Soul Boom - Justin Baldoni's Journey to Spiritual Resilience

Episode Date: October 8, 2024

Justin Baldoni (It Ends With Us, Jane the Virgin) dives deep into the complexities of modern masculinity, spirituality, and the challenges of walking a spiritual path in the entertainment industry. He shares personal stories about overcoming ego, the impact of faith on his choices, and how vulnerability has shaped his journey as a father, husband, and creative. Justin and Rainn Wilson also explore the concept of service to others and its transformative power in personal growth and well-being. Tune in to discover how Justin's unique perspective on life, purpose, and storytelling inspires a new way of thinking about manhood, joy, and connection. Justin Baldoni is an actor, director, and advocate for redefining masculinity in the modern era. Best known for his roles in television and his work as a filmmaker, Justin is also the creator of "Man Enough," a platform and podcast that challenges traditional gender norms and explores the complexities of being a man today. Thank you to our sponsors! Factor (50% OFF!): www.factormeals.com/soulboom50 LMNT: http://drinklmnt.com/SoulBoom Waking Up app (1st month FREE!): https://wakingup.com/soulboom Fetzer Institute: https://fetzer.org/ MERCH OUT NOW! https://soulboomstore.myshopify.com/ Sign up for our newsletter! https://soulboom.substack.com SUBSCRIBE to Soul Boom!! https://bit.ly/Subscribe2SoulBoom Watch our Clips: https://bit.ly/SoulBoomCLIPS Watch WISDOM DUMP: https://bit.ly/WISDOMDUMP Follow us! Instagram: http://instagram.com/soulboom TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@soulboom Sponsor Soul Boom: [e-mail] Work with Soul Boom: [e-mail] Send Fan Creations, Questions, Comments: [e-mail] Produced by: Kartik Chainani Executive Produced by: Ford Bowers, Samah Tokmachi Companion Arts Production Supervisor: Mike O'Brien Voicing Change Media Theme Music by: Marcos Moscat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, Soul Boom Generation, I've got a really exciting announcement for you. We've got a substack. If you love the Soul Boom podcast and book and ideas, then you're going to want to get our weekly newsletter Substack sent to your inbox. It's magnificent. There's going to be fantastic guest authors. Some are written by me. A lot of them delve into the ideas around the podcasts that we're doing that week. So sign up. Please subscribe. Go to Soulboom.com.com. Thank you. You're listening to So, Boo. There's never been a way for me to separate my desire to be enough and to fit in in this business with the projects that I make.

Because, of course, I made It Ends with Us and all these films for a very specific reason, but I also wanted people to think I was a good director or a good actor, and I wanted my place in the industry. And I think I've really learned over the course of the last two years that it really doesn't matter. And I've really had the great fortune. of being able to see that what I thought I wanted isn't what I wanted. And I am feeling so genuinely happy and joyful for the first time in a long time.

Hey there, it's me, Rain Wilson, and I want to dig into the human experience. I want to have conversations about a spiritual revolution. Let's get deep with our favorite thinkers, friends, and entertainers about life, meaning, and idiocy. Welcome to the Soul Boom podcast. Thanks for having me. Thanks, Justin. Welcome to Soul Boom. So happy to be here.

Before we start, I'm going to say something. Okay. I think people think they know you. Okay. You're very vocal. You talk about the things you care about. You host this show. You have wonderful thought leaders and people on the show.

But I don't think people really know you. Are you going to try and make me cry? Nope. I'm not going to try to make you cry. But here's what I want your audience to know. We're real friends. I think. Are we real friends? Yes. We're real friends.

When someone's going through something that you love, you go out of your way to make sure they feel seen. When I've needed you, when I've needed help, when I've needed love, you show up. And that's not something that you can capture on a podcast. So before we get into whatever the hell all this stuff is, clearly my career and all of these things, I need you to know that I love you.

and thank you. That's so sweet. I really, I'm trying to not make a joke about it and dismiss it and take that in. Take it in. You can make a lot of jokes later. I really deeply appreciate that.

Thanks. Okay. Can I ask you some questions? What happened when you were a DJ for a top 40 radio station and your handle was just in case? See, I got some deep research. You really did some deep.

Did you chat GPT? Tell me everything I don't know about Justin Bellini? No, Samo Tukmachi. Oh, Sama. I was 15. I did a, we had these projects in high school where you had to figure out what you wanted to do with your life

and go ask questions to a person that held that job. And I had always dreamed of being an actor or a filmmaker. But at that place in Oregon, at that time, it just felt impossible. And my dad remained in the movie and TV business, but he was in the product placement side of thing.

So whatever you, you know, if that had a soul boom, would pay to have that in a movie as an example that was the work that my dad did so he wasn't as much on the creative side growing up as he was on the marketing side but I'd always had this dream like I would just be I just would love that it'd be so cool I'd love to act and and so it just felt like it was impossible so there was no TV business in the town I grew up sure so I picked radio because I also loved music so I interviewed the program director for the local top 40 radio station and he offered me a

job doing overnights on the weekends. Working the 11 to 6 shift while all my friends were like out hanging out and doing things. I was on the radio playing top 40 music and then I picked the name just in case. Proposterous. Which is ridiculous. It was just in time, just in case. I'm so sorry to do this. I also was a DJ. You're kidding. Yeah. At a radio station? Our high school had a radio station on the roof that had a that had like a 30 mile radius or something like that that's so cool i was for two years yeah you did so mine was uncle rain's story hour and i would play punk rock music and i would read children's books over that is so sweet so do it you're introducing uh material girl by madonna go ahead here we go it was funny you know it's nineteen and my and my voice was high it was like

1998 and I did this thing where I was like I was in my upper register. I was like just in case beat 93.7 this is a Leah. It was like that kind of thing. I was like and I would talk like this and it was you know because I was trying to sound like the guys that were on the radio. Yeah. Yeah. And then as I got a little bit older and I was 17 I worked I worked until I was the summer of 18. That's awesome. Yeah. But my favorite moment when I realized I wanted to be in entertainment was I was on the radio at Beat 93 in Medford, Oregon. And Alia, I said Alia just now, and I just remembered, Alia's plane crashed. And she died. And it was maybe like two in the morning. And, you know, a couple thousand listeners. And there were, you know, people working overnight

shifts in the market. And I remember, because I really, like, I had like a crush on Alia. Like, she was so talented. And I stopped the music. And, And I said, hey, I have some news. We just found out that Aliyah was killed in a plane crash. And I said a prayer for her and her soul, live on the air at 2 in the morning at 16. And I remember that, and I get the chills even thinking about it, I remember like the cells in my body lit up. And I don't know if it was the bravery or the courage as a 16-year-old to say a prayer in the town that I was in and, you know, on the radio. or this knowing of like, oh, there's no time and space,

this is what I'm supposed to do. But the feeling was like, oh, this is going to be my life. I want to figure out how I can be praying with my actions and whatever I'm supposed to be doing. And I felt like, oh, I'm going to be in the movie, TV, entertainment industry in some capacity. And I want to be brave enough to pray. I want to be brave enough to live a life where I don't care what anyone else thinks.

I'm gonna just pray for the soul because I felt like I should and I needed to and I wanted to. I didn't care if anybody was listening. And I think that that like changed me in some way. So I always had that in the back of my mind like, wow, why don't we do that more? Maybe that, maybe there was somebody that was you were 16.

I was 16, yeah. So that intersection, because we're looking for these intersections, spirituality, kind of storytelling media, and some kind of higher, service or purpose to the work that you're doing intersecting in this kind of transcendent way, that's just beautiful. My mom had always said, you know, in the Baha'i writings, we're told that every human should engage in an occupation or a trade, but that that occupation or trade should be a form

of service. And it doesn't matter. There's no, like, hierarchy of what's, you know. Yeah, you can do that as a plumber or a schoolteacher or a school teacher or a yeah, exactly, a janitor doesn't matter so long as you're being of service with what you do. And so in that moment, I just think that it was like, everything came together for me. I knew that I was enough. I knew that I was where I was supposed to be.

Didn't care what anyone else thought of me. It was like one of those kind of transcendent moments. Yeah. And it was as simple as saying a prayer for a woman I didn't know who passed away in the middle of the middle of the night. For me, I really had to leave the Baha'i faith for a number of reasons. And I have talked about this extensively and written about it and blah, blah, blah. I don't want to go into the whole thing. But, you know, just the shit hit the fan at age 20, 21, and I just, I couldn't rectify the life I was living.

I didn't want any morality in my life. I didn't want God. I didn't want religion. And I just, I left it hard. And part of it was just a rebellion against my parents, just a good old fashion, just like, fuck you, mom and dad. Yeah. Just like, I'm just doing this thing.

and I was in New York City studying acting and went a little too crazy, as you could imagine, for the next 10, 12 years before I kind of found my way back and I've told that whole story, I won't go into it again, but to what degree did you struggle with your Baha'i spiritual identity that your mom instilled in you so beautifully, finding your way as an actor, Everwood, those early years? What was that struggle like for you?

My roots have been really strong. What I will say, which I have never really talked about publicly, which I only talk about really in therapy or with my wife or my close friends, we've talked about this, is I will say as I got older, the reasons that I didn't break many of the rules or followed the principles of the faith as an example. Like the reason I didn't drink or do drugs, the reason I didn't go sleep with hundreds of women,

not that I could have anyways. But the reason I didn't wasn't necessarily just because I loved God or I loved Bahá'u'llah. It was more because as I uncovered, the roots of the tree of my faith were actually rooted in my mother and not actually in God. So there was a little bit of fear there.

My mom was raised Jewish. So my entire half of my family is Ashkiqq, an Aussie Jew. And we lost people in the Holocaust. I remember the tattoo from Auschwitz on my aunt Pearl's hand growing up. Wow. And so there was a lot of... So kind of almost fear of disapproval.

There was a lot of emotional baggage and trauma that came from her line that I don't even think she realized was kind of lumped into the way that I was taught religion. And that's not her fault. I mean, that's just we are, we are how we're raised. We are, you know, we can only do what we can do. And it wasn't something she was really aware of, but there was a lot of Jewish guilt, I think, laid into this very advanced, progressive, beautiful faith. And so growing up, I just didn't, I didn't really rebel. I wanted to.

I tried, like I tested the limits where I could. But as I got older, I realized that, oh, I'm not doing it for the right reasons. And so that was, I think, my similar journey to what you had, which was I had to figure out, what do I believe? Do I believe this just because of my mom? Because in the Baha'i teachings, we're told one of the fundamental pillars of the faith. Like you cannot be a Baha'i unless you believe in what's called the independent investigation of truth, which is you have to seek out truth for yourself. And we are told literally, literally we are told that we cannot just assume the beliefs of of our parents. We have to discover for ourselves, which is why at 15, Baha'is are allowed to decide for themselves if they want to be Baha'i.

But I just kind of like, yeah, I'm a Baha'i. And I just always kind of lived that way. And then it was in my 20s that I realized that I really had to start to own this for myself. And really in my 30s is when I started to tear it apart

and we've had a lot of conversations around that. And so yeah, so in my 20s and in high school and in college and trying to figure this out, It was always a part of my life. So to this, I've still, I've never been drunk. Never really had a drink outside of like, ordering a virgin, a virgin daffery. And then they give me, you know, a real daffery.

And I'm like, that tastes different. Never smoked pot. Never done those things. And it used to be like a badge of, used to be a badge of honor. And now it's, it's something that I'm proud of, but it wasn't necessarily something that I was doing for the right reasons. Right. Right. Yeah. That makes sense. But I believe it protected me also from a lot of things. I think that having, even if it wasn't cemented and it wasn't growing from the purest place, it protected me in the world because I was always praying. I was always thinking about these spiritual concepts and ideals. I was reading.

And again, it's one of the reasons why I'm married now and I have the relationship I have. You know, the faith was been a part of every area of my life. And it was, and I think, I think the central theme of it was making work your service, kind of like what we talked about when I was 16. Before we go there, I'm gonna do one other biographical question, because here's another, the last missing piece of the puzzle, is you were, what was it, Shark Party 14, what were you in? Shark, what was it?

Spring Break Shark Attack. Spring Break Shark Attack. Yeah. Hallmark movie Everwood, there was like Abercrombie and Fitch for a while, like being. No, no, no, no. I worked at Abercrombie and Fitch. Right.

But I was like relegated to the back because I wasn't good looking enough. Okay, that's crazy. That's a true story. Yeah, like, yeah, the blonde, like the hot, they wouldn't even let me in the Avrogroma. No, you can't get in the Avrogromeda fish. Yeah, too ponchy.

But, but that time, that milieu, in Hollywood, like, everything is about how you look, what have you booked, this kind of social climbing, social status, you know, who's your agent? Like, it's the, the most kind of like toxic environment for someone seeking to walk a spiritual path. Can you talk a little bit about that? It was a very intense probably two years.

So I was in this relationship from 18 and at like mid 18 to 20. I experienced trauma in that relationship that I uncovered later on in my life. And it was leaving that relationship when I was asked if I wanted to be an actor. It was around that time where I think I kind of came into myself in terms of maybe how I looked. And but again, I still had the ugly duckling thing In the back of my head never felt like I was enough Didn't know how I was gonna make it in this world Thought this was a I'd better take this guy up on his offer

Because no one's ever asked me if I wanted to do that before And when he started sending me auditions I will never forget I One of the first auditions he sent me It was, I don't even think it was email then It was like fax or something It was like you know 2000, 2000s, maybe it was email But the description was you know

hot, sexy, blah, something. I was like for soap opera. And I remember calling him, and this is not a joke. I called him and I said, hey, did you mean to send this to me? And he's like, yeah, why?

I was like, I just want to make sure that it was meant for me and not one of your other clients. He's like, why? Well, the description of the character. Because I didn't, I couldn't see myself as this masculine, handsome,

you know, sexy guy. So going through that process, starting to book some of these jobs, And also at the same time, finding a community of people in LA that also had similar beliefs. So I found other Baha'is. And I would gravitate to people like Christians. And my friends had religious and spiritual beliefs. And in some ways, that protected me.

It was almost like an insulation from everything that was happening. And of course, we wanted to go to the parties. And of course, we wanted to meet the girls. And of course, because you're 20 and your hormones are raging and all of this is happening. But at the same time, I did have this deep sense of like, well, I had just been through some really intense trauma. And I felt like God was giving me a chance to maybe do what I was supposed to do. And I didn't want to screw that up. That's where the fear came in.

But what about the social pressures? Again, that pressure that you felt to be popular, accepted, loved. Yeah, they were strong. They're strong. And then you're in that milieu of, you know. But you know what it was? The blessing was that the social. pressures were there, but I never felt like I belonged, which is something that I still struggle

with. And I think has become one of the greatest blessings in disguise. I felt like an outsider. I would walk into a party and I would want to fit in. I wouldn't want to stand out. I would want to like wear whatever cool people were wearing or, you know, dress however. Then why did you wear your pajama tops to this interview? Keep going. They had me get a stylist for this, for, I had made a movie, I don't know if you heard about it. And because I've been wearing the same clothes for last five years. All that to say, I think there was a protection because I never felt like I was enough.

I didn't feel like I was a part of it. So I wasn't trying to do what everybody was doing. Well, I think that's really important for the listeners to hear is how being an outsider, feeling like you don't fit in, can be a, protection and can be kind of a superpower in a way because I think that's another thing that we share is we never both felt like we fed in not only being kind of nerdy behys but just just socially awkward and and we were able to to harness that somehow and it yeah that's a beautiful thing I think that it that it's okay to not try to be like everybody else and what and what I would notice especially growing up in middle school and high school and then even in college is

Whenever I would try really hard, it would feel so awkward and inauthentic. Or I try to talk the way they're talking or use the slang or come in with the joke at the and I just could never do it. I was always like, it was like seeing people dance and it's like they have two left feet and they're just moving to a different rhythm. That's what it was. That's what it felt like with me. And at parties, I was never able to have like, you know, regular conversations because

I'd want to know who somebody was or I'd talk about. my faith or life after death or all of these things that have become my life and my career and people parties don't want to do that I don't want to talk about like deep things when they're you know because I'm messing up they're high so I just had to figure out like where's my place and who are my people and in some ways it protected me and spirituality was a big part of that I took it seriously I really believed that if I was going to be in this business it was a gift from God and that I was going to be of service in some capacity and then in my mind even if it was based on fear of maybe like the wrath of God,

which I don't believe in anymore. I didn't want to squander that. I didn't want to take it, like, I didn't wanna just go and take advantage of a woman and have all these one night stands. I didn't wanna like drink and do drugs and all these things because in my head, even if it wasn't the right thinking,

that would hinder my progress in this other thing that I was really trying to do, which was to have a career and make a difference and have impact. Soul pancake. helped produce your brilliant idea, My Last Days. What do we learn about life from people at the end of their life facing death? And how can we tell that story in such a way where, yeah,

it's going to hit you in the crybone, but it's also going to inspire you and uplift you. And that show was super seminal for the success of Soul Pancake. It kind of kept us moving forward. It really brought a ton of attention. to you as a filmmaker, your next couple of films in a certain way we're tangentially connected to my last days.

So if I look back to all of the success that I have right now in my life, it all traces back to that experience with you and SoulPancake and that work that we did together. It was where I found my passion. It was again, it was like that Alia moment I had you know I'd beat 93 in 2000 1999 2000 because I I was the brokest I've ever been my house was going into foreclosure I had bought a house when I was 22 or 23 on Everwood it was gone was going into foreclosure we were we actually prepped the show we did all the prep work for the show in that house as it was being taken by the bank oh damn I Andy Grammer had loaned me 500

to pay my rent. I had nothing and yet I was the happiest that I've ever been. And I was spending time with these people who were at the end of their lives. And I was getting to ask them questions and talk to them and befriend them. And the bounty of having them tell me their story and the responsibility of having to then make sure that their story is edited the right way, with the right music and shot the right way and then put out in the world so that they could have a legacy so that their kids could grow up and watch it over and over and over again. It was something that I will keep with me forever and it has influenced everything that I have done since. And if you recall, it was like, you know, hey, just, you know, maybe four minutes, five minutes,

like little vignettes. Yeah. And because at the time, that was a long, that was, that was, that was, that was long show for YouTube. That was a long show. It was cat videos and like all kinds of things. And you guys were trying to have these deeper conversations. And yet, the reality was nobody was watching things that were longer than a minute or two. And so four minutes was a gift, right? And I couldn't do it. And I remember it pushed back and I said,

these have to be longer. Like these are people's lives. And so the first one- Was the Zach one? Like 18 minutes? 20? Yeah. By the end, I had found Zach Sobiak.

The end of the first season, Zach Sobiac, who was 17 and he had osteosarcoma and he'd just written this song called Clouds. And I just fell in love with the story. I remember we had a meeting. And at the end of it, Zach's episode ended up kind of breaking the internet. It was 20 minutes long.

It was a full story. It was like a little short film. Hundreds of millions of views. And in the first month, I think he got 14 million views. It crashed Upworthy site. It's how Upworthy built their new algorithm. And his song hit number one on iTunes. And all of these people became like,

they became like family and like little brothers to me. And so they are my angels who I talk. to all the time they are like they are my people and my last days season two which we did together premiered on the c wien and that's where i met claire wineland and how that all circles back is my first movie was five feet apart which was inspired by my little sister claire weiland and my second movie was clouds which was inspired by exact exact and all of this and wayfarer studios my company now in my studio it all points back to when you had started your organization for the same reasons that I do what I do, which is in the spirit of service, how can we make a difference?

You then gave me the opportunity to tell these stories and to find my passion and my service, which has been carried on, you know, over the last 15 years. Early on at SoulPancake, in one of our first meetings, I was like, I want to do a show about death. That was like, and I had no idea. We never talked about it. That was a mandate. And I love that we were this YouTube, like, no one would do stories about death.

No. And then early on after that first season, we went into MTV to pitch it as a, you know, a TV show. And I'll never forget sitting with the heads of MTV. We showed them the sizzle reel. And they were, the lights came, we turned the lights up on the conference room and they were sobbing, oh, and tears are pouring on their face. And they were just so, they were like, that was so beautiful.

We could never make it as a TV show. We could never put it on the air. It's like, why? It's like, because we have to sell Pop-Tarts on the commercial. and they'll be scared of a show about death. No one would touch the show about death. It had hundreds of millions of views, launched your career,

brought so much hope and joy to people. We would get letters all the time of people to say, I wake up every morning. The first thing I do is watch an episode of my last days because it shows me how precious it is to be alive. And every single day they watch an episode. That's why we made it. And we always said a shout out to my partner.

Ahmed, he was my producing partner on the show. We always said that there was a comment on one of Zach's episodes that Ahmed found where it was a former veteran of, he was in the military, so he was a veteran and he wrote on the comments that he was going to take his life.

But he went on and somehow found my last days and he didn't. And that moment, again, it's just like the Alea moment and just like, you know, that moment for me, for Ahmed, I'll never forget, it's like, oh, this is why we're doing it. There was no money. We didn't make any money on that show.

We didn't have a company. There was nothing to gain from it, but something that we made, that we went out, and we made with the spirit of service and with the intention to make a difference, actually saved somebody's life. And whether that was us or Zach or, you know, it was all of us together creating this thing.

And that man is still alive today because of it. And we said, this is why we're doing it. this is why we make the show. And we've carried that, and I've carried that into everything that I've done. It's like, that's been the protection. Why are we doing this? Because time is so short.

Yeah. We are here, it's like we're here like a blip. And believe me, when you're my age, you start to really feel that. Like, I'm 40 now. I'm feeling it. Yeah. I'm feeling it.

And it's scary and it's all so exciting. And it's like this feeling of like, we need to arise and not take it for granted, which was why I made the show in my 20s. because I was wrestling with this idea of mortality. Bahá'u'llah says, I have made death a messenger of joy for thee, wherefore dost thou grieve.

And I didn't understand how it could be joyful. I struggled with it. And that's where the show was about for me. You made death a message of joy in that show. How can I make death joyful? And I found these people who were joyful while dying. And that has stayed with me and has influenced every single area.

And because of that, we're able to have this conversation now. Like it's a part of everything you do, part of everything I do. Not everything. Occasionally I whore myself out. Yeah. You know, you're good at that.

I don't want to get into it too much, but you did five feet apart in clouds, which were beautiful, inspiring stories. They've helped a lot of folks on their mental health crisis and issues. And before we get to, it ends with us, how the hell you're supposed to tell these stories?

that are good for people and be entertaining at the same time. It's such a difficult struggle, because the last thing anyone wants to do is like go to a movie theater if there's like some story that's supposed to be good for you. You know what I mean? It's like the old life cereal commercial. Like get Mikey to eat it.

It's supposed to be good for you, but it tastes great. That's something we've always struggled with. And people ask me all the time, like, why don't they, why doesn't Hollywood make better stories? Why doesn't Hollywood make, stories that you know heal and unite and bring people together and while there are some of those stories out there part of it is you know serial killer movies and horror slasher films sell better and and Hollywood ultimately at the end of the day is a business and if there was a bigger audience for

those films they would be made right and left but you've you've walked that tightrope very delicately and very well. But what's that sweet sauce of entertainment and social good? It's believing that people and humanity are inherently good. And they crave

nutritious food in their soul just as they do in their bodies. And the problem is that we've been feeding the public junk food for so long. We've begun to...

You get used to junk food. To think that that's how food should be. That's how food should taste. And so we've forgotten. I think we've forgotten. I mean, the purpose of storytelling was always to entertain, but there was always a moral message

in the storytelling. I mean, you go back and you, you know, you read these... Or a soul and, maybe not moral, but a soul-enriching message. Soul-enriching, well, yeah. For me, morality just is we're talking about life and we're able to gain something from it.

I think the misconception about what we do and what I do or what we're trying to do is that we're trying to serve people broccoli because it's good for you. And that's not exactly what we're trying to do. We're trying to say something. And I think that, I mean, there's so many stories that you have in your life

or I have in my life when you look, like, I couldn't have written that. or this thing just happened and like wow that would that's an that would be an incredible movie and that never gets made because life is the greatest storyteller like stories are everywhere and we want these types of stories but we don't want is to be um we don't want virtue signaling we don't want people to tell us how we should be so that we feel bad at the end of something if we're not that and we want to be like wrapped up in an adventure in a story in somebody's life we love drama. I mean, that's why you drive, you know, we're in LA right now. You drive down the 405 and there's like a

basic fender bender on the left side of the road and a police car and everybody stopped because they're just curious and they want to look. We love drama because we are dramatic. And so I think that the way to tell these stories is just to use real stories, real drama, real, like the storytelling principles that maybe you don't know where the story is going. Maybe there is something happening that is terrible or we're talking about a social issue or you know maybe there is as an example like maybe this is about a serial killer but is there a story about a serial killer where with a heart of gold not necessarily redemption would you cast me in that but you 100% serial killer with a heart of gold in fact I think we should guilty yeah but but but but maybe there's story about a serial

serial killer that you know maybe it's not about the serial killer sure there's murder in it and then there's something else happen it's just about thinking outside the box sure get out as the perfect example of a great horror film that also like hits social issues and jordan people's doing and there's so many there's so many amazing stories that are being told what we've decided to do is we want way fair at wayfar we want wayfar studios we want when you see the wayfair a logo when you see a wayfarer studios movie you know that it's going to be entertaining and at the end of it you're going to get something out of it yeah and we don't want to leave people feeling down or depressed about their life we want to leave people feeling hopeful we want to stir up some shit yeah

And then maybe there's a positive ending in some way, or a hopeful ending, or the protagonist learns something, and we can take that with them. I don't want to make movies that lead people down. We have the news. We have social media. We're living at a time where everybody is competing for attention.

We, like, everybody in the whole world is ADHD. Nobody can focus on anything. And we're getting more information sent to us and beam to us about the suffering and the hardships of others around the world than we ever have in human history. We're looking at the data. we're seeing young people are more depressed than they've ever been. Suicide rates are up.

And if you just look at everything, you're just like, wow, this world is terrible and it's ending and we're doomed. And yet, there are still amazing people and amazing stories. And in all of this crap, there's hope. That's how I think about Wayfair. That's how I think about the movies that we want to make. There's hope, and you can have all these other production companies

making these other stories. Because, you know what? Just like Doritos exist. Like, you need those things. Sometimes you just want a bag of Doritos. Sometimes you just want to Baskin Robbins ice cream And you don't care

I could go for some Doritos right about now And that's fine That stuff in moderation is okay It's when we're consuming A McDonald's Doritos diet That we get sick And it's just like in TV entertainment If we're consuming all of this shit

Then we get sick So we just want to be an antidote In a certain way And shine a little bit of light I love the way that you draw on the personal And let that inspire you And the storytelling that you want to do and with kind of with man enough the book the podcast the book for adolescents

adolescent boys um trying to redefine manhood the struggle with manhood which is your has been so much of your personal struggle i mean you've talked about a ton on the amazing podcast uh man enough and um i think we're going to do an episode drop swap or something like that which is going to be awesome and talk to us about how you had this personal odyssey of questioning and discovering what it is to be masculine in the modern world you're a husband you're a father you're an actor people are looking up to you you're playing kind of a sex symbol on a TV show and Jane the Virgin a lot of ways and how the podcast and book and TED talk came out of that and then how that leads to this ends with us and helping to try and center that conversation.

I mean, you throw some curveballs here. Soul boom, baby. Boom. You've been soul boomed. Soul boomed. I have been questioning what it means to be a man since I was a kid. And for many years, my father, who's been my role model, I had years of resenting him because he didn't live up to what I think society's more rigid definition of masculinity looked like.

What's strange is that if you actually look at my dad, he lived up and surpassed it. But as a young boy, I was looking at my dad and he didn't know how to build anything. He wasn't a handyman. He didn't have big hands and big muscles. He didn't have a beard. Guilty. I do have the beard, though. Yeah, you have a beer.

You know, he didn't fight or raise his voice and teach me. You know, he didn't discipline me and, you know, teach me how to fight. So these were all the things that as a young boy I was craving because I was being bullied by these more, you know, masculine kind of alpha kids. And so I resented him a lot for it. And as I got older, I realized I was so much like my dad in so many ways. I am really sensitive. I'm an empath. I feel everything.

I cry all the time. Movies and TV shows, sometimes commercials. And he taught me that that was okay. But I didn't know how to apply that into the real world because these weren't the things that people were drawn to. You know, single guy in my 20s, like, I'm sorry, but women weren't looking for that.

They weren't. There were so many times in my 20s where if I did meet a woman and I'd ask her a question or I'd make eye contact and I was polite or she'd be like, huh, I thought she were going to be different. I was like she was disappointed. Like I looked like an asshole, like the roles that I was playing. But I genuinely wanted to like know about her heart or to talk about things because I can't do small talk. And I so in my 20s I would like try on as I like call them the different math. of masculinity. Like, all right, like, all right. Let me just pretend to not give a shit about anything, you know. And I struggled. Like, I would meet somebody and maybe, you know, maybe I liked her,

but then it was like, oh, but don't text her. Can't text her. Why? So then I would, like, not text her. But those, like, two days, I had so much anxiety. I was like, but I want to tell her. Like, I have these feelings and they're meant to. And I was like, don't. And this is what it was like for when I met my wife. I was like trying to be maybe something I wasn't at first and not text her all the time or not caller,

but all I wanted to do was share my heart. And I just realized over the course of my 20s that none of that stuff was working for me. Like I would try to be other people wouldn't work. I couldn't be rude or mean to these women. I just, it wasn't authentic. And they could pick up on it not being authentic.

So I started questioning things. And when I met my wife, it was like a light bulb went off when I realized like, well, what if I'm just myself? What if I am just myself? And I share with her all the parts of me. And I talk about my insecurities and my vulnerabilities and these things.

And luckily, she didn't run away completely. There was a little bit of a rough time because, again, she was also used to a certain type of man because, again, we've all been conditioned in this society to both try to act like a certain type of man, or if you're on the other side, date or be with a certain type of man. And this is programming that's been happening since we were kids. You know, we've seen it in the news and the media.

It's been perpetuated. We always have this, like, unrealistic standard of who we're supposed to be as men. But it's even worse now. I mean, you're hearing about what so many men and women are experiencing in the dating community where there's these unrealistic expectations for men. So I got on this TV show, Jane the Virgin. I was playing a character very different than myself. Again, he was more masculine, he was rich, machismo,

he was a bit of a playboy. And at the same time, I am madly in love with my wife and she's pregnant. And I just start sharing on social media, Instagram, kind of like a diary. I start writing from the heart about things and long, long paragraphs, and I don't think anybody's going to read this shit.

And people started to read it. and ask for more. And I had this idea also. One of the original ideas with SoulPancake was also this show idea at the time that was getting men together and having conversations around masculinity. And that was not one that we ever made.

And eventually I went and I decided to make a show about men having a conversation because that had also never been modeled for me. My dad didn't have a lot of friends growing up. Intimate conversations. Intimate conversations. conversations. Conversations that you would only think that women have. That society would project that women have conversations about emotions and feelings. And I was like, well, what if we had that conversation? What if men had that conversation? And we modeled that so that other men could. And that led to TED Talk and, you know, there weren't a lot of at the time, you know, eight years ago, when a lot of men in privileged positions talking about these things. Did you get a lot of blowback?

Got a lot of blowback, especially after the TED Talk, because the TED Talk went very viral. Of course, they used the one part of the TED Talk where I used the word toxic. I don't say toxic masculinity, but I used the word toxic, and men felt like they were being attacked and all of the stuff.

But if you're being ashamed for being a man, we should be proud to be a man. And I am very proud, and I say it. And, you know, I talk about, I love being a man in the TED Talk. But we only, you know, it's the context collapse of the internet. YouTube and all of these things. You only take the one piece of it and if it goes against

what you believe in, then you can comment on it and tell the person how much of a asshole they are. Or that I'm only doing it for, you know, to get laid. I'm married. And so that just led to more questioning and more learning and talking to experts and therapists and doing my own healing work. And it's been central to everything that I do. Again, it goes back to like, if I'm given a platform, if anybody gives a shit about what I have to say, then I should say something that's worth listening to or that is authentic and sincere to me.

And frankly, I believe that... And there's a big population out there that does not agree with you on that. There's a big population out there that feels like actors, filmmakers, Hollywood types should just make... Shut up and stay in their land. Yeah.

Shut up and dribble. You know, just, you know, tell entertaining stories. and shut the fuck up and keep your opinions to yourself. Don't put any kind of like rich or deeper meaning underlying it. Yeah, and I know you get a lot of that too because you're passionate about the environment or you're passionate about something and you share.

Well, speaking of the environment, I just got back from Climate Week in New York and I was reading this wonderful article that was talking about how, I'm just going to say the term, toxic masculinity, has corrupted climate and the conversation around climate. Because when you think about it, the conversation is all like,

like, you know, only pussies drive electric cars. And diesel is tough and cool and coal and oil. And, you know, so it's the Marlboro Man. You think about like solar panels and plugging in your car and riding a bicycle. And, you know, and, you know, and this, this whole kind of like fusing of like a man and his truck. You know, I spent a lot of time out in Oregon, too. and like male identity and truck identity are very fused.

You could never convince one of those guys to drive a Prius for a heartbeat. No. So there is kind of this kind of like hyper male element about like, no one's gonna tell me what to do. I don't wanna have to change my ways and, you know, I'm gonna pollute the earth

and if you're a tree hugger, then you're just a pussy hippie. And that, it runs through, everything, doesn't it? It kind of runs through all of the conversations. I'm going to have a sip of my super masculine drink right now. That, I'm having mug envy. Compare the sizes here.

Yeah, it's all right. It's all right. That's, you just set this whole conversation back a hundred years. Sorry about that. With your huge, enormous brown sippy cup. 40 ounces. Your publisher just covered her face. but don't you feel like this

it has to do with militarism it has to do with nationalism it has to do with like COVID like getting vaccines and wearing masks so that maybe you're not spreading a disease to like a woman sitting next to you in an airplane who has a lung disease or something like that

like you know you're helping slow the spread a little bit like what can we do for community and to build bonds between people and and this the pushback is virulent and almost violent. Yeah.

It is. And yet, I try to understand it. Okay. What have you gleaned? I go out of my way to listen to

those men. I listen to the things they listen to. I try to consume what they consume. And my observation is that Morgan Wallen.

We're not that... That's what they listen to. We're not that different. Okay. I just genuinely believe we're not that different. I think if you get any one of those men who you're describing, some of which are my friends, and you put them and you have a conversation with no cameras,

I think we have far more in common than we all realize. I don't see anything wrong with the masculine truck or, you know, the needing to show one's masculinity. I understand it because I think that all of us do that in different ways. Where I think it gets very confusing is the conflation of masculinity and identity politics and turning politics into a conversation around masculinity and masculinity into a conversation around politics. And that's where it starts to get a little weird.

and I don't have, as Baha'is, we don't talk about who we vote for. We don't campaign for people. We don't have flags on our houses saying like, we're pro this or pro that. We always vote on the issue and we try to think about it from a spiritual perspective. Because the second we start to have those types of discourses,

there's no unity that can happen. It's either my side or your side. And there's no winning. And the system is set up in such a way that a bunch of people have to lose in order for a few to win. So I try to understand it, and I try to meet these men where they are, and I don't feel like they're that different than me. I go to the gym.

I want to grow my muscles. It was programmed into my DNA that a man has to look that way. I still, despite having talked about my muscle dysmorphia, which is me looking in the mirror, no matter how big my muscles are, I feel like they're not big enough, or there's something wrong with me, or I feel skinny. I've talked about this. I've worked on this in therapy. It's still in there because it's been programmed into me. And if we start to think about all of these men that exist in the world as brothers, right, the way that we were told to think about people, as brothers who have been

programmed to believe what they believe, then I believe we're able to have more empathy and compassion for them and realize that we're not that different because we have our same version. So, yeah, like, I get along very well with some of these men. I drive a truck. It's an electric truck. Me too. Another thing we've got in common. I remember when you brought in your lightning over to my house.

And I was like, oh, your truck's bigger than mine. Your sippy cup's bigger than my. My sippy cup, hey, what's it called? Sorry, did that threaten your masculinity? Yeah, that was it. I feel very threatened. So you're in this conversation and you read Colleen Who, it ends with us and what happens to you the conversation that I'm having on a daily basis is

how can how can men be safer places for themselves because there's a direct correlation to men feeling enough and being a safe place for themselves and the world being a safe place for everybody else and we know the data we know the stats we know between one and three and one and four women are sexually assaulted or victims of domestic violence. That is one in- Staggering. And in places like Texas and some places in the South, it is one in three.

So that's a lot. And this is not a woman's issue. It's tens of millions. We're talking about tens of millions of people, but this is not a women's issue. This is not something that women can fix. This is something that we have to fix behind closed doors ourselves.

And so man enough and our conference about masculinity is a way in to showing men. Not that we're bad, because the whole premise of my work with man enough is that men are good. I believe that men are good and I love being a man. I lead with that. I've never said toxic masculinity. Other people have labeled me a feminist. And then I had to look up what a feminist meant because I didn't even know.

I wasn't saying I'm a feminist, like, hey, woohoo. and then I subscribe to the notion that the definition of feminism is the radical notion that women are people. Okay, sure, then call me a feminist. Great, a woman is a person, and the by the faith we're told that humanity can be likened to a bird.

On one wing is female, and the other wing is male, and it's not until those wings are equivalent in strength that the bird can fly. Great, I believe all of these things. Now, how can we make the world safer for women by making the world safer for men. So my work is with men. My work is with men learning how to understand their feelings,

hold their feelings, have conversations with other men and learn how to be vulnerable, understand that we don't have to prove our masculinity at every given moment. And sometimes it is okay to be enough as we are, that we are allowed to feel that we should be emotional, that we are sensitive by nature, but we've drowned that out.

At a very early age, as Bell Hooks writes, and a will to change, Like we committed the first act of violence, which is called soul murder, as she writes it, where we essentially kill the parts of ourselves that allow ourselves to feel, and we become numb. And then we forget how to feel. So at 30 years old, when I went to therapy, and my therapist asked me to describe what I was feeling, I had no vocabulary. Right. I literally couldn't name a feeling.

Yeah. And I kept trying to skirt around it, and he kept sobbing me. I have the same thing in my therapist had. I've told this story before, but I'll tell it again. The therapist had like this color wheel of emotions. The wheel of feelings that you give to like three year olds. And so because like how it was so like what are you feeling? I don't know kind of stuck.

Yeah. Well, what does that mean? And you go like, you know, overwhelmed, flooded, enraged, fearful, like to get really, to parse it in really clearly about, because I also didn't learn that emotional vocabulary from my parents. So. But, but, and we're not unique. Mm-hmm.

And if we are on the artsy, creative, you know, liberal side in terms of just the way that we think about the world, and we don't know how to describe our feelings, then how is anybody else going to know how describe their feelings? This is not something that's taught to us men because we're taught not to feel. Why? Because when we feel, then other men can make fun of us, take advantage of us, climb over us, use that against us, and it becomes unsafe. So we're not safe with other men to feel. So a lot of this work is about learning how to feel and because I genuinely believe when us men can become safe spaces for ourselves, the world will be a safer place. So back to

Colleen Hoover and it ends with us. I was starting away for studios. My book agent, shout out to Johanna Castillo. She had sent me, it ends with us and she knew I was looking for movies that could say something that were commercial, that could take somebody on a ride. and and help and she sent me at ends with us and she said just trust me read it and i read it it wasn't a huge book at the time it was like a very very well known on good reads and it was a romance novel and i was blown away by the book and wrapped into the story and found myself confused found myself judging the protagonist lily why wouldn't she just leave this guy found myself at times wanting to be more like ryle because he was so confident and secure and

It was a very sexy book, and I was like, oh, you know, and I understood it then why she stayed, and I was just like back and forth, and I was just on this ride, and I went, wow, what if this could be a film? Because at the end of the movie, this character makes a really profound choice, a difficult and brave choice for herself

that's very hard to make, and she leaves this abusive relationship. And thousands of women left their abusive relationships after reading this book. And I thought if we could then make this movie, and we could create an experience where a woman could sit in that theater and maybe find the courage or the strength

or the safety to not go back home to that relationship, as complicated as it is, because it's not that simple, then we could, again, just like Zach's episode, that one person, if I could hear from that one person, then it was all worth it. Have you heard from that one person? I've heard from hundreds, if not thousands. And it's been worth it.

That's great. What next, where next lies your journey? I've put so much energy into climbing the career ladder and to being enough in this industry. And I realized, I think, over this last film, that there's never been a way for me to separate my desire to be enough and to fit in in this business with the projects that I make

because, of course, I made it ends with us and all these films for a very specific reason, but I also wanted people to think that was a good director or a good actor and I wanted my place in the industry. That's that's a meshed with all of it. And I think I've really learned over the course of the last two years that it really doesn't matter. And I've been able to, luckily, it's never 100% pure, but I've really had the great fortune of being able to see that what I thought I wanted isn't what I wanted and that I have everything that I want. And so my focus right now has been to really show up as a father and as a husband in ways that I wasn't before.

And it's little things that nobody cares about, but the things that mean a lot to my wife and my kids. And then trying to be a good friend, showing up for my friends in ways that I've had many show up for me recently, you being one of them. Everything outside of the world the public sees is what I'm focused on right now. And I am feeling so genuinely happy and joyful for the first time in a long time. Going to the fatherhood thing when I was raising Walter and he just turns 20 today. Oh, my God. Oh, happy birthday, Walter. Not even a teenager.

one of the things I made sure to try and do was to always share with him my struggles because I think that's one of the things that men leave out of the equation and they feel that as a father they need to have everything figured out. And so anytime I was really struggling with something or I was rejected or hitting an obstacle,

I was like, this is a golden opportunity. I would pull Walter aside and be like, hey, Walter, you know that movie? I was really excited to do and I audition and I got that part and I was going to go, you know, film it in Idaho or whatever. They just fired me from it. And I didn't even get to do it because they wanted a bigger name. And I feel so disappointed.

I feel less than. I feel really sad. I feel angry about it. I'm just really struggling right now. And if you see me down for the next several days, that's probably what I'm dealing with. To just to have him at 16 or 17, like hearing that and seeing like, oh, that's what it is to be man enough. It is. You talked about that on our podcast, and it really resonated with a lot of people.

And we do similar things. And for me, it came from my dad never doing that for me. I talk in Man Enough about my dad was emotional but not vulnerable. and the difference between the two is he would always cry and show his feelings and his emotions but he never shared with me his struggles yeah and so you doing that for walter and telling me about that years ago has really helped because i do that all the time now you know every time there's been a lot of challenges i've had over the last few years and getting a chance to share those with my kids makes a huge difference but here's what's really interesting oftentimes my kids will

come home. My daughter, Maya's nine and Maxwell is going to turn seven in a few weeks. You remember those days. They'll come home and they'll talk to me about the things they're dealing with and the feelings and the frustrations they have. And nine times out of ten, whatever I tell them about how to deal

with that situation is what I need to hear for myself. Ah. Because the situations are not that different. And until you're talking to a nine-year-old about... So-and-so's picking on me, so-and-so doesn't like me, I'm really frustrated. I tried to play. and then this person

and then this person wouldn't let me. Whatever the thing is, the process by which you explain the lesson or whatever it is in a way that they can understand, oftentimes I'm having a light bulb moment going like, oh, I need to do that better. And it's been really, really sweet.

And so yeah, so I do the same thing as you. I talk to them about my struggles. I talk to them about my feelings. I try to not hide when I'm really emotional. Right. That's been a big one, especially for my son. If I feel like I am not to cry. I make an effort to, I don't push it down.

I let it come out. Showing affection with Emily. Things that we didn't always see from our parents. And one of the other ones tangentially is to have a conflict with my wife, get in an argument in front of him. Not go take it in the other room, unless it's really superheated, have the argument, work through it,

apologize where one needs to. And then to turn to Walter and say, hey, did you see that? Like, I was really upset with mom about this, and I said this, and that hurt her feelings, and then she reacted, and I got even more mad. And then we were able to calm it down, and we talked about it.

I apologize for my part. Such a big gift you're giving him. To see that, oh, conflict can be voiced. Well, it's healthy. Healthy and anger can be voiced and healthy and productive. Anger doesn't have to be a destructive force. We're teaching him conflict resolution at a very early age. Resilience as well.

And resilience and also that you can still love somebody and be and disagree and repair and heal. And Emily and I do very similar things. And it's so healthy because these are not things that were ever modeled for us. And one thing we are not good at as humans at the moment is engaging in conflict and then repairing and still being in relation with that other person.

And learning to disagree, learning to disagree better, as Arthur Brooks says. But it's okay to disagree. And right now there's so much identity wrapped up in everything that a disagreement can feel like life or death or as if you as a person is wrong or there's a full judgment

and in reality like we need to disagree if there is no disagreement there is no progress it's the clash of differing opinions that the spark of truth is ignited as Abdul Bahas says right in our faith so teaching Walter

teaching Maxwell and Maya that mommy and I disagree sometimes but we love each other and then they see the container by which we disagree and then you move on in the repair and the kiss or however it is, that is so important for these kids because I don't believe Gen Z, millennials,

had ever had that modeled for them. So we're walking around in a world where people don't know how to disagree and still like each other, let alone love each other. And as it relates to work and career, I have some, you know, I'm really proud of the work

that Wayfair Studios has done. We just released a beautiful movie on Netflix called Will & Harper. And we have, other films coming out soon and we're in pre-production on others and we're developing a Pac-Man movie which I'm very excited about and an empire waste is just coming out there's a movie that that uh that Mr. Rain Wilson is in there you go playing my first like dad which by the way first dad role it's very funny because there was one point we were editing the wayfair studios

sizzle reel and I said you guys have to take rain out of all of the because you've been in a a number of our movies. Yeah. And you just showed up as different characters in our movies over there. It's very helpful to know people that run a movie studio.

But Ezra, we were very proud of Ezra that we made that you were in. But Empire Waste is a beautiful film. It's about body positivity. Look, we're focused on making films that say something.

And I'm really excited about that. Well, I applaud you for your amazing work. It's just been a pleasure to walk beside you all of these years. It's been a lot of long time now and to see the incredible thought-provoking conversations that you've sparked.

And to, you know, you put your money where your mouth is, you know, we started this conversation talking about service and just want to know if there's any last thoughts on that about how when you were in self-doubt, you turned to a service-oriented way of thinking and creating that took you out of yourself in a healthy and productive way both fed yourself and made the world a better place if i go back to the points of my life where i just felt the most unsure or the most alone or it was filled with the most self-doubt every time i made a choice that was rooted in the belief of something greater yeah um it all worked out and that choice isn't always the sexiest choice.

It's not always the popular choice. At the moment, it might look like going backwards. But every time I've done it, it's paid off. And at every point in my career, where I just wasn't sure, when I went back to why, I have this thing in Manitup where I talk about the why ladder, where you ask why three times.

Okay. And you get to the root of it by the third one. But I had to ask myself why I was doing this. Why did I want that show? Why do I want that? And generally what I found was all of my suffering, the feelings of not enoughness, the feeling of being alone,

the feeling of nobody understanding me, all of my baggage that I brought into all of my relationships and my work life, it was all coming. It was all suffering that I was choosing. that I was choosing to suffer. It was coming from the material world. It was coming from external validation.

It was coming from this idea of something. But when I went back in and said, well, what brings me joy? What lights me up? It always was about me being of service. It was giving something. It was making somebody else feel something with no regard for how it made me feel.

It just happened to make me feel great. Creating something that could help somebody else. the process help myself. My last days helped me with my fear of death. Help me feel alive. Strangely, when I was with somebody who was dying, but those people who were dying, I remember sitting with

them. They had so much more life than I did. So all of these things, every point in my life where I just wasn't sure when I went back to service and I was thinking outside of myself, it's like the pieces of the puzzle would just

work out and magic would happen. And to me, that's the cheat code to life. That's the code of the matrix. Dude, I've mentioned this before on this podcast because I have limited stories, but I got to go to Dharam Shala and meet the Dalai Lama

and I interviewed a Tibetan monk. And I said, what is the meaning of life? And he thought about it, and he said, it's service to others. Because when you do service to others, you heal yourself, you become happier, you become more whole, You get more filled with purpose and wellness,

and you're making the world a better place. And Arthur Brooks, who was on the trip with me, he always says, we all worship something. Everyone worships something. We're all wired to worship. We're all in service to something. Now, it can be ourselves. When we worship ourselves and serve ourselves

as contemporary Western culture kind of thinks is the right course of action, that has very limited. But when we're in service to something larger, that's when we truly find ourselves and find our voice. But I also want to say something about it ends with us. And I think one of the biggest problem I had with the movie was the tens of thousands of women seeing that movie and thinking that they could move to a big city and open a florist shop and somehow make a living at that. Yeah. And you really did women a big disservice with that.

No, it's, yeah, it's, you know, movies are complicated. They're complicated. Justin, thanks so much, man. It was, this is a pleasure. There's been a long time coming, and what a delight. So, was that our, do you do a, boom? The Soul Boom podcast, subscribe now on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever else you get your stupid podcasts.