Soul Boom - The Daily Stoic's Guide to Spirituality (w/ Ryan Holiday)

Episode Date: September 4, 2025

Ryan Holiday (The Daily Stoic) joins Rainn Wilson to connect Stoicism’s deepest roots to spirituality, from the Logos and justice to the common good and service. They explore how ancient practice becomes modern medicine for anxiety, purpose, and resilience, and why journaling and radical acceptance still work. THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS! Fetzer 👉 https://www.fetzer.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⏯️ SUBSCRIBE!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠👕 MERCH OUT NOW! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠📩 SUBSTACK!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  FOLLOW US! 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram: http://instagram.com/soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 👉 TikTok: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://tiktok.com/@soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  CONTACT US! Sponsor Soul Boom: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠ Work with Soul Boom: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Send Fan Creations, Questions, Comments: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Executive Produced by: Kartik Chainani Executive Produced by: Ford Bowers, Samah Tokmachi Companion Arts Production Supervisor: Mike O'Brien Theme Music by: Marcos Moscat Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What do you do if you're a young person and you look around and you don't really see any institutions or any institutional leaders who are exemplars of what they purport to be about? I think you end up going, well, let's throw out all this and let's go back a little bit further until we find something and there's kind of a freshness in something old. Philosophy should not be making you a better sociopath. Hey there, it's me, Rain Wilson, and I want to dig into the human experience. I want to have conversations about a spiritual revolution. Let's get deep with our favorite thinkers, friends, and entertainers about life, meaning, and idiocy. Welcome to the Soul Boom. Ryan, thanks for coming on Soul Boom. A lot of people might think, what the hell is a stoic doing on a spirituality podcast? Why would they think that? Why would those be in conflict with each other? Well, I agree. Completely. Okay. But to a lot of people, stoicism has nothing to do with spirituality and is kind of a series of

self-help tools from the classical ages. Yes. And they don't see a correlation between stoic philosophy of like, you know, discipline and stillness and conflict and, et cetera. Sure. With kind of a spiritual path. We know that's not true. Yes.

And I would love to talk to you about that. That's, I'm just going to dive right in there. Like, I came to Stoicism because I was looking for guidance, because I'd seen the movie Gladiator, you know, because somebody passed me a copy of meditations, and I was like, oh, this will make me more productive. This will make me a better master of myself. I was interested in what Stoicism could do for me.

Sure. And it was your entry point. Yes. And the individualistic Stoicism. But the thing about any good spiritual tradition or any philosophical tradition is that as you work it, it's doing work on you. And it was only with time that I noticed, hey, that, you know, the four virtues of Stoicism are courage. I like that. Discipline, I like that. Wisdom, I like that. Oh, what's that, that fourth one, justice? What's that about? That took me some time. And even in my own

writings, you'll notice, like my first books, The Obstacles Way, Egos, The Enemy, Stillness is the key. they are primarily rooted in the sort of that, that first version of stoicism. And it's only later in my own journey that I think it expanded and it grew. What do the stoics mean by justice? And how do you interact with this idea of justice? What does that mean?

Is it? Because nowadays, justice means social justice, social justice warriors. It's a curse. Yeah. You know, it's a hypocritical young person, rabble rouser without any practical ideas whatsoever. I do love, says something about where we are as a society

that you can insult someone by calling them a social justice warrior. That seems like an indictment of... Like Martin Luther King. Yeah. Was a social justice warrior. Yeah, what a clown, you know? Yeah. Gandhi. Yes.

If not for social justice, what ought you be a warrior for? Right? But no, I think it's two sides. It's exactly that quote that I told you earlier. Good character and works for the common good. So justice is, first off, the standards you hold yourself to. Hey, I keep my word. You know, I'm punctual.

I do what I say. I do my best. I live an act with integrity. And then there is this part where our actions leave our nose and start to affect and impact the rest of the world. And how are we leaving this place back? better than we found it. How are we being of service?

How are we making a positive difference in people's lives? To me, that's what this virtue of justice is. And then again, I just, something I skipped over. I was just much less interested in the ethical part of Stoic philosophy until I'd been in it for a while. And so if what calls you to Catholicism is you're just looking to be part of something, look, if what, and I still feel this,

like when you travel and you step in an old church, It does its work on you. You're like, there's something about this space, and that's because real genius artists and artisans designed it to have that impact. But you go, hey, this is a tradition that predates me and will outlive me. I want to be a part of that. If that's what gets you in, great. I just, I think I have a problem when any religion or a spiritual philosophy is used

or weaponized to be the antithesis. of what the primary teachings of that thing is. So again, if you're using Sto's, if you're Andrew Tate and you're quoting Marcus Aurelius to make, you know, young boys into monsters, like I'm not on board with that. If you're, you know, you have an AI picture of Marcus Rilis looking super jacked,

and then that draws someone in, and then you're teaching them this community-mindedness of Stoicism, then, you know, I don't have a problem with that. So it's just been fascinating to me. This is the first time I'm like, oh, hey, this is the thing I grew up with and now it has this residence that I didn't expect.

And I think it's interesting. I thought it was interesting when JD Vance tried to explain, essentially the opposite of the Bible. The Bible that you have this order of people that you care about and that empathy is somehow a weakness. Yeah. You could argue that the whole religious tradition

is a technology designed to inculcate people with empathy because their tendencies to not have it. And I dislike when someone is using their considerable rhetorical and intellectual powers. Well, what's fascinating about Catholicism is the last couple of popes have been very quote unquote progressive, at least in terms of like serving the poor or working with the poor,

you know, easing up of, rules to be more allowing less judgmental. Totally. More accepting, even if, like, laws aren't specifically changing per se. Yeah. But that doesn't seem to have much effect on the, on the worshippers in the way that it used to. Yeah.

I think the worshippers used to be kind of more in the flow with where the Pope was leading the, was leading the church. And if the Pope was kind of pro-Nazi, the congregation would be a little pro-notty. if it was a little bit more, you know, rigorous and, you know, by the book, then the congregation would be as well. But I think this is actually partly why there is a resurgence in some of these philosophical traditions is that it's hard to, I think the reason that people don't follow the moral leadership of the Catholic Church is because the moral leadership of the Catholic Church,

a couple of recent progressive popes nonwithstanding has been heinous. to say the least, right? They completely neglected any moral leadership on, you know, in one of the most egregious abuses of people in human history, right? Like, so as these institutions have failed repeatedly to live up to their ethos and their ideals, and I think you have to include, you know, government and presidents in this, too, What do you do if you're a young person and you look around and you don't really see any institutions or any institutional leaders who are exemplars of what they purport to be about? I think you end up going, well, let's throw out all this and let's go back a little bit further until we find something and there's kind of a freshness in something old.

I just think there's not a lot of, there's not a lot of places that if you're, I think this is why it's particularly acute for young men and why maybe, unfortunately, they are looking too much to comedians on podcasts. Do you know what I mean? Hey. Is, uh, is, is, is like, I'm the least influential comedian on a podcast. I'll put it that way. All of us are the least influential podcast in comparison to a few, right? Yeah. But, but like, um, who is speaking to them about these things? Like school doesn't seem to think that that's its job.

Most of them are not religious. The sort of civic institutions are, you know, weak at best. And so there is this kind of vacuum that I do think some sort of grifters and grifters are intentionally filling and then other people are unintentionally filling it. But there does seem to be a vacuum that needs to be filled. Victor Frangler will call it an existential vacuum. And I think that's what most people wake up and experience. Yeah, I've said that there's probably not a more unattractive phrase in the English language to most people than stoic philosophy. Philosophy, they're like, no thanks, no bearing on my life whatsoever.

And then stoic, they're like, that's the opposite of what I'm trying to be or what is healthy to be. So when you're like stoic philosophy, how did it become that kind of a reverberation, stoicism being like emotionless and, like throwing up walls. When that's not at all what Marcus Aurelius is talking about. It is really interesting that both, like the two rival schools from roughly the same time in ancient Greece, the Stoics and the Epicureans, both words lowercase in the English language, could not be further from what the philosopher and the philosophy was actually about. Like Epicurean to us means a heedness.

Yeah. Or just food generally. And then stoic means repressed and robotic and resigned and just generally a kind of suppressed misery. And that's not who the philosophers were at all who lived these fascinating active public lives. And then that's not what the philosophy was about. Like Epicurus is talking about pleasure, sure,

but he's saying that any pleasure that has shame or a hangover or embarrassment after, or is taken to excess becomes a form of pain and thus isn't pleasurable. And then the Stoics, you know, they talk about joy, they talk about happiness, they talk about love. They're just trying to do that in a world that they accept is largely outside of our control. And so those words in the language just means something very different than what the philosophy is supposed to be about. And then, yeah, it's kind of this tragedy. But at the same time, Like when people think philosophy, they don't think love of wisdom.

They think like a love of riddles or they think a university professor. They think like there's almost something where like spirituality is about finding meaning in your life. And philosophy is like this clever academic telling you why your life actually has no meaning. Well, let me push back a little bit because to a lot of people, the word spirituality has a lot of negative connotations as well. And it can be crystals and incense and woo woo and, you know, yoga postures. And it can feel.

vague and kind of touchy-feely in a really cliche kind of way. Or it's synonymous with religion and it's synonymous with church and with a very specific set of moralities and strictures of how to live one's life. Yes. And to certain religious people, the word spirituality is an anathema to their religion. And to certain spiritual people, the word religion is an anathema to their spiritual journey, which can be very vague, right? Stoicism is not vague.

Yes. But in a way, isn't that kind of what we're trying to do is like rescue either philosophy or stoic philosophy from the dustbin of history or from academia where it's just a bunch of like jargon in a classroom and rescuing spirituality from, you know, kind of woo-woo yoga centers and bringing it more into your house and into your daily life? and are there tools there that can help make your life better? I think that's right. I mean, look, obviously the people who translate things from ancient Greek or Latin into English

or whatever language you speak, that's an essential act of translation. I've come to see that the language barrier is not the primary barrier at this point to people accessing these ideas. There needs to be a translation from these sort of ancient people whose names are weird, whose sort of world is a foreign country to us and a translation into modern life, into how do I actually use this? And philosophy used to be this thing that was supposed to be a guide to living or a guide to life. Right. That's not most people's perception. So there's just a whole barrier there between what it is and what people think it is. And there needs to be a sort of an

entry point to it. Like I think the Daily Stoic, the book, which was actually my agent's idea, he said, you know, this will be your bestselling book. And I said, sure, well. It didn't make any sense to me because I liked just going and reading the Stoics. That's I, I love books like that. And he was like, that's not most people. And he said, you know, actually in 2,500 years, all the Stoics have never been in one place. There's no collected volume of the Stoics. and there's certainly not one where it's designed to be read. Is that true really? There's not a best of the Stoics?

No, there hasn't been. And it's, what's weird about it too is that stoicism really, like, I've come to understand that Stoicism is not a philosophy you've read. It is a philosophy you are reading. Like, it's supposed to be a thing you're engaged with. And in fact, almost all this spiritual. Or a philosophy that you're attempting to live, perhaps. Well, I heard someone say, you know, you don't say, have you watched the office?

You say, are you watching the office? Right? Because as you go back and forth to them. See what he did there? See what he did there, people? First time ever and last time? The office compared to Stoicism. But, you know, each time you watch an episode or you pick up a book, you pick up something

that you didn't notice was there. Because great art and great insights are layered on top of each other. The idea of Stoicism is like, oh, I've read Marcus Realis. Or, oh, yeah, I read Seneca's letters. Well, when I read Seneca's letters at 19, what I was picking up, I was only capable of picking up a slim fraction of what's in there. But as I've come back to it over and over again, I've picked up different things. And so what the Daily Stoak ended up doing was the technology of it, weirdly, even though

it's such an ancient form, a physical book, it's like you crack and you just read one little chunk each day and then you think about it. And that's really how the philosophy and philosophy, is supposed to be read. It's not like, oh, I studied philosophy in college, and I'm done, right? It's supposed to be a thing you are studying. It's a thing you are engaged with. And the Stokes talk about how you have to be reading it, you have to be talking about it,

and you have to be writing about it. And this is kind of this complete loop of consuming it in all these different ways. That's how it kind of seeps into your bones and it changes you as a person. Well, let's go back to this idea of the spiritual, underpinnings and roots of so many of the stoic writings. Because they're not mentioned a whole lot on your brand, your socials, your writings. But I had my producers come up with a bunch of the quotes around the intersection of spirituality and stoicism.

And it's just, it's astonishing, you know. You want to my favorite one? Yeah, tell me. Seneca's brothers in the Bible. Wait, what? Seneca's brother. I always pronounce it wrong. It's Galeo.

His brother is a judge in the Roman Empire, and St. Paul is arrested. Paul of Tarsus, who actually studies philosophy in Tarsus where the Stoic school is. He gets arrested, and he goes up in front of this judge, and this judge happens to be Seneca's brother. That's Seneca's brother. And Seneca's brother basically goes, this is not a legal matter. This is a spiritual dispute. and he lets them go. Nice.

Good decision, too. However, the other intersection is a little darker. So Marcus Aurelius, who's, Marcus Aurelius that we think in his mid-20s, he's already into philosophy, but he's given Epictetus's lectures from his philosophy teacher, Junius Rousticus. And Junius teaches him for many years. Marcus Aurelius is sort of being groomed for power, eventually becomes emperor. And we're told that when Marx-Ruos becomes emperor, he believing in this idea of the philosopher king thinks that he says we're told he is not content to let his teacher remain a mere pen and ink philosopher, which is such a great expression. Nice.

And so he makes Rousticus basically like the mayor of Rome. He makes his philosophy teacher the mayor of Rome. Yes. Good gig. Good gig, except for, you know, you crash into the. vexing reality of being a civil administrator. And some people complain they bring this guy named Justin up on charges of impiety, basically not worshipping the Roman gods, which was a crime, although the sort of Roman gods have become this kind of civic religion. It's this like practice

of you do your sacrifices, you pay your homagees, but everyone understood there's a lot of gods and you could sort of worship however you want. But there is no true freedom of religion in Rome. So this sort of busybody indicts Justin comes up before Rousticus. And Rousticus sentences him to death because this is what the law says. He gives him multiple chances to disavow. And is Justin a Christian? Is that why he won't? Well, you'll know Justin's name as soon as I tell you.

His name is just, he becomes known as Justin Martyr. Oh, yeah. So Mark Sorrio is his philosophy teacher. is responsible for one of the most famous Christian martyrs. And it's this really interesting case, too, because it's like the legal letter of the law, he's obviously correct at the time. But it's this sort of timeless question

that I think interesting people have been caught up in throughout history, including Pontchus Pilate, which is the law says X, but any common sense interpretation or any sort of sense of human connection would propel you to just like this person go. Who cares? You know?

And so, but he doesn't. He sticks with the letter of the law and thus sort of condemns himself historically as an enemy of the Christian. It's interesting. I was just listening to a podcast about this, about how the early Christians, you know, really had a problem to say

they're not going to, you know, sacrifice something to Zeus or who is it? Juno, no. Jupiter? Jupiter. They're not going to put on incense to Jupiter or whatever like that because, you know, Christ is the son of God and there's only one God and et cetera. And I was like, just, I'm just do it. No one cares. It's like it's all a bunch of, yes, it's some statues. It's just more, it's about fealty to Rome. Yes. And it's similar. And I'm a member of the Baha'i faith.

And the Baha'is in the early days back in the 19th century in Iran, they were put to death right and left for not recanting their faith. And it was the same kind of thing. It's kind of like, and there were a lot of martyrs, tens of thousands of them. Like, just say you're Muslim. You can, sure, you can believe whatever you want. Just be, oh, I am a Muslim and I, I, you know, I disavow so on. Bahá'u'llah, and I'm, and it doesn't mean anything. It's just a court thing. Come on, don't be, don't be such a stick in the mud about it. But, you know, to people of faith at a certain level, um, It's an anathema. And there's a kind of personality type.

I don't think that's my personality type, but I admire it, right? When you're a Martin Luther, like, here I stand, I can do no other or a Galileo, where you're like, all you have to do is this. You just have to check this box. You just have to say this thing you don't have to meet it,

and they say, no, I can't do that. And the Stoics have their versions of those people, too. I imagine at some level, Rusticus sees himself as that person. He's like, look, I don't care. but I worship the law. My job is this. Cato is one of the most famous Stoics.

He doesn't really write anything down. He's known as a Stoic for how he lives. And that's a character in Julius Caesar, the play. Is that the same Cato? Yes, the same Cato. And I'll tell you about his daughter in a second. But so Cato is like the mortal enemy of Julius. She was so hot.

He was the mortal enemy of Julius Caesar. And so Caesar overthrows the Roman Republic. There's a civil war about it. And basically at the end, Cato's side loses. And Caesar makes it clear, like he'll basically pardon anyone, especially someone as illustrious and respected as Cato. All basically Cato has to do is ask for it. And Cato has this huge dinner party with all of his friends and all of his children and

they talk philosophy for hours. And then he puts them on ships. and he sends them back to Rome with explicit instructions that they should do this to Caesar. And then he goes into his room and he picks up one of Plato's books about Socrates

and he reads about Socrates's last hours and then he calls for his sword and the servant senses something's off, refuses, he demands his sword and then he plunges it into his breath and he he would rather die than live on you know asking for for Caesar's mercy and you know he stabs himself I can't imagine a more painful way to die I was just going to say like like falling on your sword yes is a is a phrase and it gets worse right so he does it

immediately passes out okay his his children rush into the room they find their father trying to kill himself. Call for doctor. The doctor, you know, removes the sword, sews him back up, and then a few hours later, Cato wakes up, realizes he's not dead, and rips the wound open, thus killing himself rather than live under what he believed to be Caesar's tyranny. Tyranny, wow. And so there is that sort of personality type that says, you know, like, Justin Martyr any time could have just said, sure. Whatever you want. Hell,

Jupiter, and Hera. They are the greatest. But I cannot do it. Yeah. And there is something to that. If everyone was like that, I'm not sure the world would function, but you need those people,

particularly in moments. And it's like thinking about it, it's like the same reason that Cato gets there is also the reason why when everyone is going along with Caesar, he says, no, this isn't right.

And then Cato becomes the example for the founding fathers. Like the irony is in the 18th century, the most famous play in the world is a play called Cato. And it's like more famous than Hamilton, right? Like a bunch of the famous lines in the American Revolution are lines from Cato. We just don't remember the play. So we think there. Does it still exist? You can find it.

Yeah. He puts on this play at Valley Forge. The depths of the American Revolution. No kidding. Yeah. Wow. I had no idea. So there's this theme that those.

So the idea is like, is a revolt against tyranny. Like I would rather sacrifice my life. Yes. And it's in the fervor of the American Revolution. Yes. I regret I have but one life to give for my country. You know, all these lines are more or less like allusions to this famous play. And then, you know, when they're writing the, the Federalist papers, they're all.

picking names of famous Roman. The founding fathers are play-acting the Stoics and the Greeks and the Romans. Hey, I wanted to give a quick shout out to our spiritual partners at the Fetzer Institute. They have just launched a brand new shiny website over at Fetzer.org. That's Fetzerr.org. And it's full of spiritual tools for modern struggles, which is exactly what we're trying to cultivate here at Soul Boom. Fetzer believes that most of humanity's problems are spiritual at the root, and they're helping

people plant some deeply soulful solutions. So I urge you to go poke around their new website, check out fetzer.org. Thank you, Fetzer Institute, for helping sponsor the show and all of the truly amazing work that you do over there. Fetzer.org. That's Fetzer.org. That's Fetzer.org. I want to go back to the God idea. Seneca says, the God is near you, with you, inside you. I mean it a sacred spirit dwells within us and is the observer and guardian of all our goods and ill. However we treat that spirit, so does the spirit treat us. Now that you could say is your soul. It's not necessarily like a God inside of you.

But yeah, Marcus Aurelia says, hearten yourself with simplicity and self-respect and indifference towards all that lies between virtue and vice. Love the human race, follow God. So many of them, Seneca says all that you behold, that which comprises both God and man is one. it goes on and on and on. Why is it that the kind of spiritual underpinnings of Stoicism

are kind of not brought to the forefront so much? I tend to think people assume that philosophy is godless, right? Maybe this is all Nietzsche's fault or something. But the ancient Greeks and the Romans too were certainly under the impression that someone or something was in control. So the Stoics talk about this idea of the law. Logos, which is in the Bible also the way. But the Stoics obviously are leaving this word untranslated because they're just using it as the logos. But there was this sense there's this kind of rhythm

to the universe, this sort of. So Logos could be equated with like the Tao? Yeah, exactly. Or Dharma. So the stoic metaphor for the logos is that we are like a dog tied to a cart. And the cart is going where it's going. And the dog has two choices. It can trot along cheerful. or it can lay down and be dragged by the carpet. Whoa. So there is this sense, I think, pervasive through Stoicism, that God is in charge or the universe or sometimes, and by the way, some of this stuff depends on the translation, right?

So if you're reading a 17th century translation of the Stoics, it might emphasize God more than a modern translation, which might render that as more like fortune or fate or the, So sometimes we can see a little bit of difference. And sometimes I see in the quotes that it's gods and God. Yes, exactly. And there's, and where do you think the Stoics stand, both from Greek and Roman times? Is it God or gods? What do they believe in? I think that's interesting, right? So if you're, yeah, if you're a 15th century monk translating

the Stoics, are you writing down that, even if they're saying it, are you translating this as the gods or are you going to say God, right? And so, again, a lot of it depends on the translations. But I think obviously as the Romans believe in sort of the gods plural. So I think like depending on the different Stoics, and there's a, there is a profound, say a palpable difference between the different Stoics as to how intense they are about. So like Epictetus, I think is probably more spiritual and speaks more of the gods than say Seneca or Mark Sirelius does. When you go earlier, I mean, Marxus reales is writing in the middle of the second century AD. That's when he's emperor.

Stoicism as a school is founded by Zeno and a Greek merchant in the fourth century BC. That's a long time. Yes. So like it is, imagine the evolution of beliefs just in those 600 years. We go the rise and fall of Greece, then the rise of Rome. Right. And so... And Rome's just about the peak, too, by the way.

Yes. You could argue that Marcus is the beginning of the decline of the Roman Empire. And so, like, this is an ancient philosophy to the later Stoics. I just find that so moving and inspiring. Like, it's been an ancient tradition to the people that I regard as ancient. It's so easy to compress all the Greeks and Romans down to this, like, sort of single era or consciousness. Yeah.

And in fact, each one of them thought that they lived, like, in the future. And I was thinking about this the other day, like, as Marcus Aurelius is walking around Rome, he's in a Rome where the statues still have paint on them. Like, we think of Rome as this marble and ruin, but it wasn't to them. It was the greatest, most powerful empire in the history of the world. And then he's visiting Greece as this historical site that was the, it'd be like visiting Jerusalem or something today. Yeah. And he's deeply moved and inspired by going to this historical place where the stuff happened.

There's lines in Marks Rios' meditations where he's like references, where he's like referenced. plays that would be like me alluding to Shakespeare. Right, because it's hundreds of years earlier. Yeah, and those plays are lost. Like, we just know that it's from a play. And Marx-Sruly writes his meditations in Greek, not Latin, even though the Romans spoke Latin. Greek is the philosophical language, and he is making an artistic sort of spiritual choice by writing in to himself,

but right, even though no one would see it, he's writing to himself, but he's doing it in the, like, the native language of philosophy. Right. I read a thing that,

because we do lump all of that time together, that it was more distance between Cleopatra to the makers of the pyramids than there is between Cleopatra and us. Yes. It was over 2,000 years that the pyramids had,

been built before Cleopatra walked the earth. Like she could look at the pyramids and be like, how did they build this? Yeah. Right? Like the idea of history being this thing that only we studied. But in the past, they were also studying history. And it was closer, but also the same distance. Yeah.

Yeah, they call those historical wormholes. You hear about something and then it gives you this. To me, that's a very wholly kind of mind-blowing thing when you, when you go, yeah, like she, she would have looked up at the pyramids the same way that you or I might look up at the pyramids and break. What is this? Why?

These people. Yes. Because does she even necessarily feel related to them? No, I mean, it would be hundreds of generations. Yeah. Like we were talking about this placato, just in the way that like this piece of theater is shaping the culture and teaching people these ideas.

Like my son, who you mean, is obsessed with Hamilton the play. And like, this is his entry point into history and, you know, the founding and all this stuff. And it's like, oh, yeah, this is, the theater has always done this. So sometimes we look, we think like, well, what would they think about pop culture? They had pop culture then, too. Like, there's a famous play in Athens that just, like, is ruthlessly satirizing Socrates. and everyone's laughing at him. But today, theater is like the fancy art. But to them, it was just the art.

Back then, it was TikTok. Theater was just the way young people told stories. Totally. Yeah. There's an SNL skit from this season where it's like, it's the first play. Jack Black plays, Jack Black and then the other guys are watching the first play ever put on in Athens.

Oh, that's fun. And they're like, what is this? You know? Yeah. And then they, you know, they're like, you brought us here to watch a murder? What? You know, like they keep interrupting.

That's not the king. That's my neighbor. You know, they keep interrupting. And then finally they're like, sit down, shut up. And the next act, there is nudity. And then they. But like all, like, so much of the stuff that, again, we now think is classical or, you know, elevated.

Right. At the time, I mean, Socrates is considered this. like lowly disruptor, corruptor of the youth. He wasn't up here. He was down here. When the Greeks first bring philosophy to Rome, the Greece is now outmatched by the Romans, so they send this sort of diplomatic embassy to Rome.

They send their three best philosophers, one of whom is a Stoic. And they each give these talks. And Cato, the elder, who's Cato's great-great-grandfather. It's like the most eminent of the Romans. He hears these philosophers, and he immediately moves for philosophy to be banned from Rome. As a corruptor of the youth, these people are saying, arguing questions both ways, they're entertaining these radical ideas. So again, today we think of philosophy as this elevated, you know, thing that people came out.

But at one point, it was the exact opposite. Well, and Shakespeare is the same way. It's amazing thing about Shakespeare is that kings would watch Shakespeare. spare. But then, you know, the rabble rousers would watch it down in the... In the pit. In the pit. Yeah. Yeah. And pay a couple of shillings and they would bring fruit to throw at people and shout out at the actors up there. So the actors had to be aware of the people down in the pit and then the royalty up in the boxes. And that these things are also happening simultaneous. It's like other days at the Globe Theater, they're having like bear baiting. You know, like we like we tend to go like our clotures in the gutter right now. It's like 64 funny

cars and WWE wrestling. Yes. And then theater the next night and then, you know, a great concert the next night. Like, we tend to all, we tend to be all or nothing about culture when in fact the high and low have always existed simultaneously and that some people enjoy both and different planes of society exist on one or the other. Something you said earlier really struck me about logos because logos is something that I've tried to understand, and there's a kind of a Christian interpretation of Logos, right? It's like the word made flesh. And there's like Christ is Logos. It's like, it's mystery, knowledge, incarnate, but only incarnate in as much as it voices some kind of truth. There's a truth voice to it. There is something about logo, word, like a logo, literally,

like coming forth. And I know it has its precedent in Greek philosophy, but it probably goes even further back. What can you tell me about kind of the spiritual underpinnings of this concept of logos? Well, isn't it interesting that Eastern and Western philosophy both kind of have their own version of the thing? And I wonder if this is just a response to the sort of fundamental reality of existence, which it seems to be there's this kind of rhythm, this direction,

this thing, you know? And then today we have different words for it, right? But there is something about, there is something kind of ineffable about what we're referring to when you talk about the logos. And yet there's something, you know, when you see it about it, that all these different cultures simultaneously come up with the same explanation or a different word for the same phenomenon. And so, like the Stoics talk about this idea of living in accordance with, nature. And they don't mean like, oh, live like a tree or go live in the woods, but they just go like live in accordance with nature. Balance harmony. Yeah. And people go, what does that mean? And sometimes they go like, I don't know, but I also know. Like, I think you know. Like,

I think it was Nietzsche who said that it was Nietzsche or Schopenhauer said that sometimes that the Stoics were kind of superficial out of profundity. Sometimes I feel like there's this version of it where if you define it or you try to define it, you lose the beat on. on it, and if you just kind of let it exist as something slightly ineffable, you get it more than you get it when you try to understand it. I don't know, that might sound evasive, but to me, like, when I think of the logos, I think living accordance in nature, I kind of, to me, there's just this kind of gut level understanding of what that is. I love that it doesn't matter whether you're reading the Tao Te Ching or meditations, or you're reading like, you know, the Bible and you're

like, are they all kind of saying this same thing on some level? Let's come back to this quote by Seneca, all that you behold, that which comprises both God and man is one. You refer to this in stillness as the key, and it's really resonant for me as a Baha'i. It's called all is one. Yeah.

And it's so Hindu. It's this non-duality, which is a core principle of Hinduism, that really spiritual enlightenment is when you see that we are all one, that the veil of separation with this and that, or I and you are dropped, and there's kind of an interconnectedness and a greater compassion because of that.

And you reference in the book, the stoic idea of sympathy, compassion, and agape, and how everything is all intertwined, the oneness of humanity, undergoing joys and sorrows of one endless project together. Tell us more about that because it's, and that is, again, like Logosus, bridges east and west in some really interesting ways. It's interesting because the perception of Stoicism is as this individualistic philosophy. It's this kind of like you don't control other people, but you control yourself. So focus on mastering

the self. That's kind of, I think that's the entry point for most people into Stoicism. But it's extremely practical. Yes. Yes. And yet, the more you read the Stoics, there is this sense of interconnectedness. Like Marx-Ruess mentions the idea of the common good 80 times in meditations, probably more than any other idea except for maybe mortality. What Greek phrase is he saying when he says common good?

This idea that we're all sort of meant for each other. He says, you know, the fruit of this, to me the gap is bridge. She says, the fruit of this life is good character and acts for the common good. So good character is like you, the standards you hold yourself, how you act, and then are you of service to others? Couldn't that be a foundational belief in almost every religious practice for history as well? To make yourself better. And you try and make the world of best life. So the famous passage in Meditations that he opens.

So the book one, actually to speak about one in intracist, the book one of Meditations is Marxist listing. all the things he's grateful for and all the things he learned from his mentors and teachers in life. And then book two, which is really kind of book one, he opens with this passage where he goes, look, today the people you're going to meet are going to be awful. They're going to be dishonest and they're going to be annoying and they're going to be shitty and dysfunctional and lie. He just lists all the kinds of things that you're going to experience in the course of the day. And so that's a famous one.

People go, okay, this is what stoicism is, this kind of cynical resignation. but the second half of the same passage, he goes, but why are they like this? He says, they're like this because they don't know the difference between good and evil. They haven't been taught what you've been taught. He says, you have to make sure that you don't let them implicate you in their ugliness. And then he sort of pivots a little bit more. And he says, but you have to remember we're all meant to work together. He says, we're here like, two rows of teeth, upper and lower, you know, like fingers and hands. He uses all these different metaphors.

He does it again throughout meditation. But basically that we're all part of this larger organism. And that even annoying people, even dishonest people, even like evil people are all part of this complicated whole that is humanity and that they're doing their job and you have to do your job. And the thing you control is not letting them make you like them and not letting them make you abandon your work, which is to be good and decent and kind and all the opposite of these things to them and to everyone else. And I kind of think that's like the work of Stoic

philosophy. There is this like pragmatism and realism and maybe even a little bit of cynicism at the beginning. And all that is designed to get you to a place where you're not surprised, you're not disappointed, you're not angry, you're not easily rattled. And then you're doing your work which is to be of service and of use. I think what I've always loved about Stoicism is who the Stoics were. So even we're talking about Roustic, it's not perfect. Certainly Mark Shulis is not perfect. Seneca works for Nero, not perfect.

But what they all had in common is that they weren't full-time professors. They were all engaged in work. And civic society often. Civic society. None of the Stoics turn away from. society, which I think there is a tradition in a lot of the other spiritual pursuits of doing precisely that. The highest sort of function of your spiritual enlightenment is this disavowal of the world.

Monasticism. Yeah. And there's none of that in Sto. Even the Epicureans, the Epicureans retreat to the garden where they act and or marry and, you know, talk about things. but they're not in the agora. They're not in the forum. And I've just found it always interesting

that the Stoics are trying to participate in politics, participate in life. They're trying to be philosophers in the arena, so to speak. And bring their philosophy to bear and their actions and their interactions. And all of this is built around the idea of serving the common good. One of the most beautiful illustrations

of this idea of the common good there's a stoic named Hierocles. And he says that we all operate inside a series of concentric circles. And so at the center is us. And he says like the baby is born perfectly self-interested. All it cares about is its own survival, right? But then it becomes attached to the mother and the father. And then it expands.

And basically he said that each of these circles, each of these rings gets a little bigger. and a little bigger. You know, you have your family and your extended family and your neighbors and your countrymen. And then you have maybe Rome is an empire. So it has all these alliances. And then there's people you've never met. People haven't been born. There's the environment. And it says that the work of the philosopher, the work of Stoicism was actually about pulling these outer rings inward. That that's like, how do you care about those outer rings as much as you. you care about yourself or the people that are closest to you, which I found. So I've always been fascinated by this. And then I was interviewing Peter Singer, the ethical philosopher and, you know,

animal rights activist. And his first book is, it is basically a mirror of this same image, which he comes to independently. He talks about expanding the circle, right? And his first book is called the expanding circle. And this point is that, you know, how do you expand your circle of things and people that you care about? And that that's kind of the work of philosophy and spiritual traditions. I think this is the part to me that I've always found most admirable about Christianity is its emphasis on caring about people that you might not naturally be inclined to care about. That it, I think, through spirituality, through work, through study, through telling ourselves the stories of these great men and women in history, were able to, not completely, but edge a little bit closer

to overriding our inherent selfishness. Wait, wait, didn't Jesus work for ice? Yes, yes. He was out there rounding up all those illegal, Egyptians, Jordanians, Turks, Afghans, kicking them the hell out of Palestine. I think that's the message of the Good Samaritan, right? Pretty much. He gets rid of that guy and he's admonishing people for helping the stranger.

Yep. And he loves rich people. He loves money changers. Yep. You know, this is... Yes. Blessed are the money changers? Yes.

Blessed are the warmongers, I think is from Sermon on the Mount. Yeah, he was a very judgmental guy, if I'm remembering correctly. Super, super. But that is interesting. I write about it in Soul Boom, and it is at the center of so many spiritual. traditions and I still see it today in America like if you know if if our family member was assaulted we would be furious we would stop at nothing to find justice uh for yeah you know for the for the victim and you know find the perpetrator and yeah and if even if that happened to our neighbor it's like oh

sure we're a family member or a cousin second cousin or whatever and then and then we slowly go out and then it happened in our town it happened on our street and we'll will be incessing You know, oh, if it happens in Ventura County, we get really, you know, riled up about a disaster that happened or a shooting or a tragedy or something like that. And then it's America, you know, it's like, oh, it's 9-11, America was attacked.

And we should be, you know, thousands of people lost their lives. Their families are grieving. We were attacked on our soil. It's devastating. But where do we draw that line? And how do we draw that line? And why do we draw that line? And why do we draw that line and not incorporate South Sudan into the concentric circles of family,

cul-de-sac, school, county, state, and nation? Yes. Yeah. Have you read a Camus the Fall? I have not. He has this, so that basically the sort of an allegory for the Holocaust of like, you know, a terrible thing happening and people just being like, that doesn't affect me. Basically, it opens with the story.

He's walking through the streets of Paris, and he hears someone go into the water, and he thinks someone has fallen or jumped, but that part of your mind, that when you see something that would require you to be involved, you rationalize why it didn't happen or why you don't need to be involved. Right?

You pass a car accident, someone else will call. You hear scream in your neighborhood, and you go, ah, someone else will call. call or you hear about suffering or whatever. Someone else will solve that. That's the timeless thing. And so he ignores it. And then basically his life slowly falls apart.

And the book is about the sort of moral injury that we inflict on ourselves when there's something we could do and then we find a way to not do it. And at the end of the book, he says, you know, something like, I wish I could go back in time so I could save the two of us, referring to the person who went in and himself. And that's Peter Singer's famous analogy, too. You know, if you were walking to work and there was a child drowning in a puddle in front of you, but to save them, you would have to get your clothes dirty. You would, of course, get your clothes dirty. And yet, we hear about things like that happening in other parts of the world, and we don't get our clothes dirty.

And I think, obviously, depending on how you think about it, you know, that you either sell all your stuff and, you know, start volunteering in a medical clinic in South Sudan, or maybe more practically, you go, okay, yeah, my circle is too small. And how can each of us expand our circle to include more and more people and to not, there's there is just a very human part of ourselves that is very good at convincing us that something's

not our problem and that somebody more qualified or more equipped or more wealthy or whatever that this is more their domain than ours and someone else will do it yes someone else will take care of it yeah and i i like what i've always liked about the stoics is that they were involved. I think people think of stoicism as this preserve your equanimity and your detachment at all costs. But that's not what people who run for public office or, you know, serve in the armed forces or, you know, speak out about injustices. That's not how it's working.

There's a whole generation of Stoics known as the Stoics. opposition that are such perpetual thorns in the sides of the emperor that again all philosophers are banned from Rome. So it's ironic that Marxian would become emperor later given this tradition of resistance. I don't know. To me, the purpose of life is not to philosophy should not be making you a better sociopath, which I think it can easily do if you decide to only use its logical components. We've got a substack. If you love the Soul Boom podcast, you're going to want to get our weekly newsletter substack sent to your inbox. A lot of them delve into the ideas around the podcasts that we're doing that week. So sign up. Please subscribe. Go to soulboom.com. Thank you.

So one of the things we talk about on Soul Boom a lot is mental health and tools for mental health, especially spiritual ones. And we talk to comedians about their mental health journeys and doctors and theologians and authors and experts. And your work with Stoicism has just brought so much invigoration and excitement, inspiration to young people in all of this work. And I don't want to boil down like all of your bestsellers down into, well, actually I do. I want to boil all of your bestsellers down into some easy to save everyone the trouble easy to digest kind of nuggets having to do specifically with what you see as young people struggling with mental health today yeah and where the stoics might provide some solutions some just where the rubber meets the road meat and potatoes

solutions to gaining resilience gaining courage finding stillness overcoming obstacles gaining wisdom all of these things that the Stoics put front and center. I think at the most basic level, stoicism, is this idea we don't control what happens, we control how we respond to what happens, which to me is resilience. Resilience is not like, oh, I prevent all bad things from happening, or I simply endure all bad things happening and I absorb them and they don't affect me in any way. No, it's this ability to bounce back from the things that happen, to use them in some way,

And it's this idea that we have a choice whether this thing makes us better or worse. Not does this thing make us more or less money? Does this thing, you know, improve our physical health or not, right? Because, you know, you could have cancer, you could get in an accident. There's all these things can happen to you and be taken from you. And I think the ancients felt this very acutely

in a world where, you know, medicine was what it was, where there were tyrannical emperors. Well, child mortality. rates. Totally. Marks Rulisbury's half of his children, right? And he was a king. Yes.

So no amount of wealth or power, especially then protected you from the mercilessness of nature and fate and time. But we decide what it's going to mean in our lives. And when the Stoics are saying the obstacle is the way, that's what they mean. How are you going to use this as an opportunity to do something or to, be someone, even if the majority of the benefits reaped by this experience are not you, right? Like, you go through something terrible and then you write a book about it or you make a piece of art about it. And then that helps other people down the road. That is a way that the obstacle is the

way. It's not necessarily the way for you. Like, you wouldn't have chosen, like to you, it's not necessarily fully redemptive, but it is beneficial as a whole. I think that's what the Stoics are saying. So I think resilience is not this like toughness that allows you to endure and absorb everything, but it is this ability to be flexible and adapt and adjust. And the Stoics are saying, you want to be able to go, okay, I can work with that. Because that's the, we don't really have a choice, right? If you need everything to go a certain way, you're either, you've got to be real lucky. And we're not all real lucky, right? And in fact, when you look at a lot of these people we admire, I can think about Socrates, right? When a kid learns about Socrates, they think of Socrates,

this clever guy, this guy that lives in this quaint time of togas and, you know, walking around the olive grows and having these discussions, even if they know the end of the story that he's to death, there's still kind of an idyllicness to it that totally belies when he actually lived. Socrates lives through the great power conflict of Athens and Sparta, which would be like a world war between America and China. And he has to fight in this war. And most of the battles he fights in, his country loses. Eventually, they're taken over by the Spartans, which was this, despite what the movie 300 wants you to think, like this deranged military.

very cult. And then that ushers in a time in Athens known as the time of the 30 tyrants. 30 tyrants. That's a high number. Yeah. That doesn't sound fun. And then, you know, he's largely thought of as like a loser. He's largely disliked. He's brought up on these trumped up charges. And then he's executed. Like, it is not fun to be Socrates. And yet it is not, Socrates does not live in fun times. And yet it was fun to be Socrates. Socrates has a great time. Socrates is the best that he can be. Epictetus, the Stoke Phos where he would say that he thinks Socrates is the great athlete of his time. And someone says, what do you mean? And he says, an athlete doesn't spend a lot of time saying whether something is a good throw or a bad throw. He says a ball player catches the ball and throws it back. Catches the ball and throws it back. That's to me what resilience is. is catching the ball and throwing it back, not going like, this is unfair.

This, it sucks. Why did this happen to me? Why didn't people listen to me? It could have gone otherwise. You know, what if it was like this? It is like this. And resilience and I think excellence, Lisa Stokes was the ability to make this into something.

I was listening to this meditation by this guy, Rupert Spira, that Pete Holmes, a comedian, told me about the best it was an incredible meditation because it was all kind of like everything is exactly the way it should be right now everything is perfect everything is as it should be live in total acceptance of how everything is right now and in doing this meditation there was more to it than that but i was realizing like wow i always want things to be different from the way that they are yeah i want someone i'm driving behind to be driving faster yeah or someone driving behind me to be driving slower, or I want so-and-so to call me back, or I want this job offer to be given

to me, or I want my knee to not hurt so much, or you wanted someone else to win an election, you wanted different policy to be enacted, you wanted the economy to be different. It can be big, it can be small, it can be from your knee to the world economy and how it affects you. I'd like not to die. But there is a profound power in just even just taking some, stillness, finding some clarity presence in the inner life, in kind of like a rabid acceptance, radical acceptance of how everything just is the way it is. Well, Epicetus said that the first task of a philosopher is to understand there are things that are in our control and things that are not in our control. And really only the things that are in our control are worth our attention.

And that's why I've always, I find the serenity prayer to be so remarkable because I feel like if you wrote it down and you ask someone when they thought this was written, like, when's the earliest they would guess? No one's guessing like 1955 or whatever. Like you're not, I think he dashes that. I think Reinhold Nyberg dashes that off like on a transcontinental train. Like that's not the technology that that prayer should be interacting with. That should be like the Renaissance at the earliest, you know? This is, this feels like. It could be written above like the Parthenon or something. Totally. Totally. Like this is, these were words uttered by the Oracle at Delphi. That's when that feels like, my other favorite one is like, this is totally a tangent.

But free fallen by Tom Petty was not written in 1989. That makes no fucking sense to me. You like that is not an 80s and 90s song. that is like the first rock and roll. Like that's like a 60s song. You know, it doesn't make any sense. Like sometimes there's things that clearly tap in to an ethos or an energy that is much,

much older than it is. And I think the serenity prayer is obviously a very good example of that. Because it is, I think, rooted ultimately in stoic philosophy and sort of Christian wisdom. But yeah, you have to go, hey, I don't have a choice that this, happened, but I do have a choice in what I tell myself about what's happened and what it means

to me. And that most of the time, the reason I'm upset or frustrated or hurt, offended, or insert, whatever word, is because I am choosing to see it the wrong way. Epitiz, you know, everything has two handles, which handle you're going to grab it by. And when we're, we tend to grab it by the aggrieved handle, the harmed handle, the I'll never recover handle, you know, the disempowering handle instead of the handle that says, okay, I'm going to use this, or this is good enough. And it is funny because in a different context, we might see the same thing totally differently. You know, like last night I took my whole extended family out to dinner and I thought I lost my wallet.

Like in, I thought I was driving there. I was like, where's my wallet? I couldn't find my wallet. And I'm like, okay, how much cashed out of my wallet? Cancel my credit cards. Yeah, what a giant pain is going to be to cancel my credit cards. I got going out of the country. I got to get, do I have my driver's license?

Just all this stuff, right? And then like right before the dinner, I find the wallet. It just got under the seat. Did not care about the check subsequently because it's free. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I had already, I just resigned myself to this enormous imposition. And then that imposition is lifted and I suddenly see other impositions differently because

you've got the high of the difference, right? So it is so often that we see things in one context and it's upsetting and frustrating. And then in other contexts, we see it totally differently. And that to the Stoics, I think to any philosopher, you realize, oh, I have an immense amount of discretion over how I choose to process this thing. Like the thing is, Stokes would say it is objective, our opinion about it is not. And so they go, the thing isn't what's upsetting you.

It's what you've told yourself about this thing that is upsetting. Which is a basic of Buddhism. Yes. It's your, you are in control of your attitude about something, your thought and your attitude about something. Yes. Is your greatest freedom. Yes.

And also that you have the power to just have no opinion. Like, like obviously trying to convince yourself that the loss of a child or a terrible tragedy is not as bad as you are thinking in this moment. To me, that's almost, that's like where a sage gets to. To just go, okay, right? Like, like, we can see these things along a spectrum and total acceptance and the ability to see the goodness in it. You know, that is the work of, I think, years and years of practice. and maybe it's not even as healthy as maybe some people think it is.

But to just get to a point where you go, I'm not going to have, like that Buddhist thing of just wait and see, you know, or just wait, the pause is, I think, a much more tangible breakthrough that these traditions can give you. What about stillness and contemplation? Yeah, obviously. Mark Cyrillius wrote, Meditations, you know. Which in Greek is just to himself.

Oh, okay. The Greek title of the book is to himself because he's writing this journal. It was like a journal. Yes. To himself. Yeah. Okay. Who decided to call it meditations?

And again, you realize the translator has so much, there's an addition of meditations called the Emperor's Handbook. There's the thoughts of the Emperor. You know, there's all these different, but famously or traditionally, it's just been called meditations. He's not, you know, doing meditation as we understand it. And yet, for the Stoics, journaling was effectively the meditative process. Couldn't that be part of a mental health balm or salve? Yes. Journaling. One is contemplation. Seneca, in one of his letters, he says, you know, here's my practice. I wait for my wife to go to bed. And then I sit up and he says,

I put the day up for review. He says, I let nothing go by. He's like, I, I, I look at all of it, I look at where I fell short, I look at what I did well, I look at what I learned. He says, I sleep very soundly after this practice. And the idea of journaling as a spiritual practice, I think the Stoics saw journaling the way that the Buddhists see meditation. It is the fundamental philosophical spiritual practice,

sitting down and talking to you, yourself about the ideas. One of the interesting things about meditations and why it's sometimes been critiqued as a philosophical work is there's a lot of repetition in it and it's somewhat disjointed and it's obviously incomplete. And you go, yeah, that's because it's a book for the writer, not for the reader. It is as an unintended byproduct, a very readable, accessible, and relatable work of philosophy. And they're reminding themselves of something that they want to remember every single day. So they keep writing it down. And we read it over and over again. Yeah. If you looked at my journal, you'd be like, oh, these are the most important things in,

of his worldview. And it's like, no, these are actually what I'm worst at. Like, I'm not writing about the stuff. I'm not reminding myself of the stuff that I'm good at. Right. What I am writing to myself is about like slowing down and being present and managing my temper. You know, those are my, that's my shit. And that's why it would come off as totally disproportionate. So do you journal pretty much every day? Yeah. This morning, last night. I keep a bunch of different journals, but yeah, it's, I do it in, I do it in addition to the writing on a laptop. No, no, no. I think because I write on a computer for my job, there's something about it being analog that's very important. And do you meditate? I don't, but I do a lot of like solo endurance sports.

I run or bike or swim and walk every day. And that's to me my sort of meditative practice. That's where I'm doing that stuff. I have trouble just sitting, which is probably why I should do more meditating, but like I find I get it there. And do you pray? Every once in a while.

But it's not like a deliberative practice for me. I think I should. Do I think you should? Yeah, what's your? I don't think anyone should do anything. I think that, you know, prayer is a natural expression of, you know, a connection to a power that's greater than you. And then a feeling that some kind of communion with that power is a natural state of being. You know, I don't think it's something anyone should do.

If you feel it, I think that it can yield great fruits. Yeah. And it's not all just like, please, can I have a better parking spot? Please, can I have a raise? Sure, sure, sure. Can I have a bike for Christmas? That's wishing. Yeah, that's wishing.

And it's also, it can be, please, please help me. But, you know, Annie Lamott talks about in her book, you know, help, thanks, wow. You ask for help, but thanks, you know, gratitudes, like, so really this is gratitudes. Or wow, just wonder, curiosity, awe at the universe and sharing that. where prayer doesn't become something that you kind of allocate time for. Like now I'm going to go pray. And here's the, you know, our father, this. And dear, dear Lord, this can, you know, it's more of a state of being.

Abdul Baháh from the Baha'i faith says, strive day by day that thy actions may become beautiful prayers. It's a conversation you're having with the divine force around you. It's, it also hopefully seeps into the actions that you're doing as you become kinder and wiser. It's looking at things with awe and wonder and curiosity and with gratitude and help is there from some kind of divine energy source if we really need it. And I truly believe that. Were you raised in the Baha'i faith or did you come to it when you were older?

I was raised in the Baha'i faith. I left it for a long time like so many people do when I was about 20, 21 years old. I didn't want anything to do with religion or morality or God or the soul. Yeah, atheist phase. Yeah, atheist phase. When you read Richard Dawkins in your 20s or whatever. I think I predated Richard Dawkins because this was like the early 90s. And then agnostic phase and then kind of spiritual journey and philosophical journey phase. Yeah, I think even the transition from atheist to agnostic strikes me as a very spiritual one. that I think I've found in my own journey.

Did you start as an atheist? No, and I'm interesting about going back to your faith because I grew up Catholic. And so, not like hardcore gather, but I grew up Catholic. I was confirmed. And it's interesting, there's something weird about watching your religion

you grow up with become sort of like politically relevant and popular in a way that it is becoming right now. Like young men are turning to Catholicism I know in great numbers and turning to stoicism in great numbers. I know. Thanks to you. In great parts.

Well, I like the second one more than I like the first one. Okay. I like the trend of the second one more than the first one. Okay. It does seem to me that the Catholicism, these young men are coming to, is not the one I recognize or not the parts of it that I would try to teach these young men. Do you know what I mean?

Like the Catholicism that I liked is the sort of Catholic worker Catholic, Catholicism of, you know. Dorothy Day. Exactly. The social conscience, social conscience, Catholicism, which struck me as always being very aligned with the teachings of Jesus. And there seems to be maybe, and maybe this is also why Stoicism is popular, but there's, it's almost like this imperial Catholicism. Do you know what I mean? Like they're attracted to the power of the church and the ritual, the hierarchy of the church. And yeah, the ritual. or the church. Yes, like this is how you're supposed to live your life.

And if you don't, you're condemned in some way. And don't you think in some ways, like something like the Catholic Church where I've always said, like if I wasn't a Baha'i, it'd probably be a Catholic, that there's something for everyone. Like you can be the Wall Street businessman tycoon Catholic.

And you can be the humble, hippie, you know, handing out sandwiches to the hobos on the train tracks, you know, Catholic. Yeah. And you can be Thomas Merton writing poetry in a monastery. Sure. And studying Zen Buddhism Catholic. And you can be the family man in the suburbs Catholic.

Like, it allows for a great freedom and range of expression, depending on, you know, the range of politics and your relationship to hierarchies. I think the same thing about Stoicism, which is like, I don't care why you came to it. I care where you end up. You know, when we started Soul Boom and I wrote the book and we were thinking about a podcast and thinking about creating social media, there was one kind of guide that we had, which was the Daily Stoic. Oh, really?

Just admire what you've done so much. The way you've created, it sounds like a dirty word, but brand. And I mean that in the best possible sense because you do provide so much kind of strength and hope and focus for so many people. But, you know, based in a book, you're a personality, you've got social media, you're disseminating wisdom through a lot of different venues, right? Newsletter and whatnot and various books and podcasts and the whole deal. And yeah, we were following in your footsteps.

Oh, well, thanks. Ryan, thanks for coming by, man. Dream. Long time listener, big time fan. Do you remember you on metaphysical milkshake back in the day? I did a podcast with Reza Aslan and you were on it. You zoomed in during COVID. It was early on in the whole Stoic experience.

I remember you came on Daily Stoic. We had a good time. Yeah. Thanks, man. This is awesome. Such a pleasure. The Soul Boom Podcast. Subscribe now on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever else you get your stupid podcasts.