Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of America's Next Top Model

Episode Date: July 8, 2025

This week, Chelsea, Amanda, and guest Sarah Hartshorne (@sarahbhartshorne) dig into the high-gloss, high-drama, and disturbingly high-control world of America’s Next Top Model. Once hailed as a launchpad for aspiring models, the long-running franchise masked emotional manipulation and identity erasure beneath a veneer of empowerment and fashion fantasy. From Tyra Banks’ god-like authority to the cultish language of “smize” and “booty tooch,” we explore how ANTM built a reality TV empire on forced makeovers, psychological pressure, and spectacle disguised as self-improvement. Sarah, who rose to fame as the only plus-size contestant on Cycle 9, joins us to expose what really went down behind the catwalk, drawing from her upcoming memoir You Wanna Be On Top? Subscribe to Sounds Like A Cult on Youtube!Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod, @amanda_montell, @reesaronii, @chelseaxcharles. Thank you to our sponsors! Head to https://www.squarespace.com/CULT to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code CULT Start paying rent through Bilt and take advantage of your Neighborhood Benefits™ by going to https://joinbilt.com/CULT Right now save 20% on your FIRST order and get a free cat toy at https://PrettyLitter.com/CULT  Please consider donating to those affected by ICE activity in the LA Area. Team SLAC are donating to the Coalition for Humane Immigrant Rights, an LA-based immigrant rights organization providing legal services, policy advocacy, and direct aid to those most impacted. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And so I love Pretty Litter in that it helps me monitor him a little bit. Right now, save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy at prettylitter.com slash cult. That's prettylitter.com slash cult to save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy. Prettylitter.com slash cult. Pretty litter cannot detect every feline health issue or prevent or diagnose diseases. A diagnosis can only come from a licensed veterinarian. Terms and conditions apply, see site for details. You can earn your favorite airline miles and hotel points through built just by paying your rent. Let me explain. There's no cost to join and just by paying rent you unlock flexible points that can be transferred to your favorite hotels and airlines, a

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host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. My dad, when I was like, oh, I have this contract, I need you to sign, I'm going to go film an episode of Top Model. And he was like, I think you are being sold into human trafficking. And I was like, dad, it's not human trafficking. It's like a real thing. It's a real show. I was like, it's a real contract. And he was like,

yeah, there's a lot of contracts in trafficking. And I was like, Dad, stop it. You're being so lame. Like, oh my God. And then I was sitting on this like tarmac blindfolded with 30 other girls, not allowed to talk. And I was like, if he was right, I am going if he was right I am gonna be so mad. I will be so mad. And then they took the blindfold off and it's Miss J and I was like oh thank god he was wrong. Sort of wrong. Yeah yeah you like come see come saw. Do you know what I mean? It can be embarrassing it can be hard to admit like I was suckered into a cult. This is Sounds Like a Cult a show about the the modern-day cults we all follow. I'm your host Amanda Montell, author of some books like Cultish.

And I'm your co-host Chelsea Charles, an unscripted TV producer and a lifelong student of pop culture sociology. Every week on the show, we discuss a different zeitgeist-y group that puts the cults in culture, from sleepaway camp to incels, to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? And if so, which of our three cult categories does it fall into? A live-your-life, a watch your back, or a get-the-fuck-out?

After all, cultish influence falls along a continuum, and it doesn't always look the same. Some modern-day cults seem super fringy and ritualistic, but are actually relatively harmless, like, I don't know, hardcore plant parents or Trader Joe's lovers, the Hawaiian shirts? Green Fly. The cultiness doesn't necessarily mean that they're super destructive. But then you've got culty groups that might seem fairly harmless on the outside, and yet they actually have more in common with classic cults than you might think. That is what this show is all about, analyzing and even poking a little bit of gentle fun at the ways that cultishness shows up in places you might not think to look.

Like a glittery empire built on high heels, high drama, and the promise of radical self-transformation. We've been reexamining a lot of culting nostalgic fandoms and media franchises lately on this show including Harry Potter, Playboy, and Nickelodeon. And on that note, we figured it's time to revisit the cult of America's Next Top Model, the glossy TV franchise helmed by Tyra Banks, who positioned herself as a kind of fashion messiah for the reality TV age. Whether she was preaching the gospel of smize or staging emotionally charged makeovers and eliminations, Tyra's influence stretched far beyond the runway, shaping how an entire generation thought about beauty, success, and self-worth.

Ugh, so well put. And today, helping us break down this cult analysis is Sarah Hartshorn. Sarah, lest you forget, is a writer, comedian, and content creator who first shot to fame as the only plus-size contestant on cycle nine of America's Next top model who could forget your face is my childhood. Okay. Well not my childhood I'm not I wish Sarah captured hearts as a fan Favorite and after placing eighth she went on to model for brands like Vogue glamour and sketchers while also writing for the Guardian Teen Vogue, Glamour, and Skechers, while also writing for The Guardian, Teen Vogue, and more multitudes she contains them. Sarah's upcoming memoir, You Wanna Be On Top, a memoir of makeovers, manipulation, and not becoming ANTM, publishes July 8th, 2025 in it.

She delivers a raw and unflinching take on her ANTM experience. Welcome Sarah to Sounds Like a Cult. Oh my God, thank you so much for having me. What an amazing intro. Thank you. Sarah, could you start us off by describing, from this place of retrospect, your relationship to the America's Next Top Model franchise

and how you think it resembles a cult experience? Yes. So man, hindsight really is 20-20. I would say my relationship to the franchise is complicated because on the one hand, it was definitely a traumatizing experience to go through. And now that I do have a little bit of distance, I am able to be like, Oh, I think that might have been a cult, which I know because I was writing this book and I was sort of putting my experiences down on paper. And as I was like reading them, I was sort of putting my experiences down on paper and as I was like reading them I was like, oh that's deeply fucked up.

But it was sort of slow, it was a slow realization. It felt like the wool was being pulled really slowly up off of my eyes and you know I was like talking to other contestants and they were like, oh no I'm fully traumatized and I was like, well I'm not, I'm not traumatized. That'd be crazy and then I was like, oh no, I think I am. And then I read Cultish. And probably halfway through the first chapter, I was like, oh no. And every chapter I was like, oh no.

Just more and more. And I was so grateful because my editor had been like, I think maybe you should read this book. I think it might help your perspective. And she was very gentle, but it very much was like a breakthrough moment where she was like, I think maybe you should read this book. I think it might like help your perspective. And she was very gentle, but it very much was like a breakthrough moment where she was like, okay, thank God. Now we can like get to the real stuff.

Do you know what I mean? Like I had, I now that I had the perspective and the hindsight and the language to describe what happened to me, it really like accelerated the writing process in a really helpful way. So, and then on the other hand, you know, without Top Model, I wouldn't have met all these amazing people that I met.

I wouldn't have this book deal. So it's very complicated and it's very much an experience where I've had to hold to seemingly conflicting truths like a lot in a lot of ways. That sounds like a cult experience to me. This is so surreal to hear. Okay. So we're going to get into the lore and background of ANTM just so listeners listeners know, if you forget or you're not totally familiar, don't worry. We're going to set that stage.

Chelsea, could you actually talk about your relationship to America's Next Top Model as a viewer and now as a reality TV producer? Because Sarah, Chelsea is literally on location right now for a show and like knows this industry inside and out from a producer standpoint and is like so ethical and generous and like thank this industry inside and out from a producer standpoint and is like so ethical and generous and like thank God for her presence in this industry and in the podcasting industry. Literally transforming from the inside.

But Chelsea, I'm so curious to know about how you came of age with regard to America's Next Top Model and also how you see it as someone who works in reality TV. So first of all, Amanda, you're so sweet. Thank you. I will say, Sarah, I, much like a lot of people in my age group watching America's Next Top Model, was obsessed with the show.

Everything Tyra stood for, everything the show stood for, all the things, I was obsessed. I watched every episode and would go to school and talk about it with my friends. And I don't know, I just feel like I related deeply to that industry because there was a part of me that wanted to one day become a model, I guess. So I guess it was inspiring and kind of showed like what I thought at the time was a behind the scenes of like how to break into the fashion industry.

It wasn't until I became an adult and started examining some of the behaviors that were on the show, specifically Tyra. Some of the things that I would say, the colorful language that Tyra used that is in today's age, completely inappropriate. And then I transitioned to a reality TV producer and I started looking at it,

which I know we'll talk about it a little bit later, but the idea that Tyra is this know-all Messiah of like the fashion industry and she's like the gatekeeper to the fashion industry and she's kind of taking people under her wing and showing them the ropes. When really a lot of that, from my perspective, was just a reality TV's way of putting her on this pedestal. Like it kind of felt like, I know she's a fashion model, but like who gave her

the jurisdiction to do all these things. So that's my relationship. It's so interesting. I never thought, because you know, I had this realization of like, oh, that's really culty. A lot of the things that they did are what more traditional like cults did, just in terms of like using really repetitive language

over and over and over again, until it's good. They were totally doing that to viewers as well. And that never even occurred to me. And it's so funny because like from the inside, like Tyra is just this incredibly magnetic person. I'm thinking back and I'm like man she really was constantly like trying to make catchphrases and some of them stuck like smize that you know to this day to this day people who don't watch the show like sort of know that that's a thing you know what I mean like oh my god 100% it like took a seat at the table of everyday English people who've never even heard of the show. Yeah. Know that term. Yeah. Booty toots, not so much,

not as successful, but she said it all the time, trying to like make it a thing. And so I think I had never thought about that, but that's so crazy because there is a language to watching the show. And there is also a feeling of exclusivity, which I think is actually kind of, again, it's one of those like two truths at once. It's kind of positive. One of the things I love about Top Model is that it was not for men. If you said something was for a men's magazine, that's the biggest insult that you could get. It was for the girls and the gays in the days. You know what I mean? Like, I live for that. Yeah. And that is a beautiful community to build, right? Right. At the same time, I think it was harmful to that community. So it's like, again, two truths.

But I loved that about it. It was this place where we could be sexy and we could be in our bodies and we could talk about our bodies and we could even be objectified, but not for men. It felt so much safer. Yes, oh my gosh. Now that we're already unpacking this,

A&TM feels different from other reality TV cult franchises, in large part because of Tyra as that charismatic leader at the helm. Like growing up watching the show and I watched it religiously as well. Unlike Chelsea, I knew modeling was not in my future. Girl. No, I could model for Gap Kids forever, probably.

And so in that way, I think that actually protected me because I actually didn't aspire to be like the women on screen. That protected me growing up, almost in the way that going through puberty really late was frustrating, but also protected me. You know how like girls who get boobs when they're 11 get sexualized young and it can be harmful

as much as I wanted to be perceived as an adult as a young person or like be hot enough to be a model, I think being a late bloomer was actually a good thing. Anywho. See, I thought being an early bloomer meant that I also would never model. Like I had a dance teacher, I got boobs when I was 11 and I was in the ballet class and she was like,

yeah, ballet and modeling are just not gonna be for you. And I was like, okay. And you know, in my head, I was like, whoa. And you know, in my head, I was like, you know, what is so funny is I am bad at ballet. I'm so bad at it. I think that's going to be the biggest obstacle is that I'm not good. It's not my point. Do you know what I mean? It's like tits to feet, feet are the problem. Oh, that is so funny. But yeah, I mean, to your point, ANTM and Tyra, despite the fact that like many cult leaders across this continuum, she is an opportunist. She was not like naturally the fit to be like the leader,

you know, of this whole world. But the reality TV industry and Tyra were a fit. Like she had that charisma, she had that dynamism, and she had that confidence to be like, you know what, why the fuck not me? You know? And on one hand, she did provide, like many cults, good and bad, this alternative space for something exclusive and something new that could be positive to like empower

or pseudo empower people who may not have felt centered before. And yet when someone feels that they deserve that level of power, the way that Tyra so clearly felt like she deserved to be on top. It's like, you want to be on top? No, I'm on top, babe. Like that was Tyra. You will win the photoshoot with me. With me. Literally, like the confidence. It is cult leader-esque and that's what this episode will explore is like what really were the consequences, not just on the contestants and not just on people like us who grew up

watching it, but on body standards, beauty standards, and I guess fashion and media for the years after. I love the phrase pseudo empowered because I think also in turn she was being pseudo empowered by the production companies and by the sponsors while also being pseudo and actually limited and contained and propped up in these very controlling ways that like let them stay behind the scenes. And now what we are seeing is that they are able to avoid accountability and she is bearing the brunt of it.

My jaw is on the ground because obviously there's always going to be like intersectionality with the cult of reality TV. But Tyra is the surface level of what it really, really represents. And to your point, there are so many charismatic leaders in these type shows or whatever, that it's really a larger conversation about who's putting them up there and how they're being controlled as well.

So, amazing point. Yeah, it's like blaming the figurine on a Rolls Royce. You know what I mean? That figurine did not crash the car. Come on, analogy, let's go. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Oh my God. Okay, By not crash the car. Come on analogy. Let's go. Thank you so much. Oh my God. Okay, Bylines and the Guardian. She's worked with editors. She has a literary device ready in her front pocket.

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So America's Next Top Model premiered in May 2003. It was the brainchild of supermodel Tyra Banks, who pitched it as a revolutionary competition to discover the next face of fashion. But as we've already discussed, it was more than a modeling contest. It was Tyra's answer to the reality TV boom of the early 2000s. Merging makeover culture, bootcamp style challenges,

and melodrama with the aspirational allure of high fashion, the show quickly became a cultural juggernaut. It ran for not one, not two, not 10, not 20, but 24 cycles. And did she coin the term cycle? Like who came up with that? It wasn't season, it was cycle. Someone explained to me that it was cycle

because there were often more than one in a calendar year. Per year. Yeah. I can't think of another show that did that. Okay, so it ran for 24 cycles over 15 years. Because there were often more than one in a calendar year. Per year. Yeah. I can't think of another show that did that. Okay, so it ran for 24 cycles over 15 years, first airing on UPN and then later the CW. Okay, early 2000s. This literally is my adolescence.

And it turned Tyra in this very unique way from a model into a multimedia mogul. What started as a platform to launch modeling careers morphed into a voyeuristic spectacle, one that often blurred the lines between empowerment and exploitation. From forced makeovers to problematic photo shoots to emotionally fraught eliminations, A&TM came to represent culty pursuits,

including transformation and control. And while Tyra claimed to uplift diverse beauty standards and one could argue that she succeeded in that, the show was often criticized for reinforcing stereotypes, silencing dissent, and prioritizing spectacle over substance. Another classic cult leader from history that Tyra reminds me in very, very small ways of is Bikram from the Bikram Yoga. Oh, Jesus. Story and journey and cult and documentary on Netflix, if anyone has seen,

because he was this yoga revolutionary and he was inspirational and worshiped on this transcendent level by so many people and brought a lot of good into people's lives. But he, like Tyra, was a master of language and was able to frame verbal abuse as special treatment as something that you were honored to receive because it meant that you were like bathing

in the glow of his perception, you know? And he was obviously extremely body negative and again, was really good at framing all of those things as not abuse or trauma, but as a privilege. And of course, he was literally physically and sexually abusive. So that was different from Tyra, but I'm just thinking of like how certain, you know, really beloved figures who are doing something unique can also take it too far. Yeah, I would argue that some of the conditions on the show were oftentimes physically abusive, just, you know, like denying someone the ability to go to the bathroom. Multiple girls fainted,

like that I saw and was aware of and I once I was one of them or twice once I threw up from like heat stroke and I fainted the first elimination. So like there were extreme physical challenges which were wrapped up in this bow of like you're working so hard. Yes, you're doing so well. Like it's crazy that you can look so good in a photo after you just threw up in the parking lot. A lot of those conditions like you talk about wrapped in

a bow but was it wrapped in a bow under the guise of like competition or were these like extreme like production conditions? It was extreme production conditions. It was wrapped in like oh you're competing you know you're working so hard it's so so hard to, you know, make a television. This also was the height of hustle culture, right? Like, we were about to head into a lot of like work hard, play hard, mugs, a lot of girl boss, a lot of like grind every day. Double wears Prada vibes. They sleep, we grind, like, which, you know, respect to Erika Madu, but I do sometimes sleep. Just a little bit.

Just a little bit. I do love a nap. You know what I mean? Just a...ou, but I do sometimes sleep. Just a little bit. Just a little bit. I do love a nap. You know what I mean? Just a- Quite a little skosh of sleep. Just a little. I say that as I'm tired beyond caffeine, but so it absolutely felt like a give-in, like of course. But also it was these very weird specific production things that could have been prevented. Like I saw a girl collapse because we had been in a hot tub for like three hours to shoot b-roll footage of us quote unquote enjoying the cruise ship. The only time when we shot the first episode, the only time we got to do anything outside of windowless

conference rooms was one afternoon that they set aside. They divided us into four groups. One of us went to the skating rink. One of us went to into four groups. One of us went to the skating rink, one of us went to the climbing wall, one of them went to the hot tub, I was in that group. And the other one went to something weird, maybe the shopping, I'm not sure, but they divided us into these groups and they sent a couple hours setting up the shot

and filming us having a good time enjoying the cruise ship. So we had to sit in this hot tub and two of us were in up to our neck, super hot, and then afterwards I was like, can we go in the pool to cool down? And they were like, I'm so sorry. Like there's about to be a mob because the cruise ship passengers hated us. Like they hated the crew. They hated that they would often shut down, right? The whole pool deck and the hot tub so that they could shoot. So they were like, I'm so sorry. Like you have to go inside. And this girl was like, just, you know, had to be like helped inside

because she'd been sitting and stewing in hot water in 80 degree weather for hours. Okay, so it literally is Bikram hot yoga. Yeah, it is literally hot yoga in water, aquatic hot yoga. It's just the difference is that like, when you see a huge yoga space full of people all dressed the same like worshiping at the altar of this man you think like oh that looks like a cult yeah and when you see like a bunch of beautiful women sweating their

asses off in front of cameras experiencing very similar negative sensations you think like oh no that's not a cult that's entertainment yeah like that's just modeling like and when I got heat stroke, it was because they had us on this bus. So this is also, keep in mind, after I think three days of psychological and physical testing that were very bizarre, very grueling, we never knew where we were going. And it would always be like, okay, you just have to go. Like the story I tell in the book is like, I had to pee and I was like, can I pee? And they were like, no. And I was like and I was like okay but like I'm gonna like this isn't a request anymore like I'm gonna you know what I mean like I have to go and they were like you can pee when we get there and I was like I

will not make it like I like I really have to go now so I peed and then they took me all the way across the hotel and I was like if it helps I definitely wouldn't have made it like this was far enough that I would have peed my pants and they were like it does not help because we knocked on the door someone answered and said can you pee in this cup? And I was like, do you understand how you could have prevented this? They clearly had a policy of like, do not tell them where they're going ever. That's why she wasn't able to say like, if you wait until we get there, then you can pee because there was this policy in place of never tell them where they're going. So it was like, we would show up to a room, maybe it was lunch. Maybe we were sitting and going to talk with a therapist

for an hour. Maybe we were going to do fill in the blank personality testing for two hours for three days. Then we had our blood drawn. We had our hair taken. It was crazy. Yeah. Oh my God. That is like some Guantanamo Bay shit. No, it was really, it was like really crazy. And also we're not allowed to speak for those three days ever. There was a five minute those three days, ever. There was a five-minute period after the physical exam. There was a very small group of us that was left unsupervised for long enough that we could talk. And it was like, we were all bursting, right? We were like, oh my god, how did your physical exam go? Why do you think they took the hair? You know what? We were all

just like, so it's interesting because so many of these rules could be excused as just like production policies. But actually in cults, like Jonestown and Heaven's Gate, there were silent rules or silencing rules so that the followers could not exchange information and organize. And the thing is, is like, I think, you know, at this point we wouldn't, no one wanted to leave. We all still desperately, we were all in, we were all in, were all in but it was so intense and so weird and so off putting that we were never able to get our bearings and I think that was 100% the purpose and it was so surreal so we weren't able to talk to each other for three days. We were never all

together they kept us in groups like moving us around and then it was time to film so it was like the third or fourth day and they were like okay we're gonna film and we knew that that meant we'd be allowed to talk so we were so excited so they heard us onto this, we're gonna film and we knew that that meant we'd be allowed to talk. So we were so excited. So they heard us onto this bus, we're allowed to talk. So we're like, Oh my God, who are you? What's your deal? And so we seem super animated and super excited, right? Our emotions are over the top because we have three days worth pent up. So we're so I think that also was the purpose of like, get them really, you know, in an emotional space. And then they blindfolded us and we had to drive through these windy roads in San Juan, Puerto Rico to get to the cruise ship.

But we didn't know that. We just knew we were blindfolded on a bus getting greener and greener at every turn. And then we had to sit blindfolded on the bus with no air conditioning. They kept saying, you know, five more minutes, five more minutes. We think it was around an hour, maybe more. Oh my God, you're like so disoriented. five more minutes. We think it was around an hour, maybe more. Oh, my God, you're like so disoriented. Literally. Yeah. It's torture.

This is like whispered where we're like, how long has it been? And someone was like, well, I think they've said five more minutes, like seven times. So that's like what? Like, you know what I mean? We were like trying to do math that way. None of we weren't allowed to have watches. We don't know what time it is. It was so crazy. So then they lead us off the bus, still blindfolded.

And we have to stand in this parking lot. And that's when I got heat stroke and I ended up like throwing up because we had to stand and we didn't even really know how much sun we were in because we were freaking blindfolded. And it's one of those things where when you watch it, it just looks like, Oh my God, they blindfolded them. That's so funny. And then they revealed the cruise ship.

And I just, I was sitting there thinking like my dad, when I was like, Oh, I have this contract, I need you to sign, I'm going to go film an episode of top model. And he was like, I think you are being sold into human trafficking. And I was like, Dad, it's not human trafficking. It's like a real thing. It's a real show. I was like, it's a real contract. He was like, Yeah, there's a lot of contracts and trafficking. I was like, Dad, stop it. You're being so lame. Like, oh, my God. I was

sitting on this tarmac, blindfolded with 30 other girls, not allowed to talk. And I was like, if he was right, I am going to be so mad. I will be so mad. And then they took the blindfold off and it's Miss J. And I was like, oh, thank God he was wrong. You know what I mean? Sort of wrong.

Yeah, yeah, you're like, come see, come saw. Do you know what I mean? Do you know what I mean? Chelsea, I have to ask you, come see, come saw. Do you know what I mean? Do you know what I mean? Oh my God. Chelsea, I have to ask you, would procedures like this ever happen today? So all right, yes, they would. I have been just spinning because I am infuriated by your bathroom story. You're talking about the power dynamics

that comes from the top, AKA the production company, which instilled a lot of fear on the producers that you were probably working with. And because there is no way in hell, yes, I understand the element of surprise. Some of those practices are still used today. A lot of shows don't allow cast to interact because they want an authentic reaction to each other on camera. But I mean, when it's not explained to people before

that happens, then it does seem a little okay, that's a little sus. Why would you want us to all be silenced? The blindfolding thing, outrageous, never would have happened. If I was producing on there, I would have never said, oh no, you can't use the restroom. I would have made a way. But it's a larger conversation about who's afraid to speak up against the man, you know? And that is just disgusting. And I'm happy that we're moving away from a lot of those practices because that's like some OG, like disgusting reality TV practices. I mean, whenever an industry is in its like,

nescient wild west period, a lot of fucked up shit goes down. And what a privilege, we talk about this all the time on this show, but what a privilege to be in power at the very, very, very top, like an executive above all of the producers who are working on set, certainly above the contestants and then of

course certainly above the viewers, and have no face and have nobody know your name and get to make all the decisions. Like those people are the actual cult leaders. And then you're right, Tyra is the figurine on the Rolls Royce. I do think though that we should talk about her role as a charismatic leader of sorts within the ANTM cult franchise because it had such an effect on everyone who crossed paths with her or even watched her on screen. So at the heart of America's Next Top Model stood its charismatic leader, Tyra Banks. The classic image of a cult features an alluring yet controlling and often hypocritical

leader. Sarah, what elements of Tyra's persona and behavior, do you think represented cult leader energy for better or for worse? Man, that's a great question. First of all, let me actually back up and zoom out even a little bit more. When people find out that I'm on top model, the question that they always ask is what was Tyra like? And I think that speaks to how tied in she is and just how enigmatic a person she is and compelling and riveting. And I will say in person, it's not just that she's beautiful. She is. She is so magnetic.

You just want to look at her always. If she is in the room, you want to look at her. And it was one of those things where even at the time when I was on the show, I was so not aware and I was so shielded and I was in such a mode of defending myself constantly because I just everything was surreal nothing was familiar and so I found that I very much reverted to my early childhood self and when I talked to other girls about it which was rare because my very early childhood self was painfully shy and did not talk to people but when I was able to like reach out to other girls I found that that was true as well and they were like I feel like a child and we would say that all the time and it's

funny that you mentioned like the power dynamics on set, because the dynamics very much felt like the associate producers and the PAs and the crew handlers, anyone who was in production below a certain level that wasn't like filming us very much felt like our older siblings and the producers, the production companies were our parents that we would never dare defy. We were terrified of them, but we were constantly poking at the crew because they were our older siblings and it was okay. And they were also in it with us kind of, you know what I mean? And we could sense that.

I see the look of recognition on Chelsea's face. Yeah. They felt like our siblings, our older siblings who did have power and did have privileges that we didn't have, but they were so much more accessible to us. And also they were clearly like being impacted by the same dynamics that we were. So that very much was a dynamic we were working with. But it's like, the thing I always say about Tyra is I have no idea what she is really like.

And I think she is very guarded. I am a standup comedian, so I am around a lot of performers of all kinds. So I've seen a lot of people who turn it on when they go on stage or who turn it on when they're on camera. And I've even seen people who like have a public-facing persona, but I've never seen someone who holds it as tight as Tyra does. Wow. Damn. I remember this moment where she was in the room with us. It was, I think, the only moment that she was in the room with us where there were no cameras or where the cameras weren't on and they had to reset something.

So most of the crew was gone. And she said, okay, now it's just us girls. Now we can be ourselves. And I was like, who can? Yeah. Who can be themselves? Whoa. Is it in the room with us now?

Because we're all on edge. We're all real, real nervous. Yeah. And you don't seem like you're yourself either Like I don't know who yourself is. I know that's not it. And I think like When she talks about like she has a very tight-knit crew. She has her mom, you know She has like one or two very close friends. I think those are the people they got to see her for who she is And that is really it. Well, it's really a philosophical question about like who is any of us really?

Well, it's really a philosophical question about like, who is any of us really? Who are we with? No, honestly, I can't imagine how a figure like Tyra, especially hearing how like extreme that persona work was with her. I can't imagine how much of a mind fuck even connecting to her most unmitigated self, whoever the fuck that was, could be. Because like, I already struggle with it. You know what I mean? Say it. I would love to have our persona and I would love to be mysterious. I haven't ever done it. Me neither.

But I've got to assume it's not. Never. It looks comforting. The way I would love to be mysterious, I could never. I could never. Truly not for one's sake. People are like, oh my God, it's so great that you wrote this book. Like, you know, what's the purpose of it and what, like, what do you want to accomplish?

And I'm like, I really want to say that I was like, it's time and it's an important message. That shit was coming out of me. I am a compulsive oversharer. You know what I mean? I happen to get super lucky to get a literary agent and an editor who helped, but like, you know, they direct it. That ain't luck, honey., they, they direct it. That ain't luck, honey. That's what my husband says.

I did get so lucky with my literary agent. She just slid into my Twitter DMs, but she did after I was telling the story on TikTok and sharing and experiencing TikTok, which is also a great addition to the conversation about cults, because it feels like, culty overshell to a breeding ground of other cults. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't know, some type of fungus that breeds other funguses. But yeah, but like I was sharing this.

It is the mother fungus. It is the mother fungus. That truly sees me for who I am like no other app. No, Father Algorithm is the cult leader to end all cult leaders. Yeah. That truly sees me for who I am like no other app. No father algorithm is The cult leader to end all cult leaders. Yeah when I see a video that I don't like on tik-tok I'm like what happens who I know daddy Attention at my gorgeous angel sweeties who rent their homes. If you have not heard of built, listen carefully. You can earn your favorite airline miles and hotel points through built just by paying

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Make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you. Joinbilt.com slash colt to sign up for BILT today. Hey, so what did you want to talk about? Well, I want to tell you about Wigovie. Wigovie? Yeah, Wigov you want to talk about? Well, I want to tell you about Wagovi. Wagovi? Yeah, Wagovi. What about it? On second thought, I might not be the right person

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Ask your doctor for W go be my name. This is what go be.ca for savings exclusions may apply. It's so interesting that you say that Tyra was so guarded and that you feel like few people even know who she is, because I really do feel like that contributes to her mythology. And we have a few more sentiments about that. So Tyra wasn't just the host. She was the visionary, she was the judge, the mentor, the myth.

Her power was almost godlike. Tyra cast herself as both fashion savior and tough love matriarch, delivering sermons and stilettos and casting out praise or punishment with a smile or smize. Her catchy in group rhetoric, smize, booty tooch, ugly pretty became gospel. Her approval, the ultimate prize. And like any cult leader, her contradictions were rarely questioned.

Tyra created a universe where submission to her vision was framed as growth. And the further contestants bent to fit that vision, the more they were praised as high fashion. As we know in most cult-like structures, the one charismatic leader usually imposes a rigid doctrine that all cult followers must follow. This cult exploration is a little unique

because there's some intersectionality with the cult of reality TV, meaning a lot of the personality traits of Tyra were amplified for the sake of ratings and views. Sarah, in your opinion, how do you think the larger cult of reality TV encouraged Tyra to become cultier as a leader? Wow, that's another great question. I think that the cult of reality TV is very much what, A, made the show what it was, which was different from what I think Tyra set out to do. If the lore is to be believed,

which I do believe that she had the idea and she worked with Mr. J and other industry insiders to like bring this to light, like she had this idea of mentoring models to become successful fashion world figures, but it very quickly was, I would maybe argue, contaminated by this idea of good TV, reality TV. And that is what pulled it away from the intention. After the show, when I was meeting with agencies and I was showing them my pictures, they were like, these are beautiful,

but you have to get new pictures for your books. You can't use these. You can put them in the back maybe if you want, but we can't see what you look like because when you bring a book to a client, you need to bring photos that show off your body exactly as it is and your face exactly as it is. So all of the things that make top model photo shoots

so great for TV, the elaborate sets and the crazy costumes and the beautiful makeup that was like artistry, but they make it actually not very useful in the modeling world. And that is outside of any preconceptions that anyone in the fashion world might have had about reality TV and whether they wanted to work with people. I was lucky in some ways because after the show,

I was pursuing a career in plus-size fashion Which at the time was a lot more separated and segregated from regular fashion So there was no like oh she was on a reality show so she can't model for JCPenney You know what I mean? They don't give a crap. There's no like oh people know who she is So that's a bad thing and also I looked so different because the other thing that happened is they cut off all my hair I think for the pursuit of good TV Also, I looked so different because the other thing that happened is they cut off all my hair. I think for the pursuit of good TV, I don't think that that was a fashion or model related decision.

And because when I went to agencies, they were like, come back in a year when your hair is long. We can't have a plus size model with short hair. So part of that is that I think they don't know anything about the plus size industry because like I said, at the time it was so separate and different and they just didn't know but also I think they wanted me to cry because I had like homeschool long hair you know what I mean it was like too long and they were like I remember I remember your makeover so well yeah they were like she's gonna cry for sure they also punked Heather and it was the most uncomfortable moment of all of filming it was crazy so they

did this thing where they showed the pictures of us and they use like CGI to morph us into what our makeover was going to be, which at the time we were like, technology, we are women in STEM, like what is happening? And so they show all the makeovers they did Heather last and they showed the CGI morphing into her with a tiny little mohawk and like everybody just like immediately looked to her to see what her reactionhawk. And everybody just immediately looked to her to see what her reaction was gonna be.

And I talked to her about it, I interviewed her for the book and she was like, they definitely thought the autistic girl was gonna cry. They thought I was gonna freak out. But she and I had actually talked about it a couple days earlier, we were both like, yeah, they can cut off all my hair, I don't care. I hope they do.

And she was like, yeah, I wanna be edgy. I feel like I'm an edgy person but I don't look like an edgy person. So maybe they maybe they'll give you, you know, and so they made her think that they were going to cut all her hair off. And she was like, Oh, awesome. It was so uncomfortable. Tyra goes, Oh, well, um, that is just a joke. We're actually not going to do that at all. Was that like a spitball? Did she like improvise that because the reaction wasn't good? Or? Yeah, because they thought she was going to freak out. And then they'd be like, just kidding, we're not.

But instead they had to be like, well, sorry you liked it. We're not doing that. Oh my god. So when you watch Heather's reaction, it's just sort of like, they had to edit the whole thing out. And you can even hear, if you watch the episode, you can hear that Tyra had to go in and record a voiceover because she was so rattled. And that's another way that I know she had a persona because I'd never seen her

rattled. And it was so weird because she was like, well, you know, okay. So, you know, she doesn't have a lot of the speaking mannerisms that a lot of people have. She doesn't say, she doesn't say like she's very well-spoken and composed. So to see her fumbling and Mr. J, clustered and Mr. J too was like, well, we're just going to leave it as is because we really like your hair. And she was like, oh, okay. So when you watch it looks very confusing because she's sort of disappointed. Then they had to go in and rerecord a voiceover. That is so interesting. I had absolutely no idea. And maybe it's only because I just watched the rehearsal and I'm in the cult of Nathan Fielder, but I feel like Nathan Fielder is the only person

other than Tyra who's managed to like successfully live and breathe their persona 24 hours a day. Yeah. Okay, so I'm so glad you told that story because I do feel like aesthetics in general, but specifically hair and hair transformation by force is an underrated pattern that comes up in cults. but specifically hair and hair transformation by force is an underrated pattern that comes up in cults. Like in the cult that my dad spent his teenage years in,

Synanon shaved heads as a form of punishment, but also solidarity was a real centerpiece. And that is true in so many, like in Heaven's Gate, everybody had to shave their head. And it really is a canonical cult symbol of conformity and control. And that is true in the America's Next Top Model universe as well.

The sort of aesthetic doctrine as we, the viewers saw it, often distorted contestants appearances in the name of fashion that seemed to be framed as rites of passage, but in practice they were tools not only of entertainment but of control. Contestants were frequently forced to undergo radical physical changes including shaved heads, dying hair, bleached blonde, donning prosthetic teeth, or even darkening their skin for controversial photo shoots. The makeover moment was always framed as empowering, but Sarah, in your experience,

did that physical transformation affect contestants in a way that you perceive as culty? 100%. And I know that because at the time I was so in, they could have done anything they wanted to me. And I think I wrote that in my journal at the time, and I really believed it. Partially because I was like, it's a free haircut. Like I don't care what happens,

it is free. You know what I mean? Like you're like, oh, I don't care that I'm eating this rat poisoned pizza. It's free food. It is free food. Oh boy. Is that an apt analogy? 100% every time we had crafty, I was like, I don't care. It is free. I will be stealing snacks in my giant oversized of the moment purse. Because you're so young. You're so young too. So young, so poor, so dumb. I mean, I'm from a town of 685 people. I did not have TV growing up. I had a moment on the cruise ship where they were like, you've all seen models walking the runway. And I realized that the only models I'd seen walking the runway were the models on the one cycle of top model I'd watched before I was on the show. And I was like, oh, I'd seen

pictures and magazines, of course, but I was like, I have not. And I think also what speaks to this is we know the exact script that a contestant is supposed to do to like respond quote unquote, correctly to a makeover, right? They're supposed to say, I will do whatever it takes. If this is what it takes to be America's Next Top Model, then I'm going to do it even if I don't like it. That's the ideal makeover reaction. And so anytime I think there's like a script that you are supposed to follow that then when you are in the moment and faced with the reality of changing your body is often different. And it's also like all these supposed to follow that then when you are in the moment and faced with the reality of changing

your body is often different. And it's also like all these expectations and all this pressure, right? And like, also, I mean, I look back on so Bianca was on my cycle, and they were going to give her really long blonde hair. And then her hair was too damaged. So they had to shave it off. At the time, I 100% bought that narrative. I now have a lot of friends who have gotten their hair dyed and have not needed to shave their head even with really damaged hair. You know what I mean? And then they gave her what they called a medical grade wig. And lace fronts existed at the time. Do you know what I mean? It wasn't like they gave her this wig that looked bad. And I don't know

what medical grade means in regards to wigs. I've never heard that phrase. Literally never heard that phrase. Like, you know what I mean? Like give her a wig. Like just give her a wig. Medical grade. Medical grade. Like the medical condition is that she had to get a makeover on a reality show? Is that the diagnosis? Where's the doctor? I would like to speak to the doctor. Do you know what I mean? Can we call in the surgeon? I'm sorry. There's Mr. J. Is there also Dr. J?

I do not think so. Exactly. What are we doing? Oh my God. It's so interesting because it sounds like due to factors, not only just the pressure of being in that makeover environment, but also the cameras. It sounds like the goal was to get the contestants to like disconnect from their actual wants and conform.

Yes. Like you're just like, I'll do whatever, I'll do whatever. And that is so insidious. So speaking of the script, as we all know, every cult has its own insiderly lingo, a coded system of loaded buzzwords, thought terminating cliches, us versus them labels, and more, to help build belonging while subtly enforcing division. And America's next top model was no different. Fashion critiques were often delivered in vague, paradoxical terms like, you look too commercial, but not relatable, or you need more edge, but stay soft.

And these contradictions were almost like linguistic gaslighting, leaving contestants confused and anxious, always striving but never sure what was actually being asked of them, like a Scientologist ascending a hierarchy of convoluted levels along the bridge to total freedom but never fully understanding how to go clear. For Vox, journalist Constance Grady described the show's language as quote, a fun house mirror version of empowerment, speaking in buzzwords while stripping the contestants of agency.

In the cult of America's Next Top Model, language didn't just communicate fashion advice, it reprogrammed identity. So Sarah, how do you think the signature language served to divide America's Next Top Model contestants and even fans into insiders and outsiders? And do you think that these trademark buzzwords and things glamorized or even camouflage destructive parts of the culture in any way? It definitely glamorized destructive parts of the culture, right? Like, and I think actually

what's so interesting to me is all of those buzzwords and all of those things, those were for the audience. And from the inside, we were very aware of it, but it was directed at us. So we had to like interpret it and sort of turn it around for the audience. And this really interesting right, like you're at panel and you're being critiqued, you're facing the judges, but you know, you're very much like aware that you're participating in this language that viewers are gonna watch and then process. But what's so interesting to me is that like the language that they use to indoctrinate us into the cult never even made it to air. Like it was not ever part of the audience's experience. Like for me when I think of the culty language of America's Next Top Model,

I think of the phrase that they used when they were not filming. So when we filmed the first episode, and I talk about this a lot in the book, and I really go into it in depth, but like I said, we had the one afternoon of the B-roll footage of us, quote unquote, enjoying the ship. The rest of the time that we were on the ship, if we were not filming for fully, I want to say like between seven and 10 days, I can't remember exactly how long the cruise was. We were in windowless cruise ship conference rooms and we were being lectured. We were either sitting and waiting for hours, not able to talk, or we were being lectured by in this order. I want to say it was the production companies and then it was the lawyers. It was a team of lawyers and then it was the

network executives for hours and hours. And they used, they all used the same phrases over and over and over again until when I was interviewing other contestants because I was like I must be remembering wrong surely it wasn't days surely it wasn't hours at a time and they were all like no man it was it was hours and it was days and they all used that language they were like no no I was really afraid and the phrases were we will garnish your wages for the rest of your life. And it never deviated. It was never we will take a percentage of your earnings.

I just got a chill. Right. It was we will garnish your wages for the rest of your life. We will sue you. We will sue your children. We will sue your children's children. We will sue your children's children's children until we get five million dollars. And I didn't even really think of the language until I was talking to Jenna. And I was like, it was like hours. Right. And she was like, dude, I was terrified that they were going to garnish my wages for the rest talking to Jenna. And I was like, it was like hours, right? And she was like, dude, I was terrified that they were going to garnish my wages for the rest of my life.

And I was like, oh, my God. I mean, what? 13 years later or how many years later, that phrase is still in our brains. Oh, that is so threatening. Yeah. So scary. And the other phrase that they used over and over again is this opportunity is what you make of it. And there are a million girls that would kill to be here and we have their phone numbers. Wow. So they all like unified to collaborate on those phrases. Yes.

Which is so strategic and so manipulative. And I am just so sorry. That was really the thing that clicked when I was reading your book is I was like, oh, they use language. They had a couple days to do it. And so they had to really precedence and we were not allowed to speak. We're not allowed to talk to each other. We never knew where we were going. And we heard those phrases over and over again. And there were also there were other subtle things like we were all in tank tops and shorts and you know, cruise ship attire. We actually didn't know we didn't know we were going to be on a cruise and we didn't know where we were going, but they did say the Caribbean. So we were packed, we were

dressed for the Caribbean and we were all like sprawled all over these conference rooms, you know, on the floor and sort of like leaning because we, a lot of times we would have to sit there for hours before they would even come in. So we were all sort of like drooping, you know, like wilted flowers is sort of like, yeah. And they would come in in their crisp professional attire. So the hierarchy was very clearly represented. Immediately, yes, yeah and the only way to get fresh air was to smoke a cigarette ironically and I still remember the woman that would always take us out for a cigarette was like very visibly pregnant and we were like I'm so sorry like I'm so sorry I don't want to blow smoke at you like I'm so sorry like can it be someone and I was like how if I

had to be having now been pregnant, I'm like, if I was like six, seven months pregnant on a cruise ship with a bunch of whiny brats smoking, blowing cigarettes smoke in my face and crying about it, like I would do a little- I would sue their children. I would sue their children. It's just what keeps coming to mind

as you describe all of these harrowing details is that there are so many and your time was so colonized by fuckery that it's like you didn't have time to question things. You didn't have time to critique because it was just like where to begin. Yeah. Which is a cult tactic. And also shh don't talk. No. Period.

Okay. Let's get a little deeper and then we're gonna play a game. Sarah, what you were just talking about and like the psychological toll is a perfect segue to what I wanted to transition to. So here's where it all stops being funny. Where it was, it stopped being funny a long time ago, first of all, because beneath the glitter and tyroisms

was a very real psychological toll. Contestants have come forward in recent years sharing experiences of eating disorders, PTSD, and public humiliation. The show seemed to have framed breakdowns as breakthroughs and packaged emotional unraveling as fierce transformation. So Sarah, in an Entertainment Weekly piece, you said, quote, "'More girls fainted than made it to the top three,'

which really hits hard. You described extreme conditions, long shoot days, limited food, limited sleep, as being totally normalized on set. Looking back, do you feel like that environment was intentionally designed to break contestants down? And what impact did that have on your mental and physical health both during and after filming? Yeah, I do 100% think it was intentional to keep us on edge, make sure that our reactions were more oversized.

It was all in the pursuit of good TV. And for so many years, I believed that that made it worth it and that that excused it. And I think a lot of us did and would even, you know, hearing the experience and still to this day, when I talk about my experiences, I get a lot of people who are like, you are on TV, that's an opportunity. If you couldn't make the most of it, that's on you. And there's still this idea that the carrot that they offered, which is being on TV and the idea of fame, which is in itself a cult, that makes it worth it and that excuses it. And I really did believe it for years.

I mean, people would say like, was she terrible? I heard Tyra was terrible, especially when the thing came out about her talk show. They were like, oh, I heard she was terrible. Is she terrible? I was like, no, of course not. It was a great opportunity. And I parroted the phrases that I'd been fed. And it can be

embarrassing it can be hard to admit like I was suckered into a cult and I don't know if that's part of why I denied it or why I sort of blocked myself from believing that but like I wrote whole ass articles that I look back on in cringe because I was still so much in the thick of believing that it was worth it to make good TV and it was the only way to make good TV. And then Great British Bake Off came out and we were like, oh, we can watch people have a nice time. Right, such a good point.

It's so fun. And like, do I think modeling is as interesting as baking cakes? No, but that's because I modeled for seven years so other people might, you know what I mean? Right, right, right. I still can't bake a cake. So, you know, that's all mystery to me.

That's pulling the wool back on an industry I am fascinated to see. Actually, you saying that literally has like flicked on a light in my brain because like I am so conditioned by the cult of American reality TV. Like my tolerance for entertainment is so high that I can like barely enjoy British reality TV

because it's not as, like, abusive. Like, I swear to God. It's so fucked up. And I have been, like, deconstructing. I avoid reality TV these days. I mean, I'm still in the cult of Shark Tank, and, like, I was in the cult of dance moms and all these things. But, like, I really have been thinking, like,

this is some American-ass bullshit that I need to be more critical about. Yeah. And I think it is a very American thing. I mean, two British reality stars committed suicide after they were on the show and Britain rewrote the laws and completely upended the industry by requiring that there was a lot more mental health support for reality contestants and a lot more than two American reality stars have committed suicide and died as a result of the mental health issues that I'm not gonna say they were caused by the show, but they certainly were exacerbated and that's certainly my experience, right? Like I had raging body dysmorphia. I had a ton of self-esteem issues before I went on the show I always say it was like a cat just threatening to knock my body dysmorphia off the shelf

into a full-blown eating disorder. But fully the producers were encouraging that cat. And the really common thing that at least the girls on my cycle kept experiencing was this loss of a sense of self because we were trying so hard to be what the producers wanted that it became very, very difficult to tune in to ourselves and what we wanted.

And we sacrificed our own desires in the name of good TV and in the name of like existing in this crazy. Like I remember on my side, so on my cycle, Ebony said that she wanted to go home and she asked to go home because she missed her family. We were all shocked. And the thing that shocked me was like, how did she even think that that was an option?

It never would have occurred to me. I had so many moments where I wanted to go home, but it never would have occurred to me to say anything. And Victoria too was constantly like bucking up against the producers and rebelling in these ways where I was like, it literally has been kind of beaten out of me that that's even an option.

And it was so like crazy. I mean, the cult box that that checks off is the high barrier to exit. Yeah. Sky high exit costs. And Ebony was punished so hard in such cruel ways for trying to exit because she wanted to leave and because she missed her family.

They kept her, so after you get eliminated, you actually don't get sent home, you're put in a hotel room that you were not given the key to and you were not allowed to leave. And they kept her alone in a hotel room for almost a full month. They kept her all the way to the end. She had to walk in the finale runway show because she wanted to leave. And they did that to punish her. I guess with all the knowledge that we now know about solitary confinement and the psychological toll that takes on anyone.

I can't even believe that they would think that that's acceptable to do to somebody. That's disgusting. I interviewed the executive producer who said that they did that, and he still feels good about that decision. He said it like it was a fun joke. I interviewed a contestant who was a little bit anxious about sharing some of her experiences and went over a lot of like, anything you say is off the record is fine. Anything that you say and then change your mind, let me know. I will send you like clips. And so I worked

really hard. I worked really hard not to repeat the mistakes of the show. So I was talking to Kimberly Lemons and she was like, listen, put this on the record. I told the shrink after I got eliminated, cause after we got eliminated, you have to have a phone call with the psychologist that we'd talked to before the show. And she was like, I told her, I am not okay. I am devastated. I feel like my world is collapsing. And then they put her in a hotel room alone for a month and a half.

I only had to be in the hotel room for two weeks. And it's so funny. There were so many things. Still. I know, which is not nothing. And no, and it's, I was talking to Claire Unabia, who was on cycle 10. And she was like, see, I would love that now. Right? I'm a mom of two kids. I would love two weeks in a hotel room alone. I don't have to leave. But then I was going crazy. I wanted to get out. And I was like, yeah, I loved it then. And there were so many things that were designed to like torture me that I was like, yeah, I loved it then. And there were so many things that were designed to like torture me that I was like, this is awesome.

See, and cults affect everybody differently. But I was like, yeah, I'm such an introvert that I'm like, yeah, leave me in a hotel room. I don't care. I don't need the key. Where am I going to go? I got a lot of thoughts to think. Okay. 20 years in a Swedish prison.

Yum. It's a retreat. But a lot of the girls were going freaking crazy. And it never even occurred to me that that was like, A, part of the control, A was a punishment. Like, and they were just so, you know, they cut my hair off. They thought I'd cry. That didn't work.

So they dressed me up as trash and they were like, how do you feel being trash? Do you feel sad that other people got these cool, glamorous outfits and you have to be trash? And I was like, no, it's so fun. I'm going to go jump in the trash bags. Like it just, like truly a lot of times was too stupid to hurt. You were a problematic producers worst nightmare, you know?

Oh, what a flex. In so many ways that I wish I could take responsibility and ownership of, but absolutely truly was just like, and you know, at a certain point I was, you know, there'd they would be like, oh well Lisa says that she doesn't think you belong here And I was like, I also think that That's so crazy. We have that in common. That is iconic The ultimate cult leaders troll you're just like I was like that's a great point No, no prize once I did finally clue in where I was like, that's a great point. No, surprise. Once I did finally clue in where I was

like, okay, they want me to like talk badly about other girls. And I would never do it. And I would spout whale and shark facts at them. And they were like this. I love that. Thank you for providing these serviceable and actionable defense. Like nuggets of wisdom. Yeah, the Norwegian shark can live up to 500 years. That's a fun fact that you can just... Oh, period. Thank you so much. Next time someone tries to indoctrinate me, I'm gonna use that as my number one defense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me tell you, it will not work by itself, but I think you've got some other good tools in your toolbox. Definitely got indoctrinated, but also had a lot of fun, shark and whale. I was like, listen, I was built for this.

I can make it to the finale with these shark facts. You know what I mean? I was born for this. I was born for this. Okay. Before we transition to the bait and switch aspect of America's Next Top Model, I do have a quick question. We talked so much about Tyra Banks and what she represents.

Janice Dickinson, she was the real villain. What is this redemption arc that she had? She wasn't on my cycle, but like the clips that I've seen, I'm like, that is unforgivable. Why are we on the Janice train? I do not fully support cancel culture, but Janice, goodbye. We should let her go. We should put her on an iceberg.

Yes. She was like the Ann Coulter of fashion. Yes. Down to the confusing facial surgery. Like truly problematic. Okay. It's just like so wild. I had to get that off.

Bless you for bringing that up. Thank you. Thank you for addressing the up. Thank you. Thank you for addressing the shrunken, petrified elephant in the room. Yeah, it's true. You're welcome. There is this weird redemption arc

that she's given that Tyra's not. And I'm like, I am noting that. It's almost like the redemption arc that George W. Bush has been given now that he's a painter. It's like, we should not forget. Stop making these hope cores of him and Michelle Obama giving each other. That's enough. No, and also that's a nice lady talking to a man who doesn't know where he is.

He doesn't. That's not a beautiful Roman. That is history's dumbest war criminal. Give him another pretzel. Okay. All right. So I want to transition a little bit to the bait and switch aspect of America's Next Top Model. So A&TM promised transformation, but what it really offered was a tightly controlled illusion of success.

Contestants believe they were getting a launch pad for their careers, but as Sarah and so many others have revealed, the contracts were restrictive. The industry support was flimsy at best and the exposure often caused more harm than good. It's the classic cult-like bait and switch, love bombing up front, and disillusionment when the cameras stop rolling. So Sarah, one thing that feels especially culty about America's Next Top Model is how it offered this shiny promise of fame and fashion success, but behind the scenes, the actual rewards were vague or non-existent.

Did you feel like there was a bit of bait and switch happening and how did that illusion of opportunity impact your life after the show ended? I mean, I think the biggest example of the bait and switch was the hair, right? Like they cut all my hair off with the idea that that would make me into more of a model. And when I went to meet with agencies, they were like, grow your hair out, come back in a year. And some people can afford to wait for a year to work. I could not. And that

was not an option for me. And it was not an option for a lot of us. Also not for nothing. But the show cost me all of my savings. And I was so stone cold broke after it because when they put you in that hotel, after you get eliminated, they no longer give you a stipend for food. What? Yeah, what? That is inhumane. Like, you're kidding me. I'm a prisoner? They bought me a week's worth of food and kept me there for two weeks. Oh, okay.

And I'm not saying like, oh, I ate a lot. Like that makes it sound like they gave me a certain amount of food that I could have rationed. They told me to shop. They were like, we will pay for your groceries. And I was like, how many groceries should I get? And they were like, get a week's worth. And so I got a week's worth.

That ran out. Oh my God. Yeah. And I was like, how many groceries should I get? And they were like, get a week's worth. And so I got a week's worth, that ran out. Oh my God. Yeah, and you're not working. You have no income. No income, no nothing. So I completely depleted my savings. And when I was in the audition process, they were like, tell us about the blueberry farm.

Can you ask Tyra to not make you go work on the blueberry farm again? And you know, I did this big like dramatic, like please don't make me go back to the blueberry farm. It's so boring. Do you know how many blueberry muffins there are in Massachusetts? I do.

And it was the whole thing. And then after the show, I was so broke, I had to go work on the blueberry farm. Oh my God. I didn't have enough money to get gas in my car to make it up the hill to the farm. I had to like scrounge for change in my mom's couch. And I mean, I think that is one thing

that the show does have in common with the fashion world. There's this idea that it's so glamorous, but modeling is a freelance gig like anything else. And it has all these financial barriers to enter that agencies use to manipulate young girls who want to be a model, right? Like you go and they say, OK, you have to do this to your hair. You have to get test shoots. Don't worry. We'll pay for it. And then we'll just take it out of your first paychecks. So yeah, that's something that the show has in common with the modeling industry, but there's so much bait and switch.

And I think like nobody goes on to top model with the idea that success is guaranteed. But the show does work against your success in ways that I think are insidious and not even just the things that are on camera, like the makeovers and the photos that then, right, I went to the agencies and they were like, I guess you can- Useless. Yeah, useless. I mean, like nice photos that you have, but not useful in your book.

And so there are amazing top model success stories, but there's amazing success stories in every call, just enough to keep the hope alive that you will keep participating. So true, Sarah. Holy shit. So true. Yeah. Sarah, thank you for sharing that. You, you, you. Tea. Fucking tea. You ate with that one little thing, Sarah. You ate enough. Thank you. Piffy. Piffy as hell. So I want to throw a question out to the group.

What do you think are some of the lasting culty effects of America's Next Top Model on the broader culture? And what's the most responsible thing moving forward as fashion lovers and reality TV consumers slash producers now that we know this whole America's Next Top Model cult story. I mean, I can't really speak to the lasting effects on the audience just because I was inside it. So it's hard for me to separate what's my experience. And also, I totally understand that Top Model was a cultural phenomenon, but it was my whole world for so long that it's hard to know how much is confirmation bias there.

But I can say, if I to like say, okay, producers, this would be a game changing thing that would help contestants. And what I think be positive is I think that we should have been paid for our time and labor. Like we didn't get paid. We don't get any residuals. And it's not like the money wasn't there. It's not like the money wasn't being made. It's not like they couldn't afford it. And also, I mean, pay for better wigs and better hair. They got the money for that too. Uh-huh.

And yeah, I think it just ties into hustle culture, patriarchy, capitalism. Like, all of those are raging within the culture. So it's hard to know, yeah, what's top model and what's the larger systems. Yeah, I totally agree. I think A&TM was just sort of like one paint sample on a palette of negative examples for girls in the

early to mid 2000s regarding body image and hustle culture. ANTM definitely glamorized being in fierce ruthless competition with other women in a way that I imagine affected me growing up, for sure. What do you think, Chelsea? Obviously, I just keep thinking about the producing aspect and hearing your stories about the conditions on set. Like I said, obviously, this was prior to my existence in the industry, but it reminds me why it's so important to always challenge the why when I'm in these spaces and to always just stand up for people who honestly, when you come to these experiences, these shows, a lot of these people do not have any prior experience on a set or know

that they can ask for things. It infuriates me to hear your stories about where you come from and then being thrown into this and how they took advantage of that. And I want to challenge myself to just be the voice and tell the people that are up here it's a no and this is why. I would say that my biggest flex and I know a lot of people can't say this but every time I end a show all my cast members reach out to me and say, thank you for being a listening ear. Thank you for being the buffer between me and the executives.

And it reminds me why our role is so important. So first of all, thank you, Sarah, for being vulnerable enough to share your story with us. Because there are a lot of people that are fucking scared to say yeah it's true it's funny it doesn't always feel vulnerable but then I remember they could sue me for five billion dollars yes they could but also they won't yeah knock wood they won't they won't but also I do want to say like I am excited to have someone like you in the industry because I think where the real change is gonna happen is when you advance and

when you make it farther and farther and you have more and more positions of power. Like, when you are one of the executives, or I mean, I don't know, I don't wanna speak to your career ambitions, but like, I feel like having someone like that in an executive producer role, that's gonna make all the difference in the world, and it's also still gonna make good TV.

Do you know what I'm like? Literally. I agree. That's the crazy thing, is that like, you don't need abuse to create good TV. No, you know what I mean? Like, I agree. Literally, that's the crazy thing is that like, you don't need abuse to create good TV. No, you do not. Hello. No, you don't. Yeah. Okay, so we wanna play a cute little game

that Chelsea invented. Oh! It's called Smize or Lies. So, in this game, we're going to throw out some phrases that may or may not be from the ANTM insider glossary that we've referenced. And we can all decide whether or not the word is a smize, AKA a real word from the world of ANTM or lies, AKA a word that Chelsea just like completely made up. So if the word is actually from the ANTM repertoire, explain it to us and free associate

what the word brings up for you. Okay. So starting off with a softball, the word is smize. Okay. That is a smize. To smile with your eyes, The patented model trick of smiling with your eyes, keep your mouth fierce. And you know what? She's not wrong. It makes a good photo. She's not wrong. Okay. The next one booty to booty to is when you are posing in a photo and you want to just arch your back without looking hoochie. Because if you arch your back, then really what it is, is it's just arching your back and not sticking your chest out. It's just sticking your butt out just a little bit because it elongates your torso and also puts a little bit of like active muscle into your legs. And so you look very like sort of powerful and lean and good.

Oh, that's a pretty tute. Okay, next term, Smyzer lies, flick salation. I think that's a lie. Chelsea, did you make that up? Yes. Ah, thank God. Because I didn't watch. I've now seen my whole cycle, but I didn't watch any others.

So I was like, oh, that could have been a later. Also, when they got guys at some point, I never watched that. So I was like, I don't know. Maybe the men were flix-a-lating. What could that mean? What do you think it means, Chelsea? A flixelation. I thought something to do with picture. Something to do. Like a flick your hair? Flixelation? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Uh-huh. That's good. That's good. Okay. Yeah. When you flick your hair for the camera. I love that. Yeah. Or like your gown, you can flick-sulate your gown.

Just a little. Yes. Oh, flick-sulation. Yes, I love that. Next, ugly pretty. Smize. Most of the girls on Top Model who had the best odds of success in the fashion world

were ugly pretty. Because it's like those girls that you look at, they're funny looking, they look like aliens. And I remember like when I saw all the girls gathered together for the first time, I was like, man, they all look like aliens. And I think a lot of people don't know, like, especially straight size models, like they're 5'10", they're size zero. They're kind of weird looking in person. In a good way, it's like fascinating, but that's ugly pretty. It's the particular high fashion look. Oh my God. I remember like,

I think it was Project Runway, which I loved Project Runway going up. Or was it ANTM? I don't know, but one thing that really definitely poisoned me when I watched it was like some judge referred to a model as not model pretty, but girlfriend pretty. And I was like, oh, which I never. Am I girl? Yeah. Like it was just like categorizing and objectifying women like that on TV proudly. It was not good for like an 11, 12, 13 year old to witness. I have been in multiple roast battles with very funny, very clever comedians.

And the best insult that I ever had was not from any of them. It was from someone on the ANTM Reddit board who said under a photo of me that I looked like I was probably the prettiest girl at my hometown county fair. And do you know what? At the Greenfield County fair, I ate them up. Okay. I absolutely was the prettiest girl at the Greenfield County fair every year.

Blueberries, baby. In blueberries. Could I go to the biggie, which was the big statewide fair? No, absolutely not. But in my county fair, the Franklin County Greenfield Fair, I really hold that in my heart. It was so beautiful. That's such a good point.

Oh my God. We're not telling anyone not to be mean. Just be clever. Just be clever. Like, I treasure that. I'm getting older, you know what I mean? And I'm like, now I'm not the prettiest girl at the fair. I'm the prettiest woman at a county fair.

Woman. All right. The next one is modelstration. Is that real? No. No, it's made up. OK, OK. I was like, I don't know.

That sounds good. But Chelsea, that's good. Modelstration. That sounds real. It's like you showing them how to model. Showing them how to model, like on a group shot? Yeah, like a demonstration. Yes.

I love that. See, I would watch a modeling show. I mean, modelstration. I'm ready for it. Yeah. Okay. Tyra Mill. That is Smyze.

Mm-hmm. Fierceography. I'm gonna say that's real. It is real. Yes, okay, okay. Nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Runway rage.

Lies? You're right. Yeah, I was thinking Sasha Fierce. I don't know. No, no, I... No, that's good. That could definitely be a thing. These are good. Yeah, I know. These are really good.

Come on, neologism. I love them. Okay, the next one is H2T. Head to toe. That one's real. Yes. Dang, girl. Okay. And then photofalia. Lies? Yeah, you're right. Okay.

She knows her, she knows her glossary. She knows the lore. That's right. Okay. We'll try to clear a list. You received it. Incredible. Okay. So Sarah, the only thing that's left to do now is to pose the ultimate sounds like a cult question. Out of our three cult categories, live your life,

watch your back, and get the fuck out. Which category do we think the cults of America's Next Top Model falls into? As a viewer, I'm going to say watch your back. As a participant, if somebody asked me should I do it, I'd say get the fuck out. If my daughter asked me if she should do it, I'd say get the fuck out. Yeah. Yep. As it was when I'd say, get the fuck out. Yeah. Yeah. As it was when I was there.

I believe that it could change. And I think it is possible to do a reality show from an empowered place and to maintain your sense of self. I certainly did not. I would have to agree. And I think that, honestly, makes this a slightly more extreme reality TV cult, even compared to, to like The Bachelor or The Real Housewives. I mean, we've heard a lot of reality TV cult stories on this show and Chelsea knows.

And this one seems like it's further along that cult spectrum than some others for sure. And I've got to assume if they were going to do it today, it would be different. And so maybe that's a different answer. But if you're going to take the world that I entered into and just like examine that and say, should I go in? Absolutely not. I couldn't agree with you more. Given your account to what happened this entire episode, I've just been infuriated. So yeah, it's definitely a get the fuck out. Also, I mean, one of the the big time executive producers that did have one of the more recognizable names. I mean, I don't know what he's like now, but everyone that I hear that has a story with him, he behaves the same way. What incentive would he have to change? The show was a smash.

Exactly. Yeah. Sarah, you were the perfect guest for this episode. Thank you so much. I feel so fulfilled after this conversation. I was like, this sounds like a cult canon already. If people want to keep up with you and your work, where can they do that? You can find me, Sarah B. Hartzorn on any of the platforms also, sarabhartzorn.com

or youwannabeontop.com, which you can pre-order the book. You know what? We're going to do a giveaway. We'll do a giveaway for the listeners. Oh, yay! And I think that would be great. Well, that's our show. Thanks so much for listening.

Stick around for a new Cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. Sounds Like a Cult was created by Amanda Montell and edited by Jordan Moore of the PodCabin. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montell and Chelsea Charles. This episode was produced by Chelsea Charles. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson.

Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it five stars on Spotify or Apple podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality,

and Wordslet, A Feminist's Guide to Taking Back the English Language. Thanks as well to our network, Studio 71. And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse at Sounds Like a Cult Pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad free at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult. Welcome to Only Friends, the podcast where real conversations meets real friendship. Each week we dive deep into everything from the latest pop culture moments. Oh my God, did you see what happened last night? To juicy listener submissions that get way too real.

Wait, you're telling me they did what? And of course, all the influencer drama you would love to gossip about. No, I like, I can't believe they did that. That's so embarrassing. So wherever you are, join us for the gossip, the laughs and all the lore. Only friends where you're always in the loop and never alone. Tune in every week wherever you get your podcasts. Do you need advice? Maybe some perspective on a dating dilemma or some words of wisdom for a specific life problem? I'm Tim Chantarangsu, a retired party

boy who is navigating being a husband and a new father of two little hyper babies. And I'm Megan Batoon, a recovering people pleaser and perfectionist learning how to let go of the good girl image. to the next one.