Sounds Like A Cult - Culty Bonus: Nobody Should Believe Me

Episode Date: September 4, 2024

Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii sweet culties!!! Thank you SO much for your patience as your cult leaders get their little duckies in a row for the next season of Sounds Like A Cult. We will be back SOONER THAN YOU THINK. Team SLAC has been toiling away at the new season, which is truly our cultiest yet—indeed, we are going there this time—and that may even mean some new cult mothers in the mix (!!!!!) idk idk 👀 Anyway, in the meantime, we wanted to introduce you to a podcast we sincerely hope you'll love. Those who enjoyed our "The Cult of Munchausen by Proxy" episode are likely already familiar with Nobody Should Be Believe Me, hosted by Andrea Dunlop, whose Season 4 just aired. Here's the first episode of Andrea's new season to fill your ear holes as you await Sounds Like A Cult's imminent return 🛸 Keep up with us on IG @soundslikeacultpod  Welcome to Season 4 of Nobody Should Believe Me! This season we are following the story of Jordyn Hope as they unravel the secrets of their childhood. After revelations that they were abused as a child, Jo bravely returns to their small, deeply religious hometown to attempt to unravel their many lingering questions about their upbringing. Was their abuse a secret? If not, why didn’t anyone help them? Jo connects with her first grade teacher and childhood best friend as they begin their search for answers. Andrea travels with Jo, hoping to help her friend find healing, and to see what the future might look like for the survivors in her own life. 

I am so excited to tell you culties about June's Journey, a free-to-play hidden object mobile game where a shadowy figure is spreading devious gossip and revealing dark secrets. Join the intrigue and immerse yourself in the vibrant 1920s community filled with untold mysteries and hidden truths. Mark the seventh anniversary with exclusive themed events, haunting milestones, and tantalizing giveaways. You can engage in special activities all month long that promise thrilling adventures and dark twists.

One of my favorite things about June's Journey is not only that it is a fun and challenging game, but it's beautiful to look at. You can celebrate in style with masquerade-themed events and decorations. My favorite time to play June's Journey is when I am in between work tasks and I need a beautiful chef's kiss of the game to relax to, to stimulate my mind to. It's perfect

for that! Dive into the mystery and celebrate June's Journey's seventh anniversary. Download it for free on iOS and Android today and gear up for thrilling new adventures. Hello, culties! It is your host Amanda Montell here. I hope you all are doing all right. I wanted to hop on the mic today to let you know that we are still on this brief hiatus from Sounds Like a Cult, really trying to make the most of it.

We've been banking so many incredible episodes for you, the truly juiciest, cultiest episodes ever in Sounds Like a Cult history. I can't wait for you to see,iciest cultiest episodes ever in Sounds Like a Cult History. I can't wait for you to see or I guess hear the surprises we have in store for you when the show is back in just a couple of weeks. For example, as a teaser just last night, Reese, my podcast coordinator that many of you will recognize from such episodes as the Cult of Twin Flames, the Cult of Tradwives, and the Cult of the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders.

Reese and I just last night attended a launch party for the new Hulu reality show, The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, about the little community of Mormon mom talkers who were exposed for being swingers, bringing on a whole scandal. This was one of the most absurd events I have ever attended in my entire life. So get excited. That's a little teaser for an episode to come.

But in the meantime, while you wait for Sounds Like a Cult's return, I wanted to do a little feed drop here and share with you a podcast that I really, really admire. The podcast is called Nobody Should Believe Me, and it just aired its fourth season. This is a really brilliant, at times hard to listen to, but totally riveting investigative podcast about Munchausen by Proxy, and it's created and hosted by Andrea Dunlop, who's a brilliant author and advocate for Munchausen by Proxy. If you listened to our Cult of Munchausen by proxy episode, Andrea was my guest. Since then she's also become a dear friend. I just support her and wish her the most

success in all that she does. She also has a new book coming out. So I wanted to share with you the premiere episode of her season four in hopes that you will go check out her whole entire show. So here is that episode and I will catch you very, very soon for the next season of Sounds Like a Cult. And in the meantime, stay culty, but not too culty. Before we begin, a quick warning that in this show we discuss child abuse and this content may be difficult for some listeners.

If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to munchausensupport.com to connect with professionals who can help. Hi, Mom. It's Jo. I hope you can hear me. I wish you could see me. I'm so sorry. I wish you called me. In the spring of 2022, Jordan Hope made the nearly nine hour drive from Missouri to Minnesota to say goodbye to their mother, who will be calling Donna. Donna's health had been declining

and it had taken a sharp turn when she'd lapsed into a coma. Joe's sister called and said, I think this is it. I just want to see you one more time. Well, I see you, I want you to see me. I forgive you. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that you were hurting so much. I forgive you. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that you were hurting so much. I forgive you, okay?

I forgive you. It had been a long time since Joe had spoken to their mother, but even after years of near estrangement, Joe still wanted to be by their mother's side at the end. And I love you so much. I just had to have boundaries of all to take care of myself too, you know. But I never stopped thinking about you, wondering how you were, hoping you'd get better. My life is really good, Mom.

Can you hear me in there? Can you feel me? I'm mad at you for not saying goodbye. I'm looking very you for not saying goodbye. Because I'm very nice of you. I think after everything, you owe me a goodbye. To say that Joe and Donna have a complicated relationship is an understatement.

Pulling away from Donna as an adult has been one of many steps that Joe has taken to attempt to save themselves from the lasting psychological damage of their mother's abuse. And yet, to be here at their mom's side was also a step, because even the truth about their mom, as bad as it was, did not extinguish the love. But like everything with Donna, even her death was not what it seemed. I'm Andrea Dunlop. Welcome to season four of Nobody Should Believe Me. This season,

we will be following Jordan and Hope as they unravel the many mysteries of their childhood. If you are a longtime listener of our show, you'll likely recognize Joe, short for Jordan, as they have done several previous interviews with us. Joe is not only a friend of the show, they are my dear friend in real life. We serve together on the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children's Munchausen by Proxy committee. And Joe and I also work together for Munchausen Support, which is the only nonprofit organization in the country dedicated to helping Munchausen by Proxy survivors and families. And I think getting to know Joe so well over the past few years and getting to hear so

much of their story has really given me a sense of what's possible. And I feel like often these stories, when we're hearing them in the news, they drop off after the court case and you never find out what becomes of the child at the center of it. And this is really that story of what human beings who have been through horrible things are able to become as adults. And of the healing that can happen. I think Joe's story can tell us a lot about the process of healing and the process of building a life after you've been through something unimaginable.

A note about Joe at the top, they are trans and non-binary. Joe interchanges what pronouns they use but prefers they, them pronouns, so that's what we'll use. But just a heads up that some of our interview subjects use she her pronouns when discussing their relationship to Joe or when they're talking about Joe's childhood. Yeah, you'll see we'll be like driving like 60 and then it'll say 35 for like two seconds and then it'll be back to like 60. We begin our story in Joe's hometown of Hutchinson, Minnesota.

What's the vibe of a Minnesota small town? Because they have like small towns, they're kind of the same everywhere, but then they're like, okay, just church. I mean, once you see Hutchinson, at least it used to be like... On a chilly February day where it is mercifully not dumping snow, Joe and I, along with my producer Mariah, drive out to Hutchinson, a small rural town outside Minneapolis. The streets are lined with all of these huge trees that are barren now in the winter, but you can imagine them making this beautiful leafy canopy in the warmer months, and there

are rows and rows of small craftsman houses,, as Joe said, a lot of churches. Joe has come along on this journey with us, bravely, to do something that I feel like you mostly see people doing in movies. Returning to their hometown to try to get to the bottom of their often confusing childhood memories. To return, literally in Joe's case, to the scene of the crime. I lived in Hutchinson my whole life, which is like a very small town in Minnesota. Like the next nearest town was probably like 30 minutes away. So very secluded and isolated just as a town itself.

What are some of your earliest memories? That's a really hard question, I feel like, to answer. I feel like a lot of memories, I just were repressed for so long and I didn't even really get until seeing my records. But some of my earliest memories would be being in the hospital sick a lot, missing school, not being able to like go out and play with friends. But then also I have a lot of memories of playing with friends and a lot of memories of getting McDonald's with my mom. We all misremember our childhoods to one degree or another, but Jo's is a different story

because their history is so obscured by their mother's manipulations, her interconnected webs of deceit not only around Jo's health but around every facet of their lives together. The idea of unraveling it all is beyond daunting. So we've come to round up some witnesses. This is, yeah, this is very rural. Yep. This is it, corn fields. Oh yeah, when I was little,

we would like play hide and seek and like hide like in the cornfields. Which I think is like dangerous. But we weren't going that deep so. This is like the main street. You hit everything in hutch down this street. Okay. You guys have a Target. Look at that. We do have a Target. We, that that was there. It wasn't as popular as Walmart though. So. What is Menards? Menards? Menards? I really... please slip that in. Okay, so obviously I did not grow up in the Midwest. The drive into Hutchinson is beautiful but pretty sparse. There are all these lakes glittering under the winter sun and lots of empty cornfields.

Very few signs of life. This really is the middle of nowhere. I went to this church for a while for youth group as a kid. And then one day they said, today we're gonna speak in tongues. And I said, I think I won't go here anymore. I went to that church across the street. I was gonna say another church.

Not exaggerating, as we drove around, there was a church on almost every corner. Oh yeah, we love a church. Another church. Joe lived in Hutchinson for their entire childhood. And driving through the place, it looks like a sweet, nice place to raise kids, honestly. And you know, we have a pretty strong archetype of what places like this are supposed to mean in America. Small towns are supposed to be the places

where people look out for one another. Or, alternatively, some see these as places that are not so tolerant of outsiders. Our first stop is the elementary school that Jo went to as a kid. We pull up outside a few minutes early to a very chaotic and familiar scene as school is letting out and a long line of SUVs and sedans snakes around the block with parents waiting to pick up their kids.

I shouldn't generalize, but a lot of people who live here grow up and stay here. They marry each other and you know, then, you know what I mean? So a lot of our teachers are homegrown, that's why I call them homegrown Hutchinson people. So that was, I felt like the town was kind, I don't wanna rip on Hutchinson, but I felt like it was a little clicky.

Hey, how are you? I haven't seen you in a long time. Oh. Nice to see you. Hi, I'm Jen. Hi, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you, sir.

How are you? Can I give you a hug? Yes, of course. Of course you can, Joe. Jen Becker, or Mrs. Becker, as Joe remembers her, was then and is still a first grade teacher in Hutchinson. The two hadn't spoken in well over a decade, but their reunion was warm.

I'm sure it looks very, very different. I always felt so safe. I remember as a kid, my memory was like, kid brains are interesting. So I was like, Mrs. Becker is really pretty. And that was like the biggest thing I remembered about you. Oh, well that's nice.

She's so pretty and she's so nice. Well, like I don't know if you remember anything about me that you thought. I remember you were, you were quiet and you always looked super tired. I remember that. I was like a little worried about you. So I brought you, we had like a we

have it it's called something different now but we had a team that where I would I don't bring you to it but I bring your your case to them to talk about you because I was worried about that you seem so tired and it was like a little bit harder for you to concentrate sometimes. I don't remember academically anything, but I remember you being a very sweet, sweet kid. I remember you were kind of sickly. Your mom was very super mom, kind of. Did she like run the gymnastics program here?

Yes. I remember that. I remember her saying you were going to be a superstar gymnast. But she would come in here and kind of be mama. She'd act like mama to everybody in our room, like the mom of the year kind of thing. That's what I remember about her. And I remember her always being concerned because she said you were like ill or sick or they were trying to figure out what was wrong or

whatever. She was more of the, I'm like such a role model for everybody kind of thing. And I'm not putting your mom down. Tried to make herself look really like a super mom. I always had like a little bit of a uncomfortable feeling about it, but there was never anything concrete that I could do. I was like probably in my second, third year of teaching. So, you know, I'm just like doubting myself. Of course.

So I was just kind of like, well, it doesn't feel right. What Mrs. Becker says about her memories of Joe's mom sounds extremely familiar to me. In interviewing people about these cases, they frequently describe a bad feeling that they just can't quite put their finger on. Mom seems involved, loving even, but something is just off. So I feel like a lot of memories, I just were repressed for so long and I didn't even really get until seeing my records. One of Joe's earliest memories really belies the distance

between their mother as they experienced her and how she tried to present herself to the outside world. Jo doesn't remember a time when they weren't sick, and their mom was often pushing them into the spotlight in one way or another. One of these memories is being a state finalist in Minnesota's American Petite Princess Pageant at age four. I have very faint memories of it. I'm pretty positive my church sponsored me and paid for it.

At the time I was supposedly really sick, so I'm not really sure. It's a little odd to have someone that's super sick all of a sudden wearing this really pretty dress and putting on a show for people. But that was kind of, I think, the theme of my life was one day I was dying and the next day I was doing back walkovers across the grass. So it definitely was fitting. My mom, I remember I, I guess I like grabbed the curling iron, like right before we went on and burned my hand pretty bad. And I remember crying and screaming because I was in pain and it hurt and my mom was like, you need to stop, you need to go out there and perform.

So that's one of my first memories I would say of where it was the opposite where my mom didn't want me to be sick where like me being in pain was Not convenient and it was not the time for it because it was gonna actually take attention away from her and so I had to just act like I wasn't in pain and go and perform and do do my thing and I Ended up getting runner-up at the pageant because my mom, there was a girl that was too shy and wasn't going to go out and my mom ended up helping her so

she went out and then she won and I still have a little bit of a grudge because I was supposed to get to go to Disney World but since I got runner up, I didn't get to go to Disney World. And my mom ended up, ironically, winning Best Mom award. And that, I remember, like she always made a big deal of it, of course, it was like a really big thing because it proved that she was this great, loving, caring mom. In the beauty pageant, they had a best mom category. Yeah, so sometimes I really do think back, and I'm like, was that a real thing? Is that what the award really said?

Because that is kind of like an interesting, what kind of beauty pageant was this? I don't know. So who's to say? That's what I remember. And I remember my mom making a big deal about it. And I remember me being really annoyed because I didn't get to go to Disney World and she didn't care because she got Best Mom Award.

In Joe's memory, their mom successfully fooled everyone as thoroughly as she'd fooled those pageant judges. And it's only right now, in the midst of their conversation with Mrs. Becker, that Joe realizes maybe their mother's abuse wasn't so well hidden after all. Did you know before just now that Jen had ever made a report about you? No, I had no idea.

I didn't know, ooh, I'm gonna need a loan motion. I don't think I knew that anybody in school knew. I don't think I knew that anybody in school knew. My interpretation, not in first or second grade or third or even any of that, but probably like fourth grade on my interpretation was that everyone thought that I was faking illnesses and that I just wanted attention

and I was just this like kind of bad, rough around the edges kid. I didn't yeah I didn't it didn't seem like anybody had any any idea. Mm-hmm. Well it was just like I said like a I don't know what it was like a feeling. I just with your mom it just didn't feel right. It just felt forced, I guess. I don't know what the word would be. You were probably one of my very first kids that I did a report on. Like I said, I was young.

I was in my fourth year of teaching or whatever. You doubt yourself all the time and I see things and I have inklings about things but I can't really, like legally what can I do besides do a report or whatever. I can't go to your house and like take you out of the house. Yeah I think we talk about that so much. Everything you're speaking to. I know you were like, I don't know that I have much to say, but like, literally this has been one of the most helpful

conversations I think I've had. Well, that's good. Yeah, I think that there's so much, everything you're speaking to, speaks to the systemic issues. And I think whether or not I was like, one of your first reports, or even if I had been your hundredth,

like you said, there's only so much that you could, and the reality is like, you are still a reason that I'm sitting here today. You were that safe enough person in my life at that time that helped me survive that year of my life. Joe and Mrs. Becker share goodbyes and we walk back out into the empty hallways of the elementary school.

They're full of adorable wonky artwork and kid-sized chairs and sinks. How was that for you? It was so good. Had no idea about the reports. That is like, I feel like it makes me mad all over again. Like so many people knew. So many people knew. Yeah.

It's weird. I think it's easier thinking that nobody knew. Thinking that like I just hit it really well versus being like no, everybody knew and still chose to treat you poorly. I mean, not like the specific people necessarily, but yeah. Yeah. For Jo, remembering their childhood can feel like putting together a puzzle that's constantly rearranging itself. Jo thought their mom had everyone fooled, in part because plenty of other adults seemed to trust her.

Tell us about Donna just as a person. Yeah, she, when I was little, was I would say pretty well respected. Like I said, she taught Sunday school. So at my church, which I think she just kind of did things wherever I was gonna be, She also had a daycare. She had kids coming over to our house all the time that she supposedly cared for and things like that.

Also growing up, weirdly, we always had people living with us. One of my sister's friends pretty much grew up with us for a very long time, was living at our home. Some of my cousins stayed with us for a really long time, which very odd now when I look back at it, but she always seemed to be around kids, taking care of people.

When I was pretty young, she started coaching gymnastics, which I was a part of. And she did that, I mean, until I was a teenager. So she did that for a very long time. And a lot of people really, like I said, respected her, really liked her. And then on like the flip side, you know, I remember riding in the car with her to the liquor store

and her having me sit in the car and I would sit there and when people would be walking out of the liquor store, I'd roll my window down and I'd yell, Jesus loves you. And then I'd roll my window back up and I'd duck down because I was kind of scared. But I remember that was this fun little game that I would play right outside the liquor store to all the people. I had no idea what they were doing or who they were or what was going on.

I thought they're just running in for errands. I didn't really understand what alcohol even was at that point. I can't really remember many people not liking her or being afraid of her or not trusting their kids around her when I was really little. That changed a lot as I got older. One of the people who spent a lot of time around Joe and their mom as a kid was Joe's friend, Bree. Yeah, now I'm really excited to see her. Yeah, me and Bree were like best friends

pretty much like eighth grade through senior year. We were like inseparable. People would always joke that we were like dating because we were just always, always together. Yeah, I spent a lot of time at her house. She spent a lot of time at my house. We pull up to a house with a red barn next to it and a frozen lake behind it.

Walking into the house feels like a Minnesota Pinterest board come to life. There are little signs everywhere with funny sayings, many involving puns, and there's a cookbook on display with hot dish recipes. There's kid paraphernalia everywhere and a very sweet, sleepy dog who curls up in his bed after giving Joe, Mariah, and me a thorough inspection. Hello! Hello! Hi, newcomers.

Hi. Oh my God. She has just so loved you. Yeah, oh, smell, smell, smell, smell. Brie and Joe met as kids at their church confirmation, but didn't really become friends until middle school. Brie would eventually go on to marry her high school sweetheart, and she still lives in Hutchinson. Just tell us a little bit about Hutch from your perspective.

Um, small town, uh, lots of drama. Watching Joe with Bri is incredibly sweet because, like we all do around people we grew up with, they morph back into the teenagers they once were as they giggle and reminisce. Yeah, everybody knew everybody. Everybody knew everybody's business. What was that? Where did you hang out? What would you do? What was the draw?

I just go to like Walmart. That's what I said. I was like Walmart. That's the place. Walmart. That was like, yeah, that was the draw? I just go to like Walmart. That's what I said, I was like Walmart. That's the place you were going out. Walmart, that was like, yeah, that was the place. Yeah, literally just the stupidest things, I don't know. It's just the only thing to do.

Small town shit, I don't know. We're driving around. I was just gonna say, we drove around for hours. Doing literally nothing. Literally nothing. But we would always be in the car with the boys, and they're just whipping shities all over. Yes, donuts.

Yes, I knew that was a Midwestern thing. Whipping shities. Yeah, donuts. Yeah, we'd sit on Main Street in the Genesis parking lot, just do stupid stuff. Bre knew Donna well because in addition to being her best friend's mom, she was also their cheerleading coach.

Can we all talk a little bit more about cheer, what was cheerleading like? Did y'all do competitions? Was it just for gains and stuff? Just competition, not in school. Hutch banned, or not banned, but they got rid of cheer like right before we, well you were in it. Yeah, I started cheer in sixth grade and did it.

And then in eighth grade or something, I want to say, we had this coach that we like went to our homecoming game and at like right before the game started, our coach like walked out on us because supposedly we were bullying her daughter which didn't happen it was so weird but so they like literally she like walked out on us and we weren't able to cheer the homecoming game which at the time felt like a big deal a big deal we had like our routine like all these things and there was like a cop

like standing there like all these it was like very dramatic, you know, Hutch drama. And so then- Hutch is dramatic. So then my mom was like, oh, I can be the coach. And that's when it all went downhill there. And then that is where, so then my mom started coaching and it became an all-star team. So we no longer did anything at the school.

Nothing through the school, yeah. Cause you guys were like the Hutch Tigers. Yeah. What was- were like the Hutch Tigers. Yeah. What was... I don't know. We were the Midwest All Stars. Yeah, when we became competition, yes.

Our colors were teal and zebra. We were like, when we would do competitions, we'd be like the only one. So we'd win, which is cool and all, but we'd be competing against nobody. Like, I don't know, we just sucked? Or if there was just like, we were in such a small range? I feel like my mom had to have purposely put us in a thing.

So that we could always win. Yes, cause she would be like, you guys got number one and did this big deal. Yes, and we'd always get number one. And then we'd drop every single stunt and do so horribly. I feel like we were not very professional competition cheerleaders. It was like the Bad News Bears were cheerleaders.

It's just so embarrassing. So embarrassing. You guys have a very big trophy in this picture. Yeah, we got first. We're winners. We're really good. We're winners. We're really proud of ourselves.

We're gonna have to look up what the brackets were because it was probably something like town size, team size, and you could find a way to then like. Oh, she found a way. She found a way. So was Donna being drunk at practice something you remember from that time? Oh, 100%. Brie pulls up a photo and these uniforms are exactly as spectacular as they sound.

Brie and Joe clearly had a lot of fun together growing up, but Brie glimpsed the dark side of Joe's home life too. What are your memories of what Jo's house was like? We would mostly stay in her room or do stuff in the kitchen but then for the most part we'd be outside. Like they had like a playground. I know we were a little bit old for that but whatever. And then really just like go to the neighbor's house and like walk around and yeah. Do you remember the townhouse? Yeah, yeah. We were there.

We were like hung out in the house a lot but at the same time not really. We tried to avoid her mom at all costs. Oh, you're like unlocking. Do you remember? Oh my god. Do you remember when we were like washing dishes and my mom was like drunk but we were like so afraid of her so then I made the song do you remember the song? I don't remember the song but I remember the song. It was like washing dishes with Bree it's just my friend and me doing this something very carefully

because if I wake up my mom she'll drop the phone then I'll have to run until I see the bright sun. If she wakes up, she'll look and say sup. Oh my gosh. And then something, something bad would happen. Yeah. Don't wake up, Mom. Don't wake up, Mom. She was usually drunk in the living room and that's where she like stayed the whole time

that we'd, I'd be over. She never did anything. So you didn't, sounds like you didn't really have any interactions with her. Yes and no. Like, I was very cordial with her. I think she liked me and we would like, I could go in and talk and like she'd be my mom, like whatever. But I never really had like a whole lot of interaction. I really just went over there just to hang out. Yeah, she was really nice to you. Like she really loved you. I really just went over there just to hang out. Yeah, she was really nice to you. She really loved you. I was just always there.

Jo, do you remember, was there a difference with your mom's behavior when there were other people there versus when it was just you and her? I mean, definitely. I think that was always... I mean, I think Brie probably saw... I saw some. She got really mad sometimes where it was like, you shouldn't be here. Mm-hmm. But like around adult, she was a lot nicer. Mm-hmm. And normal, she tried to pretend to be normal.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, she would definitely play like the like, I'm so happy and loving and kind. Yes, I'm such a good mom. I'm such a good mom. There were other signs that something was amiss in Joe's house. But I definitely remember the kitchen meds. There's so many. Just like bottles of pills everywhere? Yeah. All over the counter and like in the cupboards where like cups were supposed to be.

Not normal. Not normal at all. At that time, was your mom claiming that you and or her had a specific chronic illness? Um, I mean, I had severe asthma. Yeah, oh my gosh, yeah. I forgot about that. Cause she would always like at cheer, like, would be like, Joe, you can't run, or you can't do this because you have asthma.

And I'd be like, I'm fine. I'm fine, yeah. And then she'd be like, use your inhaler. And I'd be like, no, I'm not gonna, I just have to breathe. Yes. Because I thought I was invincible. I thought I was beating as less.

Because I thought I had it, but I didn't. No. I didn't. I remember my mom had a clear like a Gatorade bottle. All the time. That had vodka in it. Yep. And it would just be sitting like on the back thing and she would always go and just take a drink and then she had these like these like breath strips or something that she would like take after that. Oh yeah, like the cleat, not clear things, but yeah, the little strips. Yeah, these weird little, you like put it on your tongue.

The water bottle or whatever she would put it in was like everywhere. Everywhere. She'd bring that everywhere. She always had that Gatorade bottle. And I remember one time as a kid, I was like, mom, can I have a drink of water? And she was like, no, don't touch that.

And I was like so confused, cause I was like, I don't, okay. Yeah, like why? Joe thought their mom was better at disguising her many issues than she actually was. But the fact that she was pretty much constantly intoxicated appears to have been an open secret. I remember like the last like year or two of being friends, it seemed like more abuse was going on. I know I talked to my mom about it and was like, we need to get her out of there, blah, blah, blah.

And I know at one point I was over and we were like, we need to record your mom. So being drunk and stuff and the things she would say to her. But I guess that was more towards the end. When you say towards the end, like around what age? Like 16. I don't know when we, like, stopped being as close. Probably after I started dating Max. Yeah.

I lost. Yeah, that was it. I lost touch with a lot of people. Yeah. Probably like 16. 15, 16. Did you, do you feel like you knew like at the time that like not all of it was real

or that it like seemed dramatized? Yeah, like, but I would have never said anything. Cause like, I didn't know anything. Yeah, I feel like when it came out, that it was all a lie. I was like, yeah, I knew that, obviously. How did you find out about? Online, like when you did the story, like the TV. The Doctors?

Yes, that's when I was like, oh, okay, yeah. That makes sense. Joe first went public with their story on social media prior to making an appearance on the CBS TV show, The Doctors. We will get into that in a later episode, but this was the first time many people in Jo's life heard about the abuse that they had endured. So you weren't shocked?

It made things kind of fall into place for you? Yeah, definitely. None of it shocked me. Yeah. None of it shocked my mom either, which is sad because I feel like my mom didn't really like even know the full extent of it. But like she knew mom. And yeah.

Did you know anything about Chelsenbiproxy before watching that? Nope. I don't think I've ever even heard of it before, before that. So yeah. What did it feel like to kind of have that confirmation that you were like, oh, my intuition was kind of correct? It felt really shitty. I feel like I wish that I had known more then. Obviously, I was a teenager, so there's not much I could have done. But I felt really bad because I feel

like there were signs and we knew things. And I feel like we were trying to like help, but I feel bad that there was no way to help really. That you were a part of it for so long. I was a part of watching it for so long. Yeah, shitty. What does that feel like to you, Jill? Yeah.

It's really a lot. I think it's like... I mean, you were like my literal best friend for so long. We were like sisters for a long time. So long. Yes. And I think like you definitely knew probably the most out of literally anyone in my entire life. And I didn't even know, right?

So it's just like, and like you said, yeah, I remember trying to do, plotting of how you could get me out of the house. We knew that your mom was terrible and we knew she was not a fit mother. And she shouldn't, yeah. But I still thought I was sick. Exactly, yes.

Like I thought a lot of it was real. And at least safe for the most part. Like she was still your mom, so she had your best interest in mind. I'm hesitant to judge the adults surrounding Jo too harshly, but what the hell? This lady was just constantly drunk at cheer practice and no one intervened? You know, the comfort of living in a small town, which by the way I also do, although

it's certainly not one as isolated as Hutchinson, is that people are supposed to look out for each other. Why didn't someone do something about Donna? something about Donna. ["Sickness"] As is often the case with these offenders, Donna was skilled at eliciting sympathy. Your mom was broken too, though. She would always like be sick. Sick or like injuring her, injuring.

Do you remember that with her? Was it like kind of every time you had an interaction with her, was there like a, oh, I'm just my back or my thing or my back? Something was like, yeah, just like, it was normal. Yeah. It was there. Yeah.

Joe, just to the like question of how many meds were on hand, were you taking all of those meds? Were you taking them sporadically? Was she getting them prescribed for you and then hoarding them? Do you have a sense of what was going on there? I think it was pretty sporadic. There were, I feel like, there were, I feel like hundreds of meds, but... Probably hoarding, not taking, like, the full doses.

Yeah. Just hoarding them. Yeah, hoarding them. Lots of, like, antibiotics or, like, things like that. Yeah, I remember, like, one time my mom, like, you could see, like, when you were sitting in the living room, there was, like, a mirror that kind of, like, shined, like, you could see into the kitchen, and my mom, like, overdosed on meds,

like, with vodka, like, in the kitchen. And I couldn't call the cops because I couldn't do that to her, so I, like, told my neighbors, and they, like, had to call the cops and I had to stay at their house for the night because my mom was just crying about how she didn't want to live and how horrible she was.

Usually more about how horrible I was. I was gonna say, I feel like a lot of it was you were a horrible child to her. She didn't. I was the reason she drank. Did she, do you say that because Joe reported that to you or did you actually hear her mom say that about you? Her telling me stories and seeing it firsthand.

It wasn't very often that she like would talk like that to her because she put up a front, but like. It would slip. Get her drunk enough. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Definitely knew she was not a fan of you and that you ruined her. I ruined her.

Yeah. Which to me back then was like, how? You were the best. Like, I don't understand. She's like, does everything for you. Everything she does is because she wants to please you. What Bree says about Joe here really hits me, because Joe is the best. They're always looking out for everyone around them, and Joe and I know a lot of people in

common. Everyone loves them now. It's not a surprise to me to hear that everyone actually loved Joe growing up. But before this trip, I know that Joe believed the opposite. Their mom told them over and over again that they were a bad kid. So they thought that everyone else must think so too. That's the influence that our parents have on us.

The things they tell us about ourselves, for better or worse, bury themselves pretty deep. So Joe, I'm really interested in the way that you just phrased that, where you said, I didn't call the police because I couldn't do that to her. Why did you think, because I think calling 911 would be like the most normal response. Like, what did you, did you feel that was somehow a betrayal of your mom? Yeah, I mean, it goes to what you just said. Like, what did you, did you feel that was somehow a betrayal of your mom? Yeah, I mean, it goes to what you just said, like, I, I like really thought I was like the problem, like I really, it's like at times like, yeah, I would like look for the alcohol,

but it was because I wanted, I thought if I could like take the alcohol from her, then she would like stop drinking and be nicer. And like, I always just thought that like, yeah, I was the problem. I was why she drank. I mean, she said if I wasn't alive, she would stop drinking. So like, I don't know what else I was supposed to believe. And yeah, she would always just say

that I was like this bad kid. And even with everything going on, like all I wanted was her to love me, and like approve of me, for me to be enough. There were times that when the cops were called, several times throughout my life because of her drinking, and they, because like they would have to take her to the hospital and whatever to like detox and stuff. And my extended family would come over like that day.

And then they would have me show them where all the pills and all the alcohol were. And then they would throw all of it out, not in the garbage outside, cause we knew that she would like dive in the dumpster. So we'd have to like bring it to someone else's house. But then that's when they would like have me go stay at like my uncle's house or something,

because they knew like when my mom got home from the hospital, like she would literally kill me. Because it would be my fault, even though like I was just doing what I was asked to do by my family. And like I always felt really weird about it all, because I didn't understand understand the alcohol or the pills or any of that sort of stuff.

But I wanted her to feel better, so I would help. But I knew I would get in so much trouble. Joe's mom, Donna, was clearly struggling with addiction and with her own mental health issues. But it doesn't excuse her actions. Someone should have protected Joe and held Donna accountable. And yet, when adults in Joe's life did try to help, they met with dead ends. And those times when Joe attempted to reach out for help on their own, it often backfired. D.J. My mom taught Sunday school and I grew up in a Missouri Senate Lutheran

taught Sunday school and I grew up in a Missouri Senate Lutheran church. And once she stopped teaching Sunday school, we stopped going to church. But I started going to church with my neighbors, and I had gone a little bit with some other people before this, but I started going with my neighbors to an evangelical free church. And I really liked it there, but I guess maybe because that was when I was a teenager, I was probably 14-ish. And so that's when I started to kind of break away from my mom a little bit. And I think she felt threatened by that. High school is the first time I ever told anyone anything that was happening in my home. Prior to that, when I started getting more involved with church, where I started, I opened up to my neighbors

and my youth leader for Youth for Christ. He was the first person I ever told anything that was happening. But all these people then that started to be in my life that were involved in church started to think I was making up illnesses and stuff. So then they started to use the Bible against me. And they would always use this quote, do you want to be well, then pick up your mat and walk. And they would always use that as like, it was my choice to be

healthy. And I would always do these testimonies at church and like through these little groups I was in where I would talk about how sinful I was and how bad I was and how God saved me. And it wasn't until getting out of that state, like literally getting out of Minnesota, that I was able to like really wrestle with religion and really deconstructing religion. but I had to do so much and I still struggle with this concept of like, I'm evil and bad. Because one, I learned that that was just like my core beliefs because of what was going on in my home and how I was like taking in how people were reacting to me. But then two, I was told, you know, the Bible says you're born sinful and like you can only like be good if Jesus is in your heart.

And so I just always had all these messages that were just thrown at me that I was the bad one. You can tell even from a quick drive through town that in terms of places in Hutchinson that one might go to for support, the choices were going to be the church or the church across the street. And Joe quickly realized any help those institutions might

offer came with big strings attached. I kept thinking as we were driving around this town about that country song that came out last year, Try That in a Small Town by G.C. Naldeen. Thought about how this song sounded to some people like a patriotic love letter to tight-knit communities where people take care of each other. And it sounded to others like a sinister warning to people who might try and stand up for themselves

in a place where they're not welcome. And the truth is, we saw this duality in the story that we covered in season two. It was, in part, I believe, the tight-knit nature of the community surrounding Alyssa Webern, the victim in that case, that finally brought her abuser to justice and landed Alyssa ultimately in a safe and loving home. And you would hope that people in a place where everyone knows each other would really look out for one another. But maybe it can make situations like Joe's worse.

Maybe it's easier to report on a person you suspect is abusing their child if you're not going to see that person every single day at the grocery store for the rest of your life. Maybe insularity breeds its own kind of silence. Or maybe a town of any size is home life from the person who lived it with them. Because mom's favorite phrase growing up is, I brought you into this world, I can take you out.

Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our senior producer and editor is Mariah Gossett. Greta Stromquist is our associate producer. And administrative support from Nola Carmouche. Music provided by Johnny Nicholson and Joel Schubach. With additional music and sounds from Sound Snap. Additional music by Jason Shaw from Free Music Archive. Thanks to Cadence3 for recording support.

Special thanks this week to Jen Becker, Brianna Garrity, and the many people of Hutchinson who welcomed us into their homes and workplaces. If you'd like to support the show, the best way to do that is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon, where you can get all episodes early and ad-free, along with extended cuts and deleted scenes from this season, as well as two exclusive bonus episodes every month. If monetary support is not an option, rating and reviewing the show wherever you listen helps a great deal.

And if there's someone you feel needs to hear this show, please do share it. Word of mouth is so important for independent podcasts. For more, you can now to hear this show, please do share it. Word of Mouth is so important for independent podcasts. For more, you can now find us on YouTube, where we have all of our episodes as well as bonus video content. I am so excited to tell you culties about June's Journey, a free-to-play hidden object mobile game where a shadowy figure is spreading devious gossip and revealing dark secrets. Join the intrigue and immerse yourself in the vibrant 1920s community filled with untold

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