Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of 12-Step Programs

Episode Date: May 31, 2022

Anonymity, prayers, sitting in a circle and sharing your deepest secrets and traumas, an intimate mentor program… is it a cult or a 12-step program? This week, Isa and Amanda are joined by comedian JF Harris to discuss groups like AA, NA, and OA whose ritualistic approach to addiction recovery is definitely culty… but is it a LYL, a WYB, or a GTFO? In honor of Sounds Like A Cult's one-year anniversary, we're hosting our very first ever live show! It's virtual, meaning anyone from anywhere in the world can attend. On June 15th at 9 pm ET, join Isa and Amanda to ask questions, play games, hear us talk about never-before-discussed cults, and dive into alllllll other things culty. Details and ticket info can be found at momenthouse.com/soundslikeacult Helix is offering up to 200 dollars off all mattress orders AND two free pillows for our listeners at HelixSleep.com/cult   For listeners of the show, Calm is offering an exclusive offer of 40% off a Calm Premium subscription at Calm.com/cult Go to HelloFresh.com/cult16 and use code cult16 for up to 16 free meals AND 3 free gifts!

If you're listening to this episode in May or June of 2022, you can still get tickets to our first ever virtual live show, celebrating Sounds Like a Cult one year anniversary. It's going to be a ton of fun and attendees will have access to buy products from our very first merch collection. Very cute stuff in there. Get info and tickets at momenthouse.com slash sounds like a cult. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow.

I'm Amanda Montell, author of Cultish the Language of Fanaticism. I'm Issa Medina and I'm a comedian. Every week on our show we discuss a different fanatical fringe group from the zeitgeist from essential oil lovers to theater kids to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? To join our cult and see culty memes and behind-the-scenes pics follow us on Instagram at SoundsLikeACultPod. I'm on Instagram at Issa Medina, I-S-A-A-M-U-D-I-M-A-A, and I'm on Instagram at Amanda underscore Montell

and feel free to check us out on YouTube where you can watch our beautiful show or hit us up on Patreon at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult where episodes are available at free. Today we are here with a very special guest to talk about the cult of 12-step programs, comedian J.F. Harris. What's up? Hello everybody, how are you? I was just pointing at the camera and then I realized this is a audio medium so yeah. There is a video medium and we encourage people to engage with that.

Yeah, get in our YouTube cult. We're almost at a thousand subscribers. We surpassed it. Really? Yeah. Congratulations. Our audio numbers are much better for those listening. Unless you want to keep listening because it's like niche, then our audio numbers are tiny. Oh yeah, no, no, no. This is a very underground, like you're getting in on this early. I want everyone to know that they drove here in, they both had a Bentley. Yeah. That they towed in a Rolls Royce. Yeah.

Would you mind introducing yourself to our listeners? Hello, I am stand-up comedian J.F. Harris. I'm a stand-up comic, you may have seen me on the Late Late Show with James Gordon or Bill Burrs, The Ringers on Comedy Central. I just put out an hour special with all things comedy, the network that your guys podcast is on. Yeah, and it's really funny. You guys should watch it. It's so good. I met you for the first time here. At ATC. At ATC. At the studio. And we were brainstorming how we could get you on the pod and the

first thing that you said was Cult of 12 Step programs. Yeah. And I gasped because we've been trying to find a guest for this topic, but it's hard because you can't just go up to people and be like, are you an addict? Yeah. Are you sober? Are you sober? You seem like you should be. You look like you, you look like you should be. It looks like you need help, like in many ways. But you brought it up. Yeah, because I'm very openly sober. I talk about it in my comedy and stuff like that and I've been sober for a long time

and often people assume that 12 Step is a cult of some form, shape or matter. Well, the funny thing is that the entire thesis for my book, Cultish, which is about the language of cults from Scientology all the way to so I was like, I'll buy it wherever books are sold or whatever. Got the pitch, the elevator pitch is tight. Thanks so much. But it was entirely inspired by a conversation I had with a very, very good friend of mine who had started going to AA. And this was like my dear, dear friend who I could communicate with without

words whatsoever. And all of a sudden she was speaking in that very distinctive AA vernacular with the buzzwords and the acronyms. Yeah. And it just seemed incredibly culty. It was obviously working for good because it was keeping her sober. But I was like, I have to write a book about the way that cult language works for good and for ill. It was all inspired by AA. That's awesome. Did she like not tell you like you kind of had to figure it out yourself when she started going to? She told me after she had been going for

many months. And this was my best friend. But you know, addiction can be quite secretive. Yeah. When I got sober, most people were like you? But like the part they didn't see was like all the drinking by myself. Yeah. I would go out and drink with friends or other comedians. And then just I was the guy who was always keeping everyone up until six in the morning. Yeah. Yeah. We know that guy. Yeah. I mean, we all can probably think back to college or to our adulthood to someone who is probably an addict. I didn't realize until like recently with like personal experiences that like

it really is like addiction or at least like alcoholism specifically is really a disease. You can see how there are different people who drink the same, but it affects some people differently. Wildly different. Yeah. Yeah. Like I'm the kind of drunk that if I can go a day or two without drinking or whatever, but once I have one drink, I never know how many I'm going to have. Yeah. It wasn't uncommon for me to just be like let's party all night. Yeah. Right. Obviously, there are so many culty rituals and power dynamics in 12 step programs like the serenity prayer to.

Yeah. Well, a lot of it came from a group in we'll say for Alcoholics Anonymous specifically that came from a group called the Oxford group, which is a group that like formed tangentially. No, that's not how you say. Tangentially. Tangentially. Yeah. She's a word girl. Yeah. It's like a religious group. And then they kind of broke up because they didn't like having a bunch of foul mouthed cigarette smoking troublemakers around. That sounds like the reason a band would break up. They like broke up the band. This guy seemed too cool. We got to go do

our nerd thing over here. Yeah. Yeah. Do they talk about the origins of the 12 step programs that you may or may not be in? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll say I'm in a 12 step program. I'm not going to say which one, but I know for Alcoholics Anonymous, they do. Yeah. It's all in the like the book. It's a big book of Alcoholics Anonymous. They have all that stuff in there. So there's different 12 step programs. So if you have a, if you have a problem with food, there's OA. If you have a problem with sex and love, there's SLA. If you have a problem with drugs, there's Narcotics Anonymous, NA. And then if you have problems with alcohol,

there's Alcoholics Anonymous. Let's talk like right off the bat about what you think are some of the culty aspects of 12 step programs, either in good ways or in bad ways. Well, I will say in good ways, it gives you a structure and a form of living that helps you learn how to be an adult and like handle adult things in adult ways. Before I was in a 12 step, I was definitely like an active alcoholic and child. Yeah. They taught me how to like grow up and be a person who could like face life on life's terms and not like hide and duck from everything through like booze. Yeah. That's culty in a good way.

In a good way. Yeah. You know, they give you like. Structure. Structure. Yeah. And like you see, you get to meet other people who've been through hard things and you learn a way of living of like keeping your side of the street clean or like getting into prayer and meditation, like things like that, which some people might say is culty, but also at the same time, you don't have to believe in anything. Like that same thing we keep saying of like the good version of cults is like, because it kind of tells you how to live. It takes that weight off your shoulders because you're like, okay, oh, these are the steps I need to follow and like kind of takes your mind off

going in all different directions. Well, yeah, because life is profoundly chaotic and there really is no structure out of the gate. And so when a group can provide you with rituals, like, oh, you get a chip every milestone of sobriety that you need. And like, this is what we say at the beginning of every meeting, like that can provide some solace. Yeah. In the beginning of when young people or new people are getting sober, despite the age, you're supposed to do like a 90 and 90. What does that mean? 90 meetings in 90 days. Oh, wow. Yeah, meeting every day for the first 90 days. Stand up. Yeah, it's like you have to go to a mic like every day. Yeah, it's like if you want it. And you know, they say things like,

how often were you drinking and using? It's like, well, that's probably how often you should be going to meetings because you're replacing a bad habit with a good habit. Replacing like your alcoholic barfly friends with your new sober friends. That makes sense. That's like why people who leave Colts often like end up in like another type of Colt. Colt hopping. Yeah, I can see that for sure. Yeah, I got a Peloton. You're doing exactly. So I have an iPad with the Peloton app strapped to a spin bike. I got sober December 25th, 2012. I'm a Christmas baby. What do you say? I'm a Christmas baby. Had a rough Christmas Eve.

Rebirth. You're using the language of rebirth. Yeah, I was born again on Jesus's birthday. Yeah, I'm in a 12 step. I got a sponsor. I got three sponsors. I like do the thing. I work. I do stuff on like the board level. Do you feel like being involved helps you kind of like stay? So very 100%. So like it's because of doing work in like a 12 step program that like I volunteer pretty regularly where I work at a food kitchen. Like I do stuff that's outside of myself because I learned through the program that the best way to get outside of yourself is by helping other people. Yeah, that's so true. Yeah, which is so true. Yeah, so I that's what I do, you know. And so in the 12 step programs, it's a triangle for some of them. And it's the three sides of the

triangle stand for unity service recovery. And they each are a different part. And like you're supposed to do all three parts because like a table can't stand with two legs. Oh my God. See, these are the things that I'm talking about. Like it really is this incredibly robust, built out religion 12 step program. Yeah, because it's except it's not a religion because it's not a religious program. It's a spiritual program. Even says that in the book. The whole point is it's like, oh, you don't believe in God? Good. Most of us don't either. Or it's like, you don't believe in this. It's like everything's the program is meant to be suggestive only. Sure. And I guess like on this podcast, we interrogate like what is a cult? What is a religion even? Can a

religion be secular actually? Yeah, like what is the difference between a culture of social click cult or religion? Yeah. And I think the idea of saying it's more of a culture makes a little it's a spiritual program that's like goes along like the cultural. How do you define that spiritual program? In like 12 step programs, steps one, two and three are about quitting drinking and drugging and the rest are about how to live your life in like a more spiritual way. Yeah. And I kind of don't think too much about it. I just think to myself like, okay, I don't believe in like God, God, but there's like, here's one of those acronyms you're going to love. Good orderly direction. Yes. For God. So I just think about like, if there was like a higher power of spiritual

being, like what best version of myself would that want me to be? And then I like good orderly direction just kind of walk in that version. Yeah, that's so funny. I'm sorry. I think that's so funny because you're like, well, if there was a God, but like you're, but like you're acting like there is, but like you believe that there isn't. So like you're allowing, I don't know. Here's the thing. It doesn't matter if you believe in God, you just got to believe that you're not God. Okay. Is that a phrase or did you coin that? I think I've heard other people say that or maybe I said it, but like, and ultimately that's true because God is a woman. So you're definitely not God. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, I think God would probably be a

they. I think it would be gender, gender, God is such a quantum physics. I'm very much a science person. I grew up with science. So it's like, it's just all cells in atoms. We're all connected. Yeah. So whatever that is, is God. And physics can get really spiritual. I mean, like Einstein's theory of space time. It's like we're all of time, existent ones. Like that's pretty spiritual. I can't even look at the stars for more than 15 minutes. Without having a panic. Yeah. So I've been to my fair share of AA meetings, just like crashing with my friend. And I love going because that's called an open meeting. An open meeting. Yeah. You don't, they're not always open. They're not always open. Sometimes they're close. Yeah. Yeah. So I go to

open meetings. And I love going because it just feels like going to a moth story slam. It's like the best fucking stories go down. It's mostly laughing. Really? Yeah. If you're going to fun meetings, I mean, I've been to like meetings in sad places. But if you're in, in like a New York or an LA or something like that, it's like you're going to meet a lot of people like a lot of time who are like pretty chill and pretty fun. Do you think people in LA are performative in AA meetings? I've seen people be super, I've seen people in every city or in the, because I've gone to meetings, 12 set meetings all over like the country. Yeah. And you have your, what's it called when you sort of like tell your story? Your pitch. Your pitch. Yeah. Or your lead. Like if, so like

the way a meeting would work is for anyone who's never been to one and is just curious, you go into a meeting, there'll be a bunch of people either in a circle or sitting down 12 set programs. There's no like leader. There's no centralized organization. It's not a centralized organization. It's just, uh, it's run by the people who put it together. And then there's like suggested guidelines. But even though that's what I was going to say is one of the least culty things about it. I feel like that there is no hierarchy. There's no hierarchy. There's no financial, uh, it's like entrance cost. There's zero. We need you more than we need your money. Yeah. Uh, there's no money. Instead of like soul cycle where there are obviously like high

costs to attend each class and you have to like sign up for a membership or whatever. It reminds me more of this one workout that I researched a little bit for my book, but that ended up on the cutting room floor called the November project. Have you heard of that? No. It sounds culty. Yeah. It's like, but it's free early morning boot camps that just like volunteers put on. Oh, I may have heard about this. Well, what's funny is that there's almost something like even cultier about that in a way. Yeah. In fact, they're like, it's free. You have to show up at six AM while it's still dark. There are 12 step meetings at all times of day and night, aren't there? Yeah. 24 seven. I mean, if we want it, we could hop on one on

Zoom right now, probably in anywhere in the world in like London. Should I join a 12 step program just because I like love friends and you know, I feel like I often think how I feel bad for people who aren't in them because they don't have like a program for a way to live. Like, yeah, because like whenever you're like, oh, my life this that you go into a meeting, you hear about somebody who has real problems happening in their life. Like parents are sick or they're like taking care of like a sick kid or like, you know, they got, you know, losing their house, lost their job. You're just like, oh, my shit's fine. Dude, this is what I'm saying about the moth. Like I remember this one meeting in New York at this huge group where a guy got up there

and told a story better than anything I've heard on any true crime podcast about like some people he killed with his bare hands like 40 years ago. I'm not kidding. And he was just talking about like all this crime and hardship. And I was like, oh, wait, the man murdered someone and he was not arrested. He was he spent 20 years in jail, including like many years after solitary confinement. This was like an old dude like I wish hell yeah, hell yeah, my people. Is that you? I'm Irish. I'm New York guy, but also just like, that's a drug. You know what I mean? Like I'm like a yeah, totally. Yeah, like, you know, it's like, I'm friends with people who are heroin addicts who have like done terrible shit, but they've all turned their life around and are

like of service to other people. And like so cool. I love people who turn their life around. I really do. I, you know, sort of like Rubberneck and a lot of this language and a lot of these rituals and we could dive into those and talk about all at the same time that I sort of like marvel with wide eyes at the liturgy. I say a lot of a jargon because it's so catchy and it really does have profound meaning in it. It works if you work it. It works if you work it. Let go and let God. Yeah. The reason I think I would like love an AA meeting is because it's all these people who are like taking action on something. And I like love the idea of- It's a program of action. Exactly. And like I used to want to work in policy and because I wanted to like work in human rights.

Oh my god, I always forget this about her. But then I was like LOL, like human rights law is fake and policy is really hard to enact. And so I went into something that I could like have actual like, you know, from start to finish. Dick jokes. Yeah. I could write a joke from start to finish. Sometimes comedy can be activism, right? Yeah, totally. I got a six minute chunk on abortion right now that I've been telling for a couple of months and it feels extra important right now. Yeah. I think it's so great that like these people are like taking action on something. Just the fact that they're in the meeting is already like a step in the right direction. I respect it. Yeah. You can feel like shit. You walk into one of those about halfway through.

Yeah. Your shoulders drop. You feel a little bit better. Yeah. You get a little perspective. You stop doing the mental gymnastics in your head about whatever bullshit you were thinking about. And then you're just kind of there and present. And then you listen for the next 30 minutes of other people talking and maybe raise your hand and share something. What's going on with you? Something what the speaker or leader was talking about. I feel like though I would be bad at it because the same way that when I went vegan for two weeks, I told everyone, I would like go to an A meeting and I would leave and I'd be like, I'm an A. Yeah. I would like scream it from the mountain top. Which is part of why you don't say that you're an Alcoholics Anonymous. You would

say that you're in a 12 step program or something like that. So that if you start drinking and get in two weeks, people can go, well, AA clearly doesn't work because I went and went out in like two weeks. Went out. That's another piece of terminology. When you go out, it means you're not in AA anymore. You're drinking. You're off the wagon. But that's pretty interesting. I actually didn't know that that was part of the anonymity that the program doesn't want outsiders to think it doesn't work. I think that's part of it. That's very interesting. And it's also because no one person is a spokesperson for 12 step programs because no one's in charge. So like when I'm speaking now, I'm speaking from my own experience of being in it, but I do not speak in any way,

shape, and form for any 12 step program. Can you talk a little bit more about the 12 steps and what was your first impression of them? First impression is like you just hear people talking about them because you're not doing them yet. So someone would be like, I'm on step four and I got to do this thing and it's scary. And you're just like, what is that stuff? But the one that everyone kind of knows about is like making amends. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, which is like, yeah, seven. Has anyone made amends to you ever? No, and they should. They go in order for a reason. There's a reason that those ones are later on. You like kind of work your way through them. They all seem scary before you do them. And it's just like anything else. Like the sooner you get them

done, once they're done, you're just like, Oh, that was it. Okay, cool. They teach you how to learn how to deal with resentment to keep your side of the street clean to, you know, admit when you're wrong. Look at who you actually are. What are your character defects? What mistakes do you keep making? Like how do you like hope to change to let those things go so you can like move on as a person so you don't drink over those things? It's basically like figuring out like, Oh, these are all the things that I did why I'm an asshole when I drank and these are all my triggers of things that I drink around. So like, I want to work on letting go of those things. Yeah. The way you like phrase it, it really is like teaching someone how to adult almost like it's like it's

almost like cognitive behavioral therapy. Yeah, you know, where you like are learning how to deal with who you are. And the longer you stay sober, the better of a view on yourself. You actually get like an honest view of like, Oh, this is the kind of person I am. Like these are the things that I'm afraid of. Yeah. And most people drink around fear or resentment or anger. For sure. You know, it's interesting that you were saying it reminds you of like just adulting and you're like reminds me of cognitive behavioral therapy or community therapy, crowdsource therapy. We'll talk more about the therapy element later. It reminds me when you just listen to it on the surface of like the promises that Scientology makes. The difference though is that you absolutely

have to abide by Scientology's what they call the bridge to total freedom. That's kind of like their 12 steps. But you don't actually know what the steps are until you get there. I wouldn't be shocked if they took some of that stuff. A lot of cults overlap with recovery programs. The cult my dad was in as a teenager started out as an alternative drug rehabilitation center. Oh, wow. To the Synanon. Scientology has like a like a rehab. Oh, I'm sure. Where they like try to get go there. Anyone listening to this? They try to get people in when they're weak and down. It literally like, I mean, addiction is a great thing to exploit if you want to start a cult. Yeah, 100%. What happens if you don't do all of the 12 steps or you want to question them? Nothing.

That's what I think is like, the more we talk about it, the more I'm like, this is like almost anti cult. Because there's like no, it's like, it's the cultiest. Probably the most culty thing you might occasionally hear in a 12 step meaning is some people say, I feel like they're trying to brainwash me and people say, well, maybe your brain needs washing. Oh, that is culty. That is, we touched a little bit on like, there's no hierarchy. There's no leadership. It's people who are in volunteer positions and they're all elected on a like, on a group level. In a 12 step meeting, there'll be a person who's the chair who like runs the meeting and that person's the chair for six months and then they're voted out and new people are voted in and all that. So

there's a time limit on how often someone can be the chair for every position. Like if you're the person with a coffee commitment, you got that commitment for six months and then you're out. That is so interesting because the next question I was going to ask is if there was like a power dynamic between newcomers and old comers. No, you try to give newcomers like positions as soon as they walk through the door. Like you want to give them responsibility to like give them something to do to give them like self confidence and value in themselves. Do you think that people who have been in the program for longer kind of do it in a way that's like passive aggressive or like, is there ever any like feeling of like I'm better than you?

No, I wouldn't think so because most people will talk about how the newcomers have the most to bring to a meeting because like newcomers will come and they'll talk about the the fucking shit that they just went through to finally get in there or like a lot of people who've been in there a long time or just like laughing and having a good time telling stories and like a newcomer will talk and they'll be like, yeah, I'm happy they shared about that because I need to remember what it was like when I came in so that I don't go back out. Yeah, I'm curious about the sponsor-sponsor dynamic because obviously that is so intimate when someone is sort of like shepherding you through your sobriety. Yeah, you're reading somebody a list of like your character

defects or sexual shit that you regret and stuff like that. Yeah, like can you talk about like what that relationship is like and what would happen if you didn't like your sponsor anymore and you wanted to sort of... Just fire them. Oh, how does that work? I think I'm gonna work with somebody new. Nothing's official, you know, you don't sign a contract. What about for people who are like really socially awkward or like don't like confrontation? Like is there like an established thing in the beginning that everyone tells like, hey, if you don't like your sponsor, like you can just leave them and it's no harm, no foul. Yeah, it's just kind of no rules. I mean, there are suggestions and there are the steps that are like the closest things to rules, but they're not

even rules, they're suggestion. Yeah, have you ever heard... Sorry, we're asking the tough question. I know, I'm just like... I know, you can grill me. I'm just like so curious because I've seen my very close friend have nothing but a positive experience with AA, but I have had some people, a lot of people actually DM us being like, you have to cover this topic because I had this experience in a 12 step. Yeah, then they probably just went to a shitty meeting and I would suggest going to a different meeting. Word. That's true. There were meetings in LA that you couldn't pay me to go to because the people who are in them are fucking nuts. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like you go and everyone's like self-centered and weird and like... Yeah. Like not really working what I

would consider to be like a healthy spiritual program. Yeah. And I don't want anything to do with those people. I go to where I feel like people are grounded, helpful, happy, positive community. Yeah. You know? I feel like it's so important to like remind yourself that these are non-binding meetings of like random people who on an individual level are still going to act individual. Like people. Like people. And sometimes people are toxic. Yeah. And so like... Yeah, especially a bunch of drug addicts and alcoholics. You know what I mean? Not everyone's going to be like... They're a fairy godmother. Yeah. You're not Buddha. You're not, you know, the Dalai Lama. It's like most of us are closer to fucking retired rock stars. You know what I

mean? Yeah. So anyone who tries to make it seem like they are all knowing is probably just someone you have to distance yourself from. You know, they say when you're looking for a sponsor, look for somebody who has what you want. Look at anybody who's like a clean comedian who pretends to be holier than now, but then in their offstage life is a fucking monster. You know what I mean? Like anybody who acts holier than now is like, oh, fuck that person. Yeah. It's a simple program for complicated people. I actually can't tell what would be more culty if 12-step programs had an official leader keeping everything organized and on the books or the setup that exists now where each group is just run by volunteers in a program who are all abiding by its suggestions. I think

that kind of speaks to the larger question of how much order versus freedom do we want in any given group? Like what structure lends itself to the least harmful type of cult? It's just an interesting question that I don't think anyone ever has the perfect answer to. In the beginning, or not even that long ago, addiction was seen not as a disease, it was seen as a moral failing and that's connected to the religious aspect too. It's like you need to just find Jesus. Yeah. And so I think AA emerged to feel like this very real need to treat addicts like they were actual humans who were not profoundly defective. But it's just interesting that 12-step programs are like kind of the only mainstream way to go about addiction. Yeah. Well, there are other things. There's like

smart recovery, which I don't really know much about. And there's like, you know, not all rehabs are 12-step based and stuff like that. There are places you can go and whatever works for you, fucking do it. Like if you need to get sober, get sober, you don't got to go to a 12-step program. I know people who aren't in 12-step and live in pretty good lives and fucking great. It's just, this is what works for me. So I do it. Yeah. It is like inherently religious aspect about confessing. It kind of reminds me of when you like go to church and you, what do you admit to the dude in the box that you did all this stuff? Confession. Yeah, I'm a Catholic. Me too. There's something confessional about going to a meeting and having

to sort of lay bare all of your traumas and misdeeds. But you also don't have to. But you also don't have to. That's the other thing too. You're not required to like participate in any way. Like you don't have to share. You don't have to like talk to anyone else while you're there. You can go and just listen. You don't have to get a sponsor. Literally, the only requirement for membership is the desire to stop doing drugs and drinking. Yeah. There's two things when it comes to the science of it. One early on, there's this dude, it's in the beginning of the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous. There's a letter by this guy, Dr. Silkworth, who basically describes like the genetic predisposition to alcohol. So that I think for a lot of alcoholics is super comforting to know

that he's not a moral failing. I'm not a piece of shit. So like I'm dyslexic and I'm not a piece of shit for being dyslexic. I just have a cognitive brain disorder in the same way that I'm not a piece of shit for being an alcoholic and an addict. We're all pieces of shit for many other reasons. I'm trying to think of mine. I'm perfect. I'm just kidding. I also like love the way that you're going about answering our questions. You're like not defensive at all. You're just like, I feel like if it was... It's not mine to be defensive over. Exactly. Like if it was culty, I feel like you would be getting more like heated, whereas like you're just like chilling being like, well actually this, you can leave whenever you want. Like you can choose a new sponsor. You don't have to do

anything. You can go out and do more research. You can drink whenever and do drugs whenever you want. Yeah. And you're always welcome back, you know, but... It's hilarious because it's like culty and not culty all at the same time. It's structured from a religious program. Yeah. But it's not a religious program. It's a spiritual program. It really is like if cults were good. Like honestly, like that's the vibe that I'm getting. Kind of how I feel about it too. Yeah. There are always going to be people who have a negative experience with any given group, but what would you say? Like if anything are the exit costs of leaving because there's such a profound... Okay, there we go. But then you said that it's possible to stay sober and live a decent life

without being without it. I 100% think it's possible to stay sober and live a life without a 12-step program. I just know a lot of people who drank themselves to death or overdosed on like fentanyl. How does it work if someone is like, oh, I want to leave. Like you guys don't say anything to them. They just... Nobody tells you. They just stop coming. Okay. So you might be like... You still might like throw a text like, hey, haven't seen you in a while. How are you? But people ghost you. They disappear. I've had sponsors who've like went out and I've never heard from them again. And I don't know if they're alive or dead. And that's just how it is. What if someone does tell you like, I'm thinking of leaving? Like is this...

I have a friend who's still sobered, not in the program anymore. He was like, I don't think it's for me. And it's like, cool. Like it's just cool. Like do what you got to do. Like you're not trying to convince them to stay. No, they got to live their life. Yeah. You know, it's not my job to make somebody stay sober. When you look at all of the aspects of 12-step programs, it seems motherfucking culty. But every addict I know is this chill about it. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's not, you know, none of us are in charge of it. Yeah. And it's what works for you and how you work it. How long have you been in a 12-step program? Nine years.

Nine years. So I feel like the longer you've been in it, I feel like the more you've seen. You've seen people come in and out. And so you kind of are indifferent to other people's experiences in that you're like, it's up to everyone. Yeah. And also like my... Like you realize that for everyone, it's their own individual journey inside of it. Well, we've been mentioning throughout all of the fantastic jargon that exists within AA. Yeah, for sure. It's all so catchy. The cultiest phrases in 12-step programs, for me, are the phrases that they use to get you to sort of like just trust the process. Things like, it works if you work it, or when something goes wrong, just like call your sponsor. Or there are phrases like, AA is perfect. People are imperfect. AA

never fails. People fail the program. Honestly, I don't know if I've ever, ever heard those last two. Oh, really? Yeah. I'm sure somebody has said it, you know, but like that's not like anything I ever hear. That's not typical. And also because it's governed by like a border, like no one person, like it's adaptable in Alcoholics Anonymous. I think they're on their like fourth or fifth version of the big book and things like change. Like right now, they're changing their genders in the literature to make it more conformative and inclusive to everybody. I think they're going the they them route and doing more of that kind of stuff. We should all be going that they them route. Yeah. I know. Yeah. Yeah. I hear it's a beautiful drive. Yeah. I would normally

think that phrases are culty if you're trying to keep someone in a cult. Yeah. But I almost feel like the phrases are more innocent. They're so generic that they could really apply to anything. That's literally the coolest thing about them, though, because you because they're like really vague and lofty and emotionally loaded. And so you can just like project whatever you want onto that. You can just kind of why it works. Or you can or you can perceive whatever you want. Also, I read shit tons of like anything that's like self healthy. I love anything self help. You are really in like so many of these live your life to watch your back level cults that we love so much. Yeah. Stoic philosophy all day every day. I love stoicism. Yeah. I'm a huge stoicism guy.

Anyway, there's this book Building Better Habits, maybe. Anyway, in that they do scientific research on why 12 step programs work. And it literally boils down to do you believe this can work for you? And the people who do believe that it can work for them, it works. That's fine with me. I let it. You know what I mean? I don't need to be like question. Like it works. So why the fuck would I fuck with it? Yeah, because you don't care that it's placebo. I don't give a shit what it is. It makes me a better person. I show up for other people. I meditate. I pray. I like do shit. I never would have did before. I'm not out until six in the morning fucking strangers. Yeah. It's so much left up to the individual like you being like I want the help like you choosing to go in

every time. It's like you can't force someone to get sober. Yeah. I actually think it's a lot easier to get someone to keep drinking like our whole society is set up for people in the cult of alcohol, you know, like you drink when you're sad, you drink when you're celebrating, you drink when you're bored, like drinking culture is the actual death cult here if you think about it. This is a culty one. People who stay in the middle of the pack don't get picked up. What does that mean? So if you stay in the center of a 12 step program, you're less likely to fall off the sides and go out and get drunk because you're like involved. Like if you do, if you go to a rehab center and talk to people who are in rehab, if you go to a

mental institution and talk to people or a prison or if you have a commitment where you make the coffee, if you, you know, volunteer at a phone line, you know what I mean? If you sponsor other people. That one is culty because it's kind of getting people to get more involved. 100%. But even though it's better for them. Yeah. And also it's like it teaches you like I was saying earlier how not to be self-centered. Yeah. To me, that's the best thing I've gotten. Yeah. I just keep picturing you being like, and then there's the chip that they put in my arm to track me, but it's no big deal. That only happens after three months. I mean, they don't got the fucking money for that.

Yeah. They're broke. Do you think that you were able to get there because you like had all of those experiences that like led you and now you can be like, well, I had my fun. I do not regret my past or wish to shut the door on it is one of those things. Oh my God. It's truly like Bible versus. Yeah. Where it's like, I don't regret any of that. It gives me the experience to share with other people, to relate to other people who've been through hard shit who like do drugs and drink. Do you think that that's a barrier to entry though? Because like some like to have to have gone through. Like no, I can never crash the car

in my life. I never got a DUI. Yeah. Technically on paper, I'm what some people might consider a low bottom drunk outside of the fact that like I would stay out and drink until four or five in the morning. My friend too got sober fairly young and you could argue that she's not like a real alcoholic, but nobody does argue that. Yeah. If you feel like you're supposed to be there, then you're welcome. Yeah. It doesn't matter. There's no. I need a safe space and if it sounds like 12 step programs are really. We should go. It's actually fun. They actually have one at a place where I go to an open mic also, but it's like also an A. Yeah. I know that place. Yeah. Tropical. Yeah. I actually almost walked in on the meeting. It's because I thought it was an open mic.

It had just been like, oh, you're late. One of the best things of advice is before I got sober, somebody I know, I told him I was thinking about putting drugs and alcohol and he was like, just go to a meeting and you'll know if you're supposed to be there. And I sat down. First person was talking. I was like, oh, I do that. Second person was talking. Third person was talking. I was like, oh, fuck, I'm supposed to be here. It was relieving because I got to learn that there were people like me who had a similar problem and there was a solution. That reminds me of when I started to realize I was gay. I was like, when you're other gay women talk about what they thought about other women. And I was like, oh, I think that too. Yeah.

So the first thing, and here's the other thing too. They teach you in 12-step programs to listen for the similarities, not the differences. So the first meeting I ever went to was an LGBTQ meeting. And I'm none of those things. I'm a cis straight white dude, but I was able to hear the similarities and be like, oh, I also do that. And it was dope. And that became my first home group where I would go every week. And it was all these fucking cool, young, 20-year-old gay and trans and hip New York City kids. And I was like, this is fucking cool. It was a great way to replace my alcoholic barfly friends who I was drinking with until 5, 6 in the morning at Moniz in fucking Alphabet City with like a bunch of people who also fucking partied like crazy people and

still went out and did fun shit. Yeah. That's the other thing too. I think a lot of people think like when they get sober, they think their life's like fucking over. I'm going to Copenhagen in a couple of weeks to do stand up. I'm like, yeah, you can still have fun. People in recovery do lots of fun shit. I go out all the time. People play, there's fucking softball. Me and a bunch of people play bocce ball. You know what I mean? Catan, sellers of Catan. Anything you're into, there are also a group of sober people who also do that thing. So we're going to list some 12-step terminology and ask you to define these like culty in-group terms for us. Sounds great. What is halting? Hungry, angry, lonely, tired.

Wait, am I halting right now? I love that phrase. Yeah. So you think to yourself, are you any of these things and you kind of take care of it before you like go get start doing drugs or drink or something like that? Or if you're just in a like why the fuck am I in a bad mood? Also, another good one that goes with halt is I can restart my day at any point. See, these are good lessons. Yeah. I feel like these are good life lessons. Like halt is just something that you can do before you like lash out at a friend. Yeah. Like instead of restraint of pen and tongue. Yeah. Before you like send a text or like yell at someone. Send a text or something like that. You fucking think about what you're about to send instead of just reacting.

And it's like the more time you're sober, the more time that you have like pause before you like just react. You're not acting just on fucking adrenaline and angst instead. Yeah. So we mentioned this next one a couple times, the big book. The main literature of Alcoholics Anonymous is called The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous, which was written by a guy named Bill Wilson and another guy named Dr. Bob, who were the people who founded Alcoholics Anonymous. And originally, Alcoholics Anonymous had a hundred members when they wrote the book. And it was the 99 dudes and one lady. Of course. Yeah. Of course. Well, in the demographics of AA, we were looking are still pretty male and pretty white. I don't think those are correct. Oh, really? In my personal opinion,

in 12-step stuff, like 12-step meetings I've gone to are pretty 50-50. It might be because we live up on in these coastal cities. That's true. That's true. But from my opinion of, well, I've been to them everywhere. I mean, it's kind of hard to get like a pulse on it, right? Because it's anonymous. Yeah, it's an anonymous thing. That's so true. So like, I feel like those numbers don't truly reflect. It's hard to gather that too. I feel like also due to the patriarchy, like everything is inherently like initially male dominated, but because like women got rights, got to go to college in the 70s. We can be addicts too. Yeah. We started going to college. UVA didn't accept women until 1972. Is that psychotic? So like, we don't have the opportunity

to be alcoholic. Here's another thing. A thing that makes 12-step programs less culty is they are big on outside help. Oh, huge point. It said like, this isn't therapy. We're not your therapist. Your sponsor is not your therapist. We are, and they're pro-pharmalogical. If your doctor says that you need to be on psych meds, it's pro. Yeah. That's a very important key point. And I feel like that point relates to the fact that like the whole thing isn't monetized. Like, it really is like there's no central figure. There's no money. There's no, I mean, there's central office and every meeting is self-supporting. So you pay the own rent for your meeting and most of them are at like churches. So the rents will be like 50 bucks, 75 bucks a month and everyone

kicks a buck or two bucks into a basket. That all gets pulled together. At the end of the month, they pay rent, the extra money. They might buy like some coffee, donuts, shit like that. But if you're too poor, you don't have to need you more than we need your money. Yeah. That's great. There you go. Okay. This next term, I kind of want to like tattoo on me because it's cool sounding. What does terminally unique mean? Everyone thinks that they're the only person with their problem. Oh, I don't want to tattoo that on myself. Yeah. Yeah. But I hate those kinds of people. So it's like you walk in and someone's like, oh, I'm the only person who's ever gone through this. And then you're in any, in a 12 step meeting, then someone's just going to be like, oh, I've done that. I've

been there. A lot of it too is like all these things that you're beating yourself up about yourself up. You're like, I'm a piece of shit because I did this thing. And then you meet like an old person, like you meet some like lady in her 70s who's like laughing at you while you're saying that. And she's like, yeah, I did that. I drew a fucking drunk into a lake and I'm still here and I'm not a piece of, you know what I mean? You learn that like all these things that you think make you a fucking special little snowflake, everybody else is kind of done too. And it's not a big deal. And you're not a big piece of shit. It's humbling. It's humbling to realize you're not terminally unique. So at the end of every episode of sounds like a cult, we always

ask the final verdict. The cults of 12 step programs, do you think it's a live your life? A watch your back? Or a get the fuck out level cult? I think it would be a live your life because it's a program about how to live your life. Oh, actually, that's so true. Everything that you've been saying has been like gearing towards live your life for sure. But I didn't think about it in like literally it's telling you how to live your life. I mean, all cults are trying to tell you how to live your life. And I will say this, like one of the things in it, and it's a very early thing in like 12 step literature is like, you're supposed to wear it like a loose garment.

You're not supposed to like, it's not a straight jacket. It's not a straight jacket. It's like something that you put on and you do in your life and you, you know, carry throughout your life, like hopefully a spirituality and like you change for the better. I would just say from my perspective, and I'm an outsider, you're an insider, I'll come to it with our own bias. But I would say it is a soft watch your back just because sobriety is so loaded. And I think some of the relationships for certain people could be so intimate. I just know people for whom AA has completely taken over their entire identity, their entire personality, their entire like the way that they spend their life,

their sense of community. It's like in a way drawn them away from their family, even people who were good for them. And that's just that has a lot to do with who they are. Yeah, for sure. One thing I will say that I kind of forgot to mention is a lot of it, unlike most cults, isn't about cutting you off from your family. A big part of like 12 step programs is about like reuniting families and getting people to like be better parents or better children and stuff like that. I know from my personal experience, since I've gotten sober, I'm definitely closer with my family now than I was nine years ago. Wow. But I do think at the end of the day, because sobriety and addiction and these

topics can make one so vulnerable, I would say it is a borderline watch your back. Yeah, I do think it's a live your life. What I would say is a watch your back is someone who is trying to go sober in any capacity. I feel like they're in such a vulnerable place that it's like more so that person should be watching their back because no matter what they're doing or what group they're joining or what hobby they want to get into because they're in like such a vulnerable place. They're an addict. Yeah. And especially in the moment that you're trying to quit, it's like that's when you're going to be like the most sensitive. Yeah. So I will also say this that there are no hard and fast rules. There are only suggestions in the programs. But one of the things

is especially because when people are coming in new, they are pretty vulnerable. There are things like the men stick with the men and the women stick with the women and that your sponsor is always going to be somebody of a gender or the gender you just sign yourself kind of thing. And things like that where it's like and you're not supposed to like date in the first six months so that you're not like just switching from say if you're quitting using drugs and alcohol to like using sex. Yeah. Yeah. I learned that from the show single drunk female on Hulu. Great show with Garrick Bernard. Yeah. Another funny comedian. Got a second season for Garrick. I'm very proud of you buddy. Garrick and me wrote together for Will Smith for a long time. Oh, that's amazing.

Yeah. No, he's great in the show. And like they and he's like the love interest, right? Yeah. Yeah. And they're not supposed to date for like a year. No, but that is fascinating. It's like you could replace alcohol with really anything. Coffee, liquid death, cake. Yeah. I mean, you think it's a little of your life and I would agree. I just think, you know, if you're an addict and you should watch your back always, you know. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Before we wrap up the episode, you mentioned a little bit about your comedy in the beginning, but if people want to follow you. Oh, yeah. Or watch your stuff. Where can they find you? You can watch my special on All Things Comedy's YouTube channel. It's my whole hour specials up there for free to watch. It's called

People Make Mistakes. Oh, love that. So operable. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And then my Instagram is at the JF Harris. JF is like the initials. If you don't have the time to watch a full special, I usually put up a clip every day or two with jokes from the special right now until I burn through that and then I'll shoot another special. Yeah. Amazing. Thank you so much for being here and having this conversation with us. Yeah, for sure. It also just occurred to me that if 12-step programs were get the fuck out or even a hardcore watch your back, there's no way you would have suggested it. Yeah. Oh, yeah, no. Because you were like, oh, we should totally do this. Look, if this helps one person who feels like they need it, that's why I'm here. Anybody who is listening

to this, if you don't have a problem with drugs or alcohol, but you have someone in your life who does, there's another program, a sister program. It's called Allen on it. And that program is for people who have to deal with addicts and alcoholics in their lives. So you can go there and get tools to learn how to just deal with the hardship of being surrounded by a fucking crazy alcoholic. It can be a mind fuck. Yeah. Well, that's our show. Thanks for listening. We'll be back with a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty, but not too culty. Sounds like a cult is created, hosted and produced by Amanda Montell and Issa Medina. Kate Elizabeth is our editor. Our podcast studio is all things comedy and our theme music is by Casey Colb. Thank you to our intern slash

production assistant Noemi Griffin. Subscribe to sounds like a cult wherever you get your podcasts. So you never miss an episode. And if you like our show, feel free to give us a rating and review on Spotify or Apple podcasts and check us out on Patreon at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult.