Sounds Like A Cult - The Cult of Christian Pop Music

Episode Date: August 26, 2025

Bless up, culties. We descend from the heavens in tandem with the reign of Backflippin’ Benson Boone and Ordinary Alex Warren to share with you an episode to lift your spirit and put music in your soul! But not just any music, these tunes must be self deprecating, they’ve gotta be anthemic, they need building major chords and choral vocal FX like you’ve never seen before. Get stomping and clapping, it’s time to discuss Christian Pop Music. Whether you were a Point of Grace stan since before that was even a thing, jammed to Flyleaf during carpool growing up, or have cried melodramatically to a Switchfoot at some point in your life, there’s no denying Christian music’s massive reach has undoubtedly changed the landscape of pop music and influenced countless lives. This week, Amanda and Reese are breaking down the worship-to-radio pipeline, the blurred lines between faith and fame, and why so many of these bops SLAP (even if you’re not saved). Helping them navigate the not so pure world behind the pearly gates of the christian music industry is former Christian pop DIVA, current philanthropist and founder of the organization This Is What Happens When Women Read, Julianna Glasse (@juliannaglasse), ANDDDD author of the fresh-off-the-gutenberg ’90s/’00s Christian cultural autopsy Jesusland, Joelle Kidd. Subscribe to Sounds Like A Cult on Youtube!Follow us on IG @soundslikeacultpod, @amanda_montell, @reesaronii, @chelseaxcharles.  Thank you to our sponsors! Go to https://Quince.com/slac for free shipping on your order and three hundred and sixty-five -day returns. Please consider donating to those affected by the ongoing humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Team SLAC are donating to the PCRF, a nonprofit organization providing vital medical care, food, and humanitarian aid to children and families in need. The Big Magical Cult Show is coming to Just For Laughs Toronto on September 27th. Get your tickets before they sell out!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Audible.com. This is Trixie Mattel, call host of The Bald and The Beautiful Podcast, drag queen, and Amazon Prime enthusiast. And I'm Katya, interpretive dancer, chaos agent, and someone who orders from Amazon Prime more often than I check my email. That's true. Yeah. Prime gives us fast delivery that makes unpacking almost glamorous, endless streaming of our favorite shows, which we call research, and music playlists that are both chaotic and calming. Prime isn't just convenient. It's a gateway to trying new things. It helps us discover new obsessions in diverse. deeper into old ones.

From one day delivery to top shows to music, whatever you're into, it's on Prime. Visit amazon.ca slash prime to get more out of whatever you're into. The views expressed on this episode, as with all episodes of Sounds Like a Cult, are solely host opinions and quoted allegations. The content here should not be taken as indisputable fact. This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. When you are actually kicked out of that cult, because it is a cult, they will turn on you with guns blazing, and that's how you know that they don't actually have the grace that they're singing about. They don't actually have the mercy that they preach. It's spineless love.

The number one Billboard song right now is a Christian song called Ordinary. There are so many of these white bros singing Christian music in the Billboard Top 100 right now. Singing about being a wretched worm for Christ, it's this kind of like masculine Christianity that I think is becoming popular again as there's this bit of a right-word shift in culture at large and a bit of a toxic masculinity resurgence happening right now. I feel like that's really tied to what's happening in Christian music at the moment. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Top 40 is always such a sign of the times. And this is a sign of these culty times. This is Sounds Like a Colts, a show about the modern-day cults we all follow.

host Amanda Montel and I'm an author. And I'm your co-host, Rees Oliver, sounds like a cult's resident rhetoric scholar. Every week on the show, we discuss a different fanatical fringe group or guru from the cultural zeitgeist, from roller derby to Dave Ramsey to try and answer the big question. This group sounds like a cult, but is it really? And if so, which of of our cult categories does it fall into? I live your life, a watch your back, or get the fuck out. After all, cultishness is in the eye of the beholder,

and not every culty-looking group these days is equally bad. The point of this show is to analyze how culty behaviors show up in everyday life, including places you might not think to look, and especially some places you'd never think to listen, like the country music awards or the car radio before you realize

that station is on and fumble to enable your car play. Uh, yeah, today, we are going to Getting into all things Christian pop. Good, bad, and unholy. Ooh, something unholy. So sorry. I have a confession. This is so uncharacteristic and I don't know what this is about me because A, I'm an atheist.

And B, much of my job now is to critique religion. but I love Christian pop music. That seems like a fun fact I could have guessed about you. Wait, why? Because growing up, you were not at all religious and went to church with your best friend just for funzies for the vibes? Like, that's why. Well, it's just so haunting.

Let me clarify, I love it the way that people who are scared of sharks love Shark Week, you know? Like, the way that people are fascinated by things that terrify them. But yeah. When I was in middle school, I loved. Switch foot, Reliant K, Fly Leaf, get a little bit older, I'm out here stomping and clapping to Mumford and Sons. I don't know if that shit is totally Christian, but it's at least Christian coded. Yes, yes, Christian coded. I'm out here obsessed with Sufian Stevens, with Julian Baker. I just love how the tunes are so tuneful and catchy and earwormy and earwormy. And the lyrics,

are so disturbing and tortured. They are. And I realize that I don't have a long history with Christian pop. But as an adult, I realize I probably now listen to more Christian music than I ever have. You mentioned Julian Baker, who is someone I listen to, but like, I would never think like, oh yeah, Christian artists. But like, that's religious music. And then same goes for Ethelcane. I'm a huge Ethelcane fan. All of that super inherently Christian music. But I do think it's funny how different that is from the image of Christian pop that I have when I think about. going into today's episode and just, you know, the diversity of music. It's beautiful. I mean, are we shocked that evangelical Christianity has been clever about disseminating their

gospel through catchy, trendy pop music? No, that's like what they do. And every type of establishment or institution or entertainment that exists in the secular world, you know that there is probably an even more aesthetic analog in the Christian world. Oh, yeah. And we'll get into this a little bit more. But it's because they're always, like, watching what the secular world is doing. And then five steps behind doing it in their own version of perfect for themselves. So they get the benefit of getting a trial run and all of the sinners out there. Yeah. The sinners walk so that the Christians can walk on water. Literally. It has been a while since we recorded one of these religious deconstruction themed episodes. We had our purity rings rerun earlier this year. But, it is so high time. And I mean, I keep saying, like, the consumerist episodes are my favorite. The fandom episodes are my favorite. But no, this Christianity and pop culture stuff, it feeds me. It's truly, I think, the most pure, unadulterated form of cult meets culture in its most prime example. And this episode is exciting. Y'all listeners have to stick around because we have two

incredible guests, an author and a former Christian pop star who both have such incredible insight. on the whole world of Christian pop music. But to like represent this topic in a meme, it just makes me think of that TikTok that I know we've showed on the sounds like a cult feed at some point of this former Christian being like not me growing up in megachurch culture thinking that I was so obsessed with Jesus and then I went to my first Harry Styles concert

and I was just like, oh no, I just love live music. My seventh grade boyfriend, hey. He really tried to evangelize to me. He really, really wanted me to convert to Christianity because his family really loved me. But yeah, I was not a little religious 13 year old and that was not okay. So he was like, well, you come to my like Wednesday night little youth group thing with me. And I was like, I went with him and it was so strange. It was like a baby version of a megachurch. Well, I guess a church. A church. A church, you would call that. But it had very megachurch. A mini church. A mini version of a mega church is just a church. Yeah. You can just call it.

church. It's like that other meme that I saw, I swear I'm not this extremely online, but like someone, some man the other day was like, you know what people should do? Have like an IRL podcast. No microphones, just topics. And I was like, you mean like hanging out with your friends? Literally like talking? No, actually. And that was how I felt when I walked in because there was like little service portion. I think there was like laser tag. It was like some kind of event. And then there was a silent disco moment where you put on your headphones. And I was like, I feel like you guys just need to, like, go to concerts or have fun regularly. Without the, like, dogma and the threat of eternal damnation and all that stuff.

And, like, why are we posted up in the community center at 8.30 p.m. on a Wednesday. Like, we could be playing Mario Kart in my living room and getting equally as fulfilling a community bonding experience, in my opinion. You ate of the fruit of knowledge early, Reese. I spat it out. And you were like, bleh. Anywho, let's get a little bit of background on the cult of. Christian pop music, and then, oof, I'm so excited for this interview. So contemporary Christian music, as we know it, began with the sort of folksy Jesus music

of the 1960s. Okay, are we surprised? It's this peak cult era that we keep returning to. And over the following decades, it expanded. Early developments included the establishment of the Dove Awards by the Gospel Music Association of 1969, same year as the Manson family murders, a lot was happening. And then, soon after, Maranatha music was established, a Christian music label that actually started as a culty little offshoot of the Calvary Chapel in 1971, which was an association of charismatic Christian evangelists. So we're in the 60s, we're in the 70s. A lot of experimenting is happening sociosperitually in the United States and the Christians are trying to get in on it. So over the next 30 years, Christian culture and secular culture,

including pop culture, became increasingly enmeshed. And in many ways, the products of Christianity became less fringy. So, for example, the explicitly religious Christian bookstores and TV channels and radio stations that might have once alienated a Jesus-loving kid from his classmates' hairinal discussions were no longer the only place where said kid could find belonging, because now Christian music was spreading its wings. And secular kids like me didn't even question it because that shit was catchy. Evangelism's decision to, I guess, mainstream their ministry in the form of their version of contemporary pop music wasn't an accident.

It was a way to bring secular people into the fold. At least secular people who were okay with slightly gimmicky, slightly bottom shelf versions of the pop music they had so far been listening to on the top 40 charts. Culture writer and religious historian Kristen Kobez-Dumay had a conversation with Vox's reporter Asia Romano for a piece titled How Christianity Conquered the Hot 100. And in it she said, quote, there was a lot of money to be made in distinctively Christian merchandise. But of course, it wasn't presented as a business. It was presented as ministry and as evangelism. The kind of joke about Christian culture is that they just copy what's happening in secular spaces and then produce things of lower quality.

Wow, so what does that say about my taste level? So, as the megachurches of the 90s are beginning to cook, they are bringing up with them all of this worship music that has been popularized in decades prior by Christian contemporary music giant, Rich Mullins, who, quote, modernized the classic Protestant hymnal structure by combining it with the aesthetics of modern black gospel, emphasizing a soaring, anthemic rock chorus everyone could sing along to. This structure has come to define praise music ever since, end quote.

Oh, that's the shit that gets me. Yeah. Dare you to move. Dare you to move. Rees doesn't know the song, and that is so insane to me. It all just sounds like Toyota commercial music to me. That's fair. Not that that makes it bad.

I just think, like, the drama of it all, it very much gives car commercial a little. Yeah, but imagine if a Toyota commercial was not selling you a car, but salvation. Ooh. See, now maybe I'm interested. Sing along. Right. Now my hands are waving. My flashlight's out if it's a slow one.

Exactly. Ah, I love it. So, it's the 90s. Pants are getting bigger. Songs are getting bigger. The Christian conferences and megachurches of the 90s in the early 2000s. and the establishment of the iconic Hillsong music from Hillsong Church in 1991 in Sydney, Australia, ensured worship music got poppier and more communal in its sound and solidified the megachurch sound baby.

And then somewhere in this whole cocktail of these private little bookstores, these super separate nooks and crannies, now a wee little thing called the internet happened. Don't know if you've heard of it. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. And of course, Christian pop was never the same.

With the internet and its rise in popularity came a new platform for boundless evangelism. You don't even need to go knock on people's doors. This was a scary time. And as an actual Christian artist, you out of necessity would need to engage with the seculars on the internet. Christian artists of the younger generation who grew up super heavily influenced by the Hillsong Sound, now we've come far enough along that those little children have grown up to be Chris Martin. And they made Fix You by Coldplay, which changed the lands. of music forever. Wait, is Coldplay literally Christian? My understanding from this article is that

Chris Martin grew up religious listening to religious music and he took the formula that makes the Christian music you love so addictive and he just made a regular pop song with it, which is why Imagine Dragons happened and why all of these songs that sound like they could be church songs but aren't really. It's because regular people made them grew up listening to church music. That's fascinating and you know what's so weird and I don't know what this says about me but like I can't stand cold play sorry I don't want to yuck anyone's yum but the thing is I feel like I can sense that it is copping the Christian music playbook or like those tools but without that like tortured undertone of I am a worthless worm Jesus save me I'm like suddenly not interested

Yeah. With Fixie, what they talk about in the article is the sense of scale where the song starts out really small and it's very intimate. And then it becomes very grandiose and very all-encompassing and like a spiritual experience, which, by the way, I didn't know that song was about Gwyneth Paltrow. Oh, yeah. Okay, okay, okay, okay. So I get it. For me, I'm just like, Chris Martin, you're being so dramatic. Like, if you're not singing about Satan, shut up. And that's why Coldplay feels so dramatic because it was religious music structure being used to talk about the founder of Gulp. did not know this. Wait, that's all very sounds like a cult coded. It's all so sounds like a cool god. So now we have come full circle. Instead of the Christian music makers taking notes from the pop girlies, now the giant music overlords are taking notes from the church. Oh, and it's all just diluted. So it's like the Christian people took notes from the secular pop world, made it cheesier and higher stakes at the same time. And then the secular world went and was like, ooh, How do I get people to throw their hands in the air like that and sway and cry? What if I made it sound like worship music?

But it got filtered so many times that in the end, to me, it's like really corny, so corny. I do think the ultimate consequence of it is Love Island music, which is all just dramatic sounds in physically no lyrics. Okay. So now where we're at with Christian music is that it's being. clipped for little kids on TikTok in bite-sized 30-second segments, which is making it ultimately really popular even relative to normal pop songs because it's just getting thrown into the same TikTok stew that all popular music is. I had no idea until we started putting together materials for this episode that Christian music was on the mainstream rise in this way. According to a

in NPR titled Christian Music is experiencing a pop breakthrough. Only 39% of contemporary Christian music listenership in 2021 was made up of millennials or younger. Today, that number has risen, like Jesus himself, to 45% and with signs of growth. This is happening alongside the growing numbers of traditional young Christians, specifically young Christian men overall in the United States right now due to Pew Research, which is something that we do discuss more in depth with our guests. But it's just all a little backwards and spooky, but at the same time futuristic. As we've discussed in our mom fluencers episode and in our mission trips episode

and so many other sort of like internet-y cults on this show, social media has proven not just to be a tool of fame and virality, but a religious evangelization tool, the likes of which we've really never seen. seen before. And as the father, the son, the Holy Ghost, the algorithm works its magic, it's dark magic. There is a contemporary Christian music tune to go in the background of any IG reel you might ever want to make no matter your taste. And because contemporary Christian music can sound like anything, Christian artists are having an easier time than ever, finding listeners, evangelizing to them, and sometimes converting people who don't even necessarily know

that what they're listening to is Christian. In that same box piece that we keep referencing, Asia Romano describes the work of artists like Jelly Roll, Brandon Lake, and Thomas Rett as, quote, barstool conversion rock, one of many contemporary Christian music adjacent genres. Yeah, I think that's really the kind of like bro Christian tune that we were hopping on earlier, where it's kind of picking up where country music left off and making it a little popier, a little more miserable for the Gen Z man. As you noted, Amanda, Christian music is having a bit of a breakthrough moment into the mainstream charts. More pop-influenced and less overtly religious but undoubtedly contemporary Christian music inspired. Former ex-ex Mormon Benson Boone's beautiful things. You've seen it. You've heard it. And Alex Warren, that's his name, Alex Warren. We're going to call him Alex something later. His name is Alex Warren. No disrespect.

Alex Warren's Ordinary are both songs that have skyrocketed through the charts. And they represent contemporary Christian music's most powerful and most ubiquitous offspring, hence us being pretty sick of it, these really dramatic building ballads that could be religious if you kind of squint, but most of the time are just about like needing to go to therapy and not really wanting to. To quote again from that NPR article, Christian music is experiencing a new pop breakthrough. This new and evolving embrace of secular messaging arguably explains why so many Christians are warming up to and pushing up the charts, country and rock artists who, despite referencing Jesus here and there in their lyrics,

would have once been viewed by them as morally dubious. Oh my God, like Justin Bieber. Yeah, exactly. There's a lot of hypocrisy because in trying to mitigate the image management while still trying to be a good Christian of it all. And this contradiction kind of serves as the essence of barstool conversion rock. Moral messages coming from spurious messengers. So yeah, last year, still reading from NPR, contemporary Christian music had its biggest streams on Spotify where the genre experienced a 60% growth rate globally over a five-year period as artists reached beyond the confines of the Christian market to occupy sparsely held mainstream space. I'm wondering if the rise in Spotify curated playlists that tend to just throw whatever's popular on them have anything to do with that.

Because if you're listening to just what's popular and a couple of those songs happen to be Christian, are you now counted as a Christian music listener? And what does that, what's the implication of that? Oh my God, I'm probably counted as a Christian music listener. I feel like at this point you definitely are. Is it good that I'm throwing off their numbers? I don't know. But I do love it. Like, I'm so shook by my revelation about cold play and why I don't like it. It's because the stakes aren't high enough. I just love how self-sacrificial and intense this music is if you really pay attention to the lyrics like

I feel so holy holy holy holy holy oh I love it anyway I'm going to stop singing I promise because we have serious business to get to and that is our amazing interview this was so enlightening we are thrilled honored proud and filled with worship to introduce you to our two guests today The first is Joe L. Kid, author of the new book, Jesusland, a collection of essays exploring Christian pop culture of the early 2000s, and Juliana Glass, former pop singer and evangelical Christian-turned philanthropist, who just recently launched her organization called This Is What Happens When Women Read. We were able to talk to both of these women at the same time and get these sort of dueling perspectives on the cult of Christian pop, and it was so juicy. After the break, we are so blessed to deliver you this interview. It's Trixie and Katya, you're from The Bald and the Beautiful, and we have to talk to you about Audible. If you know anything about us, we are certified romanceopaths. Rose sniffing swoon lords.

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Conditions apply, details in store, and more offers at rona.ca. Okay, shut it off, fellas. Joelle and Juliana, thank you so much for joining this episode of Sounds Like a Cult. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks for having me. We've got quite the multi-talented caucus here today to discuss a topic that I feel my soul has been singing out for quite some time. First, I just wanted to ask if each of you could describe your individual journeys with Christian music

and how those journeys might mirror a cult experience, whatever that means to you. Joelle, maybe you could go first. Yeah, I came from a Christian family, but my family lived overseas for a few years. And when we moved back to Canada, it was like double culture shock because I was suddenly in this evangelical Christian school. And not only did I not really know what was going on in Canada, but I had no idea it was this whole other world of pop culture, like all these bands I'd never heard of, these Christian artists. And that was like the thing that actually kicked off me writing about Christian pop culture, because it was really its own separate subculture. And it was kind of my only way to try and make myself fit in. And so I've always found it weird and fascinating.

And it does have that little culty vibe of like very. separate from the rest of culture and its own little mirror universe. Juliana, tell us about your story. Yeah, Joelle, thanks for sharing because I think we're going to balance one another and that you were kind of thrust into it and I was raised in it. So I actually was a Christian pop singer for 11 years. I was indoctrinated deeply into the religious institution. And so for me, it was all I knew, right?

It was ubiquitous. It would be like you asking a fish to describe water when it touches every corner of your life. It's really the lens through which you. you see the whole world. And so for me, it didn't feel like a subculture. It felt like a calling. So I was a pianist and a classical performer, but I knew that I was called to serve women and to serve God by converting people to Christianity by means of my gift, which was music. So sang, performed for women for 11 years, wrote three different books, performed at the National Prayer Breakfast Weekend for Donald Trump in 2017. Because I was like, right-wing, Republican, Christian,

anti-gay anti-women's rights. Again, this is the framework through which you see your world. And not only the way that you see the world, but you believe that you are on a mission to save people from eternal damnation. So while it is kind of funny and joking, it's also fucking dangerous because this system is built on this ideology that there's a separation of in and out. And not just in and out, I love how you use Amanda, like the example of soul cycle, which for me, like if you've missed soul cycle for a day. No one's coming and calling you to repentance, right? We're like publicly shaming you. Hopefully. Yeah, hopefully not. Might not be a great look for the brand. But in music, for me, 11 years of just really being indoctrinated in that world and serving that world and loving

the women. And then I had my third child. And I was like, I don't think I could tell my daughter that she is inherently lesser than a man or that her proximity to God is in direct correlation to her proximity to a man. And then I couldn't imagine telling my son that he was evil and depraved and separate from God, which is when you listen to Christian music is the bedrock of all of the messaging. Like you are evil. You are separate. You do not have value in and of yourself. So you have to have this higher power. And it's a very strange psychological abuse, I believe. And so for me, when I met my first gay couple, and I fell in love with them. And I was like, they lied. You're not single-handedly destroying American democracy like I've been told my whole life. I literally I they

saved my life. The queer community saved my life and then started reading books and as I read books then the world became super threatened that I was in and everyone from my management to my label to my publishing because all of these businesses require a statement of faith to be signed and so it's not just oh I'm good at singing and so I'm going to perform for this crowd of women. It's like no you sign on a dotted line. And not only could I lose and did lose my publishing deal, for instance, they could require I pay it back for no longer aligning to these beliefs. So anyway, I digress, but I come from like a very different perspective and have since completely left it and went back to school and started, this is what happens when women read because the day that I told a man in the church

that I was pro queer community, pro women's rights, he said, this is what happens when women read. And I was like, oh, this is what happened. Oh, my God. I want a neon sign hanging in my house. I know that says this is what happens when women read. All the merch is coming for you. Good. Thank you so much.

I think it's really important that listeners hear that story because, yes, it is easy to have a laugh about how much we listened to Switchfoot growing up and, like, deconstructing that or whatever. But there are really high stakes here. And when you listen to pop music, that means a lot to you that's secular, especially when you're a young person, it can have this transformative, almost religious seeming effect on you. But when those same chord progressions are infused with the highest stakes you could ever encounter, that being your entire worldly community, but also the afterlife, some seriously culty manipulation can be introduced into the picture. And it is not easy to step away from that. So we're both super grateful to be talking to both

of you today. Oh, yes. I mean, we just kind of dove right into the deep end there. And I mean, how culty Christian pop music is, I feel eludes none of us. But if each of you could maybe just sum up a little taste of the number one cultiest thing about Christian pop music, if you have had to choose. Maybe something that people don't even realize. Yeah. Well, I'd love to hear your insider take, Juliana. I was going to say similar to what you were talking about, Amanda, it's just that strange confluence of the sacred and the profane of like capitalism and religion kind of budding heads where you have this kind of like goofy sounding music, but then it's also like so life or death. They're saying about eternity. Like you have to believe what they

believe where you're going to be roasting in hell. So there's something very strange about those two things layered on top of each other that I find very culty, very in and out, very sharp line drawn. Yeah, I agree with you entirely there. And I think I would add to it in just the physical movements, too, that are expected, especially of worship leaders and of people, such as myself, like when I was performing, if there was a slower song, there was an expectation to lead in worship. And that largely would be like hand positioning, praying, like hand on chest, even like the swaying, right, or this physical kind of bonding that takes place. Alexander the Great was the first one that came up with marching.

And we now understand that as psychological muscular bonding because he realized that his warriors would be much more effective if they were all in lockstep. And I see Christian music and worship music largely the same because they are using these similar movements and these similar motions. and that is bonding the group together psychologically, even without them knowing it. I find that really fascinating now as an observer that's outside of it to witness. It's like you don't even really understand what it is, how deeply they are ingraining these ideologies and theologies into your system, even in a physical manifestation.

Oh my God, yeah. It's like a whole body experience when you're engaged in this extremely conformist. But at the same time, I can imagine really fulfilling physical gesturing and choreography. You're also singing with your whole self these like really powerful lyrics. There's literally words put into your mouth. Yeah. I actually was just rewatching some switchfoot performances the other day, I guess, like psyching myself out for this recording.

And speaking to that juxtaposition that you were noted, and Joelle about it's not just like spirituality and capitalism. It's also like I am nothing, but I'm also performing on a stage. Better than everyone else. Yeah, there's a lot of tension going on. And I had never really noticed at the time when I was listening to this stuff, how present that is, even in the delivery. Like, I find that when Christian pop singers are performing on stage and also when like Christian YouTubers are like testifying in a video or whatever, they all have this very similar delivery that's super passionate, but also strained. Also like holding back, but singing up, but holding back. There's so much tension that I think has a real psychological

parallel. And we wanted to ask, like, you know, I did not grow up Christian. I grew up atheist, sort of Jewish. So not in this world. But my middle school best friend was in the mega church world and I was fascinated by this. So I was wondering if you could kind of reflect on that early 2000s era of Christian music. And what you think gave that style of music at that time such a distinct flavor. And why do you think it appealed even to non-Christians like me? Oh, man. I will say that in the trajectory of the growth of Christianity, especially in the United States, Christianity was having like a cool moment. So we were following like the Beth Moors of the world, which Beth Moore was known as a teacher in the conservative Christian world. But she was very, very conservative. But I think that

women and Christian women, even women like myself, we were wanting some more freedom. Like we were watching the rest of the world. We were feeling what I call simmers. Like we were simmering a little bit. We were like, okay, I don't want to be a Beth Moore that's like super staunch and won't even sit in a room alone with a guy, but I still want to love Jesus and make my songs. And so it was like, how can we stay within the guide rails of scripture, stay within the guide rails of the church, but get to the edges of them. And so for, at least for me, that's what it was. It was like, hey, I'm going to pull from Radiohead. I'm going to pull from Imogen Heap. I'm going to pull from these incredible artists. But I'm not doing anything wrong because my words are still super,

super submissive and very godly. So it's fine. So it's like, I think we were all like in this moment of great music, number one, fun music, but realizing that we didn't want staunch Christianity. We wanted more fun, playful Christianity. And so the idea of having pop, it was cool at the time. The idea of taking these old hymns and redoing them in a more modern way was popularized because I think we were stretching the limits a little bit, at least from my perspective, that's what I would say. Yeah, I think that's so right. And to be a little bit more cynical about it as well, I also think the 2000s was really like the peak profitability for the record industry and the bookstore industry, which was where all this Christian music was disseminated through these Christian bookstores

that had this really strong network at the time across the U.S. and Canada, too. And so that was like such a profitable area for Christian publishers to get into. It was also right at the time when the religious right figured out a lot of ways and loopholes to get into American politics. And that also became a great funding source for these publishers because now they had another message to spread along with the religion was all these trappings of like politics that went along with it. So I also think that what Julianna was talking about feels so true to like my memory of it too, like as a kid who was interested in music at the time and writing. I remember feeling

that way like, oh, I can be Christian, but I can bring it into my art. And then I think there was this sort of push from the top towards a very specific type of right wing Christianity and making that profitable and pouring money into it. I agree with that completely. And I think that religious people are often, and I don't mean this in any kind of pejorative manner, but like, they want to do good. And so policyholders and politicians can take advantage of that quite quickly because these are good people that want to do what is right. So the only thing you have to do is instill fear in them, which they know intimately and truly is the reason why they believe what they believe. So you perpetuate that fear and then they do your work for you. And so to,

your point, Joelle, I think that kind of coercive nature of politicians to use sort of this low-hanging fruit of the Christian culture of which there are 47 million self-professing American evangelical women in the United States alone. And if they were anything like me, they didn't have voting autonomy. You voted the way that your husband instructed you to vote because he's your spiritual head. And so I think you're entirely right to shine a light on the fact that it was much more coercive than probably what I understood at the time for sure. It is so chilling to hear you reflect on this early 2000s conflation of pop culture, Christianity, and far right politics. Because look where we are now. It's a little familiar. Yeah, now it's so omnipresent

that it's like. Yeah. It's horrifying. Yeah, I think these two conversations are becoming more and more the same conversation. And it really just makes me wonder, like, if there is one leader of the Christian music cult. Who is it? Like, is it Jesus? Is it Instagram Reels? Who is it? I haven't listened to Christian music in so long, and I was listening to a lot of it this last week, knowing this was coming up, and I was like, all these songs that I was hearing in the grocery store and going like, are they playing worship music? But they are. It's Christian music. And it all sounds like cool play now. Maybe my hot take, you would think that the musicians themselves would be the cult leaders, but in a way, I almost wonder if it's the fans or if it's the record companies that are distributing this music. Because when I was thinking about it, I think that a lot of, and maybe Juliana, you can speak to this more, but I think a lot of Christian musicians are really being surveilled on both sides by some pretty strict codes of conduct and presentation of yourself and your music. So it's almost like the most visible people are not leading this cult. So true.

That's so often the case in the cults that we cover on this show. Yeah, I suppose. It's an astute observation. And I think I would add to that not being familiar. with like the actual artists that are out there performing right now. But I think a mistake that I'll say we, knowing that we're all new friends here, but the mistake that I see many like feminist groups or leftist groups, Democrats making is that they're trying to approach dogmatism with more dogmatism. And what that does is it just further perpetuates the issue. It makes them

louder. I remember when the Me Too movement was happening and I was scared of the feminist. That was not inspiring to me. I didn't feel called to like, yes, wave a flag. I felt like, oh, no, no, no, that's scary. I will never be that. I mean, lo and behold, hello. Now, now here we are. You know, my work on cultish influence and cognitive biases over the years would lead me to agree with you there. When we feel beyond our ideas being threatened, our community is being threatened. When someone challenges us, we tend to backfire and double down with like even more intense belief. So like we say on the show all the time, nobody likes to be told that they're and a cult and that they're brainwashed. It's not effective. But I am just curious, how was the

Me Too movement framed as something scary to you at the time? Oh, to see women in their full power. To see women marching and being loud and using their voices and clearly not being submissive to their husbands and saying the thing that no one was supposed to talk about. Like that for me was threatening to this ideology that I was trying to maintain. So the work that we're doing now and that I'm doing is like, I'm working on a curriculum right now with a professor of clinical psychology at Berkeley. And we're working on a curriculum that will help a woman leave religion in a gracious way and recreate a meaning-making system in her life. Because all of these ideals from love, you know, love to me used to mean telling the gay community that they were in sin. So you have to

reframe what does love mean to me now. What does justice mean to me now? What does it mean to be a woman now. So anyway, we're working on a curriculum that hopefully we will be able to get into the hands of millions of these women here around the United States to help aid them, not be afraid of liberation, but to be inspired by it and to know that liberation can come and that they can do it in a beautiful way. Wow. That is amazing, I have to say, first of all. And second, it is really fascinating to hear you explain all of that because, I mean, Christian pop music might sound like a small ingredient in this whole recipe, but because it is so consumable. And yet the message of all these songs is still, you are nothing, you do not have individual

power. The stakes are so high for something so casually consumed. Yeah. Exactly. I can easily see how mainlining that into your veins from a very young age could frame feminism or female empowerment as highly threatening to everything you've ever known. Juliano, who do you think might be the cult leader here? Well, the leader of the cult, I mean, I think anyone in a leadership position, a pastor,

that's standing on a stage and teaching the doctrine of depravity to groups of people and then telling them that their worth and value is not inherent but needs to be found elsewhere, those men, because they are largely men, are held responsible and they know what the fuck they are doing and they need to be held accountable for it because women are suffering. Women have agency in and of themselves. They have autonomy in and of themselves. They are intrinsically good, intrinsically worthy, intrinsically made by love and for love. And to teach them anything other than that is perpetuating a system of hierarchy and of patriarchy

that oppresses and represses women and has been doing for millennia. Thank you very much. That's what I have. It's awesome. Thank you, big, thank you, thank you, man, good night. This episode is brought to you by Defender. With its 626 horsepower twin-turbo V8 engine,

the Defender Octa is taking on the Dakar rally. The ultimate off-road challenge. Learn more at landrover.ca. Pictures presents. The Roses, only in Theaters Friday. From the director of Meet the Parents and the writer of Poor Things comes The Roses, starring Academy Award winner Olivia Coleman, Academy Award nominee Benedict Cumberbatch, Andy Samburg, Kate McKinnon, and Allison Janney. A hilarious new comedy filled with drama, excitement, and a little bit of hatred, proving that marriage isn't always a bed of roses. See The Roses only in theaters Friday. Get tickets now.

Okay, so the music industry all on its own, the secular music industry is so culty, so exploitative, the most artist unfriendly entertainment subcategory I can think of. And yet, how is the Christian music industry even cultier in terms of like the hierarchy or any of that? Well, I do think that moral component really adds another layer. I think you already see that in current secular culture when you talk about like Stan culture or these sort of intense fan communities where artists are held to some really high standards. And it's a different morality. But within Christian music, I think musicians have always been held to these really sometimes arbitrary, but really intense moral standards by both their fans and their management. I was just talking to my partner who

grew up in Ohio, grew up really conservative evangelical. And they had this friend who would like follow a blog that would keep tapped on all their favorite musicians and switchfoot once the rumor was that they had puked on stage and so therefore they were all drinking and they were hung over and that's why and so they were fallen from Christ's and turned out they had food poisoning or something but I feel like there's a kind of like rabid fan behavior that it's just got a little extra twist of those high stakes we were talking of eternal damnation exactly I remember having a really really difficult moral dilemma around having shows on Sunday because I wasn't supposed to work on Sunday. You're supposed to recognize the Sabbath. And I remember fans asking me, like,

how could you have a show and be working and making money on a Sunday? So there was that component for me. Definitely the morality, Joelle, what you're talking about. Oh, my God. I remember not listening to Amy Grant when she got a divorce. I was like, well, she's living in sin. It's over. She was over for me. Like, you could not be a godly Christian individual and be divorced. Those two things were incongruistic. So, like, that is wild to me. And to be on the receiving end of that kind of excommunication is so horrendously violent. When I left in 2019, I lost everything. I lost all of my work. And I went through a divorce. My divorce was very public. And I had hate mail. I had death threats. I had incredibly violent rape messages sent to me by Christians.

Like, this was the Christian community. that came out at me with such vitriol and this Machiavallian posture that was unlike anything I had ever experienced. And it was so disorienting because you had been taught grace your whole life and grace and love and forgiveness and joy and all of these beautiful attributes. But when you are actually kicked out of that cult, because it is a cult, they will turn on you with guns blazing. And that's how you know that they don't actually have the grace that they're singing about. They don't actually have the mercy that they preach. It's spineless love. Dude, I had not like fully processed how intense the combination of like secular stand culture and Christian fundamentalism, how intense that conglomeration would be.

Like, holy shit. I'm so sorry. I am too. Listen, no one should ever deal with what I dealt with. But the reality is that people do and they do it on a daily. And this is not just in the United States. This is global, like any woman, my scholars that I have at the University of Oxford, when they choose to not get married in their arranged marriage, and they choose to educate themselves, and they choose to come to the university, they will lose everything, their family, their funding, their community, their reputation, all of it, because they are daring to self-actualize and they are daring to become who they can imagine they can become. And that's the risk that every woman takes when she says, I know who I want to be and nothing is going to stop me from becoming it. Wow. What you just said is giving like Rachel Platton lyrics, like, let's go. She's like songwriting in real time. Yeah. For real.

That's so empowering. And I think especially what makes the overlapping centers of control, so especially vile, is that music is just supposed to be something that's so self-expressive and so personal. And to have it not only policed by like those. above you, those below you, but even your peers and those around you for not even the subject matter of the songs themselves. Like, on no level are you allowed psychological privacy? And it's truly chilling. So I'm wondering how that plays out in terms of like peer to peer dynamics are Christian artists who tend to play it a little riskier and appeal to a wider, more secular audience, kind of shunned by those who color within the lines a little more? Yeah, like, is it

satanic to have fans who are atheists like me. Yeah, your comment about not being able to listen to the artist, Giuliana, who got divorced, I was like, oh, wow. So even within it, there are so many subcults within this subcult based on how hard you're writing. Yeah, I mean, no, you love having non-Christian fans because you are called to convert them. And so the more, the merrier, like the bigger and louder you can be, the larger your

platform, they would consider that God blessing you because you are preaching his word. Yeah, I can't believe you didn't. come a Christian, Amanda, after all that switchfoot listening. I know. You weren't. It didn't work. You're meant to live for so much more. Don't even get me started, Joelle. I will burst out. I know every word. Well, you know, I was, I was reading. I was reading books.

Oh, no, don't do it. How dare you? So, Stan culture, obviously, is something that is so hot and just like such a high pressure environment and being a fan of anything nowadays is impossible to do casually, especially music artists. You know, the barrier to entry, it's so expensive. There's so much time you need to dedicate. And then obviously Christian pop music adds a whole new layer to that. So what makes the fans of Christian pop artists cultier than those of normal pop artists? Well, I love this question because I love them. Like my heart is for these fans. I love these women so much. I love these women so much. I served them for so many years. I spent so much of my life singing and writing for them and

teaching them. And so I adore them with my whole heart. I think what makes it cultier is that they're looking to you as a leader and not just a leader, like a mentor or someone to look up to, but actually a spiritual leader. And that's a problem, you know, for any one individual to usher out their agency. You're not going to do that sexually or psychologically or intellectually. You have autonomy over those parts of your life. Why do we usher them out spiritually? We need to reclaim spiritual autonomy. Reese, to your point, spiritual privacy. Like, what a notion to not have to divulge for the world or fillet oneself out for everyone to see. Like, in the Christian world and in the Christian pop fandom world, how are you as a loaded gun? It's how are you before Christ and who are you witnessing

to? And what are you struggling with? Right. And like, what do you need to repent of? What do you need to confess. So these are very deep internal sort of existential questions that it's too much weight for any one woman to carry. It's too much weight for any Christian pop fans to carry and it needs to change. Yeah, that's so true. It's so heavy. And I think it's like the parisocial relationship that people have with celebrities or with their favorite musicians. But again, it's got that extra level of spirituality, which this is kind of a beautiful idea. Like, people have literally probably sung your songs and felt like they were having a spiritual experience and have had like a really deep religious connection to it. But it also takes on such a

weight in terms of this relationship that they have with someone they've never met and maybe never will talk to in real life and don't really know no matter how much people think that they know each other within Christianity because you are supposed to lay your soul so bear and kind of like confess all your sins. You know, we released an episode on the cult of rave culture earlier this year. And Reese made a really good point where she was like, the raves are getting churchier and the churches are getting raged. Yeah. And we talk a lot on this show about how secular spaces are being infused with more religiosity as just like Americans' relationship to spirituality is changing. And actually, though, peer research reflects that a lot of young

Americans are returning to traditional Christianity in a big way, which could be the result of anything from rebelling against their atheist parents to looking for community in disconnected times to our right-wing government. But your commentary here is important to hear as a perspective shift because ultimately, like, you could have the most hardcore swiftly. And odds are, that person doesn't actually think that if they master being the perfect Swifty, they'll get to talk to God somehow. Exactly. Well, props to Taylor Swift for not claiming that she could. Bro. So true. She came out and started saying that you better believe people would fall in line.

Oh, my God. A hundred percent. The first time I ever went to a Robin concert, IRL, I was like, like, if this woman wanted me to vote against my own interests, I would consider it. We really, we worship in scare quotes, these artists, but when it comes to Christian pop artists, those scare quotes go away. That's so true. Yeah. And what really kind of scares me is how much our culture loves to scrutinize celebrities and like find things that they do wrong, whereas this almost feels the other way, where it's like, we can't see you doing anything wrong. And to exist in the eye of both of those forces is a really paralyzing way to live as a Christian pop star, I imagine.

Yeah. It's such a great observation. And I think you're totally right. It's like the opposite side of the same coin, right? And I think we observe it in our culture right now, this what I consider to be the most anti-intellectual movement that there is, which is cancel culture. And the Christian world is built on this in and out mentality. And so when a pastor ends up just being a dude, my dad was a person.

He's just the guy. You know, when I decide to change my life and to get a divorce and go back to school, it's like threatening their system. And so this idea of canceling people is really frustrating to me because it shows that we are not evolutionary beings when we are. We're supposed to be able to map our progress. We should be able to look back 50 years and go, oh, shit, we got that wrong. But like, yay, we got it wrong.

That's why I love science so much because science exists to prove itself wrong. and to know more and to know more and to know more. And when you live in this very binary way of believing and belief system like Christianity, then there is no movement. There is no evolution to being certain. The system continues to exist because the certitude is there. Oh my God. Come on now. The poetry of evolution. I'm like trying to worship you right now. I know. I feel like people thought this was going to be like a fun lighthearted episode and the listeners are getting like a thorough awakening right now. Literally.

I'm like, let's talk about evolution. You know what? I saw the questions and I told my team like, oh God, I'm going to throw a wrench in this because like I've lived it and there's like some scariness to it. No, this is the tone. This is exactly right. You two are perfect. And yet perfection doesn't exist.

I want to know from both of your perspectives what makes a perfect Christian pop star. So far, we know it's someone who's not divorced. But if you could help build us a perfect Christian pop star, what does this person look like? What merch are they selling? What beverages are they serving in the lobby? Like, where are they performing? What does their Instagram font look like? You know, like paint us a picture.

Not to offend any Christian music fans. There's something a little bland about Christian music. And I think it's a mass market kind of genre. So I feel like you have to be pretty. you have to be you know attractive but you have to be sort of like acceptable to anyone and there's like a little bit of a middle of the road vibe it's like Benson Boone right like he does backflips and he still seems kind of bland like I don't know what it is that is so true he could be like walking on water and like little androgynous heels and everybody would be like bland love him

so mad throw him on in the background I definitely agree there's like you have to to be cute, but, like, not too cute. And you have to be fashionable, but modest. Oh, I mean, modesty for sure. So, like, I think that's great. The floral thing. Oh, one really interesting piece of it is the pitch of the voice. Like, when you are a Christian pop singer and you are here to talk to the women and to worship with you and to pray with you, like, there is just this really sweet tone and, like, Breathy and Eric. That is so fucking weird. No, it is. It's breathy, but it's tortured. It's torture. Yes.

It's repression. There is a book called A Well-Trained Wife by Tia Levings, who she's fucking often. Oh, I know. We had her on the show. You did? Okay. You're so happy. She's a friend of mine.

But she talks about this, too, like the expectation of where your voice is. I mean, perfect pop star has kids. Or they'll dress in like very consistent, not fashion forward, but like long and flowy or like kind of Nashville, monochromatic, flat-built hat, skinny jeans. white on white on white and like the merch is like the cup that has the one flower that has like Jesus freak on it or something or like like I love to cuss and I love Jesus like something like that my fans were that we were the Christian drinkers we kind of quietly dubbed ourselves and these women you guys you're going to love this this is why I'm most obsessed with these women there was this one time

this group of women came up to me and they were dressed like in sparkles and kind of loud and I was like oh my god you guys look amazing although I probably sit like this Oh, my God. You guys, look amazing. So happy that you're here. And I was like, I love what you're wearing. You look outstanding. And they said, oh, we changed in the car because their husbands never would have let us wear this. So we went shopping together. We hid these clothes. We got changed in the car on the way and then we'll get changed on the way back. Oh, my God. It's like something a teenager would do. We want to be set free. Everyone wants to be set free. If you're listening to your heart, damn, you want to be set free and we'll find any way to do it, whether that's just wearing sparkles. a Christian pop concert. Okay. What are some of your favorite Christian music specific phrases or pieces of lingo? I love like the constant need to talk about like ocean and I'm in a storm or in God is the ocean or like the fire of this.

There's this elemental part of Christian music that definitely appeals to nature, which I mean is mystery and all of those things. But when you're trying to like articulate something that's mysterious that we apparently can't know or understand, you're just grabbing for these. certain words. So I am always kind of amused by like how many times the ocean can be used in a Christian song. And even like one of the oldest hym's amazing grace have these really fascinating words. We can use wretch in a song in Christian music and no one bats an eye. We can use the word horror in a Christian song and no one bats an I. Like I am a whore or I am a worm or like

we have these really strange comparisons that we attach ourselves to that are just really. really odd when you see them written down. Why do I want so badly to collaborate with Reese and create a Christian girl pop duo and write a song? Please do. Wait, wait a minute. I think it would be too good. I think our power would be too strong. But we should cut. Oh, no. I am obsessed with this. But again, it is very fucked up. But that's the problem is that there's so much delight in all of this that like it can so easily mask the most nefarious dangerous shit well music is so straight to the heart and it's also like there's a reason why you sing nomonic rhymes to remember things like it really worms its way into your brain and into your constant everyday thought

patterns and it stays with you i still know every lyric to like a reliant k song i listen to a lot in high school or something you know like it's just in there So true. Again, I wish the climate scientists would get better at rhyming. Yeah, where are those songs? Honestly, though. It's not a bad idea. So thinking about women participating in the Christian music space, I guess I'm wondering on the other side of the coin, what Christian pop has to offer to the young men of today, religious and otherwise. What's Benson Boone offering?

Well, I did go on a little bit of a rabbit hole because I did not realize. I don't know if you guys are more up on this, but the number one Billboard song right now is a Christian song called Ordinary, and I've already forgotten the guy's name, but there are so many of these white bros singing Christian music in the Billboard Top 100 right now. We've got Morgan Wallen, we've got Alex something, we've got Benson Boone, jelly roll. Everyone's out here singing about being a wretched worm for Christ. And I feel like it's really bringing me back to the early 2000s because it's this kind of like masculine Christianity that I think is becoming popular again as there's this bit of a right word shift in culture at large and a bit of a toxic masculinity resurgence happening right now. I feel like that's really tied to what's happening in Christian music at the moment. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Top 40 is always such a sign of the times. And this is a sign of these culty times. No, I think you're totally right. It's a sign of the times and it's something that historically

we can see that there's always a pendulum swing. When something has gone too far one way, then we tend to culturally swing back the other way. And I would say that in the movement of feminism and feminist progress, we are at the time where it's time to include the men. It's time to include the boys. It's time to have healthy discourse. Try and cultivate unity without requiring uniformity. Be patient with each other, listen to one another. Because if we don't, if someone doesn't feel heard, then they're going to try and find a place to identify. I think that's what we tend to do as humans is like, we want belonging Amanda to your point earlier. Like we want belonging. We want community. And when you are feeling ostracized, well, where is the easiest place to go and find it? A church. Because it's already set up and it's

been set up and maintained for so long. So that's why I think men are falling back into this because their sense of worth and value is being challenged because women have risen. And instead of finding it in themselves, they're finding it in this supernatural being that conveniently cannot be proven or disproven that apparently is required to understand and be saved for eternal life. So I think it's an identity crisis that we're seeing in men. Yeah. I think it offers a sense of comfort too for people who are feeling like they're left on the back foot in this kind of culture in this climate, but I don't know. It doesn't actually offer what I think a more progressive vision of the world would offer men. Yeah, I agree. I did think that there is time. I went on a

listening tour for about a year in preparation for my case study. And I was interviewing women from all around the world. And it was really interesting because a lot of migrant women found themselves being religious or like wanting to hold a cross because they were on the process of journeying somewhere new. Or like even black women in America, a lot of them were deeply religious. And because there was this obvious struggle of finding identification because their dignity was being stripped from them constantly. And so in that respect, I think it can offer something beautiful for a time. I don't think it's sustainable. And then I think fundamentally it's harmful when you observe globally the seedbed of all inequality is religion. Is this weaponization

of a godhead? Why? Because it can't be proven. And so it's just super convenient. It's like the most powerful weapon in the world. So I think when we see this observation, of men flooding to Christian pop music and flooding to church and flooding back, we have to ask ourselves the larger question, which is why do they feel like their identity has been stripped of them? And how do we keep that from happening even in our own conversations? Because that does not benefit the well-being of humanity at large. I'm so glad week after week to continue having these culty conversations because we are communalists as human beings and our ability to find belonging and identity and solace or whatever, and solace or whatever, is being compromised

in a big way right now. And we do need something to give us hope. And even answers that don't exist. But the reason why I think that this podcast is an important place for me to keep coming back to, in addition to just like a fun place, is because I too am on this like daily quest to find how I can make the best of cultishness while avoiding the worst. And yes, we make fun of these groups sometimes or poke fun, I'll say, because the humor like makes it a little more accessible and takes the edge off of some pretty heavy subject matter, I think. But like at bottom, I do think that having these conversations is significant because it allows us to think about how do I want to find meaning and belonging these days in a time when like there is so much

exploitation and there are so many sinister power hungry figures more than willing to take advantage of us. And that's why we have our live your life watcher back get the fuck out system. So be able to tell what's what. Participate at your own risk and for your own benefit. Yeah. Yeah, you guys do such important work in bringing people together and listening and after thoughtful, provoking questions, and really being willing to approach difficult and somewhat taboo subjects as well, right? Like, cults inevitably have this sort of taboo nature about them.

Even the word cult, as you know, Amanda, like it's difficult to even define. And so I love what you're doing. I think it's really important and just important for everyone to continue thinking about. That is so nice to hear, especially from someone with your background, because we do sometimes get some like pretty intense, almost like gatekeeping sort of criticism where people be like, how dare you throw around the word cult this way? And we're obviously not the only people doing that. Every other article you see in like Business Insider or any publication that you see is like the cult of Hooters. American Apparel. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly the cult of American Apparel. Like that's literally a Netflix documentary. So we're not the only people.

We're just talking about human behavior. Like, it's, yeah, people get so cagey. Anyways, we have a couple more questions for you two delightful humans. Deweil, you touched on this a little bit. What do we think the swing towards Christian and or generally religious flavored music is telling us about where we are as a society and where we're going? Yeah, I mean, I just, it's like time is a flat circle. I just really feel like we're back in the Y2K era sometimes. I think it is like these things we've been talking about.

I think right-wing movements have gained popularity when people are scared and people need that comfort and that security of the status quo that might not even have existed, but that they believe they could get back to some kind of nostalgic paradise that didn't really exist, hence make America great again as a slogan. So I think that's like part of what we're living in right now. And Christianity is really primed for that because evangelical Christianity is really built on that kind of myth of a very picture-perfect, patriarchal, heteronormative vision of what society could look like. And that's just never really been the case. It's totally a myth. But I think that's what

people are kind of grasping at right now. And that's where I kind of see it coming through in the pop culture of music and these kind of religious inflected products that are being marketed now. I think that's exactly right. I think people, in our most primal state, they want to feel safe. And if they don't feel safe, religion is a very easy structure to go, okay, I'm safe with my community, I'm safe with my little Bible, and I'm safe with my God. It's almost like my kids when they were little, always carried around a little blankie with them when they'd go to bed. And it's adorable, right? They don't need it to fall asleep, but they don't feel safe. And so they hold this thing. So to me, people want to feel safe. And so how do we

create a community and a world and an environment where everyone can feel safe? And if that safety comes with some juicy ad-9 chords. Like, hello. Can't be judged for that. Truly. One last question for the both of you. Can you please just recommend three Christian songs that, like, aren't that toxic that we can all just, like, jam out to later? Yeah, I'm truly such a noob.

I've heard, like, close to nothing. No, I can't. I don't know. I'll send you some of my old music. Actually, there's a song. song that I wrote called Alive that I actually just performed at the New York Public Library with a set of four drag queens. So we like reclaimed the song that used to be very Jesusy. And actually, I found out after I left the church that the LGBTQ community, so many people were

like, we thought that was a gay anthem. And I was like, oh, I got a lot. It was. You just didn't know it yet. Yeah, exactly. That's perfect. I'll send you that. Oh, please do. We would love to put it on one of our Instagram rails. Gorgeous. I actually just did this exercise because I made a little playlist to go along with my book. And so I was sorting through some 2000s Christian music. So my earnest recommendation is Sifian Stevens. I mean, anything is great, but I used to listen to the song, He Woke Me Up Again,

which is from his album Seven Swans, which is a very Christian album. And that used to be like, I used to just have a transcendent experience, you know, to that song. And I still do. It just says not as religiously inflected anymore. Yeah. So that's my earnest recommendation. Oh, well, whenever Sufion Stevens sings about Jesus, I like to imagine he's singing about his boyfriend. Yeah.

It's an easy. Easy sweet. Do you think of the artist Plum, P-L-U-N-B? She was like a rock artist. She was awesome. I loved her music. You should listen to Plum. And then there was an R&B artist that would talk about purity.

It was like very, very sexy talking about temptation. But like, Father help me not cross the line. Whoa. I'm going to find out. I'm going to send you that one too. Father, help me not cross the line. It's his big hand on my body. Soaking music.

Forbent fruit. Wow. That's just hotter. I know. It's actually very sexy. And she is sexy. It's a whole thing. I wasn't allowed to listen to her.

So I don't remember her name. Oh, so that you know, it's good. Yeah. You two came correct with answers to that question. Absolutely. Thank you so much for doing this interview with us. Could you each please let the listeners know where they can keep up with you and your work? Yeah, absolutely.

For sure on Instagram, Juliana Glass. And if you want to follow the work that I'm doing for women globally, this is what happens when women read. Instagram, all the places. And I'm not super online, but I'm on blue sky, I think, under my name. and my website is joelkid.com and I have a book coming out Jesusland coming out August 12th.

So exciting. Your local bookstore. Heck yeah. I'm going to go get it. Thank you both. Thank you so much, you guys. Reese, out of our three cult categories, live your life, watch your back,

and get the fuck out. do you think the cult of Christian pop music falls into? Hmm. If you call it and get the fuck out, I'm literally going to leave this room. She could tell me I was thinking about it. She could tell her I was thinking about it. I was just thinking about all the inspiring work Juliana is doing for all of these women that have been seriously harmed. Yeah.

No. It's more just like there is so much other good music out there that like part of me feels like you have no excuse. I don't like cold play. I won't be listening. I'm not saying it has to be cold play. I think I'm going to call it a watch your back because I think enough people are listening to it that clearly are not affected by it at all and don't even really know what the vibes are. I don't know. Like Benson Boone, watch your back. Yeah. I think it has to be a watcher back because even though there are, wait, no. Now I'm thinking because like the most extreme version of this is so. bad, but that's only because of evangelicalism in general in this country right now. Yeah, like, I don't know if it's necessarily worse than either of the individual cults it's comprised of, either the pop industry or... But is it? It's pretty bad. It's pretty bad. It is pretty bad. God

damn it. Well, yeah, I guess, okay, as long as I don't have to give up Sufian Stevens or Julian Baker, then I'm comfortable calling it to get the fuck out. There's a lot. There's a lot of a suffering and disempowerment going on here. Maybe you're right. And I think a lot of subpar music being pushed to the top of the charts. So true. Yeah. I think pro country needs to be helped do a higher standard.

That for sure. Okay. So it's a tentative get the fuck out, but only until we could. Steal some shit on your way. If secular pop music can just raise the stakes a little bit, then we can't comfortably get out. Can we just get a little more grand? grandiose with it. Yeah.

Let's have a little fun. Exactly. Great. Well, that's our show. Thank you so much for listening. Stick around for a new cult next week. But in the meantime, stay culty, but not too guilty. Sounds like a cult was created by Amanda Montel and edited by Jordan Moore of the podcaven.

This episode was hosted by Amanda Montpel and Reese Oliver. This episode was produced by Reese Oliver. Our managing producer is Katie Epperson. Our theme music is by Casey Cole. If you enjoyed the show, we'd really appreciate it if you could leave it five stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show a lot. And if you like this podcast, feel free to check out my book, Cultish, the Language of Fanaticism, which inspired the show. You might also enjoy my other books, The Age of Magical O overthinking, notes on Modern Irrationality, and Wordslet, a Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language.

Thanks as well to our Network Studio 71, and be sure to follow the Sounds Like a Cult cult cult on Instagram for all the discourse at Sounds like a cult pod or support us on Patreon to listen to the show ad-free at patreon.com slash sounds like a cult.