Soul Boom - Neal Brennan: Does Brilliance Have Boundaries?

Episode Date: June 4, 2024

Comedian Neal Brennan (Chappelle's Show, Crazy Good, Blocks, 3 Mics) joins Rainn Wilson to engage in a deep and revealing conversation exploring the aftermath of Chappelle's Show, the sacrifices Neal made for his craft, and the profound impact of mental health on his life and career. Neal opens up about his struggles with depression, the therapeutic role of comedy, and his journey toward self-acceptance. Tune in for an insightful discussion that blends humor, vulnerability, and philosophical reflections on creativity and resilience. Thank you to our sponsors! Hoka: https://bit.ly/HokaSoulBoom Waking Up app (1st month free!): https://wakingup.com/soulboom Fetzer Institute: https://fetzer.org/ Sign up for our newsletter! https://soulboom.substack.com SUBSCRIBE to Soul Boom!! https://bit.ly/Subscribe2SoulBoom Watch our Clips: https://bit.ly/SoulBoomCLIPS Watch WISDOM DUMP: https://bit.ly/WISDOMDUMP Follow us! Instagram: http://instagram.com/soulboom TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@soulboom Sponsor Soul Boom: [e-mail] Work with Soul Boom: [e-mail] Send Fan Creations, Questions, Comments: [e-mail] Produced by: Kartik Chainani Executive Produced by: Ford Bowers, Samah Tokmachi Spring Green Films Production Supervisor: Mike O'Brien Voicing Change Media Theme Music by: Marcos Moscat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Go to Soulboom.substack.com. Thank you. After the demise of Chappelle's show, I used to carry around a list of good things I'd done. Sort of a self-esteem booster. What was on that list? It was certain jokes, certain sketches, certain parts of movies, certain, you know what I mean? Was it the day you handed out sandwiches to homeless people or anything like that? Or just comedy and sketches?

Grow up. Hey there, it's me, Rain Wilson. And I want to dig into the human experience. I want to have conversations about a spiritual revolution. Let's get deep with our favorite thinkers, friends, and entertainers about life, meaning, and idiocy. Welcome to the Soul Boom podcast. Well, the interesting thing that I don't really talk about much is, and I'm not going to today, is that when the TV show got picked up, when Chappelle's show got picked up, I knew I can't go to therapy anymore. I can't go to 12-step meetings anymore because I knew I wasn't.

going to be able to have a healthy life and healthy boundaries and make a great TV show. Was that the naivete of a 27-year-old? No, I think I was absolutely right. You think you were right on that. I think I was absolutely right. I couldn't do the show correctly or as well as we were able to do it and have boundaries. I swear to you. I think that's kind of silly.

I'm sorry. Fine. What's done is done. And you made one of the most brilliant comedy shows of all time. So one of the things that I remember Dave telling Conan O'Brien, Conan goes, who you write in the show with? And he goes, one guy. And Conan goes, don't do that.

And what he meant is it's too hard. Again, it's not the best advice I would give to somebody. But if I had had boundaries, I probably would have only work 11 hours a day. But with no boundaries, you can push it to 7. team over and over and over and over and I could edit for 48 hours straight and Conan was right and you're also right meaning you see how it ends yeah so it's like yeah no that was not that was too that was a that was the wrong approach do you think that if you had been in therapy and in 12 step and had healthy boundaries and only worked 11 hours a day and hired five other

of the greatest comedy writers you could find to assist on the show that the show would have been 10 to 15% less funny? Mm-hmm. If not 25 to 30. Wow. I can't explain it.

It's like somebody said to my friend Bejan who edited it and we're still friends and we still do stuff together, but somebody said, how was the show good? And he goes, because we watched every frame of the, every frame and then decide, and that takes,

That's not how people do it. They go, get some selects. And then I'll go through the selects and I'll tell you how to rent. Yeah. You know, it takes, it's easier. It is, you can protect your family, protect your mental health, but it's 20% worse. Yeah. So in some ways, it's a bit of, um.

But there's a lot of artists that I guess would fall into that category. I mean, would John Coltrane have been as good without heroin? It's a whole bit I have. It's a whole bit about it in the special about like the best in the do the bit. Okay. So then I come out there and I. So then I'm saying it like this. No, it's just about the craziest.

The best person at any sport is the craziest. Michael Jordan is not a healthy person. I remember that. Yeah. And then music. Comedy. Comedies are litany of maniacs. It's just a litany of maniacs.

So one of the jokes is. like, well, Neil, are you saying that all comedians are psychopaths and drug addicts? And I'm like, so far. Once I heard Mark Twainment's bipolar, I was like, oh, this all makes sense. So Arthur Brooks, he's happy best professor. Yeah, I read all this stuff. Yeah. Where he talked about something called emotional caffeine.

So caffeine is a drug that it is not actually a stimulant. It is this. It blocks something. Right. Yeah. It's this, it blocks the thing that makes you drowsy. Mm-hmm. So it blocks the drowsy stuff.

Close enough. caffeine. Caffeine, close enough. And so he said emotionally, there are emotional caffeine. There are emotions that you can feel. And when you, for instance, if you're feeling despair, if you express gratitude, if you send a gratitude list, you journal about gratitude, it literally blocks despair. And he said for stand-up comics and for comic actors and people in comedy, that the emotional

caffeine for depression and sadness is humor because you cannot be laughing and feel depressed at the same time. Watch me. I'm kidding. So there's this dance because when I think about that and I think about my youth and I used to memorize, you know, Amati Python routines and Steve Martin routines and say them and joke with our friends. And I had a, you know, had kind of a sad upbringing.

I mean, I wasn't beaten in my childhood like you. I didn't have it that bad, but yes. I occasionally caught some. You caught some belt, some Irish belt. Sure, sure. So are you a sad clown using comedy to counteract as emotional caffeine, your sadness and depression that you've spoken about? Yeah.

Nauseum. This one's got no emotional content. I have a new special coming out soon. That's got no emotional content. Yeah, I used to, after the demise of Chappelle's show, I used to carry around a list of good things I'd done as, and sort of a self-esteem booster. What was on that list? It was certain jokes, certain sketches, certain parts of movies, certain, you know what I mean? Was it the day you handed out sandwiches to homeless people or anything like that or just comedy and sketches?

Grow up. Yeah, it was all personal. Okay. And the thing that nobody ever says is personal achievements can make you feel pretty good. Yeah. And they can last a long time. It's how. Your self-esteem is better because you did the office forever.

Your baseline is higher. There is nothing wrong with healthy self-esteem. It can be denigrated by people that view it coming up from a spiritual lens as like ego. It can be denigrated in terms of people thinking of it as like narcissism or unhealthy, but there's nothing wrong with the fact of like, hey, I did these achievements. I came through these obstacles and I did X, Y, and Z, and I feel pretty damn good about that. And I feel pretty good about that as the office. You know, I was this screwed up guy and annoying and difficult and struggling and character

actor and 14, 15 years into my career. I got to play Dwight Shrewt, and people really like the role, and it's kind of legendary as witness by walking in any target store and seeing it on mugs and kitchen towels and bathmats. Yeah. And so, you know, good, good for you, right? Yeah, for real. Good for you. I don't think I feel the narcotic that, you know, it's my friend Jimmy Carr does a sort of not even a bit, but he says like, I'm a drug dealer and you have the drugs on you. I just say things that can release the drugs

and oxytocin dopamine and all that stuff. I love that. Yeah. And so I will say that... Could a stripper say the same thing? Yeah. Yeah. Yes, he could.

Yeah, I believe, yeah, it's the same basic idea. So I think maybe other people get it more than I do, but I get certainly a flood of something. not in a conversation, but at a theater show or whatever. Like I get a big, I mean, I did the, I was telling somebody this the other day. When Blocks came out,

I was walking down the street and I looked at my phone and saw all the positive things and I just went, and I felt it. You know what I mean? So it was a feel good emotion. I don't know which one of those sons of bitches

it was, but it was one of them. So if you hadn't gone into comedy, would you be dead? No, I'd just be a very frustrated, angry editor or something. A journalist? Yeah, maybe not journalists, but just because it's too hard. And no one believes you anymore. Pretty great.

You travel all over the world and you're haggard and no one believes it. People say what you do is fake. So I don't think I'd be dead per se. But, you know, in some ways I feel like the pursuit of showbiz might be unhealthy in the first place. It's like, if I'd never gone into it, I wouldn't have all these very conditional ways of getting love. There are very few people that I've ever met in my entire career. And Steve Carell is one of the very few that haven't gone into show business for some really unhealthy reason. And for me, it was like, like me.

I hope you love me. Hey. You know, I want the hugs and the dopamine and the high fives. But nobody gets, no one, Will Smith, Tom Cruise, the big movie stars, nobody gets it forever. You know, Tom Cruise is just doing sequels now. Did you see the last one though? It was so good. The motorcycle over the train, it was amazing.

I mean, I'm not kidding. Oh, no, I need the mission impossible. It was so good. I saw the Top Gun one and I was like, yeah. But when people think you kind of, the point is people get to like, well, now I'm set. It's not set. He's worried. He's worried about keeping it up.

Yeah. So it's all, it's a, it's fool's gold that some people manage to get a continuous supply of, but it's still kind of fools gold. Yeah. And to my earlier point, doesn't, it sort of prevents much of a personal life. Jim Carrey had a great joke about that when he was accepting a Golden Globe Award, which is like, oh, now I'm happy. Oh, I've got this.

Now everything is going to be great. And it was, and I felt the same way when I was. I was on the office and I've talked about this in a bunch of podcasts. People loved it when you talked about it. And they went apes shit and I'll probably talk about it on your podcast, which is, you know, I'm on the office, I'm shooting movies, I'm making millions of dollars, people adore me and the character. I'm hosting SNL and I spent many years being like, why don't I have three movies lined up?

Why don't I have X million dollars? Why don't I have a development deal at Warner Brothers? Where are my universal NBC offices? And so it's the never enoughness that is to the Buddhist, the essence of what that suffering imbalance is that we are all on a journey to rectify. Yeah. Most of us are in too deep. You know, what do you, hey, Rame, what are you going to do?

Are you putting the old script down forever? Are you putting the... I could do it right now? Could you? I could walk away. 100% I got one last score it's in my this is it is this podcast no I could do I could move to a farm on Montana right now and I could be happy and you you and your days would be occupied and you I could do beekeeping and pottery and I could be happy my wife thinks that I'm nuts for saying so but I really

truly believe that I have a joke with friends when they go you know what I'm gonna move to the country and open a juice bar and it's like you're a fucking phony and people in the country aren't going to like you. So this idea of like the cut, no, you're going to be, they don't have nail salon. There's so many things they don't have there that you're, you've built your life around and you're going to be miserable and no one's going to like you. And you're going to tell about like, well, in L.A., that's all you're, this is going to start every conversation.

I don't know if that applies. I don't know if that applies. Well, you live out in the sticks a little bit here. Yeah, I got pigs. Yeah. The only people that really kept touring were. Joan Rivers who ended up having $150 million in the back when she died

so she traveled And she gave it all the poodles Yeah It's something she gave it to her daughter And Leno still does it Yeah he does private Yeah but again it's easy at that tax bracket It's my point

It's at a certain point you go Am I gonna keep getting Going to the airport and all that stuff Yeah I entertain that fantasy and I go I'm just gonna go read Or any of those things It's just like dude people

you moved here for a reason. So my impetus for comedy, I think, is anger and a little like get back, meaning I consider my voice to be, hey, may I say something? Like there's just, just it. Can I just, may I? Yeah. I may hurt some of your feelings? Maybe I won't.

But like, can we? my point of view is this. So it is a bit of, you know, hey, I'd like to interject. But two things. Number one, I don't know you very well. We've only spoken briefly a few times. I've obviously seen all of your specials. But you have a deep and abiding relishment of a really good well.

I'll put joke with exactly the right words. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's a deep, it's like to your core. I can just see it in the way that you make comedy. Yeah, but it's from being a doorman at a comedy club in New York. And it's like, Louis, David Tell, Chappelle, John Stewart, Bray Romano, are regular, not doing well.

And there's a, there's a premium put on good writing. So, and I've always been like clever since I was a kid. So, so I do think it should be well done. And I do like it when people respect it. But I think there's a holiness in that kind of craftsmanship. Yeah. Whether you're a carpenter or a stand-up comic. But just that like the relishing, the deep relishing of like, oh, this table is just

joined perfectly or the way that I phrased that one joke. Yeah. Well, my jokes have also have to be perfect because I'm a little charisma deficient. So I have to get people on like, ah. Chappelle has amazing charisma. You should just write for him. Fuck. Do you have a way I get in touch with him?

Yeah, I think. Yeah. No. So I, so that is I do, I'm working and I do structural things and I'd like use the whole pig as it were like, I'm going to have three mics and I'm going to have a shadow and I'm going to I know your whole pick because those are your friends. That's your family. Um, so I still eat pork. I still eat bacon by the way. It's like I'm I have a pet pig. I'm vegan. I'm I'm vegan sometimes a vegetarian and it's like well how do you justify milking a cow? It's like everybody got to work.

Everybody got to get to work out. I got a job too cow. Go give go to the go to the dairy farm and That cow has a deep relishment in providing the most beautiful lactose for your enjoyment. Look, I'll take your word for it because that's your life. But yeah, so I do, the jokes have to be well structured. And yeah, there's something I'm not, I don't want to be shitty at comedy. It's too, it's too great. Yeah, but it's deeper than that. What I'm getting at is a little bit deeper than that.

Of course you don't want to be shitty. And of course you want to tell good jokes and make people laugh. but I can tell that there is a just a delight in just a certain like oh I phrased that and it's just it's like when you make a paper airplane you don't know what you're doing

and you throw it and it just sores and you're like wow I did that. Yeah, yeah I say that's true it's not a thing I'm very aware of it's not a thing I think about other than like the goal is like this shit has to work. Fair enough.

And then revision, revision, revision. Because it can work better I have a joke that I need one more beat for and it's taken me up six weeks and I'm still like every time try a different and like the one that works goes Does it have any examples that come to mind? Sorry to put you in the spot

That's probably a terrible question to ask I've a bit in blocks the how liberal are you game show Right? It's where it's like you're in an airport And a Muslim looking man Asked you to watch his luggage while he prays And it's like how liberal are you I'm like ah

I I tried other ones. Okay. I just didn't. It was like you're dealing with like length. You're dealing with rhythm. You're dealing with like could I have done two more? Visualization.

Probably I just couldn't. That was my limit. I tried other. So you know and at one point I didn't even have that. So that's an example of example. Like I'm doing small reshoots for my special on Monday and I'm. Like, people are still pitching me. Jimmy Carr pitched me stuff on the way here.

And I'm like, and I would have to write. It would take me too long to do them correctly. So there is an ongoing better, better, better, better. Your two specials, three mics and blocks center on mental health struggles in a lot of ways. And you have, in your comedy, become, incredibly revealing and dived as deep as humanly possible into your vulnerabilities in fears and struggles. You've been on innumerable podcasts talking about your treatment for depression. How did that come about where you're writing sketches that are really about, a lot about race

and cultural criticism? And then you turn to your more personal kind of comedic journey, all of a sudden going to coffee houses and driving to Irvine and Brea and, you know, spending five or six years building a comedy career. And you then are revealing a lot of stuff about yourself that 99% of comics would never reveal. And in a weird way, you're a trailblazer in that regard. I'd always been concerned with mental health. Me and Mike Schner wrote, sold a movie in 1998. And we were writing it in my house in New York and we'd go to Central Park,

and we'd walk around. And I just started taking Zolov. And I remember talking to him about it. And I remember talking to Dave about it, Chappelle. And I was like, I, Zoloff worked for me. And I remember saying to Dave, like, I don't want to dance, but I understand why people would. Whereas before that, I had no. It was like, what are you people doing?

so I had always been interested in it and talked to them about it. Chabelle is a joke where he's like, he wants to write a book about me called Just Drink. So I was always concerned with it. I do, I start doing stand-up. I do an hour on Comedy Central. It's fun.

Funny somebody just texted me a joke from it while we're sitting down. Like, I thought it was pretty good and people just didn't care. I was like, okay. I'm not going to keep doing this to no avail. I don't want to keep people. It seems like people don't care if I do this or not, which right there is sort of like, yeah, you have to keep going.

People don't care. People don't care about you for 15 years. People don't care. But I thought I need to tell people why I'm not smiling and charismatic. So that's basically the impetus for free mics. It's like, okay. Let me just tell you,

what it's like to be me because people either thought I was an interloper, I'd been handed a comedy career, I wasn't qualified to make the TV show with Dave, I wasn't technically qualified, but if you do it and it's great,

turns out you were qualified. Which people don't accept from certain people. So I was trying to get popular in a weird way, and novel. I knew I had to do it with novelty. So the three mics thing was that and I would listen to the moth and these podcasts and live shows and be like oh i wonder if i

could what would i talk about and then it came from that so so that was sort of the point and i'm the youngest in my family youngest of 10 people so young as 10 kids so when i would take zola off i was like a trail blazer in my family where they'd all be like wait what are you you going to take those forever What are you doing? It was like, you know, what in the 70s they would call gay. Were you the first in your family to have therapy too? Yes. And but not the most in need of it.

But I was the first one to really go. Well, here's a good. My dad went to therapy when I was in college and he started taking Prozac and he stopped because it was making him be too nice to people. So he drew the line. That's about enough of this kindness. So I didn't mind. And then my family was a little,

my sister told me a conversation she had with my other sister she had the other day where somebody said something in her family. She was like, it's so embarrassing. And my sister goes, did you see three mics as being some form of embarrassment for my family? But I think most of them came to realize that I just went first. Because people, it's in a 12-step meeting, opening person shares a 10-minute share, and then everybody does like a two-to-three-minute riff on the opening share. And that's, and everybody grows because of it.

And I knew that I was doing the first share. If you watch three mics, you must have been like, this is just a share. This is just a 12-step share. Yeah, I hadn't thought of it. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. So, so, and I tell people all the time, I've never been to a bad 12-step meeting. they're all pretty riveting. Yeah.

At least they're at least interesting and they can be... You'll always get something out of it. Transcendant. Yeah, it can be transcendent. Or at least it's like, well, I've never heard this. I've heard people got murdered. Like, I've heard things that are insane. And for me, sometimes it's like,

and sometimes you don't hear any of that. And it's kind of boring. And then at the end of it, you're like, this was just what I needed. Yep. Yeah. Here I am. I'm just another bozo on the bus with all of these bozos on the bus. And we're all in it together and suffering and we're just going to go for one more day.

Here we go. Yeah. And. And it's beautiful. Yeah. It's not like the main frequency in your brain, like the main voice over the main appraiser. It's in the groundwater. The quality of 12-step meetings to me.

So that was, that made me, I was kind of doing it. It was just genre mixing. and confession and stand-up. And so, and it was cool and it worked. Was there any element at all about this is important? And this will make a necessary impact. Look, reading Solbum, the, there is. Thanks for referencing.

Yeah, yeah. There is an element to it that I read it, And I'm like, look, man, I'm with you, but influencing people's hard. And you ever try to influence yourself? How long does that take to change yourself? Decades. It takes decades. So I'm all, I would love a consciousness, uh, transfer, transition or, or awakening.

Or it's just very hard. These, the bodies we're in are very, they don't like change. They just don't like it. They want to do the thing they want, which is like you just pull to the left or you tend to be angry, you tend to be. And it's impossible to break. I try to be humble about stuff like that.

I don't think it would have helped if I thought it was important. I think I would have been, it would have just been really pretentious. This guy, Frederick Buechner, once said, the place where God lives is where your great delight and the world's,

great hunger meat. So your great delight is making people laugh, proving yourself as a comedian. And the world's deep hunger in this day and age is to hear about a weird-looking, depressed comedian who overcame all of these obstacles to make great comedy and to share your soul in a hysterical way.

and it's made an incredible impact. So I'm... Yeah. The other thought I had is like it's so flooded now. Yeah. With like the market is saturated and it's, you know, trauma's overused. It's everything's all, every word in this area is completely overused. And it makes it like...

And I do think that it's not... It's like having a smoothie shop. And I do think that in a lot of ways all of this mental. health talk in some ways doesn't do young people any favors. It does in the fact that like, oh, they're like, oh, look at all these famous idols that I've had and that have had huge mental health struggles. And that's very helpful.

But if you're living your life through the lens of like, I'm anxious, I'm depressed, I'm lonely, I'm a misfit, I'm traumatized, that can hold you back. And you really, like very few people I've met in Hollywood have had these kind of very real setbacks due to your depression and have overcome it. Can you just talk a little bit about that? Yeah, I'm, so it was always,

you tried every treatment under the sun. I got in 90. How debilitating was it for you? It's just dysthymia is what I got diagnosed in in 1998. And what is that? It's inability to experience joy. Okay. And.

But didn't it go deeper than that sometimes? No. No. Yeah. Well, yeah, but yeah, it's hard when your partner leave. It's hard when you think your identity is one thing and it's taken away. It's hard when you feel like a generationally misfit. I have had things that are worthy of self-pity or any kind of pity, but self is my favorite. I tried probably five different antidepressants. I tried because Zoloft stopped working at a certain point. I tried transcranial magnetic stimulation. I tried.

That's magnets on the skull. They fire a magnet at a certain, they fire an MRI beam at a certain part of your brain and it alleviates depression. It's crazy. And now they have a better one. The Stanford, Stanford has it, it's called. Stanford Prison Experiment?

Yes. It's Stanford. I don't trust anything out of Stanford. Yeah. There's some good acronym like spider or something. That's five times the power of the one I got. I went to China to get it. I've done.

Good magnets there. They got some of the best. And they're not regulated. They make them there. EMDR. Sure. I did that. Helpful.

Mildly for me. Just a bunch of stuff. Finally I got to. Did you do electroconvulsive therapy? I didn't. I think it's. for, I think that's for a more severe level than I have. So, and then finally I like was out of, not out of options, but kind of like reached like, is there more?

Can I get more? It is a form of weird greed. It's like an emotional greed of, of, of, nah, it's better. There's something better. There's, it's like sending it back. Like, no, this isn't quite right. I don't know if wanting to feel better in your skin is greed. Right.

But I'm saying it, I don't say that with any judgment. I say it as, I won't say it's not earnest, but there is a selfishness to it. Like, I believe I deserve to experience more joy. That's a good, let's say it's good selfishness, right? And then finally, I after. Would that every listener of this podcast would say I deserve to experience more joy? Yeah. Why don't you?

Yeah. Why don't you? It's like, fuck, if everyone else is experiencing it, why shouldn't you? And can you do three things in a week to help you, experience more joy. Yeah. And I'm lucky in that I have a little bit of gold and I can, I can pursue and have magnets put on your skull. Yeah, it's a that again, we all have to genuflect privilege. Finally, I got to ayahuasca, which I'd heard was a good antidepressant. Yeah. Vaguely. And then somebody sent me an article from the New York Times because I'm at the age

where I get my drug ideas from the New York Times. And the gray lady. Yeah. And we, I did it probably 15 times and I got better, less depressed every time. And then I did. And I got,

you have to stop taking antidepressants to do it. And not only did I go off antidepressants to do it, I stayed off them. And be in the third night, I stopped being an atheist. And I don't want to get to. to that. Yeah.

I love this story. I've heard little nibbles of it that you've told some other place, and I want to do a deep dive. I want to do the deepest possible dive on the god that you found through ayahuasca. But first, similar to the god you found in your book, or that you, whatever.

Yeah, yeah. I want to push on this a little bit. I want to say that anyone that's doing hallucinogens because they're clinically depressed, they've tried everything else, and they need a way out, or they're clinically a day they've tried everything else and they went a way out. I'm amen for that. So I'm all in. Can I do my own

pre-am? I'm all in. My, uh, I have so much more to say. Are you sure you want to say this right now? Well, I just want to say as someone who's done almost 20 times ayahuasca, uh, went from 15 to 20 now. Be careful. Let me get the part two of my dialogue, my diatribe here. First of all, I hate the words plant medicine. Because you know what else is a plant? Heroin. You know what else is a plant? cocaine. Don't give me your plant medicine bullshit. I'll do my best. It feels like a justification. I also get a little bit tired of the contemporary idea of instant spiritual enlightenment due to a drug.

Because I am old enough to remember people talking about LSD in the same way in the early 70s. And they're going to start talking about it again soon. They are now. I remember people talking about mushrooms and peyote that way in the 80s. And there's always been a component of society that has said, you can find God, you can find divinity, you can find meaning and purpose and illumination through drugs. And I get a little scared because you have all of these very powerful influencers

talking about, you know, doing ayahuasca or acid and hallucinogens. and it can be dangerous. I've also met a guy. I've met several people, including an uncle of mine, who've completely fried their brains from microdosing and overusing. And I do think that one can find the divine inspiration, transcendence, connection, incredible beauty in ways that don't involve drugs. Now, again, this is not a judgment on you at all.

I respect your journey so much. Like when I hear about your life story, what you went through and what you've accomplished, and I truly mean this, Neil, like, it's jaw-dropping to me. And I've heard some of your ayahuasca stories and like, I want to get deeper. But I get a little scared about this. Hey, everyone jump on into the hallucinogen bandwagon. Totally agree. Yeah.

Because the truth of it is, I've had two experiences that were, I did, after the Iwaska, I did DMT, Bufo, Alvarius. It's got three different names. I don't know what that is. It's a toad venom. You did a toad venom? Let me finish. But it's one of the good ones.

No, it's a, it's a toad secretion, not a venom. It's like a, you know, it's like a toad. Let's say it's a toad. Toad jism. Yeah, I mean, like a pimp. They literally scrape the white and then they dry it and then you smoke it. It's basically pure deemps. DMT and you freebase it.

Okay. DMT is an ingredient in ayahuasca, but you drink it so your body breaks it down and then it enters your bloodstream. It's reptile medicine. Basically, yeah. And I did it and it was more severe than that. It was so far past, I do a thing in blocks where I do like a montage of what it was kind of like. That doesn't even get to it. It was, I was so far past.

I told somebody I was aiming for God and I missed my stop. I was Michael Pollan did it and he said it was in this, I had the same experience. It was like going to before the Big Bang. Wow. You don't think about it long. Like give yourself three seconds of what that would be like and then get out of there. Okay.

So let's go right to the God thing. You do ayahuasca. You're a diehard atheist. And you witness. The divine. What's that like? Talk us through it. I think a lot of people,

especially in L.A. and a lot of the influencers and all that stuff, they're doing these drugs. I'll use your word. You and the cops. They're trying to optimize themselves. They're trying to be better workers.

They're trying to be, I'm going to break through and then I'm going to be, it's the reason people out here, juice and salad and hike. It's all to become famous. I really believe that. It's all to get the right.

I've never heard anyone comparing juicing, saliding, and hiking to doing toad. They're all performance. They're ultimately performance enhancing drugs. That's how I think most people do them. I did them because I heard it would end depression, right? And then I have. Which I respect. Mad respect.

Yeah. But I think most people are doing it to just like, so that I can. And I think most people are also doing it because they're lazy because I want to go for a weekend. I totally agree. I totally agree. And I'm going to pay a shaman $1,200 and I want to have a shortcut to transcendence. Yes. Instead of reading the great books.

They call it spiritual bypass. And I don't even know if my depression reasoning is the right reasoning. I kind of think it's better than trying to be a better actor, writer, director, whatever. But that's, again, that's my own judgment. So I do it. First night, I do it one weekend. And I just had a really nice experience. I like a very pleasant.

I cried for like three hours straight to the point. And I wasn't even cry. It was kind of joyful crying. I was crying about groups of people. I don't even like groups of people. I just was, I like, it was like hypnotheria. What were you diagnosed with about joy? Dysthia.

So was it the first time you experienced joy? It would not, again, it's not like I never experienced it, but it's just always a little like, I always had the feeling like there's better, there's better one than this. Yeah. So it was not quite that, but it was very, very, very loving and warm. That's great. Yeah. Then I go, that's one on a Saturday night and then a month or two later, I go to a weekend.

First night, the medicine just didn't work. Do you love the, how about Psychonaut? Do you like Psychonaut? A buddy of my name Carl Hart wrote a book called Drug Use for Grownups that you would enjoy. He believes you can do heroin a little and you can do. meth a little. Yeah. And he's a professor Columbia.

That's right up my alley. Head of head of neuroscience. Yeah. Or something. Second night. Drink it. And I'm, the thing about ayahuasca to me is you kind of go inside the fabric of existence.

What does that feel like? Can you describe it more specifically? It's so overwhelming. Where you're, you're inside the essence. of I you had a lot of I mean they're not your words

but the the Native American Tonka whatever Wakananka yeah the the Lakota definition of the great mystery of God that's not a personification at all it's not an old man with a beard I never once thought it was a person since I got back

into it after this night I never thought it was a person never thought it was a man never in Ayad they say like mother It's never been gendered to me. Somebody told me that that started in the early 2000s, gendering what I call the central creation force. You're just like, oh, oh. It was, I opened my eyes and it was right as of the Lost Ark,

the very end, before the faces melt, when the angels are just flying around. Which is a little terrifying when those angels are flying around. It's not pretty angels. Right, but it's also ill-gotten. So I think that covers. it um look and antiquities belong to american white people and i think that's the point of the movie um i've been at the british museum yeah exactly so it was just like a oh okay because i grew up catholic

altar boy church all that stuff for 12 years and you just end up church ends just being i kind of believe that most religious ceremonies in as we understand them nothing are pretty close to spiritless and they're a road production or like a high school production of the thing that you can experience. There is a central... That's a great way of putting it. They get...

There is a central creation force but it doesn't care about any of the things. It's like a community theater production of the Big Bang. Yes. And they do this and they're like, that's ayahuasca. The swing.

Yeah. Yeah, the small god. Yes. And you're like, this is lost in translation. There is a central creation force. Again, that I believe in and that I believe I've experienced. And it doesn't care what eat, doesn't care if you're gay, doesn't care how you pray, it doesn't care.

It doesn't. I talked to Pete Holmes about this recently where it's the central creation force that I've experienced isn't a person. So the idea of it having rules. Right. is silly. Before you even get into the rules, they're silly.

And the reading in Solum, like this, it's a force. It's a force. And then. So, but I have a couple questions, but talk me through what else you saw, witnessed, experienced, felt, how did it touch your heart?

You had some kind of, you touched the central creation force. Give us some more details. It felt like generations of humanity were kind of in this frequency. Like thousands of years. Which is, again, very close to the Native American idea because it's very hard. From what little I know of Native American spiritual experience, like ancestors are always brought in. It's always like God of our ancestors, connecting with the ancestors.

Yeah, I have a joke about the ancestors where I'm like, if you're black or brown or indigenous, go ahead and pray to your ancestors. White people do not pray to your ancestors. So I didn't see pasty. I have an ancestor, a great, great grandfather who literally killed Native Americans by the score in North Dakota and Minnesota.

So I'm not going to pray to his spirit. You're double fucked by that because you can't pray to the natives and you can't pray to the guy who killed. I'm screwed. So you can have a podcast. You're in a tough spot. You're in a tough fight.

So it felt like that. It felt like that. It felt like, it just felt like an, a way bigger picture. Did you hear anything? Did this central creative force speak to you in any way? I've never heard anything. I've never, uh, experience like what happens a lot of times after these ceremonies is everyone shares and it's everyone's trying to out.

And I felt like the angels. Yeah, everyone's trying to out revelation and how special their experience was. Yeah. I don't have anything I can point to as, especially not an Iowa A couple times ago. But how do you know that there's a central creation force from doing a drug? Couldn't you have someone who's an atheist said like, well, you took a drug and it lit up this one part of your brain

that made you believe that there was some force outside of yourself? Yeah, I'm totally willing to accept that that could also be true. Yeah. It sure doesn't feel like it. What is your connection to this central creative force? since iwaska what is how does that work on a daily basis on a weekly basis do you communicate with it are you able to touch it in meditation is there is there an aspect of prayer have you had glimpses of it in nature in in beautiful lovemaking in in witnessing i am more loving i am more loving i'm

funnier uh this is after the dmt too which is eight months of like you know there was a couple days where I'm like, I think I'm going to have to kill myself. It's like two years ago. I was like, I can't, I can't bear this because I was awake and I was half here and half there. Yeah. So you meant you had to kill yourself during that process because it was so horrific. It was so I wouldn't have wished it on Hitler. I remember thinking that. Like I wouldn't wish this on Adolf Hitler. I've heard that about ketamine and K-holes I've heard about

that people feeling that exact I've done ketamine I did ketamine Trin and also I didn't didn't work for me but it was

it was just I had the thought am I in God's imagination shit that's just way past where you're supposed to be you are in God's imagination we all are

that's a beautiful way of putting it I don't right but I think it's real so and I think it is physically here. It is a physical thing. So I don't think, I think it's like your, you guys weren't in Ricky's

imagination. The British cast was, kind of, but like it's, it's tangible. It's actual. That's the first time that Ricky Jervase has ever been compared to a God he doesn't believe in. Well, Ricky doesn't believe in it. He believes himself, which to him is the same thing. There is a Hindu idea of a God that every time it blinks its eyes, there's a new universe. that's created. You know, there's the idea could God, there's an Ursula Kela Gwynn book. I think it's the dark side of the shadow of that something,

people will put it in the comments below, where this guy lives in his dreams, his dreams come true and he comes in manifest and he lives inside of his dreams. Could we all be in the living dream? Yeah, I just think it gets to, I don't have the talent for sci-fi that you do. And I don't, I don't like,

it's like when people go, it's a simulation. chat the fuck up. I just don't. It's not helpful for me to think like it's simulation. It's almost a form of conspiracy theory to me where it's a simulation. So I'm not responsible for what I do and I'm being fucked. I'm being manipulated.

It's like, no, I believe this is actual and we make choices and there are consequences and I have a car and I'm here. You have a black Tesla. I do. Thank you. Day to day, a lot of it is in my nervous system. I've had so many people come up and be like, you're lighter. I got better on stage because I'm 10% lighter.

I get bigger laughs than I've ever gotten because I'm 10% lighter from I-Waskan DMT. I believe. It's made me fall in love easier. It gives me a little distance from my nervous system, from my reactive nervous system, a little bit. I yell less. I'm less like generally angry. I can watch myself more. And like kind of what are you doing?

What would you have been like on this podcast? Angrier. For three or four years ago. And would you have been a more judgy like who is this guy? Like oh, this guy wants to talk with spirituality. No, I just wouldn't. No. I mean.

Sitcom actor. Would you have been kind of like? I would have been just generally angrier. Do you connect with this power at all? Even in nature and something? I bring that up because like I do meditation. pretty much daily, and I have this little bench out in my backyard, and I live in a really privileged place.

I live in a really nice house with the beautiful trees. Thank you. Sometimes I just can't meditate. I just can't do it. I'm just like, I can't fucking do this. And then I just sit and I just look. And there's a hummingbird, and there's a sunlight streaming through a 50-year-old olive tree, and there's a flower blooming,

and I hear a cricket, and I am able to be, be like, I'm with God. This beauty, this majesty, this mystery. It almost makes me cry. It's just so beautiful. And then I just get to sit in witness of it. And that can be a kind of meditation. And maybe I'm, you know, there's, I've got hippie parents.

So there's, you know, I do have a hippie side of me. Yeah. Okay. So after the Iwaska and after the DMT. Is that just dumb? No. the now at since i've done those two things in a major way and kind of opened up something in myself um whenever i do mushrooms or mdMA it's that why do you keep doing them how long are you

going to keep doing these hallucinogens i don't know i the in a weird way it kind of feels like upkeep meaning i get a lot it's a continuation of that spirit and that or that channel and I get almost more from MDMA than I've got from Iowa skin DMT. From MDMA, I've gotten my understanding of like, oh, this is, nature is God. And I had another couple big things from MDMA that I am like, that are shareable, whereas the, the IS stuff is just more in your body. one of them was I have I'm a grudge holder and one day on MDMA I was able to release all of my grudges with ease with absolute ease right and then the next day I was like why was that so easy for me and it was because I was flooded with dopamine oxytocin the other one and the other feel good chemical so it was easy to

for me to forgive people. It was like I was just an easy thing. Like some people are temperamentally more forgiving. I would argue because they have better chemicals. I realize the reason I'm so sort of obsessed with justice and fairness and retribution is because I don't, those are the chemicals I have. I have, you know,

cortisol and like more negative ones. And the way cortisol to me organizes itself is vengeance, righteousness. Those are sort of like the smiles of cortisol is like that organizational thing. So that got me to, I don't even believe what I think I believe. It's just what the chemicals are telling me, I believe.

Every day. The only thing that this kitchen serves is mercury sandwiches. And I just have tried to every morning remind myself, that these are just chemicals. This isn't even a set belief system because on Friday I was vengeful. Saturday I totally forgave everyone. Yeah, totally forgave everyone.

I've also gotten a thing where I've just been because I just like wrote a will, like a legal will in the case I should, and the unlikely event and the impossibility that I die. Can I have one thing? Yeah. In your will. Can I have one thing?

Yeah. Will you just put like a plate? Yep. A plate. or something or like a salad fork or i left chapelle a dollar just because it's fucking hilarious it's hysterical it's hilarious that's hysterical so that's been death has just been on my mind a lot and i and then one time on mdma i heard a voice you're going to die soon and i was like yeah what are you talking about oh like yo creative cost and they're like no no no it's fine it's

fine it's fine and what i've come to believe may it's potentially all in my imagination like how Very likely it's all my imagination. Let's put all of those apology statements aside. Chemicals. All could be imaginary. We get it. Caviots. But what I've come to believe is

if you don't enjoy this more, we're going to kill you. And it's been an interesting approach where every day I write in a, hey, you are so, you're having a 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1%. percent human experience. And you're a fucking asshole

if you don't see that and appreciate it. And if you don't start, we're going to kill you. So it's like the movie Speed. But I have to enjoy myself. You have to. It's like a setup for a movie. It's like a Jim Carrey movie from the 90s. Like if you don't enjoy yourself every day,

you're going to explode. Yes. Yeah, that's basically. And so he's like every day, Jim Carrey's Like, yeah, juggling, fire eating and going on a roller coaster. Yeah. But can't you pray to this? What is stopping you from praying to this cosmic, beautiful, creative forms?

I don't, because I don't, because I have everything. Commune, commune. I have everything. But I'm not saying that. Praying doesn't mean give me more. Praying is connecting. I see the writing in the journal as a form of prayer. It's a form of appreciation.

Okay. Am I gamifying it? Yeah. But I also were of wristband. shocked me so I smiled. Like, you know, I believe that I need, people need, like, parameters and need motivators and need a reason to do, a reminder, because it's a very easy reminder. You might walk around being like, I'm so bummed today.

I think I'm so bummed and I better stop or they're going to kill me. That's incredible. No, it is really funny. I was watching this documentary last night with my wife and it's one of the most powerful and devastating things I've ever seen is called Beyond Utopia. It's basically about North Koreans trying to get out of North Korea. And I had a similar thought. It wasn't like, oh, you're going to die.

But it's like, Rain, you cannot fucking complain about anything. Because you, by the luck of the lottery, got born into suburban Seattle. And they have ended up in Hollywood. And you haven't been born in North Korea. And the starvation, the torture, the brainwashing. Like, just roll of the dice. That could have been me. And feel joy and spread joy.

Go to it. Get a have at it. The odds of a life like yours or mine. Yeah. Like you said, there's all those stats about. One percent of one percent of one percent. Yeah, those stats about just being a just being born a human baby.

And then you follow this dream or talent and you end up here. And also we're weird looking. Come on. I don't identify as a weird looking. You know what's funny about I don't. I, when I, I've been watching my special for three weeks. I'm not unhandsome. You, what, here's the thing is, we look like something.

I can draw you. I mean that sincerely. You could be at Knott'sberry Farm and do a sketch of me. Yeah, like, I, like, Chris Rock's not good looking, Dave's not good looking. But you know what they look like. Okay. And that's kind of the name of the game. That is kind of a, it's, and then add talent, charisma.

It's memorable. Yeah. The other day I said to my wife, you are so interesting and she goes that's not a compliment and I said

it absolutely it's it is actually the best compliment that you ever give someone that they are my wife is deeply deeply fucking interesting yeah but it's very hard

to appreciate I have a it's kind of a joke that's not ever going to be good enough but church is every week because we need it every week and there's

There's churches every other block because that's about how long church lasts. You leave church and you're, you know what? I'm going to be a rar. And then you just get, you just. And then by two blocks that you're like, fuck everyone. All right, church. I'm, you know, I'm going to be a good. You're sucked into the cortisol.

Yeah. And. Well, Arthur Brooks goes to mass every single day. The older I get, the more I agree with Muslims. Five times a day. Yeah. That's about right. Yeah.

They still forget. Yeah. By the third hour. They're like, what the fuck? But it's a good idea. Yeah. It's no one's, you know, I'm sure they have all the hallmark. They forget.

They forget. What would stop Neil Brennan from instead of bowing to Mecca five times a day? Bowing to, acknowledging, surrendering to, what did you call it? The central creation force. The central creation force five times a day. What would stop you from doing that? Nothing. Nothing.

There's no reason why I should do that. What would that look like? An alarm? What would follow? What would the ritual, the ceremony, the... I think I would probably say, please help me appreciate this. Please help me experience more joy. Please help me understand how fortunate I am.

Can you try that for one day and get back to me just for one day? I never thought of it before. And let me know how that works just for one day. Yeah. Five times in a day. You can set an alarm on your... I'll try to guess where you are in the world. and I'll pray in that direction.

You're Mecca. You're my Mecca. Oh, wow. You're Medina. You're somewhere between. I'm north off the 101. That's all you need to know. Great.

That's a great north star. But yeah, I think everyone should. One of my favorite books that I'm always trumpeting is a book by Anne Lamat. She's in recovery. She's Christian. She's hysterical. She wrote a book called Help, Thanks, Wow.

And those are the three kinds of prayers. Help, Thanks, and Wow. You can ask for help. You can say creative cosmic force, help me do this or protect this family member from this or please help with this. But you can also say, thank you. I'm the 1% of the 1% of the 1% of the 1%. Oh my God.

Thank you, beautiful cosmic force, but you can also just say wow. And maybe that's what it is, five times of you saying, wow. Yeah. And all of my help that I need is saying, wow. Do you know what I mean? Like I need help for getting to, to thanks and wow. Because I don't know if I'm especially programmed or humans are,

but, you know, we're scanning for threats. Yeah. We're looking for slights. We're looking for changes in people's facial. Yeah. We're wired to, for anxiety. We talk about this all the time in the book and various interviews. Anxiety kept a human species alive.

Yeah. That's why we're here. That's why we've been here for 100,000 years. Because our anxiety. Does your body think you have enough money? Does my body think that? Think you have enough money? Yes.

So you're... I've never had a money thing. I've had a please love me thing. Got it. Does your body think you're being loved enough? I struggle with that on a daily basis. Yeah. And I struggle with all of it.

I'm saying it's, you know, I've asked people sometimes like, how much money do you need? Well, there's that famous quote by Rockefeller who said, when asked by a journalist, how much money is enough? and he said just a little bit more. Yeah, I've heard it's twice what I have now. We're wired to live in just a little bit more. Well, it's most of our identities is the, you know, you're successful.

When people look at you, they go, that guy's successful. I wish I could lose 20 pounds. You could. I'm not willing to make the sacrifice that that would entail. In closing, I think. it doesn't have to be, but I wish I had more day-to-day enjoyment, minute-to-minute enjoyment, appreciation. What's the other one?

Help, thanks, wow. Yeah. But I love the help that I need is just in more wow. Yeah, help me get more wow. Help me get more wow. Even though it's right here. It's in the title. It is hard.

I hope you're able to find more wow without the help of psychedelics. but maybe that's my own personal agenda and you do you babe and everything's working and it's so groovy but I share a real caution my worry is that because it's becoming more and more and more

and more mainstream and there's this positivity bias no one talks about the downside no one says hey I love this stuff and it almost made me kill myself I'm better off coming out on the other side of it but I'm very aware that people do

I would say I was like pre-psychotic was it worth it? If it was, it was by the slimmest margin. I don't think I would do what I did again. It's one of the reasons I really wanted you on because you walk that line between just hilarity jokes but also like you share

a lot of... Overshare. You overshare the deep as dark as parts of any human experience. But let's go back in time a little bit. I don't want to talk about the whole Chappelle show thing, although this audience, I don't know how much they know, but Neil was the producer, co-creator of Chappelle Show, which became almost instantly like the biggest show

in cable television history. And then Chappelle left. On DVD. Literally on, it was the highest selling TV show ever on DVD. But I would watch it on the actual LIMTV. We would wait and, oh, my God, new one. It was comedy center. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, what's funny is I, we're not directly linked, but, but my buddy Mike Scher was writing for S&L. And then I think after the first season of Pell Show, he moved to L.A. to work on the American remake of the office. And it was like, all right. And it was kind of like, good luck. Okay, yeah. Yeah, it was like, okay, it seems like you're not going to be able to do that. But it turns out they did. it did okay but the thing that and that story has been told a lot about Chappelle leaving and blah blah blah

but the thing that i find really inspiring and puzzling is you are literally at the very top of your game as far as tv writer tv producer and you could have instantly gone over to SNL or created another sketch show or just become a TV producer. After a period of time, which I want to hear about, you kind of reinvented yourself by going back to your roots as a stand-up and doing stand-up comedy and coffee houses for 30 people to kind of build sets of material and kind of cut your chops, hone your chops, and become a professional stand-up comic. And not only that, like you have risen to the...

top echelon where if you ask average stand-up comic on the street, you're absolutely in the top 10. And that transition, all while battling serious mental health issues such as a low depression, and we'll talk about that later on. It's absolutely remarkable story. I don't think I've heard that before in showbiz. And I want to dig into that a little bit. Cool. Yeah, so the show ends. The show ends. 2005. You're already. Eddie dealing with mental health, depression, alienation, loneliness, disconnection, on a lot of different levels. I done stand-up maybe a handful of times before he left and maybe 50 times. So over 10 years or something.

So I directed a movie, didn't do good. And then, but I was doing stand-up then. And I just realized, like, the thing about doing stand-up is you, in proper showbiz, there's just a ton of people telling you you're not funny and your ideas aren't good. I was like, I'm pretty sure I'm funny. I'm pretty sure I'm funny. And then so that was sort of the impetus. And then just not struggle. Well, yeah, I guess I struggled.

Like I wasn't, I didn't really know how to do it, do it. And it takes six to ten years to really understand what you're doing. I'm still getting better at understanding it. So 15 years into it to 16th. So it was like emceeing kind of like the grown, going, driving to Irvine, driving to Brea, doing 10 minutes or 15 minutes or whatever. I think there was a notion that I was like kind of an interloper or like, you're just doing this, doing it for what?

It's not, it's, I'm as embarrassed as anyone. Maybe I'm more embarrassed than you because I already did a thing. Which there's some kind of dark night of the soul that led you to do it because I'm really fascinated by someone, you know, at the top of the game, uh, in one field. you go to a connected field, a related field. It's not like you went into dentistry and starting at the bottom. Well, yeah, but it's Michael Jordan going to baseball, but it's, but it's more like Michael Jordan going and, you know,

joining the Harlem Globetrotters and being the very best at spinning a basketball or something like that. Yeah. Well, that it was, it was. Because there's no pay. Yeah. There's, there's, uh, zero. There's really zero pay for years.

That's true. And it was more people in proper showbiz thought, oh, it was all Dave, huh? Hmm. So it was like, and I didn't want to be like, I'll tell you what I wrote because me and David did not say what we wrote. Was it really like, I'm going to prove them wrong? So there was an element I'm going to show them.

Yeah. And that's okay. Yeah. That's part of my acting career was like, Oh, you don't think I can. Yeah. Yeah, I was rejected at every turn. And I'll also say, I don't like show business.

I don't like, I don't like the people. People are you going to do another movie? I'm like, I hope not. Do you want to join me in beekeeping and ceramics? No, that's the problem. I don't have a pot to piss. Are you making pots, piss pots? I don't like showbiz.

I don't like movie producers. I don't like the tone. I don't like the power structure. I don't like the, most of it's not. good. It's incredibly arrogant people. And most, it's like, do you guys see what you're making? And so I was

kind of happy to be, you do a movie and then it doesn't go good. That's pretty much it. It's an all in bet. Yeah. So I like homemade stuff. I like doing stuff. No one's around. I make it. I show it somebody they think. There's a punk rock

DIY element to stand up of like, I'm going to write these jokes. I'm going to go get these laps. I'm going to do it on my own. And I don't have to like pitch it to agents. No. And it's funny. I'll just tell a story. And I don't know if we'll use it or not.

I'll cut it out. I spent, thanks so much, I spent years writing a screenplay with a friend of mine who's a brilliant writer and he's got movie options. He's got plays going to Broadway. He's a delightful human being. I send it to my agents. It's for me to direct. It's a horror science fiction movie, which seems to be commercial these days.

I'm so excited about it. And I literally have my. team meeting and they're like yeah you should just find some a list actors and try and get them attached to the movie. I was like, is that, is that it? Is that your advice? Well yeah, no, exactly. So that's, that's it.

You want me to just do it myself. I'm just gonna package and put together this movie by myself. Okay, thanks so much. Thanks for your time. Thanks for reading the script. right but it's similar to when you book a job or whatever and they go well it's here's the offer and you go all right what's the counter and they're like ah there's no counter if you have a quote which is generally what your final salary on the office was that'll be around what you

expect to make on other things that you're the lead on or one of the leads and then they got They can't meet it. You go, so what are we, are you going to get them to meet it? Ah. You go, so what are you doing? This is what they have budgeted. Yeah. What are you doing?

Yeah. And it's full of people like that. They're taking phone calls. And I would argue most good stuff is just a person, two people. And maybe they don't have good boundaries. Maybe they're working too hard. But, you know, South Park comes to mind. Like, just, they just do their thing in the warehouse.

Yeah. and they don't everything's all set and they then they go home or whatever they do so so I don't really like it I didn't want to write I didn't want to just be stuck in a room that's of the other part of why I did stand up is because I didn't like you'd want to join another writer's room I don't like 14 hours a day with some yeah yeah yeah which I like comedy writers but I mean I am a comedy writer but I didn't want to just sit there in the flannel and the and just like eating snacks and sort of the way me and Dave did it was I would I would have an index index card it's it's my whole life of just like ideas I'd write ideas and then he

go hey yeah put on the card something something I go okay and then we we write for a couple days every few weeks but it wasn't organized in any way wow it was just very disorganized and so that's kind of what I'm used to and anything good I've done has been do it here, improve it, improve it, improve it, improve it. Well, didn't Louis C.K. do that very effectively

when he was doing his TV show? He said, like, I'm going to do my TV show. I'm going to write it. I'm going to direct it. I'm going to produce it. I don't want any notes. Yep. And that was doing pretty well for a while.

I think everyone in our side of Hollywood were just really like, wow, that's really admirable. I've known Louis. I was a PA on his. first short in 1991. Wow. So I've been around Louis and Dave and John Stewart and all these people and I see that it's pretty, you just do it.

It's just the best way to do it. Anything else is a factory. And it gets watered down and it gets even, Chappelle one time was like, even if it's bad, it's our bad. Yeah. Which is, which I agree with. Which you can live with. Yeah.

I had a real breakthrough about show business a few years back. And it was very, very simple. And I wonder if there's a spiritual truth that underlies it, which is constant rejection, minimalization, being shot down, disappointment, nonstop. And it was just a very, very clear still voice inside of me said, Rain, you signed up for this. And it immediately just lifted so much.

It's like, and that's one of my very favorite. favorite jokes is like, how do you make an actor unhappy? Give them a job. But show business is filled with people like venting about their disappointment and and flagellating about, you know, rejection and, you know, being shot down. And it's like, well, then don't be in show business because there's a lot. If you're a CPA, you're not going to experience rejection, you know? Right. And you're not going to experience huge payouts. You're not going to experience residuals. You're not going to, you're not going to experience a lot of upside. I always say that.

And adoration and whatnot. Yes. It's kind of like being at Vegas. And it's like, well, then don't be in Vegas if you don't want to. It's a more, I think, spiritually mature way of looking at like, well, suck it up. But you chose to be in this, in this milieu. And so that just, that helped me a great deal. It's like, oh, yeah, rejection.

Disappointment. Well, it's again, the rejection's coming. It's like my showbiz record is. like three and nine you know it's like it's not but the three are get you through the nine yeah but it's what even or two or one or whatever it is that's great it's a losing record and you're still one of the most successful people doing it mine is literally like two and 20 yeah and you I don't know basically every movie I've done no one has ever watched or cared about yeah yeah I I'm in the same boat.

I got a couple of TV shows that did pretty well. Yeah. There we go. Yep. And you're a real winner. Yep. I'm doing 20 and I'm a real winner. Yeah.

You're like, yeah. And you get recognized everywhere you go. I got a nice podcast studio. Like yeah, a little country, shabby shake. We have talked about a number of different things. And we've talked a lot about depression, anxiety, even suicide. panic attacks, low self-esteem, cortisol, struggle, et cetera, et cetera. We've also talked about joy and your seeking of joy.

So let's leave it on an up note. How do we find increased pleasure that we can share that connects us to that great creative force? It's obvious, but you kind of have to believe it in the first place. there's things that in my life Hassam Nanaj said one time he was like you know because when I was an atheist

he'd be like look at your life how can you be an atheist and I agree with them he's like if this is not normal and even being an atheist and doing Chappelle show

and a bunch of stuff and there is it always was there always was a spirit in it or that it drove it and it kind of weird like the unknowable the native thing

the unknowable unspeakable inevitable force they're all I always had it so I think connecting to it I'm not a person that gets runners highs or or like you know endure like I just from doing that I get but if there are things in your life that you do that feel I didn't manifest anything

but something something things are kind of in you that you have to birth. There's a, there was a quote I read a long time ago, like under a painting and it said the purpose of one's life is to give birth to themselves. And a lot of our lives, and maybe it's egotistical or something, but it is tuning into what you,

the suspicion you have about yourself. and trying to make it actual. That to me is very God-connected. It's achievement-based, but it's also God-connected. And one of my things is, like, I would like to be more joyful because I think it's good for the earth. Joy is a service. You are giving joy to others by making them laugh with your specials.

And I can make them laugh more, laugh more. if I were more joyful, I believe. So it's not, again, it's a little self-serving, but I think connecting to a quiet part of yourself and trying to honor that. I love what you said about that deep suspicion you have about yourself. Yeah.

Honoring that and letting that give birth to your full potential. Yeah. That's kind of a core belief, even when I didn't believe in God. I was believing in God, even though I wasn't, you know, doing anything. Or I didn't think I did. But I was maybe behaving in God.

How many miracles brought us to this situation where we're having this conversation behind these two mics in this beautiful little shabby-sheek kitchen set, having gone through what we've been through, it's infinite miracles, infinite miracles. Yeah, you can't, it's incalculable. It's almost, it's one of those things where it's almost not possible to even appreciate it. I'm trying, but some of it's so insane.

It's how, how, how? Thanks, Neil. Thanks for coming on the old soul boom. Of course. Of course. Goodbye. Good night, everybody. Good night, everybody.

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