Soul Boom - Serj Tankian: How Can Music be Harnessed to Change the World?

Episode Date: May 21, 2024

Rainn sits down with the iconic Serj Tankian, lead vocalist of System of a Down, for a profound exploration of music's transformative power. In this episode of Soul Boom, Serj delves into how music can change hearts, minds, and potentially the world. He shares personal stories and insights on the unique relationship between music, spirituality, and activism, revealing how his own experiences have shaped his views. Don't miss this deep dive into the intersections of art, identity, and global change with one of rock's most distinctive voices. Thank you to our sponsors! Waking Up app (1st month free!): https://wakingup.com/soulboom Fetzer Institute: https://fetzer.org/ Sign up for our newsletter! https://soulboom.substack.com SUBSCRIBE to Soul Boom!! https://bit.ly/Subscribe2SoulBoom Watch our Clips: https://bit.ly/SoulBoomCLIPS Watch WISDOM DUMP: https://bit.ly/WISDOMDUMP Follow us! Instagram: http://instagram.com/soulboom TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@soulboom Sponsor Soul Boom: [e-mail] Work with Soul Boom: [e-mail] Send Fan Creations, Questions, Comments: [e-mail] Produced by: Kartik Chainani Executive Produced by: Ford Bowers, Samah Tokmachi Spring Green Films Production Supervisor: Mike O'Brien Voicing Change Media Theme Music by: Marcos Moscat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When you're creating, whether it's music or art or any version of creativity or writing, you have to be present. And that presence, that awareness is a walking meditation, simply. They're having many times on stage where you kind of get lost in the moment and you don't know where you are, you don't know who you are. You're just living the music. You're within the music. And that is the most beautiful and honest form of.

the arts expression that is a part of you and you are a part of it. But there are times where you're completely lost. And in those lost moments, that clarity, that honesty is unique. Hey there, it's me, Rain Wilson, and I want to dig into the human experience. I want to have conversations about a spiritual revolution. Let's get deep with our favorite thinkers, friends, and entertainers about life, meaning, and idiocy. Welcome to the Soul Boom podcast. Serge, welcome to Soul Boom.

Thank you. It's a pleasure being here. Good seeing you. You were on the Soul Pancake and now you're on the Soul Boom. I'm on the Soul Train. Soul Train. That's a little bit different. Yeah.

I remember. Don Cornelius. That's right. Describe that space between the sacred silence and sleep. Oh. Let's just start with that, shall we? Am I the first to ask that question? Yes.

Okay. But it's also the first question. It's like, you know, you just like, yeah, knocked me on the head with a bat. That lyric always hits me. I love System of a Down, always have you guys came out of the gate and just were like, what the hell is this? You know, it really was chop suey. It was kind of this amalgamation of metal and Armenian folk music and, you know, searingly

personal and alternative little, some nirvana sprinkled in there and a lot of rage against the machine and it was such a revelation and I remember speaking to a young Baha'i kid and I was like and he was like an artist and he's like you know what should I do I'm a Baha'i I want to make the world a better place and be a good Baha'i and I want to be an artist and I was like you know what you should do you're musician right we need a Baha'i system of a down that's what we need go do that I don't think he listened to me but I'll never forget a lot of Baha'i friends in L.A a lot of Iranian Baha'i friends. Right. And a lot of them are artists actually. My friend Azam Ali and Keith Azami and you know just it's quite interesting. Yeah. In fact in New Zealand the house that we

are getting totally away from your question but we bought the house from a Baha'i man who was who was from Holland. Very very interesting. Anyway, to answer your question, sacred silence alludes to Native American understanding of spirituality and it's it's the place. place that you go to if you meditate and everything is lost and everything is found through the different veils of the sacred silence. And so it's a special place of meditation, I guess, if you will. I read a lot of Tom Brown Jr. books. I don't know if you ever read them. No. Tom Brown was like a survivalist. He wrote a series of books about his grandfather, would be grandfather who was basically a sage, a Native American sage, and just the whole spirituality of Native American,

you know, world living within the confines of nature as part of nature. And sleep, we know what sleep is. So somewhere in between, you know, it's a beautiful thing because I think when people go to sleep and is it called REM, REM sleep, when that kicks in, there's a moment where you're meditating and you just don't know it you know um it refers it refers to that moment that specific unique moment are you able to find sacred silence in your life it's hard for me with kids get out of here um you know sometimes less than usual less than before i mean you know i think before having kids and i'm being totally honest before having a family and kids i had more time to meditate i feel like you know and sit down and had a more regimented schedule not

just of work, but meditation. Now I wake up and, you know, I had a friend who basically goes, when I wake up, I roll really fast so nobody punches me in the face, you know, like roll out of bed, you know? So somewhere in between that and before, you know. But no, I do make time whenever I can, especially when I really feel I need it, because I know the benefits of it. I've been meditating for many years. When I meditate, I'm more myself. That's a good way of putting it. And I frankly, now that we're having this conversation, I feel like I want to change the name of meditation to sacred silence. I want to make time for some sacred silence. I like that. I like that too. I think people can maybe identify with that, you know, in a more meaningful, richer way. Years ago, I started really

looking into indigenous cultures and their belief systems, whether it's Maori or, you know, Aboriginal. Part of your year you spend in New Zealand. In New Zealand. So, yeah. So Maori, Aboriginal, Australian, Native American, North, South America. And the more I read, the more I realized that they are very much linked to each other, even though these societies never physically met each other because there was not that type of transportation at the time. They all lived within the confines of nature. They all had these incredible spiritual knowledge, this kind of, you know, whether it's a

shaman being able to kind of see into the future or, you know, hear things or, you know, there's just like this incredible world of intuitive resonance that used to be a part of our basic existence before we really gave power to knowledge and left brain kind of development, which also is great. I actually hate the word God. I love the I love the combination of the spirit that moves through all things and creator. It kind of just makes more sense. And that's Native American. Yeah. And then I want, let's stay on this for a little bit because that that was really important to my journey as well. And in my first book, the bassoon king, I talk about, uh, Wakantanka,

the Lakota idea of the great mystery. And I really couldn't get with God. God was just too loaded for me. Yeah. But Wakantanka, the great mystery, this force that, you know, rides through all things that this, this cosmic energy that's beyond time and space. and is inherent in nature and is not, has zero personification. And I think that's one of the things, there's so much that we could learn from indigenous spirituality, but one of the things is that a higher power or creator or creative force, it's never a dude.

No. It's never just like a guy. It's never Zeus, you know? And I call it in Soul Boom, Sky Daddy. It's never like a Sky Daddy. It is like the great father, but it's not pictured as like a, a guy with an agenda. Right.

I think monotheism brought that whole paternalistic world view. Yeah. Right? Like, and even before then, you're right. Whether it's the 12 gods of Sumer or 12 gods of Greeks or the, you know, the Romans, it was very much based on that. My friend Reza Aslan, who I had a podcast with a metaphysical Mokeshake, he wrote a book on God. And his conclusion is we should all be pantheists. Because he said, actually, that's the most true form of worship is to see God in the sun

and to worship the God of the trees or the wind or the God of the ocean or the God of time or light or what have you. But in all the pantheistic religious viewpoints, that was never, the goal wasn't like, I'm going to worship the sun and you worship the ocean. These are all facets of one kind of creative force. Absolutely. And monotheism basically created devils out of the other gods because they wanted to convince everyone there was one God. So, you know, but it was hard because the farmers prayed for rain, right? To the specific God related to that.

And they're like, no, no, no, no more praying to that God. That's not going to help you. He's a devil. And what's the devil? You know, very interesting. If you look at the whole kind of progression of religion and spirituality throughout the ages, which you cover really well in your book. It's very, very interesting. I like how you draw parallels in your book too with the quotes that you do from each of them based on specific ideas, be it love or, you know, any other moral, you know, kind of issue. Is prayer ever part of your sacred silence or is it just contemplation?

I've kind of over time developed a unique meditation technique that encompasses prayer. It encompasses gratitude, like giving gratitude in the mornings especially, body awareness, and transcendental meditation. It's like a mix thing. You should patent that. You could get, you can make some, make some coin, bro. Make some coin, right, right. That total antithesis to spirituality. Perfect. Thank you. How do I cash in? Yeah. So, you know, it's just whatever works for, for each person, I think. You know. What does the prayer component of that practice look like?

I'm just intrigued because- Visualization. Okay. To me, the power of prayer is visualization. It's aiming to be a better version of yourself for everyone around you and the planet. That's literally it. In the Baha'i faith, there's a quote

that I've used quite a bit in interviews, and it's about how art, is the same as prayer. So the idea that prayer is service, prayer is acts of kindness, prayer is connection, and prayer is invention, and part of invention, because you're emulating that great creative divine force of creating the universe out of nothing.

You know, the fashioner is one of the titles of God. And when you fashion, because you do a lot of fashioning. So you fashion poetry. You've even got jewelry now. Is that right? I used to. Yeah.

I have. You've done poetry. You've done jewelry. Certainly songwriting. Right. Painting. Yeah. And now books as well.

But this act of emulation of that divine spark by where there was nothing, then there is something beautiful and lively and that and transportive and narrative. And these are divine aspects. of that creative force. And we both know that when we're in the midst of one of these creative activities, we are completely lost to the universe, and it's a form of meditation itself, right? You lose time. When you paint, like when I paint, I'm completely just lost because I'm so hyper-focused

on what I'm doing, and my arms are moving by themselves, and you're doing all this stuff. And then when you stop and you're done, you look at the time, that time is just like disappeared. It just went by. and same with music same with all of it and again the creator right the creator is a part of us we are also creating what are you focusing on which where is your creativity taking you right now because we we hung a couple of times maybe 10 years ago or so and it's good to it's good to reconnect but you're always up to something new whether it's a coffee company or a social you know activist

kind of organization um where is Where is your energy taking you right now? It's pretty interspersed over many disciplines in terms of creativity. One is a lot of film scoring, film and TV scoring. Oh, wow. I've been doing that for a decade plus, and I've got two indie films I'm working on right now and a major streamer series. I've done a bunch of those over the years with some director friends.

And I really enjoy that because it just to be creative within limitations is a, it's a special thing for me because I've always been creative without limitations. Right. So for me, it's just a way of like really realizing someone else's vision, but doing it creatively. So I really enjoy that painting. I'm still doing. All my paintings are musically scored. We have exhibitions here and there are different galleries here in New Zealand. What do you mean musically scored? You press a button on the painting and then it has a speaker behind it? That's how we started. We started with speakers actually embedded within the paintings.

Are you kidding? No, no. I mean, that was the first concept. But then we realized it's going to, yeah, it was awesome. I was joking, but now I totally picture that. Became a technical nightmare. So we just realized that it would be a lot better if we created a system where we can use a smart app and you download the free smart app.

You walk into a gallery and it recognizes the painting using optical recognition and plays you the music while you're walking around with your headphones. So that's what we do. All of my paintings are musically scored. The book I'm doing, Coffee Line, Cavat Coffee, that I started in 2018. We're doing that. We're actually opening up a gallery cafe in Eagle Rock.

In May or June, we're doing the build-out now, putting out a couple of records, doing a couple of shows with System in the next number of months, and some other stuff. Are your records more of your solo stuff? Yeah. I've got a rock record called Foundations, coming out through Gibson records this year.

And then a record of collaborations and, you know, collaborations covers and some other collages is what I call it, tidbits. Nice. And what system of a down doing these days? Well, we're gearing up for a festival. Those guys just hate you at this point. I mean, are they just like, surge for fuck's sake? Will you just be a rock star and sing in our band and go back to L'Alappaloosa? and yeah, just, just seeing you demonic pretty boy.

Yeah, yeah, well, I'm not a pretty boy, but thanks for the compliment. Demonic? Demonic pretty boy. That's high, qualified. It's very high quality and qualified. I know that's a loaded topic. That's been a big topic for 20 years. Read the book, no.

You know, it is a loaded topic, but it's also not. You know, when it comes to truthfulness, it's actually very simple. and going back having to do with the band, we, you know, we've had incredible unexpected success as a very far-flung kind of progressive metal band with our toxicity record in 2001 and touring and doing what we did. And after many years of touring,

when we were making the last few records which we made together, mesmerized, hypnotize, we made those recordings were done at the same time, then released us two records with six months of each other. in 2005 and 2006, before those sessions, when we first started those sessions, I told the guys, guys, this kind of cyclical thing that we're doing with, you know, making records for a year,

you know, touring for a year. Touring for two years at that time, you know, doing all this promo publicity. It was just cyclical. It was like, I gotta stop. And I also wanna do my own thing. I have other artistic adventures that I wanna, you know, get on. Part of it was, we had so much creativity and impact

coming into the band specifically with Darren's songwriting and me wanting to bring in music as well because over time he became a better lyricist and I became a better musical songwriter, a better composer. So it became kind of like a push and pull, which is really good for bands actually because it's a yin and yang kind of thing, too strong creative forces. And it has broken up so many bands. And it has also broken up. And it has torn apart so many bands.

So before Mesmereripatizedized, I basically told the. guys, listen, I'd like to take a hiatus. I'm not saying I never want to do this, but I'm saying I can't do this right now anymore, right? And I want to do my own thing and also take time off and have a life, you know, and all of that stuff. It wasn't taken well at the time. I won't get into that.

But years later, we started touring again in 2011. And it became a fun thing, you know, because it left kind of nothing was totally resolved, creatively, but it became a fun thing because we had, least put everything to the side and said, look, we're friends, we're brothers, we've known each other for a long time, we still respect and love each other, let's go have fun and tour together. And we've been doing that since, you know, not as much as, you know, they would like, let's say, or I'm not going to speak for each and every person of the band, because that wouldn't be fair of me either, but generally, I'm the least person that wants to tour.

Part of that is physical because it's tiring. I've done it for 20, 25 years, and I had to back surgery a few years ago. I'm much better now and all of that. But part of it is that. Part of it is it's artistically redundant, you know, after a while, you know, because it's groundhogs today. You're repeating yourself. You know, David Bowie said the first two weeks of every tour is basically, I'm paraphrasing, but, you know, creative after that is redundant kind of thing, which is correct. I don't know. So it's that. But I do enjoy playing with the guys. And when it's a one-off, it's actually fun. Because there's no pressure to do this whole rigmarang of a long tour or press or anything.

You just rehearse together, make your dumb jokes, have food together, and then go and play that one show and it becomes a hurrah. So that's what we've been doing. And I'm grateful for that. How do you guys hook up with Rick Rubin? Right. Because even at the time, he was a big deal. Absolutely.

He's been a big deal for 30 years. Yeah. So Rick Rubin was friends with Guy O'Siri. Guy is a manager. used to run Maverick Records for Madonna under Warner. He discovered Alanis Morissette. He discovered Alanis Morisset. That's right.

So Guy was a friend of our managers at the time, David Van Bueniste. And so we were playing the Johnny Depp's Club. Viper Room. Yeah. Could I forget? We were playing the Viper Room, and he gets a call saying, oh, Guy and Rick might come by, you know, or Rick might come by, you know. And we're like, when?

Like, we're about to go on, you know, and we want to make sure he's there. So we kind of delay our set, you know, until Rick comes. And surely enough, he came. And that night he brought Tom Arello with him. Whoa. Which I didn't know until later. Yeah. Because I remember Tom saying, you know I was there at the Viper Room, right?

I'm like, no shit. So, and all I remember was being on stage, and it was early on in the band's career. Tomarillo. From Rage Against the Machine, by the way. Okay. All I remember was being on stage, doing our crazy, crazy. antics, right? And looking at Rick, he was sitting... Tell me about your crazy antics, because I never saw you guys live.

System of it down, especially early days. Early days was really spectacle to see because we didn't look or sound like anyone else. It was just like, it was kind of like, did they just put people on drugs on stage? Like it was just like, I can't believe that's happening because it would just go from like a really... Like headbanging, thrashing or pogoing or just... All of the above? Kiss or what? Not kiss.

Well, although two of the guys are huge kiss fans, but I would say dynamics were really extreme. So you go from really something mellow to like just fucking crazy, which at the time wasn't really something people did. Merging of genres, tempo changes, you know, just dynamics, really dynamics. And I remember seeing Rick sitting at the top of a booth, like on the seats of the booth. And because there was a crowd of people and Viper Room's not that big, you know. and he was laughing. He was laughing like, I'm kind of like, what the fuck is this laughing kind of thing?

And I love that. Love that because all of the music executives we were meeting were incredibly serious and trying to pitch us with go-to marketing terms, you know, in saying that I think maybe you can fit in here or there and the other, and we're just like, what the fuck are they talking about, you know? Do they even like the music, you know? And when he left, I knew he got it.

I knew he understood that we are dramatizing our music. We're going over the top. You know, everything we do is accentuated, but we mean it, you know, and he got it. So after the show, I remember, and I'm very shy as a person, I remember going up to him and when I met him and I said, would you consider producing us? He didn't say no, but he didn't totally say yes because he had a new deal brewing with Sony and he was switching labels, partners and all of that stuff. But he said something like, I would really love to do that if I can.

you know um so that was our start of the relationship with rick ruban who's been an incredible friend mentor producer label head whatever you want to call it um for many years yeah he's a unique guy yeah i mean his his book on creativity is really cool right exceptional i mean i wanted to write a philosophy book he he ended up doing it yeah yeah it's uh it's uh it's it's it's it's pretty magical very profound. Yeah. Yeah. Did you ever, have you ever read,

I know it's a left field question? Inayat Khan. Hazrat Inayat Khan. He's a Sufi musician scholar. He's written a bunch of spiritual books. But he uses music as his metaphor for everything spiritual. But some aspects of his book reminded me of him, and I told him that. Because just like loaded sentences.

one sentence and you're line blown. Yeah. Your book is so cool. I haven't finished it yet. I'm really excited to finish it. Thanks. Down with the system. It's memoir, but it's also manifesto.

And can you talk a little bit about your inspiration for the book and combining those two kind of forces telling your story, but never separating your story from your mission? Right. So a couple of years back, I got a call from an agent in London, and he was interested in a book. And I said, oh, that sounds great. I've put out a few poetry books. I'd love to talk to you. We got on Zoom, and obviously he was referring to a memoir. And I said, listen, I'm not really down for that yet. I don't know. Maybe it's just not the right time for me, that kind of. And he said, well, what kind of book do you want to write? And I said, oh, I want to write a book? about the intersection of justice and spirituality. And he kind of laughed, like, who the fuck's going to buy that book kind of thing, right? And then he said... Trust me, not a lot of people buy that book. No, not a lot of people by that book.

But what he said was, well, why can't you do both? And so he kind of had me on the hook at that point, you know? And I said, okay, you know, without... That was very clever of him. Very clever of him. Clever. So I said, okay, give... And by the way, and let me just jump in here.

I'm so sorry to do it. But I've had these conversations with editors and publishers and agents too and the kind of like, hey, what if you did like a dad cookbook? I was like, you know, I want to write about social transformation. Like, I want to talk. Can you eat social transformation? Couldn't you do a comedy book, you know, and tell funny stories? Like, yeah, it's just, I don't know.

They're asking for a product, hoping that you can kind of meet them somewhere. Well, with Boussoon King. I tried to like, okay, I'm going to tell as many jokes as possible, but I'm also going to sneak in kind of a spiritual transformation and recovery story and in between the lines, in between the funny stories. And hopefully I was able to combine both those things. It sounds like you were trying to do as well

as to weave these two things together. I was. You got on the hook to weave these two things together. And that was the goal, you know? And I realized, okay, so I took a little while to kind of just write and see what's coming out, you know? And it was a long process. It was a really long process.

So I don't know if I was able to actually do exactly that. Because what comes out is what comes out, right? And the stories you tell and how you paraphrase the lessons you learned, you know, is what it is. Is it the intersection of justice and spirituality? Maybe. Or maybe that's book too. Your Armenian heritage and history is so integral to who you are. are and it's not just like, oh, I'm Peruvian or I'm Mongolian or whatever.

Like the Armenian story is profound and tragic and complicated as hell. I learned a ton reading about all of these enclaves of Armenians all over the Middle East and how they would kind of keep the little flame of their culture alive outside of Armenia. and then of course we get to the kind of Armenian ethnic cleansing, you know, Holocaust that happened in Turkey. You'll launch us into that. So I think this is fascinating. And can you do a little bit of Armenian history, culture,

and Holocaust in a nutshell for our listeners? Because I'm a pretty well-read, smart guy. first I ever heard about it was like 15 years ago. Right. I was like, wait, what? Yeah. What happened? How many, a million plus died?

Like, you know, in a pogrom? Like, how did I have zero idea of this? Right. Armenians have lived under the Ottoman Empire for 600 years before the genocide of 1915. One and a half million Armenians perished under the Ottoman Turks in a, systematic form of extermination that was planned out by a government that started in 1908 that Armenians helped put in place after the Sultan's...

Is that the Young Turks? That's the Young Turks, yeah. And Armenians were part of that movement because they wanted to see progressive change within the Ottoman Empire because they were citizens and minority, etc. And so when the Sultan lost power and the young Turks took over, Armenians celebrated thinking that this is a more progressive European movement, which they espoused to be. And in seven years, the genocide started. And, you know, what was the, what was the thinking? What was the motivation? There's a lot of books written about motivation of genocide, you know, whether it's the

Holocaust or the genocide or Rwanda. And, you know, usually it's a combination of, um, trying to blame someone else for your own miseries, especially during a war, like a world war. And there's an economic underlying factor, too. You know, there's a middle-class society that's a minority that you can, you know, take all their wealth. You know, it happened with the Jews in Europe, in Poland, in different countries in Europe during the Holocaust, and it happened with the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire in the First World War. So they had lost the First World War because they were on the side of the... They lost the First World War.

After the First World War, U.S. President Woodrow Wilson wanted to create the League of Nations, which is the predecessor to the United Nations. And through the League of Nations, he recommended Armenia, giving Armenians their own country in that area, which is basically would be Eastern Turkey. The Ottoman Empire covered the majority of the Middle East and the Baltics, right? So all this oil wealth, you know, the winning powers, the triumphant powers, which were France, the UK, the U.S., etc., they were more worried about oil concessions from the Ottoman Empire, now Turkey, the Republic of Turkey, as of after the World War,

rather than really punishing the perpetrators of the Armenian genocide. So there were no Nuremberg-type trials during the First World War for the Armenians, and that's what be got more genocide. that's what you know Hitler famously has quoted in 1939 talking to his generals as they're about to invade Poland in saying who now remembers the Armenians

in other words it's okay to act with impunity okay history repeats itself when there's no you know if you don't put a murder in jail you know in a nutshell that's what it is the current Armenia which is east of historical Western Armenia, which what we call Western Armenia, Eastern Turkey, was basically a

nation of refugees, people starving after the genocide. They had independence for only about two years. They fought off Turkish armies coming west, even after them, even after the genocide, even after the Great War, even after the First World War. And they were able to defeat them at that time, miraculously and established a small republic that they held on for two years until the Soviets came and said, it's either us or the Turks, you choose. There was no choice. So Armenia became a Soviet Republic in 1921 out of pure necessity for survival. And then in 1991, when the Soviet Union collapsed, it became an independent country. The tendrils of connection between you and your Armenian heritage and so many incredible stories of your aunts and uncles, of your father-based,

a cobbler on the streets of Beirut. And these lost Armenian tribes dotted throughout the Middle East, which I didn't even know that was a thing. What's your heart connection to that rich cultural, rich and sad cultural heritage? It's interesting because a large diaspora is created by a genocide or a Holocaust, you know, and you tend to be an international. people because of it. You know, we have Armenians in Argentina, a lot of Armenians in Argentina, a lot of Armenians in France, a lot of Armenians in the Middle East. And Glendale. And Glendale.

Exactly. So it's quite interesting, but there's also differences, obviously. There are multiple diasporas. There's no one diaspora because you have a lot of Armenians in Russia, for example, that have lived there for a long time and have immigrated there to work or whatever and now are there and in some ways stuck. You know? So it's very difficult to, you know, negotiate a diaspora in terms of understanding it because it's multifaceted. But what we share is the same belief system, the same, you know, cultural traits, the food and everything. And you're correct in saying that your Armenianness, if you will, is very much of who you are because I've been an activist before becoming an artist. Yeah. And that was because of the hypocrisy of the denial or the taboo nature of recognizing the

Armenian genocide within a well-known democracy like the U.S. You know, growing up and going, why the fuck is in Congress recognizing the genocide? I mean, we all know it's history. International genocide scholars. Well, the answer is pretty simple. NATO. Correct. Yeah. So it's been NATO selling Apache helicopters to Turkey, having NATO be a member of Turkey is the main reason, until Joe Biden and Congress formally recognized the genocide a few years back. But what is in a recognition if the continuing policy of appeasement toward dictators still exists? Good night, everybody. Serge, I've always noticed you've had the trace of like a very elegant accent.

Thanks for calling it elegant. A little bit like a bond villain, a little bit, just a little trace, yep. And then when I read about, and I had no idea, were born in Beirut. Yeah. So you have Armenian as your first language. You have Arabic as your second language. Correct.

French as your third language. Correct. And English, you're not really learning until you move to Hollywood. Pretty much. When you're seven, eight, nine years old. Yeah. How does this Armenian-Lebanese refugee? Right.

Talk me through that and moving to Hollywood in the 70s and then stumbling into activism and then into the band. How does that all work? Obviously coming to the U.S. from Lebanon was a culture shock. You know, and it was at the beginning of the Lebanese Civil War. My parents were able to get us out of there. And my dad was born in Syria, so he couldn't come with us. He had to send us ahead.

And he had to go and bribe his way to get all the paperwork that he needed to be able to get the fuck out of there. So that was six months, I want to say. But my grandparents lived here. My uncle and aunt were already in Los Angeles. So we came in 75 and, man, that was like, you know, the disco era. You know, what an incredible time to be in Hollywood, California. And it was just a old.

It was a roller disco era. It was a roller disco. Did you go to? Did you do any roller disc? Of course I did. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, as a kid. Me too, bro.

As a kid. We have so much in common. even though we're from such different backgrounds. Absolutely. We discovered rock and roll music from Columbia Records and Tapes. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were both members of Columbia Records and Tapes Club.

Oh, yeah. There we go. Yeah, yeah. And we did a little bit of roller disco. A little bit of roller disco. Yeah, it was a great time. It was very emancipating, you know, as a kid coming, you know, to the U.S. at that time. I mean, you know, we were ducking in our houses with bombs falling overhead, you know.

Not in Hollywood. In Hollywood, no. We were ducking from hookers and pimps falling overhead in Hollywood. No. No, it was an interesting time. And, you know, it was like going from monochromatic to color, in a way, life as a kid, you know. And the music, the change in music was really special. My uncle had this vast collection of records, you know, from Stevie Wonder to Michael Jackson to the Jackson 5 to, you know, so many different artists, you know, soul music, you know, was incredible. incredible, like it was my first time experiencing it, for example. It was a big change. It was a big change. We lived in Hollywood right off of Bronson in Hollywood Boulevard when we first came and

some really great stories. But my parents put us in Armenian school as a way of kind of mitigating the transition. Yeah, exactly. And you're right. I barely knew a word of English when we landed here. I was seven years old. My brother was four. and had to learn quickly.

I was ahead and math and behind in English, so they put me in like a, you know, ELA, English as a second language class for maybe a few months, and I started catching up. But it's, you know, but I still never knew the phrases that were not in the dictionary, you know? And people would like, you don't know what that means, you know, like they would laugh at me, you know,

and I'd be like, yeah, I don't. But, you know, it's quite interesting. I forgot a lot of my Arabic. Because when I was young, I was studying at school, naturally there, Armenian and Arabic. But I kept on, you know, practicing my Armenian with my parents, grandparents, et cetera. But Arabic became kind of like the lost language. In 2011, we actually went to Beirut with my parents to visit and see. And I, you know, just being there, my ears started getting filled with Arabic.

And I started coming back little here, a little there. but it's very interesting how language kind of, you know, is in your subconscious there. So how do you get from there? How does the immigrant kid become the lead singer of a number one rock band? You know, I graduated from an Armenian private school in Hollywood and then went to CISUN, got a bachelor's degree in marketing, not knowing what I wanted to do, figured business would be something useful because my dad was in business. And but at the time when I was 19 going to C-San, I got a small Casio keyboard and started

playing it. And it became a meditation. It became a way of forgetting everything else. All my worries. And there was a lot going on with the family at the time. We had this big lawsuit going on with my parents' business. And I just, I needed a way of escaping, a healthy way of escaping. And that became it. And I didn't take it seriously as a career choice until way later. I was probably 24 until I had this massive epiphany and realized that this is my calling. Take us to the out epiphany. How does that, what happened? I was working in the jewelry district in downtown L.A.

with my uncle at his company after graduating university. I used to, you know, kind of work with him over the summers. I knew his business and, you know, we do trade shows and I was helping him with the business. I was doing really well, you know, and he was relying on me more and more. But deep down inside, I knew that's not what I wanted to do. So I'm like, okay, well, if not, this, then what, right? I was good at law because my parents were getting sued and they didn't know any English and I was reading all the, you know, transcripts and translating and doing all this

work. And I'm like, I guess maybe I could be a lawyer. So I'm like, okay, let me go check out one of these LSAT schools, how, you know, they teach you how to take the LSAT. It was in Long Beach. After a long work day in downtown LA, I drove to Long Beach and walked into a massive room with all these students excited about being lawyers. And I fucking hated lawyers. because of all the trauma my family was going to with the legal system. And so it was like this weird, you know, thing happening inside of me, this fight going, well, why the fuck are you here if you hate, you know, this type of career and stuff? And it was on my way back.

I remember I had a Jeep Wrangler. I was driving in the car. It was raining. It was so dramatic. I was driving on Laurel Canyon Boulevard heading towards Studio City. And I had this fucking epiphany where I was like, I don't have. I want to be a fucking lawyer. I want to be a musician.

I want to do music. And I literally stopped the car, like, no joke, hit the fucking steering and started yelling, I want to do music to myself. And that day changed my life. Where did that come from? You're just driving in Laurel Canyon one day? From the depths of my subconscious,

I always say that I had to go to the far end of who I don't want to be to realize to myself who I am. You're not a marketer. You're not a jeweler. I'm not a lawyer. No. I'm an artist. But I love that idea of,

pounding on the steering wheel. You know what it was? It was many years of responsibility. Like I wanted, you know, I needed to be a responsible person. I was the older child. I was, you know, my family was going through rough times. I didn't want to take, you know, their suffering lightly. And I needed to be responsible for their sake and mine.

You know, so music was. And that's such a common thing with immigrant children, especially the eldest kids of, I have so many friends. Korean. Baha'i community. Baha'i, yeah. They're expected the doctor, the lawyer,

the, you know, to provide for the family. There's an incredible pressure on the shoulders. Oppressed people, they have actually a larger propensity of asking their kids to become professionals to secure their livelihood. It happens with Jews. It happens with Armenians, you know. So, you know, but luckily my...

One of the most successful, I'm sorry to do this, please. One of the most successful group. are the Haitians and as poor and destitute as they are in Haiti and how little opportunity there is there because my wife and I have been working there for quite some time. Like Haitian immigrants do so well. I mean, they run businesses and doctors, lawyers just absolutely. They prize education and it's a great source of pride actually to see how well that. And it just shows you, you know, the resilience of the human spirit.

Like you can come from that. You can come from total destitution. And then when given the opportunity, absolutely thrive. But they haven't been able to do that in Haiti where it's really corrupt, for example, right? But they're able to go out and just be incredibly successful. Armenians have been able to do that worldwide as well. And those that haven't been able to do it in Armenia, post-Soviet corrupt times, which is now changing due to the revolution in 2008.

Top five most famous Armenians go. Search tank. Charles Osnavur, Kim Kardashian, Andre Agassi. Is Alex O'Hanian? Alex O'Hanian's up there. Okay. Up there, yeah, yeah, yeah. Alex is a friend of mine, yeah. So, yeah. But yeah, he's a good guy. We're actually on a board together of this thing called High Connect,

which is kind of a new network that we've created for Armenians to connect around the world because we have such a large diaspora, so we're launching that this year as well. Here you go. You felt this pressure to succeed. Yeah. But there you are pounding on the steering wheel. Yeah, I mean,

how could you take music seriously as a career because it's so volatile? It's so, you know, and here I am with the degree. Did you know that you had the pipes of a god at that point in time?

I had not sang much. I just had the desire and the kind of almost... But you had to know in the shower that you were able to like fucking... You know, I didn't actually sing. You never sang. No, I just played keyboards.

Because your voice is like unreal. Thank you. I think it's like any other muscle you can train it to do anything. I don't think that's true. I think you're like, I think you're the Armenian Robert Plant. Oh, wow. Thank you. Thank you. So no, I didn't sing at the time. I didn't know. All I knew is what I wanted, you know, the passion for it. Like passion had to be the driver, you know. And I knew I wasn't going to be happy doing anything else, you know. And that's a big change. Like to do the arts, you have to really, and to be a lifer in the arts, you have to be a lifer in the arts. You have to. to know that you're not going to be happy doing anything else no matter what. 100%. That's the only way you can go in full. I always say to young artists, like, if you can do anything else and you think you can be

happy doing anything else, go do that thing. Because why would you suffer decades of rejection? Correct. And embarrassment and humiliation and poverty unless you had to do it. Yeah. Because I felt that way about acting and theater. And there was a good decade plus of living. below the poverty line, literally the poverty line. So, amen. Yeah, it's a hard, it's a hard quest.

So what do you do now? You've got a Casio keyboard. I got a casual keyboard now. Now I have a dream. Okay, so I tell my uncle, listen, I can't do this anymore. I got to do music and he's like, what the fuck, you know? Like, you know. So he tries to kind of, you know, sway me into staying or doing a different version of what we're doing together. Very kind, very sweet. He's like really, really impressed me my whole life with his camaraderie and support. And he finally understands. I said, listen, you've made something of yourself doing this. My dad's done his thing.

I need to do my own thing, whatever that is. And he understood. So that took me to working at different places. Like I worked at Guitar Center for two weeks because I loved instruments. Then I realized, you know, I can't do anything there. Then I started doing some accounting, hand accounting for a video company in Glendell. And then I realized that I had created a vertical accounting system for my uncle's jewelry business. And I thought to myself, shit, maybe I could sell this and be my own boss so I could have extra time to do music.

So I created a software company that started doing really well between, I want to say, early 90s until like 95 when I sold it for very little just to be able to focus even more on music. And so that took me through different bands. my first band I was a keyboardist in. I wasn't singing. It was like an Armenian-American alternative rock band. And cool guys, most of them weren't serious about being in music, but having a good time. But it was a great entree into that world. And then second band was a band I started with my friend Darren from System of Adel, my guitarist in the band. And it was called Soil. And so Soil lasted only eight months because our drummer, had to leave town and, you know, for work and whatnot. And it's always the drummer.

Isn't that just spinal tap was right? It's always the fucking brother. It's always the fucking brother. Okay. And then we started System of a Down after that. So System of a Down technically was my third band. When did you start singing? I started singing in soil.

So eight months before we started System of a Down, I started singing. But it was a lot of screaming more than singing. Soil was progressive metal, more of a progressive metal. version of what system of a down is. And way louder and way more, way harder. So basically I was getting all my grievances out through screaming and singing. And that was the first time I sang. And then with system, yeah, just continued, I guess.

But at one point, there's a funny story in soil that I found out years later that at one point they decided to swap me because they weren't very happy. be with my singing. With your screaming. Right, or whatever it was, you know. And, but they never found anyone to deal with the kind of music they were doing. So they kept me and they didn't tell me until later, you know, which is very funny for a story.

They had had secret auditions for other screamer singers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's very interesting. But one thing that's really interesting for me is coming into a heavy metal music scene, not being a heavy metal person is very interesting. Because that wasn't my background. I mean, my brother listened to Slayer and a bunch of heavy music and I was introduced to it through him and my later to be guitarist, Darren.

But my original background of music had nothing to do with very heavy music. Although the first concert I ever went to was Iron Maiden with my girlfriend and I was like 17 or 18. But I didn't even know who the band was at that time. Like, I was totally clueless. But I think that's what's interesting. I think you bring artists from different spheres together that aren't necessarily from.

the same sphere and you can get something more colorful, something more variety. What was your background more? Just alternative, punk? I mean, it depends on the era, right? You know, more than punk, like even punk was hard for me. I was into pop. I was into European music, Arabic music, Armenian music, world music, as you would call it. So I had jazz, like, you know, all these other influences that I'd listened to rock, but I wasn't the heaviest listener of rock. you know, at that time. But more and more, I started becoming fans of different genres of music. So at one point, which I think is really, really essential for artists that are in their development phase, which is our whole life, basically. I think you had, I did this, you know, binging and purging

on music. So for three months, I'd listen to hip-hop only. Three months I'd listen to the best of, right? Three months I'd listen to death metal only. Three months I'd listen to the best pop only. Like it became like this thing where you got into each of the worlds like heavily and then departed and then got into another world. And I find that great because that, you know, you dip into all these different color waters and then you can combine them inside you. You know, and something else comes out, you know. How is music a spiritual meditation for you? When you're creating, whether it's music or art or any version of creativity or writing, you have to be present. it forces you to be present.

And that presence, that awareness is a walking meditation, simply. Have you ever had a transcendent experience while performing or writing music? Oh, sure. I mean, especially performing. There's been many times, there have been many times on stage where you kind of get lost in the moment and you don't know where you are, you don't know who you are. you're just living the music, you're within the music. And that is the most beautiful and honest form of the arts expression that is a part of you

and you are a part of it. There are times where you're not. There are times where you're thinking through it. But performing nonetheless, because that's what you do. You become a professional and do it well, hopefully. Yeah. You know, but there are times where you're completely lost. And in those lost moments, that clarity, that,

honesty is unique, you know. When you speak in those moments, which I used to do between songs when we used to tour, the truth that would come out would be transcendent because it wasn't me saying it. I've never heard that before. It wasn't me saying it. It would come from somewhere. And the ancient Greeks, of course, believed in the muses as actual gods. So inspiration for creativity coming from the god realm, coming from Mount Olympus.

and Dionysus and Bacchus, you know, gods of partying and wine, but also of art and that there was something dangerous about art and performing and the drama that you're overcome with this. Of course is dangerous because you can, the truth is inescapable if you're a true artist, and the truth is dangerous sometimes, right? So especially in certain worlds, you know, you're if you perform in a dictatorial regime and you're just screaming at the dictator that's dangerous

but that could also happen in America more and more as time goes on yeah and it has it has happened so yeah so that is my favorite moment it's not so much when I write music or create music that's as transcendental but but I think it's more in the performance of it where you lose yourself to a point where you almost get scared that you've lost too much. Do I know what the next, do I know when the music's coming back? Like, what is going on, you know? But the freeformness between songs, my guitarist would just play some weird, like, riff that would just be kind of psychedelic or something.

And then I just, these words would come out of my mouth without me thinking it, and they would just go, and they would go someplace. And then there would be like this build, build of anger. or building a frustration, almost like screaming at the gods, you know, to break through. Break through to what? I'm not sure. How does that work with your activism? Have you said things and screamed things to, how's that gone over? You know, most...

How would you sum up your activism? What are you about? What are you seeking? Justice, mostly. you know, I think the world... And how does that work? There's a certain balance in the world, right? If you upend that in any way, right?

Whether it's ecological, whether it's human rights-based, whether whatever it is, it fucks with things. It disturbs things. It makes this place a worse place to be, you know? And to me, the lesson I've learned from the Armenian genocide is that there's got to be this equitable balance. And that's justice in the real world, in the political world, it's justice. the spiritual world, it's whatever you want to call it. It's enlightenment, awareness, you know, presence. Anytime that you have justice, good things happen, anytime you have injustice, bad things happen. So if I was to narrow it all down to one thing, that's what it would be. Where is that

work taking you these days? Where's your thinking going? I'm very involved with Armenia's political landscape, especially after... In the country of Armenia. In the country of Armenia. Because in 2020, during COVID, Azerbaijan attacked Armenians in an enclave known as Nagorno-Arapah, which is one of our oldest Armenian kingdoms from thousands of years. And in 2023, just last year, there was ethnic cleansing, and those people were forced to leave their homeland, their historical homeland, as refugees into Armenia. And that happened two weeks before Hamas, you know, October 6 or 6th or so.

seventh did their terrorism and all the stuff that's happened since. So because the world knows about what's happening with Israel and Palestine, but they don't know what's happened in Armenia, I've been very vocal in trying to raise awareness having to do with that and that injustice. In a nutshell, in the 1920s, Stalin decided to give indigenous Armenian homelands to Azerbaijan as a way of splitting. The Soviet Union used to do this. They give territories to different republics to kind of create dependence on Russia and the main interlookers, as main interlookers, right? And Stalin did that. He gave Nakhichevan and Nogorna Rapa to Azerbaijan. And when before the dissolution of the Soviet Union, there was a huge war, the first Nagorno-Rapar war,

and Armenians took over the lands that they were historically living in. from Azerbaijan because Azerbaijan technically control it based on Stalin's random decision to give these lands. And then in 2020, they came back and fought a war. And, you know, for nine months, they starve these people. You know, they set up checkpoints and they didn't allow even at one point, even Red Cross trucks wouldn't be able to cross. And they starved them for nine months to try to get them to leave.

You know, using starvation as a tool of expulsion. which is basically genocide. And then when that didn't work, they attacked them in September of 2023. And so 120,000 refugees were expelled, you know, from their historical homelands. 120,000. Yeah, wow. It's very similar. When you say the word enclave, I pictured like 5,000.

That's a lot of people. Yeah, especially for a country that's just two and a half, three million people. Yeah. So, you know, Azerbaijan since has actually. actually invaded Armenia proper Armenia proper the territory of Armenia based on you at UN records maps and all of that and they're basically holding Armenia and the leadership hostage to their you know wishes and wants um along with Russia you know Russia is basically thrown Armenia under the bus since you know they used to be the security guarantor of Armenia post-Soviet Union because that

that was their backyard and that they controlled the whole area not just Armenia obviously, but Georgia and all of that, until Georgia reacted and responded years ago to them and they had the Georgian, Russian war, et cetera. So in a nutshell, Armenia has since pivoted to the West, but is in a very dangerous situation with Russia and Azerbaijan and Turkey, wanting access to the south of Armenia. They want part of southern Armenia for themselves so that they can set up their own pipelines and evade sanctions for Russia and have direct access to Europe. Iran, you know, all sorts of geopolitical shit.

So anyway, I'm trying to get the word out for people to understand this. But I'm also an activist on many other fronts, whether it's climate change or, you know, human rights, animal rights of other countries. Because once you see suffering, once you've felt bombs dropped, you know, where you live, you can't imagine doing that to someone else. Irrespective, you know, what's happening in Israel, Palestine. Heartbreaking, horrible, you know. You know, it's really difficult.

It's really difficult. And being an artist and being an activist is a very thorny, double-edged sword. How so? You will lose a lot of followers if you're always honest. And you have. And I have. And I'm fine with that. I didn't get into this to win popularity contest.

I got into this to create, to be an artist, you know, that it's not, you know. And you've got to be ready to do that. And some hate. You've got to be careful as well. So is a big system of a down kind of shut up and sing kind of contingent? There is. There is, actually. Yeah.

But a lot of it is also coming from outside that are not necessarily fans. And they're like, oh, I used to like your music. I'm like, okay, name five songs. You know, that kind of thing, right? Which is fine. The idea that for me, it's ludicrous. to think that an artist would not be active, be it politically or socially.

Yeah. Because, I mean, it's almost part of our job. Dude. The lack of activism from Hollywood is appalling. And I know firsthand of big celebrities that are passionate about something as simple as climate change. but don't want to ruffle feathers or hurt or impact their popularity

by speaking up about climate science because 31% of America doesn't buy climate science they don't want to potentially alienate them and they're protecting their career and their self-interest. The whole like Ricky Jervais' joke on the golden globes of like

just take your award and shut up and don't say anything and sit down. No one cares what you think It's like, well, then no one cares what a bus driver thinks, and no one cares what a schoolteacher thinks, and no one cares what a, you know, a construction worker thinks, because everyone is entitled to their opinion. Correct.

And everyone has a certain megaphone. And people, no matter what your background, you shouldn't just shut up because you're an artist. Right. You're being punished for your volume because the megaphone is loud. Yeah. You know. So only experts. Yeah. Only experts.

Only political science majors are able to speak about politics. Right. Only even like social workers are supposed to shut up about social justice issues. Like it's really, it's really messed up. It is. And where the arts come from, like if you look at whether it's Greek times and it is very much challenging to the political elite. It's always been. You know, it's always been part of our.

our function. Look at the counterculture revolution in the Vietnam War and what an amazing impact the arts had. Yes, the 60s. You know, Kent State. I mean, the list goes on and on. Absolutely. It changed America. It changed the world. Yeah. Yeah. And Harry Belafonte in the civil rights movement. I mean, it just keeps going. So where do we go now? I would say my question to you is, okay, that's a very specific war and conflict you're talking about, and you're trumpeting it because people don't know about it. So that's super important. But as a species, and this is the spiritual revolution aspect.

Yeah. The whole soul boom thing imaging. Yeah. Is where are we going? How do we get there? How do we transform? And we're not talking about like passing certain pieces of legislation. I mean, Joe Biden, you said, you know, acknowledged the Armenian genocide.

Has that changed anything? No, stuff has gotten worse. Yeah. It's gotten worse. Correct. So it's not about legislation. It's not about like little band-aids. How do we affect a wholesale transformation and how us sad, pathetic,

aggressive, crazy, mixed-up human beings on this planet start to integrate and connect on a on a on a deeper level and you know god forbid achieves something approximating world peace and far-reaching justice yeah is that is that a stupid eye-rolling pipe dream it's not you know it's it's existential at this point both in terms of climate change and the wars that are happening as we speak right now right now are all existential issues yeah you know because you know the existential as in exist or not exist. As a planet, yeah, because these wars will likely spin out of control going from regional to

international. I mean, the Russia-Ukraine war is huge in terms of that sense. And the, you know, what's happening with Israel and Palestine is huge in that sense in terms of it spinning, you know, in Ghana, Iran and all of words, yeah. All of it, you know. So I think that you know, people don't realize that based on our, whether it's our carbon footprint or our attitude in terms of resource acquisition and using wars to get what we want as a country, people don't realize that they're ending their children's future doing so, you know. Native Americans had a great phrase for it. They called it, feeding your children by killing your grandchildren or something like that. In other words, not being far-sighted.

Yeah. You know? And that's what's happening. People don't realize that, you know, the overpopulation that we have on the planet with our accelerated rate of destruction of natural resources are unsustainable. Unsustainable. There is no magic cure. And it's common sense.

As much as we want to say technology might save it, technology's at an accelerated rate, there might be all these findings. Sure, I'll buy into some of that. But what is not changing is our attitude that, you know, that we are one and this is our struggle together, you know, both in terms of politics, wars and in terms of climate change. And what we do here affects everyone there, what they do there, affects everyone here. People still don't see that, you know. I always, I always, this small, simple thing in my mind was always that, you know how in the Bible they say,

at the end of times, there will be a distinction between the believers and non-believers or however you want to phrase that. I always saw that as there will be a distinction between those that believe everything is one and those that don't. Those are the believers and non-believers. How do you see everything as being one? How?

How? I try not to honk at the guy in front of me because I've done that same stupid fucking mistake he just did. I open a door for someone who's got... That's the essence of compassion, isn't it? I open a door for someone who's got packages in their hands because right after, guess what happened to me? The lady that wasn't supposed to have tape from my box that I was shipping happened to have tape.

It's just, it's fucking karma, man. Probably the oldest spiritual teaching in humanity's tool belt is the golden rule. And isn't that what you're talking about? Because it's true. I have honked and I have been honked out. Yeah, totally. And I do think that all of social transformation comes down to how we drive on Los Angeles freeways. are you the asshole that cuts ahead of the of the lane and then cuts in at the last minute

when it's backed up going from the 101 to the 405? Totally. Or do you wait in that line? Very interesting. Very interesting. Sorry to cut you off, but a very interesting thing in New Zealand. You know, you kind of observe drivers elsewhere that, you know, lived in L.A., grew up in L.A.,

and I know how it goes. Very competitive, very brutal. And you go to New Zealand, and there's areas that are two lanes that merge. margin one. Now, normally, whoever wants to go faster takes the right lane because it's right side drive there and et cetera and goes ahead. Now, if there's a whole line and there's traffic, if anyone veers to the right and doesn't stay like way back in line, someone will cut them off on purpose and just be like, fuck you, dude, you know, tall poppy syndrome. So there's a social pressure to kind of keep tall poppy syndrome. Completely different. Whereas US is very much, you know, self,

the self, the me, kind of, you know. It's very, very interesting seeing some of that. You know, I also see really interesting cultural differences playing music. Like I've worked with different orchestras around the world. I've written a symphony years ago called Orca, and I'll do these different orchestral shows. How people play, how different cultures play is really interesting. How so? You go to Italy and because it's very, you know, there's incredible artists, but they can't play together well.

Right? You get the best soloists, but when it comes to playing together, not as great. You go to Russia, they play great together, for example. Germany, they play great together. You know, you go to Armenia. Again, you get great soloists when it's, you know, it's like national sports or whatever you want to call it, you know, versus, you know, solo sports. You know, it just, I find all of that really interesting. I find the diversity of our culture, our foods, our colors to be such an incredible thing. How could we be fighting over that?

Hmm. Any ideas? Where do we go? What do we do? Do you have any solutions? Well, I think one that you're getting at is to make your voice heard, you know? Everyone's voice counts. You don't have to be a rock star or a catalog model to... I don't know, Rain. I'm not very hopeful. Wow. Okay. I'm not. I don't see people, you know, I don't see us as a community of nations. making the type of change that we need to take things seriously. We might need an alien intervention or something, you know.

Well, you know, you obviously haven't finished Soul Boom because at the end I talk about how we need to keep hope alive. Yeah. But that being said, you know, humanity is probably headed to some kind of hitting bottom and going to rehab. Yeah, basically. I liken humanity to being like 17 years old and on a cocaine bender and lost in Tijuana without their pants and hitting bottom and getting mugged and having to get

some real help and coming crawling back on its knees. But will there be a back? Will there be a place to come back to is the real question? Yeah, the stakes are very high. The stakes are very high, you know? There's always been wars. People say there's always been wars. There's always been climate change.

All of that is true. But it's the science. If you look at the science and the accelerated rate of, you know, destruction of the planet coupled with the accelerated rate of birth and overpopulation, that, you know, you can't negotiate that science. And doesn't it feel too, like almost like in the 80s, like nuclear weapons were like, oh, we'll never go there. It was so there was the Cold War and like it was.

And now it's kind of like, There's more talk of it. Yeah. It seems to be like, well, maybe we'll try a nuke. You know, China might try one or Russia or us even. Who knows? Or Israel. What was unthinkable is now on the table, which is incredibly scary.

Well, I will say that I think it's incredibly important that we try and keep hope alive. For the younger generation that we show them the way to transform themselves and to transform their communities, especially at the grassroots, they may not be able to affect an entire. population like Armenia, but they might be able to affect their cul-de-sac or their school or their church basement or their 12-step room. And we all have to do our part. The stakes are very high. And if there is that increased commitment to social change and justice and ignore the haters,

then positive things might happen. It might require a repositioning of humanity in a way that is more natural in terms of, you know, because our tribal existence where a lot of people knew each other, if you go to a small hometown here in the U.S., people are really nice. Everyone knows each other. There's crime and this and that, but it's not the same. It's the obfuscation of our existence that is our detriment, right? we need to reconnect in that way.

And maybe it takes restructuring, maybe something. We've got to figure this shit out, you know, for our kids' sake, if not our own, you know. Serge, thanks so much. The book is called, again. Down with the system. Down with the system. The coffee is called. May 14.

The coffee is called Cavat Coffee, K-A-V-A-T coffee. K-A-T coffee. Excellent. You sent me a gift box of the kovat coffee. I think I posted about it. You did. I'm glad you enjoyed it. And then I didn't get any more free coffee.

It's coming. I'll send you more. What are we going to do about that? I saw you have a really nice revel machine here, so you need it. More is coming. Okay, sweet. This has been such an inspiring conversation, and best of luck on all of your creativity. Likewise. Thank you.

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