Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Astrology Apps

Episode Date: November 19, 2024

~A cosmic new episode of Sounds Like a Cult lies in your near future, Virgo~ No? Capricorn? Pisces, maybe? Whatever your sign is, today’s episode is sure to deliver all of the celestial wisdom you��ve been seeking straight from the comfort of your mobile device, much like today’s cult of discush, astrology apps! The astrologically inclined have fully infiltrated Silicon Valley (thanks, Elon), leaving in their data-farming path a vast plethora of galactic apps to suit whatever flavor of push notification strikes your fancy. Truly a product of the 21st century, astrology apps provide a dystopian look into the spiritual sects of our future, (which, spoiler alert, might not even have human leaders?!), giving us reason to question what “cults” might be lying right beyond our grubby screen protectors. Here to help Amanda and Reese navigate the digital cosmos is astrologer and astrology app co-founder Aliza Kelly, host of the Horoscope Weekly Podcast. Calibrate your sundials, clear up some iCloud storage, and suit up for a light-speed cruise through this astral listen! Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod @amanda_montell @reesaronii @chelseaxcharles Watch the new season of Sounds Like A Cult on YouTube! Thank you to our sponsors!  Dipsea is offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/cult.  Earn points by paying rent right now when you go to joinbilt.com/CULT. Get 20% off your first order of Liquid I.V. when you go to LiquidIV.com and use code CULT at checkout. Shop the SKIMS Holiday Shop at skims.com/cult. 

Question for you, culties. Have you ever wished you could step into the shoes of a detective solving mysteries and uncovering scandalous family secrets? Well, now you can with June's Journey, the hidden object mystery game that puts your investigative skills to the test. In June's Journey, you get to play as June Parker, navigating through beautifully detailed scenes of the 1920s. Your mission? To uncover the mystery behind your sister's murder. With every scene, you'll find hidden clues, solve intricate puzzles, and piece together a gripping story filled with love, loss, and betrayal. One of my favorite parts of June's journey

is the beautiful attention to detail in each scene. As you move along in the story, you get to customize your own island estate, building beautiful gardens and gorgeous buildings. It's very aesthetic and perfect if you enjoy mysterious games that aren't too scary. So are you ready to channel your inner detective? Escape into a world of mystery and download June's Journey for free today on iOS and Android. Trust me, you won't be able to put it down. Thank you to our sponsor, Dipsy. For listeners of the show,

Dipsy is offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to dipsystories.com slash cult. That's 30 days of full access for free when you go to D-I-P-S-E-A stories.com slash cult, dipsystories.com slash cult. This show is sponsored by Liquid IV. Stay hydrated through the holidays with Liquid IV. Get 20% off your first order of Liquid IV when you go to liquidiv.com and use code CULT

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Astrology right now, I have been saying for years, be wary of the cults. They are a coming. And it's like the call was coming from inside the house kind of thing where it's like, oh, like I'm telling everyone this and then only to find out everyone has been drinking the Kool-Aid already. Like it's already too late. You know what I mean? It's been so insidious the way that we've all been brainwashed and it's like maybe still too raw, honestly, but it's really, really creepy right now, the vibes. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow.

I'm your host Amanda Montell, author of the books, Cultish and The Age of Magical Overthinking. And I'm Reese Oliver, Sounds Like a Cult's coordinator and today's co-host. Every week on this show, you're going to hear about a different zeitgeisty group that puts the cult in culture, from free birthers to ballet dancers to try and answer the big question.

This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds like a cult, but is it really?

And if so, which of our three cult categories does it fall into? A live-your-life, a watch-your-back, or a get-the-fuck-out-level cult? After all, in 21st century America, the word cult is up to interpretation. Cultish influence can be found everywhere, but it falls on a spectrum. As trust in institutions like the government and traditional religion declines, people look for answers, ritual, and belonging

in alternative places, from niche internet communities to fitness studios to today's topic of discussion, astrology apps, which, according to an LA Times piece titled, How Millennials Replaced Religion with Astrology and Crystals, are really filling a void for young people who identify as spiritual but not religious. In general, each week this podcast aims to poke fun at the culty little ways we attempt to connect and find meaning these days, but also to legitimately figure out which groups along this modern cultish continuum are relatively harmless and which are more destructive. Is it the election or is Mercury in Gatorade?

What would CoStar have to say about that? Speaking of CoStar. Speaking of CoStar, yes, today the cult of astrology apps is on the table. We are talking CoStar. The pattern, time passages, Astro Zone, name your favorite. There are dozens and they are popular. Astrology apps really started to skyrocket in 2019 when the top 10 astrology apps earned nearly $40 million in the United States. A growth of almost 65% according to sensor tower store intelligence data. Pennies compared to what they became. Fucking tuppens. Mere rubes. And they have only continued to explode in popularity since then,

providing solace, identity, and solutions during times of uncertainty for better and for not so better. Some people call that worse. Some. And becoming a multi-billion dollar business along the way. Yes. Today's discussion is less about the cult of astrology itself. We do have an episode on that already. It's in our season one, go find it. I have no idea. I probably have like a little baby voice that was many glasses of wine ago.

Anyway, this is a very different episode. This Cult of Astrology apps discussion is more about the nexus of new age spirituality, the tech industry and AI, emotional vulnerability, politics and profitability. With the seemingly innocent, fun brunch fodder that are astrology apps sitting at the center. I was so ready to go into this episode today,

classifying this shit as a live your life. Oh baby, you are in for a culty, rude little awakening. Are you not? You are. I know what you're thinking right now, dear listener. Are you thinking, oh, just a little baby app? Oh, what's a co-star gonna tell me that I don't already know? Oh, you wait. You are. I know what you're thinking right now, dear listener. Are you thinking, oh, just a little baby app? Oh, what's a co-star going to tell me that I don't already know? Oh, you wait.

You don't even know. Okay, because there is an app to indoctrinate everyone. Okay, these astrology apps vary in tones and vary in features. Some of them offer daily affirmations. Some project your mood for the near future. Some give you tough love if you're into that. And some seem to mostly just tell you jokes. The pattern, for example, points out patterns in your future. Some give you a tough love if you're into that, and some seem to mostly just tell you jokes. The pattern, for example, points out patterns in your life,

and Jimmy Tatum happens to think it's pretty accurate. He just posted this video on Twitter being like, how does the pattern know all this about me, man? He was demanding that the people behind the pattern call or DM him to explain how they know these things about him. He felt compelled to make the rant after receiving a notification regurgitating word for word

what he discussed in therapy the day prior, says one of our sources for today's episode that we'll have linked for you. Dude, celebrities are wild. Anyway, call me naive, call me a sweet, innocent little baby, but I did not even realize going into this recording today, going into this interview,

and I'm so excited for the listeners to hear that most astrology apps are, A, only cult followed because of the push notifications. So it's really not that deep. They just like prompt your shit to your whatever it's called, your notification center, like a text from God. And that's how they get you. And I also didn't realize that a lot of this shit is written by AI. God fucking damn it. The robots are here replacing important jobs like astrologers.

It's a real travesty. It's a real travesty. No, but it is culty and it is a real threat to our ability to interpret reality. My question for you though, Reese, is that like, I know you're like a bit of an astrology girlie. Have you ever dabbled in the cult of astrology apps? I have. As any good art school student, I had a co-star account because of peer pressure. I think I checked in on it pretty religiously for a few weeks and then not really very much after that, as I'm sure a lot of people have had a similar experience. And then I remember they got into a scandal sometime later in my high school experience

because apparently whatever method they use of measuring the stars is not as accurate as the methods that the other apps were using. It's hard to say it with a straight face because like, what does the term accurate mean? Especially, especially now knowing that Co-Star's notifications this whole time have just been AI. I'm like, okay, so my like huge moral quitting of CoStar on the grounds that it's not accurate didn't even matter. Yeah, like no one's suffering. It's just a bot.

I have never in my life used an astrology app. That would be a real hypocrisy. I feel well, living in Los Angeles, of course, it is the culture here to use CoStar or the pattern or whatever. It's like you go to a meal with an acquaintance. What is there to talk about? You talk about Love is Blind. You talk about astrology apps. The cyber truck you saw the other day that, oh my God, was so ugly. Exactly. It's the same. I did, I heard as an adolescent and it's something that has stuck with me and haunted me since then. This is not a scientific fact. This is a piece of lore. Okay. It's neither scientific fact.

Your honor, it was lore. Your honor, it was lore. Your honor, this is lore. Something like 80% of the conversations that you have in your life are just repetition. Like when in your life do you ever really say anything new? But when in your life do you really have the energy to come up with a new thought, you know? That just really rocked my world. Oh, well it shouldn't because again, it's just lore. No, 80% of the conversations we're having are brand new. This podcast is totally different. Every single

week we never say the same things ever, ever, ever, ever. Any fucking who. I'm really looking forward to everyone hearing this conversation because it felt shocking. Like I was shooketh to the damn core by what our very special guest had to say because she has a unique perspective on today's subject matter. Being an astrologer, but don't hold that against to say because she has a unique perspective on today's subject matter. Being an astrologer, but don't hold that against her. Like she has notes, you know, when it comes to astrology and the role that it should and shouldn't play in your life. I feel like she has her head on her shoulders there. And also she founded an astrology app that no longer exists. It didn't sort of make it, but she got some very unique insight into

the cult where Silicon Valley meets spirituality. So with that we'll just we're gonna get right into it. We're gonna introduce our special guest today. Her name is Aliza Kelly. She is an astrologer. She is a founder of many astrological resources online including the Constellation Club. Without further fucking delay. Here's Aliza. Hello! Hi! Aliza, tell us a little bit about your background, specifically with astrology apps as it pertains

to this episode, and why you thought they were a suitable episode for Sounds Like a Cult. So yeah, my name is Aliza. I'm an astrologer, I'm an author, I'm a host. I have a podcast called Horoscope Weekly, which comes out every Monday. So always looking at different astrological things and interpreting them.

In my first iteration of doing this work, I actually started an astrology dating app called Align with my best friend, my co-founder, we went to college together, and we ran that from 2013 through 2016, and that was a really wild experience that I would love to share with you guys here, but in that experience,

I really acquired a lot of information and insight as to what it takes to create a viable astrology app, why people would want an astrology app, why investors would like an astrology app, and I was able to really identify this interesting intersection between having this resource available to people and as someone who is an astrologer I'm always looking for ways to present information to people in an accessible and easy and relatable way and then also what the dangers of having an astrology app are. Now of course like the

dangers of astrology to me, like they're so vanilla relative to like the real dangers in the world, right? It's like the dangers of astrology are like, oh no, like I keep doing these bad things because I'm a Scorpio or like, oh no, like I keep attracting shitty men because my Venus is in Sag. But even though there's so many bigger problems, quote unquote, out there, I do recognize that people who are presented with astrological content that is designed to sort of fuel their anxieties or their insecurities

or get them to just keep opening the app over and over and over again is really sort of a slippery slope and there's a lot of dangers in that. Yes, okay. I definitely wanna hear more about your experience operating an astrology app. As we were exchanging emails

in preparation for this episode, I remember you saying something along the lines of, the timing of your app launch was maybe before the culture was ready. I wanna hear a little bit more about what you mean by that. As an overall sort of like bird's eye evaluation of this cult, so to speak, the way I see it is that like astrology in a vacuum, whether you believe in it a little bit more literally

or you just sort of view it as like a general framework to understand your life and connect with other people, communities who crave spirituality, who crave answers, who crave ritual, et cetera, but you don't actually take it all that seriously. Regardless, I feel like, yes, it is relatively harmless, but then the app of it all starts to make it

a bit more sinister because you're introducing addictive behaviors, you know, checking apps, fucks with our brain chemistry. It is an addictive tendency and app creators and app funders and those who benefit from an app succeeding are incentivized to make the applications more sensational and engaging and thus profitable. You're introducing VC funding potentially. Which for those who don't know or watch Shark Tank, VC funding is basically when rich tech bros

pour a bunch of private equity on an up and coming company like gasoline on fire and hopes that it turns the business into a cult success as quickly as possible. Yes, and so the marriage of capitalism and Silicon Valley and the spirituality that astrology can sort of innocently offer, that's where the equation starts to get culty for me. But yeah, before we sort of give a little bit

of basic information about astrological apps, which we've gathered for the purposes of this episode, could you tease a little bit about your experience with founding that app and what was culty about it? So my experience with Align and with our journey was really a fascinating one. It was one that I have now looking back a lot of compassion for myself and my co-founder

throughout the journey of that. At the time that we were founding it in 2013, I mean, I feel like the subtitle of this is like the cult of tech, you know? The cult of Silicon Valley, the cult of VC funding, and how creepy that experience is too. But at the time that we were creating this in 2013, it was an era when everybody was like,

oh, if you have a good idea, make it an app. You know, like that was the sort of the zeitgeist of the moment that everyone with an idea should find the app version of that. And Helen, my co-founder and I, we were both baby astrologers at the time, and we were also single, and we were also on Tinder, which had really just come out at that moment. And it was really becoming this like mass adopted way of meeting people. And as it still is, it was a really intense experience, you know, it felt very soulless, it felt very meat market was something that we used to describe it. And we had this really earnest idea as to, what if we took the conversations

that we were happening after we met someone, like what their sign is and are we compatible and all of the questions that like the girlies ask and then brought that into the experience upfront. And at the time, there was no bumble. I think Hinge had maybe just come out, but it was basically like Tinder and then a ton of freaky freaky niche sites

like Dating Farmers or something, you know, or like Christian Mingle was there, but it was really all super, super niche. So there was this really seemed like an incredible opening and opportunity for us to bring this into the market. And we were both living in Los Angeles and we were both very connected to the VCs through our friends who were also had lots of app ideas.

And from the beginning, we took this to investors and VCs. I think that looking back, if we were to ever redo this, we would not approach it in that order, but we didn't know any better. And really the journey and what we experienced through that process was how is this going to make us money, right? If we invest in this, then what does that return

on investment look like? And it was a number of different options, right? It was a subscription option and the more preferred option at that time was reaching critical mass for data. And that was what it was at that time. It was trying to get as much information as possible about people so that ultimately that could be sold or repackaged or repurposed somewhere. Whoa. Okay. So my understanding is that you went into this experience wanting to create sort of like a lovely matchmaking service for astrology enthusiasts, but really you entered the business

of collecting and exploiting metadata. Right. Unbeknownst to you at first. Yeah. Just casually, right? Just the slippery slope of spirituality into metadata and farming data. No problem. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. Everyone's been there. But yeah, it was a really alarming and illuminating journey for Helen and I who really were struggling to maintain our integrity. We really believed in what we were doing.

We also really believed in what we were creating and really wanted it to see the light of day. I also, speaking for myself, was really broke and I had no money. So like the idea of being able to get funding and to be able to get like attractive funding was obviously very alluring to me. And it was a three-year battle of trying to figure out one, how to convince tech bros that astrology is viable, two, how to convince tech bros to invest in a female funded company of two 23 year olds without trying to sleep with us.

Then also, how do we get the right investors here in this space who are going to not like exploit us and exploit the data? And then what does it actually look like bringing something like this to market and creating the content around it and creating the infrastructure and building an app that people want to use that isn't exploitative and isn't sensationalized. And ultimately none of it worked, right? We closed. Like the story ends with like, we could not find middle ground with all of those,

but it is very interesting that we closed August 2016 and CoStar opened October 2016, and CoStar is invested by the same VCs that we were having meetings with, and that we weren't moving forward with. That's my tea. That's frustrating. Definitely frustrating.

Also, you know, I'm sure you experienced such cognitive dissonance. I experienced cognitive dissonance just hearing this story because on one hand, if you're an astrologer and you have a skill, a market, you know, there are people who want to consume what you have to offer. We are living in America. Like, of course, if the conventional wisdom

of the moment is found an app, you're gonna fucking found an app and you're gonna sort of shoot in the dark and you're not necessarily going to know if the market is perfectly ready to receive that. You're not gonna know necessarily like who's gonna be pulling the strings behind the scenes. You're just gonna kind of go into it hoping for the best.

I can relate to being in a sort of entertainment adjacent for UteWizTech, this is sort of entertainment oriented field that causes you to have to like suddenly really really reckon with your values. And at the same time when it doesn't succeed for whatever reason you're bummed because you like really believe in the foundational vision. And then I have to think that it is no coincidence that the reason that CoStar took off was because of the Trump presidency and look where we are again. Like I think people were really to your point having made it in the emails that we were exchanging earlier like suddenly when Trump entered office we were fucking ready for a new kind of spiritual

authority to tell us what to believe and where to go for answers. So it's such an interesting timing sort of thing. This one looks different now. I mean, not to bring us too much to the present, but having now been an astrologer during Obama, having been an astrologer during Trump won Biden, and now as we come into Trump two, I can tell you fully and completely that moving into this is a very, very different experience than it was the first time. It's really going to be a very different path forward. I want to fucking talk about it. Like this convergence of tech, politics and alternative spirituality is just like-

So many cults. Yeah. I mean, and the astrology right now, I have been saying for years, be wary of the cults. They are a-coming. And it's like the call was coming from inside the house kind of thing where it's like, oh, like I'm telling everyone this and then only to find out everyone has been drinking the Kool-Aid already. Like it's already too late, you know what I mean?

It's been so insidious the way that we've all been brainwashed. And it's, like, maybe still too raw, honestly. But it's really, really creepy right now, the vibes. Let's actually take a second to quantify the political implications of astrology apps. Because while astrology has been embraced by so many classically progressive spaces, like art students and the queer

community. There also seems to be a bit of overlap with conspiracy theorists and then when you add Silicon Valley to the mix, astrology could start to have a pretty weird political influence on the people who use these apps, you know? I mean, in my mind, when I think of the classic astrology aficionado, if there even is one, I think of someone who has rejected the sort of like oppressive conservative religion they may have been raised with in favor of this more inclusive community. But I also know that the conservative alt-right has colonized a lot of new agey spaces. And so, you know, there's a reason why there's a whole yoga mom to QAnon pipeline.

Is there an astrology aficionado to right wing politics pipeline? Yes, and I fear that those astrologers are going to be given more and more air time. Listen, like I'm an astrologer, astrology works. Astrology is powerful. But it is also always in the hands of the interpreter. I like to think that astrologers are artists.

And the way that we are painting is by exploring the interpretations of these planets and thinking about the application in our life, thinking about how, for me, we could use this to empower ourselves that we can have a better sense of who we are, come into conversations with confidence as to what our strengths and weaknesses are, really as a way for us to be better people,

internally and externally. However, there are also astrologers who love this sort of like old fashioned doomsday prophecy astrology. And those astrologers have become more and more prevalent on social media. They become more and more prevalent on TikTok because that's the algorithm. So if you are saying these extremely sensational, shocking, massive predictions about the future and oftentimes those looking like conspiracy theories, then you are going to have astrologers

who are also maybe just people who started practicing astrology when TikTok started becoming louder and louder. And with those louder and louder voices, when media Googles who is a famous astrologer, they're gonna see so-and-so has five million followers on TikTok, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are a practiced astrologer, that they have integrity as astrologer,

that they're using this information in a way that is going to uplift and empower people, it's most likely that they are really good at marketing like a good cult leader and thus really good at being able to create an entire brand around them and their identity and the sensational wackadoo things they say. At the time of this recording, Trump was just reelected. I'm already seeing that happen because why wouldn't it? You know what I mean? 100%.

I wanna get into some basic facts because we got into it so quickly, but I have to just comment on what you said. Something that we state over and over again on this podcast is that even the most notorious cult leaders from history, including Jim Jones and Marshall Applewhite, the leader of Heaven's Gate, etc. They weren't evil masterminds, geniuses with a grand plan. They were opportunists. And these TikTok astrologers are exactly that. They don't have a grand vision that they go ahead and execute. And when they gain 5 million

followers, they're like, haha, I did exactly what I set out to do. They are opportunistically seeing what messaging lands, which of course is normally the most conspiratorial negative information because that is what's most engaging. Negative information makes people seem like they are in the know that they have access to transcendent wisdom, that they're sharing something novel, and that's true. And I would even argue that a TikTok astrologer, unlike a cult leader of your say in the seventies, who had to have the charisma to get people to continue showing up to a congregation IRL,

on TikTok, you have to have significantly less charisma in order to get people to keep coming to your content. No, none. Like you don't have to have the organizational prowess to get people to show up to your event. You don't need to have the oratory stylings to command them to watch you for 45 minutes. You just need Subway Surfers edited in and the brightest font. And that's all.

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We're talking a lot already about this convergence of politics and spirituality and opportunism, but I feel like for those who are tuning in without a lot of background, Reese, could you share a little bit of what we're talking about when we say the cult of astrology apps? I would love to. So, as I'm sure we all know, a lot of people are astrologically inclined. YouGov's latest poll finds that a little more than a quarter of Americans, including 37% of adults under 30, say that they believe in astrology. And thus, as with any common growing interest, the app market, like you were saying, Aliza,

is bound to grow. According to Statista.com, the global forecast for the astrology app market size is expected to grow massively in the next 10 years, going from 2 billion US dollars in 2021 to almost 20 billion dollars in 2031, which is insane. I don't even know how many different apps could be performing enough different functions to generate that much revenue with enough unique users. But when there's a will, there's a way apparently. And a lot of people do use these apps. A lot of people use these apps casually. They take them with a grain of salt. It's just their everyday little, you know, they do it with

their connections. One L horoscope reader named Katie Murtha told the Washington Post that when it's right, it feels really interesting and kind of weird and magical. And if it's totally wrong, it's just something to laugh about. And I feel like that's something a lot of us can relate to. That's definitely how I approach astrology, or at least how I have for like most of my life. I'm always open to new interpretations, but some people take their love for astrology apps much more seriously, and even dogmatically, cultishly, if you will. Yes, Aliza, oh my God, I have so many questions. We've been talking about TikTok astrologers

and the insidiousness of that culture and how it's exploded. Can you talk about the relationship between TikTok astrologers and astrology apps? There seem to be a lot of people benefiting from this renewed interest in astrology that stems in part from really fraught sociopolitical times wanting an authority figure to tell us

what's gonna happen. Can you tell us like who is benefiting the most from this? Like who are the cult leaders in this whole world? I mean, I think it depends on which angle you're looking at it from. Every one is cannibalizing the other, you know what I mean? Like there's a lot of different layers to this.

Ultimately, it's a follow the money kind of thing, as all things are. So I would say that, I mean, if we follow it all the way up, this is what late stage capitalism does to everything, right? It just turns everything into some sort of commodity and turns everything into some sort of race to the bottom kind of situation. just turns everything into some sort of commodity and turns everything into some sort of

race to the bottom kind of situation. So yes, I mean, I think from an app perspective, founders are always servicing their investors, right? They are always catering to what their fiduciary responsibilities are. So when you have an app that is VC funded, and if you have an astrology app that is VC funded, that app is going to be engineering itself

to ensure that it is delivering on whatever those fiduciary responsibilities are. So if that is people joining and collecting the data, if that's subscriptions, if that is this concept of engagement and time spent on the app, perhaps for in-app marketing or whatever it is, like, yes, the leaders of that are absolutely going to be the investors and those who are holding the purse strings of whatever that platform is. TikTok in and of itself is a commerce platform, right? It's becoming more and more of a sort of a YouTube

slash Amazon hybrid where you're purchasing things from it and everyone there is designed to sell you something. You go on TikTok and you're not surprised that it's just people are selling you things. And then among those people selling you things are astrologers and some of these astrologers on there, their entire business is just to get followers, to get views, to grow their platforms.

And I would argue that a lot of these individuals don't even know why they're doing it, right? They're doing it because we kind of think we're supposed to be doing it, because what else are we doing? We're doing it because we think that something is gonna happen from it. But that just leaves to a lot of people just being like,

okay, well, I guess if I just keep going and keep doing this, something is bound to happen. Something will change in my life. And then the videos get more and more extreme and everyone one ups themselves more and more and more. I've always been kind of like a little bit of a lone wolf in my space. I was never a Twitter astrologer. I'm not an in my space. I was never a Twitter astrologer.

I'm not an Instagram astrologer. I'm not a TikTok astrologer. I just am me and I just do my thing, but I still am on these platforms. So I observe the way that people use them and I observe the way that how people are using this content that is astrology is changing because it's not astrology anymore, it's content. It's content. And that is the relationship between how people are using it on TikTok and how they're using it on the apps.

They're using it as content. And it might as well be clickbait, you know? Because if astrology is stripped of all of its purpose, then it's just clickbait. Yes, especially when it's so algorithmic and the whole point is to appeal to as many people as possible. You lose all of the personalized quality of astrology that makes people so drawn to it in the first place. It feels like they're being listened to uniquely. But when it's been turned into this form of content, the whole purpose of which is to be shoved

at as many people as possible, it just absolutely loses its soul in anything that made it worth seeking out in the first place, maybe. I'm being dramatic, but you know. Well, this sounds like a cult. That's what we do. You have to catastrophize and then reel yourself back. No, I mean, I think when it comes to the cult of TikTok astrologers and the cult of these astrology apps, it sounds like to me, ultimately the people who are benefiting are the same because they are tech leaders and tech founders. Right. I just like, I can't get over the insidious marriage of spirituality content and tech. Okay. I got a PSA for anyone who rents.

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Shop Skims Holiday Shop at skims.com, available in styles for women, men, kids, and even pets. If you haven't yet, be sure to let them know we sent you. After you place your order, select podcast in the survey and select our show in the drop down menu that follows. I read a novel earlier this year called Worry by Alexandra Tanner, where this sort of disillusioned like bumbling millennial New Yorker gets a job writing horoscopes for an astrology app, sort of like a middling astrology app, even though she like doesn't know anything about astrology, it is literally just copywriting. And that reminded me so much of what you said,

where like this isn't astrology anymore. It's just astrology themed content. The way that dating apps aren't really for matchmaking, they're just love themed content. So my question for you, Aliza is like, as someone who founded an app and was trying to make it successful, what are some of the cultiest ways in which these apps recruit followers, so to speak, and exploit them? Yeah, I mean, I would say that the number one thing that I see on these apps,

and something that certainly is one of the most low-hanging fruits of developing an app is the push notifications. And that is where CoStar, for instance, has been incredibly successful, because you will get a notification on your phone that sort of stirs you psychologically. It elicits an emotional response,

and thus you have to check your app. You know, you have to go on and see what it was. And I think that that technology, which is such simple technology, that's why I call it a low-hanging fruit. I mean, but it's so smart. How do you get people to develop a habit? How do you get people to,

even when they're not thinking about, oh, I wonder what's going on with me astrologically today, if you get a notification on your phone that says like, watch out, someone's lying to you, you're like, whoa, who's lying? I have to see who it is. I was having a very normal day and now maybe I'm not, you know? And I guess if we think of it from a more sinister perspective, like that is a form of psychological manipulation, you know? Our apps all psychological manipulation? I'm sure that we can make an argument for them. They're thinking about putting, you know, surgeon general warnings on apps these days.

But with the astrology apps in particular, because you are also meddling in people's vulnerable space, their own unique astrological profile, and these apps promise to be personalized in such a way that there are gonna be people who get a notification that say someone's lying to you and it's like oh my god I knew it and then they go on a departed path but then the funny thing is is that rather than follow that narrative the next day the app is gonna say something like you look hot you know what I mean because they're not really, it's not like having an astrologer who is working with you on figuring out how to navigate challenges in your

life and figure out the best timing for certain things and how to show up and really be your most earnest and authentic self. It's like spaghetti on the wall. You know, what notifications are going to get you to click in. No, exactly. Yes. They're definitely relying on you forgetting about anything that's not applicable, which with how many junk notifications I personally get bombarded with every single day, that is honestly so genius. Because you know that people are going to be, like you said, searching for those notifications, especially because so many of them are so alarmist.

But they're also such vague nonsense that of them are so alarmist. But they're also such vague nonsense that when they're not alarmist, they're really easy to write off and discredit. I just, I'm so disheartened and like, we'll never get over the fact that like people who bring measured data to the public, people whose job it is to communicate accurate information to the public are oftentimes not as skilled in marketing and psychological manipulation as people who don't give a shit if they're sharing accurate information or not. And so it's like, oh, God damn, like you bitches just wait when the surgeon general figures out how to follow the costar model,

maybe our society will actually get somewhere. Yeah, I mean, but are we gonna live in a society that even has a surgeon general anymore? You know what I mean? Like all of it is sort of imploding on itself. That is a scary and fair point. Talking about the psychological phenomena at play, Reese, do you wanna start talking about where astrology apps start to get truly culty from a psychological perspective?

I would love to. So going back to talking about how those notifications can seem so personal, but also so vague, this is symptomatic of something called the Barnum effect that these astrology apps are taking advantage of, which according to the Washington Post can be summarized by the statement, if an astrologer or palm reader makes a statement that can apply to many people in the course of a reading, something like, you're generally a very open person, but sometimes find it hard to share things even with your closest friends, someone is more likely to ascribe it to the teller's ability. So obviously, this is something that you can apply to astrology as a whole. But I think the apps, because they are reaching such a large mass of people at once, more than ever rely on this. It also creates this really weird power dynamic, which

makes these astrology apps appear to have this transcendent wisdom, which like you said, causes the followers to become really reliant on them and find this cult leader in this app That's not even really a person. Yeah, that's not a person at all And that is not someone with a background in astrology or a desire to serve people with The aims that an astrologer would want to have you know, like if that makes sense, like it's just a totally different thing There's this meme and if you get it you get it and and if you don't, you don't. But it's like, you're fucking the text man for texts. And that's how this feels where it's like you're going to the astrology notification app for the notifications, not the astrology.

You know what I mean? Like, it's a really crude way to put that metaphor. But that's kind of how I feel about it. Yes. No, I mean, I think that that's perfect. That's exactly it. I mean, to me, it's like, yes, obviously, the Barnett, how could you not apply something like that if you're working to scale? If you're thinking about hundreds of thousands

or millions of users and individual people coming on every day, naturally, you have to sort of experiment. You have to just try a lot of things and one of those is going to feel like it hits. However, these apps are using AI more and more. And one of the wild things about AI is that it's not just copy, you know, it's intuitive. The CoStar notifications are AI. I didn't know that. Yes, it's intuitive. The CoStar notifications are AI. I didn't know that. Yes, they are AI.

I've been recently introduced to an app that is the byproduct of a VC. It's VC Created, and it is exclusively AI. There's not an astrologer in sight. And this app came to me a few times now to partner with them. And I looked at the product, like any normal due diligence person I hope would do,

and it was completely inaccurate. It was completely inaccurate in even just calculating very simple birth information. For me, I put in my daughter's info, it was all wrong. And it was like, before I even think about the ethical implications of this, like get your system down, but it's on market. You know, it's already out.

It's on market. You can download it and use it and have inaccurate information given to you by AI and then believe that that is both accurate and also honest. You know what I mean? Like the layers. Yes. Oh my God. We're just like so far from reality at this point.

It's almost like child's play to think about these astrology apps being copywritten by like underemployed millennial girlies who don't know what they're talking about. No, they're being copywritten by machines who are like trying to interpret a constructed pseudo spiritual system. Like how far from reality are we?

All to fill the coffers of Silicon Valley dudes who don't give a shit about any of this and didn't even know that it was valuable or profitable until some women told them it was. Right, right, that's right. So fucking ridiculous. Now I wanna continue talking a little bit more about what the experience on the user side is like though, because it is fun and scary.

Fun in a scary way and scary in a fun way to talk about who is pulling the puppet strings here. But I also want to think about who is suffering on the user end. And I do think that some of these apps, most of these apps, which are now not even using human beings, can be destructive in a cultish manner because they're preying on people's desires to understand themselves and their relationships during these crisis-written, really fraught sociocultural times. These apps, again, which are not even being written by human cult leaders all the time, are encouraging people to base their decisions on just gobbledygook, like absolute gobbledygook.

Not even the astrology we love it, gobbledygook. Like another layer of gobbledygook. I think a lot of these apps are really exacerbating people's self-centeredness, their individualism, again, their dependence on the app. I think they can dissuade people from pursuing certain real life relationships because they feel like they have their co-star guiding them.

They don't need to connect with that Scorpio that they went on a date with or confide in their parents to talk about a problem because whatever the pattern told them, they would be fine. I wanna quote from a few pieces that we read on this matter. One is a business insider piece titled, I've been using a popular AI astrology app that sends rude horoscopes. This piece said, one of the notifications that they received from the app felt like

tough love sent by the universe or more accurately by some AI that claimed to interpret the universe as it specifically pertained to me. And I felt just a little less alone. So I find this statement interesting because they know that it's AI. They know that it's rude. And yet they still were honoring the emotional benefits that they gleaned from it. Another quote from that Washington Post piece

that we keep citing said, "'Co-star told me that I express love "'through work and routine "'and that I'm preoccupied with death. The pattern told me that I have trouble with codependency, that others might see me as insensitive, and that I have dated emotionally unstable partners. Sanctuary told me I can be selfish, competitive,

and preoccupied with fears and doubts. So these are like really bold statements analyzing someone, not from an in-person interaction, this is not a therapy setting, this person probably needed therapy, but they're getting these things from, analyzing someone not from an in-person interaction. This is not a therapy setting. This person probably needed therapy, but they're getting these things from, again, these really profit-driven apps. So my question for you, Aliza, is when it comes to astrology apps, where is the line between a prompt for healthy self-reflection that even if it was written by AI is kind of neither here nor

there and culty disinformation? I mean, it is a slippery slope, right? Like if you can cultivate trust or a habit, then you can really pull those levers at any time, you know? And you can experiment with them, but you have the ability to manipulate the information and the reception of that information. And there's another piece of this too, right? Which is that some of these apps,

their funnel is actually getting you on the phone or on a chat, on a Zen desk, with someone on the other end, right? And this, the psychic hotline model is tale as old as time, right? Like we know the psychic hotlines from the infomercials from when we're kids and they're innocent seeming enough, almost more like sad than anything.

But I think that in the age of technology, in the age of access, in the age of crypto, in the age of time, not even feeling like time anymore, you know, you can be chatting with someone on the other end Still in the age of time, not even feeling like time anymore, you can be chatting with someone on the other end and the next thing you know, you've racked up two hours of a dollar a minute. There are a lot of implications

and the power that these apps have is very different than calling a psychic hotline, which is more of a fringe thing to do. This is now widespread to scale calling a psychic hotline for, you know, which is more of a fringe thing to do. This is now like widespread to scale and can be turned on at any point. And as someone who has consulted for apps that employ people, I have to tell you that a lot of the people on the other end of this are making such little money in their time and for their resources that they are not real astrologers, psychics, tarot readers,

because the economics of that don't make sense, right? So who's willing to get paid $12 an hour or whatever it is to give someone a reading? It's not gonna be someone necessarily who has their own practice. It's not gonna be someone necessarily who has their own practice. It's not gonna be someone necessarily who has invested their own time and energy into cultivating a client base.

It's gonna be whoever signs up to do this work on these platforms. Or it's just AI, right? It's probably going to become more and more just simply a robot. And the implications for that obviously are very dystopian, but also very scary. We've seen what can happen with AI.

We know that if you continue that conversation long enough, AI starts to tell you all kinds of weirdo things. And if you're trusting that someone is on the other end of that and they're gifted in intuition and they're telling you, I think you actually should break up with your husband. I think you actually should get a divorce. I think you actually should transfer your money

to this account and to invest in this crypto. Like Houston, we have a problem. Yeah, we're gonna touch on some more of those astrology apps that explicitly pray more on finances a little bit later because I find those super interesting. But I love what you said about astrology apps being so particularly culty because they're mainstream and trendy in a way that like calling a psychic is not. And that's something I really identify with. When CoStar was blowing up,

I was in high school and I was kind of like a casual astrology enjoyer before that, but I downloaded it like everybody else. But I really identified a lot with what this person wrote in Business Insider in that article about the popular AI astrology app that sends rude horoscopes, which is, quote, star spoiler alert. They also wrote, before CoStar, I wasn't an astrology fanatic. Typical Aquarius individualistic thinking, I know. But the app's real genius is perhaps in locating its key demographic. It was all the rage at my women's college, so I hopped on what seemed like a relatively harmless bandwagon. Which obviously happened to me and makes the use of AI both more necessary and so much more insidious because it's reaching so many people and so

many young people at that, which is so scary. So, Aliza, do you think that the astrology world is becoming more entangled with people's lives over time and in their decision-making in recent years because of the apps? I do. I do think that people have a changing relationship with astrology. I think that in a way, it actually looks more like the astrology that was practiced before the 20th century. I think it's a little more fatalistic than it is psychological now. I think that people want prediction more than they did when I first started this work. That makes a lot of sense considering where we are culturally.

And I think the apps too, because their main skill lies in marketing, they've really wedged themselves into culture such that in certain spaces, potentially vulnerable ones, you kind of might feel pressure to use the apps just in order to like have something to talk about with your community. I mean, I remember like when I was single and dating in the queer community, I didn't use CoStar and that was, that hurt me. My dating.

Minus points for you. Literally, minus points for me. I would like to think that there were a few people who I could have sealed the deal with that I didn't because I just didn't have a CoStar vocabulary to bring to the table. And so it's like, that's a low stakes example, but these apps really are wedging their way into people's real lives and decision-making with regard to relationships and politics and money

in a way that is sometimes overt, but sometimes more subtle. Yeah. So as astrology apps make astrology more trendy, astrology is leeching itself into all of the hottest different subcultural groups as astrology becomes more mainstream, one of those being the wellness industry. Again, circling back to that Washington Post piece, I'm going to read a statement from it. Astrology has seamlessly integrated with the wellness industry.

Most people who are using these apps aren't trying to predict the future. They see it as a tool for self discovery and emotional exploration. And marketing has kept pace, pivoting from witchy spirituality to the blandly luxe aesthetic of goop. It's talked about in the same breath

as vitamins, yoga, or a spa treatment. And for a generation that has struggled financially and emotionally, but lacks access to affordable mental health care, some may even be using it as a cheap substitute. And I think this really brings us back to people turning to astrology and times of societal tumult when we maybe need mental health care that we can't afford. So what do you think is potentially dangerous about astrology ops from a perspective of mental health? I do think that there are a lot of dangers here. Let me rip this apart for a second because I do

think astrology is wellness, period. You know, I do think that astrology is a practice in wellness. And although the goop aesthetic is not mine, I understand that that sort of like whitewashed, very clinical way of experiencing wellness. Had a moment? Is still in the moment? I'm not sure. It does seem like, I mean it's never been my taste so it's it doesn't appeal to me, but I also think it might also be on its way out. Suffice it to say astrology is wellness and it deserves a place in wellness. It deserves a place at retreats. It deserves a place in spas. It really is an incredible way of being able to see

and experience different dimensions of yourself. And it's not psychology. It's simply a different practice. A hundred years ago, psychology was just beginning and it was deemed a pseudoscience and it was seen as just full of quacks. Over the past hundred years, psychology has proved itself and mental health awareness

has proved itself to be an increasingly critical part of our culture. And psychologists use and go to school and acquire skills that enable them to be counselors and support people. That is not the journey of an astrologer. We have different skills and different credentials and different ways of seeing the world, and you cannot replace one for the other. Your therapist cannot become your astrologer, and your astrologer cannot become your therapist. But in a time like we are in now, when so many people are struggling and suffering and mental health is so poor,

you need a therapist before you needed a strong manager. I believe. But also at the same time, I will say, when I started this journey, I started it in tandem with my first therapist. At the same time that I was going and starting therapy, I was also learning about my astrological profile and studying my first therapist. At the same time that I was going and starting therapy, I was also learning about my astrological profile and studying my birth chart.

And I was bringing this to my therapist who was not an astrologer and saying like, it's really interesting you're saying that because I see, you know, I'm a Pisces moon and that really checks out for me. And she was like, oh, good, I'm glad that you're finding a tool that helps you metabolize what we're talking about here.

So both are really important, but certainly the TikTok astrologer who started practicing astrology in 2022, who has had no counseling on trauma, is not the person that you should go to with your clinical CPTSD or BPD, you know? Yes, I really appreciate you pointing this out because this is why we have a cultish spectrum, right? Live your life, watch your back, get the fuck out. It's cheeky, it's not scientific, it's not real, but much like astrology itself, it is a helpful tool for understanding where certain communities and practices belong in our lives and where they don't. And I really appreciate you pointing out

that there is a time and a place for astrology and it's not for everybody, but you don't have to yuck somebody's yum. And at the very same time, you don't have to force a yum on someone all the time. Yeah, don't force a yum, yeah. Don't force the yum. So like I think these astrology apps

with their push notifications and their miss and disinformation and the TikTok astrologers not being motivated to really heal people, but being incentivized to fulfill their own bottom line, whatever that may be, that reminds me of like a core message that we want to communicate on the show in betwixt all of the giggles, which is that when a community

convinces you that it deserves a place in every single pocket of your life, that's a sign that it's too cultish for comfort. Like a cult leader wants to be your therapist, your lover, your chiropractor, your accountant, you know, like a cult leader wants to play all of those roles in your life. And if your costar notifications are suggesting that they are appropriate to apply to how you invest in stocks and also who you date, that's a red ass flag. Speaking of, you know, astrology showing up

in places where it doesn't belong, there are already apps for predicting which stocks you should invest in based on your horoscope. There's one called bull and moon. Like that was not a fake example. There are also TikTok astrologers who build followings in cloud based on making political predictions.

I just came across a piece written by a Columbia journalism school reporter named Diba Madasham about astrologers making political predictions and, you know, getting huge engagement by doing so. In this piece, one TikTok astrologer named Lori Rivers was quoted. She said that her TikTok numbers doubled after Biden dropped out of the presidential race in July of 2024. The piece said, quote, nobody goes to an astrologer when things are going great. Rather, they seek such counsel when they are at a crossroads.

Well, the nation's at a crossroads. So people are going to, in uncertainty, seek answers. And it's not an individual astrologer's fault when people come to them for answers, but there is a responsibility on the part of certain astrologers and certainly astrological apps to make a decision about whether or not it's appropriate for them to respond. And that's when you kind of distinguish yourself as a cult leader or not.

In general, I just think like astrology apps can be a launchpad for much more sinister, irrational, new agey to QAnon-y engagement with facts and reality, whether you're talking about mental health or finances or physical health or anything else. That fucking said, now we want to play a game. We do want to play a game. So one of the potential cult categories that ended up on the chopping block for this episode was culty language because of how cryptic and weird and culty these notifications are

from these apps, as we spoke about partially because they have to be so vague. Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi

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Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez-Morales-Gigi Sanchez- Of course. So Amanda and I are going to take turns giving you quotes and you are going to guess if they are from an astrology app or from a techie cult leader. Oh my God, this is genius. Okay. Cultie quotes. A classic sounds like a cult game, but I feel like it's never been applied more appropriately than right here and right now. Okay.

Was the following quote said by a techie cult leader currently at large or specifically co-star? Try not to waste your time on people who act like you don't exist. Co-star? Correct. You're right. Okay. Next one. Everyone needs a coach. Keith Renier. That's a good guess. That's a really good guess. It is Bill Gates, actually.

Love it. But you were accurate in that it was a non-astrology app cult leader. No, you were. Okay, what about this one? Connectivity is a human right. I think it's a techie cult leader. I think it sounds like Mark Zuckerberg to me. Oh my God, you're so good at this.

Wait, I'm so fucking shook. You're literally exactly right. You got it. It's so him. Oh my, you make me believe. Aliza, you make me fucking believe. I'm enlightened. Okay, next one.

Imitate and steal like a great artist. Oh, that's a good one. And a notification. Yes, that is co-star. You are correct. That was co-star. Oh my God. I feel like I'm on Jeopardy. This co-star. You are correct. That was co-star. Oh my God. I feel like I'm on Jeopardy.

This is really fun. You're winning. You're winning. Oh my God, I want to play this all day. I might lose now. You can't lose. We all win and lose at the same time. It's true.

Yeah, losing is okay also. Totally. Next one goes like this. Maybe you just need a good roll around in the hay. A notification. Yeah. Fucking correct. I'm always trying to make a cheeky little sex reference

to sound human, you little AI relapse. Maybe it's Capricorn Jeff Bezos. I don't know. LOL. Last quote. There will always be serendipity involved in discovery. Techie. Correct.

Yes. Do you want to guess who? Yeah, I think it's Steve Jobs. Very close. No, it was Bezos. That was Bezo. You mentioned like 15 seconds ago. That was Bezos?

Okay, Bezos doing Steve Jobs. Oh my God, but you were freakishly good at that. You were freakishly good at that. Listen, I have spent time on both sides of the aisle. Like I know how to make the copy and I also have talked to these tech bros, so I know them all. Incredible.

Thank you so much for this heart on sleeve, head on platter interview. Really appreciate it. If folks wanna keep up with you and your work and your, what sounds to be a pretty live your life level cult, where can they do that? Yes, you can find me on my podcast, Horoscope Weekly, which comes out every Monday.

And then also I'm chronically online everywhere at Aliza Kelly, A-L-I-Z-A-K-E-L-L-Y. Gorgeous. Hey. at Aliza Kelly, A-L-I-Z-A-K-E-L-L-Y. Gorgeous. Now, Reese, out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out. Which one do you think the cult of astrology apps falls into? Get the fuck out!

Get the fuck off of my phone! Get the fuck out of my astrology, AI! I so agree! Okay, tell me more. I really just feel like there's no need for any of them to exist, especially in the current form we've learned that they do. And I feel like it's just contributing to the way too much content we're consuming every day that leaves little room for critical thought.

I'm already sus as hell of the role that astrology is increasingly playing in the spiritual lives of young people. Do I think it's as sinister as institutionalized religion? Of course not. Do I think it's creepy that it has paved the way to make truly irrational, new agey, sometimes destructive and oppressive and like dangerous from a public health perspective decisions? Yes, I find that fucked up. I find that culty. I want to hold the women in my community to a higher standard than that. And I say women because most of the people I know who dabble in astrology are women. But when you add in the power of Silicon Valley in the tech industry, good night and good luck. Like, no, this shit is a get the fuck out, babe. Leave. Delete!

Yeah, I think for astrology you have to go fully analog. No. No apps at all. You better get out your telescope, babe. Whip out your protractor. Let's go. Yeah, 100%. It was a happy medium. Find a reputable trusted source that's not CoStar. Oh my God, maybe in Los Angeles, astrology apps are so popular because there's too much light pollution and smog. People can't see the actual stars,

so they have to learn about them on their phone. Astrology apps? Astrology apps. I get the fuck out. I get the fuck out. Okay, agreed, I love agreeing. Well, that is our show. Thank you so much for listening. We'll be back with a new cult next week, but in the meantime. I love agreeing. Well, that is our show. Thank you so much for listening.

We'll be back with a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. Sounds Like a Cult is hosted and produced by Amanda Montell and edited by Jordan Moore of the PodCabin. Our theme music is by Casey Cold. This episode was co-hosted and co-produced by Reese Oliver. Thank you as well to Katie Epperson. And if you like the show, please feel free to check out my

books, Word Slut, A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language, Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality. If you're a fan of Sounds Like a Cult, I'd really appreciate it if you would leave a rating and review on Spotify or Apple podcasts. ["Sounds Like a Cult"] Question for you, culties. Have you ever wished you could step into the shoes of a detective solving mysteries

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