Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Beyoncé

Episode Date: October 14, 2025

Bow down, because we're about to cover one of the most powerful, mysterious, and meticulously choreographed cults in modern pop culture: The Cult of Beyoncé. This week, Chelsea is joined by journalist and cultural critic Kathleen Newman Bremang (@kathleennb), to help break down how the Beyhive became less of a fandom and more of a faith. From the Church of Lemonade to the gospel of Renaissance, Beyoncé has crafted not just a career but a belief system, complete with rituals, relics, and sermons that make you cry in formation. But how did one woman become both artist and ideology? And when does admiration turn into devotion? Whether you’re a casual listener or a card carrying member of the Hive, this episode unpacks the genius, the grandeur, and the glorious groupthink of pop’s most divine following. 👑🐝 Subscribe to Sounds Like A Cult on Youtube!Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod, @amanda_montell, @reesaronii, @chelseaxcharles. Thank you to our sponsors! Earn points on rent and around your neighborhood, wherever you call home, by going to https://joinbilt.com/culty London! Come see Sounds Like A Cult LIVE!! November 24th at Bush Hall. Get tickets before they're gone!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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on a dragon. It's all there and your first great love story is free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of sounds like a cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. I understand the correlation. Like, I understand when we're talking about cults, right? I call Christianity a cult. I do think that there is a correlation between religion and some of the ways in which we celebrity worship.

And the Illuminati, I mean, yeah, we can't talk about the cult of Beyonce without talking about all those conspiracy theories and this idea that her and Jay and all of the, quote, unquote, black elite are ruling the world somehow through the Illuminati. This is Sounds Like a Colts, a show about the modern-day cults we all follow. I'm your host, Chelsea Charles, an unscripted. TV producer and a lifelong student of pop culture sociology and one third of the dynamic trio at Sounds Like a Colt. On today's episode, it'll just be me and our guests. Every week on the show, we discuss a different zeitgeisty group that puts the cult in culture from Lou Lemon to Harry Potter

to try to answer the big question, this group sounds like a cult, but is it really? And if so, which of our cult categories does it fall into? Is it a live your life, a watcherback, or a get the fuck out? After all, cultish influence is sneaky these days, and it doesn't always look the same. Some modern-day cults seem super fringy and ritualistic, but are actually relatively harmless, like horse girls or jeep owners. Jeep owners. The cultiness doesn't necessarily mean they're super destructive, but then you've got modern cult leaders whose influence is so omnipresent that we often don't even stop to scrutinize the chokehold it has on us. That is what the show is all about, analyzing and even

poking a little fun at the ways cultishness shows up in places so prominent you might not even perceive them as cults. Like an empire built on flawless, visuals, cryptic drops, and the illusion of intimacy, with just enough obsession to make you question your taste, your time, and your loyalty. It's time we step into the cults of Beyonce. The hive-minded, mean-fueled world-stopping phenomenon where ordinary people transform into devoted beehive soldiers, decoding Instagram posts, streaming albums on loop, and defending their queen, my queen, with the first. ferocity of a royal guard, whether you're a casual listener, a deep-cut scholar, or just here

for the Renaissance vibes, welcome to the Colt of B. Okay, Coltie, so before we jump into it, obviously, you know, we have to give a little background to the world of Beyonce Giselle Knows Carter. Born on September 4th, 1981 in Houston, Texas to Tina Knowles, a fashion designer and hairstylist and Matthew Knowles, a X-Rox sales manager who would later become her manager. Raised in a middle class, tight-knit family in Houston's third ward, Beyonce grew up surrounded by music, faith, and ambition. She showed a natural talent for performing as a child, singing in church choirs and competing in local talent shows where her powerful message in stage presence

made her stand out even at seven years old. Her parents recognized her gift early. Matthew took a hands-on role in developing her career, while Tina supported her with costuming and creative direction, a partnership that would become a blueprint for the Knowles Family Brands. By the early 1990s, Beyonce was performing with a girl group called Girls' Time, a six-member R&B act managed by Matthew. They famously appeared on Star Search in 1993 and lost,

but the experience became a formative moment in Beyonce's story of resilience. Over the next few years, girls' time transformed, members shifted, the sound sharpened, and the group was eventually renamed Destiny's Child. After years of talent showcases and local gigs, they landed a deal with Columbia Records in 1997. Destiny's Child exploded onto the late 1990s,

R&B scene with hits like, no, no, no, and later, bills, bills, bills. Jesus, they love repetition. Say my name and Survivor. Their polished harmonies, fierce choreography, and matching costumes made by Tina, turned them into a defining girl group of the era. Even within a group, Beyonce emerged as a clear, front woman, and by the early 2000s, she launched her solo career with Dangerously in Love,

officially beginning the empire we know today. The Beehive isn't just a fan base. It's a full-blown faith-based system. Beyonce is the flawless, untouchable deity. Every move is dissected like scripture. Her concerts are sacred rights, and her surprise album drops trigger global. global awakenings. Descent is heresy. Question her and you risk online excommunication. There are thought terminating cliches like she's mother and you just don't get it.

Ritualistic devotion like Renaissance tour outfits planned months in advance and even sacrificial tithing like $700 seats in the nosebleeds just to breathe the same air. Hashtag Ben Lair done that. The beehive doesn't just stand. They worship. And now we've got to get into formation. Helping us breaking it all down is the boundary pushing. Kathleen Newman Bramang, writer, editor, and cultural critic, whose work unapologetically spotlights black women, pop culture, and representation.

She's a senior content director at Refinery 29's. unbothered, a contributing voice across Canadian media, and a sharp commentator on the ways identity and media collide. Kathleen brings the kind of insight, wit, and cultural fluency that makes her the perfect guide for today's cult analysis. Kathleen, welcome to Sounds Like a Colt. Hey, thank you for having me and for that intro. Okay. So first of all, I have to say, I found you online via TikTok from just a very short clip that I saw breaking down how Beyonce originally had like such a huge voice in interviews.

And then slowly she started to kind of like back away from the spotlight that kind of added in mystique. And I was just obsessed, just how much knowledge you had around Beyonce and all the things. So I just want to know, to kick this off, what is your relationship to Beyonce specifically? Ooh, I mean, because I'm a millennial, I feel like I've been there from the beginning. You know, I'm not new to this. I'm true to this. I'm like, OG Beehive member because I remember watching, it was much music. I'm Canadian. So it was much music for me, MTV for y'all. I remember watching the no, no, no

music video the first time it dropped with Wyclef Jean. From the very beginning, I was there. And so my relationship with Beyonce feels a little bit like my relationship with myself, if that doesn't sound too cultish, because I really grew up with her, I feel like. She was the soundtrack to my most formative years. I think in the ways in which I was able to grow. row in my confidence, Beyonce was there. In there, in pop culture, when I wasn't able to see myself or I was struggling to find images to connect with, Beyonce was there. And so my relationship with Beyonce is, it's hard. And I think as a cultural critic, I really have to exercise separating my love and nostalgia for this figure who has been there my whole life, it feels

like. And me doing my job, which is looking at her as a cultural icon and a public figure and someone who does at times deserve critique. I have to separate the two because if I didn't, I would just be one of those delusional beehive stands who just is like, she can do no wrong. I love her forever. That's my girl B. You know? And she is that on some level. Because again, I grew up with her and I love her music so much. And some of my favorite memories of my life are seeing Beyonce live with my favorite people in my life. I saw the Destiny's Child Farewell Tour with my big brother, one of the greatest nights ever that I can remember.

I have seen her live. I think every time I have been in the city that she's performing live in and at times I have traveled for the past like 20 years, I saw her for the first time. I remember in Toronto there was this radio festival, the Kiss 92, Wham Bam, Thank You Jam, is what it was called. And I saw Destiny's Child in 2001, 2002 maybe, live at Wonderland, which is like our six flags. And since then, I have seen her live and I have been worshiping at the altar of Beyonce in my personal life. But I think in my professional life, I have also had to critique her.

I've had to look at her as a cultural icon for all of those years. And so my relationship to her has definitely changed over the years. But I think that her relationship in the cultural landscape has changed. And that has been really fascinating to watch. Absolutely. And you bring up a great point because obviously in preparation for this episode, I did a lot of research about someone who I can agree. I have a very similar story with Beyonce as you do. I grew up with her as well. And the original iteration of this outline for this episode, I had to go back and check myself because there was some like, I don't know, I guess real like indoctrination that I just, I just, you know, you just cannot escape.

Like, when you're such a huge fan of this person, sometimes it feels like she can be above critique. And if I call myself a person that is open, because I get on this podcast and I critique so many other cults and cult like things, I can't get up here. and be biased about a cult that I am very a part of. Absolutely. So I had to go back and do some deeper digging because, yes, to your point, like just so much of my identity I feel like was shaped by being here and alive through.

And like how fortunate are we, but also for better and for worse. I feel very fortunate to live in the time of Beyonce, to have grown up in the time of Beyonce and been there for all the different eras to have been there through Destiny's Child. Like I feel very fortunate, but also, yeah, for better and for worse in that Beyonce, I think, has molded a very specific image of blackness, of black womanhood, of body image, of beauty ideals throughout our lives that I don't think is always positive necessarily. I don't think growing up looking at Beyonce's hair and trying to mimic her hair or have. have my hair be held to that standard and, oh, I don't look like Beyonce enough, you know?

Like, I don't know if that was a positive thing to have me growing up trying to emulate her. So in some ways, it's like I feel very fortunate to live in the time of Beyonce because the excellence that she has provided for us. But also at the same time, the cult of Beyonce is the cult of black excellence and thinking that we can excellent our way out of certain systems or certain ways in which pop culture hurts and shapes us negatively. And I don't think that that has been positive for me as a person who had Beyonce there throughout my formative years. What do you think is the cultiest thing about the cult of Beyonce? I mean, it's got to be the blind devotion to her, you know, right? And the fervor at which her fans consume everything, Beyonce.

And I also think the money spent to uphold your place in the fandom, like, I think that that is very culty. I'm wearing the most expensive Beyonce merch I own, which is a t-shirt from the Renaissance tour, which was a collaboration with Belmeh, and it was $450. Ooh. Okay. Girl, you're in a cult. Like, why am I spending that was money on a T-shirt? I genuinely used to have a B-fund, like money I would set aside just in case she dropped something or announced a tour so I would, like, have money to go. That is culty.

I also think that, which we alluded to before, but I think the air of mystery surrounding Beyonce is also very cultish. We know a lot about her, but we actually don't know a lot about her. And that's by design. You know, she only lets us see a very curated, very specific version of her and her family. She famously stopped doing traditional media interviews a long time ago. And now when she does, it's usually over email where she can send in a well-crafted response. As an entertainment journalist, I do not accept.

email interviews. I would from Beyonce, but from everyone else I don't because we don't know if a publicist is writing that. I don't know how much Yvette and Beyonce are sitting there crafting these responses together. Or it's through documentaries that she produces and directs herself. So we're seeing images and sound bites of Beyonce molded by Beyonce. And it makes it really easy, I think, to project whatever we want onto her, but really easy for her to have control over what we're able to project. It's Beyonce propaganda, to be honest. And I think that when you take a step, back, it's really culty that the leader of this cult, and I would say that Beyonce herself would not call it a cult. I think that she's less engaging with the cult-ness of her fan base than, say, a Taylor Swift, right, who I think very much feeds the flames with Easter eggs and all that, like, and take meaning from everything I do and all that stuff. Beyonce doesn't engage as much, but I do think her being this, like, diety, entity. who doesn't give us that much and who is kind of just this like

mysterious, excellent entity at the top of this pyramid does feel very cultish for sure. Mmm. Damn. Hello, you guys, it's Heather McDonald and I have a juicy scoop for you on Audible. I've been loving their romance collection. They are a leading creator and provider

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I don't know if I can pinpoint a catalyst for a. shift, but I do think it's just growing up. I think I used to look at Beyonce from a representation standpoint and see her as someone I wanted to emulate, someone I wanted to be like, you know, this is a black woman at the top of the pop game. And when she was there, there wasn't really anymore. You know, there's that famous New York Times headline now where it was when Beyonce first went solo, they said, she's no Ashanti. Which, oh my God. Laffable now. No disrespect to Ashanti. disrespect to Ashanti. But it's just so funny now. But really, genuinely, like, it was Beyonce and Ashanti at the beginning. And then she just took off into her own stratosphere and to see her being

at the top of the charts at the top of every conversation. It was beautiful and inspiring. And I think it was something that I was like hinged some of my confidence on. Like, you know, Beyonce is there being confident and sexy and a black woman. So I can be a confident sexy black woman. And they think that as I have grown up a bit, I look at Beyonce less now as someone to validate my existence or to inspire my confidence and more as someone who is so exceptional at what she does that that in and of itself is inspiring. And Beyonce being her best sparks something in you to want to be your best. You know, so I don't necessarily see myself in her anymore, but I am so in awe of the work ethic. I think, again, also is like a student of pop culture and of music. I'm really in awe of her being a student

and how much she works and studies and teaches. I think actually the most powerful thing about Beyonce is that she is a teacher and that she educates through her music. And we've especially seen that through Cowboy Carter and Renaissance. Like I think that is really the most powerful thing about Beyonce. And so I think I've shifted my view of her being somebody who needs to represent us all and like speak for us all because she doesn't. And more as somebody who like, okay, she is who she is.

is. And I'm not going to project as much onto her. You spoke a little bit about how we receive her now through like perfectly curated content and sometimes like interviews via email. She is labeled publicly as a feminist. And I'm putting feminists in quotations. But some critics say that her version is too branded and too curated. So in your opinion, from your lens, is her feminism empowering or is it performative? I think it's both. And I think that's okay. You know, Beyonce is a performance and everything she does. Everything is branded. Everything is curated. That doesn't mean it can't be empowering. You know, I remember the first time I heard formation and watched Lemonade, the visual album. And it felt radical in a sense. You know, it felt important and empowering that Beyonce was claiming this black feminist stance. When before that, she was this crossover artist that, you know, I think white people really could claim to and be like, Oh, you know, she's not that. Don't worry.

She's Beyonce. She's very, quote, unquote, palatable. And with lemonade and with formation and with those visuals that accompanied that, she was very much like, no, look at me. And I am black and I am black in a way that I'm going to at least aesthetically show you a black feminist motif of who I am. And I think that that was empowering for me. And it was, you know, she was claiming this.

feminist, black feminist stance. And even if it was black feminism light, I would say, and it was mostly consistent of her quoting other black feminists, it did feel important at the time. And I do think we've maybe evolved since then. And I think that we understand a bit more looking back. I think that it was a little bit more surface level than like radical black feminists would have wanted. At the same time when you looked at her position in pop culture and you looked at what other artists were doing at that time for Beyonce to take those stances to evoke the imagery of the Black Panthers to quote Nina Simone later in the homecoming concert film. That was really powerful and radical at the time and different than what other people were doing.

And Beyonce didn't have to do that. So I'm going to give her that. At the same time, when you do quote a Nina Simone, who one of her most famous quotes is an artist's duty as far as I'm concerned, is to reflect the times. And then you continue to be a Beyonce who has not reflected the times in certain aspects, who chooses not to speak on certain things that, you know, a lot of her fans or people wouldn't expect her to speak on. I think that that's when you kind of have to say, yeah, she's going to do it in the way

she's going to do it in, which is performative, which is a performance. And you have to be able to call it out. I think you have to be able to critique it because if she is going to, put out this aesthetic of black power activism, it's okay to say Beyonce wants to appear to be a black feminist, radical activist at times, but also props up systems that are antithetical to that messaging. It actually reminds me of once I was at an appointment and the provider was like an older white woman. And somehow the subject of Beyonce came up. She was somewhere in the ether. It was something monumental. I can't really remember.

what it was. But she asked me if I was a Beyonce fan and I was like, yes, you know, short. And she said, I used to like Beyonce. I used to really enjoy her music. And then she became so militant. And her messaging just became so political. And I can't bear to listen to her anymore. And to me, still to this day, I will never forget this. This happened maybe six years ago. But for me, I get chills even retelling that story because it infuriated me that, I don't know, it's just this odd expectation of an artist to be palatable and to not have any sense of responsibility when it comes to like anything that's happening in the world around

them. And then once they do decide, I want to be intentional about what my messaging is, then they get the opposite side. Naysayers like, I can't support. I can't bear. This lady said I cannot bear to listen. I think that's so interesting to put it in context because when you're having an intra-community conversation about Beyonce, like when black folks are having a conversation about Beyonce, I do think we're having the conversation about, you know, is she going far enough? Is she speaking up for us enough? Is she being radical enough? Right? Like, we are having those conversations. And I think when you look at, again, a post-lemonade Beyonce from outside of our community, people see her as this like radical, especially that Super Bowl performance, which she was just a guest. It was Cole played Super Bowl halftime show, which is hilarious to remember that it was actually Cole plays Super Bowl halftime performance. Bruno Mars was also a guest. And Beyonce comes out and does formation and she does it dressed essentially as a Black Panther. And it was actually, also in the middle of Black Lives Matter movement.

And in the formation video, she's standing on a cop car and then, you know, the cop car drowns and she kind of goes down in the water with it. And it's just like this very powerful imagery about Black Lives Matter and about police brutality. And Beyonce was making those statements very intentionally. And I think it's so interesting to look outside of our community and see how people see her. And after those moments where she very intentionally, said, I am black and you're not going to be able to get away from that. Like, I am a black woman from the South in this country. See me. That was very powerful. And it is still, to this day,

makes people so upset at her and mad at her and have her be this symbol of militants, which is so interesting that a billionaire, it can be a symbol of militants, right? It's so interesting when you take the conversation into different communities. Because again, in an intra-community conversation about Beyonce and Jay-Z and that family and that brand, I think is very different than when you take it out and you have white folks talking about her. And I think that actually, to me, to answer your question about her feminism, when you do take it out of our community, I say, yeah, it can be empowered. Because it is empowering for me to hear that story and have someone be like, I can't stand her. She's too militant. I'm like, yes, she is. I want to be

like, yeah. Yes, she is. Exactly. But at the same time, I do think, you know, we have to hold her to the standard that she has held herself. If she's going to say, I'm a feminist, I'm a radical, I'm going to bring in conversations that are bigger than me, then, okay, let's go. Okay. So that was the perfect segue into lemonade. So for our listeners, we need to talk about lemonade. Lemonade dropped on April 23rd, 2016.

A day I will never, ever forget. Never. Never forget it. Took the world by storm, not just an album, but as a cultural reckoning. In one hour of music and visuals, Beyonce braided together, personal betrayal, generational trauma, Southern Gothic aesthetics, African diasporic spirituality, and radical black womanhood. It was part confessional, part manifesto, and it marked the moment she stepped fully into the role of cultural and political thought leader. Beyonce's usage of African traditional religious symbolism became a huge topic online. Her choice to use Oshun imagery in Lemonade and the broader IFA symbolism in Black is king

was visually powerful, but also sparked debate where African spirituality is either exotified or demonized. So in your opinion, why do you think, I don't even want to just say black women, but black artists in general embracing Orisha gets read as dangerous or demonic? This is such a big conversation. I would say it's about the cult of Christianity. I think that those spiritual practices that you just mentioned predate Christianity in so many African cultures.

And I think that there's this idea if you're not strictly adhering to a very westernized view of religion, it's demonic. It's satanic. And that's just colonization at work. You know, that's just believing the lies they sold us about ourselves, that our natural indigenous spirituality and religions are savage or satanic. Like, that's truly just, to me, very much against everything that Beyonce, if you call her a black feminist radical, is against, you know?

And I think that when you look at that spiritual imagery, especially in black, is king and really going through different African spiritual practices and showing that, I think that she is trying to be like, yes, I'm a black American. And yes, I'm going to reclaim my blackness in a way that is very intentional and strong and true and pure. But also, none of this happens without our African roots. And she used, especially in Black as King, various different African cultures like Ghanaian, Nigerian, she's Yoruba, spiritual. practices that she's talking about. But I think in pulling from all those different things, which she got some criticism for pulling from different things, but I think she's trying to show

the ways in which we are connected through that spirituality. And that, again, within our communities, we need to be having that conversation more instead of looking to the spiritual practices that were imposed upon us through slavery and through colonization and being like, that's the standard. Oh, she's being demonic because she's actually going back through our root. as opposed to adhering to these things that we're told to us, that that is the standard and that is pure and good and right. I think there's a lot to unpack there, but I think that I would say in this sense, Beyonce is ahead of the curve and doing something really interesting. And it goes back to her being a teacher. And it goes back to her trying to educate us on histories that a lot of people clearly don't know a lot about.

Anyone who's calling any of that demonic or satanic doesn't know our own history. Couldn't have said it better. I also think I take large issue with this idea that anybody who is successful and black, it's always this idea that they had to do some kind of weird, like, strange demonic witchcraft in order to reach this level of success. And I think people can flate like African traditional religion with a, Illuminati for some reason because I think a lot of people just don't have enough knowledge to speak on a lot of the things that they speak on. And it's so funny because I sometimes get the videos

from like, even my older aunties sending me videos like, look at this. There's this viral, there's this viral sermon where this pastor is talking about Beyonce's hive and how like it means you're part of this person's coven. And I'm like, guys, guys. But also correct. No, there are times when I jokingly called Beyonce, my Lord and Savior, I say thank Beyonce instead of thank God. You know, like I genuinely sometimes make that comparison because there are times when hearing Two Hands to Heaven on a Sunday during the Cowboy Carter tour felt very spiritual to me as someone who grew up in the church. And so I understand the correlation. Like I understand when we're talking about cults, right? I call Christianity a cult.

I do think that there is a correlation between religion and some of the ways in which we celebrity worship, right? We call it celebrity worship. There is a reason for that. So I understand on some level making that comparison, but it is so interesting, especially when you talk about churches, you talk about aunties who are like very much like put Beyonce as the. Andes. a symbol for everything that's bad in the world. And the Illuminati, I mean, yeah, we can't talk about the cult of Beyonce without talking about all those conspiracy theories and this idea that her and J. and all of the quote, quote, quote, black elite are ruling the world somehow through

the Illuminati. I don't even really understand the conspiracies, to be honest. I'm like, sorry, what's happening? But yeah, I think it makes sense to make that comparison between the beehive and following a religion. And it's something that I do jokingly all the time. But I also think that it is maybe taking something too seriously that we don't need to. On some level, it's just this person brings me a lot of joy and that's okay.

And that's something I would say to the detractors of Beyonce, the people who look at her negatively. And I would also say that to her, like, extreme stance. I would also say, like, I think you're maybe taking this a little bit too seriously. Like, your identity doesn't have to be tied to Beyonce, Giselle Knowles. Carter, as much as we love her down. Because I like Beyonce and she is my number one played artist, she is the goat in my opinion. I love her forever. If someone says something bad about Beyonce, they are not saying something bad about me. And I think that is what's happening is I think Stan's think if you critique Beyonce, you are critiquing me because she is me. And because now we brand,

all of us are brands, we brand ourselves, what we put out on the internet is our likes, our hobbies, our pictures, or whatever. So that is me on my social media page. And if half of me are pictures of Beyonce or me going to Cowboy Carter or me wearing her merch. And so then you critique her, you're critiquing me. And I think that's where it becomes culty because as much as I love Beyonce, as much as I'm wearing a $450 t-shirt right now, I know I can separate that she is not me and I am not her. And also, she doesn't need you to be treating her critiques like they're your critiques.

and you go in a bat for her in the comments and you fighting for Beyonce like that. Like, she's okay. I promise you. She's all right. She doesn't need you to be doing all. I think that message was for me specifically. Here's the thing. I don't do the most in the comments.

But to your point, I do take it like a personal attack when I'm in person and I'm having a spirited debate about Beyonce. Well, I will say it depends what the critique is because I have also been there. And I think it's if someone's saying, oh, Beyonce's not that great of a performer or she's not that great of an artist or she's not a musical genius, that's a dog whistle, right? Like you're like, just say you hate black women. Okay, okay. So it depends what the critique is. If the critique is, Beyonce says that she's pro-black and yet she's supporting a candidate

who isn't going to actually help us or she's not speaking up when she should be or like, where was she on this day when this happened? She's not talking about the genocide. She's not talking about what's happening in Sudan. Like those critiques, we can say, hey, let's unpack that. Let's unpack those critiques. If you're trying to come for her artistic integrity or her abilities as a performer, yeah. I mean, maybe I'm going to turn into the girl from Swarm.

No one is above reproach, including Beyonce. But I do think there are certain critiques that she gets that feel just because she's a black woman. And that is a perfect segue to. Cowboy Carter because Cowboy Carter was not just a creative pivot. It was a statement in a genre that has historically excluded black women. First of all, I just want to say I had a special connection to this album specifically. Famously, the listeners know I'm from Louisiana. Generation, generation, I am a Black American Creole woman. And this album was so special to me that I, As soon as I listened, I called my best friend and we were crying.

Like, and I know from outside looking in, that may be just a tinge Colty. I cried the whole time. First listen? Come on. Of course. You have to cry. It was just such a special, special album. How do you read the significance of her stepping into country music at this moment?

Oh, well, it's so interesting when you look at this moment because allegedly, Calais Carter was supposed to come first. Right. And it was supposed to be Cowboy Carter and then Renaissance. And then Beyonce just kind of read the room and it was like, okay, I'm going to put Renaissance first and then Cowboy Carter. So the timing of why now is so interesting that Beyonce is actually very good at like looking at her audience and the cultural landscape and being like, what do people need right now?

And the fact that Calvite Carter came now and came on the heels of another Trump presidency, on the heels of so much just blatant anti-blackness in pop culture. Like, I just complete 180 from 2020. It does feel like it's the perfect time. And that I don't know what kind of mastermind thing Beyonce is on. But we genuinely felt like we needed that right now in this moment. But I also feel like, on the other hand, Cowboy Carter is because Beyonce is just a petty person. And she was like, oh, you say I don't belong.

here. This is, you know, obviously going back to the performance with the Dixie Chicks at the 2016 CMAs when she performed Daddy Lessons, which if you didn't love Daddy Lessons first time around, you don't get to come here and say you love Cowboy Carter. Just say. Get out. Like, real Beyonce fans, no. And so performing Daddy Lessons in 2016, and she was met with this tepid response in studio from the country music world. And then racist backlash from fans watching, you know, there was a trending hashtag boycott CMA. And you going around because of Beyonce and that they spotlighted her. And so Beyonce took that personal, right? She was like, oh, you're going to say, I don't belong here when I am a country girl

through and through. And throughout her career has been called two country. Right. Because of her accent and where she's from and everything. And then she's going to come into that space and have people try to tell her she's not country and truly just because she's a black woman. So I think that that pettiness and that kind of chip on our shoulder is like running through the heart of Cowboy Carter. And I don't think that we should negate that because I think it echoes some of the rage and frustration that black people feel when you look at where the music industry has gone on so many different genres that black people originated, that black people inspired and are the backbone of. and we see it get erased and co-opted. I feel like you can take all of that and culminate it as Beyonce on stage performing this genre that black people own and have people telling you, oh, no, you don't belong.

I'm sorry, I don't belong. And so I think that having that feeling and then having that injected into Cowboy Carter is really, really important. And I think you feel it on every track. And I think it also is what you feel when you are watching the. rights of black folks being taken away in America. You're watching people being openly racist and anti-black and you're seeing those same black folks who are experiencing that say, but we built this. Right, right, right. And I think that that's why the timing of Calle

Carter feels so significant. And I think that, again, it's a lot of projection. Some of it, Beyonce is saying. Some of the conversations about America and the parallels between country music and America are there on the record. She's saying it explicitly. Some of it were projecting on but I think we can project it on to her because of the timing of this album. Three snaps, girl. 20th Century Studios presents a legendary movie of that. Springsteen, deliver me from nowhere. God, no, no, God!

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Working. And the naked gun. That was awesome. Now that's a mountain of entertainment. Paramount Worth. So Beyonce often critiques power structures, racism, misogyny, erasure, but she's also a billionaire brand with tight control of her image. Can anyone this entrenched in capitalism truly critique it?

I think they can. I think there needs to be. a caveat anytime someone that entrenched in capitalism critiques it. We're all participating in capitalism. And so I don't think that because we're participating in it, we can't critique it. I think we're critiquing it because we are forced to participate in it, right? I think there's a caveat when it comes to Beyonce because Beyonce is directly benefiting from and upholding systems of capitalism by being a billionaire. We see some of the endorsements that she does. You know, we see some of the ways in which she continues to build this wealth. And I'm not going to claim that I know

exactly where her money is going and how many charities she uphold. And I'm sure they're giving so much money to some really, really great causes. At the same time, we know that Beyonce and Jay-Z are capitalists. They love money. They talk about it all the time. Yeah. They again, do endorsements with companies that were like, that's shady. But you did that because you got a check, you know. So I think that we have to be able to say that. We have to be able to say, yes, the critique is there. She is critiquing America while at the same time being draped in a flag that if we're talking about symbolisms, we know what the American flag has stood for in the past and what it was made with the intention of. You know, like she is trying to say that, I think, through the music,

but it's also like we can critique it. We have to be able to. We have to be able to say, this is a billionaire who, without this system, wouldn't have all the things that she has. And I think is by making us pay $450 for the T-shirt and thousands of dollars to watch her critique America, she is participating in this capitalist system that she is critiquing. And so we have to be able to then critique that. You can't have one without the other. And I think it comes from a place of love. It comes from, I care.

Like, if I didn't care about Beyonce, I wouldn't be spending an hour talking about her. Right. Right. It comes from a place of care and love and interest in her art and what she's trying to say. But yeah, I think we have to be able to caveat every critique that she makes by do you really want it to change that much? Because if it did, would you have what you have? It reminds me of the Tiffany and co-collab and how she has this collaboration. And then the internet was just like obviously up in arms because she became the first black woman to wear the Tiffany necklace.

Which what does that even mean? Exactly. That means nothing. It means nothing. The first black woman to wear blood diamonds? Why is that even the first black woman? This is why I'm like the cult of Beyonce is also the cult of black excellence. Because why is that even something to aspire to?

Why is that something that even is notable? And as much as I like screamed and was so excited when she finally won album of the year, it's also like why are we aspiring to be a part of these systems that don't care about us at all? The Recording Academy and the Grammy showed over and over and over again that they do not care about you, Beyonce or care about black artists. Tiffany's does not care about black people, clearly. They have actively oppressed them for years. As Beyonce, you don't need Tiffany's. You don't need the Recording Academy.

So I just find it so interesting that it is then still upheld as like this excellent thing and that like she overcame to achieve this excellence as being the first black woman to do this and to do that. When we really boil it down, I'm like, well, why should that be significant to us? Exactly. And it's so interesting because, I mean, like the immediate responses to that, like, I know that was like her PR team, but they released that 100% of the proceeds from the collaboration with Beyonce was going to go to HBCUs. So then everyone was like, oh, it's okay, but I'm like. Yeah.

So she can't be, we can't just critique her. She just can't be wrong. She's wrong. Right. She's wrong. Yeah. And this is the thing. I think we have to be able to say she's wrong sometimes.

Like I do think she's always watching and I think Yvette, her publicist is always watching and is always trying to control the narrative. So when they see negative backlash, they are going to try to course correct. Yes, yes. And I think they do that very well. Yvette is very good at her job. Beyonce is very good at her job. They are very good at the course correction. And I think they're also very good at giving the stands away to define.

her. They're very good at being like, okay, well, there's this argument. So run with it stands. Go like spread our gospel. We're saying it's okay because of this. And they do. They go and they and they spread that gospel and they say, well, it's okay because of this. And I think, you know, how I see it is, I feel okay continuing to be a massive fan of Beyonce and someone who spends my hard-earned money on her and seeing her and her merch and all that because I'm constantly critiquing. because I'm holding her to a different standard. Yes. Not because I'm just blindly being like, well, she's perfect and she can't do anything wrong.

Right. Like, no, she's not. Nobody is. But I also just think that we are in an era of celebrity where the extremes to which stands go to not want to see any sort of nuance or to have any sort of understanding that your fave can also be problematic at times like human beings are. It's frustrating, I think, as a pop culture fan and a, somebody who's like entrenched in all this. It's frustrating because it just feels like we are

getting away from critical thought and we are getting away from, hey, part of being a fan is actually engaging with this person and with their persona in a smart way. I'm not going to lie, I think most of my faves are a little problematic. They all, of course, of course. They genuinely all are. I can't think of a single person who isn't. And I think if we had microscopes on our lives, you're going to find things. right? Like we're all hypocrites in some level, right? Like you're going to find things, but these are people with platforms. These are people with a responsibility. So you just have to keep pulling and you have to keep asking questions and critiquing and analyzing. And I just think to me, that's part of the fun. Like it is fun to me, not always. You know, certain topics

are more serious. So it's not as fun to unpack. But part of the fun to me being a fan of Beyonce is talking about how she should be showing up. And in the music, going through the history. And, you know, sometimes she gets those lessons wrong, you know. I think it was near the end of the Cowboy Carter tour. She put out a pamphlet about Buffalo soldiers, which were black soldiers who actually did a lot of harm to indigenous communities. And just like upholding them, not mentioning that at all, and just like really glorifying

these soldiers and the harm in which they did to indigenous communities. Again, you have to be able to say, hey, you got this lesson wrong. I appreciate her trying to teach. the history of black Americans and not a race that there's so many contributions that black Americans, black cowboys, that black country artists have given to this country, to America. At the same time, when you get it wrong, we need to be able to say that. Yes. We have to be.

Okay. But do you at all feel a sense of responsibility to protect her as a cultural symbol, though? I used to more than I do. Okay. And I think that's just my own personal relationship to representation. And again, to Black Excellence as like a theory has just changed a lot, I think, in the last few years, especially since 2020. So I feel less like that now. I do think it goes back to what the critiques of Beyonce are.

I think I feel a bit more, maybe not a responsibility, but a bit more inclined to defend her as a musical. genius. Yeah. To defend her as a producer, to defend her as a rapper. She's one of the best rappers of all time. Yep. Yep. Let's have that conversation. I think I feel more inclined to like defend and have like a passionate defense. Yeah. Of her as an artist and her place, you know, if there was a Rolling Stones 100 greatest artists of all time list, like if Beyonce's not like top two, not two, you know, I'm like going to have things to say. Yeah. And I'm going to feel like I want to protect that legacy of musically what she has given us and how much she is like an artistic genius.

And I think genius is a word that black women don't get given enough. And I think that is rooted in misogynor and that speaks a lot to how black women are treated in the music industry as a whole. And I think Beyonce can be sometimes a lightning rod for that. So there are times when I do feel very protective of her legacy as a musical icon. but not necessarily Beyonce, the person or, like, because she's a black woman, I have to put on my armor and, like, go to battle for her. I don't feel that anymore. I think I used to.

I don't feel like that anymore. But I will be in the trenches fighting for her artistic legacy because she is our greatest living artist. Yes, she is. You just motivated me because, like I said, I do struggle with kind of sometimes separating the two, even with, like, surface level things, like the products she puts out. I have to say, I have to be honest, Sir Davis, not the best whiskey. Oh, I haven't tried it yet, which is shocking for me because I own so much Ivy Park. Why was I out here buying every Ivy Park drop? I'm just saying, you, you're saying it's not great.

Baby, and I'm like, so many people got online and I'm like, are you doing this? Because she's our queen, you know? We love and we love and support her. We cherish her. But sometimes we have to critique my baby and say, B, not your best work. That's all I'm going to say. Not your best work. I totally agree.

And I think that so much of it is. And that's why we go back to capitalism. Like, Beyonce is selling us so much. So if she's going to critique the systems, the system of America, she's going to critique America as an entity that harms black folks. The biggest ways it does that is through capitalism. Right. And then she's out here, hockin us whiskey.

whiskey and hair products. Exactly. It doesn't really even matter how quality they are. I think it's just like you have to look at those things together in tandem and say, yeah, she is a capitalist through and through. Yeah. Okay, so I have one more question and then we're going to shift to a quick little game. My last question for you is, is the beehives loyalty just good fan culture or is it bordering on spiritual

devotion. Yes. Yeah, I think, you know, there are different subsex of the beehive. It sounds like you and I are on the same level in that we very much love and respect Beyonce as fans and we maybe do a little too much sometimes. Yes, yes. We have a very healthy understanding of who she is and where she stands. Whereas I do think there are some people who have this like unhealthy devotion to her and cannot see reality at times. They just see their blind devotion to Beyonce. And I think that's where, you know, the comparisons to spiritual connection and to religion and to a cult and all those things come together. And yeah, I think it's both. And I think you can say that about a lot of fandoms right now. I think you can say that about Swifties. I think you can say that

about whatever they call Billy Eilish's fans. Like, I think I think people's relationship to celebrity now is very extreme. So, yeah, I think it can be both. Okay. Yeah, I agree. I don't struggle with this at all. I'm just like, I know that I definitely have a spiritual connection to Beyonce's music. But I did start reevaluating my relationships with artists around the time where, you know, Kanye and the whole slavery is a choice.

You know, and I grew up such a, like, devout Kanye fan. We live the same life. Yeah, same. But, like, literally loved him down. But then I had to realize that this person is a human being and we're all flawed. And I also realized that I put certain people, held them to the standard that no one should ever reach. Absolutely. Yeah.

And it's okay to break up with people. Oh, my God. Like, it's okay to break up with artists. Like, I broke up with Kanye years ago. That's all right. It's okay. I'm still me. I'm still here.

Still here. You know? Still here. That was the hardest breakup of my life. I'm not going to lie to you. But yes. In the same way that you have to learn how to separate the two, but still be able to, you know, analyze your people and be somebody like I can't imagine a world in which I stop listening to

Beyonce because, again, she has brought me so much joy. That's selfishly. I just am like, her music means so much to me. Yeah. At the same time, it could happen. And I'm going to leave room for if something happens. And Beyonce turns out to be somebody who does not align with my values and somebody who, if I am supporting her, I am supporting something I do not believe in, which is what it got to the

point with Kanye. If that happens, okay. Yeah. Then it happens. And I think it would be sad and it would be something that would, I would have to reckon with. But at the same time, I think that that has to be allowed and there has to be room for that. Yeah. All right. So this is the perfect time for us to shift to our game that we play on Sounds

Like a Colts called Colty or just cringe. So I'm going to give you a list of scenarios and you let me know if this is Colty or if it's just cringe. Okay. So first, fans staying up all night to decode lemonade visuals like its scripture. I think it's a bit culty. Yeah. But like, that's not negative. Okay. I don't think that's a negative thing. I think that it's like to stay up all night decoding something definitely feels like you were devoted in a very intense light. But I don't think it was cringe. First of all, I did this. So I understand. Understood.

Okay. Beyonce trademarking her daughter's name, Blue Ivy. Cringe. Yeah. A bit. Yeah. Hashtag capitalism. Listen, Beyonce say, look, you're not making money on my baby's name.

I know. But also, you know what? So smart. Yes. So smart. Because Blue is going to be the greatest artist of the next generation. I'm so excited for my nieces and nephews. I grew up in a world of Beyonce.

They get to grow up in the world of Blue Ivy Carter. Yep. So excited. Yes. For them. Yes. So excited. Cringy nonetheless.

The Beehive flooding Carrie Hilsons socials for years over one alleged dis. Calti and crinch, like both all of the above. Yeah. Leave Carrie alone. Beyonce's fine. Carrie, I don't know. So like, leave her alone. Poor Carrie.

Damn. I'm like, Jesus Christ. Listen, the North never forgets. Anything. Never. Never. Two people, the internet will never let live. Carrie Hilsen and freaking Alicia Keys.

I'm like, dang. Can she live? Yeah, no, they won't. They never forget. It's wild. Unless Beyonce does something wrong, they'll forget about that tomorrow. Exactly, exactly. Wearing full-on metallic cowboy hats and fringe to the Renaissance tour like it's a uniform.

Is there a more positive answer? Because I also did this. I loved it. I think it's a bit culty, though. I will say that the idea that we're all wearing something because our leader told us to, It's a bit culty. But I did it and I loved it. Yeah.

I dressed up for Cowboy Carter. I mean, I did the most. Like, like shopping. Shopping. I did the most. Oh, yes. Yeah. Correct.

I almost wore, I had to wear headphones or else I would have worn the cowboy hat that I bought for Cowboy Carter. And we would have been twinning because my husband was like, you're going to wear the hat, right? I'm like, no. Obviously. Okay. And then my last one is reading Beyonce's silence as divine. wisdom instead of just a PR strategy. Colts.

You're in a cult. Sorry to tell you. You are in a cult. Okay. Now it's time for us to get into the verdict of the show. And so our culties know this, but we always have three cult categories. Live your life. Watch your back.

Or get the fuck out. Kathleen, what say you in the world of the cult? of Beyonce. Live your life. Live your life, sis. We're good. I mean, I think, again, if you've hit some of the criteria that we're talking about, where you think that she is above reproach and she can't be critiqued,

like maybe you need to get out of that mindset. But being a part of the beehive has brought me a lot of joy. I think sharing in it with friends, making new friends like Chelsea, who we are now bonded forever by our mutual love of Beyonce in a healthy way. I think, you know, live your life. Live your life. Same. But watch out for the warning signs that you were in a call.

It's always so funny because every time we do these verdicts for every episode, it always starts off as that first one. And then it kind of, it's always a cusp. It's like, live your life. But, you know, watch your back a little bit. Just watch your back. Yeah. Watch Swarm.

And if you connect to that at all, ugh. Do a little re-evaluate. You endanger. You endanger, girl. Well, Coltis, thanks. so much for listening. Join us for a new episode next week. And in the meantime, stay culty, but not too culty. Sounds like a cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the pod cabin. This episode was hosted and produced by Chelsea Charles. Our managing producer is

Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it five stars on spotify or apple podcasts it really helps the show a lot and be sure to follow the sounds like a cult cult on instagram for all the discourse at sounds like a cult pod or support us on patreon to listen to the show ad free at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult Hello, Overthinkers. It's your host Amanda here with a very exciting something extra to tune into this week. My beloved husband and I were guests on the starter marriage podcast, hosted by my friends Alison Raskin and John Blake's Lee. In this episode, I got more.

personal about my real life than I ever have ever on a microphone. In fact, my husband Casey is here right now. Say hello. Hello, everyone. He's new to podcasting. But in the episode, we talked about our engagement story. Why the hell should a person get married? We talked about how we met, how he dumped me when we were in high school on AIM. We spilled the tea on what we think makes our marriage. Oh, so special. I'm so excited to share this episode with you. Starter marriage is a fantastic show that explores modern marriage, and you can listen to it every Monday, wherever you get your podcasts, including on YouTube.