Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Burning Man

Episode Date: September 5, 2023

Strap on your steampunk lewks and get ready to blast off to the dusty, glittery, and undeniably culty alternate universe that is Burning Man—an event explicitly inspired by the New Age fringe religions of the 1970s. ~Join us~ for Amanda and Isa's lol-worthy chat with Em and Christine, hosts of the paranormal-true crime podcast And That's Why We Drink. We're unpacking the countercultural carnival's eccentric (sometimes deadly) rituals, us vs. them dynamics, major controversies, and undeniable allure. What do youuuu think is the cultiest thing about Burning Man?? And do you think it's a Live Your Life, a Watch Your Back, or a GTFO-level cult? Click here to get tickets to Isa's NYC comedy show September 22nd or to tell her where to perform next!  To check out Amanda's new book, The Age of Magical Overthinking, click here! Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod @isaamedinaa @amanda_montell Thank you to our sponsors! Dipsea is offering our listeners a 30 day free trial when you go to dipseastories.com/cult Go to Zocdoc.com/CULT and download the Zocdoc app for FREE.  Go to JULIECARE.CO/CULT to get $10 off your online purchase for a limited time!

New York City, it's Esa here. I am back in town and I'm going to be headlining Union Hall once again on, wait for it, Friday, September 22nd at 7pm. I am so excited to be back in New York. This show is going to be so special, so fun. I'm going to be joined by very special guests and I have a lot of new material. I have a lot to talk about. It's going to be a really funny show. You do not want to miss it. You can get tickets at the link in episode description or at my website, which is isacomedy.com slash shows. That's ISA comedy.com slash shows. And if you're not in New York, you can go to that same website to tell me where to perform next. That's isacomedy.com slash shows babe. And if you are in New York, I will see you at the show September 22. Thank you to our sponsor, Dipsy. Dipsy is an app full of hundreds of short sexy audio

stories designed by women for women for listeners of the show. Dipsy is offering an extended 30 day free trial when you go to DipsyStories.com slash cult. That's 30 days of full access for free when you go to D-I-P-S-E-A stories.com slash cult. DipsyStories.com slash cult. ZockDock is a free app. You can find amazing doctors and book appointments online with thousands of top rated patient-reviewed doctors and specialists. Go to zock.com slash cult and download the ZockDockapp for free. Then find and book a top rated doctor today. That's zoc doc.com slash cult. zok.com slash cult. Thank you to our sponsor Julie.

Julie is an FDA approved morning after pill that helps stop a pregnancy before it starts. Julie is aiming to be the emergency contraception company for the next generation, one of learning and acceptance, not stigma and shame. Right now, Julie is offering our listeners $10 off your online purchase. Go to julicare.co slash cult to get $10 off your online purchase for a limited time. That's julicare.co slash cult.

Or if you need it right away, you can find juliet your nearest CBS target or Walmart today. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like A Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable facts. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. The first time I ever learned what Burning Man was,

I remember thinking it was culty because why can't we all just have like a little teeny tiny bit of Burning Man all the time? Like why can't we all just have a little teeny tiny bit of Burning Man all the time? Like, why can't we just have freedom and release a little bit? Like, rituals to let go of stuff if you're going through. Yeah, really hard time. Or support from people to cuddle, puddle you if you need that right now. Or a safe space to burn your wedding dress if you're like,

I need to let go of this shit. I wonder how many elements of Burning Man it would take if you were to bring element by element into the default world. How many elements until Burning Man itself is kind of a mood point. Like if you, what if we just had radical inclusion? This is Sounds Like a Cult. A show about the modern day cults. We all follow. I'm Issa Medina and I'm a comedian touring all over the country and currently in New York City. I'm Amanda Montel, author of the forthcoming book The Age of Nageical Overthinking. Every week on this show, we discuss a different group or guru that puts the cult in culture,

from Elon Musk to academia to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? And if so, which cult category does it fall into? Live your life? Watch your back or get the fuck out. For our new listeners, a Live Your Life level cult is like a baby cult. Definitely fanatical, but mostly harmless. A watch your back level cult is borderline dangerous, checks off some of the culty boxes, but

isn't totally destructive. And then we have a get the fuck out level cult, which is like QAnon level, Manson vibes, aka Run for Your Life. After all, what classifies a cult is up to interpretation. So today we're finally talking about the almost two obviously Coltie for us to even talk about on the show, but very excited to cover it. Cult of Burning Man. Yes, it is an event that's honestly hard to sum up in one sentence or less.

What even is it? Is it a festival? Is it a city? Is it a piece of performance art? Is it a new religion? Is it an experimental alternative way of life? Or is it just a fun festival where a bunch of spiritually seeking people do a bunch of drugs to try and find a sense of cultural identity? Who knows, but we're gonna chat about it because that's what we do. I know that you are generally a music festival gal, girly, girlina, but

tell the listeners your take on Burning Man, have you been slash would you go hypothetically under what circumstances? Um, I mean, I would go if someone like covered all my costs and I happened to be free and had nothing else to do, you know, maybe for the experience, but no, I have never been because personally I love a music festival. I love one specifically where, you know, I can sing along to lyrics, give me Sizzah, give me bad bunny, even maybe, I don't know, Beyonce Taylor Swift. Call me basic, but I love to sway and sing in a group of like, my folks. Same, same. I mean, this is why there is that conflation between people worshipping Jesus

and people worshipping music, because at celebrity mega churches, they're so good at weaponizing pleasant harmonies and chord progressions. Remember kids, Justin Bieber does not have a direct line to God. Would you like to go to Burning Man? Amanda? Oh, well, I was supposed to go in 2020, except the great, and terrible Panini hit,

and prevented me from going, I actually have a friend who I first met because another mutual friend set us up on a little friend date due to the fact that she runs a cult-themed burning-man camp. Interesting? Interesting. Yeah, I was so intrigued by that. I wanted to investigate it, kind of like Gonzo style, and write about it, but then I didn't get the chance to go. But she dresses everyone up in robes. There are custom tarot cards involved. there are mystery elixirs involved,

it's very much like a consensual, almost kinky experiment with a lot of the classic cult 70s iconography that is so sort of dangerous and spooky, but also very alluring, I really wanted to go, I still would totally go. But let's back up and try our best to talk about what Burning Man even is. Okay. So Burning Man is essentially a music and arts festival. The way they phrase it, it's focused on community, art, self-expression, and self-reliance. It takes place every year for

nine days in the Black Rock Desert of Nevada. The festival is very different from others that are highly sponsored with brandy partnerships. They have none of that because it's a commerce-free zone with an economy that runs off bordering and gifting. The only thing for sale at Burning Man is ice. Isn't that nuts? I actually do respect that Burning Man is clearly trying very earnestly to subvert this sort of

made up rules of everyday society like what is money? What is worth money? But while most things at burning man are quote unquote free, tickets to get there are certainly not. Let's maybe explain a rough summary of the costs here and how difficult these tickets are to get. Yeah, so the initial sale is in the more expensive bracket. It's called funny enough, it's called the FOMO sale. So those initial tickets range from 1500 to 2750. And then later on, they have the OMG sale and it's scheduled for later in the year and those tickets are around 575.

But I guess they're kind of harder to come around. I'm sure there's also like a whole resale market and all of those costs don't even include parking, camping, supplies, bike rental, travel because it does take place in the middle of a desert. So prices to attend can actually range from $1,000 to even $10,000 or more depending on who you are and what you're bringing. You know, the fact that Burning Man is hosted on such a barren slab of desert, but is also so expensive and exclusive to attend, is just a culty juxtaposition that cannot be ignored. So let's dive into a bit of the backstory here. So Brityman started in the mid 1980s in San Francisco, California.

It was created by two dudes named Larry Harvey and Jerry James who originally began with a group of friends. Just getting together in 1986 to burn, you know, very casually, a wooden sculpture of a man on the beach. You know, we've all had those brunches where we're like, oh my god, we should do that. And none of us actually ever get around to it, but I guess Larian David really did commit to the pit. But over the years, Burning Man essentially grew in size

and ambition. In 1990, the event moved to the remote Black Rock desert where it has been held ever since. And it's become so popular that an estimated 80,000 people attended in 2022. Yeah. And the sheer size of the event is actually contributing to some of its hypocrisy because while it claims to be this, you know, environment worshipping event with 80,000 people, the carbon emissions from 2022 were so extreme that a lot of environmentalists were actually protesting against Burning Man. So as the event sort of doubles back on its own very principles every year, it also gets cultier.

Yeah, that's true. Burning Man was blatantly inspired by the sort of culty, new age, new religious movements that cropped up throughout the 60s and 70s. And it almost feels silly to go and name all of the aspects of it that proverbially sound like a cult because it was basically designed that way. But for the purposes of the podcast, Esa hit us with some highlights. So what are they doing at this adult summer camp for self-expression? Participants who call themselves burners

work together to build a temporary city that includes art installations, theme camps, an orgy dome. What a la. They have a list of burning man 10 commandments. They're called the 10 Principles. We love those. Those principles include self-reliance, civic responsibility, a culture of radical inclusion, and the very well-known leave no trace.

So they're trying to protect the environment where the festival is located. On the surface, I love that. I love the way that sounds, but it's like an immediate yellow to oriental red flag kind of situation. Yeah, it's definitely sounding like a non-profit mission statement gone new age. But to me, nothing gives classic cold imagery

more than the titular burning man ritual. Yeah, and I'm excited to talk about it. So for those unaware, the Burning Man event culminates with this burning literally with fire of a massive wooden effigy known as the man. I look forward to the day when it's the woman, burning woman. Okay, now we're talking. Yeah. Anyway, the man is supposed to symbolize impermanence,

and they really do love their fire-based rituals because there's another one called the temple burn where you symbolically set old memories, ablaze to release them. But the man happens to be connected to the most dangerous, mid-Somar-esque cult tragedies to have ever happened at Burning Man, AKA, people literally burning to death

inside of this man. Oh! Indeed, there have been at least two instances, one in 1996 and another in 2017, where people died by running into the flaming man a little well that didn't sound right anyway. Yeah, I mean that really just proves how an extreme sense of communal ritual can make someone do ridiculous Dangerous and sometimes deadly things or maybe it proves that the drugs were a little too strong

But because we haven't been to Burning Man and there's only so much that gets out of those desert walls, we decided to have this chat with two very special guests who know a thing or two about spooky and seemingly supernatural events. We're so excited to welcome M and Christine from the podcast, and that's why we drink to talk about the cult of Burning Man. While we are all admittedly Burning Man virgins and skeptics for various reasons, very different reasons though. It was really, really fun and illuminating to chat with these two, so stick around to find out

if Burning Man is a living life, a watch your back, or get the fuck out. Thanks so much for coming on the podcast. We are so excited to have you on just to start off, can you introduce yourself and your work for our listeners? Oh all our hard work. Yes, so I am Christine Sheifer the true crime half of and that's why we drink podcast And I'm em-shult the paranormal half of the podcast and that's why we drink and we've done some cults

But yours does more fun because you get to get in like the non-true crimey spaces of cult like activities too So I'm really amped for this episode We are famously bad at talking about violence for a cult podcast. Yeah, it's probably a good thing like good personality trait to have Thank you I'm like sort of famously good at talking about true crime and it's not really a great look all the time You know, it's like it's complex. It's some other talents, but it's a red flag on a first date, that's for sure. So as true crime podcasters and seasoned violence

discursors, what do you think are the aspects of Burning Man that make it both haunting but also appealing similar to a cult? I do think if you're comparing it to cults to see how cult-like it is, definitely the language being kind of an in-group thing, all of the rituals and the music and the principles, there's a group thing and a bonding

that nobody else would understand. And if you're being put in places with harsh elements and things like that, I think that alone bonds people. So I think it's a world within itself where if you haven't gone, you just don't know what it's like. Yeah. Cause they even call outside of Burning Man, they call the rest of the world, the default world. Yeah, there's so much terminology going on, like the default world versus the playa, where all the burners follow the 10 principles, which are all phrased with like, sense of sanctimony to them.

There is totally that in group glossary that establishes a sense of cult, like exclusivity and loyalty to an event that I think a lot of people perceive as sacred. And not to mention the isolation, like you are physically away from quote unquote, the default world. Yeah, and you also are not supposed to use your phone.

And so it's just like there's a huge buy-in to be a part of it. But I feel like that's also the allure of like, ooh, let's have some fun. Let's have some fun, let's unplug. I get it too. What do you guys stand, I guess, is what I'd love to know as the experts. Well, I mean, in terms of the sort of us-them dynamics, whose foundation is really laid by the language, I hear a lot of similarities with Heaven's Gate.

I was literally thinking Heaven's Gate like the whole time. Yeah, I mean, aesthetically, there's a lot in common, there's something otherworldly in theme about the two experiences. Of course, the consequences of Heaven's Gate were much worse. There was, you know, a little bit just. They definitely left a trace if you know what I mean. The rest of the trees has a great point.

It'd be ruined like Nike or new balance for like a year. I feel like Nike is still fun. Nike's Nike bounce back fine. Those black and white Nike decades that all of those cult members took their own lives wearing, they are fully back. Like I see them everywhere. So I don't know, 90s revival. It's the low waisted jeans and it's the Nike decade.

90s revival. Yeah, everyone's getting another shot. Well, it's interesting because when I hear about the playa and the playa provides, people love to use Spanish when they're like being alt. I'm like, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So appropriate of and true and the appropriation is another aspect of all of this, which is so classic new age. But you know, in heaven's gate, they would have terminology like that too, where if you were in the mansion that they all shared, that was called in craft. And if you were out in the quote unquote default world, you were out of craft.

And there was an element of like, we're gonna leave this plane because we're not part of the default. Like, I can totally see the parallels. So that kind of stuff is doing real religious work. But the prime difference that I see is that, there is a way to have one foot out the door, but I think the burning man culture can go too far.

And how far it can go is kind of what we wanna explore now. Mm. They've so intrigued. How far can it go? The way that I had it described to me too is like, there's no strangers, we're all friends, and coming from the true crime angle, I'm like, I don't trust everybody around me

just because they're at the same venue. They were talking about a cuddle puddle, and they've all these cuddle puddles, which I don't know if you guys know about that, but, you know, you like all get together in a dark room, and everyone's just like snuggling on each other, and I'm like, no, don't touch me, I don't know. I mean, I know you don't have to do that to be part of it, but I just was like, I think I'd be feel out of place. I think the sheer amount of surrender that is asked of you is what's so magnetizing, but at the same time very scary because you have to put a lot of trust in strangers. And maybe that's the cuddle puddle concern for you.

Yeah, and we talk a lot about this on the show, but I do feel like a lot of the communities that seek these kind of like altering experiences are like privileged communities like we talked about it when we did the hammer family episode Army hammer was such a privileged man that he like low key elevated to like cannibalism allegedly allegedly and it's like maybe people who go to burning man It's like they've experienced all other kinds of vacations and so they have to detach themselves from society to feel something else, to try something new. That's exactly it. They needed to feel something. Yeah, exactly.

And this speaks to a lot of myths that surround the type of person who joins a cult. We think they're desperate. They're on their last dollar. They're in so vulnerable. So vulnerable. Yeah. But you need a lot of privilege to join a cult

or else why would the cult want you? You need resources to stick around. You need something to offer. You need something to offer. You need something to provide. You need something to spend time off. Literally. Literally, you need the money in the time.

I mean, we're in a Honda Civic 98, which is what I tried to drive out to. I did not go to Coachella, but I went that way and my car died halfway through. So I'm like, I guess I couldn't haveella, but I went that way and my car died halfway through. I'm like, guess I couldn't have made it even if I wanted to. Yeah. I mean, and even Burning Man, the privilege alone of being able to just take a week off.

I mean, so many people don't even have that. And it's almost like, it feels like, I hope this isn't too controversial, but it feels a little like cost playing poverty in some way because you're spending $500 to go be in the dirt and like surrender the daily. And not have all of your necessities with you. Right, right. And how am I gonna survive? And that's part of the bonding together

of like trying to make it through. When it's like some people really do have to make it through. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's worth asking why the campings, slash backpacking community is full of people with such privileges because they're like, you know, we're so far removed from not having a home that now not having a home is like an intriguing pleasure

of the whole pastime. I mean, just to throw this completely out there, I went to Catholic school for 16 years and we had something called Shantytown where it was an activity where we would get boxes and decorate them and like sleep outside for awareness of, you know, the unhoused which at the time we were like, it's about learning what it's like to be homeless, you know, and it was, I mean, you know, we were kids so like, I give myself a little grace in that but look back what it's like to be homeless, you know, and it was, I mean, you know, we were kids, so like I give myself a little grace in that, but look back, it's like,

what in the world were these teachers and like staff thinking in like, we slept in boxes overnight, and then we panhandled downtown outside the red stadium, and there were actually unhoused people there panhandling, and then a bunch of white kids in our school uniforms. Like, money please, and like so we got some money. Oh my God. Cult of Catholic school. So taking their money. Literally taking it out of their hands

as awareness, right? Like it's so horrific to look back on. Right. And I talk about it pretty openly. Like my podcast with my brother, because he did it the same activity with me. It was pitched as like, oh, we're just like generating awareness about poverty.

But then like, basically someone's mom like brought us a bunch of pizzas and we just like watch movies. Let me guess you ate the pizzas in front of the people. Yeah. And that's pretty good. I know, I mean, we might as well have like, that's how backwards and like,

at a touch and horrible was. Yeah, I mean, that's like just the domestic version, essentially, of when kids go abroad and they go to South America or Africa and then they take pictures and their parents pay $10,000 for them to get paid. Volunteerism, and the whole pitch is like, oh, I'm bettering the world. Look at me. It's like, oh, yeah, there's something very achive that. So I definitely can sense that. You know what, and I also actually thinking about what scares me the most, and I think you kind of touch on it

is like the isolation. Like I think I have like such a big fear of being trapped somewhere, and I'm not saying like you necessarily be like physically trapped, but you know, I have heard that it's just like a real pain to get out of there. You're out in the middle of nowhere. It just, to me, feels a little scary

to be like that isolated. Yeah. Well, and there's stratification because I'm sure you've heard about the billionaire's row where very, very wealthy people from tech and Hollywood have started attending Burning Man and they'll go with resources that really seem antithetical to the nature of this event

itself. They'll have big RVs. And you know, when I brought a bidet, he's like, I brought a travel bidet. Oh, I respect that. I did do. I was like, OK, now we're talking. But then he went on and he's like,

I brought my pizza oven and my bidet and my air conditioned thing. Oh my gosh. Isn't that just glamping? Well, I guess there's not a lot of water happening in burning man. But a water bottle works perfectly great as a bidet, hot tip for any campers out there. Maybe that's what he meant. He's like

that's my man. That's my talent. Desanee. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Moist palette. But it's interesting because my friend who runs that cult theme encampment at Burning Man, she's not a rich person. She is I think really dedicated to that sort of like OG DIY ethos of Burning Man. And so she commits many weeks to setting up her encampment and strikingly encampment. And that's part of the bonding ritual too, like all that hardship. So there's a stratification between like the billionaires who like show up in a helicopter and stay all week in like a palace on wheels. And then

people who are spending weeks and weeks doing this sort of back breaking, but at the same time voluntary labor. Yeah, like side by side to kind of commune. And the irony there too is that I feel like if the whole point of burning man is that it's the experience of all being out there together without everything at your disposal, I feel like the people who essentially go glamping there don't even get something out of it.

They probably even go, I don't really get what the fuss is. But it's like, well, you weren't out there with everybody. Or I like to picture that they go back to Silicon Valley and they're like, I am changed. Right. I'm a drowning man and I've actually become, I've raised myself to a new soul level. I don't know. But okay, there is one thing I will say as a caveat to like the glamping thing,

which I did here, it was a different podcast. I don't remember, but they were interviewing a guy who does Burning Man and actually met his wife there and he's from New York and so he literally like planned for weeks or months to go and do this whole thing. And he said, you know, 10 years ago when he would go, it was like the down and dirty. And he's like, now that I'm older and have a kid and I'm married and I'm like, I don't know, achy. He's like, now I go with an RV. And so I think you can probably do like a mix of that where if you've experienced the like down in dirty, you can probably go and still like, appreciate it. I wonder if like he's already earned it or something. Well, because it sounds like it's a very experienced based thing. And so it's like if the billionaire's row people

don't actually like experience it, it's like saying you ran a marathon and like having bike to the middle 50 miles. You're just getting like wagon, you're like on some of the soldiers or something. But then when you cross the finish line, you get like all of the praise and like the excitement, but like you don't have that soreness,

achy body that feels bad, but feels so good, because you like feel accomplished. You're so right, there is such a sort of super-cilious cred that comes with being a burner. Even if you didn't do it 100%, like when I meet a burner, and of course, you know, hashtag not all burners, don't come for me,

but sometimes they have this sort of like new-age-illitism to the real, yeah. Which like, I resent, but it also does really seem a learning. And that's the pull of a cult, right? You're like, what the fuck is that, but what the fuck is that? That's exactly where I am. I'm resentful toward it, but I'm like, what'd you do to get that?

I have a sick interest of like, I wanna be you, but do I? And I think one of the main differences, because I looked up like the checklist of what makes a cult, it doesn't have a leader. And in fact, I feel like Burning Man goes against having any leadership where everything is volunteer based, there's no hierarchy, even apparently when they build out the city, there's no actual structure of like,

oh, well, you're gonna do this, you're gonna do this, everyone just kind of jumps in and somehow the city is formed. So I do notice that there's no leader. We've talked about this before, and there's a lot of cult groups that we cover that you'd think they don't have a leader. I feel like that's the perfect example. It's kind of like reality TV.

You're like, who is the leader in the bachelor? I think it's the bachelor. But maybe it's the network. And those are almost sometimes the cultiest group. I'll be honest, because it's most insidious. And I think there's something to be said for a group that's like, we have no leaders, because in human nature, like there just is going

to eventually be hierarchy. And maybe it's only because they're doing it for like two weeks or whatever. But I bet you over time, if they tried to build out this thing, this infrastructure and really create like their own isolated, like I almost guarantee over time if they tried to build out this thing, this infrastructure, and really create their own isolated, like I almost guarantee over time, it would kind of start to stratify in like a hierarchy. I mean, even with billionaires row, right?

Like they'd have the resources. And so part of me thinks like, yeah, I love that, I respect that, I love that everyone's equal and whatever. And as long as they can make that work, I'm like, good job. But maybe it ever does. Maybe the saving grace for them then is just that, like you said, because it's such a short time period,

no one has the time to become a leader. Right, no, that's actually a really good point. That time limit, I actually think, is sort of a flag on the greener-ish end of this chapter. Totally. And I'm also curious, and which checklist of cult characteristics you found, because there are a lot. It's so subjective. I just Googled one, and which checklist of cult characteristics you found, because there are a lot.

It's so subjective. I just Googled one, and I assumed it was a Buzzfeed listicle. Right. It was like, sorry. If you have a leader, if you have the language of in-group versus out-group, if there's any exploitation going on. Well, it's so funny, because there are so many groups that look like a cult, smell like a cult, sound like a cult,

but they don't check off every box on the list. And then you'll find a celebrated Silicon Valley institution or a government body that really does. So it's so thorny. Yeah. And you made a really good point of how insidious it can be. And we've talked about it before on our own show,

but I absolutely think I'm a great candidate to end up in a cult by accident, because I really do talk about this a lot. I really just, I don't know if it's because I'm particularly trusting or something, but if you use words around me like camaraderie and freedom and acceptance, as like your really good close friend and business partner,

I think I know why about you, and it's something I love about you that you really thrive in like a group environment and you really like to be part of a group. It's beautiful. It's very human. It is and like in college, M was in like every fraternity, every sort of like, like, M just loves to be like involved in and be part of a group. I love a society. I'm just like, I like involved in and be part of a group. I love a society. I love a society.

Me too. I'm just like, I want to be in a society, but then when it comes to like participating in group events, I'm kind of like, I just sit this one out. Oh my God, it's too funny. Everyone's so different. I wish I were more of a communalist. I feel like we have similar dynamics here.

Like I'm definitely like a group person. Like I always say like I might trip and fall into a cult. That's the vibe. Yeah, maybe you guys will be in Amanda and I'll have to. If you said I end up in a group, just be a little worried. What made you feel it? But I'm jealous too.

I'm still looking out for the cult for me. I'm ready. Because we have FOMO. So we're like, well, we kind of want to be interested in a community thing. It's just hard for me to get out of bed and really. Well, so just like how you said, you would accidentally just trip into a cult.

I would do the exact same thing, especially with something as we're saying, so insidious, it's not entirely a cult. So I feel like I would very quickly dig my heels and on that to convince people I'm not a cult. And with words like radical inclusion and communal effort and self-expression. It's like all we want in life right now, days.

And my love language is gifts. And the fact that there's a whole gifting situation going on is a big thing. Do the love languages are a cult in and of themselves? I know, I don't. For sure. Yeah. They have such disturbing roots.

I think my only saving grace about tripping and falling into a cult is that I have a really small attention span. So I will fully dive in and then I'll be immediately distracted by something else. I'm over it. Yeah, cult jumping. So the original love languages were created by somebody.

I'm not a super big fan of, but recently, a new set of love languages have come out that are directed towards neurodivergent people, which as someone with ADHD, I've really gravitated towards us, but it was also, they were created by someone who's actually rooted in psychology. Just for a fun fact, we're not even discussing this, but just a shout-out to Mountain Cassidy,

when he needs them, the five neurodivergent love languages are infodumping, parallel play, support swapping, penguin pebbling, and please crush my soul back into my body. Please, crush my soul, that's me. What is that, when you cuddle on top of someone, when you just lay on top of them? Oh, is that what that means? I think it's like a heavy blanket, I think,

like the... Oh, yeah, weighted blanket, but yeah. Me too, I love to be laid upon. Me too. But I think this is an interesting discussion too, because we're talking about something that I think poizes people to want to join cults, which is like, we want to understand the world and ourselves.

And so we create these systems to classify each other and ourselves. We want to place ourselves somewhere. We want to place ourselves somewhere. And that's not always bad. I think it can be a really useful tool, but some people like Keith Renier or Elrond Hubbard, when they get too confident that their system for classifying and helping people is the only way that's kind of a red flag.

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Do either of you know many burners? I didn't know what your description would look like. Well, I have a cousin. He is a DJ in Miami and he goes every year and he is literally exactly like the person you would expect. Like rarely ever wears shoes, like travels the world, DJing all over the place, lives with his dog and like a very like chill, small apartment in Miami. But the other people I know that went to Burning Man when I was living in New York for a hot minute,

I was dog sitting because I was living on my sister's couch and so I would dog sit for a week or two at a time on Rover and normally you meet up with the people, meet up with the dog, go for a walk, get to know each other before you stay in their home as a complete stranger. And these people hit me up last minute and they were like, hey, can you dog sit for like 10 days? We have to go out of town for like an emergency.

And it was like, yeah, and like I got to their apartment. They gave me the keys. They were like, we left a list of what you have to do with the dog, see you in 10 days. Literal, complete strangers. And then they came back and they were like, we got like last minute invited to Burning Man, so we just like had to go.

I know you really, you've dropped everything because it's so difficult to get tickets. Is it? Oh, so difficult. I mean, I actually tried last year and I mean, it's like getting a ticket to the Ares tour. You know, people are like selling their blood. I got one of those guys.

Should I try my hand at a Burning Man? Oh my God, you said you don't join cults. No, okay, but here's the thing as Emily test yesterday I was like, oh, I'm free on Friday and then I went, oh shit no, my brother got me a ticket to that Taylor Swift concert and I was like the heirs door. That Taylor Swift concert. She said it as if she needed to get milk later from the stress. Oh, I've got that ticket to the Taylor's list.

You're kissing so many people off right now that you forgot 48 hours before that you were supposed the stress. Oh, I've got that ticket to the tailor's list. You're just using so many people off right now that you forgot 48 hours before that you were supposed to go. Oh, it's funny. So I just know two burners. I went on dates with some burners out of intrigue. I don't know. I definitely remember.

You were like such an anthropologist. I remember you were like, you went inside. Yeah, well, they were two very different people. One was like a stunningly gorgeous, very elusive girl who like went by another name. And she like brought microdoses of Molly. She was so beautiful. I was like, I, well, do whatever I got to pair.

You know, like this could be a red flag, but we're gonna see later. Yeah, I'm literally so hot. So hot. Yeah, no, it's true. And I do, I will say, I have to say, I do have a habit of joining cults of one, you know, where I get, I really invest myself into like a one charismatic person.

I can't respect that. Yeah, so, yeah, guilty. You know, she brought microdoses of Molly to this like weekday evening date and you know, she, like, she was cool, loved her. But then I also went on a date with Beverly Hills acupuncturist by day, newly minted burner by night. And he was like 25 years older than me and had a really good dog. And we went on a day long date in Venice to a body painting workshop.

Okay. Whoa. You have a little one watching my face. I am doing that emoji. It is the cringe. It is. I'm amazed. I'm like telling everyone. Oh my god It was I had a really dissociate It was not my vibe

No, but you don't say so no second date actually we did go on a second I knew what I was like I call I'm calling it there was devil a second to You went to the AMC theater? No. Wait, no, but honestly, you went to the movies. And then went to the group. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

The best. Yeah, yeah. I love a cheesecake factory AMC combo. That's literally my kind of date. What I live for. Yeah, I know. The juxtaposition with that person of the sort of like daytime presentation

and then the kind of woo-woo problematic appropriative, but seemingly peace and love, attitude of the nighttime burner mentality. It's just very, it's the duality slash the poppers. Like with blush. Yes, it's with blush. It's with blush. I also feel like these kinds of people,

the way you are describing these people that you went on dates with, it sounds like they're so relaxed and so chill. And it's like, I would love to see this person after they have lost their wallet, their flight was canceled. How chill are you? In a bad situation,

it's like, are you still embodying those principles? Are you human like the rest of us? What makes them crack? When you're in the deep world, can you be that chill all the time? Or is it? Yeah, the privilege of being chill. Yeah, so true. And I wonder because there are a few stories I was reading up

about people's experiences at Burning Man and they were having days, long friendships with these people where all they did was talk about like existentialism and never even knew the person's name. And then only later found out that they were like a CEO and a only later found out that they were like a CEO and a university lecturer and that sounds like a high stress job so like I'm wondering if it's a facade for a week or is that your true self that's finally getting to show or is that question okay I love that point and I want to bring it so I just today listen to your Coachella

episode because I was like oh well, well, this will be an interesting dichotomy, I guess, or parallel. But you guys talked about that a little bit where you said there are people who take that week and just go all out as their release from the crazy dating a stress. Yeah, yeah, the catharsis of it. So yeah, am I wonder if it's people

who are working in places like Silicon Valley or high stress jobs, and then they come here to like, let it all vent about the universe and the meaninglessness of it all, you know, I don't know, maybe it's a facade, but maybe they really are just like, let it go for the week. It's probably a bit of both, like, identity creation is just one big experiment. So it's like, it's hard to know what your most authentic self even is sometimes. I mean, I like recently went on like a short vacation

and it reminded me of how like every time I go on vacation, you kind of need one week before you start unwinding, you know? Like you need that. Oh yeah. It's not like a switch. Yeah. Exactly. You can't just like turn the switch off.

You like slowly start turning it off. And I feel like Burning Man is this result of capitalism and that it's only nine days long. And so people are overnight turning the switch off and it's this extreme change so that they can truly disconnect, they become an entirely different person. Whereas if capitalism just allowed us to take more time off, we could take three weeks off out of time so that we have that like one week of unwinding and

then like a proper two-year take-ins. We can explore ourselves outside of work, you know? Yeah. I wonder how quickly things like Burning Man would even crumble if the 9-5 was eradicated. Like if there was even a three-day weekend that was the norm, or if Henry Ford never existed, and like if we weren't under high stress capitalism all the time, would people even need vacation? I know, it's like, is Burning Man just actually

one big smoke screen to keep the capitalist machine working? Cause it's like, well, you've Burning Man. So, it's your break. Yeah, yeah. It's like you clock out and like it just feels like a reaction. Yeah, I mean it's just a giant reaction to capitalism by being so anti-capitalist. And so if one doesn't exist then can the other. Yeah yeah so true. Actually remember the first time I ever like learned what burning man was I remember thinking it was Coltie because why can't we all just have like a little teeny tiny bit of burning man all the time?

Like, why can't we just have freedom and release a little bit? And like rituals to let go of stuff if you're going through a really hard time. Or like support from people to cuddle, puddle you if you need that right now. Or like a safe space to burn your wedding dress if you're like, I need to let go of this shit. I wonder how many elements of Burning Man it would take if you were to bring element by element into the default worlds, how many elements until Burning Man itself is kind of a mood point.

Like, if you, what if we just had radical inclusion? What if we just had civic responsibility? What if we just had civic responsibility? Yeah, what if just the world provided? You know? And like the apply have provided the world. Provided. Yeah. And at some point, if so many of those things got moved

into our normal worlds, then like at what point is burning men not even fun to go to? Yeah. And I think to your point earlier where you said like it's mostly a white community, I think it is an example of how socialism has worked in really small and homogeneous communities because they are all the same. They are more open with each other

and more willing to be inclusive. But I think that's also why America is so late stage capitalism because it is such a diverse country that it's like the complete opposite of socialism. And so I think we could try to include elements of it into our day to day, but I think it would hit walls pretty quickly because we are like a very diverse culture and that's just unfortunate that that's like what would happen, you know. Well, and it's also true that like a lot of sort of Protestant white communities in the United States lack of fundamental cultural identity, you know?

Sure. So I think maybe Burning Man can serve some of those people with sort of like constructed sense of deep rooted culture when they don't actually have one that they can connect to. That's a great point. Yeah, like a lot of minority communities are rooted in more culture, like are rooted in family, like I'm an immigrant, a lot of immigrant communities

are like rooted in like staying with your parents until you get married or like having your parents live with you when they're older and like things like that. You have like the structure built into your group, you're in quote unquote, in group. But that makes a whole lot of sense. And you have an identity template in a way. It's like, these are the cherished recipes of my culture.

These are the cherished clothing items of my culture. And if you don't have any of that precious ritual and symbolism and ceremony built into your life, and these are things that humans profoundly crave. You're gonna look for them in sometimes really cultish communities like Burning Man. I'm from an immigrant family too, but from Germany. And so like our cultural stuff is not quite celebrated.

I think we can all probably read between the lines, but it's something that I'm not like proud of, and I'm not like, yay, I wanna be part of the German groups and the white areas of my town. Like, you know, so I can understand that need to have like an identity like a people who are on the same wavelength. Yeah, I mean, maybe that's where some of the

appropriation comes from, because certain wealthy, Protestant individuals might see communities of color or native communities engaging in these meaningful traditions. And they're like, hey, that looks like fun. Let's go to the desert and pretend we're dead. I want to try that. Yeah. But the wild thing that it to me is that they're like,

oh, instead of like, including folks that are different from us into our everyday life, in our regular world. We have to go simulate their experience and not involve them. So culty. So culty. It is culty.

That's culty later. That's cult. Uh oh. Yeah, we nailed it. Check. So now we're going to play a game which we always do with our guests here. It sounds like a cult. This game is called What's Cultier. It's very simple.

We're just going to name two cult of Burning Man related scenarios and you're going to have to objectively state, what's cultier? This is a best day in my life. I love it. It's so smart. Oh my gosh. Okay, so I'll start off with this first question. Okay. What's cultier? This is a best day in my life. I love it. It's so smart. Oh my gosh. OK, so I'll start off with this first question. OK, what's cult here?

Burning Man or Coachella? Burning Man. Burning Man. Agreed. What's cult here? The Orgy Dome? That's the version of the Cuddle Pluttle, but on steroids. Triple X, the Orgy Dome, or the Burning of the Man ritual.

The Burning of the Man ritual. The Burning of the Man. We're sex positive man ritual the burning of the man works expositive and i love that what's called here billionaires row or the actual cult themed camp billionaires row uh... and i mean i would agree

in the actual cult themed camp they do where these long black robes and thus it really gives itself away but in a way the transparency is nice i I think that's what makes it less culty is like oh we're calling it a cult. It's something very mind-fucky about it. Yeah totally. Okay what's cultier? Dying by overdose at Burning Man or dying by running into the Burning Man itself. Both of that. Running into the Burning Man. Burning Man. Yeah yeah yeah yeah that's crazy. What a way to go. Yeah. Okay. What's cool to hear? The hypocrisy of the festival, acting all conscious and sustainable, but actually having a massive carbon footprint or the hypocrisy of preaching the need for radical self-resilience,

while also preaching that the playa provides. The first one. First one. Hypocrystic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think both Definitely, but I would remember one reason toward the first one. Yeah. I agree. I agree to you because it's like radical self-reliance The playa provides we have so many contradicting sort of pieces of conventional wisdom in this culture. You know, so it's like That's just part of the course, I think. Yeah. It's like fake it. Yeah. You make it, but be authentic. It's like, we always have those, like, sort of

self-prodiligence. But not really. Yeah, yeah. And I also agree that, like, the sustainability factor is, like, a little bit cultier because it has, like, a wider effect on, like, our world at large. Like, they are polluting the area, and they're preaching the complete opposite.

And it's like, right. Yeah, right. Yeah. Did we win? like they are polluting the area and they're preaching the complete opposite. And it's like, right. Yeah, right. Yeah. Did we win? You won! You won! Oh my gosh.

Well, thank you for even having us. Like, this has been a long time coming. So we're just stoked to have been here and get to chat with you. Yeah, this has been so much fun. Our distinct, culty pleasure. I know I said this before we started the episode, but my mother-in-law is a huge fan,

so she got me listening last year, and I just freaking love it. Even though some of the episodes, I'm like, oh, because my kids in Montessori, and I was like listening to that episode dropping or off, and I was like, okay. Yeah, I'm so sorry. Coltie doesn't mean bad.

Coltie doesn't mean bad. Yeah, exactly. But if folks want to keep up with your cult, where can they do that? Yeah. You can send a check payable to, exactly. But if folks want to keep up with your cult, where can they do that? Yeah. You can send a check payable to, no. Yeah. We are basically anywhere on the internet,

and that's why we drink.com has all our info or tour dates. Or you can find us on any pod catcher that you listen to, and that's why we drink. And our socials are ATWV podcast. I'm V.M. Schultz and Christina's X-Teen Sheifer. Awesome, well thanks so much. Thanks, guys. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUT Or I get the fuck out level cult. ESA, you go first. I personally think it's a watcher back.

It's kind of like you are choosing to go to the desert. You are an adult. Yeah. If you're running into a burning statue in the middle of a desert. What's to say, you wouldn't have done that in the middle of a public park. You know what I mean? Like it's, yeah, I agree.

I agree on the watcher back front. It might have been a live your life at the beginning, but isn't that the case for so many cults, everyday cults and classic cults? I don't know, I think the culty parts of it are obvious. We've been talking about them for the past hour, but I do think the fact that it is so voluntary and there is so little that's actually mandatory and the fact that it is only once a year are elements that keep it in the watcher back category despite how it looks on the outside. I I wanna go, I still wanna go. But it's definitely a watcher back

in that you only do it once a year so you put it on a pedestal and then I can also make you addicted in a way, the idea that you feel like you can't leave because you might not be accepted back. Oh, I see, okay. So it's like while there are not sort of like blatant, very scary exit costs, like there would be for Scientology, it's kind of like a lot of the watcher backs that we cover

on the show where it's like, what do you lose? If you don't come back, you might lose that sense of burner identity. Yeah. Well, this has been such an interesting episode. It's not made me want to go to Burning Man Less, but it's definitely made me wanna participate more consciously. And with that, that is our show. Thanks so much for listening. We'll be back with the new cult next week, but in the meantime, stay culty. But not too culty. Sounds like a cult was created, hosted, and produced by Issa Medina and Amanda Montel.

Our theme music is by Casey Colt. To join our cult, follow us on Instagram at SoundsLikeAColtPod. I'm on Instagram at AmandaUnderScoreMontel and feel free to check out my books, Cultish, The Language of Anauticism and Wordslet, a feminist guide to taking back the English language. And I'm on Instagram at Lisa Medina,

I-S-A-A-M-U-D-I-N-A, where you can find tickets to my live standup comedy shows or tell me where to perform. And if you like our show, feel free to give us a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. And if you don't like our show, rate other podcasts the way you rate us. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. you