this conversation once with us where she talked about shamans. I talked about this in the Soul Boom book that she thought of actors as like shamans. Yeah, totally. Holy mystics. Totally.

Doing something on behalf of humanity that they couldn't do for themselves. Like they couldn't experience these. They needed us. I mean, it made me feel like I was charged with quite a holy mission. Yeah. You know, that I was, that society was depending on artists

to do this very holy thing, you know. And that's why I've always been, I mean, I probably was like this before, but like, you know, I'm very passionate about like arts funding and like having, I really think the health of a culture can be isolated by, like, is there a vibrant artistic culture? Yeah. You know. And but she made me feel and she made all of us feel that the, that there was a holiness and And that society itself needed us to do this.

And it was so funny, I used to talk about, you know, the artist citizen and the holiness. And I forgot that I got all that from Zelda until I went to her memorial. I think were you there at her memorial? I was not. No. Okay. But at her memorial, they showed these old videos of her. Because remember at the beginning of after the lead, after the showings, she would give like

this sermon. Yeah. And it was like, it was a sermon. It was. And it set the tone for the whole year. But she was a rabbi. She was a priest. She was, you know.

And she said all this stuff that I was like, oh, I thought I invented this. Like this is all Zelda. Like I had so metabolized this understanding of like what an artist citizen shaman actor was that I forgot that I got it from like the church of Zelda. And remember. And for those watching, Zelda Fitch Handler founded the arena stage in Washington, D.C., which is one of the first, if not the second, you know, regional theater. She was the grand dom and the American kind of. regional theater movement. She brought over all these great Russian and Romanian directors and Irish directors and really... Like a towering figure in the American theater who ran our program

while we were there. Yeah. So she was, while not a great teacher, she was an incredible inspiration. She really was. People could be listening right now rolling their eyes as like, oh, great, Ted Mosby and Dwight Shrewd are talking about artist shamans. That's just the voice in your head, right? Well, no, there's a few of them out there. And it's okay. But, you know, when you're 22 or 25 years old and you're studying theater, that's the way to train you to be an actor. Because you want to just bring your whole heart and soul and body and sweat to the characters that you play. And it was, you know, for me, so I grew up a member of the Baha'i faith and I was really like so into my faith. when I was young and we kind of thought as Baha'is, oh, we're going to change the world. We're

going to bring people together, unite people and pray and meditate and, you know, have these beautiful teachings from God that are going to revitalize the world. And then I became alienated with my faith, left it for a super long time. But I just replaced it with the church of the theater. And I know you've kind of referenced the same thing where we thought we could make the world better, that we could change people's hearts through storytelling. Tell me about your experience there. Well, I think that I went through a period, I think, in college when I was really like drunk on the theater. Like it was, the way I described it was like in college theater was my mistress. It was like I did it at night. It was kind of off to the side of my main studies. And then when I got to NYU,

theater became my spouse. It was like such a deeper commitment. It was all around the clock, you know. But I think that I needed some sense that I was engaged in a holy, mission or it would have felt too solipsistic or kind of inward focused. I needed to feel that I was doing something generous that wasn't just for myself. I used to go into empty theaters like they were cathedrals. I just love like an empty theater and the ghosts of all the performances that have been in there. Really, I find it very moving still to be in a sacred space.

Absolutely. The number of stories, the number of tears that have been shed. Yeah. The shared experience of the audience and the magic, the ephemeral nature of it, that it's gone. Yeah. And then you have to recreate it every night. I still love it very much. But I think I, it was somewhere around the first couple seasons of how I made your mother.

I think I realized that the theater or acting itself, the shoulders of it were not big enough for me to support what I was really longing for, which was like something very. big. Like, like, even though I think theater has holiness and sacredness in it, it's still humans making human things. And I think I was just longing for something bigger. But finding something bigger allowed me to continue doing it without thinking that it was going to be like my salvation or other people's salvation. Does that make sense? Like, I needed, I needed to broaden my palette of what I felt like I was doing here on the world on the earth. And I still feel that actually, acting wouldn't be just enough, you know. I mean, maybe if I was just going from like unbelievable role to unbelievable role,

you know, like just felt you really used up by it. Like you get a DiCaprio kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think you could probably make a case for that. He probably feels like spiritually filled up by his, I don't want to speak for him, you know. You should try podcasting. Add that to here. Well, I was thinking on the way over here that I knew, I know that we have a similar taste for depth and going to these spaces.

And I've actually been trying to get clear about like, what do I really love? Like, what is my favorite thing to do? And, you know, I made this movie of liberal arts because I felt we set it at my college. And I think there was something about the academic life, which I would define more broadly, like not just academic, but like a theological life or a philosophical life. Like, I just love deep questions. I love plumbing the depth of like why we're here, you know. Did some of that come from your Jewish upbringing? I think so because I know like diving into big metaphysical and philosophical questions is center to the Jewish identity, especially from an educational standpoint.

Yeah, I think sometimes at least the Judaism that I was brought up with can get a little wonky and legalistic and a little more. It's granular, but sometimes I feel like it misses the forest for the trees. Like it, you know, there is plenty in Judaism where you can do that. But the kind of Judaism that I was brought up with was, I'd say, akin to like a Catholic upbringing where it's like it's kind of the broad strokes. Okay. But, you know, and I had a pretty rigorous Jewish upbringing. But the Judaism that I've discovered as an adult and the other religions I've discovered as adult plumb those depths deeper than I went as a kid. But I think, yes, you know, the notion of always questioning things and going deeper and there's a layer beneath the layer beneath the layer.

I actually heard Tony Kushner, I heard him years ago, said a great thing that he thinks that so many, he was asked why so many Jews are attracted to the theater. And he said, I think what Jews historically have been trained to do by studying the Torah and studying in Talmud is to look at the surface words, what they're saying and dig underneath the words, underneath the words, underneath the words. He said, it's the same thing you do in the theater. You look at the text and then you plumb what's underneath it, what's really going on, what's unsaid. And I think I've always married the two kind of traditions in that way in my mind. Like it's a depth kind of exploration underneath the surface. And that's the stuff I've been. But I'm really like, I can't get enough of like, you know, brilliant, you know, quotes from philosophy, psychology, theology.

Like, I really like having these conversations because I feel there's so much in the world that's dragging us to the surface of things and making. and only having us look at the surface of things, the surface of who we are, making snap judgments about people and groups and all these things. We paint with really broad brushes. And I feel like I really, I don't want to be reduced to a stereotype, you know?

So I try not to do it to other people. And just honoring my own dimensionality and complexity and also trying to extend that courtesy to other people. Yeah. You know? You were talking about kind of expanding your, your palette or your tools beyond acting. You've directed a bunch of films. Now you're a singer-songwriter on the side. Poet, meditator, writer. I think we have such parallel stories. Yeah, yeah. Training in the

theater. Yeah. Going to television. Yeah. Having some success there and film as well. And then, you know, I'm podcasting, you're writing. I always will love acting. I'm always going to do it. theater, film, TV, it's great. I love it. But it's not quite enough for me to express what Zelda kind of inspired as part of that journey. So talk to me a little bit about what you've been discovering, especially since how I met your mother.

I just remembered also, I did the Guthrie experience in between my second and third year, and you were there that summer doing importance of being earnest, right? Oh, yeah. So we were in Minneapolis that summer together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. What was your question? I mean, like about finding more tools and a broader palette beyond just acting.

Well, Pam Fryman, who directed almost every episode of How I Make Your Mother, who's a dear friend and a mentor. And she pulled me aside early in the first season. And she said, we've got merch. Soul Boom fam. I'm so excited. Our first merch drop is officially here. go to soulboom.com slash store. You can get totes, tanks, teas, hoodies, beanies, mugs, water bottles, sippies, a handy dandy journal.

It's all supporting the cause, support the boom. Shop now at soulboom.com slash store. You're not going to get everything you want from this show, artistically, creatively, spiritually. You're going to have to do other things. I don't know why. I don't know if she pulled the other cast members aside and said that. She sensed, I think, something in me.

That's what I told myself, I'll ask her. But she really charged me with doing more. So I always was writing and always knew that writing was lit me up in the same way as acting. I do know that, I don't know how much reading you've done on like the kind of Jungian idea of like the first half of life and the second half of life. Not so much. Yeah, like Richard Rohr talks a lot about this, who's a Franciscan priest that I know and love dearly. and James Hollis. It's this idea that the first half of your life, Richard Roar, calls it the loyal soldier.

And he said, you're trying to gather the kind of ego reinforcements. You know, you want the good-looking person on your arm, and you want the visible signs of success. Status. You want people to know you're a serious person on the earth, and you're to be taken seriously, and you're to be honored and, you know, all these things. And then right around, you know, maybe 35. It's different for everyone, but like you start to realize that that's not quite enough and that there has to be some other driving force. So you get a little quieter, you get a little more self-reflective, you start turning your attention more towards service.

You don't want to shout as much about things. You want to become more broad-minded, community-minded. And so I have found, you know, I'm in my second half of life now. I'm 51 now. So, and I just had a kid four months ago. Congratulations. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. We had a son and I got married two years ago. And I'm doing these things on a slightly different schedule than everyone else, you know.

But I can really feel, and there's no set timeline for when this stuff happens. But I wonder, and this is maybe a question for you, I think sometimes getting everything you want. It's a, my wife quotes this thing. sometimes you get to the top of the wall and realize the ladder was, you get to the top and realize the ladder was perched against the wrong wall. Oh, nice. You know? Yeah.

And there, I think that we were both on shows that became really iconic, really ran a long time to some people kind of froze us as a certain person or archetype. And I found that experience to be both liberating and imprisoning in equal measure. And some of this, I think, would have happened had I not. in on that show. But I think because of that, I had this urge to just bust out in different ways and explore different things and different, you know, notes on the keyboard. I didn't want to keep playing this small thing. And acting to me just started to feel, and I still struggle with it because it's not, I don't have the thing of like, I haven't acted in a while. I got to

act. I must act. I don't have it. I, you know, I love it when it comes. I'm doing a play in London this summer. I'm super excited about it, you know. But I don't have a thing where I don't feel complete and whole in myself unless I'm acting. Yeah, which you did when you were 29. I did. 100%. Yeah. I was the same way. Yeah. And if I wasn't working, if I wasn't getting cast, my self-esteem was a gutter in the tank. And what's wrong with me. And I got envious, competitive with other actors. Yes. But that's all loyal soldier. And that was a wrong wall. Well, it was the right wall for that time in your life. Like, you, you were, you were. You were actually doing the loyal soldier.

Okay. Which is like you were trying to gather the ego reinforcements that made you feel like you were special and, you know, to be honored and applauded. But I think that, I don't know, something has just happened to me where I am, I, I do know that I have a creative kind of pulse in my life that I have to honor on some level every day. Like, I have to be doing something. Even writing down a lyric, I woke up with a song idea this morning, you know, to write down.

It was just a couple of lyrics. Like, that is enough for the day just to say, like, to kind of like tithe the muse. Like to give a tithe and be like, okay, you know, we're still in relationship. I love that Elizabeth Gilbert thing about the genius not being me, but being some exogenous substance outside of myself that I am in relationship to. Which in classical times, the muses were very real. Yeah. They were gods of inspiration. And when you talk to, I've had artists on the show talking about like, how did you write that song?

How did you write that book? It's like, I don't know. Yeah. Just channeled down from somewhere. I've had that experience so many times that I don't even question it or think it's weird anymore. I just think. And, you know, it's like, I don't forget who said it, but like the muse will come, but it has to find you working. You know, you got to be sitting there waiting or with it, you know.

Yeah. You can't just wait for the inspiration. Yeah. You have to show up every day at the typewriter or whatever. And then... Somerset Malm has this great quote where it was, do you write when you feel inspired or do you write on a schedule? And he said, I only write when I feel inspired. Luckily, I feel inspired every day at 9 a.m. at my desk, you know?

So, yeah, I just have to honor the... I have to do something creative that feels. It's like exercise. Like I just have to do something every day. And how does that connect to your beliefs about what a spiritual journey is? I'm always interested in that parallel paths between creativity, imagination, expression, emotion, and the search for the transcendent of looking for meaning, longing, something beyond just the mere material experience of eating.

shitting and fucking and how those kind of the search for, you know, sounding, you know, pretentious as hell, but for truth and beauty and meaning. Yeah. Do you see those as parallel or the same or different? I don't see those as pretentious. Okay. Because I think that, like, I have this theory that there's no such thing as atheism. Okay.

Like, I think that if you don't believe in a God or God, it's like, what is your obsessive? What is the thing you worship? What do you worship? What do you worship? What do you put front and center above yourself? Yes. And I think that's a god. Like I think that like tech is a god.

Any addiction you have is a god. That's why in 12 step it's like, well, let's get you away from that false god and let's get you in something more truthful so you can heal. Materialism. Pursuit of status. Worship of nation. Yeah. Worship. Even worship of your religion.

People, their church becomes their. God, you know, like, which isn't necessarily God. Something I want to get to with how I met your mother is culturally how romance has become this God. A hundred percent. Finding the soulmate. Yeah. Well, there's a like Robert Johnson is a Jungian therapist who has a book called We.

And he said that when the enlightenment happened and when the whole notion of God or a God ordered or centered universe happened, our need to transcend and worship didn't go anywhere. It just, we didn't put it towards capital G God or whatever. We started worshipping other. We started, it became, you know, you find all that now in your partner, which has been pretty grievous for relationships to try to. You could say it started with Romeo and Juliet. Totally.

But I think that, you know, to get back to your early question, like, I believe in, I believe in Dharma, right? Like the classical idea of like a sacred duty on earth. How do you explain Dharma? Yeah, it would be like your sacred calling or kind of like what you're predisposed to do or be drawn to and how you express yourself on the earth. And it can manifest in many different ways, obviously. But I do, this does sometimes sound pretentious to me. So I want to say this in quotes.

But like I do sometimes synthesize what I do as storytelling because it's like I love stories. I loved hearing stories when I was kid. I loved classical mythology. I obviously was attracted to the theater, participating in stories. I now find myself less like I like to be the conductor and the composer rather than the violinist. Like I think of acting as like you're playing in the orchestra. Or the bassoonist. I was a bassoonist.

Oh, you were bassoonist. Yes, yes, yes. And something else is happening to me where I find I'm more interested in my own words and creations these days than in. someone else's. Yeah. Even if they have, if I believe in someone else's vision, I want to support it and I do, and I do it. But there's something about I've lived long enough. I think I had, I've had enough setback and failure and struggle that I actually feel like

I have some wisdom now and I have some scars. I can write from those now. Whereas when I was younger, I don't think I was dinged up enough. So I needed like David Mamet's words more than I do now. Does that make sense? Yeah, that totally makes sense. Yeah. Yeah.

What are you writing these days? More film scripts or what? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've got a play that I'm working on. Is there a role in it for me? No. Fuck.

No, no, no, no. Get out. That was my entire reason for bringing you here. I even had an act off with you. Wait, I haven't talked about the movies yet. Okay. I have various scripts in various forms of completion. I've been working with.

But your films were great. Oh, thank you more, please. And liberal arts, I thought they were just very mature and it didn't look like an actor doing a film. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah. Those were great. I've been working with this wonderful journalist named Jennifer Sr.

who writes for The Atlantic. She won a Pulitzer Prize for this story about a 26-year-old who died in the North Tower of 9-11 and how his family grieved in these different ways. And so we've been co-writing this script for me to direct. We've been adapting it. And that's been like a great joy of my life, working with her on this. And just exploring the kind of the constellation of grief and how kaleidoscopic and strange and how everyone deals with something differently.

You had a great substack going for a while and then you stopped it. I was really enjoying it. I had a kid. Oh, well, that'll do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you going to get back to your substack? I thought it was really. Yeah.

Really smart. Yeah. I was writing them for years. It called Musletters. And I went over to Substack, I don't know, over a year ago. And I did. I wrote like one or two on Substack and then just went a little silent. But it was because I had a kid.

I've got one kind of queued up. So I'm going to restart that. Okay. I find prose to be the hardest thing to write. I love writing dialogue and I love writing because I improv in my head, you know. We talked a little bit about people worshiping romance and contemporary Western society. Now, what role do you think, I'm going to push a little bit here on how I met your mother, because there's some kind of like fucked up ideas about romance in that show,

waiting for the one, right? And like, how dating works and how men treat women, you know, Neil Patrick Harris's character and stuff like that. I don't mean to denigrate the shows. It was a great show. And that was... What about the office being so racist, Rain? It was racist. But how have you, how has that challenge been to kind of look at, because you've spoken about it before, about the challenges of how I met your mother and how it relates to contemporary American Western civilization ideas about dating intimacy and romance? Yeah. For me, there was a tricky thing where I struggled with relationships for years. And I had the opposite problem as Ted.

he was falling in love on the first date and wanting to get married to everyone. I was the opposite. I was like, I was always coming up with reasons I couldn't be with people. So it was confusing because it created some internal dissonance. You were a little more of a Barney? No. I was more, I just ran a voidant. Oh, okay.

You know? I mean, I had my nights, whatever. But I was more, there was a part of me that would like want to be with someone. And then I was constantly like, I would panic and I would freak out and I would need to get away. Thanks for sharing that. That's bold and brave to share that. I've done a lot of work on it. Okay.

You know, I did a lot of work on it. And I've made amends to people, you know, that I think I was like, I don't think I was the easiest person to date just because I was one foot in one foot out. You know, and I always felt like I needed to keep my eyes on the exit sign. Something about it was really scary for me. But then I was playing this character who was not that, who was all in. All in, you know. But also in a somewhat could be psychotic way. Like he was also looking to save himself, you know, through that.

The ultimate kind of codependent. Totally. You complete me from Jerry McGuire, which is the most. And there are a lot of garbage messages we get from Hollywood pop songs. You know, it's all about, yeah, the you complete me is like, I love that movie, but it's one of the more damaging lines in Western society. Yeah, in culture.

No one completes anyone. No, and if you do, you're going to, anyone you make into a god will become a demon, you know, you're going to have to punish them. You heard it here. When you realize that they're not the God you made them into. So the writers of how I met your mother were not Barneys. They were kind of writing a parody of like hyper-masculinity.

And Neil played it. And that's what redeems Barney so much, is like he becomes a clown. Yeah. He's poking fun. They also punish him with some regularity. Like we realize when we're actually locating it in the first two seasons, like when Barney needed like a come up in this episode.

Yeah. And he gets it. And so you, so you, they're never signing off on the worldview exactly. But I think Neil played him with like such panash and such like seductive kind of, this quality that confused people. because he didn't play him exactly as a buffoon or even when we called him a buffoon, he couldn't hear us.

Like he was so in his own drama. But I think, you know, in sitcom world, you paint a little more broadly, you paint with a broad brush, even though I think the show allowed us to do some really delicate, subtle things that you don't often get to do on a sitcom. But I feel there's some atoning

that I've tried to do both personally and artistically, where I try to make things that are, how do I say this? Like, that just, that don't put that forward, you know, like, because I struggled so much and because I had to dethrone romance and all this stuff from my own life and not have it be my salvation because it was so complicated for me. And it's complicated to have carried the torch of that for so long. But I'm, I'm, you know, I, it's almost like first half of life, second half of life. Like, that was a first half of life job for me. Yeah. And now I'm trying to make things that are just reflect more of where I'm at. And by the way, I'm really not knocking it. Like, it was a show by and four and about 20 somethings looking for love in the big city. Yeah. And that's in the zeitgeist.

And that's important. And it did it really well. Yeah. And very smartly. When you're in your 20s and 30s and you're looking for a partner, like you are at the mercy of all the cultural messaging you've gotten. And you do. And you do know people who fell in love at a bar across the way. And you do feel like maybe tonight will be the night I'll really meet someone. All of that stuff's really fun and really exciting. And I don't want to take that away from people. Have you talked to anyone about the current dating world? Because I'm now a result. old weird man.

Yeah. But when I talk to young people trying to date right now. It sounds like misery. It is hell. Yeah, yeah, misery. I mean, not just the apps, but the way that people ghost each other and what their expectations are and the lack of intimacy. It's just, it's awful.

Everyone, everyone talks about how awful it is. Do you have any ideas about, can you change the contemporary dating landscape? Yeah, please. Let me. No. I don't think I can. I mean, for me, I realized that, like, I needed help. Like, I needed help.

I needed to talk to the right people to help me figure out why I was so avoiding, why I couldn't get anything to last longer than a year. You know, I was just, there was so much anxiety. And then, I don't know, when I met my wife, I think I had just, I had just gotten well enough to recognize. is that this was like a really good choice. Like this was like a really smart. Because my picker was a little off.

I was, you know. Not your pecker? No, my pecker was fine. Yeah, the picker was, yeah. It's a good vocal warm up. Which is a very common thing. I think people kind of consistently just choosing someone that's unavailable or choosing someone that's not right or choosing someone that's going to explode at a certain point and blow things up.

What was it? My friend Aad Ahtar who wrote this play, Disgrace, that I did him Broadway years ago, but he had another play where it was a Pakistani immigrant father. And he said to this American kid who had fallen in love with his daughter, he said, you Americans, you start your relationships at a full boil. And it has nowhere to go but cool off. And he said, in our culture, we start cold and we heat it up, heat it up, heat it up, heat it up, right? And, you know, my wife and I, certainly there was like heat and attraction.

and all of that. But we met one weekend. And then I was recording an album in Nashville. So I went back to Nashville for two weeks. Then I was in Ohio for two weeks. We didn't see each other for a month. And it was like Victorian letter writing. We just like really had to get to know each other without being face to face.

And I had learned how to pace a relationship appropriately. Like we didn't move in in the first, you know. Like we took our time getting to know each other. And it was really, it proved to be the best scaffolding to build something on. Yeah. I had two friends that when they were dating in Nashville, they were very interested in each other. And they're like, let's slow things down. And let's do service together.

Let's volunteer together to, you know, teach. They work at like a food kitchens and youth groups and teaching and stuff like that. Because like that's where you're really going to get to see someone and know someone. It's like how they say like go camping with someone before you get married. Oh, nice. Like figure out where you're like in the Arctic. Where they're going to go alone. Poop on a log.

Yeah. But I, you know, that's stuff like that is very missing from contemporary. Yeah. And I, and I also think there's a, there's a vacuum that can be filled by art that is a little more. It's hard because art a lot of times, I have this ongoing argument with my dad that is so funny, where my dad watches things and he'll go, why would they screw up their lives so bad? And it's like, so you can have a TV show to watch that. Like you want to watch people just making healthy choices all the time.

Like part of the way you tell stories is watching people start somewhere pretty low and figuring it out as you go. They have to have a journey. Sure. So it's tricky to make art that is healthy. And you don't want to also feel like it's eat your vegetables kind of didactic art. You don't want to be like, I'm teaching you how to be a good person through this art. But I do think there's a space and culture for more. just healthier people kind of figuring it out.

I mean, I don't, like, I had a real journey with this, and I don't, I don't, you know, I still have my stuff, you know, we all do. But I think there, there can be more people owning their shadows a little bit more. Are you, do you write stuff besides, like, books and stuff? You know, I wrote a memoir called the Bassoon King and I wrote the soul boom about spirituality, and we did a Soulroom workbook, and I have another book due next year that is ostensibly about the meaning of life. Yeah.

But in my head, I have a secret kind of like fantasy kind of Harry Potter-ish kind of book I want to do because I grew up such a total like sci-fi nerd. Yeah. But I don't know when, if when I'll find the time. Yeah. But, yeah, so fiction prose, I've written a few screenplays, but I haven't really dabbled in those waters. Yeah. I had a therapist years ago who specialized in highly creative personalities, and he said one of the features of highly creative personalities are starting more things than you can finish.

And I thought I was starting too many things. And he said, start more. Like just keep the ground fertile, you know? Yeah. I always tell people, you know, when they're starting out, they're out of. film school or out of acting school or coming to LA or New York or whatever. I was like, just put tons of irons in the fire. Because you never know what's going to hit and what's not. You know, you start your screenplay here and you have your reading group here and you've got

your improv thing here and your YouTube comedy stuff over here and, you know, your acting career or your directing career or whatever. And a lot of people don't understand that. You never know when lightning is going to strike or how it's going to strike. Yeah. And it's often not the thing you think is going to be the thing. And you just can't put your eggs in one or two baskets. Yeah, I've always had so many projects going at once. It's the same. I read a lot of books at once. I know that drives some people crazy, but I can do that. I just read what I'm in the mood for. But another thing that this therapist told me about creative people is that they say, what if and why not? Like, what if we did this? Or why not? Like, why can't we do that? And I, if you have an idea

for a fantasy series, like, what if? Why not? Why not? Yeah. Yeah. One of the things I've really always admired about you is your willingness to talk about this shit. You've talked about mental health struggles.

You've talked about addiction. You've talked about mysticism. We've talked about ayahuasca trips. Yeah. You've talked about, you know, metaphysical stuff you're reading and exploring, you know, Buddhist and Hindu traditions. And my question is, like, why don't more actors talk about this stuff?

It's a very limited pool. It's like my ambialic. There's a handful of others that will talk about kind of their spiritual journey. And I'm not talking about trying to convert anyone to a certain religion or something like that. But just to share with excitement, enthusiasm, and open-heartedness, this other aspect of being a human being. Yeah. Do you think that actors are just too, they're afraid what people will think or make, might make them unpopular or certain people aren't going to like what they're saying?

Yeah, I think there's some of that, sure. I mean, actors get bullied when they speak outside their lane. That's very true. They get really bullied culturally by whatever, whoever's doing that. One of the things that pisses me off to no end is Ricky Gervais saying, just take your actor award. No one wants to hear what you have to say. It's like, fuck you. bullshit.

Guess what? Everyone gets to say what they want to say about anything. Gaza, climate change, politics, you get to say it. If you're a truck driver, you get to say it. Yeah. If you're a school teacher and you're winning an award. And it's, we have free speech. And, you know, if people don't want to hear it, they don't have to give you an award.

And he's never put any limits on his speech. No, no. And like, yeah, is it going to change, you know, war or climate change with you saying something for 75 seconds after you win a golden globe? Like, no. But why would you try and shame and silence someone from speaking their truth? I mean, it shouldn't just be for the sake of it. Hopefully what you're saying is well researched.

And hopefully you're doing something about that cause that you want to speak to. And it's not just kind of like, what is it? What do they call that? Mood signaling. No, what's it? Virtue signaling or something like that. But I think that's utter bullshit. And I think everyone, from janitor to act, you do not need to be an academic.

You don't need to have a PhD. You don't need to be a politician or an expert to speak out on what moves you. And I also heard this thing, you know, if a light is shining on you, it's your responsibility to move close to where other things need light shown. You know, like you actually move your light over there so they can get, we can all also see this, you know. I think that to your point about actors, like, I, I know very few actors who had careers as long as we've had, like now decades long of, of like primarily doing this, that don't develop some sort of mystical detachment from the, because it's so unpredictable and

weird. And the roles you think you're for sure getting, you don't get, the roles you never thought you were getting, you get. And you have to have, eventually you have to go, the roles that are meant for me are coming. The roles that aren't meant for me will not be mine. Like there has to be some, what's the word I'm looking for? Like there's some, yeah, like some spiritual detachment around. And perspective. And perspective where it's like it's so unpredictable.

You can't game it. You can't control it. You can't game it. I always think about that with Bill Camp. You know Bill Camp? Oh, yeah. So he came out of Juilliard same time I came out at NYU. He was this handsome man.

I remember. He was a brilliant actor. I saw him play Henry 5. Everyone was like, oh, he's going to be this big star. And he couldn't get arrested. He did some theater for 10, 15, 20 years. And then all of a sudden, as an older character guy, now he's in everything. Queens Gambit.

He was so good in Queens Gambit. He's killing it. I mean, but I never thought that Bill Camp would kill it as an older character guy. Well, it's also, I mean, another Juilliard guy who had just talked to on the way over here. one of my dearest friends, Michael Churness, who when he got out of Juilliard, he was trying to be like a Juilliard leading man, like he was trained. And then he just put on weight and grew out a beard and looked like a trucker who also had a Juilliard education. And he's never stopped working, you know. So you just never know. I guess I'm venting a little bit because I wish that

actors would speak out, would dare to speak out a little bit more. One of the reasons we have on, I talked to my producer, Kartek all the time about we have so many stand-up comics on the show because stand-ups, they'll talk about everything. They'll be like, I was drunk in a ditch and a sex addict, and then I had a nervous breakdown, and I did this comedy special, and I hate my mother. And, you know, like, they'll just spill it all out. Well, that's the, because they're using that stuff. Of their realm.

Of their trade. Whereas I think actors, especially actors who don't generate their own material, I think they can, unless they have like a sense of a deep sense of themselves. Like they're like, well, no, these were Tom Stoppard's lines. You know, he wrote these lines. Or I think there might be some insecurity about like I am a vessel through which something comes rather than generating it myself. Yeah. Which is not to say.

That's not denigrating any actors. Like I think that's wholly work like we said. But I think it can be scary like to say what you believe in this. you know, especially when so many things online are not given a good faith reading. And you, you know, sometimes you, I noticed this a lot with, like, John Mayer was always getting quoted as like, I can't believe he said that. And I would be like, I can't believe he said that. And then I'd read the whole thing in context. And I'd be like, yeah, that's not quite what he meant.

Like, if you take things in context, you actually spend some time with them beyond the headline. Sure. You see that, you know, and we're all putting our foots in our mouths every once in a while. Like if you're going to talk a lot, you're going to say that. But it's clickbait headlines. I recently had a thing where I spoke about some office episodes that couldn't get made today. And the headlines where Rain Wilson, the office is racist. Right, right, right, right, right.

It's like there were a few moderately racist elements to a few episodes that probably wouldn't fly today was the conversation. Yeah. Which is absolutely true. Yeah. And, but guess what the clickbait is? But our culture, it doesn't do nuance. And that's where you see it's just being, clicks equal money, right? Like, did, did, did, do.

So they're going to spin it in the most inflammatory kind of reptile brain kind of hooking way. And it's a shame because I would love to live in a society that was just a little more nuanced and a little more subtle. What is your meditation practice like and what is your spiritual discipline? I mean, right now it's maybe once a week. Yeah, maybe once a week my wife, the baby goes down and we say, let's meditate for 15 minutes. Six months ago. Still bad. Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I learned TM when I was, I think, 27. And I was a very devoted twice daily meditator for many, many years. And then it became once I let the afternoon one go. And, you know, it happens. Like, it kind of degrades. I did last year, or I did a vipasana, like 10-day. Have you ever done one of those?

No, silent meditation retreat. I found it to be one of the hardest things I've ever done, truly. Oh, God, I can't even imagine. It was so difficult. But they don't want you to even have books or journals or anything like that. Nothing. I don't know that I could do that. I think I could keep quiet, but I would need to read at night or journal or something.

They had instructions for how to love. like clean the room when you leave. I studied it like it was the Talmud. Like I just kept looking at it and reading it. I just looked at it over and over. I also, I think one of the reasons it was really hard for me was I realized like I ground myself by being relational. Like one of the hardest things was like in the dining area. Like I found it really hard not to say good morning or I found it really hard to if you accidentally cut someone off in line to say, oh, no, no, sorry, you go ahead. You know, like the basics of like polite kind of societal interactions.

And I, it made me feel almost like when people were looking down and not looking at me. My body felt people were mad at me. Like, it was really strange. Like, I was like, I'm in a hostile environment right now. But everyone was just silent, you know? And I really, I realized I depend on people like speaking and looking me in the eye to ground myself in the world. So I found it to be very difficult. That reminds me of this show that my wife and I have become obsessed with called Alone.

Have you seen it? So it was on the History Channel. They moved it to Netflix. It's one of those Survivor Man kind of shows. Ten people, they're given 10 items, and they're put in a really extreme environment. This season 11 was the Arctic Circle. You've got the longest one to survive on their own hunting and building shelters and stuff like that wins half a million. And I had no, it's fascinating, but it's also really dark.

Yeah. They call it alone for a reason because humans are not meant to be alone for weeks and months at a time. Yeah. And these people start just losing their shit. Yeah. You see it in their eyes. They start to go mad.

Yeah. They start to cry. They miss their family so much like they, they would rather, this guy was on the brink of winning half a million dollars. He was like, I just need to see my wife and kids. Yeah. And they all talk about it. about that. Like, I need to be in relation with someone. Yeah. And it's actually a moving and

devastating show really about that captures human nature. First of all, you can't believe how many fish and rabbits and pheasants these guys are killing with their bare hands and their bows and arrows and stuff. That's not my Dharma, whatever that is, I feel is not my sacred duty on the earth. But also, it reminds me of Into the Wild, you know, that thing he's scratched into the table or like happiness only real when shared. Do you remember that always haunted me, you know, that we... And say EM Forster, only connect. Only connect, exactly.

That's where we thrive. Yeah. There's the grant study out of Harvard University where they studied like hundreds of people over like 80 years, like what makes humans kind of thrive. Yeah, yeah, I know this study. Yeah. And it really just boiled down to human connection. And don't be an alcoholic.

It was one of their big things. Like the people who seriously drank ended up like with much more wrecked kind of like, lives. I find one of the... Because it's a fake connection. It's not a real connection. Yeah. Well, it's spirit, it's spirit, right? Like it's spirit, they call it spirits. That's also like a false god. It's like you get enslaved by this deity that's like hard and scary, you know. I've, I've experienced that to a degree. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't drink was a big kind of spiritual shift in my life. I don't, I alter my consciousness in other ways. I'm not like a sober fully person, but like not drinking has been huge for me.

I want to talk about connection though that being married, like I didn't realize one of the true pleasures for me of being married was this feeling of sharing a life with someone and just someone that I adore, kind of just going through life together. Like I did, you know, I had girlfriends throughout how I made your mother, but I was largely single. And I think to be doing that at the level I was doing it and not really have a super rooted partner in that.

It was really hard. I've actually gone back and had some like almost like reverse sympathy for myself. Like you did a pretty good job going through this without a person to come home to at the end of the night. You know? And I think that marriage and relationships is a spiritual practice, you know, sharing a life with someone. Yeah. And learning how to not take things personally, learning how to resolve conflict, how to, you know, rupture and repair. how to trust someone very deeply.

I'm finding it to be a great teacher. Like marriage and being a father, even for these four months, has just taught me an enormous amount. Yeah, talk about being a new dad at 51. Yeah. What has that experience been like? What did?

I would say I got, I really mostly like enjoyed the pregnancy, Probably more than my wife. But I found, I love anticipation. Like I love like things on the horizon. So I felt like, oh my God, this thing is. That almost sounds like a Dwight Shrewd quote. I love anticipation.

I love things on the horizon. Big fan of the anticipation. Yeah. But there was something about the promise of it that was really wonderful and exciting to share. But I had, you don't know until it's there. And the first month, I would say, I was a bit of a like, you, euphoric robot of like cleaning breast pump parts and hydrating my wife and changing diapers and I was just in it and then in month two I got hit with this fear slash despair where I realized that this was not a vacation that my old life was done

and this was my new life and I and I I get claustrophobic you know I like really get claustrophobic and yeah and I started to feel like And it only lasted about four weeks, I would say. And then something shifted where I just got back into the flow of the river of all of it. And I felt, then once he started smiling, it just changed everything. Like, I was just like, oh, I will, I'll do anything for this being, you know. And now he's laughing and relational and knows us. And I sing songs to him. Yeah.

And he- Those first three months, they're kind of just a little lump. They just kind of shit and puke and cry. And people told me, you know, get past the first three months. But I really, once they were through, I felt the clouds apart. And I was so grateful. As soon as they, again, connection. As soon as like their eyes go to you, like, oh, that guy.

Yes. Yeah. You're like, oh, we had a thing. Yeah. And then the comedy comes in. You make them laugh in various ways. My kid is, you need fresh material every day. He won't laugh at yesterday's jokes.

You know, he's very like... You can't do the same old peekaboo behind the dishcloths. I had a bit going where like Middle Eastern and Mediterranean foods would make him laugh. I'd say, Baba ganouche, Halumi, humus, falafel. And now he's like... No, he doesn't care. He doesn't care. I got to come up with new stuff every day.

One of those comedy writers from how I met your mother to write some of those material. I should hire some of those guys. Part of the reason I think I got married so late was I really wanted... to live every story. I didn't want to choose one story. I wanted every romance with everyone I was attracted to. I was trying to maximize my, it was really an addiction to novelty, you know, but I realized life was moving by and I, and I wasn't probably maybe going to do this one very big thing, which is be with one person and have a family. And breed. And breed. And breed. And I used to kind of roll my eyes at people who were like, marriage and children is the great.

You know, I used to be like, shut up. So was being on Broadway. You know, that's great too. You know, but then now that I'm doing it, I'm so glad that I'm touching this space of being human, you know? And I think there are many ways to be human. You don't have to breed and have even a long-term partner. But for me, it's proven at this point in my life to be like so good, so nourishing.

Yeah, yeah. Let's switch gears a little bit. Again, going to our parallel stories, here we are having played these characters that in so many ways have defined us, even though, and one thing I get a little frustrated with is like, since playing Dwight, I've been a series regular on two TV shows that no one watched and a whole bunch of movies and, you know, dramatic roles and stuff like that. But nonetheless, and I know you've done the same thing, we are kind of centered on this character. And you've had some interesting quotes where you've talked about, and I really responded to this. You said that you said a quote about people see me as Ted and then they think they know me. Yeah. They think that's me.

And I know for me, people get very disappointed when I'm not like Dwight. Yeah. If I'm talking about spirituality or mental health or politics or climate change or just being different than Dwight, there's a dissonance there for a lot of fans. But recently you did a viewing listening podcast, how I made your mother. We're still doing it. Oh, you're still doing it. What season are you on? We just finished season two.

Oh, okay. And also Jenna and Angela came on board as producers. Oh, nice. The office ladies are producing us now. Oh, that's great. Yeah, yeah. They're the best. Oh, so great.

You've struggled with this identity. You've spoken about it a lot. You have not only fame, but then fame for this one role. Yeah. And now you're kind of coming around with a kind of a different appreciation for Ted and your experience. I'd love to hear your path. Well, again, it's kind of connected to my wife, Jordana, who, when I met her, she'd never seen the show, which was a great help in our, in our, like, courtship. Because, you know, it could be hard when someone is a fan and they think they're with that person

or some version of that person. But she had never seen the show. And then a while back, she said, you know, I'd really love to see it. I'd love to watch the show. This is a huge chapter of your life. I really don't know. I wasn't there. I want to know what it was like.

And I'd love to just watch the show. And then I called Craig Thomas, who co-created the show, who's a dear friend. And I said, look, I'm going to rewatch how I make. your mother, but do you want to do something more formal where it's, we're almost as old as the narrator character, like it's a nice time to look back. And so we're the Bob Saggett now. Yeah, yeah. So we immediately, it was very quick and we just started doing it. It's been really wonderful. And it's been, I did not know that it was going to be incredibly healing for me. Because, you know, I think the first draft of all history is just it's, it's, it's, it's, the, the ink is not

dry yet and it's still, I had, I was very hard on myself around the show. I knew sometimes I felt really like, oh, I'm really doing something great here. But a lot of times I felt like, you know, I was playing the vulnerable virtuous center. And sometimes it's hard to hold that when all this hilarity is happening around you. Right. And I actually talked to Mike Schur about this because he wrote this unbelievable piece when Harold Ramos died about how there's no Bill Murray without Harold Ramos and the importance of like the leading man, you know, what Adam Scott was doing and John Krasinski and me and, you know, that it's actually, I find it really hard. I've played, you know, the weirdos, and I find it so much easier because it's like,

it's just there. Whereas sometimes like to be the reactive one or the audience surrogate, it's very difficult. And I had to do it for nine years. And I think I got very good at it. But I also was, I was very hard on myself. And then I'm watching this show in just the first two seasons. And I'm like, wow. Like as if it's not me, but it's almost like a younger brother.

I'm like talking to this younger version of myself. Like, you did a great job. Yeah. Like you did a great job. And you did a really good job in a really hard environment and a hard role. And I'm delighted. I think the show is really good. and really funny and really charming.

And I understand why people are still watching it and discovering it. Did you find it kind of healing like a new level of compassion for young Josh Wadner? A hundred percent. Like you were the older brother putting your arm around his shoulders and saying, you got this. You know, I got you. That's exactly what. Hey, you know.

This felt like. Yeah. And knowing that I am, that I was a part of something. It's hard to know. I don't know if you had this experience. I mean, you guys were winning Emmys and all that, but like, it's hard to know that you're, when you're in this. We won the Emmy. You won Emmy.

You won Emmy. Yeah. But it's hard to know when you're in the thing, how big the thing is. And sometimes I think both of our shows have aged really well in terms of generations after the viewing audience have found them. There's other comedy shows that just kind of disappear. Yeah. They just don't age particularly well. And they were getting a lot more publicity than both our shows at the time.

And they were more talked about than our shows at the time. But for some reason, both our shows have had legs. And one of the things we do that, you know, you got in trouble for is we own what didn't age well. You know, that's part of the show. Yeah. I do feel like I look back now and I, I just, my wife and I just started watching the Paul McCartney doc about wings called Man on the Run. Okay. That's on Amazon Prime.

Yeah. We're only about 45 minutes into it, but it's fantastic. And not to say that me and Paul McCartney are the same. I just want to be clear about this. But he did come from a very iconic for some. You know, we had five. And he had to figure out what to do with the rest of his life. He was 27 when he got out of the Beatles.

And I just really admire his ability to just keep going and keep trying things. And he was, you know, his first record and then Wings was, I mean, they were selling out stadiums, but he was really mocked and derided. And John Lennon and all these music journalists were saying, like, John Lennon was the true genius of the Beatles. And Paul McCartney was this lightweight, you know, beautiful songwriter. And he just kept going and he just kept making things. And I realized when I got off the show, like, okay, I just have to keep making things.

You know, you really have that moment of like something I might not do anything as popular as this. This might be the thing that is the most popular. But I got years left. That's why I would always get mad at people when they're like, you know, your name is dead. Or like the almost violent thing of like, and it's like, do you want me to retire? Like, what am I supposed to do with the rest of my life? Yeah. I'm a creative being.

So, but the experience of rewatching the show with my wife who, you know, she's a clinical psychologist and she has such great insight. She's actually was a part of the show. You know, she would ask these wonderful questions and have observations. And there has been something incredibly healing and beautiful about it. And I, she's pointed out that when How I Met Your Mother fans come up and want to talk to me, since I've been doing the show, she said, you're just a lot warmer and more open to them. Because I was always like a little suspicious when How I Met Your Mother fans would come up. I was always like, I don't know how to, I don't know the episode you're talking about. It was 15 years ago.

I trust that you're right. You know the show better than I do, you know. And I don't, it's probably, I don't want to speak for you, but I don't wake up and think about how I met your mother. I'll go months without thinking of the show. It's only when people come at me with it that I remember I was on the show. But it's given me a new appreciation for that I was a really a huge part of something that has been really meaningful to people.

Yeah. And not everyone gets that. Not every actor gets that. No, and that's the thing I relate to. You know, I get frustrated sometimes when people call me Dwight or I'll do something online and they'll be like, hey, Dwight. Yeah. And to stop and turn my heart toward compassion for this young fan who has watched all the episodes

or watched them 27 times or what have you. Yeah. And that probably the characters in the office met a great deal. to them. Yeah. And that's, and that is, that is also a rare thing that a show can not just kind of like entertain and get a few laughs, but that the characters become kind of almost part of their family. And I realized like, oh, people, they love Dwight Shrewd. They're, they're connected to Dwight Shrewd. And I need to just honor and respect that. Yeah. I did the same thing when I was a kid. Of course. I would watch taxi or mash or cheers. And I loved those characters.

So much. I wanted to hug them. I remember I was at the Carnegie Deli with my family. I must have been 10 or 11 years old. We went to New York. We're from Ohio. Okay. From Columbus. We're in Carnegie Deli. And I see two men walk in that I know. And I'm like, how do I know them? And it was two of the students from head of the class. You remember the Howard Hesman show? I remember the name of the show. I don't remember watching it. It was a show I watched, like after school, like a sitcom. And I realized it was these two actors, and I lost my mind. I couldn't move. Like, I lost power of movement. Yeah. And my parents had to kind of jostle me back to and I couldn't speak. And I try to remember that, like, that people sometimes lose their mind when they see you

or they know you. They have, the other thing that I find so beautiful is when people tell you, I'm sure you've heard this. I talked to Jesse Tyler Ferguson about this too, when people say I was going through a divorce. Yeah. My, you know, my sibling passed away. Yeah. I was sick. Your show was the only show that my father and I could laugh at together.

Yeah. And it helped our relationship. Like, you realize that there are all these interpersonal dynamics happening around that television set. Yeah. That your, Rob Delaney wrote about this when his, when his kid was sick, him and his wife in the hospital, watched an episode of How I Made Your Mother because they needed to turn their brains off and laugh. Yeah.

And you think that, going back to Zelda, like that's holy service. You know, it's like where a clown is actually like the healing elements, like Shakespearean. You know, the clown carries the wisdom and helps leer through the dark moment. Lear's fool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I remember Farrell's ice cream parlors. Did you have those in Ohio? It's kind of a chain. And they, it's an old-fashionedy.

They bang the drum and it's like 1890s, one-wheeled bicycle. kind of place. Yeah. And we would always go, that was the special treat place. And there was a signed picture from Alice from the Brady Bunch. Yeah.

Near the cash register of her in that Farrell's. Yeah. And every time I went to Farrells, I would look at Alice from the Brady Bunch and the signed picture was like, she was here. She was here.

Oh my God, she was actually here. And there was a charge to it. Yeah. And I even try to do a thought experiment. where I do that gives me a little more empathy for for people who who do that projection onto me like I'm watching the pit which I love the pit it's great right amazing now I know Noah Wiley's an actor but these other people are largely new to me so like I think of them as emergency room doctors yeah you know what I'm saying like I know they're actors and I know that that I know the process they went through to get those jobs like I'm in the business like I understand it. But there's a part of my brain that is like, no, they're emergency room doctors. And it might take me a moment if I saw them in another role. It might take me a moment to go, okay, they're, they're in this new context, right? It's a strange thing. Like, I, it's, I just try to extend

some compassion to fans because they're really having an experience with you that is very powerful. Yeah. It's important to stay humble in that, in that experience. Yeah. I don't always succeed, especially when someone is coming up with their phone and I'm in the airport. I'm trying to get to a gate. It can be challenging. Yeah. Let me look through and make sure there's something out. I want to see if Kartik has anything.

Have you ever done an ayahuasca? Oh, yeah. He literally, he said ayahuasca. Yeah. How many trips have you done? It's hard for me to pinpoint, but it's around 150. You've done 150? But it was over the course of like 12 years.

So it wasn't, yeah. Well, that's still... Yeah, yeah. No, I was enthusiastic about it. Once the last time you did it. It's been years. Okay. But you did a deep dive.

Yeah, and a lot of it was while I was on how I met your mother. It was in between the second and third season, I went down to Brazil and Columbia and did my first, like, nine that summer. So talk to me. I have mixed feelings about that world and that journey. Yeah, yeah. I'd love to hear your experience. But you've never done it. I've never done it.

Yeah. So I'm an addict and I know it's a different kind of drug. Yeah. I have to be very careful or I would do 150 ayahuasca trips in a short period of time. Well, it is the reason I stopped drinking was because of it. You know, I had an evening in Columbia that was all about my drinking. And I realized there was, it highlighted a really not great pattern. that I had with alcohol and also that there was an invitation to step off that train, you know.

And I did for four years and then I tried to drink like a gentleman again and it didn't work. And then I didn't drink for two more years and then I tried again and then it didn't work. And I think I tried one more time. Yeah. And it didn't work. The spells got smaller and smaller. Yeah. But I haven't had a drink since like 2018, 2018.

Okay. But mystical experiences? Oh, yeah. The divine? Beyond. Yeah. Yeah. Heaven, hell, everything.

You saw heaven and hell. What are they like? Well, they're as varied as here. Okay. You know what I mean? Yeah, I had all sorts of experiences. I mean, I think the biggest takeaway from me, one, I felt it was probably my first feeling of like being unconditionally loved.

Like my first night in Brazil, I feel. felt every cell, every molecule of my body was just saturated in this, like, divine love, a feminine divine love. And I just knew how welcomed I was, all of me, every part of me, you know. There was no part I had to hide. There was no face I had to put on to receive that kind of love. It was just extraordinary. But you had that on trip number one. Yeah. So you needed a 149 more. Well, it's kind of like this. The way I think of this is, let's say you've been looking for a house of worship and you find it, right? And the sermon is so beautiful in the choir. It just makes your hair stand on end and like everything about the people are so kind. And you tell someone

about it and you say, I found this place and you tell them all about it. And say, I'm going next weekend if you want to join me. And they say, well, you already went. Why do you need to go back? Okay. Right. Like one, we have a built-in forgetter. You know, we forget, I forget that I'm loved beyond reason. Sure. So I need things to remind myself of that, both daily and, you know. I love you. Thank you.

I believe you. And then, you know, at some point, I think I was getting messages that were pretty clear that I, I was like, I'm now I'm just having psychedelic experiences. Like, I'm just going back for, you know, I knew what my homework was. But I, but I do think that when I, when I, I, I was. would leave an experience, I had this desire to be kinder to myself and others. I felt like the messages I was getting were 100% aligned with what every great prophet and spiritual teacher says throughout history. But it was nature telling me that, which made me feel like, oh, the earth agrees with Jesus and Buddha. Like they're all saying the same thing, because it's

plants, you know, this natural technology. And I don't know, it left me feeling like I don't want to go to battle with anyone. I was able to forgive certain people that I had real grievances and resentments against. So it brought spiritual connection and healing to you. For sure. For years. For years. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was, and there might have been some psychological addiction to keep going back into that dramatic space. But I met my wife doing psychics. Alex. Like we were at a weekend, not ayahuasca, but another kind of experience. NyQuil? It was a NyQuil. Yeah. Yeah. And drink a bottle of that. Ooh. Yeah. You'll see things. I don't knock you on your ass. Yeah. But I ended up, I wrote a book about it that I sold, that I ended up not publishing because I, I just felt like, you know that thing of like, don't write a spiritual memoir too soon? Like, like, I felt like,

there was a lot of ego in it. And I also, I was like, I'm not just this guy on TV. I do psychedelics in the jungle. Yeah. You know, like I really wanted to like prove something. Yeah. And so I let that go. Yeah.

But I started doing it in 2007 and I was, you know, it was before it really invaded the consciousness. And I, and I was protective of it and thought, oh, people who write about it, they've only done two ceremonies. They don't know what they're talking about. Like, there was a lot of ego wrapped up in it for me. But now I just, I feel really grateful that I, um, I don't know. You end up seeing things that feel biblical. You know, you feel like, oh, I get what the...

What's the most biblical thing you saw? This is going to sound so crazy. I love it. I have this experience where I was on my back. I was on my stomach, actually. And I was literally on my stomach, but in the vision I was on my stomach. And there was this, I think it was an archangel. It was some sort of like big mystical being was standing over me.

And it took a Torah scroll and it unrolled the Torah scroll and it put it on my back. Whoa. And then my heart sent up like a Xerox light. You know like a Xerox machine. Yeah. And it went and it downloaded the scrolls into my heart. And then it took all these like esoteric books, like all these different sacred books. I don't know what they were.

But it just kept putting them on my back. Like you're a copy machine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And my heart would go, and then the archangel pulled down its pants, sat on your back with its buttocks, and had another. But it was incredibly, it was powerful and startling.

That's amazing. Yeah, and I just, I don't know if I carry that information in my heart. I hope I do. Yeah. But it was, it was so beautiful. What an incredible metaphor of drinking in divine wisdom. Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, and, yeah, I,

I've been to all sorts of spaces with it. Sometimes you just, you do a ceremony. You're like, oh, I'm drinking too much coffee. I got a, you know what I mean? Like you get like a real world insight. Yeah. And other times you're like in some sort of astral place. Other times you're in like a serpenty kind of darker realm.

But did you have some bad trips? I never had anything that left me there. Like by the end, I was always resolved. I remember there was one night where I got trapped. in my brain. It was really scary. I was like, it was like my brain was a maze. And I could, everywhere I went was like a locked door or a dead end. And I couldn't get out of my brain. Kind of an OCD experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, oh, this is like psychosis. Like I'm just trapped in the ego. And then I thought about someone that I have a very complicated

relationship with. And I saw them as a young person in their childhood home really scared because they came from like a really hard background and my heart kind of opened to them and I felt this wave of like forgiveness and then I felt myself pulled out of the maze of my brain and I was lifted up into whatever. So I was I was I was pardoned or released because of like forgiving. Wow. Wow. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. And Somewhat recently, you've kind of undertaken a new, I don't want to call it a hobby, it's much more than that, but a professional endeavor as a musician, singer, songwriter, sometimes with Ben Lee, sometimes with yourself.

What prompted that and what has that been like for you? I can't imagine how vulnerable it might be to be at a coffee house or a bar playing a gig or something like that. And they know you from a TV show or something like that. and you're literally singing your heart out. There's nothing more vulnerable. Yeah. Well, Ben Lee and I had been friends for years. You know Ben, right?

I do, yeah. Yeah. And I got him into the ayahuasca world, you know, so we would kind of journey together. And he kept saying we should write a song together. He liked my writing, and he said, I think you'd be a really good songwriter. So we started writing songs together,

and the first song we wrote together was I had a dream of a children's choir singing, and they were singing this beautiful melody that I thought was so beautiful. I crooked it into my phone in the morning. Is this while you were tripping? No, no, no. This is just a regular night's sleep.

And I played it back for him, and I kind of sang it, and he played it on the guitar. And it was a beautiful melody, and it's our first song called Wider Spaces that we wrote together. It was from this dream I had. So I thought, well, Ben will write the music and we'll collaborate on the lyrics,

but it didn't turn out to be that. He said, I want to support you as a musician because he thought I had some songs flowing through me. So he really let me both lead in terms of content and even musically, although he had a great, you know, and steady hand musically. But we wrote, we made two albums together. We toured. I didn't play guitar when we started, but I started playing guitar. So it's now been about a decade. I've been playing guitar, but maybe like 11 or 12 years since I've been writing songs.

But I started writing songs with him, had such a great time doing it. And then now I like put out my own albums and tour. And how often are you recording or writing music? I have a new album that I finished. I recorded it with this guy Alan Tate, who has this band called San Fermin. I don't know if you know this band. They're really great. And they have a recording studio about 10 blocks from my apartment.

So I got to know him. And I would just, I walked with my dog down there. You know, it was while George, my wife was pregnant. and we made this album that I'm trying to figure out how to release it. But I don't know. I could put out more music. It's confusing. I'm sure you deal with some of this, like juggling the multiple careers.

Like there is a part of me that sometimes thinks writing and performing songs is maybe my favorite thing in the world to do. Yeah. Do you perform live often? Yeah. I went on a tour last year to like 15, 16 cities, I think. Oh, great. Played the troubadour in L.A. which was awesome.

Nice. Historic. I know. Yeah. Elton John. The cathedral. Yeah. That was thrilling. Ben and I had played there before.

So I don't know, man. I just really like, I've always loved music. I love, I've always responded. I always, I don't know if you're like this, but like when I see someone do something amazing, I kind of want to look under the hood and see how they did it. My wife just likes being, she doesn't want to know. She's like, no, tell me the story. Like, I don't need to know why that shot is a.

tracking shot. Like she doesn't care. But I'm like, no, no, no, look at, look at how they're doing that. That's why you feel that way, you know. So I, when I hear beautiful songs, I always want to know, how'd they do that? You know, what's the chord, what's the chord progression there? Like, oh, why does that chord do that thing to my heart? Like, I love that. So I admire your tenacity and digging under the hood and trying it yourself. There's a lot of people that would would shy away. I mean, I think that I, um, I got some really, good solid reinforcement, not just from Ben, who was really like a great support and mentor. But some of my early songs without Ben, I played for people that I really respected as

musicians and they really like them and they really encouraged me to keep going. So it wasn't like, there's such a thing of like, oh, the actor who picks up the guitar. I was really worried about that kind of cliche and eye rolls from whatever trolls call us Dwight and Ted, you know. But it just people really turn out for the music. and even if they come there because they know me from TV, I hope they leave feeling like, oh, these are good songs.

I really like these. Oh, that's great. Yeah. Well, I would love it if you would play a song on the Soul Boom podcast. I'll try. If it's not good, don't run it. That's perfect. It's a deal.

Great. It's a deal. Josh, this is so cool. You're going to play something for us. People are going to get to see a whole other side of you. What are you going to sing today? This is a song that I started On my honeymoon

We were in Italy We were on this balcony And it was just a beautiful morning Yeah this is a real like second half of life song It's the title track to my new record It's called This Is It And I was just thinking about You know the

Especially for actors and artists We think like Oh my real life is Down there when I get this When I get this when I'm on the awards stage or when I'm finally this. And I just had this quite spiritual feeling like this might be the best. This might be what life is.

Just being with this person and this beautiful place. And I just kind of meditated on that idea for a while. I started it and it took me a couple months to finish this song. Sometimes they come out fully formed. And other times you just chisel away at them. But this was, yeah, this is called This Is It. Can't wait. Dream big kid

And when you're big kid You'll take your shot Shoot right to the top and that's where Somewhere down the road We'll finally be the show You'll triumph on the stage Get the right words on the page And everyone will know your name

You fame your secret Shame will be gone Gone long, gone long gone, it'll be gone. That's what they told me, at least the old me. I gotta call their bluff, life is surely tough enough without fantasy. Tomorrow's ghost is always calling me with the promise of who I could be. And all that work will pay off handsomely, but what if this is it?

accolades no holy crusades no more one day when we'll all be better men and women it's could I be okay with just a simple day where I don't make wishes I just do the dishes and love my lady J first the wedding bells then her belly swells if I'm still in the race I'll miss the sunlight all her face and then who can tell time to drop the act give up the ghost saying love me please from coast to coast if i get still like any of my innermost it says this is it i have been up there the air's too thin up there life's not up ahead it's right here in this bed and it don't make much sense in the future tense and oh this is it this is it this is it the

full lights flicker and they fade to black it in gets rusty on the plaque the good Lord calls everybody everybody everybody back this is it this is it this is it this is it this is it is it is it is just because this is it this is it this is is it, this is it. I know that this is it, nah. I like that this is it, nah. Thank God that this is it. Oh, that was awesome.

Thanks, man. That was awesome. Thanks. So intimate. I just feel like you're just like opening a door to your heart. And this is like this, such a pure love song. It's gorgeous. Wow, thanks, man.

Beautiful. Thanks. Hey, before I let you go, one question we ask every guest, we have this crazy word. soul, soul boom before I had soul pancake. You were on soul pancake. Yeah. For anyone who's interested, we had a video together on a talk show in the back of my van, metaphysical milkshake. But how do you define the word soul? It's a, it's a tricky, nuanced word. Yeah. What do you think so? What a soul mean to you? Well, I'm cheating because my wife and I just had a conversation about this. Okay. So spirit is upward. Okay. Soul is down.

spirit is ascent and soul is descent. And, you know, I've had spiritual teachers and spiritual groups I've been that were all about ascent. And I felt like they forgot about the body. They forgot about the earth. They forgot about their fellow humans. It was all about getting away from here in some ways. And I think of soul as, you know, going downward into the depths of self. and confronting the parts of oneself that are the hardest to look at, the shadowy parts,

but also the parts that are divine and beautiful and wonderful. I love, Carl Jung says, you know, that I'd rather be whole than good. And I think of soul, it rhymes, like it's whole. It's a wholeness, right? It's all of us. That's a lot of food for thought. Yeah. Wonderful.

Thank you. Josh Radner, thanks so much for coming on. Hey, man. Thanks for being, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. The Soul Boom podcast. Subscribe now on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever else you get your stupid podcasts.