Soul Boom - Mark Ruffalo on the Future of Humanity (Pt. 1)

Episode Date: October 9, 2025

Mark Ruffalo (AppleTV's Task, Marvel's Avengers) explores how America can find compassion in divided times, the dangers of political violence, and why activism must be rooted in empathy. Ruffalo reflects on losing his brother to gun violence, the climate crisis, and his journey with The Solutions Project, which uplifts frontline communities fighting for change. Together, they ask: how do we move beyond fear, rage, and dehumanization into a future of justice, unity, and imagination? Mark’s Organization 👉 https://thesolutionsproject.org THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS! ZipRecruiter (try it FREE!) 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ziprecruiter.com/soulboom⁠⁠ Quince (FREE shipping ) 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://quince.com/soulboom⁠⁠⁠ reMarkable (FREE returns for 100 days!) 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://remarkable.com⁠⁠ Superpower 👉 Go to Superpower.com to learn more and lock in the special $199 price while it lasts. Live up to your 100-Year potential. #superpowerpod Ollie 👉 Take the online quiz and introduce Ollie to your pet. Visit ollie.com/soulboom today for 60% off your first box of meals! #toknowthemistolovethem SOUL BOOM WORKBOOK 👉 (pre-order now!) ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⏯️ SUBSCRIBE!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠👕 MERCH OUT NOW! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠📩 SUBSTACK!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  FOLLOW US! IG: 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://instagram.com/soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://tiktok.com/@soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ CONTACT US! Sponsor Soul Boom: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠ Work with Soul Boom: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Send Fan Creations, Questions, Comments: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Executive Produced by: Kartik Chainani Executive Produced by: Ford Bowers, Samah Tokmachi Companion Arts Production Supervisor: Mike O'Brien Theme Music by: Marcos Moscat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The vision of America, the promise of America. We still have that. We have that promise in our DNA. Yeah. Someone slipped that in there, which creates a possibility for it, right? That's like the moment we're in right now. It's physics. Things have got to come to a point where there's so much movement.

Right. It's chaotic. It's chaotic. It's chaotic. Boom. Something new comes out of it. Water to steam. From my own personal losses, I've learned, there's always a gift inherent in it that connects us back to our original purpose.

Which is? It's me, Rain Wilson, and I want to dig into the human experience. I want to have conversations about a spiritual revolution. Let's get deep with our favorite thinkers, friends, and entertainers about life, meaning, and idiocy. Welcome to the Soul Boom podcast. Hi, Mark. Hi, Ray. Thanks.

Welcome to the Soul Boom podcast. I'm glad to be here. How's it going so far? Really fun. Well, I'm just going to bring it up, even though it's hard to bring up. Charlie Kirk was killed. Yeah, man. This is tearing the country apart in so many ways, and the country is being torn apart in so many different ways.

While I didn't agree with his ideas, shooting, someone that we disagree with, even if they're vociferous and loud and out there is so colossally wrongheaded. I spoke to a couple of, let's say, some liberal friends last night at an event. And they were like, you won't find me shedding any tears. And someone else was like, oh, well, there was a little bit of a kind of a good riddance thing. And it's like, guys, no. Yeah, I know. No. We cannot think or talk that way. at all. That is not okay. It's so dangerous, man. I mean, my first thought was, you know, also we had another school shooting. Yeah, which totally got buried in the headlines.

Yeah, got buried in the headlines. Of course it would, though. And listen, I'm someone who my brother was murdered. I mean, I lost my brother through gun violence, you know. And so this is a real personal topic for me. It's no winning. We'll never win this way. There's no idea that if we cheer on our opponents being hurt or harmed in any way, that we win as a society. And we all lose. Like those, I know what his family is going through. Like I understand that on such a personal level.

And it's a tragedy that. that not only the person who is killed experiences, but the entire family and community around that person. Like, this is no joke, you know. And so it does break my heart, even for someone that is not my political opponent who would probably call me an idiot. But I want to push back on you a little bit

for even using the word opponent. Like someone who disagrees with, who we disagree with, with, even vehemently, and we think they're sending the country in exactly the opposite wrong direction that goes against even Jesus' teachings himself. Like, how can we reframe it from opponent to, you know, just someone we disagree with? I don't know what the word is, exactly. Yeah.

Maybe that is the wrong word. But it's someone who's, you know, we might be on opposite, complete, if he allowed. opposite ends of the, but, but there's, this is the problem in the world. Like, where do we go when violence is the only solution? Yeah. Like, that's the final solution, that that ethos is, is what we're going to embrace. Yeah. Which is where we're at now.

I mean, people are walking around with weapons of war. This is a weapon of war. I mean, I don't know what killed him, but more often than not, we're being seen people killed with weapons of war that are nothing for nothing. It was a sniper rifle. Yeah, for nothing more than to kill human beings. That's what these weapons are for, you know? And so when we keep signing off on that as a nation,

we're signing off on more and more of when you keep signing off on those weapons being acceptable, you're actually tacitly signing off on them being used on human beings as the ultimate. ultimate solution to conflict, any kind of conflict. Ideological conflict. If that's why, we don't, I don't know why he was murdered. I'm assuming that's what it was. I don't know why. We don't know.

We see, you know, in Minnesota, we haven't been talking about those people who were murdered. Those are political assassinations, you know? This is like, now it's, we've had two in this year alone. It's terrifying. Because, first of all, it's lacking empathy, you know? It's like it's dehumanizing to us. And we see what the, like we see overseas. When you take away every other form of disagreement,

when you take away people's voices, when you take away their ability to express themselves to when you take away their, freedoms when you take away their rights when you, you know. Or even if you create an environment of fear where people feel fearful to express themselves, whether on the political right or the political left, like, oh, I can't go to college campuses now and speak. Yes.

My opinion. Yes. You know, right or wrong? Where does that head? Where is the final destination of that? Yeah. It's bloodshed. And it's, it's start.

I, my fear. for this is that it's starting a cycle on both the right and the left. That's my that scares me. Like Gandhi, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, you know, kind of continued cycle of violence. The solution being, the only solution left being violence. And that's, that's an ethos that I see being expressed, you know. It's, it's disturbing, it's sad.

It's like, it's just a lack of imagination on, on the, part of Americans that this is where we are, you know. Yeah, it's sad, man. Yeah. I feel for those people. Yeah. And his wife and kids were there. Oh, dude.

So all the people who are there to witness that? Yeah. It's scarred for life. And, yeah. And it's, yeah, it's. So you, you have done something that's pretty extraordinary. I've seen you online. You're still on the Twitter, right?

I don't look at it very much anymore. Oh, you're on the, threads now? I'm on threads. I'm on blue sky. I'm on Facebook. I'm mostly on IG probably now. Okay. I sort of have left Twitter. You were hardcore. Yeah, yeah. I've left there for the most part. I'll drop things there that I feel like, you know. You'll drop a little truth for name occasionally. Yeah. I expanded my Twitter account. I know, I love that. You know, and I was hot on your child. After you did that, I really did pull back. And I did say, you know, at the time I was working with someone who was helping with social media, I was like, hey, listen, Kim, let's stop Twitter.

It's just a junk. It's just a cesspool. Yeah. It's just become. And I'm not going to platform. You know, what also happens is when you're actually platforming because they're in your comments. So they're, like I call a co-tail. You get this, you get this side, this dark side of the internet and social media that starts

co-tailing on you. And they're using your platform to get their positions, points across. Interesting. They're just doing it in the comments. Of course. Yeah. And so they're piggybacking on your platform. Yeah.

And I saw that happen. It happened in IG for a long time. shut down my comments because I'm like, I'm not, you're not going to use my platform. No, it's true. It's true. Because I have noticed, I have noticed that, you know, because I speak a lot about climate change issues and climate change science. Yes. And I'm like, God, I am being followed. Oh, you. By tens of thousands of climate change science deniers waiting for me to post about it. Yes. So they can just like. Yeah, to just like, shut down, shut down. You don't know the science shows this. Shut them down. It's not real. It's a liberal conspiracy.

Shut them down because the people that you really are trying to reach, they're not in your comments section. Other than, you know. Yeah. And that's a good point. And you know what they do? They start to target your, they're targeting your followers. Right. They're bullying your followers.

If you look in those comments. Yeah. This is a play that is, and it's industry led. If you think for a second that there aren't troll farms that are, being paid by the fossil fuel industry to do that very thing, you're very naive. Well. I mean, and then it's a big, it's a big, it's a big industry. It's a huge industry.

How do you get a job at a troll farm? I don't know. What if a troll farm had actual trolls working at it? I think a lot of his AI now. I don't think, I don't know if it's actual troll farms. No, but I think you can get a guy in Bulgaria and pay him 27 bucks a day. Yeah, pay him, you know, $20 an hour. You know, they'll do anything.

And I do think that AI can take this over so easily now. Yeah. And they've proved it, you know. And it's just pooping out, like, industry talking points, spamming your comments with that, you know. They're very good at that. Yeah. They're very, very good. Yeah.

And so I've, you know, I've kept them open more lately because. My question was, like, you were one of the. You actors that has been able to kind of hold true to your values, whether it's about Gaza, war, climate change, Native American rights, are slide towards authoritarianism. You're somehow able to do this and, like, just keep working. And it's like you're kind of like Teflon Ruffalo. Like the stuff doesn't, for some reason, other people like get really pilloried in a way. Oh, I've been pilloried. But it doesn't feel like it's affected.

It hasn't affected the work for some reason. Yeah. I would say it's even gone in the opposite direction, honestly. First of all, I think as an artist, it just clarifies who you are morally. It makes you ask those questions about yourself, you know. It directly has to do with the work, I think. you also have to I think you have to become educated too

and you have to understand all the points of view which helps your acting you know I know all the talking points of the fossil fuel industry I know all the talking points of the chemical industry

I understand the economics of it I understand all of these things I'm very sympathetic to the other thing is be gentle on the people and hard on the problem, you know. So I'm very sympathetic to the workers who are in the fossil fuel industry who are like,

that's how they make their living. Like, okay, you're right, you know. We can't just abandon you. So let's, let's train you. Or a working class family that, you know, we're asking them to spend 10 or 15 grand more on an electric car. Yes. And that and that is a big fucking difference.

It's a big difference. If you've got a family making 50 grand a year. And so how do we create policy that addresses that? you know and how do we center on the keep centering on those people that that we don't get to hear from for me one thing that's been i have been what i just think is the best way to be an activist is to center on the people who are struggling on the front lines what we can do is lift their voices we can pull them into the spotlight that we have and once you do that or you bring in the scientists and you give them a place to to to you give them a place to to

to be heard that the media has drowned it out, that the media has kept them from being able to speak directly to the public, right? When you start giving those people voice, there's something inherently sympathetic about doing it in that approach. I'm not telling anybody, you know, I will go out and editorialize, but 99% of what I do is giving voice to the people on the front lines, because that's their experience. And it's undeniable.

So you're talking about the activists? The activists. The scientists. The people that have been hurt by policy. The people have been hurt. The victims of it. You know, the people who are organizing in their communities for the solutions. The Solutions Project is nothing more than a place for frontline communities to get funding and to get the kind of support, organizational support. they need to to survive and thrive and become viable.

Tell us about the Solutions Project. How did that come about? 13 years old now? Yeah. What are you doing with that? How does it work? It came out of our fight against fracking in New York State. And what it was was like, okay, yes, we need energy.

Like, that's the reality. Yeah. And these are jobs. A lot of it. That's the reality, okay? We're not going to deny that. reality. Let's face that reality. And so how do we move forward with the same amount of jobs? How do we move forward with getting the same amount of electricity, but do it in a renewable

energy fashion? So we reached out to Mark Jacobson, Professor Mark Jacobson from Stanford, who's the leading climate civil scientists there, and asked him to put together plans for every state in the United States, starting with New York, on how we transition to renewable energy, how many jobs it was going to create, how many lives it was going to save because we didn't have the pollution, what we needed in mixture, wind, water, sun to be able to make that transition and also address our energy needs. And so he went about doing that. Almost every graduate in Stanford was part, wanted to do this as their thesis project, work on this. So he made plans for every state.

He made plans for every country in the world. And those plans became, and they sat inside of Solutions Project at the time. And those plans are now what almost every country in the world is working off of for those numbers. Yeah. That's where it started. But then at some point, I was like, we only need to be existing until we can transition. And it was all about the just and. And accelerated transition to renewable energy.

That was the whole ethos of the solutions project. But at some point, I was like, we shouldn't be, we shouldn't be an organization that has to exist once we reach this goal. At the same time, we were working with frontline communities because they were having, they were coming up with the solutions. They were, they were on the front lines. They were the ones who were living this every single day. And so they had to, for their survival, come up with the solutions for climate change. water, how do we power our homes, how do we, you know, where are these front lines? They have the most on the line.

And those places happen to be led by mostly women of color. Hmm. And so we were bringing in grantees, our grantees, we were bringing them in to guide us. Nice. You know, what do you need? Mm-hmm. Tell us what you need. Yeah.

This came up during Black Lives Matter movement, you know? this need for equality and equality in philanthropy, which wasn't happening. And to listen to people on the ground. Listen to the people on the ground. Don't tell them from your ivory tower what they need. Which is the same ethos of my activism. Right. And then we came upon Gloria Walton, who is our CEO now.

And Gloria Walton came out of the Compton environmental movement. Right. because there's all the oil drilling right next to people's houses. And that's been redlined. Like those other front line communities are suffering the most from, will be suffering the most from climate change. There's no trees. It's all concretized.

It has drilling there. It has freeways with the pollution from fossil fuels, which is killing two million people a year. We don't even talk about that, just that alone. Asthma. Asthma. Asthma, heart disease, lung. disease, okay? And she had a vision. And her vision was, let's take whatever money we get

and put it back into these frontline communities and use our street cred that we've earned to uplift the voices of the people who are actually doing the work on the ground for nothing out of sheer love for their families and sheer love for their communities and sheer love for their communities and sheer love for living, being alive and not sick. And that's been our work. She's one of the most miraculous people I've ever met. And she came from that poverty. And she is the most just moral, you know.

And her thing was, and let's make it 80% black. and people of color, women that were funding and supporting. Which happens to be most of the organizations anyway. Yeah. And where can people find this organization? Solutionsproject.com. Dot org. And we're online.

And they're on socials as well? Yeah, social, IG, threads, Facebook. Every social media, we're there. We have a presence there. Look, guys, I know that hiring can sometimes feel impossible. I may just be a stupid actor, but I'm probably one of the most qualified ones when it comes to knowing how to manage an office. Get it? You put up a job listing and suddenly you're drowning in resumes from people whose only qualification is owns a smartphone.

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And you can try it for 100 days risk-free. And if it's not for you, just send it back. Get your paper tablet at remarkable.com today. There's this whole kind of like shut up and dribble, you know, thing of like, you know, black NBA stars should just play basketball and actors should just go play the Hulk. come on, cash your paycheck, rich boy. Yeah. And so many actors that I know are terrified to speak up about anything.

Yeah, I know. Even like climate change because like 27% of the United States thinks it's a liberal hoax and they won't even speak up about like, you know, solar panels or something like that. And they're so so scared to do it. I've asked. I have too. I know you have. It's astonishing. It's astonishing. What makes you so fearless in speaking out? Because, you know, you've been lucky. It hasn't, like, come back to bite you and you're still getting roles and have a great career and stuff like that. But what's your take there on being an activist?

For one thing, I think you can do it without a ruffling. I mean, there's the version of it, the very low-level version of supporting, like, local solar communities. But I also think. But you speak up on a lot of issues. Oh, I do. I do. And people hate me. I mean, there's people that, you know. How do you deal with that? Does that hurt you?

Does it scare you? It hurts me. I mean, it hurts to be called. It's like, it's like the worst thing in the world to be called or like a racist. Like those are the two things that are like, oh, God. You know, that's what you don't. You know, we were raised on the Holocaust. Yeah.

Like, that's like the worst thing that's ever happened. You know, these Holocaust. It's either the genocide of the American Indians. But the Jewish holocaust and the Nazis is like the worst. Yeah. And to be somehow equated with that is like the most painful thing, you know? It hurts. A lot of people in the political, right, I've been hearing saying like that, it hurts to be called a Nazi.

Yes, it does. Because Nazis oversaw the killing not only of six million Jews, but millions of gays and Leninists, communists, and priests, gypsies. Yes. You name it. Everybody. Anyone who wasn't white. This kind of mass extermination of those we hate.

Yes. A lot of people in the political right really resent being kind of lumped in with. Well, yeah. I hear that. So, yeah. But Jerry Sandefold just the other day said, hey, if you're pro-Gaza, just say you hate Jews. Just say you hate Jews.

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's really. And that's what it's come down to? I mean, yeah, so that's painful. Arthur Brooks, who's been on the show and is a dear friend, and I always quote him in this one, it's very simple thing that he says, he's like, we just need to learn how to disagree better. I know. We're really bad at disagreeing. I know.

The rhetoric is so fiery right now. Yes, because it's not just enough to disagree, but then there has to be, you know, what do we do? The problem is, it's not that we disagree, it's how do we solve the problem and are we going to solve it? And how willing, how far do you want to take fighting the problems being solved? That's where the problem is. Not in how we agree or disagree, but how we're going to solve the problems. And that's where things get really caught up. But doesn't social media have a lot to do with that where it's all talking about problems

and not solving problems? I think so. Because it's all just people throwing kerosene and matches around online. But who's getting off of their keyboards, putting their keyboards aside, and tromping out into whatever community or whatever cause they feel passionate about

and doing work? Probably a lot more now than ever before. I feel that way. Okay. I mean, I see it. I see it, you know, I've seen people in protest that I would never, you know, I would beg to say,

I'm seeing people do things. stuff now that I would have begged them to do five, ten years ago that they're jumping in willingly to do. I do see, you know, I do feel like with every, every difficult thing we're given, there's also an inherent gift buried somewhere inside of it. And this difficult time we're living in where, where we're wondering, like, do these institutions actually work for us? I mean, even the populist movement is about institutions that aren't working for us. Even the whole Trump ethos of MAGA is about institutions that aren't working for us. Now, who us is is the big question.

That's where things get dicey. But I think essentially the ethos of the world right now is this system is not sustainable for the rest of us. Who is the rest of us? That's what's being discussed. ultimately. How do we solve that problem is the question, right? So it's being, it's being discussed. Now, you have a chance now to either become totally cynical and say, we're going to, we're going to deport everyone who doesn't look like us. We're going to create a nation that is just for whites only, or we're on that extreme. Or you have a chance to like say, well, what do we do to make life

better for everybody? We certainly have enough. I mean, we just created the most number of billionaires in the history of the world, you know, we have enough. We could do this. But it's going to take some imagination, reimagining of what America is, what our economic system is. Because what's clear is it's not working and it's not sustainable. I think that does boil down to that vision of the United States because there recently was some senator from Missouri talking about like this is a Christian nation.

Yeah. You know, this is a white Christian nation. We took it from the natives because God wanted us to be here. And it's, you know, it's going back to philosophies from 150 years ago. And actually, when our founding fathers set this up, they had the national motto of, you know, epluribus unum out of many ones. Yes. And we've never achieved that. No.

There's a long time we didn't even vaguely even strive for that. But we can still strive for e pluribus unum. That's still in our vision. That's still in our DNA. that's what Obama was talking about, the vision of America, the promise of America. We still have that. We have that promise in our DNA. It was it.

Someone slipped that in there, which creates a possibility for it, right? That's like the moment we're in right now. Like we need, things have got to, it's physics. Things have got to come to a point where there's so much movement that water to steam. there's so much movement. It's chaotic. It's chaotic. Boom.

Something new comes out of it, you know? There's no other way to actually change than that. And that's painful. It's like giving birth. I mean, birth is painful. It's dark. We don't know. It's scary.

Will it ever end, you know? And I mean, this might be an optimistic take because I'm heartbroken all the time. I'm like literally heartbroken these days. I have such grief about where we are and what we're experiencing and what people are feeling and saying and how we're acting in the world. So I'm not being Pollyanna about it. I'm just saying that my belief from, and I know this is part of your show, is like from my own personal losses,

I've learned that in every loss of a loved one, of a illness, of, you know, a political loss, there's always a gift inherent in it. That's the grace that God gives us as human beings, that we get to grow and we get to have a treasure of experience that is part of our purpose for being here. right? And so that's what I'm taking. That's what I'm holding on to within all this and my grief is that birth is painful. Birth pangs. Your birth pangs. Of a new kind of civilization. Yes. Where we can get along in unity and have something like world peace. I talk about this in

soul boom, how people roll their eyes when they hear the words world peace. They even love and unity, people roll their eyes. Yes. Like, yeah, but the other side, always the saying is doing, I'll go by another of that. No, they want the same. I, my belief,

and I drive by a home, I say to myself, there's love in that house somewhere. Somewhere in that house, there's people who love each other. Whatever their version of that is. There is love there. There's love there.

You know? And if there is love there, then there can be love. And so many of these shrill, hate-filled voices are such a, they're such a minority. They really are. Just go to go to Missouri.

Kansas and knock on a door or Oregon or wherever you want. And like, there's loving families that, you know, this is like 5% on both sides that are, that are shouting and shaming. And, but that's not America. It's really not. It's not. It's not my, I've been all over America, you know, as an actor.

I've gotten, you know, the beautiful thing about an actor is you're invited into people's lot. You're playing, you know, I'm playing, I'm in Parkersburg, West Virginia. you know? I'm on like the ground zero of the PFS forever chemicals thing, you know. And I'm talking to the families who I know we don't have the same, we don't probably vote the same way. But we understand what those chemicals did to people. And they say to me, come in. Come talk.

I want to tell you my story. And so the thing about acting is, is we are invited into worlds that we would never, most people never have a chance to experience. were brought into them. Yeah. Yeah. You know? And they want to tell us their stories because people want their stories to be heard, you know? Right.

And so that's another great gift of acting. Like, is we get to know people. We get to know the world. And if we're, if we're, you know, doing a certain kind of thing, we get to know the world. It becomes like, almost like a journalism, a living journalism, you know? So you got a new show out called task. That's right. Tell.

I didn't watch it. I'm sorry. Okay. I didn't. I've been promoting this film. It was literally on one night. I mean, I don't think it's... There's one episode out there.

Yeah, yeah. What is... Tell me about TAS. The good thing about HBO. And my dad's like, I'm not going to watch it until they're all out because I don't like this piecemeal shit. I'm sorry.

He's a binge watcher. Yeah, yeah. He's like, I want to watch it all at one time. I don't want to wait. I don't want, you know. And so there's people who watch like that. So, task is like, it's like, it's like a, classic cops and robbers show.

I play an FBI agent who's an ex-priest who's dealing with some serious family loss. And he's not, he doesn't, he's pretty heavily front-loaded with quite a bit of adversity to start off with. But he's put onto this job of finding a kidnapped kid and these, these, someone's hitting drug houses. and stealing from the drug dealers, which for the most part, law enforcement doesn't really care. We saw the wire that worked out well. It's like, good, that's what they have coming. But then there's a kidnap kid and the whole thing changes. It delivers on the cops and all of that.

Yeah, it's a thriller. It's a criminal thriller. It has all that. But what really also has is just like it's really talking about like our families and what it is to be. a working class American in most of the country, what we're dealing with, what were, you know, faith, forgiveness, revenge, hatred. It's, it has all of that, those big things that are so juicy and are moving to you, but it just totally delivers on the genre, which is like an art form in itself that Brad Inglesby is able to do through Jeremiah Zager, our director, and Sally

Richardson, our other director. Beautiful. Yeah. And Tom Pelfrey, the whole cast is incredible, but Tom Pelfare is like, this is a star turn for him. He's amazing in it. Wow. That's great.

Yeah, it's great. What is the task? Find the kid? Is that the task? Yeah. Or heal thyself? Is that the task? Yeah.

It's what it is to be. like, what are we doing here? What's the task of being a human being, I think? Like, what are we doing here? But it is everything. You know, what's our daily task? What's our, what's our overall task? What's the task of our job?

And what's the task of us being in a family? And like, as a father, what's my task as a father? What's my, it's really well-named? You've balanced doing kind of, I guess you'd call it activist acting, spotlight, dark waters. And then you've done just fun. genre stuff and out there stuff. How do you make those decisions about like, you know,

how much kind of social good does a story you're telling need to have? And plus you played the Hulk for 10 years. So, you know, which is fun. I just love acting and I love all the different versions of it, you know? And I'll have like, oh, God, it's been doing so much heavy stuff. I'll just do something that's light. And, you know, lately I've been like, oh, let's play some, like, I don't want, it's boring just to play the good guy all the time.

Let's play some bad guys. Let's play some assholes. Let's play some, you know. I wish I was doing more comedy because I love doing that. You're very funny. Mickey 19. Yeah, that's the comedic. The other one, the Emma Stone.

Oh, yeah, poor things. Yeah, poor things. Those are fun. Yeah. It was great to see you. Almost doing farce. Yeah, it was farce. Yeah.

I mean, that's where it was that training from school. Yeah. Like, oh, I know what this style is. Yes, it's a whole year. I know what the style is. You know, thank God I had that. Thank God I had that one course. So we're going to, oh, we're going to do farce style today.

And we're going to explore the farcical style. And I got to experience that and see people doing it. And so I knew how to do it when it came along. Now, can we just talk about the Incredible Hulk's pants? Like, what's the deal there? I mean, it really has been something that bugged me. Ever since I saw the original, you know, Loufory. Yeah, like, what's what the pants?

Like, how did it stick? Why can't it just? Just have a giant green cock. What if it's, I think they're more afraid of it being just tiny. Oh. Nah. No, it's Hulk. Yeah.

He uses it as a weapon. He's like an elephant trunk. You know, just like, like, let it. Let's get real here. Yeah. Because it's a kid show. It's a kid's movie. Come on.

How did you guys solve the Hulk's pants? Stretchy pants? I asked. I asked. I was like, so they're like, he's a scientist. He created a stretchy pants. Why didn't he market those? Why are those not available?

Armor. Under Armour sponsor. Under Armour. He's wearing under armor, man. Under Armour are. What are those called the Kim Kardashian one? The spanks and slanks and slanks and slants. Skims.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's all it. That was all Bruce Banner Tech that was adopted by the world. You can grow and you can shrink in it. It's like literally let you gain 20 pounds and still look good. I gained 20 pounds over like the last nine months.

Every like Thanksgiving, I'm just like. Yeah. How do you lose the weight? I have a peloton. I've been bike biking because because. Actual biking or? Yeah, I've been doing cycling like like like, like, trail. I hate that. Do you buy, do you buy, like, you know, $127 shorts that you need? Like,

can you just wear regular shorts, bicyclists? You need the panning and the booty area. They built that in there. But $120 is insane. You can get him for cheaper. I, I, you know, there's two things. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, is better for my knees and my hips, you know? Like, I'm starting to get to the age now. We're, like, pounding it out of, you know, running is not feeling so good anymore. I can't go jogging anymore. I can't.

I can't. So I took up cycling. And I love it, man. I am so into, first of all, Peloton, Allie Love on Palaton is she's the best. Okay. You know? Shout out. The coaches on Peloton are, and the actual.

train. If you do the training is, I've actually was like, I will never do this. But I have, I've been doing it. I started over COVID. So like, I am just turning into a puffy, puffball, ball blob right now. Yeah. And I'm not going to, like, I'm finally at a place like where I could maybe start to enjoy my life. And I'm going to, what, I'm going to be ill for it? Yeah. Fuck that. Yeah. I want to be healthy. My doctor's coming in. I have a safe. Fatty liver. Isn't that sad? Yeah.

Well, most Americans. It's fat in my liver. Most Americans do. I don't even drink. Yeah, I don't either. She eats sandwiches. Too many sandwiches instead of salads. Sandwiches are good, man.

I was in Philly. I put on like 20 pounds during that show. Oh. I was just eating Philly. That'll do it. All those Philly sandwiches, man. No one does sandwich better, man. Yeah.

Pasta, all the pasta. Aye, aye, aye. So I go to the doctor the other day to get some labs done. And as she looks up from the results, she says, oh, it looks fine. Drink more water, eat less carbs, be less grumpy. Now, that's not medical advice. That's just bullying.

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I promise this isn't self-help. This is soul help. Order your copy today. Click on the link below to buy. You know, when I was, going over your bio, I was struck by how much stuff we have in common. Now, that's true. Forgive me, I'm not an Oscar-nominated star of Marvel and other pieces of art someday.

You will be. But there's a shit ton we've got in common. Yes. You spent most of the 90s just doing theater. I spent most in the 90s doing theater. Yes. In L.A. I was in L.A.

doing a lot of theater there. That's the thankless task, man. I mean, that was like the voice. But I had to say in the 90s, the theater in L.A. was so vibrant because there was this incredible experimental theater scene happening. Oh. And we had all those, we had theater row. So it wasn't people just putting on like, you know, true west or fooling love so that they could get an agent and take their shirts off? No, no, no.

It was like Justin Tanner and Michael Sargent and like there was just all of these. Tim Robbins had that theater company. Yeah, yeah. And there was all of these, there was just these, there was, Padua Hills was happening. And that was just experimental playwrights, you know. And it was vibrant and alive, the theater scene there. And I have to say, when I went to New York, I was like, eh. Really?

We're doing just this good shit back there. Just nobody comes to see it, you know? Yeah. But it was, you know, we could do. a $2,000 production, man. Yeah. Of Miss Alliance or of Long Day's Journey and Tonight. Just theaters in the Valley.

You can rent for 150 bucks or something. We could do that. So we were doing, we did 30 plays in like five, 10 years, in 12 years. Yeah. 30 plays, you know. And we were like full productions. And we got to play all the parts. And parts that if I went, if I went to New York, I never in a million years would have gotten to do that much work.

Yeah. know. Yeah. And that was a gift. That was like a huge gift. The whole reason I went to L.A. was to try and get a TV show so that I could come back to New York and play lead parts. Exactly. Because if you weren't ever on TV, you weren't ever cast in those lead roles in New York. Never. The door was closed. Totally closed. Yeah. Talk about coming from. If you were an L.A. theater actor, I had to take my credit credits off, my theater credits off of my resume in L.A. because when casting directors saw them and I had done that much L.A. theater, they were immediately like, loser. Right.

So much judgment around that. Oh, my God. They would never come to the play. Yeah. Yeah. But, come on. There's a lot of bad theater in L.A. There was so much bad.

Well, there were the showcase. There was the showcase theater, which sucked. Which is, I'm going to do a play and invite the agents. And it was, it was just, it was just, it was so pure. Purely what it was was I'm not doing this because I love this play or I love acting. I'm doing this to showcase my talent for, you know, agents. And so theater and L.A. got such a bad rap. Yeah.

Because that wasn't where it was happening. The interesting thing that happened for me in New York was like I started out for some reason. I just did a ton of Shakespeare. Like, I was good at Shakespeare because I was articulate and I could use big words. And you have a great voice. And I have a decent voice and I'm tall and I can like gesticulate and kind of makes anyone who can just like make sense of it. Like you can talk for like three minutes and in either pros or that's a gift.

Or couplets. Like you just get cast. You're like, oh, thank God. He could just, I can understand what he's saying. Yes. So I had a lot of Shakespeare on my resume that I had to take off because when casting people in New York saw the Shakespeare. Yes.

They're like, loser. He's a regional theater. Shakespeare. I know. Summerstock guy. How crazy is that? And in London, you do Shakespeare. He does Shakespeare.

Let's give him the lead in this film. He just did a bunch of Shakespeare. True. And it's this weird thing. Cultural. Yeah. It's weird. Cultural bias around that.

Even on such small levels, you know, between cities where there were film and television. So you did, This is Our Youth at second stage. Yes. I saw you in 1996. Right. And the only way I could get in was to usher. I was an usher. You don't.

Handing out programs with my wife to go see you perform. And I stood in the back. Was that at the Intar? Or was that when we moved it to the, when we were on Broadway, we were on. It was the Upper West Side. Oh, okay. Right. Yes.

So that was the second run. That was the Park Rosenberg. Rosenthal. Okay. I don't remember. Not Josh Hamilton. Yeah. It was, yes, it was like Josh.

It was? Yeah, okay. You were amazing. And that was kind of the thing that broke you. You got some amazing reviews. Totally. Changed everything. But it was like, I, this sounds so corny and forgive me, but it was kind of like a star is born.

I was just like, holy shit, who the fuck is this guy? Because you had this like rich inner life and it was so mercurial and there was so much going on. And it was fun. and you were funny as fuck, too. And you couldn't take your eyes off you on the stage. It was absolutely riveting. Thank you. I want to talk about your acting training that gets you to be able to play that role in that way at that time.

Yeah. The creative impulse and storytelling and the making of theater. Yeah. The creation of characters. Like, how does that all coalesce? What brought you to that kind of breakthrough performance? Well, I had the, thank you, man. that warms, I mean, that's the nicest compliment.

More on the actors. Who's the guy, the James James Lipton? Dim. On the actors, your performance was super diligent. I don't think he's ever saw me in anything, but. Yeah. So I studied with Stella, I went to Stella Adler, and my teacher there who received, who was my, who interviewed me was Joanne Linville.

And she was a Romulan commander. she was she was a huge TV star and when I walked in okay wait yes what she played a romulan yes she played I thought you were speaking metaphorically she ran her acting class like a romulan commander I was like wait what she was on the next generation or so like that she was no she was in the original star star track she was the one that spock fell in love with the only one who spock ever fell in love with No way. That's amazing. But she also did all, she did Twilight Zone.

She was in Theater 30. She was in the Mercury Players, John Housman's production. She studied with Lee Strasbourg. She studied with Stella Adler. She was the bridge between the, you know, Strasbourg and Adler. She was an exceptional actor. and an extremely exceptional teacher. And I got to see that.

I got to see someone who had this incredible inner life. Like, it was, you could watch her do anything, you know? And her imagination, and it was all about imagination. And it was all about inner life. And it was tedious work. I mean, you couldn't walk in that door. You couldn't get to the words until you walked in and she literally saw the place that you were walking into through your imagination because you were experiencing it because and it was purely on a feeling level. And it's that thing that can't be spoken, you know?

It's what you're talking about. It's that inner life. It's that it's that understanding of circumstance. and care, and having that be so deeply full inside of you, that the audience is experiencing not just the words. She would tell us, it's not the words. And Stella would be like, it's not about the words, darling. Throw the words away.

Anyone can say the words. You fall in love with a line reading, darling. You know? That's awesome. That was my training. Yeah. Between her and Stella. became about the place, living on, being able to live off a place to be, to be, to walk

onto a stage, but walk into a room. Was it, was it, was it, was it was, there was body work too? Was there was, there was, there was, there was, there was, there was, there was, there was, there was, so I went to a conservatory. So I had, you know, body movement and voice production, speech and acting and, and, you know, fencing and, you know, singing and dance. the whole, I had the whole thing, and all of that fed into it, you know, physical character work, you know, clowning. I was doing all of that, and it was all feeding into it, you know.

So, but it really was about the character and the character's experience. And then, so then, so I was doing that. I did that for seven years, man. I was, I was, because I couldn't get a job as an actor. I was, I was landscape, doing landscape, painting, house painting. construction, you know, telemarketing, busboy, barback, bartender. You know, I had probably like 50 jobs. I got to interject. And that's another thing we have in common because I spent the 90s. I drove a moving van.

I did catering. I sold sandwiches out of a basket door to door in midtown. We had a dog walking service. Like the number of shitty jobs that I had is just, it's staggering. And it's, it's crazy. And it makes, it makes. you. Well, what it makes you is like, I'm not going to fucking do this anymore.

I mean, because I do think that for both of us, I didn't have any help from my parents. I didn't have trust on. Nothing. So I had to just, I couldn't even get like three. Hey, I'm short. I need 300 bucks. I couldn't even get 300 bucks. My parents were broke.

They were dead broke. So I had to work my ass off to pay rent. And then in order to try and make it as an actor, like, I'm not going to do that fucking again. Never. I'm not going to, you know, be able. bus boy anymore and get like grease on me all day long like stay up till 3 a.m. washing them the mats in the dishwasher station like in the alley like I want to act and get paid to fucking act. Yes. And I have no other choice. Like this is it. It creates a drive in you like nothing

else. Yes, it does. You know, it's a work. And there's a lot of trust fund kids out there who want to be actors and their parents have bought them a condo. And their needs are kind of taken care of. And what does that do to you? Is an art. I mean, how do you tell the story of a working class people unless you're a working class person? You know, like, how do you know unless you know? Yeah. And like, what are we losing? Like, I see, what are we losing when we shut the door on those people?

And they don't have access to it. Yeah. It's like all these acting schools are closing. They're, they're, we're not doing art in, in, in, in middle America anymore. Like how are we going to get those voices if we don't, if we, if they're not the people who are coming up, you know, how can they understand it? We're, we're missing this huge swath of American society now. So that was my, that was my, you know, that was my, and then I, and then we were just doing plays all the time. Like I started, I was like, hey, you started a theater company.

Yeah. I was like, listen. Let's put on a show. Yeah. We have this space here. Can we, can we use it on the off hours when the school's not in class? class? Can we, you know? Sure. So we were doing play after play after play after play. And it was students. We were making art, we were doing it ourselves. And then there was playwrights coming

out of it. You know, Timothy McNeil, who's just a great L.A. playwright that they don't know in New York, but he's a top playwright. Gifted. And that was happening everywhere. And we were, and we were directing each other. And we were doing the lights and we were making costumes. And we were, we were doing it. Yeah. That was a great place. And watching each other's work. That was my other thing my teacher said. You, when you're sitting out here, you're working just as hard as these people on this stage.

Like to this day, I cannot watch anything without working. I'm watching it. I'm, I'm what, you know, what's happening, what's going. And in my work, I'm like, that is not full. That needs more. You know, that was not, you know, I, I can't. Yeah. But I'm, but it was.

Yeah, they miss. I see that a lot. A lot of missed opportunity. Yeah. Oh, there's more they could have done there. Oh, that choice. That could have had such a deep, yeah, right? And that's us working.

That's how we work, you know? That's who we were taught to work that way. And so we had that going on, you know. So how do you meet Kenneth Lonergan and get to this as our youth? It was the craziest thing. My friend Riapavia, who was a casting director's assistant, called me. And she said, listen, they're doing a one-act play for this play festival here. It's mostly stars.

Kenneth Loner, there's this one act they want to hear red, but they're not going to cast us in it. I'm going to read one part. I think you'd be great for the other, but they're not going to cast us in it. They're looking for stars. Just you know, yeah, yeah. Yes, but the director and the writer want to hear it read out loud, would you do it? I was like, Rhea, I have to stand up for myself at some point. And if I just keep doing these things without making a demand that I get a chance, I'm not going to, I can't, I'm sorry, I'm not doing it. No, I'm not doing it. Click. And literally like 10 minutes later, I'm like, just.

What was it? Was it ensemble studio theater? What was it? No, it was, it was Ed Harris's place, the Met Theater in L.A. Okay. Oh, okay. Okay. So it was Holly Hunter and Ed Harris. It was the, it was the, it was the, it was the, it was the, premier cool theater in L.A. And they were doing a one-act festival. And so I read it with Ria for Kenny and Frank Leahzi, who is the director. And they were laughing the whole time. And Kenny was just like said to Rear to Reza Brayman Garcia, who was the biggest casting director at the time who was casting this thing. She was in the room.

They were laughing. He's like, I don't know. I thought they were really good. Why can't we just use... I don't know. I thought they were really good. Why can't we just use them? And I was just like...

Did you hear him say that? Yeah. I was like, I don't know. I thought they were really good. Why can't we just use them? And Frank's... Franks... Frank Plains like, yeah, they were fucking...

They're great. Why do we use them? And that was it. And that was like this... It was a one-act version of this is our youth. Oh, wow. It was like... two scenes.

And it hit so big time here in L.A. And Kenny and I started a friendship there. And so he asked me to, so he knew I was doing all this theater. He asked me to come out to New York and direct some one acts for a thing that Naked Angels was doing. And maybe, and maybe do, you know, read a one, do a one act. So I was like, yeah, he's like, you can stay at my place. So I did a one act. I directed a one-act version of Rob Marl and Sarah Batusick in a scene from You Can Count on Me.

Wow. It all comes around. And you were crashing on his couch. Yes. I was in his little tiny guest house. I made guest room. And I did a scene from, I did the play. You can count on me.

I mean, this is our youth. but while I was there he's like we're doing a full-length version of the you know betrayed by everyone that was the name of the one act that I did but which was this is our youth we're doing a one act we're doing a full-like version of it and I was like I want to audition he's like no we're going the kids are the real age we're not gonna we're not casting

people your age or too old I was like what you send me audition because the characters are like 17 yeah I was like Kenny that's gonna be like asking it fish about water, man. They're not going to be 17-year-old's not going to get the humor of this thing. It's just not going to happen. There's no way. You're not, and I was like, just let me, I'm here.

Let me audition. He's like, all right, Mark Brokaw, rest in peace. He just passed away. He was a, he, he, uh, Kenny, Kenny made him let me audition. You could see he was not into it. And so I left. I went back to L.A. And like three months, two months later, I got a call.

I was like, listen, we couldn't find a 17-year-old. Would you come out? do it. And I was like, I'll be there tomorrow. Absolutely. Yeah. And I came. That was my first play in New York. It was just became this, this, this off-Broadway hit, you know? And that was, that became my relationship to Kenny. And then you could count on me. It was like four years, five years later. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful film. I love that film so beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. That's probably the I mean, those are very, those are special times, you know. Do you see a parallel between your kind of mystical spiritual education and the making of art.

Absolutely. Storytelling. Well, you know, so Stella Adler came, you know, Stella Adler was a, she's from the Yiddish theater. I mean, she, they were the lefties that created the, they created the union movement here, you know, waiting for lefty created the international, I mean, the national strike movement here in the United States and the 30s.

Those were agip, they were, they were, they were the intelligence. of the theater scene and the art scene in America. And that was deeply based in like Talmudic tradition of, of, and so, so Stella was like, you have a, first of all, the theater, you should have to pay to go to church, and the theater should be free, because that's what you learned to be a human being. That's where you learned what spirituality was. That's where you learned, you know, what humanity is,

what it means to be a human being. That's the real church. That's the church. And that was her ethos. That was her belief. So in the very essence of my training, the DNA of it, had that worldview and approach to the work. And the playwrights were kind of like these modern prophets who were telling us, instructing us on here. humanity, which I find to be deeply, even if it's an agnostic playwright, to be deeply human and in some sense spiritual, because we're talking about humanity, you know?

Right, right. And that dialectic, and so. I wonder if that kind of ancient Talmudic tradition of Takun alam to heal the world. Yes, the Kahnoy. came through the theater work and the theater practice. Absolutely. Absolutely it did. And Strasbourg was using it. And Bobby Lewis was healed. How do we heal and uplift and galvanize and inspire and move to action through storytelling? Yes. And that's where Marlon Brando got his political activism from.

That's where Warren Beatty got his political activism from the entire 70s film ethos was what. was fed by the group theater, which was fed by the Yiddish theater. It's a tradition that comes from the Greeks, she said. You know, it was, it was, it was the voice of God manifested in mankind through this blood relationship that moved through us from the Greek. She'd say, you're part of a 5,000-year-old tradition. Your aristocracy. Act like it.

That's amazing. You have a responsibility. Yeah. to humanity, to people, to the culture. Know it, darling. Stand up straight. Treat yourself with respect. That's amazing.

That's amazing, dude. No one talks like that. Yeah. That's amazing. I always talk about how people talk about the office and like it's this kind of standalone thing. But I view it the same way. Totally.

In studying clown, you know, there's, you know, there's Aristophanines and there's the Greek comedies and the frogs and whatnot. And then there's Roman comedies and farses. And then there's Comedia del Arte, which is hundreds of years of traveling. That's where the word slapstick comes from. That's, you know, these lot characters, clowns. Yes.

All those starfather, the young lovers. All those archetypal characters. And then Shakespeare and Moliere just take them from Comedia. 100%. And take these kind of classic other plays and stick a bunch of clowns in them. And the tradition continues into British, vaudeville into American vaudeville. Yes. And then that goes into like Jack Benny and the radio and then early TV and the

honeymooners and Warner Brothers cartoons. And like and then into the the history of the sitcoms of the Dick Van Dyke show and Mary Tyler Moore show and, you know, MASH. Onwards and MASH. This is and then the office. The office is a long tradition. Yes. A long tradition of these stock characters. Yes. You could trace Michael Scott. Yeah. Or Dwight. This is so fascinating.

Back to Aristophanes. And just kind of like. Comedy del Arte for sure. And how, you know, yeah, how what makes us laugh? What makes us laugh and why? And you're trying to update it for the modern world, but there's a tradition there. A lot of people don't quite trace it. No, and Stella used to say you had to get them laughing long enough to shove the medicine down their throats.

Exactly. There you go. And yeah, that show definitely does. Yeah. It just comes about it from a, from a. different thing, but it's doing the same thing, you know? Yeah. It's making us say, oh, look at us.

Right. We are so fallible. Look at us, poor humans. Look at us, poor humans trying to get by on every level. So when are you going to do some more theater? You know, I've been working on workshopping this, this William Kennedy's ironweed. Oh. For like the past four years, five years we've been workshopping it.

And did you ever read his book, Quinn's book by William Kennedy? No. That book is so good. He's like a lot. He's, he's one of the American great writers. And he's kind of like, he was big for a while because they made a couple movies, but then people are forgotten. William Kennedy, Albany, New York. Yes.

Ironweed is all about that. Irish Italian. Yeah, Irish town working class people. That's what this thing's about. It is beautiful. And it's, you know, he's doing our magical realism back then. I mean, he is, he is, he's on, he's like 96. We're trying to do it.

He's still alive. Yes. Oh, man. We're trying to get this done before he dies. And he's become a pal. I mean, I love that guy. Better get going. I know.

Yeah. So we're talking about doing it next year. Oh, wow. Amazing. Yeah. It's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah.

Knock on wood that that happens. The movie was. Yeah. It was okay. Yeah. It doesn't get it. It just didn't quite. No, it doesn't get it.

They tried. Yeah, they tried. It's a tough one. And they did a lot of his stuff. They did, he did Cotton Club. He did, you know, he, and there was a point where they were really trying to do his stuff. But he is, he's a treasure. He's an American treasury.

It's amazing we don't hear more. People are generated, you know, this generation. He's been kind of forgotten a little bit. Yeah, yeah. I ask a lot of people this question, but you're a 24-year-old living in Omaha, working at a Starbucks, you're dealing with mental health issues. Yeah. You know, you've dealt with depression.

Oh, yeah. You've had big health issues. You've grew up with dyslexia and ADHD. You've had, you know, learning, you know, issues. And then you see the world on fire the way it is. Like, where is hope? Where is that action that we need to take? What do you say to that 24-year-old in Omaha who's having both these internal struggles

and struggles with the outside world. Well, the one thing immediately you can do is go out into the woods, get out in nature, you know. That's the truth. That's the ultimate truth. We're caught in this mindset now where everything is happening in our mindset on a screen. And it's not reality. It's a reality that's been created by mankind's mind. And so it's deceptive.

It's not real. It's not actual. When you go out into nature and you spend enough time for your nervous system to begin to quiet itself, you'll find peace and you'll experience the true reality. that's happening all around us all the time that we can draw from, that we can get strength from, that connects us back to our original purpose. And I think... Which is?

Which is to be in relationship to this creation. Mankind is part of a entire, ecosystem that is in relationship. It's what the natives have taught me. That's what I've learned countless times again and again. And that is a reality that is soothing and will support you and will. That's one thing I can say. Okay.

The other thing is, is art, man. Find a place to be creative. All of us want that experience. That's part of all of us, whether we're online trying, even online when we're making connections, it's a, it's an act of creates, it's a need to be creative. One thing I have a big problem with is this word creatives. Like, oh, he's a creative. Oh, she's a creative. Like, we're all creative.

Exactly. You can be a tax attorney and you are, you're finding creative ways to save people money. But not only that, you decorate your bathroom with your stamp collection, whatever. it is, there everyone has an impulse. Yes, holly hobby, like these hobby stores, you know, they're huge all over America because we want to be creative, but we don't honor that, you know, as a nation anymore. We need that. The whole reason I, the whole reason I'm even alive is because I was given like, I learned

how to do pottery or I did, you know, as a kid, just things that, that express that creative. Another thing we haven't come. Did you do pottery? Yes. I was in the pottery club and junior high. Now I have a, I have a kiln and everything. Oh, damn. I've got a kiln too. I haven't used it. Yeah, that's all right. It's hard. It takes time. That's beautiful. What else for this 24-year-old? What about getting involved? Yeah, I mean, of course, get involved, but also like have some balance, you know, read a book too. Or, you know, they're savvy. These kids, you know, you know, they're, they're savvy. These kids. I know, you know, they're savvy. They know where they know where they need to go, I think.

I would say in terms of getting involved, successful movements, I think, all start at the grassroots. It has some way, shape, or form. Where it touches your life. Look around in Omaha, like, what do you care about and put in a few hours a week or even a few hours a month in Omaha to what you care about? Yes. Just start there.

That's huge. You don't have to do some. big Greta Thunberg kind of thing. It doesn't have to be big. It seems to be the smallest thing. But if everyone is putting in a couple hours. And helping other people, doing stuff for other people, man. It's, you don't, it's just goes so far.

It's like, it's, it's, it's an immediate burst of, of, of good feeling inside of you. One of the things we ask everyone on Soul Boom is, uh, how do you define the word soul? Well, first of all, the word soul, you can only really get at it through poetry. in a sense. It's not something that you can really, why I'm struggling with it, it's not something you can point at. But I see it as this quiet part of yourself

where you're having a conversation with something that's eternal and that is usually very thoughtful. Your conscience, your, you know, spirit guy, whatever people. But it's usually informative. But it comes from a very quiet place, you know, that has a stillness to it to me.

And it's not something that you can easily like describe. And it's where the poets get their inspiration from and art. And it's the wellhead of, I think, of all creativity. I love that. That's beautiful. That's why it took me a long time. No, it's beautiful and true. You summed it up beautifully.

Okay. Mark, thank you for your time. I'm glad to be here. I love you. Make sure everyone to check out task on, is it HBO still? HBO Max, yep. Really, such a pleasure. We've been talking about doing this for a long time.

Yeah, we had. Thanks for making the time. We got to do it. What an honor, man. Yeah, what an honor. Thanks. So nice. We got to talk about things you just never get to talk about.

That's why I love the old podcast, man. The Soul Boom Podcast. Subscribe now on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever else you get your stupid podcasts.