Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Bravoholics

Episode Date: November 11, 2025

This week, Amanda and Reese are being initiated into the high-drama, low-stakes universe of the Bravoholics. Joined by Steve, certified Bravoholic and owner of @facesbybravo, we’re breaking down the sacred texts (from Real Housewives reunions to Vanderpump Rules scandals), the high priests (Andy Cohen), and the ritualistic weekly watch parties that lead only the most devoted viewers to the mecca of BravoCon. Whether you’re a casual Summer House viewer or have a housewives franchise for every night of the week, we’re sure you’d agree Bravo has had the girls, gays, and theys in a CHOKEHOLD since 2003, and we’re here to get to the bottom of it. Are we in a parasocial relationship with a network? Is "who gon' check me, boo?" a mantra for the modern age? Grab your skinny margarita and join the congregation as we ask: when does a fandom become a faith? Subscribe to Sounds Like A Cult on Youtube!Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod, @amanda_montell, @reesaronii, @chelseaxcharles.  Thank you to our sponsors! Earn points on rent and around your neighborhood, wherever you call home, by going to https://joinbilt.com/culty Use code SLAC to get started at https://AdamandEve.com right now! London! Come see Sounds Like A Cult LIVE!! November 24th at Bush Hall. Get tickets before they're gone!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. There was a whole scandal this past year where a couple creators, I guess, were planting things online so that two of the housewives, could talk about it on the show. It was crazy. Scandalous. They want to be recognized.

They want God to answer their prayer. Yeah. That's really what it is. Some people go to church on Sunday. I watch Real Housewives of Potomac. This is Sounds Like a Cult. A show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm your host Amanda Montel, author of books including cultish and the Age of Magical

Overthinking. And I'm Reese Oliver, your co-host and Sounds Like a Colts resident Rhetoric Scholar. Every week on this show, we discuss a different fanatical fringe group or guru from the cultural zeitgeist, from cruise ships to Christian pop music. Today, we're tuning in to the cult of Bravo-Holics. Intense superfans of the reality TV network Bravo, some of whom are directly blessed in various ways by the channel itself. Get ready to throw some punches. Or some wine glasses? To try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult. But is it really?

And if so, which of our cult categories does it fall into? Live your life, a watch your back, or a get the fuck out. After all, in 2025, cultishness is whatever you make of it, my darling. And not every culty-looking group these days is going to be equally bad or present itself in equal ways. The point of this show is to analyze all of the different ways in which the culty behaviors show up in our lives, including places you might not think to look. Some of us, or you, maybe, turn on the TV to Gaffa and Chortle at Cults of Wealthy Suburbanites to make us feel a little more normal in comparison, not even noticing the mirror image of cultishness that we create in our devotion to these women. Oh my God. Speaking of cult, I've completely brainwashed you in using words like Chortle and Gaffa.

And what of it? No, I'm like proud of it. It's just speaking of creating people in your image. No, I love that. These are underutilized synonyms for laugh. And I'm glad to you hear that the gospel is spreading. I don't know if you discussed this with Chelsea, but there was a time in which you could buy an American girl doll for your American girl doll.

What? Yeah, like a mini one for your doll. They're taking notes from Russian nesting dolls. It's a doll within a doll within a doll. Yes. Just like cults can be within cults. within cults within cults. Exactly.

I was just meaning that to say, like, I think that if you're an American girl doll, I am your American girl doll, I am your American girl doll. I just, I really look forward to being your American girl. Someone analyzed that. That's not us. Amanda, do you have a favorite Bravo show? Could you name a Bravo show? Oh, yeah.

Well, okay, Reese and I, we've got to be honest. We're not Bravo-Holics, okay? We're not Bravo TV watchers. It's not our drug of choice. But we wanted to cover the topic because it's been requested so consistently over the years. And don't worry because we do have an expert coming in who is going to teach us and expose us to all of the ins and outs of this particular reality TV cult followed franchise. Now, I have seen Bravo shows. I remember when the Real Housewives of New York premiered because the original was the Real Housewives of Orange County.

which I think was trying to be like the reality show version of Desperate Housewives. Because, you know, it was the year 2006, the year of our Lord and Savior. And that was a reality TV boom in terms of like the sort of soapy versions of reality TV, like the hills, Laguna Beach, not to be confused with like the survivor sort of like competition type shows. No. Who wants to be a millionaires of them all. So I wasn't as interested in the Orange County. based drama. Yeah, I like hoarders. I took a brief interest in the Real Housewives of New York City

when I was young, I think because I wanted to move to New York. And it was a reality show about New York, and that didn't really exist yet. So I was just like curious about people who lived there. Oh, it's just like that, I'm sure. Yeah. No, so, but I quickly realized that that was not really what the show was about. It was not as real as the title purported. Let me be very, very clear. I am not above Bravo. It's just not my cup of tea. No, you're lateral to Bravo just somewhere else. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm completely lateral. Like, dance moms is worse. Like, it involves children principally. I am in no way looking down upon the bravo-holics. I admire you all. I admire your community. I feel like it is cultier than other reality shows. I think because the shows are about groups of friends, it's like kind

of in a sex in the city way you want to like identify with the characters, which kind of begets cultishness. 100%. No, it's like such a richer community the way that like there's a cult surrounding Taylor Swift, but there's not necessarily a cult surrounding Sylvanesso. And I wish there were. I would join. I would join. Okay. But I don't know if that music lends itself to such a robust culture because it's not as widely palatable. I mean, I think it should be. But I don't know. Seeing like women in their 40s, 50s and 60s get into these like contrived squabbles was not necessarily for me. And we have. And we have. done an episode of this show like two years ago on the cult of real housewives and we analyzed that particular franchise pretty in depth but we talked a lot about the production and how like the real housewives as public figures interact with the producers as we often do when we analyze reality tv cults on this show but bravo hollics is a unique topic for us to cover because we're not talking about the production side like we did on our recent love island episode we're specifically talking about the fandom that has built up around the many shows that Bravo has from the

Real Housewives to Vanderpump rules. I'm curious to find out the leader of the bravo-holics. I think it might kind of rotate based on what shows the most popular at the time. Cool. So before we get into our guest interview with the one and only Steve, a Bravo historian and the expert behind faces by Bravo. If you know, you know, and if you don't, don't worry, you will. Let's get into like a little bit of history behind this cult followed network and fandom, because it's important to set the stage. Indeed. So, picture this. It's 1980 and Bravo launches to air fine art content, serious films, and high artistic media. Flash forward, just a couple years, and NBC bought the network in 2002 for a whopping $1.25 billion, and then merged it

in 2004, a year after my birth, with Vivendi Universal Entertainment to form the conglomerate NBC Universal. In 2003, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy aired. Any of us watch Queer Eye Today? I watched Queer Eye. I love Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, and I would watch it when I was a kid. My parents had a TV in their room and I would like go in their bedroom and lock the door and watch Queer Eye when I was like, 11. And that's the essence of Bravo. It's, oh my God, I forgot that shit was on Bravo. Yeah. And it's also like, I should be ashamed of watching this. But Queer Eye was not shameful. It's so funny that I like, I guess I didn't want my parents to know when I was 11 that I knew what being gay was or something like that, even though like they were completely accepting of gay people.

It still feels kind of taboo. Yeah, it was still taboo. And I didn't want them to know, Or maybe as a bisexual person, I'm still trying to, like, unpack what the signs were early on. Loved Queer Eye, writing that down. Loved Queer Eye and was weirdly embarrassed by that. This is kind of just a fun tidbit, but Reuters in 2008 ranked Bravo as being the most gay-friendly company. Bravo has always had a reputation of being for the girls and the gays. And Queer Eye for the Straight Guy set a real precedent over at Bravo for very successful reality shows. with lots of future spinoffs, such as Project Runway, also popular million-dollar listing,

and of course, the Real Housewives of Orange County. So with all of these successes, it was kind of clear that the museum-y, you talk over it, kind of artsy stuff, was not really going to fly for the future of this network. And they were pivoting to reality and leaning in hard, baby. And this incurs a whole slew of spinoffs. Yes. And I think that the spinoffs are part of why BravoHolics have become so much more of a cult fandom than other TV fandoms. There's just a higher and higher barrier to entry for fans.

I could never just like tune into Vanderpump rules season six and have any fucking idea what's going on because I don't have the exposition. I don't know the world. I don't know the characters. It's like in order to enjoy spinoff after spin off after spin off after spin off. You have to, like, sacrifice your life to the world of this network. No, you for sure do. And that's the thing, though, is the spin-offs themselves are still so salacious and bravo-y that you're watching them.

And if you have not seen all of the previous seasons of Housewives at Lisa Vanderpump is on, but you're watching a really crazy fight in the middle of Vanderpump rules. Yeah, you're probably going to want to go back, join the cult from the beginning and catch up on all your lore until here. So they've really got a good little machine going. Yeah, it's like, what kind of accolite are you if you've only read, revelations. You got to go back and read the story of Genesis. Come on. We know fake fans. There's such a fascinating codependence between the production, the cast, and the fans in Bravo

World that I kind of don't see in any other reality TV fandom or cult that we've covered before. It is kind of crazy that the level of community bonding and success of the followers is dependent upon the lives of the cult leaders essentially falling apart on camera. The bravaholics home was need the women of Bravo to be dysfunctional in order for the cult to, like, thrive. It's like the inverse of the normal, I feel. Yes, it is. It actually is. In a traditional cult hierarchy, there's a person at the top who's creating chaos beneath so that they can remain in unchecked power. Here, it's just... They're offering themselves up for us to project all of our issues onto their issues. It's a prolapsed butthole of power dynamics is what it is. It is. And I feel like

Bravo really created a genre of, I guess you could say, hot mess content that has led to things like there's this influencer named Tara's World. I could talk a lot about Tara's World. But her most recent blip is that she was pretending to have an alcohol problem and crash out, like pass out in her front yard and like do all this really crazy like stuff, like puking. She would film herself doing it, go live, like act super crazy. Like I'm cheating on my boyfriend. Look at me. And then she would also like the next day upload videos being like, yeah, that's all fake. And my manager's like when I do that. And it was my idea because I'm losing money and I can't afford my influencer house anymore.

So I'm needing to invent these shenanigans. But I don't like doing it. It'll be interesting to analyze the worst case scenarios of this cult when we finally get there just to see how it's affected broader society. Because I really think Donald Trump has something to do with this. It is the outrage economy and it is the reality TV. to Overlord Pipeline. Again, the logic is backwards.

It's like if you want power, act the worst on TV. It's their fault. And at this point, it has brought out the worst in Bravo fans who are next level. Think Hallmark, but drunk. And not on eggnog, but on whispering Angel Rose. I mean, there is an IRL compound for the Bravo tent revival in the form of BravoCon. There's merch. There are rituals.

There's language. and we're going to get all the way into the nooks and crannies of this cult thanks to someone who's a member of it and yet was not afraid to spill the true tea. And that individual is today's special guest, Stephen, the Bravo-Holic behind the cult-followed account, faces by Bravo. Let's get into it. We put the care in taking care of business, your business to be exact. Our agents take the time to understand your company, so you get the right coverage at the right price.

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which includes rush processing. Adam and Eve offers discrete shipping, just in case you live with your mom. But actually, now that I'm saying that, your mom should probably go to Adam and Eve.com, too. Regardless, your privacy is a priority. And so is your wallet. because shipping is 100% free, and that includes brush processing. Doesn't matter what you buy or how much you spend, your package will be delivered to you fast and free. Do not wait. A superior time in your intimate life is a mere click away.

Just go to Adameneve.com right now and select any one item. It could be an adventurous new toy or anything you desire. Just enter code Slack, S-L-A-C at checkout. That's SlackS-L-L-A-C at Adam and Eve.com. This is an exclusive offer specific to this podcast, so be sure to use the code Slack to get your discount, 100% free shipping, and get it with fast rush processing. Code Slack. Steve, Stephen, King Prince, and the Faces of Bravo, welcome to Sounds Like a Cult. It is an honor to be here with you ladies.

I cannot wait to talk all things, Bravo, with you guys. Before we started recording, we heard that you were, A, a fan of the pod, so thank you. What is your least favorite and most favorite episode you've heard so far? The least favorite. I want the full spectrum of feedback. I don't have a least favorite, I will say that. I'm obsessed with when your dad came on. That was one of my favorites.

Oh, my God, you're so nice. Well, one of the reasons why Stephen is such an angel is because when you're not faces by Bravo, which is like your moonlighting alter ego, you're literally a nurse. Faving lives. That's actually how Faces by Bravo came to be is because I needed a hobby and bottomless brunch just was not sufficing as my only hobby. So Bravo was the thing that I loved and I needed a place to talk about all my thoughts. You know, we've had so many requests over the years to do the cult of nursing slash nurses.

Okay, I was going to suggest that. it is something that has not talked about enough. If you get a whole bunch of nurses together, it's so culty. I know, it's scary. I mean, Reese and I have talked about this. Nurses are like hot and sweet, but like bitchy, I think. They can party like no other, too. Yeah, exactly.

It's like you've got to have a raunchy outlet. And for many nurses, that's literally just bottomless brunch. And you found something even more deranged to invest your soul into. And speaking of that, could you actually? introduce your relationship to Bravo and specifically what got you into the cult of bravo-holics in the role that you're in specifically? So like I was saying before, as a nurse, we work crazy hours. So being off during the week when everyone else is working, you know, I was just like,

I need a hobby. And one of the things that me and my friends talked about all the time was Bravo. There was all these Facebook groups and stuff dedicated to Brow. Bravo. There were a couple like Instagrams and stuff early on and I created my Instagram account never thinking anything would come out of it. It was just really a place to put my posts and thoughts out and it just kind of blew up in 2018. And it was just growing super fast. And then the relationship as far as becoming a Bravo Holic technically was the network then started reaching out. I was invited to go co-host the Bravo Daily Diff.

which was their podcast in the past. And they did like a profile thing on me on their social. That's kind of how my relationship with Bravo started. Oh my God. How did it feel to be blessed by the overlords? Right. I mean, it was incredible. I was also scared at first because I was like, when they're reaching out,

I'm like, are you trying to shut down my account? Because there was like an era where not Bravo, but like VH1 and whoever's under that umbrella, they were shutting down accounts because people were posting like clips that technically would be copyright or something. But it was stuff that was on their website and it was free promo. I don't know why they would shut that down. But they did.

So I was like, oh my gosh, is Bravo going to shut it down? But no, they were awesome and they've been awesome to me. So I appreciate it. When you're good to mama, mama's good to you. Okay. So it sounds like there is a really special and kind of idiosyncratic relationship. between a bravo-holic and the network. There's something a little bit deeper there

than the connection that just a normal run-of-the-mill reality TV fan might have with another network. Can you kind of give us a rough definition of bravo-holic and tell us what separates a deep-died bravaholic from the run-of-the-mill reality TV viewer? A bravoholic, by definition, with the network. There is a group that is considered the braboholics, and then there is also just the bravoholic consumer.

but the smaller group is the creator space. So, like, they invite BravoHolics to go to BravoCon to host panels. There was a couple times they did these events at 30 Rock where we got to go and speak with production, speak with cast members of different shows. What I will say is I think Bravo really leaned into the creator space rather than pushing it away. And we as creators are able to say things that maybe,

a network couldn't. Like, we're able to give our unfiltered opinions on things without consequences essentially for them. Oh, my God, but also, like, your neck is on the line because if you say something that fans don't like, whoa. Yeah. Well, the other culty piece of it, like, the tree huggers is an example of, like, Teresa Judice fans. They are called the tree huggers and stuff. Jersey is notorious for being like, if you have something to say against Teresa, they will come after you. Okay, Stephen, you got to back up because there are people tuning into this episode who do not know what you're talking about. Oh, you're, exactly.

Yeah, I need to back up. You're right, you're right. Who is Teresa? What is Jersey? Like, what are you? Where are we? I literally forget that people don't know what Real Housewives is at some time. So Real Housewives, of course, you have all your different franchises.

your New Jersey, your New York, Atlanta, Potomac, et cetera. Within each franchise, you, of course, have your stars. And Real Housewives of New Jersey is very contentious in the fandom. Teresa Judice is a main housewife, has been a main housewife since the beginning. But she's very controversial. But the people that ride for her, the fans of her, they are called the tree huggers. And online, anytime anyone has any sort of criticism whatsoever, they will power. kind of like the beehive, you know, or like the barbs. It's very similar vibes. Just like

really, really niche. Swarming. Yes. Extremely niche. Yeah. Okay. So I didn't even realize this, that Bravo Holics is a technical term that the network will bequeath upon its high priests, if you will. And if the network is God and you are the prophets, God is speaking. through you. And that's really interesting. But our general fans say, like, I'm sure you have people who are fans of you in addition to fans of whatever Bravo shows they like to watch. Are those people allowed to identify as bravo-holics? Oh, yes. Everyone that is like hardcore Bravo fans or viewers are bravo-holics. But I wanted to differentiate there is also a smaller subset that the network initially used that term with.

Like their own curated media sphere surrounding the show. It's like a bubble of protection from the general public, very culty. Yes, it's true. You're like their shield. Yeah, I guess so because like, again, we're able to comment and say things because we're a viewer. We're not tied to the network. Of course, there's lines you can't cross.

It still is the network and all of that. They're not going to support people going ham on them. but they did decide to lean more into giving creators that voice and amplifying their voices rather than trying to shut it down. Okay, so this makes me want to ask this question because cults tend to have a certain hierarchy, whether it's spoken or unspoken, and you're kind of defining it already. There's the network, there are the creator bravoholics, and then there are the fans. But could you get more granular about the power hierarchy in this fan cult?

are there even ranks of power within the fandom? Like, do you get more street cred the more shows you know about? So this is why I really wanted to bring this up on this pod is because not that there is a like official hierarchy thing, but there's a perceived, I feel like hierarchy. Early on, you know, there was just a few Instagram accounts and creator accounts or whatever. And then it, especially during the pandemic, it blew up. everybody started creating and I feel like at times some of people took it so seriously that they were like competing to be seen to be like the best and hopefully being noticed by either

the talent or the network or anything like thinking you know oh if I get to this many followers maybe I'll get this access or something like that so I think there was always a perceived hierarchy if I get this big I'll get this as a reward if that makes sense. completely. What were people doing in order to get more power and what were they after? Like, what would make them feel spiritually satisfied? What I had heard at one point was there was like a spreadsheet allegedly keeping track of who was growing and how many followers and all of that stuff. I think the goal to that group of people was going to BravoCon through the network or being able to go be a guest and watch what happens live,

or being in that bravo-holic subset. Reis and I were discussing this earlier, but like, because Bravo has this reputation for being a network for the girls and the gays, these are marginalized folks, you know, and, like, they're not the most marginalized folks in the entire world. But, like, they are maybe people who would not feel as at home in, like, their traditional home church.

But they're still after that, type of ritual and acceptance and belonging in community. And Bravo, the network and this culture does provide that in a way without necessarily there being like a theology. But maybe there is. Some people go to church on Sunday. I watch Real Housewives of Potomac. Slap that in a cursive font on a sign in the Hobby Lobby. I am purchasing it. I'm slamming down my loyalty card. I feel like if you're a bravoholic, I can say, a quote that is in the Bravo sphere, and that's a language. Like, my ex and I, he would come to events with me begrudgingly, but like he would come and he would be like, I literally don't know

what you guys are talking about. It's like a different language. It's like hearing two Scientologists talk in the wild. Yes, yes. I was just going to ask if your bravaholic dialect shifts based on where you're from or like which housewives are your primary housewives. For sure, it's like Obviously, if they don't watch certain franchises, they may not know some of them. However, there are some like staples that even if you don't watch that franchise, you would probably know it. Can you give us an example sentence? Absolutely.

She by Shiree, first of all. Spring summer, joggers. That is something everyone would know. And that sounds like nothing to you right now. What are you saying? Nothing. Yeah, exactly. Shiree in her first or second season, she was talking about Stargars.

starting her clothing line called She by Shiree. Season of what? Oh, Real Housewives of Atlanta. Sorry. We're too many layers deep. We're too far in. I'm so sorry. It's just I need education.

Yes. And the running joke for the longest time was she never had the clothing line come to fruition. And then at a reunion, I think it was season 10. Andy asked her, like, what's up with She by Shiree? and she just answered joggers coming spring, summer, September. Like, it just was so off the cuff and random, but it was so funny how it was done. And so, like, people would know that.

Or Ramona up here, turtle time. What does that mean? Turtle time is when they went season three to Scary Island of Real Housewives of New York. And when they were dancing, Ramona said, let's go do turtle time. And she puts a wine glass on her head and starts dancing. Turtle time.

Turtle time. Understood. Okay, so I completely understand. I love this. A, it's so fun to have access to an exclusive lingo. I don't know how your ex could resist. I would immediately want to understand. Give me the cheat sheet.

Yeah, exactly. Because, well, it divides people into insiders and outsiders, which is fun. Everybody loves to be on the inside of an exclusive group. But it also just, like, feels so good to be seen. It's like, we watch these shows alone in our house. now we're together and we're speaking this lingo or we're on a forum or we're in comments and we're speaking this language together. And it's connection. And then it's also this rallying cry. Like I can imagine if bravo-holics want to pop off together, they can just shout turtle time

from the rafters. And that's a way to communicate to other bravaholics that you want to participate in a certain ritual. And I love that. And at BravoCon, when you get that many bravolics together at one space, it is insane. And it's so funny, like, you are in your own Bravo World. Bravo World. Okay. And can you paint the picture for us of what this Bravo world consists of? What is the core value system, mission or feeling that can unite all of these kind of

disparate shows into the true umbrella of Bravo? Like, what is the glue holding them all together? I have to say the women, the women of the real housewives and the talent, they are the glue to all of it. I think some people would initially say Andy Cohen, but I think it's the women. I think the women love them or hate them. We're talking about them. They bring us together.

We have an opinion. They may differ and we'll probably spat over it. But that's what brings us all together is the lives of these women that we're watching on screen. And like as sort of saints in the religion of Bravo, what values do these women establish for the fandom? What do you think people are looking to them for? Is it actually a value system or is it more of just an aesthetic or a permission to act a certain way? Like, why do they love them so much? That's the thing is like it's so different because there's people that are looking to aspirations,

but that's not usually what I'm looking for. I'm looking for hilarious and drama. I want to see conflict and resolution. And that's what most of the fandom does. We want to see the conflict. but I don't want you to drag this on forever. Like, we want to see resolution. There will be some people that are, like,

looking for the aspirational lifestyle. Like, Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, they honestly can have, like, a lackluster season, but the real estate porn of it all, and, like, the luxury and all of that really lets them kind of get away with, like, having less going on, if that makes sense. So there's that piece of it.

But ultimately, for me, I need my girls to be funny. And I need some drama and some resolution. So your favorite franchise is Potomac or Atlanta? It's Salt Lake City these days. Oh, Salt Lake City. Cool. And do you think that people whose favorite franchise is Beverly Hills versus New York versus Potomac versus Salt Lake City, can you clock them at BravoCon? Or you're like, oh, for sure, like the cafeteria and mean girls.

Don't hang out with them. Yes. In a way, you can clock somebody based off of who some of their fans. favorite housewives are. So like, I hate to generalize, but like the middle America, more red leading, they're going to love your Orange County a lot more. And maybe would say, oh, I don't watch Atlanta or Potomac. And that is a red flag for me if you don't watch those two specifically. Oh, it's a dog whistle. That's a dog whistle to me. And like, oh, that's interesting. Why don't you watch those two specific housewives franchises? Wow. Okay. But can you still connect with Bravo Holic's

you get the feeling might be politically divergent from you? Yes. Honestly, yes. I guess if we're talking straight housewives, for sure. Just keep it to the content here. But as, well, we talk about this on the show all the time, like as culture gets more polarized and extreme and culty, that ends up bleeding into like literally something as lighthearted as reality TV fandom, everybody's just so high temperature. There was, I mean, huge scandal in Orange County with Kelly Dodd and everything. She ended up marrying like a previous Fox News host and she went full right wing and ended up being so polarizing that she lost her job as a housewife just because she just went off the deep end in a lot of ways.

There's a likeability threshold that like you can be as messy as you want, but you still have to, we have to find something to relate to within you. Get no frills delivered. Shop the same in-store prices online and enjoy unlimited delivery with PC Express Pass. Get your first year for $2.50 a month. Learn more at p.c.express.ca. Famous Amos. It's a name that is synonymous with chocolate chip cookies. He's also my dad. I'm in a supermarket. I'm in convenience stores. I'm in department stores. That's what makes Amos famous famous.

Wally Famous Amos. He opened the first. ever chocolate chip cookie store 50 years ago. When he passed away last year, I set out to understand how he became one of the most famous black men in America. I remember dad on the cover of Time magazine. The headline was the hot new rich, while also leaving his life and our family in chaos. What did you think when I first told you? I was thinking of doing a podcast about our family. How much collateral damage is it going to cost? From Vanity Fair, I'm Sarah Amos. And this is Tough Cookie, the Wally Famous Amos story. Available wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, that leads me to

want to ask, like, who are the cult leaders here? Because you mentioned Andy Cohen. He seems to be like the cult leader of Bravo, the Network. And for those who don't know, what's his exact title? Who is this man? He used to be prior to being talent, he was like head of programming, but now he's just an executive producer for all of the Housewives shows. And he's on Watch What Happens Live and executive producer for that as well. But it seems like for Bravo Holics, the hierarchy of like cult leader, inner circle, whatever, might actually be a little bit different. So could you talk about who has the most power and influence over fans? Oh, so if I, like, would say a hierarchy in the bravo-holic creator space, like, I think of, like, a Danny Pellegrino. He is, like, a top podcaster. His podcast is everything iconic. The bitch-sash girls, Casey Wilson, and then in the creator space, as far as, like, on Instagram and Twitter and all of that, Bravo by Betches, Bravo Betches, Bravo Betch, Bravo Astoria. That's to Bravo. There's a lot of Bravo creators that have a ton of followers and people engage with them a ton.

And I think one of the goals for some creators is proximity to some of their favorite people that they watch on television. You know, if you post something and you get in a reaction from one of the housewives or one of the talent, that's something that's going to drive people to keep creating, I feel like. And then there's also getting some inside tea and all of that. So, like, there was a whole scandal this past year where a couple creators, I guess, were planting things online so that two of the housewives could talk about it on the show. It was crazy. Scandalous. They want to be recognized. They want God to answer their prayer.

Yeah. That's really what it is. Yeah. Well, so all these things that were being talked about on the show, they filmed a whole season. And then the person that was a creator, she came forward. forward right when it was premiering, airing out what she had done, turned on the housewife she was working with and basically aired out all of that. And there was like one of the housewives purchased her kid, a stroller or something. It was so crazy. They were having meetings together

sort of how to get certain things out. It's a very coordinated operation between the people that the shows are about and the people making supposedly nonpartisan content. about said show. This is so political. Yes. And it really goes to show that fans sometimes worship their favorite celebrities, artists, reality TV stars on the level of a god. But the difference is that if you try hard enough, one of these housewives might enter your life more than Taylor Swift. You know, like these housewives like need these influencers. And if you worship them for some reason, You actually can get that response. It really says something about the time that we're living in, that religious worship has

extended to IRL media figures. We're living in a loneliness epidemic, I guess. And like, there's a paucity of community connection right now. So in becoming a bravo-holic, like, clearly there's a very large community that it brings to you. And a lot of it is about your engagement with the show. But what does being a bravo-holic do for one's? internal development.

Like, what does it mean to one sense of identity and how does it change someone for better or worse to gaze at the well of truth and see the braboholic within? Well, I can speak from my experience as far as like, I actually have this past year taken a step back from it. I always told myself, if it ever became a chore or if I was ever just too overwhelmed or busy, I'm going to step back and just take a break. And I can always come back to it if I want to. which that's kind of what I'm doing right now.

But one thing for me was it did provide source of entertainment for me. Again, these women, the people that are on my screens that I've loved watching, now I'm interacting with them or going to events with them. It was a whole other level of enjoying the content, if that makes sense. Like, because it's actually being able to engage with them either in real life or at Bravo events and everything. And also it was exciting to, you know, be able to put out things that made people laugh.

That was the other thing. Like, I made a lot of memes and people loved it. We did March Madness-style brackets, ranking different categories. That was super fun. It was really great until I just kind of burnt out a little bit. You know, I ended, I did a podcast for a couple seasons. That was fun.

But working full time and then trying to balance romantic life, my, you know, social life, everything, it just, I needed a break. But it's been such a fun ride. I never would have thought that I'd be talking with Sonia Morgan or hosting her show with her on the road a couple times. Opportunities like that are hosting an episode of the Bravo Daily Dish. Like, I'm a nurse. I didn't do anything in communications, PR, nothing. And these opportunities came to me because of just making silly memes. It is dumbfounding to me that's, there are these many opportunities for a Bravo fan. It's so immersive. It's a world. And that is really cool. And I mean, I've met some artists and have gotten to like be in community with some

people that I really admire, like because they made movies that I loved or whatever. And it really does feel super validating. It really does make you feel like you're bathing under their halo, you know, and that feels good. It feels like, oh, I'm doing something right in life that I loved to this thing and I was noticed for it. This thing loves me back. Yeah. And that can be really addictive. It sounds like you were able to kind of take a step back and had like a lot of self

awareness around like what you needed in your own life. But do you think that there are other people out there who would feel like they were losing a lot if they took a step back? There were probably times where I wanted to step back. But the punishment of Instagram, if you take like a day off, the algorithm loses you. it's like you get punished for taking time off of the app. So I'd always like be mad and be like, oh, I didn't post today. Now it's going to take a while to get back on the rhythm or something.

It is addictive. I will say, like, even though I did take a step back, it's totally addictive. You're getting validation on funny things you're posting or inside tea or anything like that. It's easy to get lost in the sauce. And I would say, like, for instance, somebody doing the thing with the Real Housewives of New Jersey where they were conspiring to get stuff onto the show behind the scenes during filming. And then she clearly had a moment where she was like, I don't like what I just did. And I think that's a moment of, oh, God, what did I just do?

You know, and baby had like a moment of reflection. That was crazy. So people do get lost in it. Yeah. I mean, compromising values and exit costs are both culty red flags. that we discuss frequently on the show. It's interesting, too, because I guess in this conversation, we're, like, struggling to identify one single cult leader.

And some people think, oh, for something to be a cult, it has to have one leader. But in the digital age and in this media landscape, that isn't exactly true. Like, maybe Lisa Vanderpump is partially a leader, but to some people, it's Teresa. And to some people, it's a certain podcast host. And then for some people, it's the algorithm,

them once again is who keeps them in. So all of these things are working together to keep this cult intact. And again, like thinking of the times where I guess there were people like, if I reach this level of followers or whatever, that means I'll hopefully get to go to BravoCon or something like that, a perceived level of what they need to be at to get certain things from the network, even though that's not how it was done. It's just like, that's what they were thinking it would be, I guess. Yes. I actually have a question about that. I want you to tell us some of the most zealous behaviors or the cultiest conflicts that you've seen arise amongst bravo-holics, maybe like defending their fave or trying to prove

their status as the ultimate fan deserving of Father Bravo's love. What's some of the craziest shit you've seen? There can be infighting on like people stealing content or something. You'll see people battling about like, this person stole that from me. Certain creators, they'll say, you know, like, oh, I posted that months ago or I just posted that like the other day and someone else did. I try to think about it as like, we're all watching the same stuff. Yes,

there can be times where we're thinking the same thing, but I'm sure there are people that are out there like copying and not crediting others and they get very upset, obviously, rightfully so, about it. Do you remember the app clubhouse? They don't think so.

Enlighten us? During the pandemic, it was huge. Someone created a big Bravo one. and you would go in and it would be these discussion rooms to talk about the episodes with all these random fans of the show. And even within that space, it got super competitive of who was hosting a room, who was going to be able to be the leader of that discussion of certain shows. It almost bled into, we're watching these shows filled with drama,

and they're forgetting that we are not on these shows. It's like they're creating their own drama in a sense. It sounds like they want to be part of it. And that's kind of what I think we were trying to talk about earlier is like what effect or like what standard do these shows set for the fans? And it's like the standard is drama. We're maximizing for entertainment, mess, conflict, and hopefully resolution. But it's like if that's what you're seeing, that's what you're going to want to recreate in your life. Like that's the value system.

I've seen it happen within the creator space. just like friendships take a turn and it's crazy how it can happen. It's like it bleeds into their own real lives. But no one's on a show. That's the thing. Can you talk about the costs financial and otherwise of being in the Bravo Holic cult? Well, as a creator, obviously started investing in equipment for that and then going to events, you know, like BravoCon, a ticket for someone to go VIP, I think it's like $1,500.

just for the ticket for the weekend. Whoa, that's so expensive. Right? Yeah, it's a lot of money. And that's for the VIP ticket. And they sell out in like 30 seconds. It's insane. Then anytime you're invited to something,

if you're not in that town that it's being hosted and you know, you've got to travel to it. What about cost of your time? If you're watching all the different franchises and each one's on a different day of the week is your whole social life toast. There's tons of times where I feel like it always happens in the fall. But there was a time where all of the shows are on essentially overlapping at once because some are coming off and some are coming on. And there's like this one week that always happens in like the fall where it's a couple shows on per night where I'm like, I'm seated for all of them.

And then at the same time as a creator, you're looking for little moments that you can use to create your content for your Instagram, your Twitter, whatever. So then I realized there were times where I was so focused on that and trying to come up with my stuff that I was missing some of the things, you know? Ooh, this is so interesting because like obviously Reese and then our other co-host, Chelsea and I all tune in to shows that have like cult themes or that might be right for an episode of this show with that lens in mind and that might cause us like not to enjoy it as much or whatever just because we're like bringing our analytical lens to it. But the thing that's cultier about the Bravo-Holic creator-show relationship is that like, if Bravo went away, your account would go away. Right. So like, you're just like in this codependent relationship with Bravo. It's so true.

Whereas like, I'm just thinking now about like all these TV show reaction podcasts that I love and that we've interviewed on the show like the Gilmore Girls podcast Gilmore to say and whatever. And I'm just like, damn, we're lucky that like if anyone given cult when I'm, a way we could still have a podcast. Right. Well, yeah, there's like some people that I know, like, I feel like they've changed their Instagram handles. They would have something with Bravo in it. And then eventually they change it to something where it's not in it. So they could survive after Bravo if it wasn't there. But because that's that's so true. Like, you're really tied to one niche area. And they want you to be. Okay, we have one more question. And then we want to play a very

brief game. Our final question, what do you think is the single most detrimental thing to come of the bravaholic fandom? Is there like a worst case scenario or a particular scandal that comes to mind? I feel like no one has died. Lawsuits, though. I mean, to me, I think the thing that I've been talking about with the New Jersey thing was the most scandalous thing that we've seen with a creator. Things played out on the show because of this whole plan concocted. They came. They came can't talk about something if it's not out there. So they relied on these people to put these things out there so that the cast members could then talk about it and bring it up. And it was things that were harmful to another housewife's husband. So it's one thing if something is like

out there, they sign up, it is fair game. But to orchestrate getting it out there using outside people, that's a lot. It's messed up. Nefarious. Mm-hmm. I mean, New Royal Housewives of New Jersey was already in a really, like, hard place with casting stuff anyway. But they've been put on pause for a long time now. I'm not saying it had to do exactly with that, but that definitely played a role. It didn't help it. That's for sure. Whoa, whoa, whoa.

It sabotaged the cult that they claim to love so much. You chappled it. Fascinating. So now we're going to transition to playing a classic sounds like a cult game. It's called What's Caltier? We're going to read you a list of cults that we've covered on the show prior to compare to Braboholics, and you'll simply say, which in your opinion is cultier. I'm ready. Swifties or bravoholics? Ooh, I think they're equal. Damn. Which is wild. I know. I think they're equal. I wouldn't say one's higher than the

other. Wow. What's cultier? Love Island fans or bravoholics? Braboholics. Agree. You've been here way longer. Elon Musk Bros. Or bravoholics? Bravoholics. Oh my God. Wow. That's all the converting. Deep. Wow. What's called your Bachelor fans or Bravo holics? Ooh. I think I would, I would, I think that, uh, bravo, bravo. While we watched that whole mental journey. Intense. I think it's Bravo. They're similar. but I would say Bravo's just a little more culty. That's fair. Lighter grip.

All right. Potterheads or bravoholics? Bravaholics. Yeah. Well, they seem a little more violent. Yeah. Or maybe I just don't know. Like, I like Harry Potter, but I haven't seen the Potter heads how, are they like insane?

The girls don't. The girls get down. Well, I think you are the company you keep. I think your take is accurate. Last one, just for you, what's cultier? Bravo-Holics or nurses. Oh, nurses. Boom.

T.T. All right. Well, stick around for that future episode. Steve, thank you so much for joining this episode. You are iconic for this. If people want to keep up with you and your little cult, where can they do that? At Faces by Bravo on Instagram and Twitter and TikTok and all of those things. And at your local Los Angeles emergency room.

I'm just kidding. Hopefully not. Okay, Reese, out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back, and get the fuck out. What do you think the cult of bravo-holics falls into? I think it's a live-your-life. Songs you're not living the lives of the women you're watching. Okay, it's funny you say that because I had a thought. You know how Christians just want to be more godly, if you will, in their daily lives? When some of your gods, saints, whatever these Bravo cast members are to you, are slapping each other in the face, getting into trouble with the law and going to jail, real housewives including Jen Shah, Teresa and Joe Judice. I hope I'm pronouncing that, right? Judice. Sorry, Judice. I was. pronouncing it like. You were so Italian. I'm dead. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry I was reading it. I was for sounding

it out. Well, the funny thing is the word Judy Che in Italian, like, it means judge. That's a hilarious. Anyway, and others have encountered legal problems from DUIs to assault to tax fraud. And when your God of sorts is doing shit like that, it's actually no wonder that some of the bravo-holics that our guest described, are doing shady-ass motherfucking shit. Like, they're compromising their former values and selves in order to reflect the cult leaders that they're seeing. And that is a classic cult red flag as old as time. I even feel like you can go into it, like, I'm watching this from an analytical standpoint,

from like a what not to do, how not to behave standpoint. And then if you get sucked into the cult a little too hard, if you attend one too many cons, watch one too many spinoffs, you're going to be. taking sides in that fight and condoning that behavior before you know it. It's true. I also just wanted to share a little culty fun fact to class. I'm sure a lot of you know, but Jen Shaw, Elizabeth Holmes, and Galane Maxwell are all in the same women's prison right now. Now, that's a cold control effecta. Can they like host a brunch? Can they host a press event? Can we go like do an episode of Slack with all three of them on? Yes. And I can already hear the culties saying don't platform them. And I want to talk

about this term platforming as a verb for a second. It's my favorite technique of cult language to turn a noun into a verb, like in corporate speak when they talk about sunseting. Sorry, sunset is a noun. When you start using it as a verb, it sounds like a culty euphemism. When we say stop platforming X, Y, and Z, but really we're just talking to them in order to scrutinize or criticize them, that is not promoting them. And I just want to say that. Use nuance. listen to the tone of the interviews. Would you rather there be no critical media at all, people? Yeah. Like, we could just tell you what you want to hear all the time. And we'd probably have a more successful show. God's because what I was going to say is if we condone everything

we talked about, we would have nothing to talk about. We would have no show. We would have no podcast. Nobody would have any, any media. Literally. So that was just like a quick rant for a second. And I'm not even that bothered by people saying that. I just, I don't know why that came over me. It's the housewife's energy. It's the Bravo. It is. It is. Oh, my God.

I feel the power within me to get extensions. Becoming that cat eating the salad meme. Okay. So overall, I agree that it's mostly a live your life, but with like some watch your back sprinkled into the wine. It's a watch your back spiked. So I'm glad we discussed that. Why am I suddenly scared to put out this episode because Bravo Holics are so intense? Just be sweet to us.

I feel like as intense as they are. They also have to have some level of self-awareness that the shit they like is kind of whack. Like, I feel like they can say that. Kind of absurd, right? Like, come on. Yeah. And you can love it and know that. You should love it and know that.

Oh, and if you love it and know it, then it's a live your life. There we go. Cool. Self-awareness is the key. Amazing. Well, that is our show. Thank you so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week.

But in the meantime, stay culty. But not too, coldy. Sounds like a cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the Pod Cabin. This episode was hosted by Amanda Montel and Reese Oliver. This episode was produced by Reese Oliver. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave

five stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish, The Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality, and Wordslet, a feminist guide to taking back the English language. Thanks as well to our network studio 71. And be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse at Sounds Like a Cult pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult.