Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Ballet

Episode Date: May 21, 2024

Lace yourselves up for this haunting and twinkle-toed episode covering one of our most consistently requested topics: Ballet! Despite the tutus and baby pink palette, this ruthlessly competitive industry often seems less like a dainty art form and more like a doggone cult. Think about it: Why do we audience members just blindly accept and support an industry helmed by power abusive men, who have absolutely no problem taking little girls away from their families, working them to the bone, and literally starving them, all in pursuit of so-called greatness? Orrrrrr is that take a bit dramatic? To help us figure it out, podcast producer and former ballerina Erika Lantz, host of THE TURNING, joins the pod for a deep discush of how culty the ballet world is really.  Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod @amanda_montell To order Amanda's new book, The Age of Magical Overthinking: Notes on Modern Irrationality, click here :) To subscribe to new Magical Overthinkers podcast click here! Thank you to our sponsors, who make this show possible: Dipsea is offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to DipseaStories.com/cult.  Go to Zocdoc.com/CULT and download the Zocdoc app for FREE. Go to the App Store or Google Play store and download the FREE Ibotta app to start earning cash back and use code CULT. Head to Squarespace.com for a free trial, and when you’re ready to launch, go to https://www.squarespace.com/CULT to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

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search and compare highly rated in network doctors near you. Go to zockdock.com slash cult and download the ZockDock app for free. Then find and book a top rated doctor today. That's z-o-c-d-o-c dot com slash cult, zockdock.com slash cult. Don't splurge on anything new this spring without getting cash back in return when you use ABADA. Right now, ABADA is offering our listeners $5 just for trying ABATA by using the code COLT when you register. Just go to the App Store or Google Play Store and download the free ABATA app to start earning cash back and use code COLT. That's I-B-O-T-T-A in the Google Play or App Store and use code COLT. Thank you so much to our sponsor, Squarespace. Start with a free trial at squarespace.com. It's where dreams become websites. Head to squarespace.com for a free trial.

And when you're ready to launch, go to https://www.squarespace.com slash cult to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. One ballerina I talked to said, it takes 10 years to feel like a normal person after you leave, literally 10 years. And I think it can take a long time to even unpack like what it is that has affected you about ballet. And I think some of what can affect you is realizing that you didn't have a normal childhood and you didn't have certain psychosocial development that

other kids get to have. This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host Amanda Montel, author of the book's cultish and the brand new book, The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality, which is out now. You can get it in hardback ebook, audiobook, I recorded it myself. Super proud of it. Hope you like it. Every week on the show you're gonna hear about a different fanatical fringe guru or guru from the cultural zeitgeist. From chiropractors to homeschooling, from glossier to goop, which we discuss and analyze and make

little jokes about to try and answer the big question, this group sounds like a cult, but is it really? And if so, how bad is it? Is it a live-your-life, a watch-your-back, or a get-the-fuck-out-level cult? After all, cultishness is not always equally destructive. Sometimes it's cute and sometimes it's really, really bad. Today's Cult of the Week. Ooh, it is a juicy one, a much requested topic and one that is endlessly fascinating to me. Today we're talking about the Cult of Ballet.

Ugh. This is one of these cults that has sent me down YouTube rabbit holes, Instagram rabbit holes. It's one of those cult-like spaces that I know I will never be a part of because I have two freaking left feet. Line dancing is the only type of dance that I can do and because I know it will never accept me, I am thus enraptured by it, drawn to it. I watch YouTube videos of Russian ballerinas breaking their bodies, pushing their bodies to the extreme, these gorgeous, tortured women, because I'm terrified of ballet and I also admire it. I'm mesmerized by it. Oh, what a good topic for Sounds Like a Cult. I'm excited to get into the episode, but before we do, I did want to mention real quick that not only

is my new book, The Age of Magical Overthinking out, but I just launched a brand new podcast to go with it. It's called Magical Overthinkers and I'm doing that simultaneously along with Sounds Like a Cult. It is a podcast for thought spirallers exploring the buzzy confounding subjects we can't stop overthinking about from narcissism to polyamory to social media comparison to cannibalism. There's also like a little advice section at the end of every episode where I provide an actionable tidbit of wisdom for how we overthinkers can get out of our own heads that week. The show just premiered and I would love you culties to subscribe. Check it out. Our first episode is called Overthinking about Narcissism. I interviewed the narcissism scholar, Dr. Ramani.

I'm going to link both my book and the new podcast in the show notes here. But back to this episode, The Cult of Ballet, stick around because we have such a wonderful guest host joining us in a bit. Her name is Erica Lance. She is an award-winning audio producer and reporter who also grew up a pretty serious ballet dancer and made a whole podcast about the sort of cult-like atmosphere of ballet called The Turning, which you should definitely check out. But before we get into it with Erica and all of her personal experiences and her expert analysis, I wanted to give a little bit of history and background because this is truly one of those cults that seems like, eh, how bad could it be on the surface?

Until you peek behind the veil, behind the curtain, behind the proscenium stage. Okay, let's go way back in time here. According to a piece published by the Pittsburgh Ballet Theatre titled A Brief History of Ballet, ballet emerged at the height of the Italian Renaissance in the 15th century. It was fancy from the beginning. It was Italiano. Initially, ballet was just taught to nobility by dance masters and it was intended to be performed at formal events like weddings. Catherine de' Medici, wife of King Henry II

and patron of the arts, funded ballet in the French court. Ballet mami, thank you, grazie. About a century later, King Louis IV, who was a dancer himself, would popularize the art form even further. By the 19th century, ballet was ascending to previously unseen levels of popularity and, at the same time, exclusivity, partially due to the creation of narrative ballet.

So most of the ballets that those of us outside the cult are somewhat familiar with, including Swan Lake and The Nutcracker. It was all the rage in those 1800s. It was the love is blind of the moment. This is also around the time when point was heavily implemented, you know, when the poor dancers have to stand up on their tippy toes on a block of fucking wood. Ugh, so painful. But it really wasn't until the early 20th century when the cultish aspects of ballet that I think popped to mind for most of us, the unbelievable dedication, the elitism, the body standards, really came to the fore. And that was thanks to the arguable cult leader of this whole frickin' shebang, George

Balanchine. He was now dead, he died in the 80s, so we can talk shit about him and he won't sue us. I'm kidding, no I'm not. So George Balanchine, major cult figure in the ballet world. The ballet that we all know, or at least are somewhat familiar with today, would not exist without this motherfucker.

He was a Russian dancer and choreographer who moved to New York and founded the infamous prestigious School of American Ballet in 1934. The school trained dancers for the New York City Ballet. This is the elite of the elite, the creme de la creme. The New York City Ballet was also founded by George Balanchine a little bit later in 1948, it is widely known that George Balanchine had the perfect storm of cult leader traits. The dude had this filterlessness to him. He spoke his mind and was proud of it. He was arrogant, he was dominating, he was talented legitimately, so that's a plot twist for a cult leader, and he was the

pioneer of a new style of ballet called the neo-classical style. So many former School of American Ballet dancers have come forward and described George Balanchine as a cult leader separately. A dancer named Alexandra Waterbury said in an interview with The Guardian, literally titled, It's Like a Cult, that George Balanchine was like a god. She mentioned how sexual misconduct permeated the world of ballet. George Balanchine is credited with having invented the concept of ballet muses, and he was known for having inappropriate and coercive relationships with incredibly young

dancers who idol-worshipped him. Here's a creepy fun fact. Several of these sources from this Guardian piece noted that Balanchine would assign different perfume scents to his favorite dancers so he could track their whereabouts in any given theater by their smell. Eugh! This woman named Madison Mainwaring, who's a scholar of 19th century literature and cultural history, recently published a write-up in the New Republic about a former School of American Ballet dancer named Alice Robb who wrote a memoir called Don't Think Dear on Loving and Leaving Ballet.

This write-up was called The Struggle to Save Ballet from Itself. And she wrote about how, even though Robb wasn't trained by Balanchine himself, but rather his equally sketchy successor, Peter Martin, she could feel his godlike presence not only in the way that she danced, but in the way that she lived her life. Balanchinian teachings were so entrenched. Alice Robb said that this adherence to his methods led her to waste her younger years, and I quote, enthrall to a deceased cult leader. That is how powerful this man was. This cultural critic, Mainwaring, noted in the piece that most Balanchine ballerinas wind up post-retirement as, and I quote, vessels

of his technique, living to teach his methods. Almost like those remaining Nexium followers dancing outside the prison cell of Keith Raniere. Alice Robb wrote an article herself for Vogue titled, My Whole Life Was Ballet, What Did It Mean to Give It Up? And in it she said, This will always be his institution, even if he's been dead for 20 years. This motherfucker was so powerful that he continues to haunt the ballet world. So I'm fucking foaming at the mouth for you to hear my conversation with Erica, but first let's move through a little analyzing, a little unpacking of some of the cultiest qualities of the ballet world. I asked our Sounds Like a Cult listeners on Instagram

what culty stereotypes of ballet dancers first come to mind for them. And I swear to God, like 90% of the responses had to do with eating disorders. And this is a stereotype for a reason. And it's again, because of George Balanchine. So many dancers, including Alice Robb, have claimed that the dude was not shy about criticizing his dancers' bodies, going so far as to prod their bodies and tell them that in order for him to be happy, he must see the bones. And naturally, this resulted in these super unhealthy, extreme caloric restriction diets for many ballerinas, which became a whole part of the culture. There was a 1987 book called The Dancer's Body Book, which recommended a 500 calorie diet for ballet dancers. How you're expected to fricking triple pirouette on that little I will never understand. According

to an eating disorder specialist named Michelle Warren, the rate of eating disorders for dancers is 20 times higher than the general population. And some have explicitly noted that the attention that these ballerina starvation diets attracted sort of served as inspiration for later super controlling cults like NXIVM, whose leader Keith Renieri also put his young women followers on similar starvation diets. Controlling female members' food intake is a not totally uncommon cult tactic, and some have claimed that the ballet world is partially responsible for that. But what makes the ballet world complicated is, of course, it's not just torture. It is a beautiful art form. It provides people with such an incredible sense of meaning. For many dancers, the suffering at the hands of institutions like

the School of American Ballet was simply the price they were willing to pay for getting to lose themselves in this art form at such a transcendent high level. Alice Robb wrote, Even as the trappings of ballet, the competition, the impossible physical standards, the punishing hours can be a source of profound anxiety and distress. Ballet itself, the movement, the music, the choreography is simultaneously a salve for these emotions.

But the prices that some of these schools require you to pay are so expensive, metaphorically, and also literally, it begs the question, like, is it really worth it? One of the cultiest things pointed out by that Guardian piece I mentioned earlier is that ballet permeates the identity of its dancers so hardcore that even after they leave the quote unquote cult, they've never really been able to cultivate a sense of self, a sense of boundaries, a sense of care for their own bodies and minds. This piece pointed out that dancers are rarely encouraged to seek education outside of these studios. You're

expected to sacrifice everything for the honor of becoming an elite ballet dancer. Obviously ballet schedules are ridiculously demanding, even if you're not at the highest levels. I mean, I took ballet as a kid up until the eighth grade and there was this pride in torturing yourself or pushing yourself to the brink, dancing hours and hours and hours every week, even if you were like me and you weren't even good.

Even more than in the cult of theater kids, I'd say in ballet, there is this incredibly cult-like standard that tells you that the only way to have a shot at making it is to devote your life completely to it. So before we get into it with Erica, I think we do need to linger a little bit more on this subject of sexual abuse in ballet because it is such a profound part

of what makes this industry culty. That dancer Alexander Waterbury spoke to the Guardian about a lawsuit that she filed against both the New York City Ballet and the dancer Chase Finley, by whom Waterbury was allegedly sexually assaulted. She explained that she sued the New York City Ballet because she believes they perpetuate a culture that fosters assaults like hers in the name of, and I quote, protecting an image and prolonging the lineage of someone like George Balanchine. This piece talked about how so many ballet greats like Antony Tudor and Jerome Robbins were known for unsavory and sometimes violent conduct towards women. The gender dynamics of this whole thing literally mirror the gender dynamics of a group like

the Manson family. Indeed, although ballet is dominated by women in terms of like number of dancers, the power is held mostly by men. They choreographed 80% of the work performed by America's 50 largest companies from 2018 to 2020. That's a fucking wild stat. I struggle to think of another industry, maybe modeling, but not even, that has like such fucked up dynamics where those who are worshipped and also profiting are men, but almost everyone who's worshipping them and creating those profits are women. I'll say here. In a truly chilling account of her experiences with assault in the ballet industry, actor and former dancer Suvi Honkanen wrote in a ballet blog titled Ballet with Isabella about

a director that she declines to name saying, and I quote, that she lived in the understanding that this was all because he wanted to help me, but it wasn't long until I got the feeling that I owed him something. I just didn't know what. However, my blind trust and belief that it was all for my own good made me compliant and silent. And I endured psychologically abusive behavior for years before questioning any of it, telling myself, maybe I imagined it all. Maybe nothing happened. Maybe I was just too inexperienced and dramatic. Maybe I shouldn't trust myself. This is a woman who's talking about ballet. It sounds like she's talking about a cult. Now we try not to be too sensationalist

on Sounds Like a Cult, Believe It or Not. So I do wanna give some space to acknowledge the positives and the beauty that exists within ballet. They are there, no doubt about it. So please prepare for a nuanced, balanced conversation with my very special guest host today. Please welcome former dancer and audio extraordinaire, Erica Lance.

And now a quick break to hear from our cult followed sponsors. Question for my smutty little listeners. Did you just finish A Court of Thorns and Roses and are craving another fantasy world to devour? Dipsy's got you. Dipsy is an app full of hundreds of short, spicy audio stories. They bring scenarios to life with immersive soundscapes and realistic characters. And for my genre lovers, there's a growing library of fantasy series with

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And guess how I found my dentist using ZocDoc. This is a true story. Okay, let me put it this way. We all know that there are things in life that we have to compromise, like on what to have for dinner or what show to watch. But when it comes to your health, there is no compromise. Do not make going to the doctor more difficult than it has to be like I used to.

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The typical wait time to see a doctor booked on ZocDoc is between just 24 and 72 hours. That's it. You can even score same-day appointments. I have done this. I use it. You should too. Go to zocdoc.com slash cult and download the ZocDoc app for free. Then find and book a top rated doctor today. That's z-o-c-d-o-c dot com slash cult, zocdoc.com slash cult. Hi, Erica. This has been kind of a long time coming, I feel.

Yes. Thank you so much for your patience, by the way. No, truly, thank you. Could you please introduce yourself and your work to our listeners and how you're connected to the cult of ballet? My name is Erica, and I host another podcast called The Turning, and season two is called The Turning Room with Mirrors, and it's all about ballet. My personal background is I grew up studying ballet,

got really into it, took it very seriously. It was kind of the focus of my life until my mid-teens when I ended up quitting. And then I didn't really think about it for almost 20 years, and then I made this podcast where I re-entered that world. Oh man, I think about ballet all the time for someone who did ballet for five minutes

when I was a little kid, quickly proved myself terrible at it and then remained obsessed with it ever since. It's like the one that got away, like I couldn't, my head like flat-footed and was obsessed with ballerinas. I mean, one of my top YouTube searches whenever I like click in to waste three hours watching random shit online is ballet

and ballerinas. I just love to watch those little ladies torture themselves. There's something that ballet just draws people in that way. It is something that when you're not in it, you can have this fascination with it. And it's interesting how you put that, watching these ladies torture themselves. Because I think, weirdly, there's this morbid fascination that people have with the pain that is part of ballet too. Literally. When I watch ballerina vlogs or documentaries, who makes those little fake documentaries on YouTube and just uploads them? I don't know. But whenever I'm on like ballet tube fully, my body feels like it's watching true crime. Yes, because you're like, how are their bodies doing that? What is happening? And when I was

interviewing people for this project, and these are people in the industry, ballet compared ballerinas to aliens in terms of how they're perceived by the rest of us, because they're able to do things with their bodies that can feel incomprehensible if you can't do them yourself. And all you can think is, man, doesn't that hurt? Yeah. And their makeup is alien-gelic and shiny. Okay. So to kick us off, when I say the cult of ballet, thinking about it through that lens, what qualities instantly pop to mind for you? Well, there is definitely ingrained in ballet culture, a sense of reverence for authority and a singular person of authority, usually whoever is in front of the room. And that can continue to go up this

chain of authority up to the big directors, the big choreographers in the field. When I think of the cult of ballet, because of this podcast that I made about ballet, I think right away of George Balanchine, because we ended up focusing on him as this unusually large figure in ballet who casts the shadow on the art form to this day, even though he's no longer alive. And he constantly is compared to a god in ballet. He's like the Shakespeare of ballet.

And if you know a choreographer's name and you're not in ballet, it's probably George Balanchine. The father, the son, the holy Balanchine. Yes, exactly. You get it. I watched Center Stage. Actually, well, I mean, I don't know what was going on in the 90s, but like that whole slew of movies from Center Stage to Save the Last Dance all the way to I feel like Step

Up really birthed a generation of people who romanticized, okay, I guess Step Up isn't about ballet. But you know what I'm saying? The sort of rebel ballerina who didn't want to be that girl. Absolutely. And I remember watching those movies at slumber parties with my fellow ballet school students and just watching them over and over again. Totally. To re-indoctrinate yourself. Okay, so George Valanchine is God. So tell me more about that power hierarchy.

Well, he really had inordinate power over his dancers and it's connected to this belief in this like higher power and higher purpose where dance and ballet takes on this religiosity that's very extreme. And I totally get it because when you are dancing, you feel like you're connecting to something higher and it's an amazing feeling. There are these high highs and then come these low lows. And he really wanted his dancers to commit fully in body and spirit. He didn't want his dancers to be dating. He didn't want his dancers to have children. Oh my God. It's like monk-like almost.

Absolutely. One of the dancers, actually multiple people I interviewed who were ballet dancers, compared it to being a nun, especially from that era. And like if you were dating someone, you tried to hide it from him and he wanted to control how their bodies looked and would comment on their bodies very explicitly telling them they need to lose weight, which leads to controlling kind of what they're eating, how they're spending their time. And there is this ideal of showing fervor to prove how much you love ballet. One person I interviewed was like, it's not just that you want to do these impossibly difficult combinations, because he was known for that, like asking dancers to do something that should be impossible and kind of testing them to see if they'll go for it, even though it's impossible

And it's like not only do you want to show that you're willing to do it? But you want to show that you you have this fervor around doing it for him and that would be like a way to prove your devotion Oh my god, so there's so much at play here There's like the very real physiological thing of you're pushing your body to its breaking point. You're experiencing pain, but you're also experiencing the incredible endorphins and dopamine release from performing and from like nailing a routine.

But then also there's the sort of like psychosocial aspect made even more intense by this godlike figure. So was George Balanchine, in your opinion, like one of the first figures to make ballet like a full cult or did he just like bring it to the next level? I don't think he's the first person by any means. I think he brought it to another level and he also brought it to another level in this country. And also he made it a cultural phenomenon here in the United States. I mean, he made it so that ballet was something you'd regularly see on TV. It was a phenomenon then waited that it isn't today.

And it was like a center of the New York art scene. I mean, ballet still is, but like to another level back then. What era are we talking about, by the way, just for context? 50s, 60s, 70s. Oh, 50s, 60s, 70s. By no coincidence, a peak cold era. There you go. Some people are on a compound, dancing in a circle, doing ayahuasca, and some people

are on point. Absolutely. And he grew up in Russia where he went to a boarding school that was completely devoted to ballet. And all of the other students were learning ballet and they had a very militaristic schedule waking up at a certain time and that was your entire life and was living in the theater and doing this. And he brought that cultural expectation to the United States and added his own twist. Right. Okay. So obviously like we're talking about the power structure, we're talking about

the hierarchy that George Balanchine created and exacerbated. But can you further break down the industry in terms of who holds power? Like I was a theater kid, which is like ballet adjacent, but theater kids are so sloppy and kids who do ballet are so like they have their shit tight. But I remember going to like a theater program at Lincoln Center one summer and we shared dorms with the SAB kids. Oh, wow. School of American Ballet for those who don't know. But like I was totally in awe of them.

I was like, what happens when my dog sees a horse? Like I would just like bow down to them. Like I was so in awe of them. So I knew that like the School of American Ballet was a big deal. And I also went to performing art school. So like, I heard of the Joffrey and whatever. But are there certain like ballet schools, ballet companies that are like cults within cults and who are the leaders throughout the industry? So School of American Ballet is the classic example. and yes, going away for the summer and getting into this impossibly difficult and selective program to move into dorms and suddenly your

whole life is ballet and you're a teenager or younger, you're a kid. And what then often happens is at the end of the summer, you might get an offer to stay on. And so then you move to New York as a kid and leave your family behind and suddenly your whole world is ballet. And I think there's that cult-like aspect that's built into the industry where you suddenly are giving up everything else to become a ballerina and it's your whole world. So it's a lot harder to leave, you know, if all of your friends, you leave your family behind and it's the only cultural input that you have. And it creates this pipeline where certain notions

of authority are very normalized. You don't know anything else. And when you get your first job in the industry, you have no context for what is an okay boundary to cross and what's not. All you know is you don't speak up in class, you're supposed to remain quiet, listen to corrections, do as you're told,

and you learn to smile through the pain. That's something that's really pounded in. Oh my God, it's like in one other context, is it not only okay, but fully celebrated to have a bunch of children going through intense physical torture, bowing to like a Russian dictator separate from their parents. And we're like, not only is this fine, we love this. We stan this. These kids are special. I mean, it is so unbelievably cult. The parallel is truly bananas. Because in cults, often mistreatment is passed off as special treatment because you're a part of this exclusive, larger than life, higher vibration group. And that's exactly what

you're describing. It's crazy. Yes. One person I interviewed for the podcast, Theresa Ruth Howard said, it's mythologizing trauma for the art. Oh my god. Duh. Yes. And I feel like, you know, there is a bit of this and other sort of like high art forums that train children from very, very young, like intense classical pianists, athletes to like gymnasts or swimmers. But there's something even more elite and like bougie and prestigious

and that's like religious about the ballet world. It's got like an extra spicy traumatic ingredient in there. ["Dreams of a Star-Spangled Banner"] Do you like money? I'm just kidding. ingredient in there. Do you like money? I'm just kidding. No, I'm not. I'm here to tell you how to save more of it with Abbata. Abbata is a free app that gives you the most cashback every time you shop on hundreds of items

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Can we talk a little bit more about like your background? Can you talk about like how you were recruited into the cult of ballet, so to speak, and what your journey was in the cult and getting out of it? Well, I fell in love with dance basically before I could walk practically. And I used to be dancing in my high chair. There's just something so compelling about feeling like your body is embodying music and I loved it as a kid. And then of course, my parents took me to the Nutcracker when I was like a toddler. And I think that is the entry point. It always starts with the damn Nutcracker.

It is like a dreamscape. But I came out of that wanting to dance and I was just begging, begging, begging, begging to go to class. And finally, I did start when I was three. And that's the story for so many people and you get sucked in and you know, actually now that I think of it, the Nutcracker helps keep you into because one thing that cults do is like there are different levels you can get to and you continue to want to get to that next level. And it's like, oh, if I just get to that next level, right. And in ballet, there are levels. And then every year you're in the Nutcracker as a kid, starting from maybe age eight. And you see all of the older kids and all these parts and roles that you could dance in future years of the

Nutcracker. And so, oh, if I stay next year, maybe I'll get to dance the Spanish dance, or maybe I'll get to be a snowflake. And you can't help, I want to do it. That's, because you're teaching these children to aspire to the highest level that they can achieve in life is dressing up as a mouse. But the world is so insular that that becomes your highest life goal. Okay, so you were like, great, Nutcracker, I can't wait. And then how did your participation in the cult progress? Did you notice red flags at any point? I think I noticed red flags when I just was really sad a lot of the time.

I mean, I had to quit a lot of things that I was doing to be dancing and I didn't really want to leave them. And it just. I've had this existential turmoil of why am I giving up everything? I don't even know if I want to be a professional dancer, but this is the thing about ballet is you have to commit at such a young age that it's like, well, if you want any chance of doing it, this is what we're told. People are pushing back on this now, but you're told that, well, you have to go in all in now because you can't do it later. It's now or never. So suddenly you're fully committed. But I think I was just torn because I was like, I love a lot of things and why is this

taking over my life? And I was getting more and more secluded. I actually started homeschooling for a while so that I could focus more on ballet. And so like my world started shrinking. And then I think my main source of unhappiness was, I mean, I loved dancing. Like I never disliked dancing. So that was a source of joy for me. And that's, I mean, I loved dancing. I never disliked dancing, so that was a source of joy for me. And that's what's confusing about it. I loved it. But my main source of unhappiness was my body image and just hating my body. And I didn't even have

a very extreme example of that, but it fully took over my life. And all I can think about was that I didn't like my body and that it needed a change. But I still wasn't ready to leave. And the only way I got out was I had these very persistent recurring injuries that I'd been seeing physical therapists for for years. One time, the physical therapist said to me, we're not seeing the improvement we need. I think you should take the summer off of dance, like a couple months off of dance. Maybe she said six weeks. At the time, it felt like, now this is not true, but in my head it felt like a career ender or just a really big uphill climb because even missing a day of ballet, I felt like I got out of shape. But the moment that she

said that I had to take that time off, I instantly was like, oh, I'm never going back. And I felt very happy and relieved that the decision had been made for me. That's what's so crazy is that sometimes you just need someone on the outside to step in and give you permission to leave. That is why cults don't want you talking to people on the outside. Even doctors, especially doctors. Think about classic cults, you know, like my dad grew up in a cult where they didn't want you to go to the hospital.

If you needed testing done, it had to to be done in the internal cult lab because they didn't want someone planting those things in your mind like maybe this is not healthy for you. I mean, what was that like in terms of just the physical pain and injury that you would endure? How were you sort of coerced to push past that in the cult of ballet? Well, I think you just have to learn to have a high tolerance to pain because a lot of the things that you're doing are just like really difficult. Part of it is in any sport when you're working out and just doing something difficult, it hurts. And so it can be hard to differentiate between like this is good pain and this is actually dangerous pain. But once you start dancing in pointe shoes, I mean, pointe shoes are painful

and your feet are bleeding and they have blisters and- Why haven't they invented dancing in pointe shoes, I mean, pointe shoes are painful and your feet are bleeding and they have blisters and why haven't they invented a better pointe shoe? Are they just like fucking with you all? Like, I know they could invent it's 2024. That's a whole other rabbit hole of yes, we need to have better pointe shoes. And like, there's a weird resistance to changing pointe shoes at all. There's this clinging to tradition.

Okay, cults. You know, there's a lot of shit in religion where it's like, does this really make sense anymore? Like, can we kind of move past it, build upon it, iterate? We could have more comfortable point shoes, probably still not like comfortable, but more comfortable and much safer point shoes. And there are manufacturers who are working on it,

but the resistance is wild to me. Because pain is a barrier to entry, right? And then the longer you experience, this I know because of the book that I just finished writing about cognitive biases, the more you voluntarily endure pain, the more willing you are to justify it. So like, if you are say, building a cabinet

and you accidentally get a splinter while building the cabinet, that's not gonna make you appreciate the final product of the cabinet anymore. But if you are building the cabinet and you volunteer to get a splinter, when that cabinet is done, you're gonna be like, that cabinet is more beautiful

because of the pain that you volunteered to endure. So like, that is a bias that cults exploit, that this cult in particular is exploiting hardcore, is like they want you to endure as much pain for as long as possible, because that is going to encourage you to justify all those years and all that pain that you spent. Mind blown, wow, that's incredible.

And it makes a lot of sense because you are consistently making choices to sacrifice for your art form, which again is a beautiful art form, which I love and which dancers love. And I mean, that's what's hard about it. But it's kind of like this trauma bonds that you develop. It feels like an abusive relationship at times. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Tell me more about the trauma bond aspect. Because like, you know, of course ballet is a beautiful art form. No one would endure the rest of the bullshit if it weren't.

Like that's the thing about cults. It's like there's got to be something good involved or else no one would fucking put up with it. So how did the bond that you developed with your fellow dancers keep you in? Well, I almost see it as like the trauma bond with the art form, where it's your relationship to the art form that you don't want to leave. And you just tolerate those other bitches. Yeah. I mean, I guess that if you're in it for longer, you're going to have more of the interpersonal

bonds in that realm. And that's where you end up with abusive authority figures. And that's where this extremely hierarchical groups with an extreme difference in power between the few who by the way are usually men and the many, the vast majority of whom are women leads to abusive situations. Whoa. Yeah. Can you talk about like some of the power abuse that goes on in like super competitive ballet environments? Like what are we talking about here? Well, in the case of George Balanchine, for example, to go back to him as an example, he didn't want his dancers to be dating, but he dated many, many of his dancers. He

slept with them, had romantic relationships with them. He married many of them and he was their boss. And he was often decades and decades older than them. And I talked to one dancer who was trying to come back to the company after being away, was trying to get her job back and in that office when they were discussing her job prospects at the company, he leaned over and kissed her. And the thing about ballet is it's such a romantic pursuit and it is an art form that it's very easy to not feel like it's a normal workplace. And like you're just a bunch of artists creating something together. It's a calling, it's a vocation, but this is also a man who has complete power over

whether you're going to be allowed to pursue that calling and he's pursuing you romantically. There have been a number of allegations against people who are in powerful positions in the ballet world taking advantage of that. Another thing that I can't help but notice is culty, maybe not even in a bad way, just in a neutral way about ballet is like the sheer ritual that takes place, like breaking in your pointe shoes and lacing them up a certain way. Can you recall any rituals that made you feel special and really furthered that trauma bond with the art form? Well, I think ritual is definitely built into ballet. I mean, when you're in a ballet company, you have company class every morning. And again, I don't see this as like a negative thing necessarily,

in that it can be very centering for dancers. Like every night you're performing and maybe things go badly, maybe things go well. But no matter how low or how high you are in the company, you're going to show up in the morning for company class, recenter, and you're going to start with these very basic exercises that you've been doing since you were eight years old or younger. It can be reminding you like you're just one of many here. It can be helpful to like go back to the basics. It can be really spiritual for people. It can create a sense of the company, but it also like reaffirms your devotion to the art form and your commitment to it that like you will not miss a day. Like you're going to go and by the way, usually in companies

that class is optional. And so what you're saying about choice and how you choose to go, but also like it's a choice, but it's an expectation. The illusion of choice, right. But in terms of pointe shoes, like you mentioned, everyone breaks in their pointe shoes their own way. And that's something that kids get very entranced by and adults too, that like everyone breaks in their pointe shoes in their own way so that it can mold to their foot in the way that they need. And that in and of itself isn't like, oh, I think a weird ritual, but what it does do is it takes a lot of time. And this is something that cults do is like they take up all of your time. And ballet,

you have company class, let's say at 10 a.m., you're rehearsing all day. Then in the evening, you have a performance, you get home very late at night. And by the way, sometime after that, you have to have time to sew and break in a new pair of pointe shoes like every day. You're just constantly, constantly sewing as a professional ballerina, your own pointe shoes. So it's yet another way in which you just don't have time

for anything else. Right, so how do you get the fuck out of ballet? How do you exit gracefully? Is that possible? Like, because what I'm hearing is like you either get a horrible injury to your mind or your body or both. That disqualifies you. Or you somehow are in the like point zero zero zero zero one percent who make it all the way and all the way is what, 35? Then what are you supposed

to do? What do you do? It's so hard because in a way, everyone is forced to leave at some point. That's the weird thing about this cult. This maybe cult. Some people will become ballet teachers, some will become choreographers or involved in the industry in other ways, and other people just leave it entirely. And either way you go, it's a huge shift to go from performing every day to being a teacher or being a choreographer or being a doctor or an accountant or something completely different. Is there like immense depression? Like do people, how are people okay?

Like are there resources to help ballet dancers recover after they leave? Certainly not enough resources. It's really hard. One ballerina I talked to said, it takes 10 years to feel like a normal person after you leave. Literally 10 years. I think it can take a long time to even unpack what it is that has affected you about ballet. And I think some of what can affect you is realizing that you didn't have a normal childhood and you didn't have certain psychosocial development that other kids get to have.

Totally, the psychosocial development. I mean, like being so far from your family, your friends you've known since you were a baby, like that's objectively not good for you. But we excuse it. We as audience members too. Like we uplift it because we want ballet dancers or we the rich people who can go to the ballet. Yeah. And we want this story of like the obsessed child who like goes all in. And the weird

thing about ballet is two things that seem to be opposite happen at the same time. One is that you're expected to become adult at a very young age and you're treated like an adult artist at a very young age, which is problematic. And the other thing that happens is even once you're an adult, you're treated like a child. So when you're in the company, you're kind of like the child and the person in the front of the room has control over your life, can tell you what to do, can control you to an abnormal degree. Lots of times members of the corps de ballet are called kids and you don't develop certain skills,

even just like regular logistical skills of surviving in the world. And then you leave the company and you're like, I don't know how to function. And it can be very discombobulating because like one person I talked to, she was in New York City Ballet. She's like, I was't know how to function. And it can be very discombobulating because like one person I talked to, she was in New York City Ballet. She was like, I was part of one of the most elite

artistic institutions in the entire world. I felt like I knew what was up. I've lived in New York forever. It's not like I'm totally sheltered in the middle of nowhere with no concept of reality. I've toured the world for my art, but I felt like I was coming out of a bunker because I didn't realize what I hadn't learned.

INSANE. Okay, so I want to go back to talking about sort of like the logistics of the industry. Who gets to be in this cult? And like, what does being in the cult even look like? So let's say you come up through prestigious ballet schools as a kid, how do you ascend the hierarchy? Like what does it even look like? How many prestigious companies even are there?

Who, how many companies are there? I actually don't know the answer to that question, but there are a handful of like those Uber elite companies. Which are like the New York City Ballet. New York City Ballet, American Ballet Theater, that type of company. There are these select, very elite companies. And I think the cultural norms of those companies kind of get passed

down to schools around the country. And like you said, you took ballet for a short time as a kid. So many people take ballet, so many people, and they're just everywhere you go, there's a ballet school. And it's kind of like that culture is like Trickling down and affecting kids and how they learn and how they see themselves Yeah, like for some reason everybody just cosplays cult leader in ballet school like the teachers You know, it's like they could just be nice but I guess the technique of the art form is so fucking rigid and But I guess the technique of the art form is so fucking rigid. And the power dynamics have been this way for so long that most people are just like,

you know what, I'm going to put on my best ballerina cult leader impression and like knock these kids around a little. It's wild how easy it is, I think, for teachers to fill that role and like pass on the somewhat traumatic norms that they grew up with. how easy it is, I think, for teachers to fill that role and pass on the somewhat traumatic norms that they grew up with. Often they try to improve them, but still it's hard to get rid of everything because a lot of ballet culture is built into their choreography and built into what you're teaching. I think that can be pretty hard to disentangle. Plus, in terms of who gets to be in this group, it's hugely prioritizing and valuing white dancers and white dancers with certain body

types. So it is very exclusive in problematic ways. And also exclusivity, I think, leads to its appeal as well, because if you are chosen, you feel very special. Oh my God, 100%. Okay. I just have a couple more questions and then I want to play a game. My second to last question is, what is the cultiest story you've ever heard or witnessed? How bad does the cult of ballet really, really get? Oh man. I think just the fact that there can be sometimes no one to turn to if the person who's in charge of your livelihood and your chance to do this thing that you've sacrificed everything for is pursuing you

romantically, sexually, whatever. It's like, what are you supposed to do? And also connected to that cultiness is there's a chance that that person is someone you've known since childhood. And it's very rare in general experience that your teacher when you're a kid is someone who will have perpetual control over your career for the rest of your life. If my middle school teacher was going to be my boss 20 years later and be able to tell me... That's a very scary situation to be in and it makes the stakes very high all the time. Oh my God. My sixth grade's freaking math teacher, thank God she doesn't have any authority

over me now. That lady. Yeah. And you need to be able to mess up and not have it affect your career forever and be able to say no to something and not feel like it's going to ruin your career and feel like you have nowhere to go. So that to me is not a good situation. Oh, freaky.

Yeah. You can't say something at the age of 10 that won't haunt you for the rest of your life. It really feels like that sometimes. And there are all of these like cultural norms around ballet that like I forget even exist, like just the fact that you're never supposed to sit down during a ballet class, that's such a norm, but it's like you have to learn these things

that are expected of you. And if you do them, it can really affect how people view you. Totally. Okay, do you have any advice for people who like, wanna put their kids in ballet, but don't want them to be consumed by like a full blown cult? It's so hard. I really struggle with this because I love ballet.

And also I don't think there's any way to do it completely safely. It's sort of like, if you don't think there is any way to do it completely safely. It's sort of like if you don't want your kid to have any chance of getting CTE, but they really want to play football, what do you do? And I don't know. I mean, I think being aware as you can about some of these pitfalls will help you keep an eye out for them, making sure that your kid has a teacher who is aware of these issues in ballet culture and is working against them. And a lot of teachers are working really hard against them.

And so that's very promising. But I'm also not a parent, but I don't know how to do it completely safely and also to try to prevent like body image stuff or maybe trying to provide role models for them who are vocal about this. I went to a local production of The Nutcracker and interviewed kids. I talked to this one dancer and she was like, I've always been the biggest person in the room. She's really struggled with her body image. Then she came across this other plus-size ballet dancer on TikTok and it completely liberated her. This is a teenager I was interviewing and she was beaming with excitement about how

liberated she felt that she can dance at any size and be incredible. And that made me very hopeful. Yeah, yeah. Representation seriously matters. It makes people feel less alone. It makes people less susceptible to the trauma and abuse of a cult, especially one as legacy as the cult of ballet. Okay so now we're going to play a little game.

It's called On Point or Not On Point. And I basically had a bunch of listeners submit their most unfiltered assumptions about the cult of ballet. And I'm gonna read a few of them to you and you're gonna determine whether the assumption is on point or not on point. Love it. Okay.

I told people to like do their worst cause it was anonymous. So this person said that their cult of ballet assumption was teachers are extremely manipulative to parents and dancers. On point or not on point? Sometimes on point. It depends on the teacher, but that definitely can happen. All right. I would say pretty much overall on point. Next one, the competition. It's always super competitive to get one role and they'll sabotage in order to do that.

Ooh, again, can be on point. Now I think some dancers would fight back because also dancers really bond and support each other. So again, it like depends on the company you're in, it depends on the culture you're in, but absolutely there are cases of that being on point. Yeah, how could it not when the culture is set up as it is being so exclusive?

It's like, you'll do whatever it takes. Black Swan style. Okay. I feel like I mean, I already know the answer to this based on what you explained so far, but on point or not on point, the pain they have to endure for the good of the group. On point. On point. Yeah.

That self sacrifice. So much pain. Holy shit. On point or not on point. On point. Yeah. That self-sacrifice. So much pain. Holy shit. On point or not on point? Even if you just do it for a short while, your feet are permanently messed up. Not on point. I think you can do it for a short while and not permanently mess up your feet. I think so. As I say that, there have been some, like I've been learning more about the science of how our like ligaments develop and stuff. And I don't know. I mean, like I think actually over flexibility and like pushing turnout can be damaging, but I'd say my feet seem pretty okay.

And I did do a lot of dancing. So we did do a season one episode of the show on the cult of feet. And I feel like weirdly, this is a companion episode to that one. Foot fetishes. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm sure there's a whole subculture to the cult of feet dedicated to ballet dancers, toes and feet in particular. Oh my gosh, you're probably right. Has to be. Love a subculture. Wow. That's a niche one. Okay. On point or not on point, this person says from personal experience, they encourage their

children to join the cult too. Sometimes not on point in that also on like, again, it depends on the person. Like absolutely, there's this like lineage type pressure for some dancers, but I've also talked to dancers who do not want their kids dancing. And I just the other day talked to someone whose daughter was dancing and the mother had been a professional ballerina and she eventually pulled her daughter out because she was like too good at it. And she was just like, no, I'm not letting this happen to my child. So it goes both ways. How flattering though. It's like, mommy says I can't dance because I'm too talented. Okay,

next one on point or not on point abuse is part of the game and you have to endure it in order to make it. I'd say unfortunately on point. I mean. Yeah. Emotional abuse at the very least. Yeah. On point or not on point, only very controlled emotionally suppressed humans participate. Thanks center stage. Possibly. That line that Maureen says where she's just like, I'm the best goddamn dancer in the entire American ballet company.

And who the hell are you? Nobody. I was like eight years old saying that to my parents. I think some extent on point because you have to learn to suppress certain emotions to persist. That sounds like it's making a bunch of little cult leaders. You have to be able to access your full range of emotions or you end up like a little tyrant. Because you have to be able to go on stage after like a nightmare day and smile and dance and if that's not suppressing some emotion, I don't know what is.

Okay. On point or not on point that ballerinas can't really have a life or relationships outside of ballet. On point, it's pretty all-consuming. Yeah. On point or not on point, this one is similar to a previous one, but it's incredibly cut throat as a former dancer, never pro. Frenemies were the norm. Unfortunately, on point. Not the rule, but definitely frenemies in there. Yeah. Oh God. And that probably gives you trust issues.

You're like, who's trying to throw me under the bus? I would imagine. I think that could be tough. Okay. On point or not on point. A lot of men in ballet leadership are sex predators. On point. On point or not on point.

It's expensive as fuck. This is another thing I want to talk about, like the barrier to entry, right? Like all the shit you have to buy. Extremely on point. It's so expensive. I remember my mom losing her mind whenever we would go to the little dance supply store in my town being like, you're nine years old and I'm spending how much money on the most uncomfortable shoe ever made for you? Absolutely.

Fuck. Okay. Two more. On point or not on point? Like racehorses, any injury or bodily imperfection can be career ending. On point. Absolutely. You like sprain your ankle, they shoot you right there on the rehearsal floor. Okay, maybe not quite like race horses in that sense. Okay, and the last one, the one that was submitted literally 500 times, on point or not on point, the culture of eating disorders, body image issues. You got to be skinny. You can't be anything other than starving. On point, 100%.

And even though people are fighting against it, it is so pervasive. How does your body even do that if you're hungry? I still can't comprehend it. I don't know how it works, but certainly leads to injuries. You know, if you're not eating and you're dancing at that level, easily can lead to more injuries. Ugh, hunger is bad.

It's so bad. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now we have arrived at the ultimate verdict. At the end of every episode of Sounds Like

a Cult. We have to figure out what level of cult the Cult of the Week is. So, Erika, out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out. Which do you think the Cult of Ballet falls into? I think it's Watch Your Back. Okay. I don't know where you land. It was sounding really get the fuck out of you for a while there. I'm probably still too attached to it.

I just, you know, I don't know, man. I might still be a little brainwashed is the problem. Aren't we all? Me too. I mean, every ballet video that exists on YouTube, I've watched it. I've watched it. I am the too. I mean, every ballet video that exists on YouTube, I've watched it. I've watched it. I am the problem.

I don't know. It's really tough. Cause it's like, it's like you said, it's a beautiful art form. There are parts of it that are really nurturing and fulfilling. And I think the world without ballet would be like a little bit less beautiful,

but would the good outweigh the bad? I don't know. It's like a little bit borderline watch your back at the big hour. Yeah, honestly, maybe it is get the fuck out. I think if you're gonna do it, like maybe you're just gonna have to really prioritize health and self care.

And I'd say go for the company that's healthier and like less prestigious and like go that route. Such good advice for any cult like industry healthier and less prestigious and go that route. Such good advice for any cult-like industry. Now that you're saying that, I think it's just a heavy watch your back. Yeah, very heavy. Thank you so, so much for joining me for this much anticipated, highly requested, I might add, episode of Sounds Like a Cult. If folks want to keep up with you and the work that you're doing, where can they find you?

Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for having me. You should definitely go subscribe to The Turning on any podcast app, The Turning Room of Mirrors. And my podcast company is Rococo Punch on Instagram at Rococo Punch. And I'm on Twitter at EJ Lance. And yeah, that's it. Amazing. Well, that's our show.

Thanks so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay's it. Amazing. Well, that's our show. Thanks so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week, but in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. Sounds Like a Cult is hosted and produced by Amanda Montell and edited by Jordan Moore of the PodCabin. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. This episode was made with production help from Katie Epperson. Our intern is Reese Oliver. Thank you as well to our partner All Things Comedy. And if you like the show, please feel free to check out my books, Word Slut, A Feminist Guide to Taking

Back the English Language, Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, and the forthcoming, The Age of Magical Overinking, notes on modern irrationality. If you're a fan of Sounds Like a Cult, I would really appreciate it if you leave a rating and review on Amazon or Apple podcasts. Frieda Fertility aims to be couples go-to brand for making trying a little less, well, trying. Their effective and science-backed products aid in conception, whether you've just started or have been at it for several months. Here's the thing, nobody teaches us how to get pregnant, so when it comes time to conceive,

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