Soul Boom - Mark Ruffalo Takes Faith to Task (Pt. 2)

Episode Date: October 19, 2025

Part 2! Mark Ruffalo joins us again to talk about marriage as "soul work," raising artists, healing family trauma, and why vulnerability might be the bravest thing a man can practice. He opens up about his father’s Baha’i journey, the sweetness of those early firesides, Standing Rock, and the Lakota lessons that reshaped his activism and hope. Mark Ruffalo is an Oscar-nominated actor, producer, and activist known for Marvel's Avengers, Spotlight, and his decades of environmental and social justice work. THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS! ZipRecruiter (try it FREE!) 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ziprecruiter.com/soulboom⁠⁠⁠ Quince (FREE shipping!) 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://quince.com/soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠ reMarkable (FREE returns for 100 days!) 👉 https://remarkable.com⁠⁠⁠ Superpower 👉⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Go to Superpower.com to learn more and lock in the special $199 price while it lasts. Live up to your 100-Year potential. #superpowerpod Fetzer 👉 https://www.fetzer.org SOUL BOOM WORKBOOK (pre-order now!) ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⏯️ SUBSCRIBE!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠👕 MERCH OUT NOW! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠📩 SUBSTACK!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  FOLLOW US! IG: 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://instagram.com/soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://tiktok.com/@soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  CONTACT US! Sponsor Soul Boom: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠ Work with Soul Boom: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Send Fan Creations, Questions, Comments: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Executive Produced by: Kartik Chainani Executive Produced by: Ford Bowers, Samah Tokmachi Companion Arts Production Supervisor: Mike O'Brien Theme Music by: Marcos Moscat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Of all my religious experiences, which were a lot at that age, that was the most profound to me. That was what made the most sense. That's where I felt the most welcome. That's where I felt the most sincere practice of a belief. I really felt those people were living their proclaimed values. And I was just like, this is the world I want to live in. It's me, Rain Wilson, and I want to dig into the human experience. I want to have conversations about a spiritual revolution.

Let's get deep with our favorite thinkers, friends, and entertainers about life, meaning, and idiocy. Welcome to the Soul Boom podcast. There's a shit ton we've got in common. First of all, I want to say that we, your wife's name is Sunrise. Yes. My wife's name is Holiday. That's crazy. That is crazy.

That's pretty crazy. That's pretty nuts, right? Yes, yes. And we've both been married a super long time. Yes, that's right. I got married in 95 and you beat there. We're like 2000 or something like that? 2001.

2000. Yeah. Sons born 2001. Excellent. Tell me about married life with sunrise. What have you learned there? It's the best thing I have going. You've raised three adult kids.

There's three adult kids who are... They're all artists. Yes, they're all artists. And a jewelry designer, a actor, and a painter. We've been together a long time. We've seen a lot. We've been through a lot together. And I just adore her.

Like, I just love her more and more as time goes on. That's amazing. She's in menopause now. So, like, it's kind of a cool chapter for her. I feel like she's... That's a challenging chapter. Yeah. But it's also just been...

She's really... It's a hot to say, but she's coming to her own in a way. That's, like, just really exciting. And, you know, she's not raising kids anymore, really. And she's not... And I just... I'm just digging this version of her quite a bit.

And we're having a really nice time. I mean, we're like empty nesters now. Yeah. You doing some traveling or anything? We're going to do it. We're going to do some traveling in November on October. And I mean, but we're just like in the house together and there's no one else there. Yeah.

And we're watching movies and we're going for a walk. I mean, it's just really a sweet, just a sweet moment. It's really been enjoyable. That's amazing. Yeah. How did you guys meet? What's your story? It's kind of crazy.

We met a friend of ours was getting out of a friend of us. getting out of rehab in in Los Angeles. All right. And he was coming, he came to visit me. And he was a good old friend of both of ours. And then he, she was coming to see him. And I was, he lived about a block away from me. So I was walking back from my place.

And I see this woman get out of her car. She's maybe like 50 yards away from us. And I'm just knocked out by her. I mean, I don't know what it was. I just was like, who is that? And then I was like, oh, I'm going to marry that person. I'm going to marry that. Whoa, seriously.

Yes. And. Because I've heard that story before. Yeah. I have heard that story from other couples of like seeing someone. I'm like, I'm marrying that person. Like, yes. And I didn't know who she was.

Yeah. And I don't, I mean, maybe I'd thought that before. I don't ever remember thinking that about anybody. But it was. And so then I was like, well. So how am I going to meet her? And then she turned towards us and she just got a huge smile in her face. And she literally starts running towards me.

And I think to myself, oh, she must know too. And you weren't a movie star at that point. So you were just kind of, yeah. I was just, I was doing like, I was about to do, well, I'd done some, some plays in L.A. But I hadn't. No, she didn't. And she's running towards me with the same amount of joy that I'm feeling towards her. I'm ready to receive her.

And she runs right by me and throws herself into my friend's arms, you know, in a big hug. And she starts crying because she was so happy to see him well, you know. Yeah. And then he introduced me to her and he's like, uh-huh. Anyway, oh my God, I'm sorry. Yeah. You know. And so I realized that the only way I was going to ever turn her head is if I can make

her laugh. So I told a story at my friend's expense that got a laugh out of her. And she turned to me and she said, wait, who are you? Yeah. And yeah, we went to a dinner together that night. And it was not. Making him laugh is what it's all about, right? You have to make it.

worked for me because she is way out of my league. Mine too. Holiday. So what? That's 30 years. Yeah. And we were together like four years before that dating. That's amazing.

It's beautiful, right? Super, super long time. It's amazing. And like you say, for me, like the greatest accomplishment and one of the most difficult jobs I've ever had, the most difficult job I've ever had. In fact, I would say it's more difficult than parenting is sustaining a long. long-term marriage and intimacy and the ups and downs and miscommunications. Yeah, the communication, man.

It's, you know, it's, you know, it's been some really rough periods and just blissful, blissful series of years. It's where you grow. I mean, I don't know. I mean, it really does. You know, it's the best of you and the worst of you. There's someone, I think Annie Lamont said that like marriage is a soul growing machine. or maybe it was M. Scott Peck.

I can't remember who it was, but it's a sold-d-l-l-l-machine. I agree. It's, I learned a lot. And I, I mean, I could say I've come a long way. And I hope she'd say the same thing. But yeah, that's great. I was just watching our marriage video. We were watching it.

My uncle sent it to me. I hadn't seen it, you know. And so it's been fun. The wedding video. The wedding video, yeah. 2000. So it was like a big handicap kind of thing. Yeah, it was terrible quality.

But, um, so it was a wedding video. We were such kids and we've grown so much. It was remarkable to see, because you could really see how much we've grown with each other and just in relationship to the world. What advice, it's a lame question, but what advice would you give? No, it's a lame and really important question.

What advice would you give to someone wanting to have a long-term relationship, either to find one or sustain one? I'd definitely say, put therapy, therapy in the mix, having a professional who can guide you, I guess, or somebody, a rabbi, you know, somebody that, that understands relationships, I'd say a therapist is probably the best who's trained for this, and who can, who can guide you and, and, and, a therapist rabbi combination would be amazing. Would be perfect, you know.

but that they that they can guide you and that they can they show you what you can see you know there's just having that outside perspective of a neutral person who who you hope loves you as a couple and who you hope is is is cheering you on as a couple yeah we had those people in our in our lives very early on and we've checked in with them um when we get in the trouble and the trouble's going to come you know um and sometimes the flight or fight response is so intense especially when you're stuck into like trauma a family trauma because we're only a product of what we know and my family my parents broke up at 20 years her parents broke up like she was a baby still so those are that's that's that's that's our models and they're just

They're incomplete and they're damaged models, you know. So having a therapist. I think you put your finger on it. You know, there's so much like I didn't learn from my parents. It wasn't modeled to me or taught to me or encouraged in me. One thing is like how to deal with anger. Yeah. Like my family never expressed anger.

And then it would come out sideways like Mount Vesuvius just with broken dishes and screaming and slamming and then it would go back to weeks and months of like, everything's just fine. I'm fine. Everything's fine. So, you know, to how do you healthfully express anger? Those are, and very few people are given those tools as, as children. Absolutely. Oh, I mean, our generation, I mean, I mean, my dad, God bless him, but he, you know, actually, when he became a Baha'i, He really chilled out. But up until then, I mean, spanking. Pre-beh-high.

Spankings were like a common thing. Yeah, I was spanked a lot too. And it was scary. I mean, it was beyond a spanking sometimes. I mean, it was. Well, that's the thing. Like, all spanking is wrong and bad. Yeah.

And kind of a physical abuse, right? But if you were to justify spanking, you would say, hey, I've told you three times not to throw up. at the neighbor's house, we get it again. So now you're gonna get some corporal punishment. Yes, don't start the garage on fire. Yeah, and like, here you go, can't get 10 times. Yes, yeah.

And when, like, yes. But that's not how it worked in my house either. Where spanking was an extension of rage. So losing a temper grab spank. Oh yes. And you feel that. You feel the intention behind it as a child. You feel, is this a punishment?

or is this an expression of someone's rage that's being mis... You can't articulate it, but in time, with some therapy, you start to see. And then, you know, my father's evolved. And I mean, he said he came to me. He's like, I will never, ever hit you again. And I was like, right. So I went out of my way for months to provoke. to poke him. To poke the beehive. Yeah. Yeah. Because I didn't trust them at that point. Yeah.

And he never did. And those were the most like healing. That was the most healing time of my childhood and my father became a Baha'i and he stopped that kind of behavior. It was profound. Wow. It was profound. It was amazing. And but what I was getting to is like we, so that was our model. That was like that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, That's been the model for his genet. I mean, my grandmother chained my father to the pipes in the basement when she went to the grocery store because she didn't want him to mess up the house. Whoa. Okay? Yeah. So that was the level of that. I mean, they laugh about it.

They tell me these stories like, it's funny. And part of me is like, that is horrifying, you know, as a child. And, but that's what we, that's where the product of that. Like, we're the first, we're the first generation where we're actually addressing these things as like problematic. Yeah. And like saying, oh, maybe I don't want to be like that as a parent, you know, maybe I don't want to. That's, I didn't like that as a kid. And I didn't see the, I didn't really see the use of it or I didn't see it as being a good thing for me as a kid.

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quite often like, I want to be better. I want to be a better parent. I want to be the father that I wanted to have. I see that express quite often. Yeah. Through all, all levels of life, you know, not just us actors and an artist, but my, you know, my friends who are who are building houses or prison guards or what have you. You know, my community upstate, I see, I see it, I see a market change in the way people are parenting their kids. For better or for worse. I mean, this is kind of a social experiment, but I believe that the less trauma you have

put on your kids, the better outcomes they're going to have. And there's other things I wasn't learned. I wasn't taught how to be vulnerable, how to share my feelings. I wasn't taught kind of how to kind of read the room with kind of empathy and compassion. And there's so many things that I wasn't parented in that that a therapeutic kind of set of guidelines. Through the relationship of your marriage. Through.

Yes, exactly. Yeah. Like through that testing ground. Yeah. Where you can't run away. Where you can't hide. You can't put on your best face. You know, you can't behave.

you know, the shit's gonna come up. My wife just said the other day, she's like, you know, and she's, you know, here we are both 60 years old. And she's like, I still, you know, after all of these years, like sometimes when I'm just on fire and overwhelmed, like I just need a hug. And to say, to say, I just could really use a hug right now is one of the hardest set of words to come out of the human mouth.

Yes. And she's trying to learn to just be like, can you just hold me for a little bit? I just need a hug right now. And for me to like intuit that and not lecture, but listen, empathize. Buddy. So we're 34 years in and still working on stuff. I know.

And then you'll change, you know. It'll change again. It'll be, I need, I need a diamond ring. Well, I mean, it'll be something else. Yeah, it'll be something else. All of our needs are constantly changing. Yeah. And then just lastly on that point is like just being a man.

You know, like my idea of being a man in a relationship to a woman was so, it was misogynistic. It was, it was, I just, I just have learned so much. Like to listen to her and to, and these roles. What did you think you needed to be in 2000? 2001, 2002. She's got to stay with the kids. She's got to, you know, it was like, you know, I had some really, you know, they just didn't give her much space for her to be her version of herself.

It was very traditional expectations for a non-traditional person, you know. And it wasn't fair. It wasn't pretty. And it was very unhappy for it, made her very unhappy. And like to learn that and to just to become aware of it. It was like asking a fish about water. I grew up in that, you know? Yeah.

Like a fish doesn't know what water is until you pull them out of the water. And so, you know, the things that I'm not proud of, one hunt, you know. It makes me cringe some of it, you know. Sure. But, um... Plus, it's really hard to be married to someone who's an actor in Hollywood and has a certain measure of success or celebrity. Because, because it, it tends to, like, all the attention seems to go there and, like,

what does Mark need? What does Rain need? And, yes. And how is Mark? How is Rain? What are they working on? Yes. It's, it's a...

In some ways, it's great for her. Like, we get opportunities to travel and certainly, you know, make enough money. and stuff like that. Decent restaurant of reservations on the fly. But other than that, it's a curse. Yeah. How have you guys dealt with that? It's taken a long time and a lot of grace.

But I think we kind of have it wired now. I mean, she's fantastic. She's a star in her own right, really. She's just incredibly beautiful. and very funny and a strong personality herself. I always say to her, you know, you steal all my friends from me. You know, like, I'll be friends with like Naomi Watts first and then now they're best friends. Like, you know, and so she holds her own really well in all of that, which is, I think, great.

And over time, she's become more and more capable of that. that. And then it's been, you know, if I do the red carpet, I always, I always do it with her. She's always with me. You know, we don't break off for that. It's been hard, you know. It's, it's like, what do you need in these situations that are going to make you feel comfortable and welcome and appreciated, you know? And a lot of that was like, just, you know, stick with me. You know, don't, don't leave me. Don't, you know, because once you leave, you. Because once you leave that the sea, like it just becomes an ocean, a wave, you know, and people who aren't attached to the ship just get washed away, you know. And so that's been a big thing.

Well said. Yeah. Absolutely. So we'll go there because you brought it up a couple of times, but what the fuck your dad became a Baha'i? How did that? Now, how does that work? When I first heard that from our mutual friend, Mark Bamford. Yes. Yes. He's like, in old rain. Ruffalo's dad was a Baha'i. I was like, wait, what? He's like, yeah, yeah.

How did you know, Mark? Do you guys work together? We worked together at the Olive Restaurant in L.A., which was Sean McPherson's basically his first place. Now he's this hotel mogul. He has a barry and, you know. Okay. But we worked together there.

He was the manager, and I was a doorman. And he did, and I was a bar back and a bartender. And we just, I was like, who is this guy? This guy is. He's an enormous, six foot five guy, giant white, beer. At that time, booming voice. Yeah, booming voice. Big personality, super smart.

Yeah. Gifted, confident. I went to the U.S. Open with him. Oh, you did? Yeah. Oh, that's great. I haven't seen him talk to him in a while. He's like, he's like a real life.

Hagrid, that's how I think about it. Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. But he's drawn into that. Yes, my dad is a Baha'i. You're dad. Tell me about that. You grew up in Kenosha, Wisconsin.

That's right. That's right. Your dad is from as well. Yeah. And my dad grew up in this Italian, a Catholic, very staunch Catholic, you know. What's his name? Frank, Frank. Frank Ruffalo.

Frank Lerfellon Jr. Sounds like a car mechanic. Yeah, yeah. And he's not. He's, he has a soul of. an artist. I always say he's an artist that never really found his art for. What was his line of work? We were, uh, we were a construction painting company, my family had a, and he was, he worked for the family business. Um, he was a foreman. He was a, um, he was, um, he was, um, estimator. He was, he was

very good at what he did. But he, he was just, he came up empty, uh, spiritually, um, in, in, in the Catholic church and he was a seeker in Kenosha wisconsin this blue collar you know very blue collar was factory workers yeah you know he was the only one who went i mean there wasn't no one went to college my family were all immigrants was first generation italians you know it was like a totally different world and and there in kinochet wisconsin is one of the first bahai communities in the united states yeah of all places. Yeah, and Abdulahah went there.

You visited there when he came to America. That was the first place he came here. So for people who don't know, the son of the founder of the Baha'i faith, whose name was Bahá'u'llah, which means the glory of God. His eldest son was the center of the covenant or the leader of the faith named Abdul Baha, servant of glory. And he came to America in 1912 for about 237 days and traveled around North America. And of all places, swan.

through Kenosha, Wisconsin. Did he come there because there was a Baha'i community? Yes, they invited him there. Go figure. And it was the first Baha'i community in the United States. Oh, that's nuts. And so he came there. Yeah.

And I guess that caught my dad's eye, that historical, I mean, this Middle Eastern mystic. Mystic, prophet, you know, son of a prophet of this new burgeoning religion that spurred the UN and just had these concepts that could address a modern mankind in a spiritual way that made sense, you know? And so I think he, it's so strong, I never really asked him like how he got involved. He had some friends who were in the community.

Okay. Some family friends. Is this the 70s we're talking about? Yes, yes. This is the 70s. And Seals and Croft was hot. You know what, God bless the 70s. Come on.

The 70s were awesome. I lived on Lake Michigan, which was the most polluted dump of the United States where the fish were swimming with literal cancerous growth on their faces and bodies, right? And within the 70s, that period of time, I saw that lake get cleaned up because of the environmental movement. I saw it happen in real time. In two years' time, there were no fish with cancers growing on. There was no foam and pollution. You know, that lake became clean.

People realize, like, the ecology movement, Silent Springs, Secret Spring, Rachel Carson. Earth Day. Yeah, Earth Day. That was the biggest, the millions of millions. All started late 60s, early 70s. Yes, it was magical. This concept that you would like care for the environment. We could actually change something.

And that we can have legislation that is positive, that curtailed. And bipartisan. I mean, Nixon signed down to the Clean Water Act. I mean, that was Nixon, you know? Like there was no, that wasn't they, like the idea that that we want clean food, clean air and clean water. Wait a minute. That's going to hurt the economy.

No. We did well. We shared it, you know. But also this element of spiritual seeking in the 70s that I missed so much. I've talked about it. A lot of talk about it in Soul Boom. and many times this idea that, you know, Steve Jobs went and lived on an ashram and Kat Stevens became a Muslim and people were just searching.

They're like this, you know, the old organized religions aren't really cutting it. Maybe there's new spiritual paths or maybe there's ways of refreshing my Christianity. And that was happening too. Yeah. So, but personal search and saying like, I'm just not going to accept what the culture is giving me. I'm not going to accept what my parents are giving me. I'm going to, I'm going to find the truth for myself. Nowadays, it's kind of like, you're left or you're right, and you just believe what you read online, and no one questions, and there's no kind of true independence or, and especially

around spiritual search. Well, the mystical element of spirituality. Well, at the same time, it's, it's, in some ways, it's exploded, you know? You know, it's, um, it's not as remarkable now as it was in the 70s. It's it's more extreme I feel like because we're in more extreme you know, we're facing more extreme things like climate change and immigration because of it and and a global economy where we're actually in conversations with each other so we're actually seeing the injustices instead of them being tucked away in secret, you know. But for my dad, I guess it was pretty radical to do. what he did. And to be from this Catholic family, who was he, where was he born in the States?

Kenosha, Wisconsin. He was born in Kenosha. Yeah, yeah. So he didn't come over like from middle. No, that was my grandparents. Okay, yeah. So he was, he was a first gender and they, and they were trying to assimilate. Like, they were, they were like, we don't speak Italian anymore. We speak English, okay? We're moving from the Italian neighborhood, moving to where the white people live now, we're going to live next to a doctor, right? Okay, we're going legit, okay? Yeah, we're American now, right? Yeah, no more Ziti, now it's hamburger.

So it was always like, what does the neighbors think? So for my dad to bust out into this Middle Eastern religion that nobody really knew about. But I remember going to those firesides. And because I was, my mom and my grandmother were evangelicals. I was saved by Jimmy Swagger, okay? Wait, what? Yes, Jimmy Swagger came to our time. He saved you?

He saved me. My grandmother wanted me for her birthday to be saved, to take Jesus into my heart. So they switched from Catholicism to evangelicalism. Yes, my grandmother and my mom. Wow. And so my grandmother was my, you know, she was my God. I mean, I loved her, you know. She was my special, you know, person.

She didn't chain you to a radiator. She never changed me to radiate her. But she was like, what do you want for your birthday, grandma? I want you to take Jesus in your heart. as your savior. Jimmy Swigert's coming to town. It was the first assembly of God where they were going all over the nation

at that point, the evangelical movement. And so I had that. I had that. I went to Bible studies with that. I was raised in a Catholic school. I went to Catholic school. I got my first communion. I had that, right?

And then my dad is like come to fireside with me. So I had like all three of the, If there was one Jewish person, I would have had the entire Middle East. All of the Abrahamic religions, yeah. So I go to the doctor the other day to get some labs done, and as she looks up from the results, she says, oh, it looks fine, drink more water, eat less carbs, be less grumpy. Now, that's not medical advice. That's just bullying.

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Tell me about that. Tell me you're 10 years old going to a Baha'i, Fireside, in Kenosha, Wisconsin. What's that like? It was so sweet because they, love the kids, you know. Yeah. We weren't like the scourge, like shut up, sit down, be quiet, you know, you should be seen but not heard.

That wasn't the vibe. It was like the children. We love come sit with us. Listen, you know, have a cookie, you know. It was, it just was, it had a sweetness to it. And the people were, they were earnest about, about their beliefs. And I'll tell you. it had the most of all my religious experiences, which were a lot at that age, that was the most

profound to me. That was what made the most sense. That's where I felt the most welcome. That's where I felt the most sincere practice of a belief. Like I really felt those people were living their proclaimed values. And how did your dad? And the way they treated other people. And there was multiracial.

I mean, that was another thing. There was, you know, there was multiracial couples that were there. You know, it was. And I was just like, this is the world I want to live in. These people aren't hating on each other. This is not a sense of work better than anybody else. This is like, we're all here together. Let's make it a better world.

And let's do it through our own personal community right here, right now, you know. And I saw that as a kid. And the idea that all the religions were sacred and that it just was, it had an inclusivity to it that made me feel like, okay, if there, because I, at that point, I'd given up. You know, I was the kid who was like, wait a second. Wait, are you saying that heaven is like in the clouds? Like it's like right up there? Is it before the moon or after the moon? Yeah, like that's where it is.

Yes, that's stop. And so if I dig down, I mean, it was, they did mistake the denotation for the connotation, you know. It was like, it was so literal. And it made no sense to me. And I was the kid who was like, this doesn't make any sense. Shut up. You know? And so they lost me immediately.

Yeah. So then I got them the Baha'i thing, and it was like, it was the poetry. It was the metaphor. It was the denotation, you know. That's beautiful. How did your dad deal with wanting to raise you Baha'i? Did you consider becoming Baha'i of 15? Because there's a big thing.

For folks who don't know, when you're 15 in the Baha'i faith, that's the age of maturity, and you decide if you want to be a member of the faith or not, and you're on your, there's no coercion. You make your own decisions. It's an individual investigation of truth. Yes. You kind of find it for yourself.

Your dad pretty hands off and just like... He was very hands off. Yeah. Because at that point, he had sort of left the Baha'i faith as a strict adherent, but had always lived by those principles and loved them. But I feel like he felt like it was he couldn't honestly, by the time I was 15, I'm trying to think, he was still a Baha'i, but he was, his thing was, I will never push anything on my kids.

Because he had, his parents forced him to do everything. Yeah. And so his entire ethos towards me as a kid was, I will never force you to do anything. I will offer this to you, which he did. Yeah. I will show you how I live this in my life. Uh-huh.

I remember, I'd be like, dad, you know, the neighbors are up by the fire pit. You know, they're drinking beer. you know, they invited you to come over. He's like, I don't drink. And I don't really, they drink a lot. And I don't really relate to that. Everyone in Wisconsin drinks a lot. They drink so much.

And I was disappointed, you know. But I saw his faith in action. Like he really, he really lived it, you know. And so I admired that in him. It was, it, it was a very fruitful time. for me in that sense. So what spiritual truths do you walk with now in your life that you may be gleaned from the Baha'i faith and even Catholic? I always say like if I was on Baha'i, I'd probably be a Catholic because there are certain things I just love about. I love the mystical Catholic tradition

and writings. I do love the symbology and yeah it's the mystical parts of it. The dogmatic parts I I have just never, you know, like I was saying, from a early childhood, I just couldn't understand what we were getting from it, especially the device of things. Like, I could not, it was just a feeling level. It was like, if God is love and if what I heard from Christ that felt like was actually felt like the person that was giving those gospels, the direct gospels, you know. I never was sensing this hateful, angry, vengeful vibe from that. I really like that internalized to me, like the mystical.

So it's a sense of equality, love thy neighbor to try. to lift up humanity and the people around you through kindness and love and acceptance. I never gave much, my grandmother's like, you'll be saved. Now you're Jesus. You're saved. You could do anything now. You're saved. Go crazy.

You could do anything. You're saved. I never really bought into that. I was like, listen, you know, you live a good life. Like that's more, that means more to me. That is, that's what matters is what we do here, you know. And that's been a concept that I, you know, treat, treat others the way you want to be treated yourself. Love thy neighbor, you know.

This is an ongoing debate in Christianity itself where Peter says, no, James says, you know, faith without works is dead. And then Paul says, you know, by faith alone, are you saved? So there's been this kind of 2,000-year-old debate about like, do you just kind of like, say, save me Jesus and then do whatever the fuck you want. I mean, one's super easy and kind of cynical. Yeah. And your friend, Timmy, who's a Buddhist, is going to go burn in hell, which is below the crust of the earth. I mean, I just don't ascribe to that.

Yeah. And I might be wrong. I mean, like, who knows? It's very interesting to read, like, and watch online conversations and read essays about how they skirt the faith without works as dad. It's like, well, yeah, that's our ideal is to be like, Jesus, but you don't have to. And there's all of this kind of like paddling like a hamster on a hamster wheel to try and like step away from the truth. The truth.

Yeah. Well, I even have the debate. Yeah. Unless there's an inkling that there's a truism there that you're trying to be in denial about. Yeah. Or be righteous about it. I don't know. This is just my personal opinion, too. You've done a lot of work and made a lot of dear friends in the Lakota community.

Tell me about your work there and what you've learned from that tradition. Well, like I was just saying, our relational place in the world, that's been huge for me. And this kind of optimism in the face of just the worst. Yeah, poverty, injustice. adversarial circumstances. I mean, those people were, they'll be the first to tell you we're still here. You know, during Standing Rock, I was there and I was, I was invited to do a sweat lodge, like a traditional sweat lodge. It was mostly Lakota people.

There was maybe three other white people. There's probably 30 people. We were in a sweat lodge together. And it was at the height of it. It was when the arm, I mean, there was armed. They had like weapons of war there. I mean, it was so intense. And the hatred on that front line that you could feel,

I went to the front line, you could feel those guys with those weapons. They hated. They were, that was hatred. They wanted, they wanted to hurt people. They wanted to use those weapons, man. You could feel it. It was, I'd never felt anything like it. It was terrifying.

And I came back. I was like, this is, I'm going to leave here and you're going to be stay here. And I just caught the whole thing, the whole vibe towards the racism and hatred and the and the, oh man, it was, it was a lot taken. And I was in, I was like in despair. And we sat in that and in the, in the sweat lodge, it's dark, you know. And it's, it's a thousand years ago.

they're singing the same songs, you know. And it's pitch black. And people are going around and they're talking about what they're struggling with. It's like a confessional, but with human beings, your community, there, listening. And once a person's talking about a family member who went to prison who's struggling with drug addiction. And, you know, it's like so humanizing and so vulnerable and everyone's being so honest. And so I was talking about, I'm terrified what's going to happen to you. Like, I'm going to go back to my world.

This is your, you know, I'm terrified. And they laughed. Oh, brother, Mark. Now you know what it's like to be a Lakota. Now you know. But we're still here, brother. And we've already won. This is just a machination.

We've already won, brother. That's powerful. It was so powerful. The grace and to share their ceremony with me as a white man. Like the grace of it. And that's how they treated everyone with that open, that humility and that grace in the face of it to share their most sacred, spiritual, you know.

What little interaction I've had with folks, that are native and stuff that I've read, the stuff that I'm really most struck by is how integrated everything is. Spirituality is not church on Sunday. No way, man. It's in daily living, breathing thing. Activism and search for justice is not something

you do online or you talk about it in a class or something like that. That's a living. Nature is present everywhere. Nature and spirituality are integrated. service in a way that we have such a fractured life in the Western world. Yes, which is part of our alienation from it all, you know. They really have a lot to, I mean, from what I, there's just a lot to learn from my native family, you know.

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