Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Botox

Episode Date: April 28, 2026

Cancel your frown lines and lean in… because this week on Sounds Like A Cult, Amanda and Chelsea are getting into the wrinkle relaxing world of Botox. What started as a medical treatment for eye twitching has evolved into a beauty mainstay, one that promises to erase your crows feet... for 3 months. From preventative Botox in your 20s to the normalization of injectables as routine maintenance, we’re unpacking how this once taboo procedure became a beauty baseline. We're trying to answer the question a lot of people are asking but not always saying out loud: are we doing this for ourselves, or because everyone else is? Is Botox just modern self-care, or is it giving cult? Subscribe to Sounds Like A Cult on Youtube!Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod, @amanda_montell, @reesaronii, @chelseaxcharles, @imanharirikia.  Thank you to our sponsors! Join the loyalty program for renters at ⁠⁠https://joinbilt.com/cult For free shipping and 365-day returns, go to https://Quince.com/slac  Head to ⁠https://factormeals.com/cult50off⁠ and use code cult50off to get 50% off and free breakfast for a year!  To claim your Double Roses offer before they're gone, visit ⁠https://1800Flowers.com/CULT Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. But what nobody is saying is the specifics of what it actually does. It just paralyzes your muscles so that you can't make the expressions that form wrinkle. Like, if you really get down to the brass tacks, Botox is preventing women from showing emotions. Everybody just wants women to, like, be stiff. Be Still, and Cherub and Young.

This is Sounds Like a Cult, a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host Amanda Montel, author of books including cultish and The Age of Magical Overthinking. And I'm Chelsea Charles, an unscripted TV producer and a lifelong student of pop culture sociology. Every week on the show, we discuss a different group or guru that puts the cults in culture, from Joe Rogan to Theater Camp. to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? And if so, which of our three cult categories does it fall into? A liquor life, a watcher back, or a get the fuck out.

After all, cult-ish, thinking, and behavior exists on a spectrum these days, and sometimes it shows up in contemporary places that don't necessarily look like the satanic basement gatherings or remote mid-Somar-esque fields you might expect. That's right. Sometimes a modern day cult could show up in the skincare industry, operated by ex-nurses who speak in units and repeat the word preventative like a mantra. I'm talking about a cult of aesthetics that seems to have reached an all-time high in our culture, one that suggests you've achieved God status when your face doesn't move.

Today, we're driving forehead first into the cult of Botox, hoping to analyze it through our cheeky, but also kind of serious cult lens to determine how messed up this false promise of immortality really is. I've been thinking a lot about Botox recently, have you? I mean, because I just saw the movie Hamnet, the like beautiful cinematic drama, and the lead in that movie Jesse Buckley has a face that moves.

And watching her in this period drama with like a face that was totally, believable as existing in the 1600s or whenever that was, I was just like, God, this is refreshing. And did that stop me from making a Botox appointment literally the next day? No. I was like, oh, how beautiful that is for her. But as for me in my house. Yeah. Exactly. As for me and my expressions, we've got to dial it back. Do you fuck with Botox? Okay. So I have gotten Botox before. I got Botox year before last for the first time and I got it last year again. I will say I am quite literally obsessed with Botox. I think it's so fire. I love the feeling after it sets in.

Here's the thing. It wasn't good to my pockets. The only reason I haven't upkept, but I live for a good Botox. Okay, love that. Thank you for sharing. I can't say I'm like quite as proud of of my Botoxia. Maybe I should be. Okay, I owned it more shamelessly like five years ago because this was my trajectory. So I used to work in the beauty industry where there is this very like keep up with the Joneses. Like everyone else is getting the injectables and the highlights and the nails and the whatnot. So that is a cold in and of itself.

And I would have liked to think I was immune to it, but I definitely was not. And I have archived a lot of my Instagram photos. I'm so embarrassed of what I used to look like. But anyways, just because it was inauthentic. Anywho, when I was 25, almost 26, I got Botox for the first time because it was free. Like, in the beauty industry, there were always offers to come and get Botox in exchange for, like, potential coverage or, like, interviewing that plastic surgeon for press at some point. But it was also because I had just gotten these, like, film portraits taken. One of my best friends from high school came and took some portraits of me, which are beautiful, beautiful photos on film. And, like,

One of my favorite things about film photos is how tactile and textured they are. But I noticed for the first time that you could see these like static frown lines on my forehead. And the story that I told myself and that I still tell myself, but maybe it's a lie and maybe we'll unpack it today, is that I didn't want to look permanently angry because I don't feel like an angry person. Well, sometimes. But in general, I didn't want people to look at my face and see frown lines all the time. I like frown in concentration when I work, you know, when I'm like writing, I grimace, unfortunately. So I was like, oh, God, I've got to treat those. And then it was just right there. Like, it was free.

Yeah. But then after I left the beauty industry, I've still upkept the Botox. Not a lot. Every like six months, I would say. So it really, it wears off. My face does move a little too much. You can always tell what I'm thinking. But yeah, that's my journey with Botox. I did write about it at the beauty magazine. I was a little prouder of it like five years ago because there was that like, you go girl like pseudo. body positivity movement happening back then where it's like, yes, be forthcoming about all the shit that you're getting. It's hashtag self-care. But now I'm actually kind of coming around the other way and wanting to unpack it. So that's a long-ass monologue to say that I get Botox, but I'm not excited about it necessarily. Man, that's super interesting because I feel like if we're talking about, you mentioned body positivity, which is kind of like accepting people for who they are and accepting yourself or who you are, but I also feel like that would fall still, like, Botox and be able to fix the things that you don't like kind of fits into that thing too, because it's like, okay,

I don't like this thing, so I'm going to change it. And I totally think that's valid. I mean, that's how I treat it. But then I also wonder how much is my authentic desire and like my own independent sense of choice factoring in and how much of it is this like cult-interested. influence from ultimately like the imperialist capitalistic patriarchy to get like this. Of course. Of course. At the end of the day. But yeah, I think on the sort of like body neutrality, body positivity argument, well, first of all, like, I agree with that. And I can't help but be like, oh yeah, no, no, no. All of that body positivity and acceptance applies to other people not to me because it's whatever. It's like you hold yourself to like a different standard. It's like, oh my God,

everybody else should take the weekends off, but I have to work. Right. It's just like masochism at a point. But also not masochism, it's ego because you're like, you know, whatever. It's like maybe I don't really know what it is. That's between me and my higher power slash therapist. But I do think a lot of that conversation ends up being about like personal choice. Like you do you.

Yes. But what is personal choice in a culture that is so shaped by politics and misogyny and the beauty standards that are wrapped up in that. Like, we are living in a time of increased conservatism and sexism. And I can't help but think that that does have to do with the rise in Botox and like the frozen faces we're seeing in movies and stuff. Which makes me actually want to ask you, before we get into like the history and all the stuff that we have to do on a sounds like a cult episode for our due diligence. I wanted to ask you, like, why do you feel like Botox was an appropriate topic for this show? Why do you think it's become not just a trend, but maybe something more like a cult?

just because of how it just shows up so commonly in everyday conversation. There is a coltlight following around aesthetics and skin care in itself. And one of the arguments for Botox more recently and how everyone has been able to kind of like, I guess push it to the forefront in the skincare world is because they say that Botox increases the elasticity in your face. So it's been helping the adult acne girlies be able to kind of like justify the usage. And so we see it so much in the zeitgeist now aligned with, like I said, like skin care,

that it just made sense for us to unpack it here. Yeah, no, it's taken over. It's like the luboo of the face. Yes, absolutely. Botox is as much a part of conversations now as like Stanley Cups were in 2024. Definitely. It's like, what's the deal with Botox, everybody? Is it a cult?

I will also add that, you know how like for like red carpeting? season, people analyze the outfit. So like people, oh yeah, this person is wearing Alexander McQueen, blah, blah, blah, blah. Now people are tending to do the analyzing of the face of the work that people they think have had done. I think it is the most hilarious thing now that it's just not a conversation that we were having like maybe like 30 years ago. So I think it's extremely relevant. Yes, yes. Okay. So I think it's time to get into Botox's culty origin story and then how it went from this kind like underground taboo thing to something that we're openly analyzing on the faces of celebrities the way that we would talk about their jewelry. Yes.

So once upon a time, Coltis, Botox was not the stuff on real housewives. Sources say the bacteria clostridium botulinum was first discovered in 1895 by Belgian scientists following a botulism out. outbreak in Belgium, after a bunch of people ate some really bad sausage. So sorry, I'm going to the word sausage. It just sends me. Of course, whenever a new bacteria drops, scientists go nuts and start to study it religiously. Enter the father of Botox. Our Botox Zaddy. Dr. Edward Schatz. Dr. Edward Shantz. Shants. I feel like it's Shons. Shants. You're right.

Was he hot? Let's look him up. Oh, no. Oh, no. To each their own. Oh, no. Quirky glasses. So not a zaddy. Not a zaddy. You know what? We can't all be good at everything. Okay.

He was good at turning lemons into lemonade. And wow, it is funny that, like, the father of this aesthetic cult was like, kind of a... Wait, Amanda, I will not let you do this. Did you look at an OG picture of him? When he was younger? he's kind of fine. Okay, so yeah. So yeah.

So maybe, okay, so maybe this is how this makes sense. Is he was like, oh my God, I aged poorly. I used to be a fox. And I want to prevent others from experiencing my downward spiral. Yes. Yes. Got it. Okay.

So Dr. Edward Shantz finally isolated the paralytic toxin into crystalline form to make botulinum toxin in 1946. By the 1970s, another Botox daddy, Dr. Allen Scott, purified the toxin and began using it to treat cross eyes and eye twitching. Oh, I actually lived for that. It's so funny. It reminds me of how, like, Latee, the eyelash growth serum, was a glaucoma medication. And they were like, oh, it can also help make people hot. Oh, I actually did not know that.

That's like this. It was supposed to be like a cross-eye medication. And here we are. And then they were like, oh, it can actually. make people hot. Put this in my 11s. Okay. And by the late 80s,

it was used to treat eye muscle disorders. And that's when people started to notice that not only did their eyes not spasm anymore, but their wrinkles disappeared after each use. By 2002, the FDA approved Botox for the cosmetic treatment of frown lines marking its widespread entry into aesthetics, and the rest, they say, is history.

Wow. Okay, so that was then, and this is now. And now I would say, even since I started getting Botox in 2017, it is like so much more discussed. It's normalized, but it's also criticized. What do you think has changed even in the past five years, but especially since 10, 15, 20 years ago when people really were not open about their Botox use? I feel like what shifted is our access to the, information. When celebrities started dropping the jewels and showing what's going on behind the scenes, going to those Botox parties and getting Botox and doing the plastic surgery, it allowed us to feel the sense of like we are in the inside along with them. And then it was like permission. And I also noticed that as soon as celebrities started talking about it and I feel like the Kardashians were probably, I mean like their role in setting these standards is not to be underestimated. But I remember they started being a little more forthcoming, at least some of them. And the cosmetic

surgery industry got really excited about that and started saying about how that was such a positive thing. And I think all of that subtly or not so subtly encouraged more and more people to develop a curiosity about it. And then it just became a standard. It wasn't this thing that like, oh, only those like really vain, shallow people do. It was just something totally normal. Right. And that is the trajectory that a lot of aesthetic procedures have gone on like, you know, the Vox Explained series. They have a great episode on Plastic Surgery Explained. And I learned from that episode that a lot of cosmetic procedures or even just like tweaks that don't require going under the knife or going under the needle start out as being taboo and then increasingly become the norm. Like even

dyeing your hair was considered taboo in like the 1950s. And people would like do it in secret. and even applying makeup in public was like so hush-hush. You weren't supposed to do that. And then the needle moved, no pun intended. And now it's even not necessarily taboo to talk about, you know, like my husband got a hair transplant and he talks very openly about that. I think just plastic surgery and cosmetic procedures overall are becoming more normalized, which you could think of as a good thing. But I think also there's some sinister encouragement on the part of the industry to make it normal so that more people get it. Yes. Now, there are other factors that have potentially contributed to this, culty rise, according to an article in the Washington Post titled,

How Botox Went Middle Class. Botox is no longer secretive or elite. The explosion of meddy spas and so-called Botox bars across cities meant that you didn't necessarily need to be a celebrity or super wealthy to get injected. And then, of course, aggressive marketing from manufacturers and the beauty industry, you know, articles that I myself wrote about Botox, as well as portrayals on reality TV. Like, I remember there was a Botox party scene in the show Selling Sunset. All have framed Botox as this expected ritual for, and this is so culty, preventing aging, which is just like such a futile effort, obviously, like, if you can guarantee anything in life, it's that time will go on and you'll either age or die. But a lot of very serious cults from history have

promised immortality in some way, mystical transcendence. And some of that is like sci-fi and creepy, and some of that feels more mainstream, like Botox. But that false promise, like you said, of immortality is still there. There's this beauty industry critic and journalist named Jessica Defino, who is actually a guest way back in the day on Sounds Like a Cult skincare episode,

who gave a great interview with NPR about Botox. And she said, I like to refer to what's happening right now with respect to Botox as aesthetic inflation. So like everything is just ballooning and you know it's like lifestyle inflation. Like if you get a raise or if you like start to move up in social class, your lifestyle moves up to fit that. But then it makes it really hard to like go back. And that's what's happening with Botox. Yeah. So what used to be whispered about now is talked about as casually as a manicure or a blowout. In 2024, U.S. neuromodulator procedures nearly doubled from before the pandemic, which some suggest could be due

to the Zoom boom when everyone started staring at their face all day in Zoom meetings during the pandemic, which led to steep increase in cosmetic procedures. That's insane to think about. I mean, that makes sense. Like, I can relate to that. I definitely scrutinize my face way more now that like podcasts are supposed to have a video component. We do have a small YouTube channel, by the way, if anyone wants to watch our show. And I do find myself like being more concerned about my face. Because of that, I'm staring at it more. There's like a culture of self-obsession for better and for worse right now. And I think technology really mediates that. I also think there's something to be said, like this idea, which was again during like COVID times. It falls under the like wellness

umbrella, right? Of like you have to be productive. You have to be bettering yourself. And I watch all these lifestyle videos with these people like 5 a.m. I'm making a high protein breakfast and I'm taking my 10,000 steps a day and here's my Botox. It's just like, I don't know. I totally understand what you're saying. Oh yeah. It's also and like that type of person earned a label too, right? It's that girl. That girl as a phrase means like a woman who is super composed, has her shit together, wakes up to go to Pilates at 6am, gets for Botox every three months is basically participating in a lot of different culty behaviors that society overall celebrates. Right. Speaking about that girl, who do we think the cult leaders are here within the cult of Botox? Is it the cosmetic surgeons or the pharmaceutical companies

or influencers? I think there's a lot of mutual escalation happening among all of those different parties that makes it hard to pinpoint one particular charismatic leader. Like, Medi Spa owners and doctors benefit from influencers talking about Botox. Of course, like the pharmaceutical companies who own Botox and also the generic brands. Like I've also gotten Zemin before, it's also like a neurotoxin that paralyzes your face. Oh, that reminds me of the other wild thing that I think is culty about Botox is that there's all this very vague messaging that Botox gets rid of your wrinkles or makes you ageless or like prevents aging. But what nobody is saying is the specifics of what it actually does. It just paralyzes your

muscles so that you can't make the expressions that form wrinkle. Like people who never smile will never have smile lines. I know that sounds obvious. And we'll talk about the like existential implications of this later. But if you really get down to the brass tax, Botox is preventing women from showing emotions. It's honestly kind of handmade's tail. Like everybody just wants women to be still. Be still and cherub and young. Yes. To be still, to be cherub like cheroobic. Ooh, cherubic. Cherubic. How about that? And it's almost like a silencing tactic. It's like it's silencing your face. So yeah, I don't know. I think it's really hard to pinpoint one specific cult leader because like one week it could be a certain celebrity who's talking about it and one week it could be

plastic surgeon who has a YouTube video go viral. Of course, the pharmaceutical companies are benefiting, but I think that's one of the reasons why this might not be traditionally thought of as a cult because there's not like a preacher being like, everybody get Botox. Yeah. What do you think? I wanted to say that you mentioned a few times, like the whole med spa world. And I will say, I think what's so interesting about Botox as a cult, Botox as a trend is how it's also been able to change the trajectory of like, will people decide their career path? Like, I have so many friends who started off like bedside nursing and they're saving lives, which is a job with so much responsibility. And now, I guess, feeling the weight of the world, or for whatever reason, have decided to

peace out to bedside nursing. Wow. And they're on the aesthetic side. And I cannot tell you the amount of friends I have now who have gone in that direction. And I just find it, super, super interesting. That is really interesting. Like, as the weight of the world becomes heavier, it unfortunately is making people be like, you know what, I don't want to spend my life doing this. I'm no martyr. Let me just use my training to do something like a little lighter.

Yeah. Whoa. So they're like getting sucked into the cult from another direction. Absolutely. I just wanted to make that point. But to answer your question, I definitely believe the cult leaders are the influencers, the celebs. If I can line them up, the celebs slash influencers are at the top.

Totally. They're like literally the face of this cult. Yes. And that's why I appreciated seeing Jesse Buckley's face in Hamnet. And why like, you know, Amanda Seifred has been doing press for some movies that she has coming out. Then of course there's Queen Claire Daines who the internet is so cruel to because her face folds. Cameron Diaz. Yeah.

And I'm so grateful for them. And again, I would love to think. that I'm not as influenced by the cult of celebrity beauty standards because we're in this line of work and we're critiquing this stuff all the time and I'm not in the beauty industry anymore. But seeing the counter to that, like seeing people whose faces really do move on screen, it really made me realize like, oh my God, I am totally in this cult. And if everyone's face on screen moved to the way that Jesse Buckley's and Amanda Seifred's and Claire Danes's and Cameron Diaz's did, then I would probably not be doing this.

Right. So you're totally right. Okay, but in terms of like recruitment strategies to getting people in and keeping them there, I credit so much to the culty language in the Botox world. Terms like baby talks, preventative Botox. There is so much euphemism happening in this world that makes it seem like, oh, like you can quit at any time. This isn't a big deal. You know, you're not getting plastic surgery. This is good for you. Just a tiny little. So I want to break down some of the terms that you might not realize are contributing to the culture of Botox that like in group feeling. So there's baby talks, which is getting a little bit of Botox to prevent lines down the road. That's what people called it when I first started getting it. It's so untrue. What's your take?

I don't know. Like the same thing what we were talking about earlier is like you don't want to fully say that you are involved in the cult. So they try to put it on like a small scale so you can kind of like ease your way into. something. We're like, oh yeah, I just get a little baby tox. It's Botox. You're just getting a little less. It's the same thing. It's literally the same exact thing. It reminds me of like in Scientology when they're recruiting new members and they're like, oh, you can belong to any religion, you know, you can just have one foot in, one foot out, which is not true. They just make you think that at the beginning. The term angry 11s also, this is like a charged label,

some of that loaded language that is distinctive to cults. Your angry 11s are your frown lines. And when you label them angry 11s, it makes it so easy to demonize, like, oh, you've got to get rid of those angry 11s. They're not angry. For me, they're a sign of concentration. But when you label it that way, it's like, oh, my God, we got to load up on paralyzing the angry 11s so that I'm not angry so that I'm a pretty happy girl. There's, and I hadn't heard this before, but the Nefertiti named after the Egyptian queen who, Chelsea, you were explaining, had like a snatched jaw? Yeah. There are beautiful busts after Nefertiti.

Nefertiti, her jaw line was snatched, honey. It was beautiful. Okay. Yeah, it could slice a man in half. Okay, so the nefertiti, which really feels like this highfalutant label, like, oh my God, if you just get Botox here, you'll recreate the image of a queen. Yeah. That refers to Botox placement in your jaw and neck to give you that razor sharp jaw line. Oh, I've heard this one. The lines from the corners of your mouth to your chin, your nasal labiod folds, as they say, they refer to those lines. as the marionettes. So now you're a fucking clown. Fix your face. There's the parentheses or the bunny lines. Those are the lines from your nose to the corners of your mouth. Those like cute little bunny lines that they're now demonizing. There's the lip flip, which is Botox put around the mouth to make your lips look filler. There's Brotox when men get Botox. Give me a fucking break.

Okay. Because now that we're modifying it from Botox to Brotox, it implies that the default is for women. We don't need to spell this out. We already feel it. But it's like, oh no, anti-aging is for women. Like women are the only ones who aren't supposed to age. It's like, you know, when men wear eyeliner, it's like dye liner, whatever. Or like dude wipes. I'm like, it's just a wipe. Yeah, dude wipes. You're just wiping your ass. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. I know. It's like, why do we have to genderify everything? And then there's the us versus them label of no talks describing people who are vehemently against it. that is this kind of ideological war that I've seen emerged too, is that like as Botox is getting

more popular, there are others who are like doubling down and now starting to judge it even more. I've seen that, you know, like I remember maybe three years ago when it was sin, I guess, the golden age of being able to talk about Botox publicly and not have it be taboo. People would be like, oh yeah, cool. Like, do you? And now that there's more of this divide, I've noticed that sometimes when I'll mention it or when it comes up, there will be certain, you know, no toxers. will be like, oh my God, I would never, I would never, because I think they have the, like,

extreme Anne Hathaway face in our minds, you know? I also think that it's because there's a lot of misinformation regarding neurotoxins in general, but some people don't know what the hell they're talking about. They're like, yeah, her face looks so plump and fat and all these things. And it's like, oh, you're referring to filler. Do you don't know what you're talking about at all? And the thing about gender specifically, the idea that guys do. not know that other guys get Botox as well.

Like, it is a thing. Like, it's so much scrutiny with women specifically with getting the treatments with no idea that men are walking around in plain sight and they are getting Botox. Oh, 100%. A hundred percent. Actors on screen. It's so true. And that's part of this cult that just upsets me so much is that what are we supposed to do?

I mean, like, women are not supposed to age. But if you overshoot the mark even a little bit, now. you'll be censured for being this like Stepford wife. And I'm just like, we got to back up and have a conversation about beauty standards and not necessarily blame like certain individuals or just be like overly mean. I mean, we're being mean to women on either side of the spectrum. Yeah. I see people being mean about Amanda Seifred's face. I see people being mean about Ariana Grande's face. And Arrinators don't come from me. I know she said that she doesn't get Botox anymore, but like, let's be real. Look at her face. But Chelsea, you're completely right that some people don't actually.

know what Botox is. And so they'll just see someone's face being doctored in a negative way and be like, oh my God, like they're getting so much Botox. And it's like, actually the thing that you're not liking about their face is the filler. Now that said, Botox is being marketed for a whole hell of a lot of things beyond just aging. People use it in the armpits, hands and feet to control sweating. They also use it in the calves for slimmer legs, in the traps to reduce big back muscles. It's been used to treat overactive bladders, anal fissures, vaginismus. The makers of Botox are like, this is a one-man band of miracles. I also saw this new trend of men like putting Botox in their scrotum to reduce fine lines.

In their balls? And to appear to be more voluptuous, like bigger. And I'm like, aren't balls supposed to be wrinkly? I don't know. Look, if you're interacting with a ball, odds are you're so close to it. can't even really see it. I'm like cross-eyed every time I interact with a pair of testicles. You know what I mean? I don't know if there's wrinkles or what. Oh my God. You know, I once, wow, I don't know, sure, we can include this long before I was married when I was really out here, you know, exploring my roster.

I dated a guy who had a prosthetic ball because he was a testicular cancer survivor. Oh, shut out. Yeah, for sure. He was also a goof. He was a total hymbo. And his face. He was a face. He was a testicular cancer. And, favorite joke was to like take like a hammer, you know, the nearest weapon and like kind of. Okay. All right. Yeah. Do a little, do a little gag with the prosthetic ball. It looked like a plain regular ball. And I'll tell you right now, I looked at that ball a lot and I can't tell you how many fine lines there were or were not. See? So no need for the Botox. And it's so, listen, we talk about this all the time, but we have lived such parallel lives because while you dated someone with one ball. I dated someone with three. There is called Polly, Polly something, something. Now, to be

completely fair, we dated after the removal of the third, okay. Oh my God. But they had a war wound from their surgery. They were having issues. It was apparently too large, too long hanging. they would say that it would hang out their shorts. And so they were like, it was a hazard, had to be removed. Normalize testicular quirks. She knows. How? Did you blouse?

No. The devil wears prodig too. He's the movie event 20 years in the making. Honestly, can't with the secrets anymore. So I think we just, we should tell her. Will you two please spit it out already? This Friday, be the first to experience it. in theaters.

In light of the recent scandal, I'm here to restore your credibility. Oh, because we're a team now? That's a nice story. The Devil Wares Prada 2 in Theaters Friday. Welcome aboard Via Rail. Please sit and enjoy. Please sit and stretch. Steep.

Flip. Or that. And enjoy. Via Rail, love the way. We're out here discussing these important matters. Okay. Where were we? Oh, the cult of Botox and some scary shit that they say to keep you in. Yes. Okay. So let's get into some of the sunk costs associated with Botox. There's this old Botox gospel. Once you start, you can never stop. Who hasn't heard that before while visiting their favorite injecta? Oh yeah. They're like, oh my God, you're going to get addicted. You're going to get obsessed. And I'm like, I really hope not, actually.

you wild-eyed fool. So, spoiler alert, that's not true. You can literally quit Botox, cold turkey, and your face will not melt off. But this little mantra isn't about being sincere. It's about indoctrination. It's framed as once you see how good you look, you won't want to stop. It's not true. I have gone like a full year, year and a half without getting Botox.

I don't even notice until, again, like we were saying before, I see myself. in a video. This just happened to me the other day. This is why I made the Botox appointment because I looked back at a video that we were filming of an episode of this podcast and I was like, damn, my forehead is just like out of control. And yeah, I think it's so unfortunate that now that everybody is supposed to document themselves online lest you cease to exist, we're now forced to scrutinize ourselves. I'm like, oh my God, give it a rest. I'm sick of it. But it's like for my stupid, wonderful job, I love doing this. But I have to be. I actually do wish I didn't have to be on camera so much, because I don't want to, I just want to see

myself the way that others see me in real life, you know, the way that I see my friends, you know, like I don't notice my friend's wrinkles in real life, but you do notice it on camera. And that said, Botox is totally temporary. You're really only signing up for a three-month commitment. But that said, if you want to keep up with it, you got to go back every three to six months. And that is not cheap. I get a little, like, bank or whatever, like a Botox bank, whenever they have like a big sale, I like load up on like a years worth of Botox. It's a heavy investment. I'm over it. And, you know, if you've spent all this money to look younger, whatever, prevent wrinkles from forming for all these years, then stopping can feel like, oh, well, what was all that for if I'm just going to start forming wrinkles now?

Which I actually think is fallacious thinking, because like, if you go five years without your face moving as much, that will be five years of wrinkle prevention. You know what I mean? Like, So in a way you will kind of look five years younger. That's girl math. But whatever. Like, it's not like it'll be like all for nothing, but the industry does kind of make you feel that way, which is so culty. Because when you think about one of the major red flags and cults being that they don't give people an easy and dignified way to leave, that's true here too. Yeah.

I was trying to make a connection with the cult of weddings because that's literally why I got Botox. Oh, no. I mean, that's a great point. There are so many cult industries that overlap with Botox. Yes, absolutely. The cult of weddings. And it was because I was consuming so much wedding content during the time of I'm planning for my wedding. I started getting these videos about women showing their six month out, three month out,

Botox plan if you've never gotten Botox before. No way. And so I got Botox for my wedding. And I started because I was like, oh, I want to be. want to try this out, but I still want to be able to cry and show emotion. But it's this whole thing that I kind of like, you put it into your wedding budget. You kind of like price it out and all the things. And I don't know, I just felt like I was influenced at the time because I'm like, I want to look perfect on that special day. That is a great clue that your instinct about the influencers being

the cult leader here and the celebrities is spot on because it's not like you saw a billboard for some meddy spa about like get Botox for your wedding. It was the boots on the ground grassroots influence who was like, this is what I did and this is what you should do too. Yes. Yes. Okay, so obviously brides are vulnerable to falling into the cult of Botox. But what demographic do you think is the most vulnerable to this cult in a truly negative way? I would say younger girlies. Just because there is this beauty standard that they feel like they have to kind of like subscribe to an order to remain youthful, remain beautiful. And, you know, I just think it's sad. This idea that it's like you have to do Botox. It's become so, so, so normalized. I've actually

worked with a few influencers who as young as 21 and 22 have started their Botox journey. And for me, I'm just like, what is selling that idea of preventative? It's like, what wrinkles do you even see? What wrinkles do you have? It's a cult of fear. It's a cult of fear of aging. And it's having extremely deleterious effects on younger generations. Yes. Okay, so getting more into Botox effect on your mental health. The same Washington Post article we mentioned before notes that despite its normalized status,

experts still warn about unsafe practices like bargain Botox, societal pressures that equate aging with failure, especially for women, and the inequality in who can afford the line-free skin versus who cannot. So many studies reflect how rigid, modern beauty standards perpetuated on social media, the rise of Instagram face, are having significant and even life-threatening mental health consequences, especially for young girls. One study from Dove's self-esteem research project uncovered that 85% of girls had already used filters and facetune by age 13. And the number of inquiries to plastic surgeons from teens has been on the rise as well. That's so, oh my God, that's so sad. And all of this feeds into

the broader cult dynamic here, behaviors and beliefs that were once French become ritualized and expected, but also judged by outsiders, all with seriously detrimental consequences for the followers and benefits those in power. Oh my God. When you put it that way, it's just so obvious that this is a cult of sorts. And as we've been mentioning, like, it breaks my heart how it's taken over Hollywood. One of the reasons why I really, really wanted to do this episode this year is because I came across this amazing video on YouTube that this YouTuber named Marina McBain made, titled Hollywood Has a New Face and it's terrifying.

Talking about how certain Hollywood actors, I mean, yeah, Ann Hathaway comes from mine, Nicole Kidwin, comes from mine, their clear overuse of neuromodulators like Botox and filler are not only perpetuating this like unnatural, non-expressive face as the new beauty standard, but it's made their performances hard to read on screen. I'm just like, what fucking face are you making? Like, we're social creatures like fine-tuned to read others' facial expressions. And if Nicole mother fucking Kidman is not allowed to frown on screen. That bitch should be able to frown. It's the end of society.

And it's also the end of being, not the end, but it's also like a threat to being able to enjoy the art of cinema. Like, Nicole Kidman can like never be in a period piece ever again. I mean, until she stops getting Botox. Because her face doesn't work. It doesn't. Before 2010. Like, that is not a face for the 1800s.

No. No, it's not. And Nicole Kidman is like quite an incredible actor. And this overusage, our legends are gone outside. That's all I got to say. It's too much. It's too much. I know.

I know it's a threat to art. Like in a real way. It is. Trash. For them. Not for me. It's not a threat to the art of podcasting. Let me be very clear.

My God. Okay. So Colties, I think it's time to talk about some horror stories associated with the cult of bowtie. According to an article in the BBC, studies in expert voices suggest that long-term use can subtly change muscle behavior and that there are rare but real risks, especially if injections aren't administered by trained professionals who involve counterfeit products, meaning safety depends heavily on who is giving the shots and how. Yeah, in April of 2024, the CDC actually issued a warning after 22 women between the ages of 25 and 59 had these like terrifying reactions to counterfeit or poorly handled Botox. 11 of these women ended up hospitalized.

And six needed an antitoxin usually reserved for actual botulism cases. And that's a condition where toxins spreads beyond the local site and attacks a central nervous system. and that can cause like muscle paralysis and difficulty breathing and even death. And every single one of these cases happened after getting injections from unlicensed injectors in non-medical settings, which is sometimes called backyard Botox. Pretty scary. I actually remember, I mean, this isn't quite that high stakes, but one of my closest friends' mom got Botox a couple years ago and that thing happened where like her eye was like fucked up and shut for like two months. It was a whole.

horror story, I will say. That's terrifying. That's like my worst nightmare. Oh, I know. No, she looks crazy. And she's a preschool teacher. So it's kind of horrifying for the children. Yeah. You know, kids are, they're ruthless, baby. They're ruthless. That's true. They were probably giving her shit, honestly. The children are the cult leaders. I'm just kidding. But no, the children are the cult critic. Like, what did you do, Miss Lady? But yeah, those are the type of risks that, I mean, you sign a waiver and whatever the fuck. But like, your Medi Spa nurse is not like, oh, by the or I could end up ceiling shut for two months. Instead, she's like, oh my God, love, Slay girl, you're going to look a maze. Yeah. In this same BBC article, it goes on to cite that a

2023 study led by neurologist Mitchell Bryn at UC Irvine that scanned the brains of 10 women before and after they got Botox. All right, this is a scary part. While looking at photos of angry, happy, and neutral faces, their post-Botox brain activity changed. in two key emotion processing areas. The amygdala and the fusion form gyrus. Okay, come on science. This is like a neuroscience right now. Sounds like a cult is a science podcast.

I'm just kidding. Damn, okay. Emotion processing areas. So translation, yes, Botox might mess with your ability to read the room. That's brainwashing. Yeah. I mean, that is like body snatching.

Yes. Like we're compromising women's ability to process other people. people's emotions, like, that's like some pluribus shit right now. Yes. I mean, but also, like, the proof is in the title. How we classify these are like dead giveaways. It's neuromodulator neurotoxin. It's like, yeah, that's kind of scary. Humans are emotional copycats. We instinctively mimic facial expressions to help decode how others are feeling. But if your smile muscles are on pause, your empathy might be too. Other studies back this up. Botox can make it harder to

recognize and respond to emotions. That makes complete sense. Because mirror neurons, y'all. Because mirror neurons. Anywho. So I'm scared. You can't tell because my forehead's frozen. Just kidding. I haven't re-uped yet. I think it's actually now time to play a game. And it's just us playing this game today. And Culties, feel free to play along with us. The game is Culte or just Cringe. So we're going to read to each other a list of Botox-related scenarios. And we're going to determine whether they are culty or just cringe. I'm ready. Okay.

So, Amanda, is this culty or is it cringe? Botox parties at someone's apartment. I think it's culty because it reminds me of like Tupperware parties, like MLM parties. Ooh. Ooh, yeah. Okay. It's like trying to make something that's not that funny, like fun and adorable. It's not.

What do you think? I think it's culty and cringe because of what we talked about earlier. And how do we even know who's administered? during these. These. 100%. So true. It's a little strange.

I don't know. Okay. Next one. Coulter just cringe. Being on a first name basis at Laser Away. I think that's just cringe. Just cringe. I'm so called out.

I don't think I'm on a first name basis at Laser Away because, again, I don't go that often. But that is where I get my Botox not sponsored. And I mean, if they want to cover it, great. Gang, gang. Okay. Cultier just cringe. saying you get baby Botox, but you actually get three syringes full every three months like clockwork.

Cringy. Yeah. That's cringy and annoying. Yeah. Stop lying to everyone and stop lying to yourself. Okay. Getting Botox regularly and saying that you've never gotten Botox. I hate.

I hate. Ooh. That's got to be culty because you're like part of the coal, but you know there's something wrong with it and you're not contending with that cognitive dissonance. Yeah. It's also like an us first. versus them quite obviously because you don't want anyone to know the secret secrets. That example is the ultimate Gaslight Gatekeep girl boss. Oh my God. Yes, quintessentially.

Okay, next one. Telling people once you get Botox, you can never stop. That's Colty. For sure. Because this is straight up lie. Relying on your injector to tell you where you need Botox versus where you want Botox. That's Colty. And I've had to resist this before.

being able to raise one eyebrow, like in a flirty way, but also in a skeptical way, is like a huge part of my personality. And I've had injectors try to get rid of my ability to do that. And I've been like, no, like, this is who I am. Sorry about it. Oh, my God. Yes. I love those injectors who they don't try to like upsell you on something. You just go in and you're like, here's what I'm feeling. And they kind of, you know. Totally. Last one. Telling someone you just got a little Botox when you actually got a full Chris Jenner face lift. I think that's like cringe. So, so, I mean, that's like delusional.

Like, you need help. Just stop. Like, I can see, like, your ear thing. You're flat. I know. Like, be serious. It's like back away from that person slowly. They're not okay.

All right. I think we've appropriately assessed today's cult, which means we have to get to our verdict, Chelsea. Out of our three cult categories. Live your life. Watch your back. and get the fuck out. Which do you think the cult of Botox falls into?

The cult of Botox is a thousand percent a watcherback. Yeah. Yeah. I can't police what you spend your money on at all. But it's one of those things where just be careful where you're getting your Botox, where it's being sourced from. And remember, it is your choice. You have autonomy.

You can always step away. Yeah. I think what watch your back means to me is we need to think a little bit more critically and with more awareness about the ageism and sexism and the political atmosphere that is all contributing to this rise in Botox. Honestly, it's all making me want to get it less. I mean, I'm joking throughout this episode about like having a Botox appointment on the books that I do. But I'm reckoning with that right now. And being able to see faces like Jesse Buckley's on screen had a really positive impact on me. Seeing Nicole Kidman's frownless forehead on screen is

a tragedy. And so, yeah, I'm watching my back, and I would suggest others do as well. Yeah. Well, that is our show. Thanks so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culting.

But not too culting. Sounds like a cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Pied Cabin. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel and Chelsea Charles. This episode was produced by Chelsea Charles. Our manager producer is Katie. Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it. If you could leave it five stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, it really helps the show a lot.

And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish, the Language of Thanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, The Age of Magical O overthinking, notes on modern irrationality, and words slut, a feminist guide to taking back the English language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71. And be sure to follow the sounds like a cult cult, cult, on Instagram for all the discourse at Sounds Like a CultPod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad-free at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult.