Soul Boom - Rick Glassman: Is God Not Cool in Comedy?

Episode Date: April 9, 2024

Rainn sits down with comedian Rick Glassman (Take Your Shoes Off podcast, ABC's Not Dead Yet) to talk about God and spirituality’s place in comedy. Rick also shares how the revelation of his adult diagnosis of autism shed light on his unique approach to communication, both on and offstage. They also talk about mental health, human connection, the art of comedy, and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

But you know, but the audience was like, oh, and they were really disturbed and people were like, those jokes were really upsetting. Like, did you try and kill yourself? Like it was, could we, could we talk about this for a little bit? Yeah. Okay. We can talk about anything. I'm not trying to move. Pat, I have a weird thing. I need a right hand. I mean if I do this. I need the right. And we're going to get to that. Hey there. It's me, Rain Wilson. And I want to dig into the human experience. I want to have conversations about a spiritual revolution. Let's get deep with our favorite thinkers, friends, and entertainers about life, meaning, and idiocy. Welcome to the Soul Boom podcast.

When you decided to put a picture of yourself on the back, did you say, I'm going to go for author? Or did you already have this picture and it worked out? Because this is a I have a book picture. I'm cupping cradling my tiny face and enormous forehead. But one thing is if you knew you were doing it for a book, a lot of times if you have glasses, there would be something. Yeah, that is always good. Yeah.

I don't know. It's just a fun little thing we could clip and talk about. The main reason that you're here is that Kartik saw you perform a set. And he was really moved by and touched by a joke that you made, my producer.

And that was, you were riffing and you just kind of offhand said, by the way, if I said to you right now that I believed in God, I would lose half the audience and it's way kind of cooler and edgier to be, I'm paraphrasing off of what he said,

to say that you're an atheist, but if I told you what I really believed and like sincerely believed and you're going toward like the spiritual side of life, that you would risk losing a big chunk of the audience. That's a terrible, terrible paraphrase. But for me, it hits home personally because here I was an insecure, class, class,

I just wanted to be adored. I moved to Hollywood. All of a sudden I was getting film and TV work. All of a sudden I was doing little comedy theater stuff here and there. I wasn't really doing stand-up. And getting in with the comedy community of the stuff that I was working on. And then shift a few years into the office. All of a sudden, I was working with Oprah Winfrey.

And I started Soul Pancake. And I was having spiritual conversations. And my personal faith, my Baha'i faith, became very, very important. important to me. Prayer and meditation became important to me. Researching spiritual ways of being in the world became crucial to me. And I started sharing about this. And the people in the comedy community recoiled in some very real ways. People did not know what the fuck to make about the guy playing Dwight Shrewt, that big, funny, weird-looking guy. All of a sudden, he's talking about God and the soul and the meaning of life and interviewing Oprah Winfrey, like what? There is nothing less sexy in the comedy

world than having one foot in the spirituality world and speaking sincerely about what you believe. And so just going off of that, that shred of that joke that I did not hear, it was just, it was the only time I ever said it. I vaguely remember it was something that was on my mind on the way to that show. I want to also just like, because you said something that I feel like there's one little switch missing. Of you saying, like, people in the comedy community do not like to hear this or the spirituality. It's either too serious or something. And what I have found is there's a difference between preaching what you believe and preaching your point of view.

And when you express religion, God, faith, atheism, whatever it might be, people are, might be feeling that you're telling me that I'm wrong or what I need to think. as opposed to saying, here's how I see this. And this is how I feel about it. And I don't remember what I said. I do remember the feeling. This is a bit hyperbolic, I guess. But people either believe in God and like, God is real.

God is great. I live for God. They're here. And then there's a huge gap where not many people live. And then over here it's, you fucking idiot. You believe in a ghost. upstairs who created the world in seven days, it very much feels like politics too, where it's like, where's the centrist mentality? Like, where's the maybe? Where's the I don't know? Where's the probably

nots? There's such certainty that this is or is not. Well, I won't push back on that a little bit because the fastest growing religion in the United States is spiritual but not religious. Right. And many of the spiritual but not religious. have a very different kind of conception of God where it's much more like the spirit of nature or of just kind of general love in the world. Right. And many of them are agnostic.

Many of them are like, you know, I don't really know. There's, you know, there's quite a, the survey that I read, um, hardcore atheists are like less than 15%. Um, and there's almost equal amount of agnostics of people that, that don't. know. So I feel like the spiritual but not religious and the agnostic do make up that center,

and that that's a pretty big portion of the population. That very much makes sense to me. There is a traditional view of God, and there's many, many different gods. Sure. But there's a Abrahamic view of, I call it in the book Sky Daddy. Well, not just Abrahamic view. There's also, I don't know enough about it, but there's also like the, the, the Quran site, Quran, But Islam is an Abrahamic religion. Is it? I thought Abrahamic religion came in. Abraham and Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

In Islam, it all called the people. Yeah, and it all comes to the people of the book. Islam sees itself very much as a fulfillment of that lineage. Then the Abrahamic God is patriarchal. Is where it becomes something to follow. I mean, in a quite literal sense, just, you know, governmental policies that are based off of religion. But like there are there are people that there are people that that are

living their life for religion and then there's people that don't. And to me, I don't know. I guess I don't understand it well enough, but spiritual, I feel like I'm a spiritual person. I feel like life has, life has meaning within its life that isn't necessarily otherworldly. Like I think Avatar does the best version of that. Like everything is connected in a way and I think that's beautiful and spiritual.

but like religion, talking about religion is taboo now. Do you disagree? Well, again, I want to separate religion from spirituality because, yes, there is a lot of taboo about talking about religion. Right. And that bleeds over into spirituality. And I think especially in the comedy world where if you talk about spirituality, people in the comedy world like, uh-oh, they really want to talk about religion

and I bet they're going to try and convert me and like you say, or preach to me or something like that. But I say in soul boom, hold it up, faster, cover. I say in soul boom, I feel like we've thrown the spiritual baby out

with the religious bathwater. So we threw the religious bathwater out, but we've also lost a lot of the beautiful, rich wisdom traditions and meaning from the, world's great faith traditions that we could benefit from individually and societally. Would you say that spirituality then is perhaps the philosophy of religion and the intention behind it and not necessarily the miracle of it?

I think that's very well said. Yeah. I think that's fair. I have a hard time connecting Judaism with spirituality. Not that they're not connected. They don't overlap somewhere. You only feel of it as a cultural experience for you? Like, I used to do a bit where I talk about I'm a Jewish Democrat because that's how I was born.

Like, I don't know anything. Just like, these are the boxes that I was told to fit in. And the tradition and the culture remain important to me. But like the religious aspect of it, Judaism to me is much more traditional than it is religious. And I do find tradition and spirituality to go hand in hand because there is a, a familiarity in the tradition. I'll meet Jewish people and not know they're Jewish and just feel like I know them. Some people might say we've met in a previous life.

Some people might just say, oh, that's a East Coast or Midwest Jew. Like, we're all this certain type of thing, whatever it is. But there's a safety and a comfort in tradition. And tradition could mean a sater dinner, or it could mean, sitting around the house and everybody complaining about whatever they're complaining about and nobody taking negativity from it. Growing up, to me, my favorite holiday was Christmas because we had family in California and in Cleveland, where I'm from.

The people from California had off work during the Christmas holiday. So they would travel into Cleveland for Christmas. So we all got together for Christmas. So on Hanukkah, we would get a gift and it was nice and it was fun and we lit the candles. But when I think back about my favorite time of being with family during the holiday season, without a doubt, it was going to my grandma's place with Christmas tree and the Santa Claus candles and bagels. And it just felt like I love Christmas. And because of that, we even had stockings. Like we would write to Santa.

We would leave cookies in root beer. And like... So did your family ever have any Jewish? prayers or high holidays. We went to the, we went to the, we went to the temple for the high holidays, which always felt like a thing we had to do, at least for me, I remember it that way. And it was nice because it was doing something, but I was bar mitzvah. I went to Hebrew school until I was 13. I became a bar mitzvah, and then I had the option of getting, going through a confirmation, which is basically, do you want to do two more years of this?

Or do you want to be done? I was like, I don't want to do it anymore. You know, I've been feeling differently the past couple months about Judaism, which, which is not to answer your question and is not necessarily something to get into right now. No, I want to get into it right now. Please go there. Anti-Semitism has been around since before I was around, and I'm fortunate to admit that my experience with it, though it wasn't rare, it was very, very rarely, I felt threatened.

I always felt it was ignorant. Or I felt people don't know what they're saying. Jew them down was just this person probably doesn't even realize the origins of what that means. I didn't really feel that threatened by it. I do now, both from anecdotal observations as well as messages and experiences that I'm having firsthand. Wow. And it's not just uncomfortable and mean. I don't feel bullied.

I feel threatened. And the lack of acknowledgement of it from, I'll just call it social media, but anything you might watch, The connection of my, and I don't use this term as a joke, and I don't know if I've ever said this word, brethren, my Jewish brethren, and the support that we have been sending each other, and whether it's posts that are public or messages of support or calls, has made me really appreciate what feels like a tribe and feels like a safe space. But like, there was always a very, like, surface. level, Jewish? Jewish. Oh, yeah. Cool, man. You find the Afi Komen and just like little Jewish jokes that have so much more depth now and inclusion now. And when you grew up Jewish, you grew up a certain

way. Not everybody. But that's where that idea like, oh, have we met in a previous life? I'll meet a Jewish person. They may not have gone to Jewish summer camp, but they probably did. They probably can't have dairy. They're probably very close with one of their parents, if not both of them. their parents. They probably are funny. There's there's something that Judaism offers that is not the religion, but but the tradition and Jewish people happen to be very close with their grandparents. And a lot of my Jewish friends are, if their grandparents are still around, I know their grandparents because when I've gone to their house, their family is there. I know their family. I will go into somebody's home and if I have to take a shit,

pardon me, a poop, I will write, I will feel comfortable. I feel comfortable pooping around a Jewish person. One of my best- You would never poop in a goy house? I would poop in a goy house, but I would say, may I please use your bathroom as opposed to I have to go poop? What's the, like, is there a bathroom that's furthest away from everybody?

Right. Like being a friend of mine who grew up in Texas who didn't know a Jewish person until he moved to Los Angeles in his late 20s. I remember he said, I said, I've been best friends with him for over 10 years. Two years ago, he said, I was on the phone with my mom on speaker for something. We were driving somewhere.

And my mom said something about her bowel movements. And David, after we hung up, he goes, you guys are so comfortable talking about poops. And I go, do you not have Jewish friends? Like, this is what we talk about. And to say Judaism, it's cultural that we talk about poops is a joke version of it. But there is a shorthand of being very direct, very comfortable talking about what is bothering them, what is aching them. And with that comes that kind of that thing

of like understanding your needs and wants. I need to feel safe. There's an intimacy in having kind of bold, unabashed, unadorned conversation. Absolutely. That you, when you have the stereotype like wasp house,

which I didn't grow up in, but the stereotype, which very rarely exists, but it does exist. Are you talking about a colder? Yeah, cold, emotional, where things are not said and left unspoken.

More so emotionless, that sounds like, not emotional. Did I say emotional? Yeah, you're saying like not showing emotional thing. Yeah, you don't show emotions. Emotions are suppressed. There are things that can and cannot be spoken about.

That does not breed an intimacy where you can talk about your shits with your mom. Yeah. And whether it's shits or whether it's giggles or whether it's giggles or whether it's threats that you're getting. And like there is such a bond. I feel the way with comedians too. There's a bond with comedians. There's a bond with Jewish people. There's just, it's community.

Spirituality is, feels to me in the same category as wellness. Like, spirituality feels like eating well, appreciating life, kindness, being in touch with your needs and your wants, where religion feels like having answers to things, outside of science. Religion is, I guess the only through line is the meaning of life and why are we here. Is it to prove to, is it, you talk in your book about the babies, the twin babies,

and one is like, I can't wait to get out of here and experience this wonderful life. And the other is like, there's nothing but carnage and blood and horrible things out there, staying here as long as you possibly can. In the womb, yeah. In the womb, yeah. And one is wanting to live life,

and the other is, scared of what's on the other side. And the metaphor that I believe you were saying was, we don't know what's on the other side. It might be great. While the baby thought it would be a bad thing, there is this kind of, the religious side is believing that afterlife,

there is something better for you. And whether or not that is the case doesn't feel like the same category as spirituality, which is just about being in here in the womb right now. And when you start talking about what happens afterlife, that to me feels more religious than spiritual. Do you disagree? I kind of disagree.

I feel like considering the journey of the soul is very much attached to spirituality. And you do not need to be of any faith to deeply ponder the fact that we are spiritual beings having a human experience. And we're going to lose these meat suits in 10, 20, 50 years. however long it is, we're all in the process of dying.

And in every spiritual tradition, there is a continuity. There is a life continuity. You said better, I don't know, like better than this world, different than this world, perhaps more advanced than this world. This world is a hell a lot more advanced than what it was like for a baby in the womb, in the Baha'i faith. That's the metaphor that carries through that when we move to the next plane of existence, by the way, there's no heaven or hell.

We just continue our spiritual journey. You're saying sounds so, the difference between spirituality and religion sounds like that. Like you are speaking, and I know you don't know, but you are speaking with a certainty that there's no heaven or hell. But there is this other thing that you can't define. So it's almost like you're saying

spirituality is religion without definition, which is just its own religion then. Religion is just establishing. I'm trying to find, in soul boom, I'm trying to find a universe. that connects us all. We're Jewish, Baha'i, born again Christian, Muslim, Hindu. We're all on a spiritual journey. What can we agree on? Let's focus on those and try and draw the tools that we need to make our lives richer, healthier, more vibrant, more meaningful. And yeah, I kind of skirt,

I mean, I'm a Baha'i, but I try in the soulbroom world to kind of skirt any kind of like religious doctrine necessarily. But that's why I ask, about your Jewish upbringing, like I'm interested in knowing like what fed your soul being a Jewish kid in Cleveland. I grew up with such love in my aunts, my uncles, my cousins, my grandparents, my parents, my brother, the pets, my mom just doing, you know, to our animals. I grew up with such love that I feel so connected to my family. And, and I, and I, and, and, and, And I don't think this is a breakthrough observation. But when you love somebody, I have some friends that I feel like,

I mean, I love some of my friends I love. It feels like family and I feel very, very connected to them. It's just such love and connection. Yeah, I don't know. I'm feeling myself wanting to define something that I don't even understand. But I am feeling introspective at the moment of like, I feel like sometimes love is a choice and sometimes it's not. And when it feels like it's not a choice, it's because this person makes me, that same thing I said with like, oh, I feel like we've met in the previous life.

Like if this person, if I feel a certain way with a person, it makes me feel like I love them. And I don't know how much of that is ego. Like, oh, I only love them because they make me feel good. So that feels a little cheap. But something that everybody in my family has in common is they make me feel good. Is that why I love them? I don't know. So I would say can we and the challenge is can you and me in our lives expand that definition of family?

Can it be a slightly larger circle? And can we humans who oftentimes, not always, but oftentimes greatly love our biological families and our extended families. Can we extend that to our friends, to the people that we work with, to our workplaces? Can we extend that to immigrants that might look different? in us? Can we extend that to people that might be suffering halfway across the globe, to our Haitian brothers and sisters, to our Ghazan brothers and sisters, to our Israeli brothers and sisters in a universal way? And that's the step that I hope we can be endeavoring to take, to be pushing ourselves, to be pushing our boundaries and our envelope about what is acceptable

and what is, how can we deepen that compassion, you know, day by day, week by week, month by month, country by country. Have you been able to do that? I struggle with it. I'm trying. It is part of the goal that I set to myself is month by month, I want to become more and more compassionate

to people that are different than myself and expand my definition of what is family. Does that mean, something that's actionable. For example, I'm going to help these people find a home. Sure. Or does that mean, because that is something that you could control, but you're only doing that, might you be doing that because of the challenge you set for yourself? And at what point does that challenge then bring in that feeling of, I'm not doing it because I want to. I'm doing it because it's real. Like, the way I want to support my friends and family is very real. When I see somebody on the street

that needs help, maybe I'll say, can I go buy you something to eat? And that is real in that moment, but I'm not walking away feeling for them past that moment. I could make the choice, but go every day buy that person lunch or go every, try and find this person a job and let them stay with you until whatever. Like, there's a difference between the actionability and the feeling. And I'm curious, has your conscious choice to start being more actionable and intentional, has that then created within you an actual different feeling of love for strangers? faith without works is dead is from the Bible from James in the Bible and I feel like in the Buddhist tradition

you start with right mind and it moves into right action right so you set your intention your intention then harnesses your feeling or maybe you do it the other way maybe you harness your feeling and set your intention and then that reveals itself in greater action if it doesn't reveal itself in action. It's just a warm, fuzzy feeling in your chest like, oh, I love the children of the Ukraine, you know, but so it's part of that process. It's feeling mind and action. Am I, am I great at it? No, I want to get better and better at it. I'm better now than I was five years ago. And I'm better five years ago than I was 15 years ago. So I'm trending in the right direction and having these kind of conversations, I think, is an asset toward that movement.

That's why I want to build a spiritual revolution. That's why we need a spiritual revolution is the subtitle of the book. Hold it up. Hold it up. Hold it up. And I'll put it down. Go ahead. I want to ask one more question about it because I know we've gone back and forth of timing stuff. But people that are part of your life, but not close.

What types of things can you do to love them more? like what actual tangible not just the i think you can i think you can listen to them and hear their story and empathize with what they're going through right because i think that it all comes down to compassion i think it's something it is a muscle that can be exercised compassion can be exercised just like a muscle in the gymnasium and that you can do on a daily basis and then hopefully hopefully it leads to little actions here and there. It doesn't mean that you give up your family and move to Ukraine or move to Gaza

or move to Israel and start, you know, working with people, but you make tiny little changes that move the ball forward. I got from my, something I got for my mom that I like is my mom talks to everybody. My mom will start conversations with people in line.

She'll be asking so many questions. People love my mom. I love that. And I got that, from her, my mom gets stuff. Like, even before COVID, when it's easier to change your flight, if you ever needed to get a ticket changed, my mom would get a change with no fee. She's calling, she's making best friends of them.

And I remember looking, oh, I want to have that type of thing. But it got into a thing where you start schmoozing with people. And I have, there was one girl I dated and I understand that it wasn't for her. But she got frustrated that, like, everywhere we go takes so long because you're talking to everybody. But, like, and I'm asking them questions. And I'm missing social cues. Maybe I'm asking something that's too personal, but I still feel like it was okay.

Everything is okay. I remember I was at DuPars before it closed in the valley, and there was a person in there that was, one might say, was a little odd, and I was so curious about this person. And my friends were in there and they wanted to leave. And I'm having a 20-minute conversation. I'm just like, why are you, what is that voice that you're doing? What is that? And like having this conversation with this person that they felt, they seemed a lot less

odd once you got to know them. I can't say that the reason I was doing that was because of love or morality, but I was very interested in talking to people. So I like that you said that because it's like, I do think of my mom is one of the most loving people ever. And she does listen to everybody. A genuine interest and curiosity about other people is the perfect way to start. One of the main reasons I was so drawn to having you here besides the fact that you're delightful and funny and brilliant and a great basketball player and rapper too, is that recently you came to kind of diagnose yourself with the help of experts that you were autistic and on the spectrum. And I find this absolutely

fascinating. I saw the I Am Phenomenal film, which was great. But how were you led? It had to do with Bill Lawrence. Is that right? The TV writer? Yeah. So that's the I'm phenomenal video that I put on YouTube is kind of a story that was the inciting incident to me getting the proper diagnosis, which I had hypothesized for maybe a year or two before then, but like also, I don't know, probably not. Does it matter? Why does it matter? I'm also feeling, I don't know if vulnerable is the right word, but I'm feeling insecure at the moment because it's something that I don't shy away from, like I'm not secretive about this, but I have, I don't love talking about it and I'll, and I will. There's just a lot of judgment. This isn't a victim. And I just want to say too, and I'll just address that because just straight up, like, I get how and why that would make you feel vulnerable. And you've probably read a lot of YouTube comments and people like giving a lot of shit and being skeptical and even mean. This has been a thing for me because for my whole lot of,

I struggled with mental health issues. I never really talked about it. It's been very vulnerable for me as well on this journey to come out and talk about anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation, loneliness, you know, addiction, and what a role that played through my 20s and 30s, but still to this day. So I get it.

It's very meaningful to people as well because they're like, oh, thank God you spoke about that. I'm also neurodivergent. You're so successful. You've got a stand-up career and an acting career. And I think these conversations are really important. I did a TV show a few years ago called As We See It, and it was about three, 20-somethings on the autism spectrum living together to find independence and relationships and work and et cetera. After that show and befriending so many people, so many neurodivergent people, I became comfortable talking, more comfortable, like being open.

and talking about it. But there still is this thing inside that was, when I first was diagnosed and I started talking about it, I had some people in my life that were like, yeah, I figured. And then some people were like, that's not what autism is.

And I have said this before, but there's such a dirty feeling that I found myself, and that's on me. I found myself, instead of just expressing myself, or trying to better understand the way I communicate and how others, could communicate more efficiently with me, I found myself in positions where I was like almost selling. No, no, no, no, you don't understand. You don't know some of the things that I don't show.

You don't know some of the things when I'm alone. You don't understand all the special schools and special classes and isolation things when I was a kid. And it was like, what am I selling you on how long it took me to put on some fucking socks? And it just felt so dirty to where I stopped talking about it. But I didn't stop reading about it. I didn't stop try to better understand. And and what I've learned about myself and my lack of awareness. Not that my awareness has so much broadened, but I have a better understanding of like, oh, I can't possibly know this.

It's changed my life. And I have, as you said, it may be beneficial to some people. I have decided that, like, yeah, I don't want to steer away from it. I love talking about all of these observations and tools, which I'd love to get into, but I'm dancing around at the moment because I wanted to be able to do it without qualifying it as autism

because it's not all autism and I hate the idea of speaking for autism as opposed to speaking to my experiences which relate to autism when it does. There are some classic... But you yourself said you were relieved when you kind of got that diagnosis because it's like, oh, that explains a lot of your OCD

and like you... The not picking up on the social cues, the taking things literally, the not being, having a difficult time adapting situations, my sensitivities to sounds and smells and textures, my obstacles and empathizing with points of view that I don't have intuitively. Me not understanding that just because I'm not uncomfortable

doesn't mean that they're not. Me not understanding that even though I'll say, hey, I'm feeling vulnerable and uncomfortable and setting my own boundaries, other people either don't want to or don't know how to do that, me learning how to give people a safe space, not because it's my responsibility, but because if I don't,

then they're not going to connect with me. And I have a bit where I talk about, I was diagnosed with autism in my 30s, and I have a bit where I talked about, like, I didn't realize I didn't have friends growing up until recently. I always thought everybody was busy. I just believed that I can't hang out, Rick.

I used to have, I used to have, sometimes I would ask my kids would make excuses and I would say, can my mom talk to your mom? I mean, that's, that's, I don't, like, I don't, I'm not embarrassed or ashamed about it because I was a kid and that's, my mom was my champion. But just the idea of just missing that, like, that's that thing, that, that one little thing that the audience is missing. Oh, he's joking. This obvious comedian doing a performance is joking, obviously, but because they're missing that, now the whole thing flops.

And now do I stop doing that or do I need to let them in on it and how? and the autism diagnosis changed my comedy. I used to, I used to, getting back to the Bill Lawrence of it, who gave me my first job and is a big time show creator now. And he saw me do stand-up and he said... He did scrubs, he did Ted Lassow,

he's done a lot of big hit shows. He said, after he saw me do stand-up of the day we met, he goes, I love how comfortable you are in uncomfortable moments. And I knew he said that as a compliment, but I also thought, what was uncomfortable? I was just doing a,

you know, it was just doing a Will Smith impression or whatever the fuck. Like, what's uncomfortable about this? So I wasn't insulted. I believed him, but what is uncomfortable? And for the longest time, I had this reputation and comedy of like, you'd replay the tape and go,

I don't see what's uncomfortable. It's like a fucking massage, guys. And like, I had this, I have and definitely had this reputation of, I like to make people uncomfortable and make stuff awkward. It's a operational cost people getting awkward, but that's not what I'm trying to do. It's not what I want people to be like, yes, that's great what you just did. The problem wasn't what I thought was funny, and the problem wasn't that people thought I wasn't

funny. The problem was that one little disconnect and that one little disconnect is always a different thing. It's a disconnect, but it's always for a different reason. You remind me of somebody I don't like you said something very direct and it felt like you were being mean so I'm needing to protect myself there's a very specific moment it was right when I got diagnosed and I was trying to look for this stuff and I was having a conversation with a friend of mine and she's telling me the story about something that I'm not understanding and I say I'm sorry I don't get it what's the point and then she finished talking 10 seconds later and I didn't not I didn't think the only thing I noticed in that moment was she has this energy talking, I said something,

and then her energy changed and it ended. So I asked, did I say something that changed the energy? I was and still am very interested. She goes, oh, I was probably talking too much. You told me to what's the point, like, so I just wanted to get to it, which makes total sense. My intention was I'm not able to follow right now. I need like a thesis statement. Like I just help get me, help guide me to the point you're making so I could enjoy this with you. One thing was missing. That miscommunication happens and will always happen and that's okay. But the idea to recognize that it did happen, first of all, and then try and get better

at making it not. For example, saying something like, I want you know, I am interested. I'm not quite understanding the point. Could you word that differently? And now she's, it's different. What I've learned from this diagnosis, and again, we're going out of order, the why of it. I'm happy to get into. But like, what I learned from it is how to communicate more efficiently with people.

Could you explain the point I'm interested? I want to hear more, for example. And then helping condition other people how to better communicate with me. Whenever we have a new director, I don't say I have autism. I'd say, hey, I need to be spoken to very directly. I don't pick up on the new ones. If you want to give me a line read, if we don't have time for something, if you just say it.

Because when they, oh, that's great. You know what, why don't we do it this way and then blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Just tell me. And for people who don't know, like a lot of TV directors especially are very, they're coming onto a set. They're established, they're the guest

and everyone's established stars and they want to direct the episode, but they don't want to say, I'm not buying what you're doing. I need you to do it faster. Yeah, what's the point? Exactly. But they'll be like, yeah, try to get,

they speak in this code. And I can imagine like trying to decipher that code on a set would be really challenging. And even if I'm able to get to what they want, the inefficiency of it and all of the different things, and I don't know you, I have to imagine this is how you are, and I say this just by watching your performances. So I'm really making a judgment.

But there's so much in life to calculate at any given moment, and everything you have to calculate stops you or gets in the way from being present. And what you have, on the office, at least almost all the time, I mean it's edited, so they pick the takes, is what both you and Steve have on the office is it seems like you are completely in,

you are completely present. Like what is improvising, what is not, I don't know if anyone will know unless they look at a script, that is a superpower that if you're worried about doing something wrong or upsetting something, or the time limit, at least for, you can't be present. You have to have a complete safe space. I don't mean to project, so I'll just explain what I mean to that,

but does any of that connect with you? Totally. Like that's your superpower is being present. Yes, but there are sets and roles and situations where I really struggle as an actor to be present. And exactly what you said, like, I hate to use the word safe space because it's such an overused word. but quite literally feeling safe.

By Greg Daniels created a safe space. And Ken Koppas, who directed Larry Sanders show and other kind of semi-improvised shows, they created an environment, even with the guest directors, even with the writers there, is like, we're gonna find it. Everything is malleable. Finding it is the safest, hey, we're supposed to find it,

is the safest. I almost called my podcast finding it. Like, hey, we're gonna find it. Doesn't matter because we're finding. I'm sorry, but that is like, that's the ultimate. to save space and creativity. Yeah.

So as long as we got what was scripted eventually, usually earlier on, and then we could take as many takes as we wanted. Sometimes we'd have five takes, we'd have a solid scripted take. And we would do 17 takes because there's more to just explore and have fun with and then it would dry up and we would move on. So there was the parameters for me and Steve,

and all of the actors for that matter to really sink in and just respond to exactly. what's in front of us in a way that you need to do to do successful improv. But when you have things you have to think about, like, in a simple version that there's no way around, we have to hurry up, we don't have time in a way that isn't as efficient. The director said I could do this, but I don't really know, are my annoying people? Am I wasting people's time? And that's interpersonally as well.

Like, now whenever anybody checks their watch, I have to ask, do you, do you want to go? Are we talking too much? Right. Because I, for better and for worse, don't trust until I know somebody their ability to establish their own boundaries. So I feel this sense of, because I've missed people's boundaries so much, the first two years after my diagnosis, I was saying sorry to everything preemptively just in case. I'm by the way, sorry, I don't know if I'm changing the frame.

Is this fine? Like, just checking in with everything. Like, just fucking be. And it's that calculating stuff. This is really rich and really valuable. Talk me through a little bit about, again, going back a little more in the history. Like, I want to know you had some inkling.

Bill Lawrence brought it up as a possibility. You went and got a diagnosis. I want to know how that worked. And then how did you felt, you talked about how you felt relieved, but I imagine did you feel sad or heartbroken or confused at the same? same time, too, did it make you depressed?

Like, talk me through just that, the arc of that discovery and how it affected you in terms of a personal transformation? In grade school, I was always in special classes. Just learning disabled type of stuff, you know, just like the study hall that was a little small, blah, blah, blah, blah. Short bus. Yeah. I think that term, I don't really care, but I think that term is a bit stigmatized.

and for whatever reason, I'm trying to be conscious of it. We're cutting, we're cutting that out. Don't worry, don't worry. There's, I'm going to throw some things in. I don't think it's worth, absolutely. I don't think it's worth cutting out because there's nothing bad. I mean, it's up to you. That's fine, but like, but.

It's offensive. It's, it's one of those, it's one of those things we would like, in the 70s and 80s, be like, oh, the short bus kids. I think if it is offensive, I think it's oddly offensive for the wrong reason, as if being on a short, the idea of being a short bus makes sense. hey, these people, there's less people like this than like this. So statistically, the bus doesn't need to be as long. You know, it's like saying, oh, you have a sedan, we have an SUV.

Okay. There were things that happened in school that we could get into, but not the point. The point of it is all these things and needing to go to these special schools and being really embarrassed coming back to my main school. and like, it always, I always felt like, what did you struggle with in school? Why were you put there? You're so articulate, so brilliant,

your mind works at a thousand miles per hour. What was your struggle? I could only, I've been thinking about this, and I could only answer from my memories of a kid. So I don't know. What I have to imagine is, can we call your mom? Yeah.

What's her name? Debbie. Debbie? Yeah. Let me talk. Hi. Hi, Debbie, Mrs. Glassman. Hi, I'm here with your son, Rick.

My name's Rain Wilson. I'm an actor and a podcaster. Yes, how are you? I was on the show The Office. Did you ever watch The Office? I watched every single episode of The Office, and you were phenomenal in it. You know, my dad's ringtone when I call is the Office theme.

Wow, the Glassman family is all in on the Office. The Glassman family is. My family loves the office. Would you mind holding on one moment while I say goodbye? Somebody, oh, no, he's still here. Okay, I've got somebody putting carbon monoxide. Tell him to not put the carbon monoxide in the house, Mom. I keep telling you we don't want the carbon monoxide in the house.

No, the idea is keep the carbon monoxide away. Out of the house. Out of the house. In the exhaust pipe. Out, out of the house. She keeps putting carbon dioxide in the house. Debbie, Debbie, I just need a minute. I'm talking to your son.

Rick. Richard? About, not a very Jewish name, Richard. It's an English, old English medieval name. Richard. You know what, though, we go way back, us Jews. We're all over. You are all over.

So we were old English too, you know. We'll pull it together and post. Debbie, we're talking about his history. Hold on. We're talking about Rick's history. with the autism diagnosis and just kind of like what it was like growing up.

Say PEP, which is the school I went to. PAP? PEP, PEP, PEP, POSitive education program. When I was asking him and he was unable to answer this question, I was like, what did you really struggle with in school that had you put into kind of special programs?

Because he's like, he's so brilliant, he's articulate, he's funny, his mind moves at a thousand miles per hour. He's obviously incredibly successful, built in an amazing career. but what were the struggles like in elementary school or junior high specifically? He was like reading comprehension or focus or do you remember because he doesn't. Well, what we do.

As a matter of fact, his father just walked by and his father is going to answer that question right now. Why, you have to deal with the carbon monoxide? Mom, you answer it in such a loving, supportive way. Yeah, don't let your judgy father answer that. Oh, damn it. Hi. All right. This was it.

Well, both of you. It was the insecurities of him thinking he was incapable of getting work done that put him in classes with special teachers so that they could help him. The funny thing about Ricky was, he told Ricky not to do something. He wanted to do it even more. Yeah, well, if he told Ricky not to do something, he wanted to do it even more. But the funny thing about it was is he would start to literally have a fit that he would have to do his homework and say, I don't know how to do it, I don't know what I'm doing, I can't do this. The phone would ring, somebody from school would call up to ask him a question about the homework or the work. And all of a sudden, Ricky knew all the answers.

Ricky knew exactly what to do. Wow. When someone else needed his help, he was the one that was there to help them. But when he was on his own, he really did not have the confidence to think that he was able to succeed in getting something accomplished. So he was put in special classes so that he would get that extra help. wrap this up. And that started out really lovely. It started out with very patient, very understanding,

very loving teachers who gave him the time to work things through at his own pace until he got older. And then the teachers weren't as kind and the teachers weren't as nice and it wasn't a good scene. That's too bad. I'm sorry to hear that.

No, it was really actually really bad. Ricky is wanting to wrap this up, but I'm enjoying it. I'm really enjoying And Mr. Glassman, do you have anything to add about... Well, no, Mr. Glassman walked away once he knew that his father didn't want to speak to a minute. What an asshole. God. Wait, no, I just wanted to hear your perspective from when I was a kid because you were the one in the school.

Not that I don't want to talk to dad. You know what? No, no, I know that. Tell... It's just too long and involved. Yeah, yeah. Mom, we're going to let you go. Okay.

All right, love you, bye. Love you, bye. Your dad owns a rugstore in Cleveland? Yeah, I have a problem with, and my dad go back and forth on this. And like a lot of successful businesses, they like to have a lot of happy customers. And we don't have one customer in Marshall Roy Gallery, which is ridiculous, because everybody at Marshall Road Gallery is family. So, the diagnosis.

So I had these problems as a kid. They went away. I didn't have these problems anymore. These problems were the way I, my social interactions were very, very difficult and or non-existent. I didn't communicate very consistently with people. I had very, very, very bad OCD and things needed to be done a very certain way, which isolated me from people. I got into comedy. I learned how to communicate jokes.

and the rest of most of the people I interacted with were, you know, comedians and you didn't have to connect in the ways you do in the real world. It could just be bits. And I... And you were good at recognizing the bit. There was something in your brain,

it was like, oh, that's... I see the construct of the bit. Either exactly or the exact opposite. And what I mean by that is I never knew if this was a joke or not. So I developed the comedy to treat everything as if it were real, but it's a joke. I've said this on my podcast a lot, but I don't find jokes and sincerity mutually exclusive. They're both. Hey, we're being playful, we're being silly.

Everything is inspired by something real. I am treating this very real. But my tone, my energy, the way we're doing it is going to be a joke. because I never knew, which then led to people never knowing if I was joking or serious. And that was 10 years of my life. I always knew everybody knew I was joking. Of course they know. How could they not? There was no world where I would recognize that they didn't know I was joking. And a flaw in the social system is people won't tell you. People would rather just be like, okay, and walk away than saying, hey, I'm not understanding your intention here and you're making me uncomfortable. So for the longest time, I'm now like, great.

That's so funny. Can I just pop in there real quick? My therapist, who also sees my wife and is our couple's therapist named Bruce, he's amazing. And he says that the number one tool for communication in a relationship is the phrase, that didn't feel good. What's your intent? And it was exactly, and it's so funny because that's exactly what you said. But it is, it is an issue.

Like when stuff comes at us and either someone was rude or not being, they weren't meaning to be rude. They were like, what can you get to the point? Yeah. Yeah. So that didn't feel good. What's your intent? It's so important in a marriage and it immediately slows things down. Immediately you take stock of your sensitivity.

And all you're saying is it didn't feel good. That doesn't mean that you're being an asshole. You're not pointing any fingers. You learn in second grade. You talk an eye feelings, not you dids. Yeah. Not accusations. Yeah, it also develops a shorthand because if you say, hey, that didn't feel good, and I say, oh, sorry, I was just doing this.

You could then say, even though you were joking, I didn't like it, now I know not to do it. Or you could be like, I totally, that makes so much sense. I thought, oh, I don't care, keep doing it. And then you develop this shorthand, this trust and giving people the benefit of the doubt. Not only is it important when you recognize that I don't feel good to communicate it, what seems to be an obstacle for a lot of the people that I meet is they don't even know that something didn't make them feel good in the moment. I just, they don't understand their feelings. They may understand that doesn't feel good, but they don't know why, let alone have the confidence and ability to communicate it. It doesn't

even have to be a negative thing. It could be the me joking all the time. It could be the me annoying everybody with all of my bits. I'm sure you've had some relationships and some girlfriends who are like, Rick, will you cut it with the bits? Yeah. So in close relationships, it wasn't as much of a problem because there wasn't as much of a need for me to hide behind them. Because, because, like, when you're going to a comedy club, I'm in comedy mode. I only see these guys twice a week. I'm doing bits. I want to be funny. I want to be laughing. This isn't the sitting at home and having, I'm so grateful for my podcast to be having these long-form conversations with peers and friends. You have a podcast? It's called Take Your Shoes Off.

and it doesn't have to be all bits. I'm going a little bit all over the place. I want to still answer what you're saying, but I used to only do bits because not just because I wanted to laugh and I recognized. One thing I recognized was laughing. I didn't know how you were feeling.

I didn't know if you liked me or not. I still don't know if you like me or not, but I knew that that's a real laugh and that feels. I chased it. I want that because it was honest. If I make somebody, if I if you give somebody a present some people thank you so much some people oh this is nice you don't know how they feel if you make somebody angry they might ignore you they might overreact you don't know

the laugh is evens a playing field but um I also then kind of develop this thing where I just talk in jokes it just became it's just you do bits you know you saying you've a podcast it's just a little bit it's just a thing you don't even it's just constant bits you're doing Um, I didn't know how much I was bothering people. And when I got my, I noticed a couple of things that made me think, wait a minute, what is, do I have autism? I don't have autism, but like, kind of. All of these things that I'm, it wasn't worth finding out. I'm in a basketball game with Bill Lawrence.

I'm in that game because you saw me do stand up and he invited us, me and some of my friends, some of my friends and me. Then he asks me to audition. I'm in the show. The show is three years. The show ends. So I'm in this game for almost six years. And I got an email one day from him, which is with this, I am phenomenal, that video I made. Joel McHale plays Bill.

Yeah. His script is the email from Bill. So the actual dialogue he says in this short film video that you made is almost word forward with the exception of Joel improvising, and I say this for Bill's benefit, Joel improvising how much he loves anal sex. I just want to let that be known because Bill said he got a lot of mess. talking about how much he loves anal. So that was not part of the email. So basically I got kicked out of this basketball game

because I was bothering people. Oh, wow. Some of the stuff I disagreed with, some of the stuff I didn't realize, but I believe. I am phenomenal. It's called that because I am the best basketball player out there. I am funny. I am good.

Everybody likes me. And then I found out not only am I not the first one picked, they don't even want me there. And I'm like, what the fuck are you? you talking about? Why? Because I want to win, you fucking cucks. You know, like, I, like, I went into this mentality. Like, if I, if I lose, we have to sit and wait a game. Nobody wants to do that. There's only one value I have to bring, and that's to win and to yell at people for, for shooting threes when it's a three-on-one fast break and get to the fucking hoop and just setting hard picks

and not recognizing that a lot of these guys are 50-year-old comedy writers just looking to get away from their family and have a good time. And I'm just cut to the fucking hoop. You know, just like yelling. And though I don't think I'm wrong for my instincts of wanting to win and play aggressively, I had no idea that this was stepping on other people's enjoyment. And within two weeks, I got kicked out of a basketball game and a poker game with what I thought were my friends who think I'm the funniest best guy in the world. And then, like, we don't want Rick here. He's too aggressive. He talks too much shit, blah, blah, blah, blah. And Bill, it was a very, very kind, very, very direct email that made me feel very sad and appreciative at the same time, which was,

really? I'm like, wait, these people, and I'm just like, I read this email and I had been thinking about it for a little bit. And he goes, it seems like you lack awareness on how people receive you, which would be the thesis statement of what I'd been missing, that one little thing. And it's like, yeah, obviously. But it wasn't that I don't know how they think about me. I knew.

There's a Mark Twain quote that I love. it's being, it's, I'm paraphrasing, but being wrong isn't the problem, it's knowing you're right when it just ain't so. Like I knew. Wait, say that again? The issue isn't not knowing something. Yeah. That's fine.

It's knowing something that isn't the case. So like, if I don't know how they feel about me, I then at least answers are easy, questions are hard. Like, okay, I have to navigate this and figure this out, but I knew how they felt about me. I'm the first one picked. I'm the best basketball player. let's go baby and like that blinded me from the truth which was the negative stuff can i can i can i there's so much more to cover here in this in this story i'm really in being very sincere and saying i love hearing this i think the audience is going to love hearing this it's it's fascinating but what's

the point no no no i know what the point is but i do want to say something and i don't want to come across as offensive. It's hard when you say someone is like on the spectrum because part of me thinks like, well, is there a spectrum and where is the line? Because who you described like lack of emotional self-awareness, that describes Michael Scott and Dwight Shrewt. Also, it describes Rayne Wilson, who had very dysfunctional parents who were not very, didn't have emotional intelligence. They They both came from very traumatized backgrounds. So I grew up really feeling like a fucking alien in humanity. I am not making that up at all.

I felt like I didn't fit in at all. And I've told this story, yeah, and it's why I tell this story of like, I would literally observe kids in the lunchroom of how they're normal, easy, what's that? It's called masking. I remember you talking about that. I'm like, yeah, he's masking. Oh, it has a name.

I didn't know that. Yeah. And yeah, and I would see someone come up to someone else and say like, hey, bro, how was your weekend? And, yeah, and clap twice on their back. And then I would try it on my friend Mike or Julie. And I'd be like, hey, bro, how's your weekend? And hit them twice.

And, of course, it went terribly. And I'd look at what they were wearing. I'd want to wear the same thing. Oh, I need a member's only jacket and a KISW Seattle's Best Rock T-shirt in order to fit in. but it was all like trying, I felt like an alien. It was third rock from the sun. It was a star man.

It was the alien. Brother from another planet, observing human behavior. Does, you know, and also, and just ask my wife, really not so good at reading emotional cues and being sensitive to people. And I've had a lot of blowups and lost some friendships from my inability.

I don't know that I would diagnose myself as being autistic, but how does that work? And I don't want to be offensive about what the diagnosis is. I can explain the way that it was explained to me. So my diagnosis was from an adult behavior specialist who specializes in autism, and she explained to me that it's a lot more difficult to diagnose an adult than a child because they have adapted to masking is not always a... a conscious decision, but it does become part of who you are. The term masking, because you said, you know,

the term is basically just, it's putting on a mask to be more palatable. It's easier for me to show you what you want than it is for me to be who I am. And now that's not exclusive to autism. Sure. That's just social peer pressure fitting in tribalism that needs us to be accepted.

And to be accepted is, I don't know, to be seen and accepted is one of the more human things that you could possibly want, and everybody has their own obstacles. Neurodivergent, neurotypical, it's all over the spectrum. But to mask is to fit in, and sometimes we do it consciously. Like, I better drink so people think I'm cool. I better wear this cool KWIS shirt so people think I'm blah, blah, blah, blah. That's more curated than the fundamental version of it is like, hello, how are you feeling

today. It's pretty tough outside sometimes. You know, it's like saying things that maybe you believe, you're just, you're just doing the things that people do. And you're do, sometimes you do it so much that that is your life now. It's all, everything is just a mask and it's the most draining thing. You don't even want to interact with it. Also, you're not fooling anybody. Hey, buddy, how's your family feeling today? They're like, who is this fucking weird robot? It's not, doesn't work. But the way she explained the spectrum to me, and it's not, how far on the spectrum are you? Right. It's not, yeah, but he's less autistic than him.

Right. Also, I noticed myself giving two examples of him, and I want to make sure that I speak to, like, there's a big community of undiagnosed females because it's a completely different thing with them. But there are like pillars of character traits, some more common than others, none of which mean autism, not picking up on social cues, anxiety, sensitivity to textures, smells. OCD trends on it. There is difficulty communicating, whether it's having difficulties, a speech impediment or completely nonverbal. Like there's so many different things on the spectrum and I I talk about autism I quote Dr. Stephen Shore that says you met what if you met one person with autism It means you met one person with autism

Everybody is completely different But if you have this list of character traits and like in a video game character you want to give them a nine stamina But then you in ball handling you can only give them a four like you know you do these things If you are at is that a porno video game? Stamin and ball handling Nice Fucking nice That was some mad respect, right?

That was pretty good. Yeah, because I didn't see it until you said it. But no, it's an NBA jam. Oh! So you take these character traits, and at what point does it tip the scale of like, oh, this is, you, this person may have more obstacles

reading social cues than this person. That is higher than here, right? And if you have, and I think, I don't know if there's a, if there's a science to this because there's no blood work, there's no exact way of doing this, but like if it's five or six where you really, I'm tentative to use the word struggle, but rate high. Because struggle is sometimes is objective, but a lot of times it's a double-edged sword.

You know, my inability to do this makes me very good at this. So it's really how it's defined. But like, if you have enough of these things along the spectrum of character traits, not along the spectrum of autism, where he's on the spectrum, meaning out of all these things, there are certain amount of things where it's like, oh, he's not, he or she is, I'll just say fuck it, I'll say struggles. I'll say, has obstacles in these categories.

Yeah. Being sensitive to sounds doesn't mean you're autistic. What's the term? It's not mesophilia, but it's something. Do you guys know the term? Misophonia. My dad choose. There's a decent chant, I mean, I can,

Tell he's not eating now. Like, you could hear him from very far away. Yeah, sensitivity to chewing and eating is a big. Yeah, it doesn't mean you're artistic. Right. But if you are very sensitive to that. My friend, the actor, David Costable on the show Billions. Hi, Dave, if you're watching.

He has so, I mean, he's had to, like, grab me. Yeah, close your mouth. Close your mouth, though. Also, close your mouth. Because tell that to my wife. Are you saying when she's speaking or eating? When she's talking. Guys being guys.

Eating, eating. You know the name of this podcast. Guys being guys? Yeah. I should change the name? This episode. Okay. There's a shorthand with autism that I've noticed and I don't like.

I'm always afraid of talking about autism because it sounds like it's excusing something and I never mean it to, let alone want it to. Well, can I jump in and just say, as someone who has struggled with a lot of mental health issues, what does that mean? Mental health issues. That can mean someone in a sanatorium. That can mean someone who is so depressed, they've tried to kill themselves 10 times,

and it can be someone who struggles with anxiety a little bit on a daily basis. Like, you know, it's very hard. Everybody has health, good or bad. Everybody has mental health, good or bad. Everybody has their own. But nowadays, this term is thrown out. You know, mental health, mental health.

And it's, and it is a little bit tricky because, you know, I would say 80% of Gen Z says, I have mental health issues. It was like, what does that mean? You get sad sometimes. You get anxious sometimes. Guess what? That's being a human being. But at the same time, we have to be really, really sensitive because we've been so insensitive

for a fucking century about mental health issues. We have to be really, really sensitive to people that have that struggle. Everybody gets anxious. Everybody gets sad. Everybody doesn't like the way something smells. Everybody gets irritable. Everybody has low blood sugar. Everybody has something.

But there are, there, and one of my insecurities of talking about autism too often is, is treating it as an excuse as opposed to an experience because some people use terms for the shorthand only. For example, I'm sorry, I have a little bit of OCD, I have to have this, everything be straight. Okay, I get that. That's not obsessive compulsive disorder. Obsess and compulsive disorder. You can't function unless X, Y, and Z is in a certain place.

Yeah. And there are some people that it's more debilitating than others. But like, and I'm not offended when people say I have a little OCD, but I'm thinking like, you don't know what OCD is. You know how people were with, when, when lockdown happened and they were washing their chips in the sink? Like, that's, that's, that, that's, that's what OCD is. I had, I was, I had COVID protocols before COVID.

Like, you can't touch. You have to do this. You have to touch the, it's debilitating. Did you wipe down your grocery bags? I didn't wipe down my grocery bags, but if there was something that was outside, I would have shelves that this is for stuff that, like if there were gummies and you open it inside

there were individually packed gummies, that would go on my inside shelves. I would have, I still have, when I have outdoor clothes, indoor clothes, indoor clean clothes, and bed clothes. And sometimes I'll go out, I went outside today, right? These pants are now outdoor pants, but wearing them once they're not dirty,

so I have a closet for my outdoor clean. And that means I could wear these again, but I'm not going to put these with my clean clothes because then who fucking knows? There's nothing logical about it. But like that's OCD. So there are people who have neurodiverse obstacles that far exceed some of the obstacles,

A, that I have, or be that people recognize that I have, where I don't want to make people not feel seen by me talking about some of my stuff. But after doing this show, as we see a show, which is my favorite thing I've done, it's wonderful. And talking about it more on my podcast, having people from the show on my podcast.

You have a podcast? Take your shoes off. Why are you telling? Oh, because I want them to watch. And the take your shoes off is because that's a thing that is palatable. You need people to take their shoes off when they go in your podcast studio?

Yeah. And people get that because it's not that weird. I'm gonna leave my fucking shoes on. If you want me on the pod, if you want me on your pod, I am not taking my shoes off. How do you like me now? I think it sucks and I can't have you on my podcast.

Lying in the sand. Line in the sand. What if I put? Booty's on? No, you're not the first person to suggest this. You want who that other person is. Good luck. He's in prison now.

Do you remember when Wesley Snipes was in prison, but then for tax evasion, but then he got out and he did the expendables movie. And then when they go on the train at the beginning and they let Wesley Snipes's character out of these bars that he's in. And they're like, how did they get you? And he goes, tax evasion. It all comes around. This kicked in late, but it just kicked in and I want to get silly. And I don't know when we're going and how long we're doing. We're probably wrapping up soon.

But I just want to say, if you're ever willing to come on my podcast and get silly, you're going to have to take your shoes off. I'll take more than my shoes off. Good. Can I have my pants off if I do your podcast? Yeah, you wouldn't be the first. Oh, you've had other? I've had people with their pants off, their shirt off. We get wild.

I want to keep going if that's okay with you. Let me finish that one part. Okay. Why I've decided that I like talking about this is that since that TV show and me talking about the pod sometimes, I've had numerous people comment right when I've met them told me that they have since been diagnosed themselves. And why I think that's important,

because it was originally before the basketball game, if I'm, why do I need to know? What's the point of getting diet? It's not like it's gonna change me. The reason is there are so many things you could learn about the why. Some of my anxieties, though I still get them, I better understand why.

And it makes it so much more efficient to self-sooth. I know what positions to not put myself in, I know what positions are going to be difficult before going into them. I know how to ask for that safety. I know how to know when I can't get that safety. And that idea of learning how to communicate with other people and how to help them communicate with me, that's why it's so important to understand. Not I have autism so, but my mind works in a way that was not conditioned the way that

most of the people around my life have conditioned themselves and me. And there are things that are not intuitive for me that I didn't know. I've gotten so good at reading people's facial expressions. I got so good at knowing, that means you're hungry. Are you hungry? I've gotten so good at recognizing them because I had no idea what they were. I then was researching out of my own, both in books and audio tapes on people who were diagnosed themselves,

especially it's a certain type of person when they're diagnosed as an adult. And then on the podcast and asking questions of the why, Why did you say that? What does that mean? Could you say that differently? And I've just like- That's so cool. You would be learning on a podcast as you're going. Oh, yeah. That's so cool. And then watching it, before I was watching the person and editing and I'm watching me and seeing things that I missed and when I interrupted and why I did and when I could see that I checked out without expressing that I'm checking out. Like let them know that. You don't have to say you're boring me, but say, hey, I'm kind of not grasping or I'm losing a little bit of interest. Can we dive in differently or something? And seeing it, it really made me like very turned off. Like, oh, I don't like that.

Because you don't see yourself the way you see yourself when you get to see yourself. And we're critical of ourselves and we're insecure, et cetera. And some things are just that and insecurity. But some things are valid. Like, oh, it doesn't matter what people think. Just do you. But if everybody thinks this thing about you, take some accountability. Yeah.

And this self-love movement is beautiful and necessary, but not at the expense of growth. And I think editing yourself, watching yourself on a podcast or something is a great way to see yourself in a non-biased way. And yeah, the podcast has been so beneficial because you see things you don't like. You know, like an alcoholic anonymous. They talk about the things that you could change that are in your control and things you have to accept the way that they are. There's so much that's in our control to change. And change doesn't have to be a behavioral change. It could be acceptance of a limitation or acceptance of who or what you are. So my confidence has gone up so much. My diagnosis, I was so excited. Then I did, went through a two year,

almost two year depression. Wow. Because you talk about that. What, what were you depressed about? What was, felt like a baby. I felt like, I felt like, I'm, did it make you go back through your life? Oh, yeah. That's why the guy I never called. Oh, I, I screwed that up or that relationship or, yeah, some regret and remorse as well. Um, yeah. Um, yeah. Um, um, yeah. Um, um, Yeah. I just want to acknowledge what you might be feeling right now. And thank you for being brave enough to feel it here. So when I was younger and the experiences I had with the context both limited because of my age and just life experience, I guess that's the same thing. But like looking back at them, knowing more now, I get frustrated. when I'm remembering a memory and not what really happened. I'm seeing my relationship with my

brother through the eyes of a 10-year-old. And I don't know what it, even like calling my mom, like, I don't know. I only know what I was experiencing. And I get a bit frustrated that my experience is not my memory because I have a pretty good memory. I could remember the things that I felt. My experience of what I felt is so limited. I had such blinders on. I had no idea how other people were feeling. There's a stigma that people with autism don't have empathy,

which is, from my experience of now befriending many people on the autism spectrum, is so far from the truth. However, the ability to empathize is only as strong as your ability to see the thing you empathize with. And like... You have to recognize someone's pain

or someone else. struggle or where they're meeting up with an obstacle in order to be able to have compassion for them. So it's a recognition piece. And I find that a lot of these friends that I have made are extra sensitive to it. But someone might need to say, hey, I'm really hurting right now. They might not recognize a wince on the face or a lot of posture changes. So while you're going like this whole bunch, I'm just talking to you about how great my fucking coffee is. And you're like, this guy doesn't care about how I feel. This guy doesn't know how you feel,

and he would be interested if you expressed it to him. Yeah. Well, I want to say that there's a parallel here with my experience. It's very different, but there is a certain parallel, which was when I really got into therapy and when I really got into recovery and realizing kind of a lot of the trauma

I went through as a kid, and my mom took off when I was, I was a year and a half and that was in a really dysfunctional family and there was there was just a lot of shit. When I started unpealing that onion, I felt such a relief like, oh, that's why I'm an addict. On the onion of trauma? Of the onion of trauma and family history and family dysfunction. Oh, seeing how it played a role in it. Explain so much about how I was the way that I was, even just described.

how I was in the lunchroom with the pat on the back. Like, of course I was, because I didn't have parents that taught me some really basic things. Also, there are some things that maybe you, other people were able to figure out on their own that you didn't. Yeah. So I definitely went through some times of great depression

and remorse and almost grieving for that lost child, but I felt such a relief to know like, oh, I'm screwed up in this way. and there's a very good reason why I'm screwed up in this way. Now that doesn't mean, and it's like you say, that doesn't mean that my work then is done and I can just act however the fuck I want to act. It's like, okay, so how do I better myself?

How do I improve those blind spots? How do I function better with greater compassion and sensitivity in my marriage, in my life, in my friendships, in my work environments? That is on me. Because I think some people have the diagnosis of some kind of mental health issue and they look at family trauma and dysfunction,

and then they're like, that's it, and they're just gonna just stay the same. Yeah, well, that's, you have the why, and then what do you do with it? You have the why and like, okay, that is what it is or do you do something with it? And that, what you're saying about, oh, I had this trauma,

to not use it as an excuse, but to use it as a learning tool to understand. And that was where the hesitancy of the autism is and where I sometimes feel okay talking about it, which is this isn't an excuse, This isn't an identity. This is just a category that is still quite broad, but to better understand, like,

oh, if I had an alcoholic parent or a single parent household and or an issue with a sibling that, you know, a half-brother or a deceased or they were the, what's the term? You know, like the prodigal child. Gob smacked. Like, these are all, don't define who you are

and doesn't mean that you're the same as the next person in the experiences, but it does lead you down a path of better understanding of like, oh, here are some patterns of behavior. So with any type of diagnosis, whether it's, you know, autism or depression or OCD or, you know, child of an alcoholic or whatever the thing might be, it's just helps you better understand your own triggers. But the depression that I felt came to less about what it is that is the path of understanding.

And more so, I don't, didn't. I feel stupid, but I felt like, I felt helpful. I felt so unable. I'm a 30-something year old guy who now, I didn't, I wouldn't go on dates. I wouldn't believe my friendships that I then I've since developed as an adult. Like, is everybody lying to me? Is everybody, you know,

You went, hmm, I remember I was dating a girl who was telling me a story and I was listening and she said, you're not listening to me. And then I said, I am listening to you. And then I don't know if it was passive aggressive or not. I don't remember. You repeated back. My intention was proving, yes. Yeah.

Word for word. And she goes, okay, well, I don't like that you're doing that. No problem of her. She felt her feelings. But I said, what could I do? And she goes, well, people, you know, there's a call in response where people want you to go, or say like right so then I jokingly but like as she was talking I'd be like right right right right yes to this day when somebody does that I don't think that they're putting it on I also don't

know that they're not are you listening to me or are you wanting me to feel listened to and I have no idea and that's one of those calculations that I say keeps me from being present I well what I've learned I haven't been listening this entire time and if that bothers me Okay, if that bothers me, I feel like something I could control, I am now going to be trying to fix that. The depression came from that. The depression was, oh, am I, are you, do you, are you interested? Am I talking?

Do you not, should I, I'm sorry, do I, do you want? And it was just like, I was just, I was so sad. So when people were even nice to me, I'm like, people were always, I wasn't bullied as a kid. People were always nice to me. Nobody liked me. That's not true. It's a little hyperbolic, but I wasn't included.

And I don't say this as a victim. I say this as a person who was annoying. And when I had friends, I would ask to wrestle them and box them and touch them and be annoying. And it's like, but now what do I do? I felt like I'm a 30-year-old baby. I had to practice. One of the things that I was told to practice when people say, how you doing?

I say, good things. How are you? Just say it. I do a bit about this now, how you just say it. And speaking of that, what are some autism jokes and bits that you, You can say that I could never say. Ready go. Oh, I don't know what you can never say. Well, come on. Because if I told autism jokes, come on, that would be offensive. My jokes are about my obstacles and strengths with autism, not autism. I have a bit where I say, you know, I have a lot of

anxiety and a lot of stomach issues. And six years ago, I was diagnosed with autism my whole life. I just I thought I was Jewish. And I find that a lot of these neuroses are a very Jewish thing. So I guess you not being Jewish. Is it Judaism? Is it what? Is it what? Is it Judaism? I don't know what that means. It's a combination of Jewish and autism. Oh. Yeah, I guess they both have to Jautism. So what you have is Jautism. I'm just throwing that out. I was born with Jondis. Okay. But I thought maybe you could use that and put that in here. Yeah, that's your kind of your brand. Okay. My brand is offensive and not funny.

No, no, your brand is offensive and deconstructive. Okay. And then the funny, it just takes one little switch. You know, the office, obviously everybody loves for their own reasons and the same reason. But there really is something, and I was excited to come on this podcast, and we didn't talk about it much. And if you're willing to take your shoes off, I want to spend a lot of time with this when you come on. but I meant what I said, and this is an observation that I have made a long time ago, you and Steve's ability to be present is why, it's a little reductive to say is why you're funny,

but is a big reason why, to me, you're so funny. And it's because I believe you, I believe that character, I believe you. and I believe you so much, and that's also credit to like the show itself and that you're put in these situations that you get to play into this. And the great scripts and the great editing. Thank you to the, thank you to the,

thanks you to the crew. Being honest to me is the best way of being really, really funny. And I've leaned into that and I don't know if I've gone too far and sometimes I'll talk on stage, I'll be being so honest and I've noticed that it goes the other way sometimes

and sometimes when you're being so honest, people think you're joking. And that's like a new hurdle for me now. It used to be, oh, Rick's joking because he's being playful. No, no, I'm telling you the truth. I'm just doing it in a playful way because that's where I feel safe. And now I've gotten to the sign where like, I'm just trying to be as honest as possible

because it's so funny, you're able to, if you believe this person, then I don't, It's just, well, let me, I'll tell you an experience about that. So I did one of these improv shows where I was the guest monologist. Yeah, monologist. Monologist. And they just said, just tell, you get a prompt from the audience and just tell a monologue really from your life and be really truthful. And just really, people will know when you're making stuff up and exaggerating, like really be as truthful as possible.

And for me, not being a stand up. And then of course, for people they don't know, then they improvisers will spend a great deal of time like unpacking the story and telling different versions of it and it's inspired and influenced by the story that you tell. And it was so much fun to tell real life stories from my life that I didn't think were necessarily that funny and it was getting raucous applause

because I was just trying to be as truthful as possible. Yeah. about, I had this ball operation. I had an operation on my scrotum. Yes. A hydroceal, a little bit related. People don't understand, but he's bragging now. Yeah, yeah, it's one-up.

Yeah, I had the hydroceal. It's one-up. It's one-up. Which is a varicoseal, but with multiple heads. That's what a hydra beast is. We'll keep it in, but put him a picture. Anyway, so you have ball surgery, and people are now laughing, not because,

aha, balls, but because they believe you're vulnerable. Yeah, and I talked. about what it's like to kind of discover that you need scrotal surgery and going through it and what... Let me guess, left testicle? I'm gonna be really honest. I don't even remember which one it was.

I would put money on it, it's your left. I think it was my right. No, a lot of these vascular issues and things happen on the same side your heart is on. My wife would remember. But anyway, I'm sorry. So you're telling the story.

But yeah, I just, I want to reiterate that. I had this, just last week, I had this experience where I was just telling super truthful stories and it was getting big rounds of laughter and I wasn't telling any jokes. I was just trying to share my experience. So people dig that.

They key into that. And what a good sitcom is, is that is situational comedy. So if you have the funny situation, all you have to do is be honest in it. I found honesty being validated. It made it easier to be honest because, oh, people think this is funny since I'm being honest, and it got rid of the shame.

And that's that helped get out of the depression. Not that I don't know what somebody's thinking, because I still don't know, but accepted that I'll never, I didn't know before. I was so happy growing up. I thought I was the best. My mom applauded a bowel movement. She wanted me to play the piano for everybody.

I thought I was the best. Then I found out I'm not the best, and that made me very, very sad. And then as I tried to go back to be liked, I realized that before I had awareness and after I had an awareness had the same thing in common. I cannot control and I will never know how people feel about me. And it made it easier to accept, oh, this is just what it is.

Not saying, fuck you, I don't care what you think, but just this is what it is. And being honest about, hey, I'm feeling insecure right now. Hey, that hurt my feelings. Hey, I'm a little bored with what we're talking about. And I, you know, I want to. And that because that, that, that, that, that, that, has been validated for whatever reason, maybe because I made it silly

or because people thought it was a joke so they could hear it better, whatever. But what has come out the other end and got rid of help me with the depressive state of not knowing how people feel about me is the only thing I could do is be honest and the best way of being honest is being in touch with how I feel.

So I mean, it's corny to talk about that stuff. No, it's not corny. It's important because what you're talking about, is a transformational, philosophical, psychological, and spiritual change of like, I am going to now live my life in integrity and honesty and communication and learn about the internal environment and atmosphere and terrain of my emotions

and communicate my wants and needs. And this is what, you know, 80% of modern America is, is dealing with just that. So your transformation out of that diagnosis into living a more honest, grounded, integral life is, it's not corny. It's really important and it's important

for people to hear that story. The wants and the needs is, it seems like such a simple thing. People don't, many people don't know what they want and need, or at least can't differentiate between the two. That's where I know that as far as spirituality is concerned, one of the big ones is practicing gratitude. But that is to see that you actually have a lot of the things you want and need.

Well, listen, I'm on coffee. I've been eaten, so I'm in such a talkative mood. I know it's your podcast, but I always miss my dismount, and I don't want to go on too much, but I've been having a very nice time with you. Wow, I've never felt so rejected in my own podcast before. Oh, I was giving you an out. I'll stay and talk.

Let me, I'm gonna wrap it up. This is just so cool. I'm such a big fan of years. Oh, that's very kind. I feel really, really nice after this conversation. That's a great conversation. I learned a ton. I think people are gonna love to hear your story

and your perspective and... You know, I have a podcast. That's so crazy. I was just, you saw it. I saw you, that's why I saw, you saw it. I saw you, this. I telegraphed it. You, yeah.

You're good. You squint and you turned. You're indicating a curiosity that you were only doing with a bit. No, no, no, no. I thought I was doing it so subtly. That made me feel connected to you. You have a podcast.

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