Soul Boom - Inside Serena Williams' Mind (w/ Patrick Mouratoglou)

Episode Date: April 10, 2025

Let's explore the mindset behind greatness. Patrick Mouratoglou is a world-famous tennish coach, known for his work with Serena Williams and Naomi Osaka. opens up about his childhood struggles with anxiety and how small daily victories led him to become one of the most sought-after coaches in sports. He reveals what it really took to help Serena Williams rediscover her fire, and why confidence isn't built in a day, but in consistent, quiet effort. 👉 PRE-ORDER 'Champion Mindset' NOW ⏯️ SUBSCRIBE! 👕 MERCH OUT NOW! 📩 SUBSTACK! FOLLOW US! 👉 Instagram: http://instagram.com/soulboom 👉 TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@soulboom CONTACT US! Sponsor Soul Boom: [e-mail]  [e-mail] Send Fan Creations, Questions, Comments: [e-mail] Executive Produced by: Kartik Chainani Executive Produced by: Ford Bowers, Samah Tokmachi Companion Arts Production Supervisor: Mike O'Brien Theme Music by: Marcos Moscat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You're listening to soul. Building your confidence, it's if every day you're able to do one thing that you were not able to do yesterday, even a small thing, you slowly get the feel that you can do things. I worked with a lot of players who were at the lowest moment of their career. Serena, when I started with her, two years without winning a grand slam, she was struggling. And actually, she asked me to help her win one last grand slam. She won 10 afterwards. The only thing I did...

And that's very applicable to life. The victory is over yourself. It's not over anyone else. Hey there, it's me, Rain Wilson, and I want to dig into the human experience. I want to have conversations about a spiritual revolution. Let's get deep with our favorite thinkers, friends, and entertainers about life, meaning, and idiocy. Welcome to the Soul Boom podcast. We've got merch.

Soul Boom fam. I'm so excited. Our first merch drop is officially here. Go to Soulboom.com. You can get totes, tanks, teas, hoodies, beanies, mugs, water bottles, sippies, a handy-dandy journal. It's all supporting the cause, support the boom. Shop now at soulboom.com slash store. Patrick, welcome to Soul Boom. Thank you. We've done dozens and dozens of episodes with writers and thinkers and theologians and stand-up comics who are always on a verge of a nervous breakdown.

and this is our first, like, world champion tennis coach with a brand new book champion mindset, and we're going to get into that. But help me understand something. Okay. Help me understand something. I struggle with this idea of confidence and willpower, especially willpower, because if you watch a lot of, like, online motivational speakers, it's all about, like, you get up at 4.30 in the morning and you do your cold plunge, and then you do your 45 minute,

you know, meditation and then you set your goals and then you've made 20 outreach calls before 7 a.m. And then for someone who's just a normal schlub like myself, you're like, you try and get up and then one day you don't and then you don't make the call and then you and you feel like a failure. I struggle too with this idea of willpower. I'm in 12-step program of recovery and there's a kind of a interesting dichotomy at the center of it, which is in surrender, you find strength. You don't find strength of defeating your, in this case, addictions through willpower. In fact, willpower is kind of your enemy. You know, how many times have we seen an alcoholic say, like, today I'm not going to drink.

I promise it's not going to happen. And then they lose. But in throwing up the white flag and like, I give it. up, I surrender. There can be great. Wisdom and ultimate victory. And I feel that way as an artist as well that sometimes it's in bending. It's in, you know, being the willow tree and the breeze. It's, it's being the wave breaking on the beach. It's in a kind of a softness rather than a kind of a hard, more aggressive, more kind of traditionally male sense of like, I'm going to do this motherfucker thing, that one can find a path forward.

What do you think about that? I agree 100%. But the people that are describing are just caricatures. First, a goal has to depend only on you. That's very important. Second, the goal has to be achievable. What you describe, a guy who says, you wake up at four, you do this, you do this. I mean, who's doing that?

I mean, machine. Or maybe you can be able to do that after 10 years having so many victories. A victory is over yourself. It's not over, first of all, it's not over anyone else. It's over yourself. For me, as a kid, if I could speak to one new person every day, one person, even for two minutes, it was an incredible victory.

Because for me, that was so difficult. So, yes, of course, when you talk about those people who are completely stereotypes and aggressive in the way they are telling you, they're trying to convince you this way, first of all, it doesn't work. I don't believe in that. I'm talking about building your confidence, it's if every day you're able to do one thing

that you are not able to do yesterday, even a small thing, you slowly get the feel that you can do things, that you are able to do things. Things that look difficult yesterday, they don't look difficult anymore today. You learn about yourself being capable of doing things you didn't think you were before. And that's how you build your confidence. we are all the result of our history and all the experiences that we have had the good ones, the bad ones.

That's why it's so important. These little victories are so important and my job as a coach to rebuild confidence and I worked with a lot of players who were at the lowest moment of her career. Serena, when I started with her two years without winning a grand slam, she was struggling.

And actually she asked me to help her win one last grand slam. She won 10 afterwards. but and I did with others before and I do with Naomi Osaka since September my job is to make them win little victories every single day

I've worked with people who had no more confidence in what they were doing because they were having a year or two or three of bad results and they didn't believe in themselves at all the same way as before and I rebuild that not by talking just by helping helping them go through those little victories every day.

So how do you take someone like Serena Williams to, and you started working with her, she'd already won several grand slams? 13. 13, okay. How does someone like that, you know, the greatest tennis player maybe that's ever lived, and move her forward through little victories,

someone at that level? For tennis players, the tennis court is the best place for them to have little victories because that's what they do. and you want to rebuild their confidence in tennis. I don't think Serena was losing confidence in herself in life, but in tennis, yes, because for someone like her not to win a grand slam for two years, it's not something that was normal.

And she was, yeah, so she was thinking, seeing herself different ways. And I realized that she was also processing differently. And I tell this story in the book also that's where I understood. The first sermon we do together is Wimbledon. She lost in the first run in Rangarros, and then she calls me and we start to work right after Rangarros. And she's in the... When she qualifies for the same as in Wimbledon, I'm at the restaurant of Wimbledon, and she runs to me with a big smile and she says, guess what?

Whatever happens Monday, I'm top five, top three in the world. And I'm shocked that Syrin has to... Who cares? She's Syrina Williams, top three? And I look at her and I say, and... She doesn't answer. And she suddenly... she realizes that how can I think like that?

I'm Serena. I'm happy to be top three. Right. That's not going to cut it. Yeah, but you see, even Serena... If she had settled for just being top three, she wouldn't have had the juice to win the whole thing. Yeah, and she never thought like that.

She always thought... So there was a flaw in her thinking. Yes, but because when you have those bad experiences, it affects also the way you see yourself, the way you think, everything. Which is true in both cases, when you have good experiences, you start to think differently too.

I didn't say anything else. She saw my reaction. I said, and? And in the evening, she sent me a text message and she said, I'm sorry for what I said today. Number three is terrible. Actually, number two also. And that was it.

And she won Wimbledon. Two weeks later, she won two gold medals at the Olympics, singles and doubles. One month later, she won the US Open. And at the end of season, she won the WTO championship. And she came back to number one, where she stayed three and a half years.

The only thing I did is to bring her back to thinking like Sirena was thinking before. That's all I did. But it's amazing. But it's everything. It's everything. Trust me.

This is what we call the confidence. So even someone that has such an incredible mindset because I would say that probably that's the thing that defines Sirena the best, probably the best mindset in sports I've ever seen. Yeah. Crazy. How does her mindset different?

than so many other number ones before and since. She thinks she can do anything. And she's right. And I can tell you, if she tells you this chair is white and you see it red, you think, but no, it's red. But it is right, and she's going to make this chair be white, I can tell you, because she sees it white. And she's done that.

For example, she told me, oh, I don't understand how I lost this Australian Open. I don't know which year I said, but you broke your ligaments of the leg. And I should have one on one leg. And she believed it. When she had a baby, she said, when she was pregnant and she knew she would have the baby in September, she said, you have to, she calls me and she says, please find a healing partner for September. I said, but September, you're giving birth. And?

But you're not going to practice right after you. And? No, for sure she would. She's sure she would. And I've seen her because this I've seen with my eyes, because I was coaching her. Rarangaros, 2015, the whole tournament, 40 degrees fever. I mean, Celsius, sorry, I don't know in Fahrenheit, but it's the maximum you can have.

Yeah. So she couldn't leave the bed for the whole French Open. She stayed in bed. You have no idea. She couldn't even walk. A few times I told her, let's go outside and walk at least for a few minutes. You cannot stay in bed all day. Couldn't move.

We did zero practice, zero warm-up before matches. So she was going straight from the bed to the stadium to play the match. She lost every first set because she was dead. But then the rage, the refusal to lose came in and she won. After every match, I don't know that because I have female tennis players that I know well that were in the locker room at Rangaros. During that time, they told me that she was laying down for at least one hour on the floor after every match crying.

because she gave more than what she had, and she won the French Open. This is impossible, impossible, but she did it. That's why I'm saying someone who believes in herself that much, who thinks that whatever circumstances, she's going to win, this is incredible. This is really incredible. I've never seen that.

But it's interesting in your book, too, because you talk about working with Serena and making little adjustments to real basic technique. stuff. Like you talk about like going after the ball as opposed to being a little bit passive and letting the ball come to you or reach for it or something like that. So she had that mindset, but at the same time, everyone, even the great Serena Williams requires someone to say, you got to bend your knees more. For sure. What are some examples of some of those technical things that you were working with her on that would kind of surprise the listener

First, I had a plan, and my plan was to bring her confidence, because I knew that if I would bring her to think again with the same mindset as the one she had before, and even better, because I thought I could help her even do better, want more, which we did, actually, because she's never played as much as when we worked together. She was playing so many tournaments. She wanted to win everything.

She had so much hunger, because also for the same reason, and she told me, she said, to me, I lost too much time because I was not focused enough. I didn't have the right people. Otherwise, I would have so many more grand slams. So she had this hunger. So why did I...

I tell you, I had a plan. My plan was to make her on the tennis court successful and daring because that's also of her thing. She's daring. When she hits the second serve, she's not conservative. She would go for an ace.

And I remember people, the healing partner at that time that was next to me, was saying, when she was going for the second serve and missing, oh, my God, so so stupid, she's losing so many stupid points like this. He was saying this. And I answered him, you are completely wrong because that's how she wins the grand slams, because she's not scared. And she goes for it. So, yes, she's a losing point, but she's winning also others and important ones.

To tell her, for example, on tennis courts, at practice, to move in the direction of the ball rather than waiting for it, would make her more successful. Like, when you do so, first of all, you take time away from your opponent, so you hit many more winners. Second, when your body weight goes forward and goes through the ball,

you have a much better sensation. You feel the ball better, so you hit the ball better. When you wait for the ball, you're passive. When you go chase the ball, you're active, you're daring. This also feeds the way she was thinking.

So I knew that having her do that, I would bring her more confidence, more daring, and this will, this plus also talking to her in a way, I would help her come back to thinking like Serena. I love this idea that there was a Serena that she had lost, and you recognize that your goal as a coach was to help her find her inner Serena. Oh, 100%.

So not to put something else on to her, not trying to make her someone else or anything like that, like regain that fire, regain that mindset, regain that skill set that she had that no one else had ever had. Yeah. And several years later, so she wins four grand slams in a row. So she wins U.S. Open, Australian Open, French Open, Wimbledon.

And she's playing the U.S. Open to win her fifth consecutive slam and four the same year. So it's big. it would be making the grand, what we call the grand slam. So four, it would be a record. The four grand slams the same year.

I would be five in a row. And she's in semifinals, and she loses in semifinals against Roberta Vinci, a match that on the paper she couldn't lose. Actually, that's why she lost it. Different story. Anyway, so she loses. This defeat hurt her to a point.

You have no idea. Actually, she said something to me after that, that was crazy. She said, I feel that I, worked all my life for that moment and I screwed up everything. We're talking about someone who just won four consecutive grand slams. Can you imagine the mindset?

It's crazy. That's how you realize that she doesn't think like everyone, right? But this, again, this match really, really destroyed her for month, for month. So for months, she's not playing well, not at all. I mean, her tennis is okay, but she doesn't have. have the mind that she always has. So she loses a lot. Strain open, she loses early, then Miami.

And then she's in the final of Rangaros, but still the same. And before the match in the final, I know she's going to lose because she doesn't have the Serena mindset at all. She's just in final because she plays good tennis. But you don't win a final just with your tennis. You win the final with your guts, with your mentality, with your personality, with your personality. I mean, if you look at the champions, that's what they bring.

it's not their tennis of course you need the tennis but that's not what you will need so I decide before every match every time I do a briefing a match briefing like I tell her how to play against this opponent what are the weaknesses

how to use her strengths etc and this time I decide this is not going to work so I have to remind her who she is because she forgot completely for now eight months and I entered

the room just before the match and I said to her, there is no much briefing today, but I'm gonna tell you who you are because you completely forgot. And I tell her her own story, what she went through as a kid, the fact that she was always number two, because Venus was number one, it was all about Venus.

And she built herself as someone who refused to be number two. And I spoke for maybe 15 minutes to tell her her whole story. For 15 minutes, she's crying. And I think, yes, I reconnected her with her herself. She enters the court, a bomb. First three games, wow, but it lasts only three games. And then again, the Serena that was playing the last eight months. And she loses that match. But one week later, she calls me. I'm at my tennis academy with one of the guys I'm working

with. And she speaks to me. I hang up. And I turned to the guy and I said, Serena is back. The way she spoke to me. So she's going to win Wimbledon. What did you hear in her voice? And she won Wimbledon. Right after. I knew. I had zero doubt. What did you hear? I heard again someone who felt nothing can stop her. And I didn't feel that at all for eight months.

This, again, this defeat really hurt something deep inside her and affected her confidence really badly. And I couldn't find a solution to bring her back for months. But I know that what I... I know. I think that... reconnecting her with herself in the final of Rangaros, produced the result,

but not instantly. I think she realized afterwards, and one week after when she called me, it was a different person. Right. Back to who she is. Yeah. And I think whatever she will want to do in life with this mindset,

not much can happen to her, I tell you. So this is the champion's mindset. I mean, nobody's going to, I'm not saying, you read my book and you're going to be Serena. No, there's only one Serena. in the history of the game, there is only one anyway. But the closer you are to that kind of mindset, the more chances you have in life to be able to do what you dream of doing.

And again, what is important is not the trophy. I always explain that. It's the journey. The journey is amazing, the excitement to work towards what you dream about doing or achieving, knowing it's going to be difficult, knowing sometimes you're going to fail, and it's completely okay, because when you fail, you understand what not to do,

which is very important, or how to do things in a way that is going to work rather than not work. So this is the most exciting. I mean, I lived the best years of my life when I had the exciting, I mean, goals that were super exciting to me. Like, crazy. Whenever I work with a new player, I'm so excited.

New goals, I start from scratch. I don't know the person. I have to rediscover. I don't have my... I never say I have my method. you know, I bring this player, going into my method, it's going to work. No, I have to find a method that is different

for each player because everybody's so different. That's so exciting. So that's what life is about, I think. And if you live the life like that, then you, I use this word of work of art because your life has to be your work of art. What you dream of doing. That's great.

It has to be. Your life is your work of art that you're creating. Yeah, maybe for someone else is going to be shit. But it cares. It's your life. It's yours. Every family has a story.

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it's easier and faster than ever to get started. Get ready to say, look what I found. Visit Ancestry.ca. New Year for more details. Terms apply. You posted a quote from Deepak Chopra. I thought it was interesting. There was an argument that he was making that it's better to focus on developing strengths than mitigating weaknesses. Why do you think that's true? I think that's true because you do great things with your assets.

And I've seen that in tennis a lot, but I think it's very true in life as well. You know, if you remember, I mean, today tennis has evolved a lot, but I mean, since the 70s, if you look at all the champions, they have big weaknesses, but I'd have incredible strength. Some press back end was so bad, but the guy had to serve. Yukovic doesn't have a weakness.

That's true. But I said today's tennis. I mean, Siener doesn't have either... Back in the day, now they are... I mean, everything's perfect. But if you look at the past champions, I mean, Patrick Rafter,

he couldn't hit a winner from the baseline, the guy who became number one in the world because he was the best serve and volley player in the world. world. So there was one thing he was doing incredibly well. And I've seen a lot of players that had one strength, but also a big weakness. And they spent so much time working on their weakness. Weakness became better, but the strengths became weaker. And they couldn't win anymore. Why? Because first of all, when you work on your strength, you kind of feed your ego and your

self-confidence. Because you work on something you're doing great. When you work on something you're doing badly all day long, you don't feel great at the end of the day. I suck. And when people point your weaknesses, they make you weaker. When they see you with kind eyes and they see the greatness in you because there is greatness in everyone, they make you feel stronger also. So they feed your self-confidence. So that's why working on your strength, mostly, I'm not saying only, you have to also work

on your weaknesses, but you have to spend most of the time developing. your strengths, so they become much better. If you surround yourself with people that look at you with kind eyes, which is so important because people are very, very... I've never heard that before. Surrounding yourself with people who look at you with kind eyes.

That's a very wise thing to say. Yeah, and you know all the TV stars, people say, oh, look, they have people that are like licking their ass all day long. Do you hear that? Yeah, yeah. Right? Oh, the singers or like all the famous people.

and their posse that, yeah. Yeah, but people misunderstand something. Those people have so much pressure. Of course, they have people around them that look at them with can eyes, for sure. I've seen tennis players change girlfriend and start to win everything because they're in love and their wife

look at them like they're God and they give them so much confidence. I think it's very important. The way people that are close to you look at you, if they look at your weaknesses, I can tell you, you're not going to feel good. You're not going to feel confident. That's not true.

So we are fragile, all of us. We are fragile. And I think the people around and what you do every day either build your confidence or destroys it. And there is nothing great you're going to do if you don't have confidence

in your ability to achieve what you want to achieve. No chance. This doesn't exist. I've never seen that. So I'm a tennis player. You are. Super average tennis player.

But I love the game. so much. And for me, there's a spirituality to the game of tennis. You see the players on TV hitting it so hard. It's almost like a major league baseball player hitting a baseball really hard. But the amazing and beautiful thing about tennis is the stroke is like Tai Chi. The stroke is it's an arc. It's an oval. It's brushing the strings. And it's almost like a dance. It's not hitting hard through the ball. It's there is sure there is force and there's power, but it comes out of grace and it comes out of really the legs and the hips and the rotation of the torso. And it comes from an awareness of deeply seeing the ball for me and my anxiety disorder,

tennis is one of the things that brings me such joy because I can go play tennis for two hours. And over the course of those two hours, I'm not even thinking about emails and texts and what I need to do and what I need to worry about because it's a game. It forces you to watch that little motherfucking green ball. And if you don't, you'll hit the ball in the net or you'll hit it long. So there's a kind of a grace and a mystery to the game of tennis. To me, I liken it closer to like a martial art than to other games. that are much more about physical force. I agree 100%.

And I like what you said. If I can tell a little story, it's going to be sure. I love the stories. We love the stories. Keep them coming. Stories are good. I met the guy who was coaching the world champion in chess. Who was a fan of tennis?

And he came to my academy. Magnus Carlson? No, I don't remember 20 years ago. Oh, okay. And the guy told me, you know what? all the chess players almost are playing tennis. I say, oh, wow, why?

He says because that's the only activity in which they stop making chess games in their mind because he said the problem with this sport, chess, I mean sport. It is a sport. It is a sport. It is that people get so obsessed to professionals

that they play games in their mind 24-7 and they cannot stop. No stop. Non-stop. Their mind is working and they say, okay, these seven, They're playing games. And he said, tennis is the only activity

that makes them disconnect. So they really need it. And your question is, why? I think the reason why, you said one of the reason is that you need that focus because you don't want to miss, but also because it's a game. Compared to other activities, jogging.

Jogging is the opposite, for example. When you do jogging, your thoughts go everywhere. Yeah. I think it's great, actually, because actually, I'm very creative when I do jogging because I let my mind really go and have a hundred ideas, but you cannot stop your mind.

In tennis, you think of nothing. You think of the game. Because there is a ball, there is an opponent, you need to find a way to win the point. So it's a game. And that's what's so magic about this sport is that you don't do sport. You play a game and you happen to do sport,

which is great for your health. But when you go to the gym, you go there because you want to exercise. When you go to the tennis, you just want to have fun. You just want to play a game. So that's why we love it so much. And that's why you can think of something else because otherwise you're not in the game.

And as you're playing a game, you focus on the game. So everything else is put aside and you are totally right. One of the things also I love about tennis is that I would say that your biggest opponent in tennis is yourself. How do you balance that in the game of tennis of playing your opponent

and looking at their patterns, their tendencies, their weaknesses, judging where they are on the court? but really overcoming your internal obstacles to win a point or a game or a set or a match. I would say, and I always said to my players, there is zero reason to lose a match. Zero.

Zero. So technically you can win all the matches. So if we don't win a match, we did something wrong. So let's do everything right before. You just have to get it over the net one more time. That's actually true. So to answer your question, I look at the weaknesses before of the opponent.

opponent. Why? Because then I just create a game plan. What does the player have to do? Two things. One, respect the game plan, which is something that he can do. I don't ask him to do things he doesn't know how to do. So just do the game plan. Stick to the game plan. Do it full. And second is his mental, his mindset. With which mindset do I go to the match? Am I scared to lose or am I excited because I want to win. Completely different. And people don't wake up the same way every day. Don't play the same opponent every day.

So sometimes you fear the opponent. I mean, it will affect your mindset. So all those things I have to feel. Because if my player has this mindset, it's not going to be great today. And I have to change it. So I have to feel what my player thinks or how he or she feels going to the match.

And then control what's going to happen mentally during the match because not everything is going to be great from the first point to the last one. There will be ups, downs. How do I think? How do I process? What do I say to myself?

These are the goal matches. And those things depend on you. And what do you say? You're playing a terrible match or you're making a lot of unforced errors. You're in your head. You're doubting yourself. What do you tell your players

to focus on? What's the next right thought? In tennis, you're going to play well. five times a year. If you wait to play well to win, we're in trouble. So this is never a goal to play well. You have to accept that today you play the way you play. Doesn't mean that you're going to lose, no. That's amazing. And that's very applicable to life. Oh, yeah. You're going to have a handful, 10, a dozen, a couple dozen, like, great days where you're just making great choices and you feel dynamite. But otherwise, you accept life on life's terms. Yeah. When you play great, it's easy to win.

Anyone would win. What is difficult is to win when you don't play well, which will happen anyway, 90% of the time. Sometimes you're going to play okay, sometimes you're going to play bad, sometimes you're going to play terrible. The champions find a way to win 90% of the times. Whether they play good or not, this is not the point.

The thing is, and as you said, you have to win the victory over yourself. And what does it mean? It means that as you're not going to play well most of the time, you're going to get frustrated, you're going to start to think negative. All these things, are going to affect more and more the way you're going to play

and make you lose at the end. So what are you going to do? What are you doing when you play bad? When you don't play well, when you don't feel your shots, I think typical that we hear all the time. Oh, I don't feel my forehand today. Okay, and we stop the match or what's happening? Resign, yeah.

Yeah, exactly. So, okay, you don't feel your forehand? No, Bram. You feel your backhand then. Use your backhand. Or use your serve or use your legs or, you know, just stick to the game plan. Find a solution.

using what you have, and it's also applicable to life. Don't look at what you don't have. Don't look at yourself. Look at the other side of the court, how to find a solution against this guy. It's not about you. It's about beating the opponent. So just use what you have.

That's actually the greatest quote of art rash. Start where you are, do what you can. Use what you have, do what you can. That's exactly what tennis is. Say that again, that's an amazing quote. Is that up on the U.S. US open that's on a, it's up on a wall. I read that you say that again.

Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can. That's exactly it. What do you have today? Okay, I have only this. Okay. Do the best you can with this,

knowing that your opponent also has weaknesses. And also he's not playing the match of his life. Even if he does, it's not going to last. He cannot play. Also something I say to my players, oh man, he's playing incredible today. Yeah, true. Like, Naomi played against Muko.

second round, O'SRen Open, 5-0 Mukova in 12 minutes. She's playing incredible. Naomi is turning to me. Stay there. It's not going to last. At some point, she will start to play a little bit. She's going to have a bit of doubt that moment. Be there at that moment and then the match she's going to switch.

Right. And this is what happened. She won the match. Naomi won it. And she was completely overplayed at the start. So there are always solutions. If you are focusing on yourself and what doesn't work, when the opportunities are going to come up,

you're not going to take them. You're not going to even see them. So stop looking at yourself and what doesn't work. Start to look on the other side of the court and use what you have. That's basically it. That's quite simple, but it's not easy to do. Because it's the most frustrating sport on that planet,

and you know that. Yes, I do. I do. Someone said a great piece of advice, which is, in tennis, you need to think like a goldfish. You've just blown a point. You had a winner and you hit it 10 feet long or you hit it into the back fence.

And then a goldfish has a two-second memory. Boom. Just you're right back. Because if you dwell at all on those mistakes, they'll haunt you and take you out of being able to truly see the ball. And one mistake that you remember will bring another one, that will bring another one, that will bring another one. So you have to erase and refocus on the game.

What do I want to achieve? Oh, I want to achieve that. Because as a coach, sometimes you're very frustrated also because the player has an attitude that is completely counterproductive. It happened to me a few times. And I never got angry. Like, I was angry a few times internally. And every time I said, and this is also a good lesson I learned,

never ever act or talk when you are under an emotional... When you're in an emotional level that is too high. Because you're going to say something you should not or you're going to do something that you're going to regret, which is true in life. So every time... You say that emotion is a great motivator

but a terrible counselor in your book. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I read your book. See. Thank you. What do you mean by that? Oh.

A motivator and not a counselor because that's kind of what you're getting at right here. We all seek emotions, right? That's why we watch movies. That's why we love sports because we love emotions, okay? But when your emotional state is very high, it's your mind is not thinking anymore.

It's just your emotion that is talking. And this is where you say things to friends or your wife or that you're going to regret afterwards or do things that you're going to regret. So what is important when it takes two important decisions or when you talk to your player, it's an important moment because everything you say is going to have an impact.

A positive one or a negative one? And I've seen a lot of players that carry, still carry years later things that they've heard about them when they were young, by people who were angry at some moments. Maybe they didn't think it, or maybe they did, but they probably would not say it if they were not angry.

Every time I had this emotion level that was too high, and I always try to be aware of my emotional level, I always step back and I wait. And I wait for it to calm down. And then I ask myself that question, what do you really want? I want my player to succeed. Okay, so what should you do in that situation?

Now that the emotion is down, And then I see things completely differently. And I found a good solution that I would not have found at all if I would have reacted on the moment. I've seen match debriefing by coaches that are frustrated because their player lost, but they destroy their player.

They kill their confidence because they're frustrated. So they just talk out of frustration. This is not coaching. Coaching is to say the right thing at the right time to build the confidence of the people and make them more successful. So the emotion, I mean, people who fight,

couples who fight all the time. Is it intellectual or is it emotional? Absolutely emotional. Yes, I think we have this. And how many times do they regret afterwards? Oh, yeah. Hello, guilty. We are all guilty.

Jonathan Haidt talks about how we're the writer on the elephant. You know, the elephant is all of our emotions. We think that our intellect is really running the show, but most of the time it's our instincts, impulses, emotions, are past traumas that are moving us forward. We'd love to hear from you on the topic of mental health. On the show, we've gotten a chance to talk to actors, comedians, artists, authors, thinkers, philosophers, theologians.

But you know what? You guys are also artists and theologians and thinkers and feelers. We've gotten flooded with so many incredible, thoughtful comments. This is a chance to really highlight. what you're going through, what you're thinking, what you're questioning, what you're asking, what you're wrestling with. This is your episode. We'd love to hear from you. Please put your questions that you have, issues, you have hurdles, you have obstacles, you have, also thoughts about what has worked for you. Put it in the comments down below. We'd love to hear from you. You can also

write us at soul boom submissions at gmail.com. You can send in video, you can send in audio, you can write out your question, concern, issue, thoughts, send it to us. We'll address these directly on a very special episode targeting spiritual tools for mental health. Thanks so much. I have a hard time with coaching, goals, and willpower, even the title, like, champion mindset. Like, to me, inside, I want to throw up a little bit. Why do I have such a resistance to those, kind of, that way of thinking about being in the world? Where am I wrong here? Well, I think it's a question of culture.

I've been in the culture of winning because my job. You have to. My job is about it. My job is about helping people achieve their goals, which are, in my case, in tennis. And I think that, I mean, extraordinary people are able to do extraordinary things because they have extraordinary passion and goals. And, I mean, I see it in sport, but I think it's true for a lot of things in life. It's a very deep question because it's also the question of happiness, which is a concept that is very not very clear. The definition of happiness is difficult to never heard a good definition of happiness.

happiness. It's true. And I kind of feel that happiness is somewhere inside the champion mindset which is not about achieving goals because this lasts the pleasure of it, the happiness of it lasts a few seconds, a few minutes, but more in the pursuit of that. And I think it's kind of beautiful. And you know, I'm working with champions, of course, and people who have achieved great things and want to achieve more. But I'm I'm working also with a lot of children, I mean, when I say children, from 11 years old, basically to more, who want to achieve something in sport

or in life in general, because I have a school, a tennis school, but also a school. I see how great they become by having goals, being focused on something rather than a bit lost, like a lot of kids of the same age, we don't really have goals. I think it's great to have goals, and I don't see anything that negative.

You know what? You convinced me. You convinced me. Here's where I struggle, I guess, a little bit. There's, I guess it's an internet thing a little bit of like, there's a certain kind of person that's selling, like, winning at all costs on YouTube and motivational speaking and on podcasts. And it usually just sets me off.

But even as you were speaking, like, you're absolutely right. You're 100% right. Like, your job is to coach Serena, Williams to win a major. And to do that, you're going to need a bunch of puzzle pieces that build toward a champion mindset where not only is she top 10 in the world, but then to win a major on top of that is a whole other kind of level of achievement. And when I think about myself, you know, I can kind of roll my eyes a little bit about like, you know, winning championship goals, willpower. But at the same time, when I think about my career, you know, I was this nerdy little

geeky, weird actor from Seattle. And I wanted to be a professional actor. And then I was. And then I wanted to do, you know, I wanted to be on Broadway. And then I was. And I set goals to like have a television career. And then I did. And then I had set goals to star in movies. And I did. And so I did exactly what you're talking about. I might have done it in a slightly unconventional. way. But one of the things I liked about your book is talking about there's a fulfillment that is found in setting the goals and working on them and being in the movement of bumping up against the goals. It's not just about achieving them. It's being in that way. It's a way of being. And you talk about little victories yes uh of course and i agree 100 percent i mean first of all i'm happy to see that

you recognize yourself in someone who has a champion mindset uh which to describe it very simply it's people who are not afraid to set goals for themselves because it's scary to set goals for how it's scary it's scary because people are always uh afraid to fail they're always a lot of them are thinking they're not good enough to do it. And in a way, when you set goals, you expose yourself. It's better to say, I don't want anything. Right. You know, I'm just living my life.

Because if you don't meet those goals and you fall short, then... Exactly. And it's taking a risk to exposing yourself. Yes, little victories are very important. For one major reason is the perception that we all have of ourselves. which people call self-confidence, self-esteem. There are differences between self-esteem and self-confidence, but let's not go there.

The thing is to not be afraid to set goals, to not be afraid to start moving towards your goals and doing everything you can in order to achieve your goals, to be able to accept failure. It's because on the way to your goal, you're not going to succeed every time. You're going to have setbacks also So to be able to accept that, to be able to look at yourself and your mistakes, to learn from that, you need self-confidence.

And self-confidence is probably one of the things people struggle the more with. And I was a perfect example of that because when I was a kid, I had zero self-confidence. But zero-zero, zero-zero. I was so unconfident that I couldn't even talk to people. I was alone as a kid because I was sure that if I would speak to someone, I would look stupid. so I was not talking. I learned it myself, how to build my self-confidence. It took me 10 years from basically 16 years old to 26.

At 26, I was a different person. It took me 10 years. And then I used all I learned from myself. I used it for my players. And this is where the little victories come in. The little victories is the things you do every day. And I'm not talking about victory in a sense that you described it. Like, oh, I'm a champion.

No, no, no, no. A little victory is to wake up in the morning. It's a little victory. A lot of people are, when you don't have a job, they don't wake up in the morning. To go to the gym, to be able to do something very little that you were not able to do the day before. It's all these little victories that build your confidence in yourself day after day. Coming from zero self-confidence, zero, I had one little victory. It was not that little, but it was still very little.

But to me, it felt great at that time. And this victory gave me the courage to go get another one. And then another one... What was the victory? I mean, it was a big victory to be here. Well, let me slow down because I don't want to take you back there. I have a hard time picturing you. You're handsome, successful guy who have, you know,

coached multiple people to great success in 10. and started all these amazing tennis academies around the world. You work with young people from underprivileged young people bringing them up. You know, consider one of the greatest coaches in the world. I have a hard time picturing you at 14, 15, 16, not being able to have conversations. But you talk about it a little bit in the beginning of the book. Can you take us back there? Because I think this will help me and maybe help our listeners to kind of understand

where you're going because where you started and where you are now. is a pretty remarkable journey. Yeah, and you know, sometimes I do also conferences for companies, and every time I have this question, what are you the most proud of in your career? And honestly, I'm proud of nothing because I'm always excited with what I'm going to do tomorrow, but I'm really proud of one thing,

and I always say that, is to transform the 16 years old that had no chance in life, but when I say no chance, you have no idea, into a 26 years old adult that was afraid of nothing and wanted to achieve all his dreams. And actually, I did probably 10 to 100 times more than what I would ever dream of. But so the important journey is between 16 and 26.

After that, you know, when you are, when you are young, you feel nothing can resist you because you're confident. You are full of dreams and you have full of energy. Of course you're going to have success. For sure. The question is, how do you get into that person? And this was the journey. So I'm not exaggerating.

I was having panic attacks every single night. I couldn't sleep at night. We have that in common. I went through a period of time with great anxiety attacks that held me back from many days, even leaving my apartment in New York. I can relate to that. A lot of people do.

But it was really, really, really. really strong. I couldn't sleep at night. I was terrible at school. I could not focus. I could not understand what teachers were asking me to do. So I was the last in school.

I got kicked out for many schools. I was extremely shy. I couldn't speak to anyone, really. I could not. And my life was miserable. And tennis saved me because I started to play tennis when I was four.

And the tennis court was the only place in the world where I felt good. We felt, oh, at least I'm good at something. And I was not shy on a tennis court because I was feeling strong on a tennis court. But I was the only place in the world. So my life was really a disaster.

And honestly, I was not feeling like living. Because I was also seeing no escape from that, no escape. Right. Stuck in that. Completely stuck. And I had violence also at school. The teachers were violent. Yeah, you talk about that. in your book, you talk, you were, you were hit 44 times, something like that.

Yeah, for year. I was counting, yeah. You can, how many? 44, yeah. Yeah, 44 times. And was this just a French way of teaching or is it a time or a specific kind of school that you were going to? You were going to like the punching school or something? No, I think it's, you know, a long time ago, that's what school was like this, you know,

the kids were hit when you didn't know. I'm older than you. It didn't happen to you? And I was not ever hit in the American public school system. That's good. In the hallways, I was hit by people, by people my own age a lot. There was a lot of hitting going on. But yeah, not teacher to student.

Yeah. I mean, actually, there's a big scandal at the moment in France, in which the prime minister is involved, because it was a school where his wife was working. and there was the older kids were hit but really, really hard, really badly. A lot of kids were also sexually assaulted by teachers. So it was, yeah, it was a, and he knew. Apparently he knew because a lot of people made reports to him and ignored it for years.

And now he's prime minister, so he's in trouble. Anyway, it's still happening today. Now it's illegal. But, you know, for the previous generation, I mean... So it's just getting a wrong answer? Was it like buffing off? Yeah, no, no, wrong answer.

Some teachers were really extremely scary. We were hearing stories that this teacher who really ripped the ear of a student. Yeah, but they were having fun, really. They were liking it. Unfortunately, it's very true for a lot of humans when they have power over people who are weak. Yeah.

They abused that power, but as was it. And as I was very bad at school, I was really struggling. I was one of the ones that was targeted mostly. So it was a big trauma for me. That was a big trauma. I mean, for someone that was already struggling at school, having panic attacks, and was so shy. I mean, the list that I can say is that it didn't help me.

So anyway, that was my past. And I had a lot of violence also in the streets, got attacked many times. But with weapons when I was young. but and I thought I would die a few times. So I had a lot of trauma and all these things put together. My young age, my childhood until 16 was really, really difficult. But the most difficult, honestly, was the fact that I was not able to communicate with others.

That was really, really affecting me a lot. And the good thing is because there is always positive when there is negative, The positive thing was that because I needed social interactions like everyone do, I was just spending my whole days looking at people, listening to people, trying to understand what they were feeling, trying to put myself in their shoes, and not knowing it, and I was doing this every single day because I was not myself talking, I learned to read people and understand people, which is something that helped me so much afterwards many years later when I started to coach.

And I think it's a big asset. And that's why I love my job so much because it's about understanding people and understanding how they were, how they process, how they were. Everybody's so different. And once you understand how people process, you can really help them achieve what they want to achieve. So in some ways, and I love this. And we've come up on this a lot in soul boom. In some ways, your greatest weakness became your greatest asset. If you're too shy to be able to speak to people,

so you spend your time observing how other people interact, you start to notice nuances of behavior and motivations that other teenagers are not even getting close to understanding. So that kind of empathy, sensitivity, powers of observation became a superpower for you as a coach. Yeah, totally. You explained it perfectly. And I always say that I don't listen to what people say. I hear what they think, which is completely different. Wow. How do you do that? I'd like to learn that. I cannot say that in a few minutes. It takes me time.

But I learn to really listen and I learn to really look and I see a hundred details in everyone that I process. and one day I understand I have all the pieces of the puzzle and I know exactly how to speak to them to motivate them. I understand their fears. I understand what can block them and I help them in the journey to getting what they want to have. If you had a happy and well-balanced childhood,

you might not have that skill set. Of course, of course. So are you grateful for the pain that you went through at that time? No, I cannot be painful for the pain, but you know, it's all about, how you deal with things. I always made the biggest changes in my players

and make them successful in the moment that they were the biggest problems. At their lowest. Yes, because then there is always something that can open, but you have to be really looking at it and thinking, how can I use this bad event? How can I use it in a way to make a change, to make a big step forward,

and there is always an opportunity. You don't always see it, but it's always there. Patrick, thanks so much for coming on our show. I'm honored. I was the first motivational speaker. Your first motivational speaker, first coach. We want to bring more people in

from the world of sports because I think there's so many life lessons to be learned from sport, competition, becoming your best self, little victories and goals. Check out champion mindset, everybody. Thanks, Patrick. Thank you very much, Brian.

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