Soul Boom - Rainn Tries Getting Rhett & Link Back in Church: Exploring Spiritual Deconstruction

Episode Date: February 25, 2025

What happens when two lifelong best friends and former evangelical missionaries begin questioning everything they once believed? In this deeply personal episode, Rhett & Link (Good Mythical Morning, Wonderhole, Ear Biscuits) down with Rainn Wilson to discuss their spiritual deconstruction, their struggles with judgment, and how their perspectives on faith, God, and love have evolved. They dive into their past in the evangelical world, what made them step away, and whether they still believe in something beyond themselves. SPONSORS: Stamps.com: Get a 4-week trial, free postage, and a digital scale 👉 https://www.stamps.com/soulboom Thanks to Stamps.com for sponsoring the show! Pretty Litter: 20% OFF & FREE cat toy! 👉 https://prettylitter.com/soulboom Wonderhole Wonderhole combines docu-comedy, sketch comedy, original music, visual FX, and celebrity cameos. Rhett & Link, hosts of the most-watched daily show on the Internet, Good Mythical Morning, and founders of Mythical Entertainment, premiered the new comedy series in August on their original Rhett & Link YouTube Channel. MERCH OUT NOW! https://soulboom.com/store God-Shaped Hole Mug: https://bit.ly/GodShapedHoleMug Sign up for our newsletter! https://soulboom.substack.com SUBSCRIBE to Soul Boom!! https://bit.ly/Subscribe2SoulBoom Watch our Clips: https://bit.ly/SoulBoomCLIPS Watch WISDOM DUMP: https://bit.ly/WISDOMDUMP Follow us! Instagram: http://instagram.com/soulboom TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@soulboom Sponsor Soul Boom: [e-mail] Work with Soul Boom: [e-mail] Send Fan Creations, Questions, Comments: [e-mail] Executive Produced by: Kartik Chainani Executive Produced by: Ford Bowers, Samah Tokmachi Companion Arts Production Supervisor: Mike O'Brien Voicing Change Media Theme Music by: Marcos Moscat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You're listening to soul. So let's cut here. It was so great, you guys, really. Lots of fun. I'm so excited by this conversation. I'm so excited for this episode. This is exactly what I wanted Soul Boom to be. This is exactly what I wanted to be.

We can go into theology. I knew we would do it. We can talk about butt plugs. We can talk about creativity and making content. Butt plugs are not in the Bible that I know of. Actually, Hey there, it's me, Rain Wilson. And I want to dig into the human experience.

I want to have conversations about a spiritual revolution. Let's get deep with our favorite thinkers, friends, and entertainers about life, meaning, and idiocy. Welcome to the Soul Boom podcast. The house right above ours, we're kind of slope of a hill, burnt entirely to the ground. The house right below ours, and there's all on the path of the wind, house right below ours, burnt to the down of the studs. We lost two rooms. A lot of smoke, soot damage, lost a lot of trees, vegetation. The craziest thing is that all the fences melted. Chain link fences. Whoa. You don't think of chain link fences as melting. They were like they were made out of like silly putty and laid on the ground.

It was just, it's just like you just, and like for hundreds of yards of chain link fence. It's just, it's, wow. Lost a lot of trees, vegetation, a lot of ash and soot around. Of course, we haven't had much rain. And we don't want to get too much rain. You don't want to get one of those big-ass rain storms and have, you know, eight inches of rain over two days because then landslides.

It is this very curious spiritual conundrum of, like, incredible gratitude that we didn't lose more stuff, that we didn't lose more of our house. And at the same time, like, this is a colossal pain in the ass. So how do you live with two things being true at the same time? Like, this sucks and I'm so grateful at the same time. That's a spiritual conundrum.

We talked about this a couple of times. We haven't, like, individually, like, we haven't had to deal with, you know, a serious illness, like, personally or, like, the loss of a house or whatever. But I think that there is this thing that sort of sits on both of our shoulders, which is coming from the background that we come from, where the old us would be judging the current us for our backsliding and debauchery of no longer being an evangelical Christian.

And you think, I've heard you talk about this maybe more than me, which is just like, you never let go of this thing that's like, am I going to be, even if you don't believe, am I going to be judged? Am I going to get cancer? Am I going to lose something? Oh, like literally like, smitten.

So I will be brought to my knees. Now, I actually think that I've heard you talk about that more than I've considered it. Yeah, I have a very close relationship with judgment, you know, growing up in an environment of an all-seeing God who was frequently demanding confession. I grew very accustomed to that. And then I think over the past decade of moving out of some of those beliefs cognitively, it's still very, it's all, it's all baked in here in terms of feeling almost like feeling more comfortable in an environment of judgment. So I'll assume judgment, like from my wife. I care very deeply about what she thinks of me, her opinion of me.

She loves you. She loves me. So much, you have no idea. I don't, yeah, because I'll project this judgment on her. She texts me all the time how much, how bad she feels and how, wait a second, this cut off. Really? But please, go ahead. No, no, no, I would welcome her talking to you more often.

Because let her judge you a little bit. Not really. No, she doesn't, she's not actually judged me. I just think she is because I felt comfortable in that position. And that was, I think that's the paradox you're talking about in a different way, I guess, is that I grew comfortable with a level of judgment that wasn't comfortable. It's just you learn to, you get used to it. And then I'm in a space now where I think technically it's not there.

I'm not actually experiencing nearly as much judgment as I did in my upbringing, but I'm having to learn how to exercise the freedom that I have in my worldview, if that makes sense. That does make sense. There's so many questions springing to mind, and this is, you know, one of the topics I wanted to cover, and we'll jump right in. We're jumping right in.

Let's do it. We'll jump right in to the spiritual deconstruction that you guys, underwent three or four years ago and you caught a lot of shit for it. I was reading a lot of stuff online. I was watching a lot of pastors and their articles and videos about y'all like having, I don't want to say leaving the evangelical church, but, you know, reassessing your relationship to Christianity. I would say that both of you consider yourself Christians at this point. No? No. No. You're not Christians? No. Okay. No. Wow. I miss. the boat there.

Because I was thinking of it. We don't go around just saying that all the time. I'm not a Christian, I'm not a Christian. They were like, we'll say it like once a year on our podcast and when we broke the seal on it, it was over the course of like. Don't use the word seal. That's in the book of Revelations.

When we broke the seventh seal on it. The four horsemen of the producers of our podcast rode into the room and said, are you sure you want to share that? On the fiery sort of the microphone that you're speaking into. Okay, so that's deep, because that's not really what I got from, I was watching your videos, and I saw it more as like a repudiation of certain aspects

of evangelical Christianity. And it was that. And it, but could not being a Christian have just a love and belief in Jesus Christ and the teachings of the Bible and be in alignment with, you know, maybe other aspects of Protestantism? It could, yes. I was actually excited to talk to you about this. Okay.

Specifically, because it's, you know, I could tell because I came in and I was like, have you ever had any tests like this and you're like, we left the church? Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, just because you're a man of faith. I am. And even though I'm a Baha'i, I consider myself a Christian because my life. love of Jesus, and especially, and I've talked about this before with Alex O'Connor and other

interviews, like the Red Letter Bible, like what Jesus taught, what he said, what he did, being a little different than what rose up hundreds and hundreds of years after his life. So in that sense, I consider myself a Christian and the beauty of the teachings and the metaphors of mythology. And I would agree with you on that. So if we're talking about subscription to the teachings of Jesus, then I'm a Christian. Okay. But because being a Christian meant something very specific to us and what we considered a Christian was someone who had, you know, specific faith in the person of Jesus as the, you know, the offering for our sins, right?

The God in the flesh who sacrificed himself so that we could have a reconcile a relationship with God. Like, that's what a Christian was. I think that in many ways it's still kind of what a Christian is to most people. Yeah. And because that's what it kind of communicates, I say, oh, I believe in the, I agree with the teachings of Jesus. But the person of Jesus, the nature of Jesus,

and like what is fiction, what's fact? I'm actually not, I'm not really that concerned with what's fact and what's fiction in terms of certain aspects of it, right? I spent a lot of time in that world of like trying to figure out what I thought about that. Yeah. But I think that ultimately the rub for me at this point is when it comes to the aspect of faith, it's like I consider myself a theist, I'm not, or at least some kind of, you know, I believe in a source or a force or something.

Are you able to pray? At times. But that is kind of a, that is more of a recent development where I'm just like, I can just, I can just do what I used to do, which is, let's pray right now. Which is just, oh God. Which is, which is just taught. My answer is no, but I'm not able to pray. Because it's funny, because we had this thing that we used to do called a day with the Lord, right?

Because we were on, we were all in, we were on staff at Camposurcée for Christ, we were missionaries for a couple of years. We trained people in evangelism. And one of the things you had. You're looking more and more like Jesus, the further and further you've gotten away from Jesus. I know how to explain that. Yeah, I think that validates he's making himself into his own God.

But we had these things called a day with the Lord. Yeah. And it was actually sanctioned, you know, that you had to do this monthly or whatever. Like you had to have a day where you were like, I'm going to go have a day with the Lord. And it was essentially, I found a journal entry of like, by the way, I think that's a great idea. It is a great idea.

Why not have a day with the Lord? Yeah. But we have a day with video games or a day we just stay in and you just binge watch the Supreme. why not have a day with the Lord? But I looked at this long, just like I had written pages and pages on this one particular day with the Lord. And I thought to myself like, okay, the current me is like, I look at this and what I see it as is most likely a conversation with myself. It was a conversation with myself, but it was a very important conversation with myself.

And whether or not I was communicating with something that was outside of and beyond my, I feel like I've been a little bit inoculated to that idea, and I'm spending a little bit less time thinking about, like having to be certain about what I think about that, my relationship to it, if that makes sense. And so, you know, I'm interested, I read your book, and so... Oh, gosh, thanks so much.

And so I... I didn't read yours. But I've seen a ton of your videos. Yeah, I've been a lot more videos than books. But the aspect of... of like the idea of a spiritual revolution, whether that be personal, cultural, both end. Trying to figure out what it is that,

you know, I'm in a position right now where I don't feel like I have to believe in a grand narrative in order to have a spiritual life. But I'm kind of like, this is what I'm sort of I'm experimenting with. I'm not like an advocate for that. I'm just saying that's where I'm at.

That's where you're at. What about you, Link? I'm more afraid to, dive into a spiritual practice because I think it will bring up all the things. I'm afraid that it will bring up the negative things that I've shed or that in some ways I'm still shedding. And I think the judgment thing is a big piece of it for me that I'm unpacking in therapy still for a couple of years.

I'm a very systemized thinker, and I do like to know a way. Like when I was in, I was all in because it provided a sense of security. It provided my particular faith provided answers for me and gave me tracks to run on that reduced my anxiety in one sense. But then, again, my day-to-day anxiety was reduced. like, okay, I've taken care of hell. I've taken care of existential crises. Give you a little meaning, a little focus. But my relationship with perceived judgment was overblown in comparison to grace.

And I think that, you know, each individual interacts with the environment, spiritual, and otherwise that they're in. And I know for me that there's things, I have to. tendencies to latch on so deeply and in a way that I'll suffer. And so I'm trying to find the right time. I believe there will be a right time for me to start to re-approach my spirituality. And I'm not there as much. There is a pattern in our friendship that Rett tends to be on the, he's pushing the frontier. He's asking questions that, his worldview and his belief,

and then I'm like one of his top two sounding boards of his entire life. So his deconstruction, I caught it. You know, it's contagious. So I welcome the questions that he's asking now and the way that he's embracing more mystery and openness and instead of certainty. And I do, I like that.

I like that for him. And if it works out for him, I'm sure it'll probably rub off on me. Right. And I'm okay with that. And I actually feel like I'm... So if he's the new Jesus, you're the disciple. For better or worse, I mean, that is what happens.

And it's like... You're Peter. I'm Peter. You're going to give those pastors or something to run with. Oh, my goodness. They're always looking for something new to do a commentary video on.

Great. And I feel like it might, honestly, I've had to get a lot more secure about this dynamic that, well, does that mean I'm not my, you know, I respect people who their beliefs seem like they well up from within themselves and they're living their own truth, pardon the phrase, right? And I respect those people. But those aren't the only type of people in the world. And it's not as simple as being a leader or being a follower. Because for a while, I thought, well, I'm such a follower, isn't that something to be embarrassed by? And I think that it's different than that. I am on my own journey, I am my own individual, and I know, I don't take all of, all the bullshit he dishes out I don't take.

But I'm also not trying to- Because he is an artist at that too. Oh, come on. And I know the difference. I'm not proselytizing you at all. And you're not-prosite, yeah, but- Like, I don't have, like, one of the most, You don't have to direct it at me for me to receive it.

First of all, everybody has an agenda. You have your biases, you have an agenda, right? Everyone has it. But there's something super freeing. In the world that we were in, like when you sat down next to somebody on a plane, you heard that voice like you need to engage in a conversation with this person. Convert them.

You need to get to the gospel. You just need to plant a seed. You don't have to necessarily have a conversion here. Bring out your Bible. And so there's, There was a lot of guilt that entered every, and then when we got into this business of whatever this business is that we're in,

it's show business, baby. Call it what you like with your YouTubey kind of world, but you're in show business. And so like I remember, you know, early on because things started to kind of happen for us in like 2007, 2008 or whatever. And two things were happening at that point, because one thing that was happening was,

we had to leave staff with Campus Crusade in order to say yes to this TV hosting opportunity. And we were like, but this is great. This is, we're going to be lights. You can reach more lights in the world, whatever. At the same time, my faith was beginning to, had already begun to shift and crumble as I was kind of getting into like,

looking at sort of the foundational truths of Christianity. And so those two things were sort of unfolding. but one of the things that is great about not being certain is I don't feel that I can engage, but if I engage with somebody, like when I come and speak to you today, like ultimately what I'm interested in is like, you think about this stuff a lot, you've written a book about it, I want to know, I want to see where you're at. I'm not trying to change your mind. I want to see what you got for me.

I'll tell you where I'm at. You know what I'm saying? This is going to be the podcast where I convince the two of you to go back to calling you, calling yourself Christians. Hey, that'd be a good story. There's going to be a Baha'i converting to ex-evangelicals back to Christianity over the course of this conversation. All right, you've got a title. Bring it on. Fasten your seat belts. You have enough hair spray? I'm teasing. You guys have great hair. Like, seeing you in person's like, God damn. Mine is just like, it's pathetic. There's so much I want to say here, but you guys have so much to say too. First of all, it sounds a little bit like in a way you're

deprogramming yourselves from having been in a cult. It sounds like that. It sounds like that a little bit. And I do not want to say that evangelical Christianity is a cult. I don't want to say that at all. I know so many evangelicals and born-again's that are just filled with light and service and love. Absolutely. Absolutely make the world a better place.

But, you know, I'll just share for myself that. that, you know, I had my big falling out from my faith growing up and from God. And coming back to prayer was very, very difficult for me because it's in the groundwater that, and I call them in the book, Sky Daddy, this kind of idea of a judgmental Sky Daddy God kind of looking down at us like, oh, he masturbated.

He looked at porn. Or, you know, he did this, let's smite him. Hold on, what do you know about me? But like growing up behind, the idea of God was very, the unknowable essence and beauty and truth and light and goodness and the creative spark of the universe. But still culturally, this idea of God is in the groundwater. And it was really, really hard for me to pray,

especially when I was going through a lot of stuff. I was going through stuff with alcohol and addiction and anxiety and depression and just trying to like even be like, God, can you just help me out a little bit? Even that prayer was just so hard for me because I was sure God was just like, but as I just kept flexing that muscle a little bit and a little bit more and a little bit more

just kind of realizing like, Rain, that's your own limitation. That's a fictitious idea of God that you've created in the mind, that he's some kind of scowling-bearded, you know, judgmental, Santa Claus daddy looking down on you. Like that's obviously a fabrication. You're praying to the wrong God. Like that's an idol that needs to be smashed. Smash that idol and pray to light and love and forgiveness and grace and mercy and

which I truly believe as at the heart of what God is. There's a lot more to say. And I do want to convince you to come back to Christianity and I'll get there. but when I bring this up. The prayer thing, I have a question for you about that. Please, please. I have not been able to pray for, yeah, over a decade, maybe 15 years.

Wow. And then two weeks ago, you prayed. I prayed. Two weeks ago. I told you this. Oh, this is good. I told Christy this because I was thinking about my wife, Chris, she told me. She told me.

She told me to you. She's talking to you. Yeah. You know, she's going through something that was like, there's physical and mental aspects of it. Like, she's going through a tough challenge. And I've just found myself thinking about her. And I said, you know what? I'm going to pray for it.

That's something I would have done. And my next thought was. and then at least I'll tell her about it, and she'll get a kick out of it that I prayed. Like you're getting a kick out of the fact that I prayed. Like it was a surprise to you, right? I knew it would be a surprise to her. And so then I like, I was like, well, how do I do this?

Dear Lord. Please. I mean, it was in my brain. It wasn't, I didn't speak it out loud. Did you pray in Jesus' name? I just said, would you please help Christy going through, going through this, you know, just to give her some comfort. I just feel like I don't have anything that I can say to her

that's going to help. And my mind is just going 100 miles an hour as I'm doing this because there's like a part of me just like, don't you do this? And then there's a part of me that's like, well, what do you, is this even anything if you don't, what is prayer if you don't believe that you're talking to any, to an entity.

That's how I feel was that I was just doing it just to see what it would feel like. And I was like, well, I don't think it can hurt. And I also think, well, there's a form of like, I can't remember what it's called, like an empathetic meditation where you think about somebody, you put yourself in their shoes, you really go through this,

you step through a process of empathy. And I was, thinking, well, even if there's not an entity that's hearing me or that I believe is hearing me so they're not, or whatever the case is, I'm definitely fomenting empathy for my wife, and I think that's a good thing. And it fizzled out. I didn't have a good closer.

I didn't. No, what did I get? The prayer fizzled out? The prayer fizzled out because I started thinking all these things. And so I didn't give it in Jesus name, Rhett. Well, I was once told that if you don't say in Jesus' name, the prayer doesn't get on the rocket ship to get the house. Right. I mean, we kind of believe that.

I mean, and then I went and I put the closer on the story, I did go home and I told Christy, I was like, you know what I did today? She was like, what? I was like, I prayed for you. And maybe because of the look on my face, it seemed like I was expecting something. But she thought I was joking. I was like, no, I'm serious. I pray for you.

And then you're going through this, and I was like, it can't hurt. and I thought she was going to just laugh at me, but she was actually moved. Of course she was. It actually... I could have told you that she was going to be moved by that. Yeah, and I wasn't... I'm glad that I didn't know

because then I would have been like, I thought it was to be manipulative or something. So it worked on a level. I mean, maybe Christy is my new God. Is that what I'm concluding? That was an interesting application. Well, that's... Yeah, that was that a level.

No one went there. That was a left turn. I'll take that to therapy because that is something that I'm dealing with. I want to hear your take on this whole God thing. But what's very striking to me, and again, having a perspective of a Baha'i faith, when I kind of tiptoed my way back toward faith,

20 some years ago, one of the essential teachings of my faith tradition is called the independent investigation of truth, where what you are doing, you're on a spiritual quest, right? You grew up evangelical, you had this kind of spiritual deconstruction. You're really, you're dismantling it. There's these teachings about it.

I don't like. There's things about it. I'm still drawn to, I'm still drawn to an idea of God. I'm drawn to the teachings in life of Jesus Christ. That this is an essential part of one's spiritual journey. And not only that, one's spiritual obligation. So one of the things I love about the Baha'i faith is the fact that we're in, not supposed to be indoctrinated.

Like what you believe in, you have discovered for yourself. So every Baha'i kid can decide at 15 if they're gonna be a Baha'i or not. And that's between them and God. And their parents, in some ways, have nothing to do with it. Their community, their church has nothing to do with that.

This is a right and a responsibility to really dig in. Whereas in a lot of evangelical, communities, not all, and a lot of them, you know, questioning is not accepted. It's a, it's a, it's Satan, it's the devil whispering. It's a, it's a path to the dark side. But I would applaud even what you're doing with prayer. Like, I'm going to test this out a little bit. Dear God, please help Christy, oh, this is crazy. Oh my God. Am I really doing this? Is there a God? Yeah. Like that's, yeah. That's a natural part of the process. I think probably 80% of the people listening

in this podcast right now have experienced something like that. And the fact that you're sharing it is, is really fantastic. I have so much to say about the rocket ship to God from Jesus. Yeah, but when I bring this stuff up about, about God and prayer, what comes to your mind. So my, I think the only way I can tell you this is by contextualizing it in my story of why I no longer call myself a Christian, right?

So for me, this is the very quick and dirty version. How dirty? Are you talking about butt? So, so dirty. No, butt plugs. No, they're not. Butt plugs are not in the Bible that I know of. Actually.

Is there one in your an anus? No. With the jewel on? I'm just saying he does, it's the thing, never mind. I didn't mean to interrupt. I like that. I've always wanted Soul Boom to be a podcast where you can talk about God and butt plugs. Well, in the same conversation.

You've done it. So we're... It has been inserted into the conversation. That's good. Yeah, that's good. Go ahead, Rad. I'm sorry. Yeah.

Any further interruptions have to be but-block related. Okay. Don't hold it in. So I think that ultimately, the Christianity that I inherited, not just for my parents, but culturally that I inherited, right, is a post-enlightenment, sort of modern Christianity, which in many ways Christians took the bait of the Enlightenment. and Protestants especially, and we're like, we have to prove this.

And so we have to have an apologetic, we have to have a defense of our faith. We have to say that the Bible is true and everything that it speaks of, not necessarily literally true. There's there, you know, like, okay, there's like different views of like the days of creation or whatever, but ultimately there is some truth

and that it has been revealed in the Bible itself and in the person of Jesus. That's a huge claim. and the exclusive revelation of God is in the Bible and in the person of Jesus Christ, right? Like the main revelation, right? If you're Catholic, okay, there's church tradition, but whatever. It's the Bible is the main thing. So I took that as something that, if that's true, that's the most important thing to know, you know, in terms of knowledge.

And then when I began to really dig into that claim over the course of 20 years, really, starting in college, but then, you know, I've continued on doing that. I still do that. At some point, I became convinced that this was much more man than God, this enterprise, what had made it into the Bible and what we understood about Jesus. Even when we think about the central claim of Christianity, which is the death and resurrection, of Jesus, right? And you think about what we have in the four gospels. Well, Mark, the earliest gospel, we don't have any post-resurrection appearances. But then we have Matthew and we have Luke,

and then finally we have John written most recently. And in this gospel, we have Jesus claiming to be God. We didn't, if that, if Jesus claiming to be God in the flesh is such a central element of Christianity, how come the three other guys didn't decide to talk about this in an explicit way. And so basically, in looking at it, you see that there is, it feels like a religious movement. It feels like a, a framework that people created around a real person who said real things and some of those things are preserved or whatever. I got to this place where I was like, what am I having faith in? And I had to kind of push it all the way, because I was like, I can't decipher what parts of this are true or not. And I can't decipher whether, what's the

the difference between this faith and this faith over here and this faith, they all seem like the enterprise of man trying to figure out and add some structure to whatever this, and understanding to whatever this thing is, right? And so for me, that was disconnecting from it completely. I went through a little bit of an angry atheist phase or whatever, but just from a philosophical standpoint, the idea that there is some purpose and meaning and intention behind the universe

is, A, something I want to believe. I think I mostly believe it because I want to believe it. I find some of the arguments, you know, from design or the fact that there's something rather than nothing, some of the stuff you talk about in your book, I find somewhat compelling, but I can have like a really smart atheist sit down and break them down, and I'm like, well, you, okay, that's kind of convincing.

Then you can have a really smart theist come over here and be like, that's kind of convincing. Sure. So I find it's less about coming down on one side of the fence of that argument, because it's not like I'm going to be in the middle of a philosophical thought. and be like, find God in that, if that makes sense. I feel like if God exists, then connecting with that God is going to be something

that happens on a different level than just some rational thought. So that's where I find myself right now is, okay, what does spirituality look like? And I'm in the middle of reading a book by this woman, Brittany Hartley. She has a book called No Nonsense Spirituality, which I think is actually the name of her,

or like, TikTok channel as well. And she is an ex-Morman, highly educated, and kind of has done the deep dive herself on a lot of these things. And where she's ended up landing in this place where spirituality is incredibly important. There's a lot of people like her, and I think like me, who have a difficult time buying any bullshit, for lack of a better word, right? And so what she says is like there's all these really useful spiritual tools that religious communities and traditions have come up with that are essential to human flourishing. Community, ritual, service, purpose and meaning. Her theory is that, you know, people basically, we created these things for ourselves because we need them and we can still have them without having to have the belief in the grand narrative. that you may, if you're like me, have a difficult time buying into.

But that doesn't mean you just become an atheist who's like spirituality isn't important. So I think I'm in the middle of figuring out what does connection with those essential aspects of the human experience, which might involve connection with some kind of mind beyond my own, but I may not ever be able to define that and that's okay. I'm in that.

Yeah. In that search, in that journey. Yeah. He's ripe for reconversion. Yeah, he really is. He really is. Go for it. I mean, here's what I'll say.

I don't think that one needs to conceive of God in terms of the Trinity. And I don't think the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit actually holds water when you look at the Bible itself. And I think that was created hundreds of years after the death of Jesus as a understandable and convenient way to try and understand divinity. Because here are these Christians going, wait, wait. He calls God the Father and he says, I am the Son, says, I am the Father, I am the Father am one.

Does that mean He's God? And they're just pulling their hair out. You know, what is that? How does the Holy Spirit? How does, how does, did his body literally float up to heaven or did his spirit float up to heaven? No, his body had to have left the tomb because it was seen floating above and a bunch of people saw it, uh, etc.

So there's these debates going on, and they settle into these kind of definitions of God, you know, circa the year, you know, 250, 300, 350, right around then, of, you know, the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit. And the miracle of the resurrection then becomes kind of the most important thing about Jesus. From my perspective, and it's a little bit of a high perspective, the resurrection of Jesus is one of the least important things about Jesus. What's important about Jesus is what he said and how he, lived and the fact that he referred to the father and called himself the son of man throughout the

Bible. So if you jettison a lot of the dogmas that came up hundreds of years later around Jesus, yes, you're going to, there's right now, there's a flurry of comments going like, reign's wrong, and here's why, and here's the quote, and this is blasphemy, and he doesn't understand it at all, and he's misinterpreting and stuff like that. And I get that, that it would turn off most most Christians. But if you boil Jesus, his life and words and message down to its essence, I still believe that there can be divinity. There can be a metaphorical father and a metaphorical son, not literally a virgin birth seed and not literally a body floating back up to heaven. By the way, this whole thing with bodies is really interesting. And Alex O'Connor talks about it. Like,

like, well, because part of the, I don't, I think, book of revelations, I think, where, you know, the bodies will be uninterred from the graves and all float back up. It's like, well, does our spirit go up and is there a tunnel of light

and we see our ancestors or do our, and if so, how old are our bodies when they float up? Like, I'd like to be 32. Well, and that's why. I don't want to be 58 when I float up. Some Christian traditions, they don't, they don't like cremation because,

I mean, I'm not that God couldn't somehow reassemble those ashes. Yeah, like, make it easier for it. If Star Trek can, God can. So, yeah, right? But you know what I'm saying? Like, like, would it be possible for the two of you to jettison any and all dogma

and go back to the core essence and try and find some kind of like spiritual truth in the Bible and in the story of Jesus that isn't necessitated by the, these other kinds of definitions. Because you said the most important thing, the resurrection of Jesus, no. The most important thing about Jesus, love thy neighbor.

That's the most important thing about Jesus. I completely agree with you. Yeah, not floating zombie bodies. First of all, I think that there's a lot of Christians who are living like the way that you're describing, first of all, right? Okay, yeah. And there's a lot of Christians, interestingly, these are the Christians that I would have said

were not real Christians, right? So if you got mainline Protestant, you know, like your Presbyterians or Lutheran or, yeah. Yeah, and of course, we were like, well, yeah, they're not Christians. I remember there was a thing that happened at my little Baptist church that we were at when I was a kid in which we had an interim pastor come in, and he was talking about the two Isaiah's. Remember this?

So this is a perspective on the book of Isaiah that comes from critical scholarship, which essentially recognizes that there's two authors to the book of Isaiah. And this, of course, is blasphemy if you're a fundamentalist or a conservative Christian. Yeah, because one of them was on the backside of the prophecies. Right. Yeah, I don't know exactly how it works, but essentially it's basically trying to humanize the book in a way from a critical perspective. It's like, well, we know, we talk about the Gospels. And Matthew Mark and Luke and John didn't write the Gospels.

Right. Yeah, yeah. So, but that critical perspective was something that we looked at that and we're like, well, those people are not real Christians. And then when people would say, and I don't really know exactly what I think about the resurrection, but I don't know if it's a metaphor or something. And for me at the time, is this like on-fire college student, you know, who was just like sharing Jesus with everybody.

I was like, how can you think that this is a metaphor? Now, as a 47-year-old deconvert, the idea of the resurrection being a metaphor is much more beautiful than the idea that I have to believe in a physical resurrection that it really did happen. If it's a literary creation for our own edification, that's still a beautiful thing to me. I am trying to figure out what does it mean to engage with that. my wife and I have gotten so close to going back to what we would call a liberal church, you know, a progressive Christian church many times.

And then I just kind of find myself thinking like, ah, there's aspects of that that I just kind of don't want to deal with anymore, you know? So I'm definitely not, like having those. You will be asked to bring a hot dish. Right. You will be asked to be on like the parking committee

and help people park on Sunday mornings. What about the Quakers? What? I mean, I read about the Quakers as I was looking at options. Quakers, beautiful, beautiful tradition. They get together. They're Quakers in L.A. And they just call themselves friends, right? Yeah.

Friendship or... And then they have the, if you share, they have the quiet, they sit in quiet. They just get together if you want to speak and then you just speak your truth and people listen. That kind of thing is really attractive to me, ultimately is what I'm saying. Yeah.

Okay. And still hot dishes, right? Quakers, I don't know, just oats. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a big fan of oatmeal and fiber is really important. I like cereal, I guess.

You can bring cereal. They probably, I'm a hot dish fan, and I'm fine with helping with parking, but it's, you know, it's hard not to get in line in other ways, right? The service is fine. So what would this, would this be a possibility for you, a remote possibility for you to going to, I guess, what we'd call a more liberal church that had a more open idea. Yeah, I mean, I would say it's possible. I think that the filters that I have in place and like the lenses that it's still so difficult for me, you know, I do just think it's a,

it's a timing thing, you know. And that Sunday morning, you really value that now, so do I. Yeah, it's so much better. The football's on so early these days. Well, extended stretching. We had, uh, it's a spiritual practice. We had, uh, Father Gregory Boyle, uh, founder of Homeboy Industries on, uh, and he's a Jesuit. And his, his belief around God is absolutely revolutionary. And I, in, in some ways, I'm almost surprised that he hasn't been excommunicated by

the Pope because he is like, wherever there is kindness, that is where God is. And God loves us so much. that he doesn't have time to be judgmental because it would get in the way of him just being absolutely enamored with us and adoring us. And he does all that work in prisons, right? And he does it with prisons, with convicts, and job training and, you know,

defeating recidivism. And, you know, he will go in, you know, he'll have one of his homeboys, you know, that has killed his baby mama. Right. He just goes right in and just holds him and is like, God loves you. You're forgiven. And he just lives it and has affected, impacted positively hundreds of thousands of lives with his work.

Now, there's a clarity there when those are your actions and it's not, you're not on a stage. And you're not, I mean, he's, I assume he's found himself on stages. but you found ourselves embracing more convicts than most people in any walk of life, right? And that gives me pause in a good way. And it's hard to imagine. It's hard to imagine that there, you know, I think I've heard and agree with this,

that, you know, atheism, you know, can really effectively tear something down. It can't really, it's hard to build something, right? It's hard to imagine somebody from a strictly secular perspective saying that being able to enter into that situation that Greg Boyle is able to enter into that guy. At some point, there has to be some appeal to the universal love or something, whether you use the term God or not. Do you see what you going with that? One thing we've been doing with recent guests is sidebar. define what the word soul means to you.

It's a, it's a tricky word, right? I mean, to some people, it's literally the divine part of ourselves that goes to heaven to be with the father. To other people, it can be like feeling the funk, you know, in terms of music, it can be a certain warmth. When I, you know, we've called this soul boom. What does the word soul mean to you guys when I say that?

Hmm. I mean, I am a big music fan. That's my main hobby, getting into DJing. So first thing I think is James Brown and the whole, you know, the whole genre of soul. But I think it's this, it's someone pouring themselves out. And there's a, it's this feeling that then connects and motivates movement. So I think my answer has to be somewhere in there.

You win, by the way. You win. I think it has to be in there. Of all the feeling. All the previous song. Yeah. Someone pouring themselves out. And forcing them to movement.

I mean, because that defines both faith and music. Yeah. That's good. Well, should I even offer my definition? No, no one cares. Go ahead. That was really good, Link. I agree with Link.

I see soul as the deepest essence of a person. That thing that makes you uniquely you, that when you are able to connect with it and express it, it brings people to movement. No, I think that for me, it is, is what makes you, you. It's pretty damn good. Right there, too.

Excellent. Gold metal, silver metal. Okay. I'll take it. I'll take it. Yeah. I mean, one of the great things about religion is that as people go through

the very difficult things in life, somebody dies, somebody gets sick, somebody's getting married, which not necessarily difficult, it is difficult, but, you know, these monumental stages of life is that we have the words, we have the tools,

we have the ritual, we have the thing to say at times. And when you jettison that and you're like, well, okay, it's Thanksgiving. We're all gathered together as a family. What I do when I gather my family and my wife's family together, and they're all still very strong believing evangelical Christians, we still have a great relationship. But they know where I stand, and we really don't talk about it that much. but I'm not going to pray some universal love prayer with them.

I'm going to ask one of them to pray because the majority in that situation are Bible-believing Christians. But it does kind of, like there's something missing when you're like, well, I feel like I've got, I have a spiritual life, I have something to offer spiritually, but I can't pray in this environment because it wouldn't fit because it doesn't have the right language and the right object of the prayer.

That's just being sensitive to a situation. Yeah, yeah. And it might be really off-putting to sit there with some evangelicals and go, oh, radiant light of the universe, bring mercy and I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't do it, but I'm kind of just, like, religion provides those tools,

whether or not there's a understanding, understandable metaphysical reality associated with it. There's value in it. And I'm just trying to figure out what the, how do you, when you're a skeptic, how do you move into those spaces and experience? But I think the God question is at the center of it. Because it was for me on my journey. So I grew up, people know my story.

I grew up a member of the Baha'i faith, which is very beautiful, lovely faith with, you know, love thy neighbor, eliminate prejudice. do social good. You know, it's all great. I saw some hypocrisies in my faith. I certainly saw it in my parents and some behis that I knew.

I was angry and rebellious at the time. I also, I wanted to fuck my girlfriend and not feel guilty. You know, I wanted to try drugs and alcohol. That didn't go so well. And I tried on atheism, and I say in my book like a jaunty cap, I tried it on for a year or two

and really tried, because it made sense intellectually to me, well, there is this universe. And we don't need a God to explain the universe. We have science and the laws of physics, and they kind of explain how everything works. There isn't this kind of God of the gaps where, like, we need the miracles of God

to explain thunder and lightning and gravity and whatnot. Before I kind of came back around to the Baha'i faith, and it was a long 10, 12-year kind of process, I really had to decide, like, is there a God or not? And what does that mean? Let's put everything else aside. Is there something more to the universe than just matter and energy and the laws of physics?

Is there something more? And as I tried to live in a universe that was purposeless, that was meaningless, that just was stuff and the energies that moved and transformed that stuff around, it didn't make sense to me. And where it really broke down was in the idea of consciousness. And I was reading about consciousness and the miracle of consciousness that cannot even remotely be explained by science. They'll say it can like, oh, you had a memory of your dog dying when you were 12 and that's happening in this part of the amygdala or whatever.

But the fact that we're having this conversation, the fact that I'm remembering that my cat you know, named Tex actually was hit by a car and was, and I, and I just remembered that. And, you know, I'm having feelings and I'm going back to when I was in my 20s, kind of wrestling with a lot of these ideas. And, you know, you and I were all creatives and we do comedy and we make videos and we try and have meaningful conversations. And, and we appreciate beauty. And I saw the, the sunrise this morning. because I woke up early to pee, and it was a beautiful luminescent pink,

and I experienced... Your pee? That was good. He was exact same time. The pee was a resounding yellow. The sunrise was a luminescent pink. Thank you for that. Oh, I appreciate that.

That was pretty beautiful that you said it at the exact same time. There is a god. It was too easy. So anyways, this was kind of my journey was that the... kind of the miracle of consciousness more than anything else for me explains that we do not need to be having the consciousness that we have in order to function as a species on this planet. Evolution does not explain human consciousness.

We could be successful humans without opera and poet, actually opera, we could get rid of opera, but without poetry, without art, without kind of, without the kind of the depth and level and a profundity of the range of human emotion, we don't, without imagination, we, we could get by as a species without it. And there is, there is something kind of intangible, ineffable, and miraculous about consciousness. To me, that leads me to God. And also, For me, it just, the universe just didn't make sense. It's like, well, why is there stuff? There was just a thing, and then it exploded,

and then there were these things, and then there were solar systems, and then there was life, and then how did chemistry turn into biology? Like, where did, no one can explain that either. It's kind of Ocom's razor is like the easiest explanation is probably the most right one. It's like, well, then there's some kind of life force. There's some kind of source.

There's some kind of creative energy. there's some kind of something beyond the mere material that is kind of like exploding us, inspiring us into some kind of greater life and meaning to me that just as the puzzle pieces fit together, that made the most sense. And then I went on a journey into religion and faith after I settled that.

So when I throw that out to you all, to you kind of like former evangelical agnostics right now, Where does that land for you, Link? That is inspiring. It's a beautiful description. It gives great perspective. It's pretty philosophical. It's very intellectual.

I just made up that way. Okay, I like it. Yeah. But the experiential part of it, you know, it wasn't, I'm not hearing a road to Damascus experience for you. Well, I had that as well. You had that as well. 100% had that as well.

Yeah. Okay. I suffered in a lot of ways with depression and anxiety and addiction and I was lost and now I can see and that is part of my journey, my personal journey as well where I was in a lot of anguish and I was searching for a spiritual solution. So both of these things were happening at the same time for me. So there was also for me an emotional road back to, you know, I needed a higher power. in my life and I wanted there to be a higher power. And I found a higher power in my life. And one could listen to that, you know, an atheist could listen to that right now and said, well, that's just weakness and you fabricated that because you were in a lot of pain. So you made up this, this, you know, mythical energy out there

to help give you solace and mercy and grace. And that's all fine and well for you. But so for me, it was both of those things at the same time. And it comes a little bit out of, of you saying that prayer for Christy, Christy, Christy, where your heart is moved. I want to help this person. I don't know how.

I need something. And it's a turning of the little satellite dish of the heart towards that divine ray of light. The thing that I always come back to is an opening of my heart. I want to make sure that I'm not closed off. First of all, to this discussion to a spiritual reality, I want to be open and I want to, as cliche as it may sound, just to really be loving.

I mean, as like the central tenets, Like that's... Central way of being in the world. That always... That seems like the place that I want to go back to. I do acknowledge that for me, I, you know, I haven't experienced a level of suffering. I'll talk about Christy again.

I see that she has more of a spiritual connection than I do because of the suffering that she's endured that I haven't. is deeply personal for her and, you know, but also physical, like I said. And then, so I think it gave her a dimension, a spiritual dimension to her experience that she was, there was a need that drove her and there was an openness. And I think that it, in the least, it works, it works for her. you know and it's for me it's not about well are you right are you wrong are we going to are we

going to judge this for me it's like can i can i get some of that you know when and i do feel like it's a matter of timing you know i'm very grateful and i i try to take care to um just to cultivate gratitude for how well things are going for me in my life right now i'm you know but I think that it's, there is something to suffering, you know. That's why so many people talk about it, you know. And it, and it's a big part of your story that it kind of makes me feel like I'm waiting for, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop, and I just want to be open. And so when that happens, I'm not an angry asshole.

And I'm not currently. So I feel like... You're not angry. And I'm on a process. Suffering will happen. I know it will happen. Suffering is right around the corner for all three of us. Yeah.

Could be next month. Could be three years from now. Could be 15 years from now. But it's absolutely there. And a spiritual path does give one some tools for dealing with suffering. I think that the way that my former spiritual practice was one of many, manufactured suffering because of the way that I interacted with it. And so there's work for me to do in getting to that, get into this point that you're

describing. Like the waking up in the morning and seeing that sunset and feeling this understanding of my place in the world and the smallness of it and just having a gratitude well up inside of me. I'm starting to learn that these are spiritual practices. I mean, I'm starting to learn that the work that we do is spiritual practice. That's another conversation. We can come back to it. No, that's one thing I really want to get to here. I think the creativity that you guys bring, the exercise of imagination, the healing. I was, congratulations on your new show, Wonderhole, and it's so great. And it's been. It's been a spiritual exercise. Wouldn't you say?

The two of us to create. But let me just, let me finish that. I want to get to that because the episode where you made giant jelly, gelatin versions of yourselves and then reenacted the car crash, I was welled up with tears at the end of it. It was so strangely moving. And we started the conversation talking about the fire at my house about like, hey, what sucks and also is grateful?

Well, that car accident. Like, like people could have died and lost links. and there could have been lawsuits. You were just a pubic hair away from fucking disaster. And it would have been 100% on you. And such gratitude. But at the same time, like, your car was totaled. You had to, like, deal with parents and the shit fell down.

And it sucked. So that's one of those examples of, like, gratitude and yet. And you want to, you want to be able to direct that gratitude towards something. naturally, right? Do you want to talk about Wonderhole? Yeah, go back now. We think very similarly, and I think that a lot of the arguments,

the way you kind of philosophically laid out the case for God is something that is, it resonates with me, it's compelling with me, to me, it's very much the way that I have talked about God in the past, especially when I was a Christian and I was making that argument with an atheist, right? where I'm at now is, I mean,

if I have to like pick a side, I'm agreeing with you on those things being personally compelling, but I also- Agnostic Leans Theist. Right, but what ends up happening is now I've had enough conversations with enough people, like if Alex O'Connor was here, you've got to talk to him recently,

then he would have a really great answer to a lot of those things. It may not be super satisfying to you or to me, but like it's satisfying to him, and it would probably be pretty convincing, and I would be like, he's smarter than me, he's more educated, he's thought about this even more than I have. And so my question remains, which is,

do I have to have a faith or a certainty about that, whatever, it can be super nebulous and it could be like, it's love, it's God, its intention, its purpose, if it is the case, that all of those things that you said are true, but they are essentially, they are some result of an undirected process. And they are this incredible thing that has resulted because of the process

of natural selection and consciousness can be explained or will be explained perfectly naturally. Does that undo all of the things that are meaningful that you've talked about? Because in my mind, it doesn't. It doesn't undo them. Because even if the value in the prayer, and the value in the ritual,

and the value in the community, and the value in the service, is in the act itself. And it does kind of tie back to some sort of natural reason, but there's nothing behind it. Does it really matter? I think is the question that I have. Because to me, it may, like, you may say,

well, there's not a philosophical grounding to that, and I'm not going to argue with that necessarily because it's not my area. But, you know, the prayer, for Christi was, it had this, whether there was a metaphysical connection. And first of all, there could be some physical connection. You know, there could be, like we're discovering things about how our thoughts can connect with any part of the universe instantaneously because of some, some property of quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics, you know, you observe something

and it shifts and changes somewhere else, yeah. And so maybe what we perceive as supernatural and metaphysical is really just an addendum to the physical understanding of the world. This conversation has been going on for 150 years, especially since the advent of evolution and Darwin, and the materialists and atheists of which there were a lot back in the 19th century, said, aha, look, we don't need God to explain why giraffes have long necks and the miracle of the, you know, the variety of species on the planet. Like, we can explain it all through evolution.

And it's like, okay, great, there was a scientific discovery that, you know, again, from my faith tradition, sorry to keep dipping back there, but it brings a lot of, like, focus to my thinking. Faith and science are two wings of the same bird. There are two ways of understanding the same reality. And of course, there's evolution because God works in this material plane through science. And there isn't a discrepancy. You know, it's like a friend of mine who was an atheist said, aha, they found a part of the brain that activates when you're having a transcendent experience.

Aha. And it's like, yeah. That doesn't get rid of the idea of God. It doesn't mean it's not transcendent. Yeah, that's how it works because we live in a material realm. And even if they come up with an algorithm and AI discovers exactly how consciousness works, aha, we've figured it out. Here's the computer program and we'll show you the formula of, okay, that's fine.

because that doesn't explain away the divine. It never can. Yeah, and I don't disagree with that. I think the question is, I am less interested at this point in my life of coming to a strong conclusion about the nature of that and more leaning into those spiritual practices and leaning into the connection,

even if ultimately what I'm doing is connecting with something in my mind, I don't think I would be able to decipher the difference between the two, and I think that I would experience the same benefit, if that makes sense. Look, I want to talk about your creative work and shift gears here a little bit. But before I do, I just want to say that Jesus said that God is love. Father Richard Rohr said that God is love. You talk about leading with love and wanting to just live in love, whether you have a God force in your life or not.

Can we all just agree that if we turn toward love, and I think love is a much greater analogy for God than a bearded man with a white beard on a cloud who's judgmental and scowling. Whether you're an atheist or a theist or born again or whatever, if we can just, that's one point of commonality that we can all lean into, that God is love, and we can just be turning toward love in our lives on a daily basis. You know, when we're witnessing the sunrise, then that's generally the right direction. I don't think that we can get astray on that path. I think it's beautiful.

It's good. It has to be true, what you're saying. And I think if we just go, if we keep that at the core, I think we're in a good spot. And then I think if you build a practice around, like, leaning more into that. Like, if I, how can I be, how can I be more loving? How can I, yeah, how can I get more gratitude to come out, you know, how can I get, you know, how can I be motivated selfishly for service?

Sure. Yes. All of those things. And I think that, you know, to talk about our work as a spiritual practice is, has been very rewarding. for us, you know, we're... I want to say what you guys have built is astonishing and I'm really not trying to kiss your butt plug.

Oh, don't, we're astonished as well. Yeah. We are astonished. Astonishing and beautiful and important. These two engineering students from North Carolina State University right, you know, started making some internet videos and came to L.A.

And now you have this empire and the way your fan base is so big-hearted. They're so warm, they're so kind, they're so curious and positive, and you're leading the charge of this kind of service humor and creativity and service humor and creativity come from that same divine spark. Can you talk about that intersection

of kind of spiritual service and creativity in the work that you do? We did not know that's what we were creating. Like, you know, it's, yes, we created a brand mythical that was built around our friendship, you know, and, and, uh, we've managed to stick around since basically the beginning of YouTube and, and we're still making it work and people, people care. Um, and I think that the, the, the conversation we're having now is something that we came, we've, we, we, we, we started coming to grips with, over the past five, seven years,

understanding that what we, just by putting ourselves out there and our friendship out there and being as, you know, trying as hard as we could, but also being as genuine as we could because we know each other too well to not be who we are. Yeah.

You know, I don't think we could. The authenticity of your friendship, personality, and humor shines. in your work in a way you've never tried to be something else. And it wasn't, we really respect the brands that are, and the entertainers who are like values-based. And yes, we had a lot of value, we were true to our values,

but we weren't strategic about that in a way that, let's say you have been with SoulPancake, or that Hank and John Green have been with the Vlog Brothers brand since the beginning. And I think a lot of inspiration for, Part of that, one of the reasons that was difficult for us to do, honestly, is our background, because I think that, you know, our background was very much about separating things into the sacred and the secular. And I think that we saw that if we were going to have, you know, if we were going to create,

we were going to create things to generate interest and audience so that we could point them to the sacred. That's when we were very early on in this game, that's what we were thinking. Yeah. And then coming out of that perspective and then sort of stumbling on to the fact that, oh, the things that we're doing, the way that our friendship is on display every single day on Good Mythical Morning are the things that we're trying to do that are a bit more aspirationally, aspirational from a creative standpoint like Wonderhole. this is in many ways our spiritual service. You know?

And it was, that's a really, that wasn't an easy thing for us to see, admit, or embrace. And I think that in the past couple years, we're glad that you like us, but we want you to like what we've made. And we thought about the, it was the dichotomy early on. And now it's not.

Now it's, you know, Good Mythical Morning was a side project. We started when I have seated, and reorder our television show, commercial kings. And so we said, well, we can talk to each other and we can connect with our fan base in between making these videos, like, once a month that are higher budget, musical comedy.

That was our focus, but we knew that the strategy was to connect with an audience. So we did a daily show, Good Mythical Morning, just based on the fact that, like, we didn't want to edit, we didn't like fast edits, and we could carry a conversation for 10, 13 minutes. What we didn't realize was that we were creating this comfortable environment for people to count on every single day for now 12 years

where they are the third person in our friendship. And it's extremely comforting. And we learned that when we... The feedback you must be getting about people... Especially touring and seeing people in person really... solidify it. And there's people watch it every single more. There's people who haven't missed one.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. You guys, I really truly am in awe of what you have built. It's really beautiful. I'm also honored that you would come on the show and share this incredibly difficult topic

of this spiritual deconstruction, reconstruction. And because I know that you guys catch a lot of flack for that. And it's really brave. for you to just share your hearts honestly and your spiritual search and your spiritual quest honestly. And we at Soul Boom are just honored

that you came on the show and a huge fan. I hope we can work together on something and combine our forces. Yeah. It's really been fun. Yeah, thanks for having us. And I've been excited to talk to you about this. Okay, good.

We'll keep the conversation going. To be continued. Wonderful. Thanks so much. In Jesus name. Oh, that was good. That was good. Amen.

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