Soul Boom - Unpacking "Drugs" (w/ Pete Holmes, Ari Shaffir, Neal Brennan, Dr Joe & More)

Episode Date: April 20, 2026

Are psychedelics & mind-altering substances like ayahuasca, DMT, psilocybin and ketamine a path to healing and spiritual awakening? Or a dangerous shortcut to enlightenment? Let's look back on how Neal Brennan, Pete Holmes, Reggie Watts, Josh Radnor, Arthur Brooks, and Dr. Joe Dispenza debate the benefits, risks, and meaning behind psychedelic experiences, from ego death to divine connection. We dig deep into consciousness, addiction, spirituality, and whether true transformation can come from a substance or must be earned through deeper inner work. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⏯️ SUBSCRIBE!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠👕 MERCH OUT NOW! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠📩 SUBSTACK!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  FOLLOW US! IG: 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://instagram.com/soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ TikTok: 👉 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠http://tiktok.com/@soulboom⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  CONTACT US! Sponsor Soul Boom: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Work with Soul Boom: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Send Fan Creations, Questions, Comments: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[e-mail]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Executive Produced by: Kartik Chainani Executive Produced by: Ford Bowers, Samah Tokmachi Companion Arts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Finally, I got to ayahuasca, which I'd heard was a good antidepressant, vaguely. And then somebody sent me an article from the New York Times because I'm at the age where I get my drug ideas from the New York Times. The gray lady. Yeah. And I did it probably 15 times. And I got better, less depressed every time.

And then I did. And I got, none of the day I got, you have. to stop taking antidepressants to do it. And not only did I go off antidepressants to do it, I stayed off them and be in the third night I stopped being an atheist. And I want to get to that. Yeah. I love this story. I've heard little nibbles of it that you've told some other place and I want to do a deep dive. I want to do the deepest possible dive on the god that you found through ayahuasca. But first, similar to the god you found in your book or that you, whatever. Yeah, yeah.

I want to push on this a little bit. I want to say that anyone that's doing hallucinogens because they're clinically depressed, they've tried everything else, and they need a way out, or they're clinically addicted, they've tried everything else, and they went a way out.

I'm amen for that. So I'm all in. I'm all in. I have so much more to say. Are you sure you want to say this right now? Well, I just want to say, as someone who's done almost 20 times ayahuasca, I went from 15 to 20 now.

Be careful. Let me get the part two of my diatribe here. First of all, I hate the words plant medicine. Because you know what else is a plant? Heroin. You know what else is a plant? Cocaine. Don't give me your plant medicine bullshit.

I'll do my best. It feels like a justification. I also get a little bit tired of the contemporary idea of instant spiritual enlightenment due to a drug. Because I am old enough to remember people talking about LSD in the same way in the early 70s. And they're going to start talking about it again soon. They are now. I remember people talking about mushrooms and peyote that way in the 80s. And there's always been a component of society that has said, you can find God, you can find divinity, you can find meaning and purpose and illumination through drugs. And I get a little

scared because you have all of these very powerful influencers talking about, you know, doing ayahuasca or acid and hallucinogens. And it can be dangerous. I've also met a guy. I've met several people, including an uncle of mine, who completely fried their brains from microdosing and overusing. And I do think that one can find the divine inspiration, transcendence, connection, incredible beauty in ways that don't involve drugs. Now again, this is not a judgment on you at all. I respect your journey so much. Like when I hear about your life story, what you went through and what you've accomplished,

and I truly mean this, Neil, like, it's jaw-dropping to me. And I've heard some of your ayahuasca stories and like, I want to get deeper. But I get a little scared about this. Hey, everyone jump on into the hallucinage. bandwagon. Totally agree. Yeah. Because the truth of it is, I've had two experiences that were, I did, after the I was guy,

I did DMT, Bufo, Alvarius, it's got three different names. I don't know what that is. It's a toad venom. You did a toad venom? Let me finish. But it's one of the good ones. No, it's a toad secretion, not a venom. It's like a, you know, it's like a toad.

Let's say it's a toad. Toad jimple. Yeah, I mean, like a pimple. They literally scrape the white and then they dry it and then you smoke it. It's basically pure DMT and you freebase it. Okay. DMT is an ingredient in ayahuasca, but you drink it so your body breaks it down and then it enters your bloodstream. So it's reptile medicine.

Basically, yeah. And I did it and it was more severe than that. It was so far past. I do a thing in blocks where I do like a montage of what it was kind of like that doesn't even get to it. It was I was so far past. I told somebody I was aiming for God and I missed my stop. I was Michael Pollan did it and he said it was in this,

I had the same experience. It was like going to before the Big Bang. Wow. You don't think about it long. Like give yourself three seconds of what that would be like. and then get out of there. Okay, so let's go right to the God thing. You do ayahuasca.

You're a diehard atheist, and you witness the divine. What's that like? Talk us through it. I think a lot of people, especially in L.A. and a lot of the influences and all that stuff, they're doing these drugs.

I'll use your word. You and the cops. They're trying to optimize themselves. They're trying to be better workers. They're trying to be, I'm going to break through and then I'm going to be, it's the reason people out here, juice and salad and hike. It's all to become famous. I really believe that. It's all to get.

I've never heard anyone comparing juicing, saluting, and hiking to doing toad secretions. They're ultimately performance enhancing drugs. That's how I think most people do them. I did them because I heard it would end depression, right? And then I have. Which I respect. Mad respect. Yeah.

But I think most people are doing it to just like, so that I can. And I think most people are also doing it because they're lazy because I want to go for a weekend. I totally agree. I totally agree. And I want to pay a shaman $1,200 and I want to have a shortcut to transcendence. Yes. Instead of reading the great books.

They call it spiritual bypass. And I don't even know if my depression reasoning is the right reasoning. I kind of think it's better than trying to be a better actor, right? or director, whatever. But that's, again, that's my own judgment. So, so I do it. First night, I do it one weekend. And it was, I just had a really nice experience. I like a very pleasant, I cried for like three hours straight to the, and I wasn't even cry. It was kind of joyful crying. I was crying about groups of people. I don't even like groups of people. I just was, I like, it was like, hypnotheria. What was you diagnosed with about joy?

Dyshthymia. So was it the first time you experienced joy? It would not again, it's not like I never experience it, but it's just always a little like, I always had the feeling like there's better one than this. Yeah. So it was not quite that, but it was very, very, very loving and warm. That's great. Yeah. Then I go, that's one on a Saturday night and then a month or two later, I go to a weekend. First night, the medicine just didn't work.

Do you love the, how about Psychonaut? Do you like Psychonaut? A buddy of my name Carl Hart wrote a book called Drug Use for Grownups that you would enjoy. He believes you can do heroin a little and you can do meth a little. And he's a professor of Columbia. That's right up my alley. Head of a head of neuroscience. Yeah.

Or something. Second night. Drink it. And I'm, the thing about ayahuasca to me is you kind of go inside the fabric of existence. What does that feel like? Can you describe it more specifically? It's so overwhelming where you're inside the essence of, I, you had a lot of, I mean, they're not your words,

but the Native American Tonka, whatever. Wakananka, yeah, the Lakota definition of the great mystery of God. That's not a personification at all. It's not an old man with a beard. I've never once thought it was a, person since I since I got back. The ride that steals the spotlight

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Simply press, brew, and explore. Nispresso, what else? Keep exploring at Nespresso.com. Into it after this night. I never thought it was a person. Never thought it was a man. And I had they say like, mother. It's never been gendered to me.

Somebody told me that that started in the early 2000s. Gendering what I call the central creation force. You're just like, oh, oh. It was, I opened my eyes and it was, Raiders of the Lost Ark, the very end, before the faces melt, when the angels are just flying around. Which is a little terrifying when those angels are flying around.

Yeah. It's not pretty angels. Right, but it's also ill gotten. So I think that covers it. Look, antiquities belong to American white people. And I think that's the point of the movie. I've been to the British Museum. Yeah, exactly.

So it was just like a, oh, okay, because I grew up Catholic, altar boy, church, all that stuff for 12 years. and you just end up church and just being, I kind of believe that most religious ceremonies in, as we understand them, are pretty close to spiritless and they're a road production or like a high school production of the thing that you can experience.

There is a central... That's a great way of putting it. They get, there is a central creation force, but it doesn't care about any of the things. It's like a community. theater production of the Big Bang. Yes.

And they do this. And they're like, that's ayahuasca. And the thing, the swinging. Yeah. Yeah. And you're like, this is lost in translation. There is a central creation force. Again, that I believe in and that I believe I've experienced.

And it doesn't care what eat, doesn't care of your gay, doesn't care how you pray, it doesn't care. It doesn't. I talked to Pete Holmes about this recently where it's the central creation force that I've experienced isn't a person. So the idea of it having rules is silly. Before you even get into the rules, they're silly. And it real, the reading in Solum, like this, it's a force. It's a and then so. So, but, but I have a couple questions, but talk me through what else you saw, witnessed, experienced, felt, how did it touch your heart? You had some kind of, you touched the central creation force.

Give us some more details. It felt like generations of humanity were kind of in this frequency, like thousands of years. Which is, again, very close to the Native American idea, because it's very hard. From what little I know of Native American spiritual experience, like ancestors are always brought in. It's always like God of our ancestors, connecting with the ancestors. Yeah, I have a joke about the ancestors

where I'm like, if you're black or brown or indigenous, go ahead and pray to your ancestors. White people do not pray to your ancestors. So I didn't see pasty. I have an ancestor, a great, great grandfather who literally killed Native Americans by the score. Yeah. in North Dakota and Minnesota.

So I'm not gonna pray to his spirit. You're double fucked by that, because you can't pray to the natives and you can't pray to the guy who killed. So yeah, I can have a podcast. You're in a tough spot. So there, it felt like that, it felt like, it just felt like an under,

a way bigger picture. Did you hear anything? Did this central creative force speak to you in any way? I've never heard anything. I've never, uh, experienced like, what happens a lot of times after these ceremonies, is everyone shares and it's everyone's trying to out. And I felt like the angels, the spat on me and I had ribbons.

And how special their experience was. I don't have anything I can point to as, especially not on Iowa's guy, a couple times ago. But how do you know that there's a central creation force from doing a drug? Couldn't you have someone who's an atheist said like, well, you took a drug and it lit up this one part of your brain? that made you believe that there was some force outside of yourself. I'm totally willing to accept that that could also be true. Yeah. It sure doesn't feel like it.

You know. And what is your connection to this central creative force since ayahuasca? How does that work on a daily basis, on a weekly basis? Do you communicate with it? Are you able to touch it in meditation? Is there an aspect of prayer? Have you had glimpses of it in nature? in beautiful lovemaking, in witnessing of art.

I am more loving. I am more loving. I'm funnier. This is after the DMT too, which is eight months of like, you know, there was a couple days where I'm like, I think I'm going to have to kill myself. It's like two years ago. I can't bear this because I was awake and I was half here and half there. Yeah. So you meant you had to kill yourself during that process because it was so horrific.

It was so I wouldn't have wished it on Hitler. I remember thinking that like I wouldn't wish this on Adolf Hitler. I've heard that about ketamine and Kholz. I've heard about that people feeling that exact same thing. I've done ketamine. I did ketamine treatment also. I didn't didn't work for me. But it was it was just on I had the thought, am I in God's imagination? shit that's just way past where you're supposed to be. You are in God's imagination. We all are. That's a beautiful way of putting it. I don't, right, but I think it's real.

So, and I think it is physically here. It is a physical thing. So I don't think, I think it's like your, you guys weren't in Ricky's imagination. The British cast was, kind of. But like, it's tangible. It's the actual. That's the first time that Ricky Jervase has ever been compared to a God he doesn't believe it.

Well, Ricky doesn't believe in it. Yeah, but couldn't God? He believes himself, which to him is the same thing. There is a Hindu idea of a God that every time it blinks its eyes, there's a new universe that's created. You know, there's the idea could God's, there's an Ursula Kela Gwynn book. I think it's the dark side of the shadow of the something people will put it in the comments below, where this guy lives in his dreams come true and he comes in manifest and he lives inside of his dreams. Could we all be in the living dream of the central creative force?

I don't have the talent for sci-fi that you do. And I don't, I don't like, it's like when people go, it's a simulation, shit that the fuck up. I just don't, it's not helpful for me to think like, it's simulation. It's almost a form of conspiracy theory to me where, where like, it's a simulation. So I'm not responsible for what I do and I'm being fucked. I'm being manipulated. It's like, no, I believe this is actual. And we make choices and there are consequences. And I have a car and I'm here.

You have a black Tesla. I do. Thank you. Day to day, a lot of it is in my nervous system. I've had so many people come up and be like, you're lighter. I got better on stage because I'm 10% lighter. I get bigger laughs than. I've ever gotten because I'm 10% lighter from Iowa skin DMT. I believe. It's made me fall in love

easier. It gives me a little distance from my nervous system, from my reactive nervous system, a little bit. I yell less. I'm less generally angry. I can watch myself more and like kind of what are you doing? What would you have been like on this podcast? Angrier. For three or four years ago. Angrier. And would you have been a more judgy, like, who is this guy? Like, oh, this guy wants to talk with spirituality.

No, I just wouldn't. No. I mean. Symp actor. Would you have been kind of like? I would have been just generally angrier. Do you connect with this power at all, even in nature and something? I bring that up because, like, I do meditation pretty much daily.

And I have this little bench out in my backyard. And I live in a really privileged place. I live in a really nice house with beautiful trees. Thank you. Sometimes I just can't meditate. I just can't do it. I'm just like, I can't fucking do this. And then I just sit and I just look.

And there's a hummingbird and there's a sunlight streaming through a 50-year-old olive tree. And there's a flower blooming. And I hear a cricket. And I am able to be like, I'm with God. This beauty, this majesty, this mystery. It almost makes me cry. it's just so beautiful and then I just get to sit in witness of it and that can be a kind of meditation and maybe I'm you know there's I've got hippie parents so there's you know I do have a hippie

side of me yeah okay so after the ayahuasca and after the DMT is that just dumb no the now the now at since I've done those two things in a major way and kind of opened up something in myself um whenever I do mushrooms or MDMA it's that Why do you keep doing them? How long are you going to keep doing these hallucinogens? I don't know. In a weird way, it kind of feels like upkeep, meaning it's a continuation of that spirit or that channel.

And I get almost more from MDMA than I've got from Iowaskan DMT. From MDMA, I've gotten my understanding of like, Oh, this is, nature is God. And I had another couple big things from MDMA that I am like, that are shareable, whereas the, the, the, I has stuff is just more in your body. One of them was, I have, I'm, I'm a grudge holder. And one day on MDMA, I was able to release all of my grudges with ease, with absolute ease, right? and then the next day I was like, why was that so easy for me? And it was because I was flooded with dopamine oxytocin, the other one, and the other feel-good chemical.

So it was easy for me to forgive people. It was like I was, it was just an easy thing. Like some people are temperamentally more forgiving. I would argue because they have better chemicals. I realize the reason I'm so sort of obsessed with justice. and fairness and retribution is because I don't, those are the chemicals I have. I have, you know, cortisol and like more negative ones. Yeah.

And the way cortisol to me organizes itself is vengeance, righteousness. Yeah. Those are sort of like the smiles. Yeah. Of cortisol is, is like that organizational thing. So that got me to, I don't even believe what I think I believe. believe it's just what the chemicals are telling me, I believe. Every day. I'm just certain. The only thing that this kitchen serves is is mercury sandwiches. And I just have tried to every morning

remind myself that these are just chemicals. This isn't even a set belief system because on Friday, I was vengeful. Saturday I totally forgave. Yeah, totally forgave everyone. I've also got a thing where I've just been, because I just, like, wrote a will, like a legal will in the case I should, and the unlikely event, and the impossibility that I die. Can I have one thing? Yeah. In your will. Can I have one thing?

Yeah. Will you just put like a plate or something or like a salad fork or? I left Chappelle a dollar just because it's fucking hilarious. It's hysterical. It's hilarious. That's hysterical. So that's been, death has just been on my mind a lot. And I, and then one time on MDMA, I heard a voice, you're going to die soon.

And I was like, yeah, what are you talking about? Oh. Like, yo. Creative coffee. And they were like, no, no, no, no, it's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine.

And what I've come to believe may, it's potentially all my imagination. Like high level, very likely it's all my imagination. Let's put all of those apology statements aside. So chemicals. Yeah. Could be imaginary. We get it. Yes.

Caviots. And, but what I've come to believe is. If you don't enjoy this more, we're going to kill you. And it's been an interesting approach where every day I write in a, hey, you are so, you're having a 1% of 1% of 1% human experience. And you're a fucking asshole if you don't see that and appreciate it. And if you don't start, we're going to kill you. So it's like the movie Speed. But I have to enjoy myself.

You have to. It's like a setup for a movie. It's like a Jim Carrey movie from the 90s. Like if you don't enjoy yourself every day, you're going to explode. Yes. Yeah, that's basically. And so he's like every day, Jim Carrey's like, yeah, juggling, fire eating and going on a roller coaster.

Have you ever done an ayahuasca? Iwaska. How many trips have you? done? I, it's hard for me to pinpoint, but it's around 150. You've done 150? But it was over the course of like 12 years. So it wasn't, yeah. Well, that's still. Yeah, yeah. No, I was enthusiastic about it. Once the last time you did it? It's been years. 20, 2020. But you did a deep dive. Yeah, and a lot of it was while I was on how I met your mother. It was in between the second and third season, I went down to Brazil and Columbia and did my first like nine that summer.

So talk to me. I have mixed feelings about that. Yeah. We can talk through this. That world and that journey. Yeah, yeah. But I'd love to hear your experience. Yeah, yeah.

But you've never done it. I've never done it. Yeah. So I'm an addict and I know it's a different kind of drug. Yeah. I have to be very careful or I would do 150 ayahuasca trips in a short period of time. Well, it is the reason I stopped drinking. was because of it.

You know, I had an evening in Columbia that was all about my drinking. And I realized there was, it highlighted a really not great pattern that I had with alcohol. And also that there was an invitation to step off that train, you know. And I did for four years. And then I tried to drink like a gentleman again and it didn't work. And then I didn't drink for two more years. And then I tried again. And then it didn't work.

And I think I tried one more time. Yeah. And it didn't work. The spells got smaller and smaller. Yeah. But I haven't had a drink since like 2018, 2018. Okay. But mystical experiences?

Oh, yeah. The divine? Beyond. Yeah. Yeah. Heaven, hell, everything. You've been, you saw heaven and hell. What are they like?

Um, well, they're as varied as here. Okay. You know what I mean? Like, like, um, yeah, I, I had all sorts of experiences. I mean, I think the biggest takeaway for me, one, I felt it was probably my first feeling of like being unconditionally loved. Like my first night in Brazil, I felt every cell, every molecule of my body was just saturated in this divine love, a feminine divine love. And I just knew how welcomed I was, all of me, every part of me, you know.

There was no part I had to hide. There was no face I had to put on to receive that kind of love. It was just extraordinary. But you had that on trip number one. Yeah. So you needed 149 more. Well, it's kind of like this. The way I think of this is, let's say you've been looking for a house of worship and you find it.

Right. And the sermon is so beautiful. And the choir just makes your hair stand on end. And like everything about the people are so kind. And you tell someone about it. And you say, I found this place. and you tell them all about it, and say, I'm going next weekend if you want to join me. And they say, well, you already went.

Why do you need to go back? Okay. Right? Like, one, we have a built-in forgetter. You know, we forget, I forget that I'm loved beyond reason. Sure. So I need things to remind myself of that, both daily and, you know, I love you.

Thank you. I believe you. And then, you know, at some point, I think I was getting messages that were, pretty clear that I was like I'm now I'm just having psychedelic experiences like I'm just going back for you know I knew what my homework was but I but I do think that when I would leave an experience I had this desire to be kinder to myself and others I felt like the messages I was getting were 100% aligned with what every great prophet and spiritual teacher says throughout history but it was nature. telling me that, which made me feel like, oh, the earth agrees with Jesus and Buddha.

Like, they're all saying the same thing, because it's these plants, you know, it's natural, this natural technology. And I don't know, it left me feeling like I don't want to go to battle with anyone. I was able to forgive certain people that I had real grievances and resentments against. So it brought spiritual connection and healing to you. For sure. For years. For years.

Yeah. Yeah. It was, and there might have been some psychological addiction to keep going back into that dramatic space. But I met my wife doing psychedelics. Like we were at a weekend, not ayahuasca, but another kind of experience. NyQuil? It was a NyQuil.

Yeah. Yeah. And. Drink a bottle of that. Ooh. Yeah. You'll see things. I don't knock you on your ass.

Yeah. But I ended up, I wrote a book about it that I sold that I ended up not publishing because I, I just felt like, you know that thing like don't write a spiritual memoir too soon? Like I felt like there was a lot of ego in it. And I also, I was like, I'm not just this guy on TV. I do psychedelics in the jungle. Yeah. You know, like I really wanted to prove something. Yeah.

And so I let that go. Yeah. But I started doing it in 2007. And I was, you know, it was before it really invaded the consciousness. And I, and I was protective of it and thought, oh, people who write about it, they've only done two ceremonies. They don't know what they're talking about. Like, there was a lot of ego wrapped up in it for me. But now I just, I feel really grateful that I, I don't know.

You end up seeing things that feel biblical, you know, you feel like, oh, I get with. What's the most biblical thing you saw? I, this is going to sound so crazy. I love it. I had this experience where I was on my back. I was on my stomach, actually. And I was literally on my stomach, but in the vision I was on my stomach. And there was this, I think it was an archangel.

It was some sort of like big mystical being was standing over me. And it took a Torah scroll and it unrolled the Torah scroll and it put it on my back. Whoa. And then my heart sent up. up like a Xerox light, you know, like a Xerox machine. Yeah. And it went and it downloaded the scrolls into my heart. And then it took all these like esoteric books, like all these different sacred books.

I don't know what they were. Yeah. But it just kept putting them on my back. Like you're a copy machine. Yeah, yeah. And my heart would go. And then the archangel pulled down its pants. No.

It sat on your back with its buttocks and had another. But it was incredibly. it was powerful and startling. That's amazing. Yeah. And I just, I don't know if I carry that information in my heart. I hope I do. Yeah.

But it was, it was so beautiful. What an incredible metaphor of drinking in divine wisdom. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, I, I've been to all sorts of spaces with it. Sometimes you just, you do a ceremony. You're like, oh, I'm drinking too much coffee.

I got a, you know what I mean? Like, you get like a real world insight. Yeah. Yeah. And other times you're like in some sort of astral place. Other times you're in like a service. serpent-y kind of darker realm. Did you have some bad trips?

I never had anything that left me there. Like by the end, I was always resolved. I remember there was one night where I got trapped in my brain. It was really scary. I was like, it was like my brain was a maze. And everywhere I went was like a locked door or a dead end. And I couldn't get out of my brain. Kind of an OCD experience.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, oh, this is like psychosis. Like I'm just trapped in the ego. And then I thought about someone that I have a very complicated relationship with. And I saw them as a young person in their childhood home really scared because they came from like a really hard background. And my heart kind of opened to them. And I felt this wave of like forgiveness. And then I felt myself pulled out of the maze of my brain.

and I was lifted up into whatever. So I was I was pardoned or released because of like forgiving. Wow. Wow. That's cool. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. I just think we tend to go too far with things. And no matter what the movement is, it will be co-opted by people that don't really have an interest in the deeper message.

You know what I'm saying? Like I think, and you and I have disagreed about this in the past, But I think psychedelics are a wonderful tool to spiritual awakening. Shall we disagree about that in the present as well? You couldn't even wait for me to finish this point? I'm just kidding. This actually might be kind of on your side for every person that is taking psychedelics and having some sort of self-realization, even if it's not a full self-realization,

there might be seven people that just really love listening to Tool. You know what I'm saying? and that's fine. I'm not even mad at that, but when I look at the 60s, I see it getting a little off the leash and getting co-opted by, you know what I'm saying?

Like you call a tantra, but you're just really horny. You know what I'm saying? Sure. Or like you call it a spiritual retreat, but you just really love not having a job. Like the lines, the lines get blurred. Yeah.

I'm not even joking. I'm saying there are earnest people and there were a lot of them. Yeah. And we found a lot of them in the 60s. But yeah, those things can get caught. My mom is still a hippie and lives in a cabin by a river. And my son, whose 20 was visiting her.

And then they both said very cheerily the other day, like, she was like, I'm going to teach Walter gardening. And we're going to spend the day gardening. And I was like, yeah, I was like, the hippies were right. Yeah. We should all be gardening. We really should not be scrolling. We should be gardening.

Well, that's true. That was very real time. That was the Greenpeace moment. Yeah. We shouldn't be scrolling. We should be gardening. Yeah. Well, it is all there, isn't it?

The idea of nothing ever really dies. Everything is just repurposed. The cycle is all in the garden for sure. We've got to make our way back to the garden. Great hippie song. But truly, like, God is love, communion with nature, sharing resources. Sure. I mean, you go item by item by item, and the hippies were right.

And according to you, psychedelics, is a great path towards spiritual enlightenment. I would agree with that, but I can see you setting me up. You know, Jesus had a great line about the gardening. But there's two things Jesus said about gardening. I'm not relaxed. I'm not, don't worry. Don't have church PTSD. There's some great stuff in there.

He said, let the weeds grow with the wheat. That's something that is less. quoted about Jesus. What does that mean? It's all in the game. It's like you're not going to get rid of weeds. Christianity has sort of been turned into like, if we can just not swear or smoke or have sex long enough,

God will like us. And Jesus has a much more let the weeds grow with the weed. I mean, that sounds like something the Buddha would say, you know, but there it is in the New Testament. He also says the rain falls on the just and the unjust, which growing up in America, I always thought that meant bad things happen to good people. But you have to remember, you know, we're in the Middle East.

We're talking about rain being a very, very good thing. And a precious thing. A precious thing. So the rain falls on the just and the unjust. It waters both the thorny plants and the roses. And that's God's mercy, God's grace. You could look at it that way as well. Well, look, you got me on a Jesus tear here.

But like one of my... Who better? Who better to be on a Jesus tear? There's a lot of people. Because you were a young evangelical. I do have resting Latter-day Saint face. But my... I like a lot of the things Jesus says,

but one of my favorites, which actually will tie into my defense of psychedelics, is, and I'm going to paraphrase here, because if I told it in the original King James, it would be so boring. But Jesus tells this story. How about the original Aramaic?

I can do it. Okay. Don't tempt me. No, no, nope. That riff, I'm walking away from that riff. He tells a story about a wealthy landowner. You know, if you hear the phrase,

wealthy landowner, you're reading the Bible. And the wealthy landowner hires three guys to work in his fields. And the first one shows up at 9 a.m. and works. Is this a real Bible story? Because it sounds like you're making it up. I'm changing the specifics, but the content is the sign. Okay. Okay. Which is very Semitic of me. Three. No, no, that sounds like I'm being funny. Yeah. In Semitic storytelling, if you're talking to a rich person like you, I would say, I lost a million dollars,

but if I was talking to a regular person, I'd say I lost $100. And that's the literal truth. Now you got me on a... You have to go a little higher. Ray and I lost $100 million. $10 million. It was in the back of my Rivian and it blew up.

I derailed the story, though. Tell me about the landowner and the three people. No, you're an agent of Satan, and you don't want me to tell the story. I understand. It's a little too helpful, a little too bringing in the kingdom for your taste. I understand. I'm the weed among the wheat. Yeah, I like it and you get rain just like me, which is a beautiful flower. Anyway, no, I'm kidding. So the three guys come. I am changing every detail, but the message will be the same. Okay. First guy shows up at nine and he works until 5 p.m. Second guy shows up at noon and works until 5 p.m. Third guy shows up at 4.15 p.m. works until 5 p.m. wealthy landowner comes out, pays each of them the same. Jesus is always telling,

stories like this that are deliberately frustrating. They're infuriating to the ego that would like to earn it. We want to be the person that work from nine to five and gets paid more that is recognized more. But in my interpretation, the lesson of that parable is you can't divide infinity. To tie that into meaning God already loves you maximum. You understand? So there's nothing you can do, which also brings me to psychedelics. And we have, I'm not here to pick a fight with you. I'm just saying you think psychedelics are cheating, I think the idea of you cheating is looking at it very wrong,

meaning God or reality or truth is so madly in love with you. It can't even comprehend cheating or not cheating, doing it properly or doing it improperly, working from 9 to 5 or 4, 15 to 5, or not coming at all because it's already your birthright. You can't become what you already are.

So you can't do it right. and you can't do it wrong. Psychedelics isn't cheating, not doing psychedelics and meditating in a cave isn't doing it better because at the end of the day, the wealthy landowner gives everybody the same amount. Wow.

You've convinced me. Did I really? Let's go. Oh, I like that. Yeah. That just stood out to me I didn't come here hoping to convince you, but I remembered when you did my podcast

the second time that we disagreed on that. Yeah, I mean, I've spoken about it a bunch on the pot. I don't really need to get into it, but I just think that oftentimes psychedelics can be commodified for a consumer audience. And in between time and our hectic schedules, we can pay $1,257 to a shaman at a motel in Costa Rica and get enlightenment over a three-day Memorial Day weekend and be back to our job on a Tuesday morning at 9 a.m. sharp and, and focusing on making even more money. And I just think it kind of misses the point

that psychedelics, when used in an indigenous tradition, are part of a multifaceted plan and program for spiritual enlightenment. They're a part of that. They're not the whole sum of the game. I agree. And it's kind of the Joe Rogafenification of psychedelic. of psychedelic

enlightenment is not cheating, I would say, but there are, there's no shortcuts, I don't think. But there are no long cuts either. Remember, you can't become what you already are. You already are awareness. And that can either be veiled or unveiled, but it can't be true or untrue. You're already that.

What else could you be? You are the I am, you are the knowing. That's done. and if psychedelics reveal it, this lava lamp could reveal it, this conversation could reveal it. It's not really, I really see it as a benevolent booby trap that you're playing on yourself. And that's really something that you would feel that I felt on psychedelics, where I'm like, oh, I did this to find myself. And they say this thing in India. God loves us so much that, and the West were so materialistic.

like God came to the West as a material. You understand? So there are other cultures where it might be more, it looks exactly like the thumbprint of God to me that we love eating stuff and feeling groovy. And God's like, well, guess what, bitch? I'm hiding in there. You know what I mean?

Like that feels exactly... That's where our work is. That feels exactly like how the mystery moves to me. So do you think that maybe I'm mistaken in the sense of like there's a kind of ingrained Protestant work ethic that like one has to be. to work towards some kind of spiritual enlightenment in the same way that one has to work a cornfield. Yes.

And I would say you almost, and not just you, but all of us almost certainly got our notion of God from how our parents were, exclusively. So if you have a drunk, angry dad, you probably have a drunk, angry God. When I went and took like, anytime I think mushrooms and like, you're connected to the universe. Does that mean God? I'm like, I don't know what it means. I don't know what aspirin, how that works. It works the same for everybody.

you know, just because I don't understand. It doesn't mean the telephone, that's not God. Somebody made it. I can't explain it. Mushrooms help too where you can like without ego look at different characters and their faults and their joys and like, oh, one of those characters is me. Like, you know, and I know that character better than anyone's ever known any character. So you're like, you can judge them and like, let me change that.

Kenamine brings about those type, that type of a brain space where you, you, feel like you're processing three different realities at once, but they're happening simultaneously. You're not selecting between, you're not switching between them. They're all happening simultaneously. So I'm hearing a conversation over here that people are having. I'm listening to that conversation. I'm thinking about the future of human consciousness. I'm experiencing, I'm just analyzing the way that I'm feeling in that current moment.

It's all happening synergistically all at once. And so that, so what that led me to believe is like, oh, well, if consciousness, like energy, you know, like, everything is just information and it's in its energy and consciousness is consciousness, but like, it's playing an exercise in a game by like creating separation and all these things and this conflict for as an exercise of consciousness itself, running millions of infinite simulations constantly, just consciousness. And so it's cool that I'm reading that book, but also having those trips at the same time where it's kind of described. So point is, like, perhaps there we will discover some kind of a hidden interconnection. between all human beings, like when we have intuitions or when you say something at the same time, someone's saying something, you know. And then you, what's that?

Well, but that's, okay, now this is trippy because now I know we're at the singularity. Welcome to singularity, everybody. You're quite the psychedelic traveler. You know, I've spoken against psychedelics on this show before. And I truly, because partially, I get a little judgy around it and help me understand. because, number one, I'm sober, so I don't want to do drugs because I've had issues with dependence on drugs. And I do think that a lot of people that are exploring the multiverse through psychedelics

could be exploring mind expansion in meditation and travel and in thought experiments and in dreaming and in the creation of art and are using it as a shortcut. Number one. I've also met a guy who I knew pretty well, who fried his brain on microdosing on acid. And it's too bad. It's like they don't really talk about that, but it does happen.

And people talk about Elon Musk going on his crazy, you know, sledge hammering of Washington, D.C. Because when you're on ketamine or you use it regularly, you kind of feel that you can do anything. There is kind of a, it brings out, your inner narcissist in a way. I wonder to, so help me to understand this because, you know, and Matthew Perry, who I knew, died of a ketamine over a overdose because he was medicating.

It wasn't ketamine. It wasn't ketamine. No, he had a heart condition and it was also an interaction as a drug interaction. But ketamine has never, no one's ever died of ketamine. Ketamine doesn't even shut off your autonomic system. Like if you were to like pass out on ketamine, you have like too much Well, he passed out in the hot tub, but he was self-medicating. And you look at the number of, I forget the number of dosages that he was having. And he was doing it like 12 times a day or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know that particular, but I just know that like whatever he died of, it wasn't ketamine.

It was like it was a drug interaction. And he also had heart problems. So there was like a, there was a confluence of. And he drowned and he was a hot tub. And he was in a hot tub, which also raises your temperature. No, I mean, I understand like it's, it's important to obviously be very. mindful of what you're doing, but like I, I'm in what's called the psychonauts community, psychonautical community. So it's a science-based exploration of psychedelics, psychotropics.

Also, ketamine isn't technically a psychedelic. It's an in, it's what's called it an inward psychedelic or dissociative. So the dissociative aspect of it can be very helpful in therapeutic settings. Sure. Under, you know, monitored dosing and things like that. And I want to say, you know, I want to set that aside that for certain people with certain conditions, And I know people that have used it who have had just staggeringly difficult, depressive episodes and has helped them associate from their depression in a way and help them navigate that. So that's a separate topic. Yes, 100%.

I'd say recreationally, because the circles I travel in, it's almost all fueled by ketamine, I would say. But I will say that it's not alcohol. People don't drink alcohol generally on ketamine. And also, you wouldn't want to drink alcohol in ketamine. I think alcohol is one of the most inefficient, unnecessary substances in the planet. It doesn't do any favors for your intellect. Kills a lot of people. And now with the science that's come out in the last five or 10 years, it's shown just how bad alcohol is in terms of heart disease and cancer and respiratory illness and on and on.

It takes too much. What I enjoy about psychedelics and ketamine and again, like, I never like, I'm never out there going like, guys, everybody do this. I mean, sometimes I joke about that. But like, it's, you know, even when I enter into communities where people are doing ketamine and they're doing it as a party drug, I'm always like bringing it back to what are you feeling? What are you thinking about right now? Have you noticed this? Have you noticed that? Because in the psychonaut community, when you go on a trip, every single trip that you take is an opportunity to learn more about yourself.

And so for me, um, ketamine is useful. And to your point, it's like, you know, you say like meditation, you know, all these. They all lead to the same point. It kind of like to me, everything leads. near-death experience, getting into paragliding or like going into extreme like physical workout transformation. Those all do arrive at a similar place. But you're not putting a chemical into your body. Well, I mean, everything, the thing is like everything.

You're generating the chemical through certain actions, a workout or a meditation, trance state. Yes, but like arguably like environment, food, water, those are all chemicals. We're big chemistry set. So whether it's a chemical, a plant that you're that you're taking, Whether you're drinking coffee, that's a drug, whether you're taking, eating a certain amount of phytonutrients, that reacts. You can argue that it's a type of a drug because it's stimulating certain cellular growth or mechanisms and things like that. Everything is a drug around you. When you're looking at specific things, also human, there's also theories that human consciousness arrived from psychedelics, because psychedelics created the state of the questioning of what is awareness, what is looking at me back in the reflection, so forth, those types of things.

That's possible. But I also think psychedelics in this time period that one of the researchers I'm working with, he's interested in a group synergistic acceleration, so meaning that certain substances like OPECE, which is also another dissociative. It's a very strong dissociative has different effects on group dynamics if people are coming to consensus on something. So if people don't know each other very well, but they want to arrive at a group's consensus and they're using something like 3MC, which is like a cathode. It's a group of drugs known as cathode. So it's 2MC, 3MMC, 4 MMC.

3MC specifically creates an MDMA like experience without taking a huge hit on your serotonin and not in the way that MDMA does. But what it does is it gives you this temporary open, openness, presence of mind, concern and empathy for everyone around you. And it's not, and I think that the thing that I have noticed, and what I was discussing with him, it's like a drug doesn't make you feel that way. The drug reveals your natural way of being.

Like, we all want to be open and not getting in our way, editing things, not saying something because we think it might, that's going to be terrible or someone's going to think badly of me. When you remove those things, and that can come from a vision quest, again, could be a near-death experience. You know, you're like, I'm glad I'm back, Tammy. I want to say this to you.

You can come up with a group consensus without taking a super-power, lab created MMMC for dissociative drug. You can, you don't need it. And you don't need to have, you don't need to have a transcendental experience with ayahuasca or with acid or with mushrooms. You can, you can create that yourself. You can, you can do more work, which a lot of, let me finish. Let me finish.

I know I'm challenging a little bit. Yeah, no, that's good. You can, you know, for me, it's part of this kind of consumerist shortcut. I want a shortcut to transcendence. I want a shortcut to group consensus. Because it's hard to reach a group consensus with bringing a much of strangers in the room and holding hands and looking in each other's eyes and sharing something intimate about yourself and bonding and then deciding what you want.

That's actually harder work than popping a pill. And it's harder work to find God or finding kind of a transcendent God consciousness. through a daily practice, but it's totally possible. And I worry about, you know, we don't know the long-term effects of these drugs on people's brains and brain cells. We just don't. Yeah, no, that's true. But, you know, the lineage of human beings using psychedelic substances, natural psychedelic substances far outweighs us not doing them. It's been prevalent in society, even alcohol.

Right. But it's been prevalent in society as part. of sacred practice. Certainly. It's not done every month. It's not done every week. It's done as part of some kind of sacred transition or ceremony or, you know, event of the stars or what have you.

And in the context of community and community protection and agreed upon kind of community ideals, you know, it's not kind of like, hey, my cousin's got some molly, let's go. You know? Yeah, that's why I'm saying that's, I'm in the psychonaut community. It's exactly what you just described. It's like, it's all about awareness, intent, consciousness, and it's noticing what is happening during the process of any of these trips. It's more of a shamanic journey, but mixed with science.

And so in my experience, again, it's not for everybody. I'm not like saying that it is for everybody, but I will say that rapid escalation of self-understanding for myself. And it's not even like, I need the drug in order to do that. It's like I had these types of thoughts when I was a kid. What I enjoy about the drugs is that they enable me to get into a state where I have more time than the measurement of how time is moving. In essence, like when I play music or I'm improvising, what are the things that I love to do? Like, for instance, I did a gig in Vancouver.

and my friend had some OPECE that there was, you're supposed to take like four is like a very, very high dose and I didn't know at the time, but I took it during my set. And I think, you know, my set was supposed to be an hour and a half. And so I set a timer and I was like, I'm going to take these pills and you guys take the pills too halfway through the set. It's not my normal thing. I don't normally do that. But OPCE was interesting because it's an interesting dissociative. I did it and I got so incredibly high that I had to keep reminding myself that I'm on stage, that I'm performing for people. Interesting thing happened.

I started doing these tribal shamanic beats and these rhythms and then started talking about reality in an interesting way. This was about 700 people. Went an hour over. So I did two and a half hours. Then I had to negotiate getting off the stage. And I was like, okay, I know how to go down. I went downstairs, went up to the green room. I heard people kind of clamoring for an encore.

And I waited because I was like, I'm way too high. I did not plan for this. I'm way too high. Waited. He heard it die down. I was like, waited a little bit longer. I was like, okay, I should probably get, take my, my gear down. Go downstairs, got up on stage, 600 people just in silence in the audience,

waiting for me to get back on stage. I got back on stage and then, I proceeded to do this weird thing that I'd never done before, which is like a real, I just decided to make the tiniest song in the world. So I made like a tiny, super quiet song. And then I had them sing. And so the whole rest of the half an hour was them singing with me over this thing. And that happened.

That's to say that we put ourselves in different states for different reasons, whether it's a philosophy, if we're like learning a philosophy, and we're like, OK, if I think about Taoism in this particular way, or if I practice like, you know, Transcendental Meditation, or whatever the thing that you're using is, they're all self-reflection tools. They're like things that just reveal things about yourself that are innate.

There's is nothing that adds anything to you. If you take a stimulant, yes, you're wired or whatever, and that is something that is affecting you to be wired, but it's something that is innate in your body that is possible to do on its own if you wanted to. If you wanted to get in that state, you could activate that state. But for me, it's like, and I understand your reservations about it. For me, it's like,

I like putting myself in the throes of very difficult things to, like if you're in the throes of a major psychedelic experience, either some people are going to freak out or they're going to be like, oh, fuck, ah, uh, or you figure out tools to be able to find the center, the eye of the hurricane, the place that's quiet inside of that and still maintain. Like I remember being at Burning Man once and we had a performance, with the crew that I was with at this place called Entheon. And it was across the way that Birdyman looks.

It looks kind of like this shape, like a big sea with tons of channels in it, which are all streets and avenues. We had to go across the playa all the way across to this other thing. We were there. We were setting up a major cable was not included in the stuff that we brought over. So they needed someone to go across the playa in the middle of the night to go get this cable, I was high on 2CB and a little bit of LSD. And I was like, I'll do it immediately.

I got into this van, which was an art car that looks like a pirate ship. There is no steering wheel. There's only a vice grip that's like clamped to the center bolt of the steering wheel. And so I had to drive this thing across only at five miles per hour because you can't go faster than five miles per hour on the play. So you're like cruising across. I somehow found our camp. I found the wire.

I got back in the van. There was a white out that happened, huge like dust storm, so I couldn't see. So I had to wait for a little bit, but continue edging forward. And then I found the space again where we were playing. And all that to say, there is something about being so incredibly discombobulated, but still being able to focus and execute things that really gets me off. And that's why I love improvisation.

Improvisation is a drug to me in that way, too. It's like I rarely actually perform on drugs. It's like I like to jam on drugs sometimes. You know, like, because that's interesting because like on a dissociative, it feels like you're, it actually feels like you're listening to the music that's already been recorded as it's being played. So I'll be in that essentially, I'm just like going like, oh, that sounds really good. Wait a minute. I'm playing that.

Oh, I'm making that. Yeah. Or like I'll make a decision to change something and everybody changes to, to, a completely different key. Like, there's things happening that are transmitting that, again, doesn't have to be drugs at all. It's going to happen whether there are drugs present or not. There's a form of communication. But what's interesting to me about drugs is that if you maintain a presence of mind in the midst of something that's so incredibly powerful,

it sharpens one's resolve to the point at which, at least for me, that if someone were to call me and say, Like, you need to perform at, I don't know, red rocks or whatever right now, someone's bailed. I would be like, oh, okay. Just go up on stage and perform. Like, I'm not really thinking about it. I'm not like going, oh, my God, it's red rock. It's like, I don't have that anymore. That doesn't really exist.

Not to be like, I'm impervious. I'll still be like a little nervous. You know, I want to do good. But, but I think like for me, my psychedelic journey. Also, the psychedelic journey is so interesting because like the people involved in like Timothy Leary or like Rick Doblin of MAPS, the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychotic Studies. They're the ones that got the FDA approval for many of the experimental treatments for PTSD using,

you know, Kenamine, using MDMA and using psilocybin. There's a lot of research going into human consciousness and these types of substances accelerate one's understanding of self. As long as it's guided, either by self-interest or by the community, like what you were talking about, like and things like that. It's like, that is what's happening. That's what I try to imbue in party situations. When people are having fun or whatever, I'm always like, hey, but are you thinking about this?

How much did you do? Yeah, probably not good to mix that with this. And what are you doing now? It's like, are you driving? Are you about, you know, like we're taking care of each other. Whereas being in a capitalist system growing up in the system that we grew up in, we're used to like, hey, man, party. Hey, have a schlitz or, you know, like that's, it's a party capitalist mentality.

where I'm trying to bring back a shamanic principle to psychedict party. Shamanic party. Like, be mindful, be joyful, be in celebration and take care of one another and be kind to your body. You know, like, those are things. I don't know. I'm preparing for post-capitalist society, I guess. You have to have seen some fucked up shit with all of these ketamine parties you're going

to. Come on. Like what? Like, you mean like someone freaking out or something like that? Yeah, or passing out or vomiting and emergency room trips. No. Odeased mixing the wrong things? No, no, no, I've gotten lucky.

I've gotten lucky. Most of the people that I hang out with, they're pretty like, you know, they're down with the cause. So pretty chill. I've definitely helped people that were, you know, like, you know, like in a K-hole or something like that, which, by the way, is not a negative thing. It's actually an awesome thing. But it can be interpreted as negative because it seems so disorienting.

You have no sense of self. And that's the point of it. It's to erase the sense of it. self so that you're left with the feeling of what am I if I am not the thing that I'm constantly observing? What am I then? And so that's interesting. But it's easy to talk people out of a K-hole because it only lasts for about 15 minutes and then they're back and they're cogent. And also ketamine only lasts about half-lifes about 30 minutes or 40 minutes. Do you have any kind of a practice that doesn't involve drugs like a meditation practice or contemplative practice at all? No.

No. No, my practice is it's It's whether there's drugs or not drugs, my practice is being aware of what I'm thinking of and what I'm being inspired by. Drugs are really just kind of a thing to just, I don't know, they're just, it's a fun thing to like, oh, this is interesting. This is a chemistry. It's more like scientific to me. But there have been times where I go a few months without any substances. I don't really notice a difference. It's like there's no advantage to me not using drugs or using drugs.

There's drugs that I don't use anymore. I never liked alcohol since high school. So I got rid of that pretty quickly. Isn't there some story about some famous meditator Tibetan monk that they slipped him acid? And he didn't notice? And he didn't notice. I think that that's correct. That sounds about right?

Yeah. Because I think like. Because he's just so aware. He's like, oh, look at how I'm perceiving things differently now. Oh. Yeah. One breath at a time just kind of like noticing. how chemicals are shifting.

Yeah. 100%. I mean, I think all of it is possible in any state. You know, that's the thing. It's like, I don't, I'm state agnostic. I don't believe like, because some of my friends have been like done, you know, A.A. And that's not a healthy system sometimes because, you know, my saying is like,

don't trust a system that doesn't seek to let you go. And I think like some, I've had, well, horror stories of people in AA, but also it's so dogmatic. And I obviously, I'm super happy for people that were like, it was destroying their lives and they've got it under control. And I'm not going to be judgmental about that. But I do see some of the effects that people have told me about of their community, their AA community.

And I'm like, that doesn't sound very, it sounds too stagnant. It's not seeking to let you go to allow yourself to trust yourself in a way that like, I'm surrounded by people that can support my decision to not do this drug, you know. But I don't have to like go into the system that uses like, they've got chips and blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, it's too structured. It's like for me. And I know it works for other people, but I don't like any structure at all.

I just, I believe that you should be constantly working on your relationship to your intuition, your higher self or what I call the observer and the experiencer. But I think for me, A-A is exactly what you were describing before in terms of people coming together with joy and beauty and mutual support. And no one says, like, you can't leave AA. People are like, no, in fact, in fact, it's quite the opposite. If you want to drink, drink. Right, right, right.

Go drink. You know, see what happened the last 17 times you drank. Sure. You can try it again. Yeah. It may end up, you may end up in a worse place. And you get those stories of the people who did leave the program and then they come crawling back in. But for me, I understand that some, and I've heard of some meetings that can get very judgy and very rigid.

They're just at the wrong meeting. It's kind of like going to a church. Right. Oh, this church is judgy and rigid. But you know what? There's other churches that aren't. I guess I'm specifically talking about like sex cult stuff that happen in certain circles. Oh.

In a couple different chapters. Yeah. I want to go to the sex cult a. I know. I knew you were going to say that and I shouldn't have brought it up. And now I'm not going to tell you the name of it. No, I'm for anything that's helpful. My thing is like, I'm glad.

I think like if you are a part of a system that is helping people, I think that that should be a thing that you tell people that's like, we want you to be able to self-govern. We want you to be able to use these tools. And we'll be here if you need to come back to us, which I know is like the thing that A is so far. See, here's why, here's where I differ with you. I believe that systems and organizations can be helpful.

The other side is very organized. The side of darkness, the side that wants to kind of like shut things down, take control, they're incredibly organized. But the resistance is often not organized at all and is not systematized at all. But if you want success, you're going to need a system. It's kind of like those great, you know, it's like when people come together and they live in some kind of cooperative and they're like, we're not going to have any rules, man. And then all of a sudden it's like, hey, he's eating all my brownies that I made for my grandma. And then like, you have to have a community meeting. And then you're like, don't eat the brownies.

And you hang that up on the sign. And you start to kind of generate rules. Kind of like we do need some systematization, I think, especially of the counterculture. Oh, for sure. I think it is, I think it's relatively self-organizing. It needs, it needs, I'm not an anti-system person at all. I just believe that systems should be elective, conscious, and efficient. You know, and I think, like, many systems just add too many complications.

It's like you don't need that. It's like an arbitrary step that's unnecessary. Yeah. What do you think about people doing like ayahuascon seeing the face of God? Is that just a cheap way out? I don't know. But it just changes people's lives. I know a lot of times from the better.

I've read this research. I've looked at a lot of this research as behavioral scientists. Do tell our audience is very interested in this question. Sure. And people ask me this all the time. And as you know, because of the work that I'm doing on meaning, I'm very interested in hemispheric lateralization, that the right side of the brain is the hemisphere of the brain

that your antenna. That's for illumination and consciousness. That's mystery and meaning. That's love is where you experience these things that are the ineffable. Big vision. The numinous. Yeah. That's the right side of your brain.

And there are people who believe that hallucinogenic drugs of various types will give you greater access to these parts of your brain. And if that's true, if that's true, that actually can be a great help. The problem is that the research is very early, and these have been controlled substances, which is one of the reasons that there's not that much research. I mean, for example, I mean, if you could look at something really ordinary like cannabis, which a lot of people use, there's very little research on cannabis because it was a controlled substance. And so we're doing the world's largest human experiment in real time by making it legal every place.

And let's see what happens. Let's just see what happens. We did the same thing with smartphones. I stuck a little microcomputer in everyone's pocket and said, let's see what happens. Unlimited porn, unlimited social media. I know. And so with hallucinogens, there hasn't been very much research on it.

And so people were relying a lot on people's real-time experiences that they're having with. And some people have very positive experiences and some people don't. And what worries me about hallucinogens is if you have a propensity toward any psychosis, there is some work that suggests that it might actually provoke psychosis in people. And so what I tell people is I'm not against it, but you might want to wait. You might want to wait another couple of years until we know more. So for example, I wouldn't dare because I have a lot of psychosis in my family. I have a lot of mental illness in my family.

And psychosis, that cannabis is bad for that. Cannabis is dangerous if you have any psychosis in your family as well. Especially if you're under 25. Yeah, exactly. when your brain is highly plastic. And so watch and wait is what I would suggest. I don't think that it's a panacea. And I do know that there are safe ways

to open up the right hemisphere of your brain that are more traditional, which is a lot of what I talk about in the new work. If you're an atheist or if you're whatever, and you have no experience of that universal force, that an invisible field of energy that has an intelligence that exists beyond our senses, if you're unaware of it, it doesn't exist for you.

So you will be a materialist, But have one experience, have one arousal, one brainstorm, one moment of connection, one illumination. Which you don't need drugs to do. You don't need drugs to do. I mean, our fMRI studies show, without a doubt, that first of all, if you don't expect anything, the unexpected will happen. That's number one, we can say for sure. Number two is when you have a mystical, transcendental experience, according to our fMRIs, you'll look like you're on psilocybin. You will look like you are on.

If you can achieve those states and you don't need. a chemical call to be put into your body. Look, we did this, we were looking at, we were looking at 63 different diseases, 63 different diseases. And we were, we were seeing that in all 63 diseases at the end of seven days, there was a dramatic change in fatigue and pain levels, independent if you had cancer, tinnitus, PTSD, anxiety, didn't matter. That at the end of seven days, whatever your health condition was with one intervention,

there was a dramatic change in fatigue and dramatic change in pain levels. So we did a study where we isolated the blood plasma of these meditators at the end of seven days. And 100% of the people at the end of seven days had a dramatic increase in undogenous opiates. What is that? Those are the very natural pain relievers that make you feel euphoria and diminish pain. We had one particular family of endogenous opiates called dinorphins. The concentration in the plasma of those advanced meditators was so great. We had to dilute the substance to be able to measure it.

I mean, it was just that concentrated. So the person's making their own pharmacy of anti-pane relievers. We can all make our own pharmacies. Our own pharmacy of antidepressants. Own pharmacy of immune function that suppresses COVID. their own pharmacy of natural immune function or anticarcinogenic chemicals. The body is in the innate intelligence of the body can actually do it. And we've just done studies on intention.

Put an intention to do it and you actually see 100% of the people do it. Like anybody, you could eat meat, not eat meat. You could believe in Jesus, not believe in Jesus. You could be, you know, you could be wealthy, you could be poor. Obes or fit. Doesn't matter. Nobody's so special to be. excluded. So again, why is the data so important? Why is all of this important? Because I think

people innately know this to be the truth. I think we innately know it. I think we just forgot it, right? And so what happens when none of the conventional or unconventional therapies are working for a person and they have a cancer or whatever? And they're left with this. And the only belief that they have is in themselves. And you can't believe in yourself without believing in possibility. You can't believe in possibility without believing in yourself. And now the belief that they could heal has to be installed. And many people, I interview them backstage, I say, why did you do your meditations three times a day? And they said, I was not doing my meditations three times a day to heal. I just started disbelieving again. I started doubting. And I had to

get back and change my state and start believing again. And I think if you keep doing that, You believe, you behave, you become. I think that's kind of how it works. That's good. Let me repeat that. Believe, behave, become. I like that. Because all of this that you're talking about is starting with the thought.

It's just starting with a single thought. And maybe a volition, a will to say, I want to change. And then I change my thinking. And then it changes feeling. And then that changes an autonomic response. And then I bring the meditation into my daily life. It's practical. Yeah.

Super practical. But it starts with such a specific, doable little thing. And then all of these miraculous healings and changes you're talking about, they're really just starting with some self-belief thoughts, some really simple things. It's an experiment. It's an experiment. If I change, if I change will my life change. That's really the experiment.

And as I said earlier, anybody who has a change, a really fundamental change, they've really changed. they will see life differently. They will no longer become conscious of the same thing. The healing stuff aside, putting all that aside, and that's great and important and wonderful. Small part of our work, by the way. But changing lives through changing self-belief can be profound. Now, I have a friend named Maynard,

and he really, really struggles with procrastination. He's got his own business. It's pretty successful. It's pretty stressful. A lot is on his shoulders. He really struggles with procrastination. He's a procrastination every day. And he spends way too much time on his phone, thumbing through Instagram and doing fantasy football and playing little games.

And he knows he's doing it wrong. And he really wants to put more focus on his, like he won't even like, he'll procrastinate even just sending out an invoice to get paid. So he won't get paid because he'll procrastinate that. And he's really stuck around this. And I've been trying to just help them offer some perspective. We talk, we pray together. Like, so for Maynard, what do you got for my friend Maynard? Well, I think an addiction is something that you think you can't stop.

Or knowing something is not good for you. Right. And you do it anyway. Okay. So how is that an addiction? Well, like you could know alcohol is not good for you. You can know that video gaming is not good for you. Isn't the unit scrolling is not going to...

Yeah, porn. And none of that's good for you, but you can't... You do it anyway. You know it, but you rationalize, I'm going to keep making the same choice. Well, crossing the river of change from the old self to the new self, the moment you decide to not procrastinate, the moment you decide to not scroll,

the moment you decide to not whatever. And sometimes it takes hitting bottom to get to the place where you'll be like, fine, I fucking do it. I'll do anything to get out of this. So you may lose a relationship. You may lose, you get fired. You lose your health. You lose your job.

That's when people, when they're in crisis, that's the moment they could actually see themselves for the first time because they don't, nothing's making this feeling go away. But you don't have to head bottom to make the change. That's my message. My message is why wait for that, right? You can learn and change in a state of pain and suffering. You can learn and change instead of joy and inspiration. The only reason that you actually change at that point is because the moment you no longer feel like yourself, you create metacognition. Like when you're inside the jar, you can't read the label.

Now you can go, oh, what a jerk I was. Like, oh, my God, what a waste of time. Well, how mean was I? Oh, my God. I was only hurting myself judging that person. Oh, my God. The amount of anger I felt was killing me. Like, I don't want to do that any longer.

So for a person who truly wants to change, just know that the moment you decide to make a different choice is going to feel uncomfortable. And the hardest part about change is not making the same choice as you did the day before. And the moment you do that, you're leaving the known and you're stepping into the unknown, and now the brain gets really disturbed by that because it's an anticipation machine. It likes to predict the next moment, right? So then the moment the person gets uncomfortable, the body, which has been conditioned chemically, says, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second, I'm the mind, not you. And the body starts sending thoughts to the brain like, oh, come on, start tomorrow.

And you believe in that thought, you make the same choice, you do the same thing, you create the same experience, you feel the same feeling, and you're back to the known again, and the person's gone nowhere. So what we discovered is going from the old self to the new self, is that your body literally is a community of 70 trillion cells that's spying on your brain. That's basically what it is. And if you were to sit there right now, Rain, and I said to you, I want you to fake standing up 10 times, but one time I want you to stand up.

And we were measuring orthostatic pressure or blood volume, blood pressure. before you even made the conscious choice when it was your body already knew because it's got to squirt out a certain amount of adrenaline to keep the same volume of blood going to your brain. So your body is very precognitive. Okay, so what does that have to do with your friend? Everything, because most people are sitting on the couch

with the remote control, the big screen TV, they got their iPad on their lap or their tablet. They got their phone over here. They got their computer over here. They got their beer and their peanuts here. And they go, I think I'm going to change tomorrow. Now, the body is the servant to the mind.

That kind of decision has no effect on the body. That thought never makes it past the brainstant. It's theoretical. It's hypothetical, right? But what we discovered is when a person makes a decision to change with such firm intention that the amplitude of that choice carries a level of energy that causes their body to respond to their mind, that the choice that they make in that moment becomes an experience in time

that they will never forget. They will say to you, Rain, I knew exactly where I was, the time of day it was, what I was doing, what I made up my mind to change. And the stronger, the emotion you feel when you make up your mind to change, the more you remember the choice. You're branding that choice neurologically in your brain.

And that's giving your body a taste, a sampling of the future emotionally. And that kind of aligns the body. And that kind of aligns the body to that feeling. Now, the person who searches for that same intensity every day will change. See, we don't do meditations in our work. We don't pray to have our prayers answer. We get up as if they already are.

Like there's a kind of an absolute state. Why? Because when you feel a different emotion and you've regulated that emotional change, you won't need anything outside you. Like that person doesn't want to leave the familiar emotional state. until there is crisis and then they have to, right? So change your emotional state by thought alone. Why? Because if you have an event in your life that's traumatic,

the stronger the emotion you feel from that trauma, the more altered you are inside of you, the more the brain freezes a frame and takes a snapshot, and that's called the long-term memory. So we remember the events in our life that have high emotional quotients. All right. And that emotion then that's connected to that past experience says, all men are this way,

money is the root of all evil, and my ex is this way, whatever. You draw a conclusion about that experience. How are you going to change that biologically? You've got to make a choice with a level of amplitude that's greater than the trauma. The Soul Boom Podcast. Subscribe now on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever else you get your stupid podcasts.