Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Academia

Episode Date: April 5, 2022

Did you know PhD actually stands for “Probably Heavily in Debt” and “Pretty Heavily Depressed”? Jk (or are we?). This week, Isa and Amanda delve into the mahogany-walled “cult” academia, where hierarchies, elitism, financial exploitation, hidden crimes, false promises, and weird robes are just part of the gig. Comedian, writer, and PhD adjunct professor Amy Silverberg joins us to discuss her experience being both a leader and a follower of this prestigious “cult.”   For listeners of the show, Dipsea is offering an extended 30 day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/CULT.  Go to HelloFresh.com/cult16 and use code cult16 for up to 16 free meals AND 3 free gifts! Listeners get 10% off your first month by visiting our sponsor at BetterHelp.com/CULT 

This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Amanda Montell, author of the book Cultish the Language of Fanaticism, and I'm Issa Medina, a comedian. Every week on our show, we discuss a different fanatical fringe group from the cultural zeitgeist, from MLMs to marathon runners, to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? To join our cult, follow us on Instagram at SoundsLikeCultPod. I'm on Instagram at Amanda underscore Montell, and I'm on IG at Issa Medina, I-S-A-A-M-E-D-I-N-A-A. And feel free to check us out on YouTube or hit us up on Patreon at Patreon.com slash Sounds Like a Cult.

Now, it's time to learn. You're gonna learn today. Oh, I should. I almost wore a blazer this week, but it was too hot. Oh, yeah, it's so hot. It's warm here in Los Angeles. Oh, global warming. Yeah, I'm sure they're studying about it at those universities. And with that, you can probably tell that we're here to talk about a much-anticipated episode, The Cult of Academia.

Yes, a cult that, surprise, shocker, I've kind of been a part of. I mean, you have too. You went to college. I certainly did, and I come from a long line of academics. Actually, I brought up yesterday with my parents. I was visiting them that we were going to do an episode on The Cult of Academia, and they got really defensive, which is normally a sign that we need to cover a topic. They were like, it's a live your life. It's a live your life.

And you were like, we'll see about that. I was like, mom and dad, or shall I say, professor, mom and dad. Yeah, doctors, Craig and Denise Montau. Yeah. Google their work. Yeah, Google it. They are smart people. They are.

But yeah, I was in The Cult of Academia a little bit longer because I did get a master's degree. Fortunately, unfortunately, I truly don't know. I'm a master of public policy, if you didn't already know that. A master. Not a mistress, because of course, only men can pursue higher education. And actually, traditionally, that was true. That's a good linguistic point. Well, yeah, I mean, master and mistress, fun fact, started out as minimal pairs.

They just meant female and male head of household. But over time, master ameliorated, as it's called, to acquire a more positive meaning, the expert of a craft. While mistress devolved, pejorated, as it's called, to mean the head of a brothel. We need to reclaim mistress. You have a mistress's degree. I do. I have a mistress's degree in public policy.

And I never talk about it because once you go through it, you see it in a different light. You know, I idolized it so much before I got a master's degree. And once I got the master's degree, I was like, oh, I just had to study for two years. Tell the story, because my understanding of your master's degree is you were sort of upsold on it from the university where you attended undergrad. Yeah. So I went to the University of Virginia.

And a hallowed institution. It's a great one. It has its own problems. But we can talk about those another day. I could have graduated early. I probably could have graduated like a year early, but I was a politics and cinematography major. And a classic combo. Classic combo.

And I really wanted to work at the United Nations. I had interned there, a cult of its own. I'd interned there twice already, and I knew you needed a master's degree. So I was like, all right, you know what? I'll stay my four years and do a two-year master's program so that I just have to graduate one year later. And I did it. I was promised that I would make six figures getting out.

I was promised that I would definitely have a job. I was promised that I would be the best candidate for the exact positions that I was looking for. And ultimately, I'm not bashing on the program itself, because I think a lot of universities do this. That's not true. Like, they're promising something they can't guarantee. People often ask me why I didn't pursue a PhD in linguistics. I love learning, obviously.

I love books. I love so many fields that I actually hated while I was in school, because plot twists, I actually hated school. You were a kid. And when I was a young adult, I hated. I didn't like being told what to do. I didn't like being forced to respect people that I didn't genuinely respect. I didn't like the chain of command or the forced formality.

I didn't like to be told what voice I had to write in. Like, I considered graduating with my linguistics degree with honors, but when I submitted my honors thesis, they told me it was too voicey, and I would need to learn to write like an academic to do that. Now, you are writing a lot. You do so much research for your books, and so it's kind of like we had this swap. I was so obsessed with academia when I was younger,

especially as an immigrant. It's something that you want to pursue. You're told that getting degrees is going to make or break your career. Absolutely. And so it was like, I had all the cookies in the cookie jar, and now I never want to have a cookie again. You overdid it on cookies. I overdid it on the cookies.

It's like, I feel about studying the way that you feel about a song that you overplayed. I'm done with it. I never want to listen to it again. And you were like, I didn't have enough cookies. I didn't want more cookies. Totally. I got out early. I also wanted to rebel against my parents.

I come from this line of academics, and I was like, it's not for me. I'm going to be a poet. I also want to say without basic science, which is what my parents and grandparents did, we wouldn't fucking know anything. But again, my parents got very defensive about the cult of academia. When I look at it as an outsider,

everything from the false promises to the robes and lab coats, I see a cult. Yeah, no. I mean, even the power dynamics. And we're going to have a guest on later who was in the cult of academia herself. You could say she still is. She still is.

Yeah. She has at least one foot in. Yeah, she has a PhD and she's still teaching classes. But first, we're going to analyze it. It's actually pretty easy to draw parallels between religious cults and the cult of academia. First of all, there are countless false promises. Yeah.

Like we mentioned earlier, they promise you that you're going to make 20% more, that you're going to make six figures. And that's just for the master's degree. But when you talk about PhDs, they give you this idea that you're going to be like a prestigious professor and that you're guaranteed employment in universities.

And that's not always the case. Have you seen professors walking around campus? They do not look happy. They don't look happy and they don't look rich. Yeah. But I- Sweater vests. Surprise.

They're getting them at thrift shops. That's why they wear sweater vests because they're cheap. Our intern, Noemi Shoutout, was talking about how professors try to flatter and groom you into pursuing a PhD. But an academic career hasn't been secure or viable since the 80s due to systemic divestment or states cutting education budgets, which has gotten much worse in COVID.

And actually 76% of faculty at universities are hired on a contingent basis, meaning their adjuncts. And 25% of those adjuncts are paid so poorly that they qualify for food stamps and welfare. That is so insane. Most universities are nonprofits. It's like that nonprofit vibe or like a startup vibe

where people are hired part-time and they're like, oh no, it's just the vibe around here. But we have a ping-pong table. Do you like it? And a professor's version of a ping-pong table is like a beautiful old library and they're like wowed by the libraries. It's so true.

There's such romance in academia and that is tied pretty directly to the elitism, you know? Yeah. Another terrifying stat for you. Only 2% to 7% of folks pursuing PhDs will get tenure or tenure track position. That's like saying only 2% to 7% of your employees are full-time.

Yeah. That's literally what that means. Adjuncts, they don't have tenure. They can be fired at any time. There was a story about this woman named Margaret Mary Voitko. Okay, she was 83 years old, but she died of a heart attack on her front lawn after being let go from her university

and she spent 25 years at that institution. Oh my god, it's so sad. Like adjuncts truly are exploited, so hardcore that they're now dying on their front lawns. I know. It's a death gold. Poor woman. Poor woman.

Isn't the whole reason that you pursue a PhD, the whole reason that you pursue academia is for like job security so that you can do research? Yes, it is so that you can pursue research, but there's this weird sense of- Or so that you can walk around and be like, I'm a doctor. I'm a doctor. That's the only reason I would get a PhD

so that people would have to call me Zaxa. My Zaxa. But there is this sense of martyrdom in academia where it's almost frowned upon to want to make a good living because you're just doing this in pursuit of truth and research and you're doing it for the students. This is making us think of nonprofits, it's making us think of startups,

but it's also kind of making me think of a pyramid scheme because you're promised all this job security and prestige, but there are three times more doctoral degrees awarded in the humanities than there are faculty positions. So this dearth of overqualified PhDs enters a market that cannot accommodate them. Yeah, it's like all these people are entering the space where there's even less space at the top,

and like you mentioned earlier, then they're even trying to convince, it's like recruiting, they're trying to convince their students to get a PhD. Straight up. Do you think they got bonuses? I don't know, is there commission every time one of your students signs up to get a PhD?

I don't know, but you probably get like, I feel like the academia version of commission is like clout. Pride, clout. Well, there's literally something called an academic family tree. You can look up to see who was a descendant, research-wise, of James Watson, for example,

who was a terrible bigot, by the way, and the more protégés that these academic granddaddies have under them, it just builds up their legacy, like a friggin' top diamond consultant in a pyramid scheme. And I feel like it's also getting harder because in the last like 100 years, obviously academia has done so much important research that needed to be done.

But I feel like we're doing research faster and faster, we're learning things faster, and then with the internet, everything is moving at like light speed, so I'm like, is there anything else to learn? Well, definitely, but I thought you were gonna say, I thought you were gonna say, is it necessary to be in school that long?

Yeah, that too. People are in school longer than ever, but we're also learning things faster than ever, so how does that make any sense? Yeah, my biggest recommendation to like college kids who like ask about getting internships or like doing this or doing that, you should try and graduate in three years.

Dude. Because that one year of like figuring out like what you wanna do is- And thinking for yourself. Yeah. And that's the thing, there are these high entrance costs to get into academia, but there are also these psychologically very high exit costs,

there's such a sense of shame surrounding leaving, like academia is a superior way of being in the world because they're worshiping the dogma of knowledge. Yeah. There's such unbelievable gatekeeping in academia, like yes, we're all in pursuit of truth and knowledge, but it can't be denied that these institutions were founded by curmudgeonly white cis men,

they're still primarily run by curmudgeonly white cis men. Yeah. And that's culty too, because not everybody can pursue truth equally. Yeah, unchecked powers and the power dynamics, you are inherently going to have unfair power dynamics if like a certain group of people, white cis men created the institution to begin with.

It is really complicated because with the development of like big donors and legacies and all of that getting worse and worse, then it's like, I don't know, these institutions might not be as independent as we think they are. Or as innocent. I mean, if they weren't cults,

why would there be a college admissions scandal? Yeah. I think one of the biggest power dynamics is like the cult of personality surrounding professors. Yes. I believe it or not was a teacher's assistant, a TA for an undergrad class. I know hot.

Everyone wanted me. It is hot. It is hot to be a TA. Oh my God, my semantics. TA was this guy named Tim. And I mean, the way you're talking about it, it's like being a TA is like being a cult leader because you have these kids who like believe everything

that you're saying. Oh my God. They literally are waiting on you for like praise and approval and they want to fuck you. I'm just kidding. Am I living in a bubble? No, I totally wanted to fuck Tim. He looked like Kurt Cobain,

but he specialized in the relationship between words, meaning, and logic. I was like, yeah. That is me. That's like Amanda's. That's like Amanda's like. That's my wet dream. That's my pillow talk.

That's my pillow talk. It's like, what, like let's, let's diagram that sentence. Yeah. Oh, oh yeah. Totally. I'm so into that. Um, well, this is an awkward transition, but the power dynamic in universities

also shows up in sexual abuse cases. Like in the wake of affairs with students, professors are often sort of shipped around off to sister universities abroad instead of being fired just like in pastor sex scandals. On a lighter note, there is something that we have to talk about their outfits. I mean, we talked about the sweater vest, but the robes.

The robes, the lab coats. It's like nexium hierarchy vibes. Yeah. And also it's like, oh, you've done all this research and you can't figure out how to make a robe look good. Like they are so loose. Like tighten them up around the hip a little bit. Something automatically looks cultier

when everybody's wearing a big black robe. When I got mine, because you know how like master's degree you wear the thing on top, I was like, oh my God, this is going to be like so special. And you just pick it up in the library with the rest of the undergrad. Although I have to say, like, I mean, I just have my dinky little bachelor's degree,

but I did graduate at Magna Cum Laude. Thank you. Oh, Amanda had to get that in. I would have graduated Summa Cum Laude, but I got to be in acting. OK, I got a D plus in Intro to Economics. Fair, fair. I do remember when I graduated and got my little like gold

tassel. I did, I did feel pretty good about myself. You feel special, but it's like I spent two years getting this master's degree. And then I was in line with undergrads at the library, like paying to pick up this thing. And I was like, I feel tricked. Yeah, the last sort of culty point

is academics find themselves in their own little world. Like they only talk to other academics. And sometimes they're literally on a campus in bumfuck east Jesus nowhere. That is a huge culty aspect of it. Totally. You move in with your fellow academics and you like are in this bubble.

Yes. And it wasn't until like I left Charlottesville, Virginia that I realized I was in a bubble. I mean, I just think of these poor academics who will uproot their entire life to move to like, I don't want to disparage any given state or city, but places that do not seem appealing. I mean, I grew up in Baltimore because my parents

accepted positions at Hopkins. They didn't want to move to Baltimore, but the prestige of the institution like drew them there anyway. Yeah. But you have to find what you do important. You know what I mean? Like if you don't take something seriously,

then like who will? And because everything is kind of fake, you have to decide what is real to you. Oh, of course. I mean, it's the creation of meaning. That's why cults from academia to Trader Joe's thrive, because they offer people the opportunity to manufacture that sense of false meaning

in an ultimately nihilistic existence. Yeah. How did we get here that fast? I don't know. But I think the goal is to be able to have a meaningful life without engaging in a group that has unchecked power structures and hierarchies. Yeah.

Next, we're going to talk to a comedian, a professor, a dear friend of mine, Amy Silverberg. She's a writer. She's written for Best American Short Stories of the Paris Review. She's been on Just for Laughs, Comedy Central, Amazon Prime. She has a PhD in creative writing and literature from the University of Southern California, where she teaches.

And her students love her. So maybe she has her own little cult following. We had a really fun talk with Amy where we not only discussed the cult of academia, but we touched a little bit on the cult of comedy and compared the two worlds. You're a stand-up comedian and you're a professor at USC. Yes.

Yes. I'm an adjunct. And you have a PhD. I do. So like, how did that all happen? Yeah. Why the fuck do you have a PhD? I know.

That's a truly wild. The only things I've ever been good at were reading, writing, and talking. And then I was an English lit major at UC Santa Barbara. You can study buzzed or the University of Casual Sex and Beer. I don't know. Actually, my parents are professors there. Oh my god.

OK. Big party college, great English program, I have to say. And so then I did a master's afterwards. I knew that I wanted to be a writer. And I just, everything took so much longer than I thought it would, you know? I remember thinking at 22, like I'm going to write a novel in a year.

And then at the end of my master's, I had like a few good short stories. Like it just took me so long to learn how to write. And then after that, I started doing standup. And I just needed somebody to pay me to write. And so at the very last minute, I applied for a doctorate because they would pay you to read and write and teach.

What planted the seed that academia was around you? Well, so I had a friend who was in it. I learned how much they paid you, which is not a ton. But it was like, not a ton. You know, not a ton. At a time when you want to be a writer and get paid for it. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

And that you had to teach and that it would take me like six years. And that you signed something that said you wouldn't work other jobs. But then somebody else told me that everybody still does work other jobs. So that you're only in two years of course work. And then you're either teaching or you're on fellowship.

So I've like been in a writer's room during the time that I was in my PhD. Yeah. OK. I've done eight million things. There are loopholes. So let me ask this. As a student or a PhD candidate, as we're supposed to say,

what do you think was the cultiest aspect of that experience? And now as an adjunct faculty, what is the cultiest aspect of that experience? Adjuncts are just, you know, treated so poorly. It's like I teach everything that nobody else wants to teach and then make less money. Yeah, that's culty. Everybody else.

Yeah. And that's fucked up. The best professors always, I think, are the ones who are being paid less. You know, they're being paid the least. For my friends who only teach, like for me, teaching is one of my many jobs. You know, they spread you so thin,

it's really hard to like give students the kind of attention that you want to give them and stuff. How many classes do you teach? Right now I'm teaching at so many different places. So I'm teaching a course at USC, a course at UCLA Extension, and a course at Stanford Extension. And those are like more for adults. You know, my understanding is that when

you enter the cult of academia, there are these lofty, larger-than-life and pretty elitist promises that you're like in this upper echelon of people who are pursuing truth and knowledge. And that makes you better than everyone else. But then you're working for pennies and when you graduate or get your degree,

there's like this deficit of jobs available. Oh, yeah. Mine was so different because I got up, my main thing was creative writing. So I was always like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be right in your head on straight. You were like, I'm using this, it's not using. Right.

And I was also like writing television. So it was all very weird. But I have friends who are just PhDs in literature and their specialty is so niche. A friend who wrote her dissertation on Victorian dolls in Victorian literature. Are people so obsessed with niche shit? Like, what do you have to be?

You have to be because they're coming behind this huge legacy of a million other PhDs in Victorian literature before them. And so it's like, they have to make their mark. Yeah, and you have to have to. You have to like find some research niche that other people haven't. And my dissertation was mostly creative.

It was like my collection of short stories. And then I had to have 60 pages of critical work. And that was like the female comedic voice and contemporary American short stories. So you always have one foot out the door. Yes. And also everyone knew that about me in my program. It was like a joke.

They'd be like, I still have friends who text me like, I got to do it the Amy way, which means like go through a million like loopholes, find ways to do the least amount of work. Yeah. I feel like we have that in common. I do that a lot with a lot of the quilts that we talk about is like, I'm like one foot in, one foot out.

Right. And I feel like maybe that's just like the comedian way. Right, right, right. You have to ask everything. Just to touch on like the one foot in, one foot out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Having that makes you see the flaws within the system because you're not blinded by like your love for academia.

I got that master's and it was a new program. So even the professors themselves were like fighting for stage time essentially. Damn, yeah. All the drama was like so transparent within the policy program itself. So immediately I was like, why are all these people who are already professors already have their PhDs

still not happy and fighting for this? I noticed that when I was getting my PhD and still now that people will try to make themselves be indispensable. So they create jobs for themselves. Yeah. So some of them are like, I'm teaching this class for graduate students and then the graduate students suddenly have to take this class that they don't want to take.

And it's like, you created a class to get paid more, and now you have to convince students to take it. You have to make students to take it. It's all sort of a pyramid scheme. It's just what literally is a pyramid scheme. It reminds me of all the convoluted courses you have to take in Scientology. Academia is ruled and there's a lot of power abuse

by older white men. Totally, totally. I was going to mention that you were talking about these professors that are jaded because I feel like you have to become a certain age to be respected in academia. Well, there's also this weird balance of like, I think my students really like me because I'm pretty young, you know?

And so it's like, I get what they're going through. I never fail anyone if they have a good reason why they can't turn something in. It's like, I remember being like, I still get hungover and I cancel class at the last minute and I'm the teacher. I'm like, sorry, can't come. And it's like, I'm like barfing. You can relate to them.

Yeah. So it's like, or when someone's like, I had an anxiety attack and like, can I have another day? I'm like, yeah, you can have another day. Like, it's not the end of the world. And this is, I don't even teach majors. So it's like intro to fiction. Like you're not going to die if you know, if you don't.

But I will say that sometimes I think there's been a turn where like we can feel like customer service representatives for our students. Where it's like, if they're unhappy at all, they will like complain in this way that you're like. You're very concerned with how they feel all the time. I guess if you care for so many years and you kind of get jaded,

then you kind of have to like shut off and like not care at all. Yeah. And I think, you know, it's like these professors who have taught many generations and haven't adapted at all, haven't evolved. Like I've taught under older professors that I'm like, I cannot believe in a literature of Los Angeles class. Like you're teaching this old white man novel

when there are so many new and contemporary novels about LA that are coming out all the time that would really like blow the heads off of like the top of the head off of kids who aren't used to reading contemporary fiction. You know, and so it's like they don't want, they're too lazy or whatever to change their syllabus or to learn a new thing to teach them that they're. Yeah.

I bet it's also because being in the very white, very male bubble of academia prevents certain people from having like the big picture awareness to inspire and connect with young people. And this is the problem with cults like academia, you know, even if people are not like full blown abusing others, this sort of insularity maybe keeps them in a state of cult leaderish self absorption almost.

I can understand why there are older professors who are like, why do, why do we let the kids do whatever? Yeah. You know, like. It's important to have that balance, right? Yeah, yeah, like they need to work for the degree. Right, right, right. They can't just pay for the degree.

Right, right. And there needs to be pushback, there should be a dialogue, you know, and there's plenty of power abuse that comes from people who aren't older. Right, totally, totally. We're going to ask a couple more questions and then we're going to play a game

that involves you evaluating the cult of stand up versus the cult of academia. Oh, I love that. Wait, do your parents like teaching at UCSB? Do they like being professors? Well, they do their research there. I grew up in Baltimore because they did their research at Johns Hopkins.

OK. So, but this leads me to my next comment. I wonder if you have thoughts on it. I find that the humanities are much cultier than the sciences because science researchers and professors are, first of all, like following the scientific methods. So there is like a procedure. And also, it's much more collaborative

because people are like having to work together to objectively cure cancer. But in the humanities, there's so much competition because it's all just like the subjectious circle jerk of like, who's reading? Yeah. Who says like the smartest thing about Nietzsche or whatever the fuck.

And also like nothing is literal. It's just your opinion. You can't be right or wrong. I think it can be really catty, but I also just think writers in general and readers are sensitive. You know, I think that's the reason people turn to reading is because they're sensitive.

And I think that's something interesting about stand up too. It's like, you know, I on like on Twitter, on YouTube, whatever, when people will be like, you know, you're a comedian, you should have a thick skin. It's like, the reason people are comedians is because they're sensitive to the world. Yeah, it's because they have a comment

on like everything that they see. Right. The reason why you become a writer is because you have such sensitivity to the world. And then being a writer requires you to have a thick skin. And I think the same is like people in the humanities. They grew up reading at eight, seven, six, because, you know, the world seemed scary in some way.

So they like opened a book. And then it's weird to see people who are now 50 angry, being like, do you remember what you actually liked about reading? You know? No, I do think that academia can rob some of that purity. I'm sure it can. That like pure joy.

And all the red tape that they have to do. Yeah, and what about like the schmoozing? Because I know like there's just so much schmoozing in academia. You know what I've learned most since I've taught creative writing and literature is that being likeable is like my students who I like, who I feel like are at least pretending to care about the books I've assigned. I'm bumping them up, you know?

Yeah. And the kid's been a real dick. And I can see that they're looking at their phone the entire time. I'm like, and they're on the edge of a bee. I'm not bumping them up. Oh, I, I, I'm never going to take the kid down. Yeah.

Because I don't like them. But if I really like them and I feel like they've tried really hard, I'm like always going to. That is completely fair to me. I mean, we're social creatures who are built to thrive and judge others based on their social faculties. So that makes sense to me. I think when it gets dangerously culty is when someone

is in your position, who's not sweet and non exploitative, someone who's going to like take advantage of that schmoozy vibe. Do you think like this younger generation of kids who are in college now, do you think they still idolize professors the way that like we did? Because I feel like there's just so much that has been like seen behind, I guess that was the phrase behind the curtain. I really like this generation.

You know, like I, I love my students and I like doing stand up in front of college age. Yeah. Um, and yes, I do think sometimes there, some students can be a little bit like babied, but that's not their fault. That's, you know, that's that generation of parents. And I'm definitely not one of those people who's like, they're too sensitive.

Yeah. No, I think like it's almost the opposite. Kids are becoming adults. So young that by the time they get to college, they are so comfortable with their own opinions that I feel like they're almost not like scared of authority. Yeah. No, I think they're definitely less.

And I also don't approach my students. Like I'm like, call me Amy. Like I don't approach them with a but, but I will say, you know, I respect you more because you're like meeting them at their level. And I try to, I try to respect their time. And I mean, some of it too is like my own laziness that I'm like, I'm not going to sign you guys a bunch of homework.

Cause like I trust you here adults that are like, I don't want to grade your fucking homework. Yeah. It's funny that you said laziness because whenever people jokingly ask me about starting my own cults, I'm always just like, listen, managing that many personalities just sounds like far too much work. Can you easily see how someone in your position though

would create a culty environment? Totally. Well, I also, I've been in love with every writing professor, man or woman that I've ever had. Me too. Because it was like, that's who told me I was good at the thing I cared about. Me too.

I used to tell this story on stage, but there was like a, my first semester of teaching. So I remember it so distinctly this student I loved. I just thought he was so smart and like so funny. And I had stumbled across his Twitter. This was creepy of me. And he had tweeted, how does one tell his writing professor he loves her?

And I wanted to be like, you know, retweet anything. Now, and then he went to grad school to write. Now it's so clear that he's gay. Like, I think he's like out. And I'm like, of course he was like, you know, like, how about he loves his professor. Now he's like on Fire Island and like his veto. It's incredible.

He was like in love with like the validation that you were giving him. And it's like, I knew that I wanted to be a writer in high school. I guess I was like, a reader was what I was good at. But it wasn't until like a professor in college, like I read Middle Mart, you know. And writing is so personal.

So like when a professor or a teacher like reads your writing and says they like it, it's almost like them saying they like you. Yes, totally. Yeah. And I think usually I have one to two students a semester. And I say this to like, I know it's going to affect them, but I don't say it, I say it meaning it.

That I'm like, you're a writer, you know. Like whether you know it or not, like you, you're a writer. Like you have, you see the world in the way that a writer does. And like many of them don't know it, you know. Yeah. So I guess in some fields, a professor in that scenario would like really try to recruit them to pursue a master's, a PhD, like come into our class.

I mean, I do that as like a joke. I always say at the beginning of the semester because nobody wants to be an English major, that I'm going to try to make everybody an English major, turn everyone into writers. And sometimes I'll have a student be like, my dad wants me to go to law school. Like I really love writing.

And I'll be like, don't go to law school if you don't like law school. That's the saddest. I know so many people who should be writers who are now lawyers. Right. And they don't law school. Why is everyone a lawyer? Don't we have to? A lot.

I don't read. Don't have too many. I know. Well, then they'll be like, how do you make a living? And I'll be like, like, you can't make a living as a writer. How would I? And I'm like, you bet me. Like you'd work a million jobs.

Yeah, that doesn't sound good. Yeah, but if you work a million jobs or work like a 50-hour day, like I lost. Exactly. I lost stuff. The truth is, it's like everything doesn't have to be the most important thing to everyone. I just want them to be a little bit more interested in books

and writing than they were when they came to me, you know? And the cool thing about books is that they can be about anything. This is the other thing about The Cult of Academia is that I wanted to be a writer on my own terms. And I've never liked a signed reading. I love reading and I love many of the books. Oh, I feel the same way.

I just don't like to be told what to do. Well, and one of my goals when I teach like an intro to fiction, intro to creative writing, is I tell the students that I could recommend each one a different book that I thought they in particular would like by the end of class. And usually their books, they never heard of. I love bombing techniques.

That's amazing. I love bombing my students. Yeah. We're going to play a game called Who's Most Likely to? Comedy Cult versus Academia Cult Edition. And I want to shout out our intern Noemi, who helped us conceive of this game. Oh my God, you just have an intern.

Yeah. She's cool. She's so cool. OK, so we're going to present a scenario. And then you're going to say which cult member it applies to more people in The Cult of Academia or people in The Cult of Comedy. OK, which we are going to do an episode on one day.

OK, who's most likely to bring every conversation back to their most recent work? Academia or comedy? I truly could be either one. You have to pick. I'm going to have to go with Cult of Comedy. Yeah. Really?

Yeah. Comedians are so shameless. Yeah. That is so true. You are so shameless. And they're me? Whereas I think professors are a little bit more, they have more shame.

They're going to be a little, like they're going to hang back. I feel like also professors or people in academia would do it in a way that you didn't even notice. Right. Whereas like comedians are just like really blunt. Who's most likely to only have friends that do the same thing as them? Oh my God, comedy.

Comedy. This is going to sound annoying for me to say, but do you feel sometimes when you go to a party or get together without comedians, I feel like bored now? No, I like it. I just feel like whenever I hang out too much with writers, I'm annoyed with them.

Sometimes every world I notice in stand-up, like LA stand-up is its own very specific world. Even within LA stand-up, there's east side to west side. You go to other cities to do stand-up, and you're like even that small. It's like every little, I just like the world to feel big, I guess, is I'm like a person who fears getting trapped, hilarious, claustrophobia.

Yes. I'm so similar to that. I also fear claustrophobia, which I think is what like prevents us from staying in cults for too long. We just jump around from thing to thing. Who's most likely to justify working around the clock for no money?

Oh. People in academia or comedians? I want to say people in academia. People in academia. I think so too, because I'm coming to this not objectively, but I think academics, again, are filled with this sense of purpose. Like I'm doing something that's going to benefit the canon

of knowledge. Whereas comedians are like, I'm just trying to make people laugh. Well, I also think people in academia work more for free because they have to sit down and do research. Whereas comedians come up with jokes and conversations at parties, write it down. If you're doing proper research, it takes way longer than writing a bit.

Yeah. And comedians do often just want to be famous, but I think even if an academic wanted to be famous, they would never admit that. Totally. Again, too much pride and shame. And sometimes it's nice to just be out baldly with what you want.

Yeah. Yeah. OK, who's most likely to get swept up by a charismatic yet toxic mentor? Oh my god. That's got to be a tie too, but maybe academia. I feel like maybe back in the day, equal tie, but now people are more wary of mentors in comedy.

Totally. And all my mentors in comedy are women. Yeah. It's like, and I always. I get mentored by a man. I'm always trying to help a younger girl out. Want to mentor me? A woman can be toxic too.

Yeah. Totally. I just feel like when a woman wants to take me on the road, I'm like, oh, phew. Yeah. Well, I think, you know what's funny about how women can be toxic too is that I feel like my. Oh, yeah.

My antenna aren't up as much for women. So if a cool girl wanted to exploit the shit out of me, she could easily. Totally. Totally. Because you're like trusting. I also think there's a thing with women that maybe insecure female comedians have, that there's not enough room

for everyone. And that a girl is going to. Zero son bias. I didn't even know that had a name. And that a girl is going to take their spot. Yeah. Whereas like a man doesn't feel that way. He's like, you know, you're not.

We're not telling the same kind of joke. Or like what some people do, which is like women who see other women as their competition, they almost keep them closer. I've had some relationships with people that like I don't really talk to anymore. But like immediately they were like, I'll show you around. I'll do this with you.

And then. Keep your enemies close. Once. Yeah. And then one later, like at the same level, then they were like, OK, bye. Who's most likely not to report being abused by someone more powerful than them for fear of sabotaging their career?

I mean, that's got to be equal. Do you think there's more infrastructure to report something in academia than there is comedy? Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know that it's not, you know. Shitty. That it's perfect or scary or whatever.

I kind of think they're pretty equal. I don't know. Maybe in comedy, you have more like friends to go to. Whereas I think in academia, you have more of a structure to go to. And that can be maybe lonelier. Yeah. I don't know.

And almost scarier because it's more formal. Anything formalizing anything. Completely. And there's no guarantee that you're going to see justice or anything. Right. I feel like with comedy, it's like you're not tied to an institution.

If you feel like on the outskirts of a scene, you could go to another city. Right. Or try another comedy scene. Whereas like if you're in a PhD program at that university, like you have to stick it out. Right. I mean, I think they're both scary in their own way.

At this moment, I think I would feel like something bad would be more likely to happen to me in comedy than in academia. But I'm not sure why I think that. Maybe because there's more drinking in comedy. And I would worry that some. There's not like a two wine maximum. I feel like I'm not a round man in academia.

Like in environments where it would be that easy to hurt me. But I think there's different kinds of ways of exploiting women and hurting them. And it doesn't necessarily have to be at night and sexual. In academia, it might just appear more subtle. Who is most likely to convince themselves that they will be the one out of all of their peers

to become famous and respected, even though it's statistically basically impossible. Oh, my god. Comedy does. Comedy has the most deranged. Delusion. Yeah, delusion. Academia is way more like, I just, you know.

There's more pessimism. Yes. And kind of a, maybe even a pretentious cynicism of like, I'm just here in my little niche. The Sisyphean task of like, once again, I go to the page to write about Victorian dolls. Whereas like in comedy, people are like, the soap and Mike. Yeah.

Tomorrow, like, I'm going to fucking kill this Mike in three minutes. And tomorrow, I'm going to get a special. Who is most likely to come home crying because a room full of people made them feel like a fucking loser. Damn. These are so good because they all. Professors or comedians.

You know, I've been in many a workshop where I've seen a writer cry when people didn't, you know, get it. But I still want to say, I've heard had many a comedian friend call me crying after they bought. Oh, yeah. Remember there was that one comedian at your show the other day who was talking about being in a poetry class in undergrad. He prefers stand up to being in a writing class because in stand

up, if someone doesn't like a joke, there's just silence. But in poetry, if someone doesn't like your poem, everybody's going to go around and say exactly why. Exactly what they didn't like about it. That is so true. Thank you so much for being here and talking about not only the cult of academia, but the cult of comedy. If people want to keep up with you and join your cult,

where can they do that? I'm on all social media at Amy Silverberg. Oh, I'm now on TikTok at Amy Silverberg. Oh, really? This is new. I'm really on TikTok. OK, go off. Amy's very funny on Twitter.

You guys should follow her. I have a website at Amy Silverberg or www.amysilverberg.com. I can barely say my own name or you can be Silverberg. Read my short story. Oh. Do that. Yeah. Some of them.

So Issa, out of the three cult categories, live your life. Watch your back. Or get the fuck out. What do you think about the cult of academia? So I've been saying a lot lately, live your life. Mm-hmm. But tell your parents I'm sorry, doggie.

Because I do think the cult of academia is a watch your back. Me too. Especially because we didn't even touch on this. But within these old institutions, there are private groups that professors are in. There's these secret societies, too. Cults within cults. There are cults within the cult.

And I think the exit costs are high enough that people find it really hard to leave. And the dedication you give to the job, it can affect your mental health and your life in very deep place. I mean, this is all I can say is that my parents pour themselves into their work in an almost religious capacity, which is ironic because they're scientists.

And I think they've had a really positive experience in the cult of academia and are very successful. But considering the combination of false promises, financial exploitation, power dynamics, exit costs, and the like, it's got to be a watch your back. Yeah, especially for how much space there is for successful people. Like you said, it's very MLM vibes in that it's just not

possible for everyone. Especially not now in the wake of COVID when academic institutions were brought to their knees. You know what I mean? It's just a more precarious path than ever before. Yeah, and for those of you who are thinking, but I wanted to get my PhD, you still can. But you know what else you can do?

You can go to your local thrift shop. And just get a sweater vest. Just get a sweater vest. Honestly, you could probably find it for $10 under. That is like no exit costs right there. No, I mean, there's a reason we're not saying it's to get the fuck out. Like if your soul tells you to pursue a PhD,

and obviously if you want to be a medical doctor or a research scientist, or we need researchers, then higher education is literally actually necessary. But I just think along the way, you have to watch your back for those power dynamics that can fuck you. Yeah, exactly. And that's all we have for you folks.

That's our show. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back on the new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. Sounds Like a Cult is created, hosted, and produced by Amanda Montell and Issa Medina. Kate Elizabeth is our editor.

Our podcast studio is All Things Comedy, and our theme music is by Kasey Kulb. Thank you to our intern slash production assistant, Noemi Griffin. Subscribe to Sounds Like a Cult wherever you get your podcasts. So you never miss an episode. And if you like our show, feel free to give us a rating and review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

And check us out on Patreon at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult.